((( THE TRUTH ABOUT MASON'S CH HAMMER )))

[Officially Retired]

The Truth About
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000004_01.jpg (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4)
Mason's Ch Hammer

This is going to be a huge article. Therefore, if you read it too fast, or "gloss over it," you will do nothing but cheat yourself.

Most people are under the impression that The Mason's Ch Hammer is sired by Patrick's Bull Boy Bob out Patrick's Blitz, but it is my firm conviction that Ch Hammer was sired by Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=687).

Before I get into my theories, as well as into the facts that support them, I think it is important that you (the reader) take ~ 25 minutes of your time to listen to a recording of Pat Patrick that was made in the 1980s by Bobby Smith of AZ, Rueben's owner. Here is the Audio Tape of Pat Patrick admitting that he hung papers on Wichita's CH Blaze, falsely claiming the dog was off of "Four Bits" (Bolio) bred to Blitz, when in fact this Champion was sired by Reuben x Blitz:



http://youtu.be/RXzH2g4ottk
Recorded Phone Call of Pat Patrick admitting on tape that he hung papers on Wichita's Ch Blaze

Now then, this tape involves the discussion of many illegal activities (dog fights, money laundering, etc.), but before anyone cries "snitch," you must keep in mind that this tape was recorded nearly 30 years ago, and so the Statute of Limitations on all of these matters has long since expired, which means no one is in jeopardy by the release of this information. That said, your understanding of the truth (namely that Pat Patrick is an admitted paper-hanger and liar CAUGHT ON TAPE) is foundational for your understanding of the truth behind Ch Hammer, whom I believe was also sired by Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM out of Blitz.

To begin with, this is the confirmed pedigree of Witchita's Ch Blaze (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7428) as revealed in the tape recording above. Well, okay (you might be thinking), but what does the fact Ch Blaze was falsely-papered by Patrick have to do with the idea that Ch Hammer was also falsely-papered? That is a fair question! Well, folks, I am going to make a list of Unimpeachable FACTS that have led to the formation of my THEORY that Mason's Ch Hammer is likewise sired by Reuben x Blitz (not BBB x Blitz), which will be followed by a list of Supplemental Facts that further support my theory, and finally I will cap everything off by a list of Empirical Evidence and Expert Testimony.

Before I proceed, however, let me clarify that there is a difference between Clyde Mason (of Mason's Ch Hog fame) and THE Mason (owner of Ch Hammer), where "The Mason" was a handle used by Darren S. of California. In short, Clyde Mason is an actual person who had nothing to do with Ch Hammer, while Darren S. was a professional mason worker, hence his chosen handle of The Mason.

With this preamble out of the way, here are a multitude of UNIMPEACHABLE FACTS that surround the issue of "who is really the sire" of The Mason's Ch Hammer:



Unimpeachable Facts RE: Patrick Hanging Papers on Ch Blaze

Bobby Smith called Pat Patrick on the phone, and (in possibly the greatest con job in the history of the game) Smith pretended to be a Middle Eastern customer ... fooling Pat Patrick into believing he was going to get $10,000 for a bitch (Blitz) ... and, by tempting Patrick with greed, got Pat Patrick to confess to everything below regarding the Reuben x Blitz breeding:;
Pat Patrick admits on tape that he had Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=687) on his yard for a period of at least 1 year;
Pat Patrick admits on tape that he rolled Reuben, that he watched Reuben stop his own Bolio match dogs on his yard, that he liked the dog, and that Patrick bred to Reuben based on what he saw;
Pat Patrick admits on tape that in EVERY instance where he bred to Reuben, Patrick falsified the papers so as NOT to give Bobby Smith (or his dog Reuben) any credit for the results of these breedings;
Pat Patrick admits on tape that he falsely-papered Wichita's Ch Blaze (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7428) in particular as being off of "Four Bits" (which was a code name for the stolen Indian Bolio) when in reality Ch Blaze was sired by Reuben ROM;
Bobby Smith sent a copy of this tape to Jack Kelly, who officially revoked Indian Bolio as the sire to Ch Blaze, and Kelly changed the Champion certificate to reflect Blaze's true sire as being Reuben ROM;
Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM is a pure Hyde's Satch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1049)/Bloody Sunday (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1257)-bred dog.

Now then, these are Unimpeachable Historical Facts, the tape of which is right here provided as proof, and these fact are likewise backed up in the annals of the original Sporting Dog Journal. There is no one, of any intelligence or knowledge, who can deny these facts. So, with these preliminary facts established, let us move onto some Supplemental Facts that tie the above facts to The Mason's and how his Ch Hammer came to be, and WHY this dog is (in all probability) yet another falsely-papered son of Reuben ROM, as opposed to Bull Boy Bob as his papers reflect:



The Supplemental Facts RE: The Mason and how Ch Hammer came to be

Before The Mason bred Ch Hammer, he owned a full brother to the falsely-papered Ch Blaze above, named The Mason's Wolfman (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7429), who was also a falsely-papered Reuben x Blitz dog, and who lost 100% DG in one of The Mason's first contracted matches;
The Mason felt Wolfman was the gamest dog he had ever seen in his life at that point;
The Mason then bought Patrick's Blitz, the dam to Ch Blaze and his own now-dead Wolfman;
The Mason then took Blitz to Pat Patrick's and (on paper) bred to Bull Boy Bob ;
Both Bull Boy Bob and Reuben were "black dogs" ... but BBB was solid black ... whereas Reuben had a white blaze, which was BOTH a trademark of Reuben's ancestors as well as of his offspring;
Wichita's Ch Blaze was named for his white blaze; Ch Hammer had a white blaze; Poncho had a white blaze; no other true BBB dog ever had (or threw) a white blaze;
After The Mason made Champion with Hammer, he did not breed Hammer to his heavy Bolio/BBB bitches Speedy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=185) and Aurora (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7448), which would make much more "genetic sense"; instead The Mason took a plane and flew right over Pat Patrick's yard and BOUGHT 3 BITCHES DIRECTLY FROM RONNIE HYDE (including Hyde's Sadie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7433)), all of which were Eli/Carver bitches bred near-identical to Reuben.


Okay, so far I have set up my theory with 14 IRREFUTABLE FACTS (7 regarding Rueben being used/hidden by Patrick, and 7 regarding how/why The Mason would be interested in Reuben as well) in support of my theory that Ch Hammer is likewise really sired by Reuben. The rest of my case is going to supported by Empirical Evidence and Expert Testimony, and at the end of this presentation you can be the judge and form your own opinion.



Empirical Evidence

First of all, let us take a look at both Bull Boy Bob and Reuben ROM, and really come to terms with their physical characteristics.


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/BBB.jpg http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/RUEBEN.jpg
Bull Boy Bob ROM vs. Reuben ROM

As anyone can see, BBB is a thin, racy, terrier-like animal (very fast-looking), whereas Reuben is a thicker, slower, more methodical-looking animal. And, as you can also see, BBB took after his sire Bolio in his own physical characteristics:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/boliobob.jpg
Indian Bolio & his son Bull Boy Bob

Again, both Indian Bolio and his son Bull Boy Bob are both thin, speedy terrier-like animals, and BBB dogs in particular produce thin, speedy, terrier-like animals such as my Bandana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=225) bitch (linebred BBB):


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000225_01.jpg
Vise-Grip's Bandana

Now then, since the dispute is whether The Mason's Ch Hammer is really off of BBB as papered ... or whether he is really off of Reuben ROM as speculated ... let us now compare the physical characteristics of Bull Boy Bob ROM to Ch Hammer ... as well as Reuben ROM to Ch Hammer:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/bobhammer.jpg
Bull Boy Bob vs. Ch Hammer

vs.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/ruebenhammer.jpg
Reuben & Ch Hammer

Now then ...
Does anyone think there is EVEN THE SLIGHTEST resemblance of BBB to Ch Hammer? (I sure don't!)
And can EVERYONE see the remarkable physical resemblance of Reuben to Ch Hammer? (I sure can!)

To me, it is pretty much a slam-dunk match of Reuben and his physical characteristics aligning perfectly with Ch Hammer and his physical characteristics. Now how about their most famous offspring? By far the most famous offspring of Reuben ROM was Ch Blaze (who was a white-blaze clone of Hammer) as well as Gr Ch Badger (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4066) who was a clone of Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2) ... who was the most famous offspring of Ch Hammer!! In fact, let us take a look at the physical resemblance of Smith & Williams' Gr Ch Badger to my own Vise-Grip's Poncho:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/chhammer/badger.jpg
Smith & Williams' Gr Ch Badger ROM
(the most famous son of Reuben ROM)

vs.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000002_02.jpg
Vise-Grip's Poncho ROM
(the most famous son of Ch Hammer)

Again, it is another slam dunk IMO. The most famous son of Rueben ROM (Gr Ch Badger) is virtually an identical twin to the most famous son of Ch Hammer (Poncho). EMPIRICAL FACTS: That "buckskin/white blaze" look is the stamp of the Reuben dogs, it is the stamp of the Badger dogs, and it is the stamp of my Poncho dogs ... and yet it is FOUND NOWHERE in any (true) line of Bull Boy Bob dogs. Now then, let us consider some Expert Testimonials:



Expert Testimony
Moving forward, in addition to the Unimpeachable Facts concerning Patrick's use of Reuben ROM as a stud (and his recorded confession of concealing this fact), in addition to the Supplemental Facts of The Mason owning a DG brother to Ch Blaze (and then buying his mother from Pat, and bringing her back to him for a breeding) ... and then after the produced dog Ch Hammer becomes Champion The Mason buys three Ronnie-Hyde-bred bitches ALL OF WHICH were bred like Reuben ... and in addition to the fact that Reuben, Ch Hammer, Poncho, and Badger are ALL physically nearly-identical ... I offer the following Expert Testimony:


TFX:
My friend and long-time California resident (and 25+ year dogman) TFX, is an expert on the Bobby Smith line of dogs. He actually started out in the game as a kennel boy for Bobby Smith, so he knows his Reuben/Badger dogs like the back of his hand, and he was the one who first put the idea into my head that Ch Hammer was a Reuben dog, not a BBB dog. All he had to do is take one look at Poncho, when I sent him some photos of my dog, to know in his bones that Poncho took after this family. The foundation of his own family (Ch Costello (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2071)) carries a decent amount of Reuben blood in it.

Northern Express:
My friend and long-time Dogman, Northern Express, is another expert on the Bobby Smith line of dogs, owning both multiple specimens of that line, as well as my own. He has made Champion with Smith-bred dogs such as Ch Juantez (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7449) (whom he said was an indistinguishable clone of Poncho), as well as with my own Poncho dogs, such as Ch Red Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=5378) and Ch Shiver (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7455). This more than 25-year dogman is also 100% convinced that Ch Hammer is a son of Reuben, not Bull Boy Bob.

The Milkman:
Longtime dogman and breeder of Bolio dogs, Randy Goodman, once called me (when he had Diamond Girl (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=679) on his yard) to say, "This is the thickest-boned Bolio dog I have ever seen," and likewise corroborated his gut feeling that she was "different" from all of the other Bolio dogs he was used to.

Pat Patrick & Emily Dennis:
Patrick and Emily have hated me for years, ever since I got Poncho. After I saw what Poncho could do, and how superior he was to every other "Bolio" dog I had ever seen, I stopped breeding to the Patrick's dogs and started building my own bloodline around Poncho. Other than the fact Poncho out-produced every Patrick dog that has ever been born in the last 25 years, there is the additional fact that, because of their jealousy of Poncho, the Patricks (on their own website) used to say, [B]"Poncho is not a 'real' Bolio dog." Now then, if Poncho's sire Ch Hammer was a true son of BBB, how could Poncho "not" be a Bolio dog ... UNLESS, in their bones, Pat Patrick and Emily KNEW Poncho's daddy, Ch Hammer, was really off of Reuben ROM? That is the only possible justification for calling Poncho's "Bolio blood" into question, is if the Patricks knew that Ch Hammer was really off of Reuben ROM.

CA Jack:
And then there is myself, the man who has worked with nothing but "Bolio" dogs and "Hammer" dogs for nearly 25 years also. From the moment I saw him, rolled him (and his sister), I know Poncho was totally different in class and quality from every other "Bolio"-type dog I had ever owned. The fact is, my two most important foundation dogs, Poncho and Coca Cola, were both allegedly out of two different sons of Bull Boy Bob owned by The Mason (Ch Hammer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4) and Bolio Jr. (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=183)). And, even though (at the time I made the breeding) I was initially unaware that Ch Hammer was falsely-papered, all through my ownership experience I have considered my Ch Hammer dogs to be totally different (in type and in traits) from my Bolio Jr. dogs. I have considered each to be an "outcross" to the other, even before I realized WHY this was so, namely that Hammer wasn't really off of BBB. And, of course, after I learned more about the history of these dogs, it all made perfect sense to me. But I can tell you that pure Hammer dogs are totally different from every other kind of "Bolio" or "BBB" dog on the planet ... they are simply gamer, tougher, and smarter ... while the true BBB dogs are faster and more intense ... and when COMBINED I get "The Whole Deal" :D

Well, that just about wraps-up my presentation here. At the end of the day, I think that this is Ch Hammer's True Pedigree (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7431), and thus I think that this is Poncho's True Pedigree (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7432). I have not "officially" changed these pedigrees on my database, because this is a theory of mine and not a fact. Even though I have presented a MOUNTAIN of facts in support of my theory, to this date both Pat Patrick and The Mason deny that Hammer is off of Reuben, so I will leave Hammer's (and Poncho's) pedigrees alone.



Conclusion
However, one dog whose pedigree I HAVE officially changed here on this database is that of Patrick's Tessy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=684), who was the littermate to Ch Blaze and Wolfman, and therefore is NOT off of Indian Bolio ("Four Bits"), and is absolutely really off of Reuben ROM. One guy came here and tried to "change her pedigree back to Bolio," but DO NOT do so because the truth of her breeding is absolutely reflected in the Reuben entry. The most notable dogs that Tessy's changed pedigree is going to reflect are Patrick's Blockhead and Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs, whose most notable offspring are Invicto (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3707) and Rick Rude (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1866). (And, interestingly enough, the knowledgeable reader will also note that both Rick Rude and Invicto lines are likewise noted for having/throwing that trademark white blaze, which they both got from Reuben's daughter Tessy, the littermate to Ch Blaze ;) ).



Final Note
Before I go, there is one other very important dog that is believed to be off of Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM, by those dogmen who are "in the know," and that is Thrift's Ch Bobby Jr (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7465). Ch Bobby Jr. was a rough-ass, cobby bulldog, with a body type totally unlike a true BBB/Bolio dog. Bobby was thick and durable like a Reuben-type bulldog, and if the suspicion of his pedigree is correct, and he is really off of Reuben, this would also help to explain the truth behind the pedigree and the mouth/performance of one of history's all-time-great bitches, Abraham's Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7466).

In closing, I hope you have enjoyed the history behind this article, which would make Reuben a 6-point ROM and Bull Boy Bob not an ROM at all. Please keep in mind that I have no axe to grind, as I love my BBB-bred Coca Cola dogs in the same fashion that I love my Reuben-bred Poncho/Ch Hammer dogs. But I have ALWAYS known they are NOT anything like each other in traits, and for close to 10 years now, I have also known they are not really anything like each other in pedigree ... and I hope that this extensive article helps you explain why ;)

YIS,

~ CA Jack

PS: If you read this too fast, or "glossed over" it, you have done nothing but cheat yourself.

[AlienInvasion]

Wow, super interesting, well written, insightful article---definitely forces you to consider the facts as you present them.
Thanks for writing this.

[Officially Retired]

Thank you very much & glad you enjoyed the read :)

Jack

[sam i am]

Good read Jack this really gets one to thinking. I dont work with this line of dogs but the info is priceless all the same. You have built a case thats hard to deny.

[Officially Retired]

Glad you enjoyed it :D

I often have people ask me "why" my dogs are different from the the typical Bolio dogs, and that basically explains why.

I know it is a lot to digest, but there is just no other way to paint the full picture than to paint it 8)

Cheers,

Jack

[skipper]

Good read Jack. I strongly believe all of us have dogs with peds that aren't completely correct. This is what I meant in a post earlier about papers. The honesty of the breeder is all that matters. Papers are probably hung more than most think.

[Hushman]

Good stuff Jack.i really enjoyed that read.thnx

[Officially Retired]

Good read Jack. I strongly believe all of us have dogs with peds that aren't completely correct. This is what I meant in a post earlier about papers. The honesty of the breeder is all that matters. Papers are probably hung more than most think.

I agree with you: the honesty of the breeder is the only thing that matters.

And, while I do believe that there are "skeletons" in virtually every pedigree, at some point, it becomes increasingly-important to understand the truth based on how much focus is being put on the falsely-papered animal.

In other words, if the great-great-great grandsire of your pup was falsely-papered, it really won't matter much at that point. However, if the entire foundation to your yard is based on a falsely-papered animal, it might well affect your ability to make wise breeding choices by knowing the truth of what is behind your stock, genetically.

For me it didn't matter too much, because Poncho was such a good producer, I just focused on him and everything turned out okay. Still, I might have made even better choices in many of my earlier breedings, had I dumped most of that so-so Bolio blood I had and focused on better overall animals, more closely-related to Ch Hammer. Not saying I didn't get some great dogs out of Poncho with the choices I made, because I did, but that is only because Poncho was 'carrying' most of the bitches he got bred to. I didn't understand the truth of his breeding when I was first starting out. All I knew is that Poncho and Missy were head-n-shoulders better than the other "Bolio" blood I had worked with up to that point.

Fortunately, because Poncho was so prepotent, and because I focused on him, his traits quickly dominated my yard and my gene pool.




Good stuff Jack.i really enjoyed that read.thnx

Glad to hear it :)

Jack

[scary]

Good stuff jack! Wow mr.smith definitely got what he wanted out of pat patrick!

[Officially Retired]

Agreed.

As I mentioned, Smith's portrayal of himself as "Joey Kasim" ... offering Pat Patrick $10,000 for Blitz to get Patrick to spill the beans ... is arguably the greatest con job in the history of the sport :lol:

Jack

[lbd]

Excellent read Jack. Thanks

[TFX]

Where to begin!? Bobby Smith and I had a close, but also a rocky relationship. He was an interesting man in many ways. The last time he threatened to kill me (yes there were more than one), he told me “write about me when I am dead”, because I had posted some rather benign stories about my experiences with the bloodline on an internet forum. Well, Bobby died a few weeks ago. I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, so we will make this less about Bobby, and more about the dogs. However, you cannot separate the man from some of the stories about the dogs, and certainly he played a big role in helping me to establish the stock that I still have over 22 years later. Bobby told some of his own dog stories through his buddy T.L. Williams' publications over the years. Later on, he would completely wig out about mere pedigrees of his dogs that were posted on the internet. Bobby was a temperamental fellow. He had been in a pretty bad car accident in the late 80’s and was a chronic pain patient, and that hindered his ability to work, and in my estimation sometimes to act rationally. He had been on trial for a murder in Chicago in the early 1980's that he eventually was acquitted of. There was most definitely a dark side to the man. There also a very sensitive side. Those who knew him well watched him care for his “Grammy” for several years in his own home until she passed away, giving her very compassionate care and saving her from the fate of a nursing home. Bobby was a country music singer and songwriter in the 1970's and 1980's with a couple of albums to his credit. If Bobby would have looked like George Strait he sure could have made it big, because he could sing every bit as good as George could. Unfortunately, there was not a lot of room in Nashville for great singers who weighed in over 350 lbs. I thought he was a real good songwriter too. One of the things we shared a deep passion for besides the bulldogs, was country music. We were both on the level with the music, and between that and the bulldogs, it bonded us in a unique way.

I began fooling with stock that had Bobby's breeding behind in it 1989 after having dogs since 1986. In 1990, we began a friendship via telephone through a mutual friend, and Bobby invited me down to see the place later that year. As a young dogman trying to bust into the game, Bobby knew just how to dazzle a youngster, including picking and signing original songs, great food, and he even sent me home with a family bred bitch that I named Cucamonga’s Spotea and who would become my foundation female. I began regular trips from Southern California to Tucson all through the year 1991 for various dog business, including my first couple of shows. When he came to California for dog business, he would invite me to be there. I won my first one down at Mr. Leo Bice’s place on a show that Bobby had arranged and refereed. He then hooked me into Buffalo, who was an up and coming fellow a few years older than me. Buffalo had several wins with sons of Gr. Ch. Badger and Ch. Fox. If you listened to the taped conversation with Patrick that Jack posted, you know he could pull a con. He told me I could beat this guy with my dog, that Buffalo was getting too cocky with all of his recent wins, and he was so sure that I was going to win that he was going to bet on my dog. For a 22 year old working as a landscaper, the $5000 purse was big money for me. Smith supposedly took a large portion of the bet. As my dog went to laying down about the 2:15 mark after pummeling the other entry nonstop, I went to call him into a turn, and Smith who was acting as referee stopped me from it. It was a fishy deal, but with me figuring that he had a sizeable amount of the purse, I thought he was on my side. He was the certainly the veteran dogman, and so I foolishly left my dog down and stopped calling him into a turn. Eventually my entry went to sleep in holds, and when he woke up he got up on his feet and did turn in the process. Finally, a handle! He was not hurt, but he was utterly exhausted and rather disoriented. When I handled him, I didn’t shake him up much, and he truly didn’t know he was released. When I shouted at him finally about the 4-5 count, he wobbled over and was counted out, taking a hold at the 11 count at 2:38. Bobby declared the other entry the winner, as it was a no scratch to win contest. “We” were out the money. He paid me a genuine compliment that night pitside that meant a lot then, and still does now. He simply called me by name with a lot of expression and admiration in his voice and said “you are a DOGman, YOU are a dogman”.

A few weeks later, he called up and asked me if I would come down and live with Buffalo at the Smith & Walton Kennel and be a caretaker and conditioner of about 55 dogs. My life’s ambition since I was 16 years old reading Stratton books was to be a dogman, and here was my chance to feed and breed multiple Champions, ROM dogs, and assess all of their progeny, and show some of them. It was an opportunity that I jumped at, so I moved down in January 1992. Buffalo and I, who had only been casual acquaintances with each other to that point, became the best of friends relatively quickly. While living there, we pieced together the fact that Bobby had bet on both of our dogs in our show the previous fall, and he stood to profit handsomely if I lost. His encouragement for me to “leave the dog down” was his last attempt to have the dog fade and him not have to come up with money that he didn’t have. It was a green handler’s mistake that I will always regret. I think in some way his inviting me down to live there was his way to repent for cheating me. Then again, maybe it was just his way of having 2 dumb kids live there, feed, scoop, pay for the dog food and also pay rent. He was sure a smooth operator! When Buffalo and I were looking to attend Fat Bill’s Pig Pickin in 1992, and were set up to go halves on some Boomerang stock from Ronnie Duhon to blend with the Reuben/Bad Billy blood, he ended up throwing Buffalo out of the place. It was starting to seem as if he wanted to hold us down in the dogs.

That background sets the stage somewhat, for some in house insights into the controversy surrounding CH Hammer. If you will look at the top of the article Jack posted, the first image is the Sporting Dog Journal, and you will notice the year it was published was 1992. I had just moved down there a few weeks before this issue hit our mailbox. When it did, Bobby was in an absolute tirade, because it had only been a few years since the whole debacle with Ch. Blaze, and now here was another obvious Reuben son. I was there when he called up the Mason and accused him of lying about it. It was my understanding at the time that Bobby and the Mason had some previous discussions about it, and he swore he personally was there when the breeding was made to Bull Boy Bob. Bobby was pacified, until Jack Kelly decided to put his photo on the cover! Nobody in the S&W camp knew what Ch. Hammer looked like up until that point. Gentleman’s Choice was hanging around our crowd, and he and Mexican Pete were going to make the breeding that produced the pair that would later become the parents of Avila’s Ouch! dog. GC was told that he wasn’t breeding to a Bolio dog, that he was breeding to a Reuben dog. He didn’t care, and the breeding was made. When I returned back to California in 1993, I was very tempted to breed my Spotea bitch to Ch Hammer. In hindsight, I sure wish that I would have done so, controversial pedigree notwithstanding.

I would also like to add at this point, that when Pat made breedings with Reuben, he was still living in New Mexico. It was my understanding that Rowdy Kennels definitely had some of the known Reuben dogs, and if memory serves me correctly Pat may have even stuck the dog on their yard for a period of time. Anyhow, I know that Rowdy Kennels had several winners sired by Reuben, and I believe one was a 4X winner which would have given Reuben another ROM point. The Reuben dogs had a type to them. Personally, I always focused my attention more the Bad Billy direction to preserve it. Nonetheless, my dogs had, and still have Reuben blood in them. Kloos and I owned the last living daughter of Reuben, and bred her to her half brother Ch.Fox.

Incidentally, I also agree with Jack that CH Bobby is a Reuben son. Bobby had discussed this suspicion with Joe Abraham back when Queen of Hearts was on the trail. There is so much more to add, but let me cut it as short as I can by saying that Jack and I came to the conclusion at least 10 years ago that our dogs are probably genetically similar. Regarding style, he has selected differently, but many of the Smith & Walton dogs were known as finishers. Consequently, many Poncho and Silverback bred dogs are finishers. Jack and I both boast of smart, versatile, all purpose, game dogs that are useful. They don’t hit everything that moves. Smith & Walton’s Blake (2XW) was one of the best finishing dogs I ever saw. I conditioned him for his first which was a forfeit. He was a dog that would play with puppies. I have a litter of 4, 4 month olds now. Their dam runs loose with the sire on chain, and the pups can be cut loose to play with them. There are too many similarities in the Hammer and Smith & Walton dogs physically and temperamentally, and a logical explanation based on the material facts to not have at least reasonable doubts on Ch. Hammer’s pedigree. At the same time, there are virtually no similarities to the Bull Boy Bob dogs. In closing, I will tease you with 2 photos. I have more coming, but does this look like a Poncho pup? This are straight off of my linebred stock.The traits jump around, but I still get this type on occasion. I know where it comes from, and now so do you.


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/DSCN0342.jpg http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/BattersPup.jpg

[skipper]

I agree with you: the honesty of the breeder is the only thing that matters.

And, while I do believe that there are "skeletons" in virtually every pedigree, at some point, it becomes increasingly-important to understand the truth based on how much focus is being put on the falsely-papered animal.

In other words, if the great-great-great grandsire of your pup was falsely-papered, it really won't matter much at that point. However, if the entire foundation to your yard is based on a falsely-papered animal, it might well affect your ability to make wise breeding choices by knowing the truth of what is behind your stock, genetically.

For me it didn't matter too much, because Poncho was such a good producer, I just focused on him and everything turned out okay. Still, I might have made even better choices in many of my earlier breedings, had I dumped most of that so-so Bolio blood I had and focused on better overall animals, more closely-related to Ch Hammer. Not saying I didn't get some great dogs out of Poncho with the choices I made, because I did, but that is only because Poncho was 'carrying' most of the bitches he got bred to. I didn't understand the truth of his breeding when I was first starting out. All I knew is that Poncho and Missy were head-n-shoulders better than the other "Bolio" blood I had worked with up to that point.

Fortunately, because Poncho was so prepotent, and because I focused on him, his traits quickly dominated my yard and my gene pool.





Glad to hear it :)

Jack

I agree. Some dog 4-5 generation doesn't matter at all. I don't bother those dogs that far back unless they are the ones the dogs I feed are bred around. And that's where you hit then nail. Your dogs are linebred on CH hammer. With a different sire from another bloodline this makes a huge difference. However I like the "new" ped better, My experience with Bolio blood is that it's a good and all around decent blood. When crossed to the Eli/carver crosses it becomes great. Then building your line on that great cross can't go wrong. As you sad, it's 2 bad you didn't get to know this earlier. But you have done great anyways. Remember this is an observation from my experience with Bolio blood. Not a generalization. Some of the most devastating dogs I've seen came from Bolio-Eli/Carver crosses.

[skipper]

Great read TFX. Thnx for sharing.

[gabbagabbahey]

Very interesting read by Jack & TFX. Thank you for sharing your thoughts & also the recording.
It was not nice to read on the ways of PP & if a man can do this once,then who is to say how many times he has done similar.

[Officially Retired]

That was a great read, TFX, especially being "hammered-out" from a cell phone (pardon the pun) :)

Also, don't feel bad about falling for "the Smith con" when you were a begging dogman, as Lineman told me Bobby Smith looked like Santa Claus and constantly conned young aspiring dogmen out of their money :mrgreen:

Lineman remembered in particular watching another young dogman go into Bobby, beat Bobby's dog flat out in the pit, and then Bobby proceeded to explain to the young dogman how his dog "was really a cur" ... got the guy to shoot his winning dog ... and go buy a pair of "game dogs" from Bobby at a sizeable price ... and the young guy fell for it :lol: :embarrassed:

Anyway, I agree with the similar temperament traits of our respective stock. In fact, the radical difference in temperament between Poncho and Missy (and heavy Bolio dogs like Coca Cola and Squirrel) are what led me (in my mind) to consider them TOTAL OUTCROSSES from each other, IN TRAITS, even before I understood "why" they were so different in temperament and "type." In short, the Bolio dogs are "terrier-like" and the Hammer dogs are "bulldog-like," and I have always (and essentially) "re-shuffled the deck" of the American Pit Bull Terrier, trying to get that perfect mix of speed/athleticism married to rugged grit, savvy, and durability.

Another phenomenon that I have noticed is that heavy Bolio dogs "act before they think" ... whereas heavy Hammer dogs "think before they act" ... which is WHY Hammer dogs can get along so well with other animals, because they keep their cool better. In keeping with this, it is funny how you mentioned that your stud runs loose with the two bitches be bred to create your pups, because just a few days ago Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152) was playing with his son and daughter (Amazon & Beowulf), and all of them were running loose in the yard with Dirty Hammer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2744) and Little D (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2748), all 3 of which are among the heaviest Ch Hammer dogs on the planet ;)

Also, interesting thoughts on finish. Poncho himself "would finish," but not at the level of (say) Silverback where he could do it in one hold. Poncho was more methodical about it and nowhere near as dramatic. However, Poncho had other traits Silverback does not have. Regarding Silverback in particular, although he is heavy Ch Hammer, it is my belief that his "dramatic traits" obtain from the bottom side of Mexican Pete's 410 (aka Schaeffer's Godzuki), via the Ted Jessop blood, as I relayed in this article (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?145) (much of which information I gleaned from our mutual friend Northern Express).

Cheers & thank you for the insight and contribution,

Jack

EDIT: I might also add that the Pitfall (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4353) blood in Silverback is a tad similar to the Bad Billy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2082) blood :idea:

[Officially Retired]

I agree. Some dog 4-5 generation doesn't matter at all. I don't bother those dogs that far back unless they are the ones the dogs I feed are bred around. And that's where you hit then nail. Your dogs are linebred on CH hammer. With a different sire from another bloodline this makes a huge difference. However I like the "new" ped better, My experience with Bolio blood is that it's a good and all around decent blood. When crossed to the Eli/carver crosses it becomes great. Then building your line on that great cross can't go wrong. As you sad, it's 2 bad you didn't get to know this earlier. But you have done great anyways. Remember this is an observation from my experience with Bolio blood. Not a generalization. Some of the most devastating dogs I've seen came from Bolio-Eli/Carver crosses.

Very good post!


.

[Officially Retired]

Very interesting read by Jack & TFX. Thank you for sharing your thoughts & also the recording.
It was not nice to read on the ways of PP & if a man can do this once,then who is to say how many times he has done similar.


I have more recordings, actually, regarding the true pedigrees of Airplane, Star Man's Ch Chewy, STP's Gr Ch Buck, and Cheryl Tiegs ... the accurate pedigrees for which are (or will be) reflected in this database.

Jack

[jambet]

Jack, or should I say counselor, I think you have proven your case:). Great read Jack, I enjoyed every word of it.

[Officially Retired]

Well, my last title as a working stiff "was" Litigation Specialist ;)

Glad you enjoyed!

[TFX]

This is a son of Blake I owned, and who is buried out here. Northern Express sent me this dog when he was 12, and I lost him when he was 13 never getting pups. A 25% Reuben dog, he exemplifies the kind of thickness and coloration you also see in Jack's line such as in the Diamond Girl segment of the family. One could argue that "thickness" comes from the Hollingsworth influence, but that is a rangier thickness than these type of dogs. You will notice the same exact posture in this dog's back as you see in the Reuben photo and the Ch Hammer photo.http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/Dogs345.jpg He is bred like this:

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7593

[skipper]

Nice dog

[TFX]

I suppose the other thing I should mention about the taped conversation you heard here is that on Sunday "Joey Kasim" did in fact meet the nice man Mr. Patrick at the airport. The reason Bobby chose the airport is that he knew he couldn't take a gun there and kill the nice man Mr. Patrick. So, when Pat went into the bathroom at the airport waiting for Joey, Bobby followed him in and assaulted him. However, Pat was a pretty fit guy and as the story goes, Pat actually put a little bit of hurt on Bobby and got the best of it. From what Bobby told me he felt vindicated, and Reuben got the ROM point he rightly deserved. There were previous conversations to this one also where he groomed Patrick into this crazy $10,000 deal, but this tape is the culmination of the deal, and of course the admission of the true breeding of Ch. Blaze.

[TFX]

One more thing I wish to point out is in the tape, Pat is about to open up to Joey about "another dog" as a breeding possibility, presumably a Reuben dog since that was the substance of the conversation at that point.Then Pat kind of backpedals and says in effect "no reason to complicate things further". Could the other dog be Ch Hammer? I would have loved it if Joey quit his fast talking and really got him to open up further, because he was just about to say something else important.

[Officially Retired]

Exactly. I was hoping he would delve further into the other breedings involving Reuben.

I actually thought it was going to involve Ch Bobby Jr., though, as Hammer was a few years younger.

[STONEWALL]

WOW!

I bred my homebred daughter of Patrick's Homer to Patrick's Blockhead, turned out that he was sterile. I bred her the followig heat to Blockhead's littermate Patrick's Handsome. I bred to them for a few reasons. I liked their sire, El Dos Bits Cortro (a.k.a. Little Juan). I was familiar with some of his offspring before Pat bought him back. That is one of the reasons why I chose Patrick's Homer as a stud, along with the accomplishments of Homer's daughter CH. Trixie. I also liked the GR.CH. Boomerang blood in the pedigree of Handsome. Most of the dogs from Handsome X Battledora resembled CH. Hammer. Not that it matters because I got some really good bulldogs in that litter, Jack how do you know Tessy and CH. Hammer were littermates? I thought they were half siblings through Patrick's Blitz. Handsome didn't look like the typical Patrick dog. I thought it was do to the high percentage of Carver blood in him. Lol Which ever is Tessy's pedigree it is still a high percentage of Carver blood. I just know know that they look different from typical BBB / Red Baby dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Hi Stonewall,

Ch Hammer and Tessy were not littermates.

Tessy was the littermate to Wichita's Ch Blaze, the dog who was unimpeachably off of Reuben ROM :)

There simply was never a "Bolio x Blitz" breeding ... it was a Reuben x Blitz breeding, as the tape reflects, ergo Tessy's ADBA papers are simply wrong.

And you had the same gut feeling I had, "the Handsome dogs just look different from the typical BBB dogs," and now you know why ;)

Cheers,

Jack

[TFX]

Stonewall, I may have talked to you in the past. If you still run that Homer blood, I have 2 straws off of the Homer III (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2558) dog. I would love to see it bred to the Battledora stuff. Message me if you are interested.

[Officially Retired]

I took the liberty to add the link :)

[TFX]

Thanks. And as you see, when I blended this little dog with our core blood, it has a splash of what I believe to be common Reuben blood through the Bobby Jr. stuff.

[FrostyPaws]

I'd like to say that's some of the best reading I've done in a long time. Thanks you two.

[Officially Retired]

Well, glad you enjoyed it, good sir.

It's been awhile since I wanted to tell the whole story, so I am glad some folks enjoyed it.

Cheers,

Jack

[TFX]

Regarding Reuben's match career, he was a 1XW and 1XL. Now, Bobby always told me that he was a deep game dog, and that when he lost he rolled end over end to get to the other dog and just didn't make the count. I used to attend a chicken pit over near Marana every other weekend for derbies with Carl Clark and Lars Larson , who were both good dogmen in their own right, and Patrick bloodline devotees for the most part. Lars told me once "Bobby sure has done alright with that Reuben stock, not bad for an old cur dog". Lars was the referee for the loss Reuben had, and I asked him what he meant by cur dog. He told me he made a lot of scratches but he was counted out and quit. This is a classic example of how some dogmen view things. I left it alone with Lars but talked to Bobby about it later, and of course he was really upset. I think Lars didn't distinguish very well between couldn't and wouldn't when he tagged Reuben with the cur label. Bobby was a man who would not look at some bitches, (which I didn't agree with in general when I was active in the dogs) but he most assuredly wouldn't breed to a cur male. I have every reason to believe that Reuben was a pretty deep game dog. He was severely undershot, but very rarely did we get stufff from the bloodline that was too far undershot, even when inbred. I liked the Bad Billy type of stuff better, but the Billy and Reuben blood blended very well together. I believe Reuben was a super prepotent dog, and many of his offspring were also prepotent.

In the 2003 time frame when we were still talking some, Bobby told me that his stuff was still game but weak, that they often would not survive afterwards. I didn't know it at the time, but he obtained a daughter of my Ch. Costello to blend with his stuff. He did tell me he had a Gr Ch Shep bred male, which carried some of his own stuff down from Tina and Woodrow. This was his attempt at putting vigor back into the line. This breeding to the Costello daughter was an interesting compliment, as Ch. Costello won his 3rd over none other than Bobby Smith in 1:46. There was a comment made to me afterwards "at least we killed him". Well, one of the hallmarks of the Costello dog and his offspring was durability. After 7 critical days, he was back on chain in good spirits, thanks to the expertise of S&S Combine. After he survived, Bobby was endlessly trying to put stink on the Ch Costello dog, so to find out that he was breeding our Costello stuff into his stock was really the ultimate compliment.

I previously gave T.P. of SW&P (Bobby's partner) Ch Costello's brother Hosea. They won with him in something like 1:48, and then lost to the Ch Chance dog with him in 1:52. Fanciers who were present that I talked to said the other handler really freaked the Hosea dog out by banging dust in his face off the carpet, making wild noises, and pretty much all manner of unsportsmanlike conduct. The Ch Peterbilt blood behind Cos and Hosea was a little skitzoid, and Hosea got a little bit of that trait on top of being raised with little socialization after I returned to California. Bobby was fit to be tied I heard about the other handler's antics, but what was done was done. Hosea was bred to a bitch from my good friend Northern Express, and that in turn produced a bitch called Peanut. Peanut then was bred to Bobby's linebred Gr Ch Shep dog named Mankind to produce a great dog named Ch Chomper.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7599
He also had a very game brother who lost in 1:42.

I sometimes lament not keeping this old blood "pure" when I certainly had the chance to do so. On the other hand, the pure stuff just was not as consistently game as the dogs I have today down from the family with my own cross and judicious selection. It was always my contention that several generations of cold and unchecked bitches hurt the family somewhat. The best remedy I could think of was to put a brutal, winning bitch into the mix who had an even better sister , a solid dam, a winning granddam, and a winning great granddam. This was a string of prepotent, game bitches from the Chinaman and Hollingsworth families, then bred to one of Ronald Boyles' best sires. So while my dogs today are not "pure" S&W anymore than Jack's dogs are not "pure" Hollingsworth, my dogs are damn sure better than the pure stuff ever was. Nevertheless, I still have a soft, nostalgic spot for the of the old core blood I started with, and forever will.

[skipper]

Again, great read! Thnx

[inkdogg]

Very interesting read...:appl:

[dtakennels]

Well looks like I have some peds to change......

[OGDOGG]

That is ...... up. Never thought I would end up with a totally different line of dogs from last week. I always thought Ch Hammer's stance looked different from a Bolio dog's. Oh well, can't do anything about it, might as well move on and try to make the best of what I already have.

[Officially Retired]

Look at it as a Godsend.

Even though I didn't know the truth at the time, the fact is had I not bred to Ch Hammer I would have missed out on the singlemost important breeding I ever made ... because only after I made that breeding, and linebred on the dogs that it produced, did my dogs achieve World Class Ability.

As with poker, in the genetic game of cards sometimes an unexpected "wildcard" is what it takes to win you the money ;)

Cheers,

Jack

[dtakennels]

? on Smith & Williams' Reuben ROM.....his father and mother are both Cox....Is that George Cox......

[Officially Retired]

Good question, I am not sure.

[OGDOGG]

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pictures/161020.jpg (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=161020)Now that I've gone back and took a closer look at this litter's pedigree, it's not so bad after all. I like the way Ch Blonka dame's pedigree is put together and her sire is not so bad either. :cheers:

[TFX]

No, Bob Cox, as in Peeks & Cox' CH Sluggo. Bob Cox is also the man from whom Bobby and Skeet originally purchased CH Bad Billy.

[TFX]

I told you folks that Gentleman's Choice was involved with both the S&W dogs and breeding to CH Hammer simultaneously. The following pedigree is a result of him blending those 2 families of dogs which are in fact one. In essence, when you consider the true breeding behind CH Hammer, this is a 3/8ths Reuben bred dog. Also, be sure to click on the pedigree of the sire Bumper for a nice black and white photo. This exhibits the head shape and body type that was typical of these dogs without the CH Bad Billy blood infused.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7618

[TFX]

Here is a dog Kloos and I bred from the family in 1991, these were 50% Reuben dogs. Sometimes the traits took after the Heinzl blood in the pedigree, thus the brindle of CH Fox and this deadgame son of his Mad Sam. This principle is something I continue to emphasize over and over. Some of the straightest dogs that carry an ancestor's traits may have relatively little of the blood, and dogs with deep breeding on a certain dog may not have many of the traits whatsoever.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2562

[TFX]

CH Tuko was a classic CH Bad Billy-Reuben dog. Many, many of the dogs from he family had this look minus the ear crop.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7623

[SGC]

Excellent read! Many thanks to both Jack and TFX for taking the time to write all this out.

[FrostyPaws]

TFX, I have a question. Do you have any idea where I can get a couple of collars similar to the one that Bumper is wearing in that picture? I've searched and searched for some collars THAT wide, and everything I find comes up miserably short in quality.

[TFX]

Frosty,

I think you would have to make something like that. In my estimation, that thing is way too wide for working a dog. I like a 2" collar with a sheepskin fleece cover for working a dog, ala Don Mayfield. I always used one of those seatbelt covers over the collars and they work real fine.

[Officially Retired]

Great stories and rundown, TFX, sorry I haven't been online much to comment.

I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of converting all of your pedigrees to this database :)

Cheers,

Jack

PS: As we have talked about, it would have been great to blend some of these core Reuben/Bad Billy-type dogs with Poncho and Missy (which are essentially Reuben/Hammer/Hollingsworth-type dogs). I think the Hollingsworth blood ads a certain rugged-durability that few other lines can match, which is also behind your Roto bitch.

[tasoschatz]

http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg128/TASOSCHATZ/atcollar2.jpg
speaking about Mayfield collars, the above photo is from the guy known as gringopistolero in pitbull forums, student of Mayfield. The collar was given to him by his mentor.

[Officially Retired]

This is now getting to be way off-subject, but that really is a handsome collar.

[TFX]

Great stories and rundown, TFX, sorry I haven't been online much to comment.

I hope you don't mind, but I took the liberty of converting all of your pedigrees to this database :)

Much thanks!

[Dogman]

Are the Reuben dogs known to be stubborn barkers?

[Officially Retired]

By God, some of them are!

Most of my stubborn barkers are actually my smartest and most-loyal dogs ... who only want to be in the house ... and are absolutely wonderful when they're the center of attention ... but are incredible pains in the ass when they're on a chain.

Others are rock-calm, period.

Jack

[TFX]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/PB-Copy.jpg

This is Smith & Walton's PB, who is the maternal grandsire to my CH Costello dog, and a direct son of Reuben to Kudo. Those of you who are familiar with Jack's line look at this dog who was born about 1986, and compare him to the CH Miagi dog. There is just a lot of similarity in them, a certain look that is very unique.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pictures/105945.jpg

[Ez Country]

Wow never knew you were there to breed the dogs that produced Ch Shiver, and she is what % Poncho? I came up with 31.25% maybe my math is off. Congrats on YOUR dog CH Shiver

[TFX]

I have nothing to do with the CH Shiver bitch.

[Officially Retired]

Wow never knew you were there to breed the dogs that produced Ch Shiver, and she is what % Poncho? I came up with 31.25% maybe my math is off. Congrats on YOUR dog CH Shiver


Hello there.

I am curious to know what, exactly, prompted this outburst?

I can't see where anyone insinuated having anything to do with Shiver's breeding here.

Let's see if we can keep things friendly :)

Jack

[Ez Country]

"as well as with my own Poncho dogs, such as Ch Red Bull and Ch Shiver."

Didn't intend to come off so rough. I will keep it friendly. I wouldn't consider a dog my own that I had no part in the selection process.

[Officially Retired]

I understand now.

I was thinking about Ch Red Bull, not Ch Shiver specifically. I totally agree that I had nothing to do with the selection process that created Ch Shiver. She just happened to be owned by the same guy who is friends with both TFX and myself, and is linebred off of heavy Poncho dogs. The point I guess had to do with the blood, and I certainly wasn't trying to take credit from you.

Jack

[Ez Country]

Cool, I am with you guys on the Rueben thing, I will try and get a picture of Price put up here for you he is 75% Chase and looks like a Carver dog to me. As for CH Shiver one of the best I have ever seen and she was just an 11 month old pup.

[Officially Retired]

Cool, I am with you guys on the Rueben thing, I will try and get a picture of Price put up here for you he is 75% Chase and looks like a Carver dog to me. As for CH Shiver one of the best I have ever seen and she was just an 11 month old pup.

That would be cool. Also, I am not sure how much you've read up on the Pedigree Database, but you can upload as many as 4 photos of each dog (plus videos if you have them), and it would be nice to see some larger/new photos of Chase/Chita and some of your other foundational dogs get added over time.

Jack

[Ez Country]

I have read a little, and I started to ad some but got sidetracked, been browsing this site, some pretty good stuff nice work

[bulldogsrus]

Only just got round to reading this, and after listening to the tape and studying the peds its took several hours to digest :cheers:

Thanks to you guys for taking the time to post your thoughts and experiences with these dogs it made a very interesting read.

Many years ago I took a trip to Ireland, while there I saw GR CH Badger and his son CH Bob, also saw some other stuff bred off Badger put to bitches off different lines. Dont remember the peds but one thing that jogged my memory after reading this thread was a high percentage of them was red or black and carried that blaze.

[gabbagabbahey]

Pretty sure i have a pic of Bob which i will put up for you in the next couple day. Off the top of my head he had 6 races.

[Ez Country]

Wish I still had this one, his breeding was made twice 6 in each litter all bulldogs.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8442

[Officially Retired]

Beautiful animal! Looks like a male Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178).

[Ez Country]

Sassy reminds me of a dog named Ranger bro to CH Slave

[classic pitbull]

Interesting... Thanks for the great knowledge.

[nationalboy]

Good read Jack. I strongly believe all of us have dogs with peds that aren't completely correct. This is what I meant in a post earlier about papers. The honesty of the breeder is all that matters. Papers are probably hung more than most think.

i agree with you 100peercent skipper....

[Officially Retired]

I will have to re-add some of the photos I placed here.

Somehow they got deleted, so I will try to re-add them so the impact of my argument is greater.

[Officially Retired]

Okay, everybody, I have re-entered the photographs I had originally put here as visual evidence of my case here.

I think I forgot to transfer them to this new server, back when I changed servers, but that omission has been corrected now.

Makes a much more powerful case with the visual presentation (please see page 1).

Jack

[CRISIS]

havent those always been there? because i remember seeing that comparison before.....

[Officially Retired]

Yes, they were there originally, that's why you saw them.

Then I transferred servers and some were lost, and then (no) they weren't there; although a few photos remained.

I just put the missing ones in today, so unless I lost my mind and am delusional, I am positive today is the first day several of those photos have been visible in awhile :)

Jack

[TFX]

Another interesting scenario is that inasmuch as Bobby and Pat really despised each other, when their dogs were mated together; whether the pedigrees were represented properly or not, it always produced fantastic dogs. Here is but another example, this time on the CH Bad Billy ROM side:
http://apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=39107

CH Senorita is the sister of Bill Bancroft's Tina, who was the best bitch Bancroft ever owned and arguably even better than CH Senorita. Tina in turn became the double bred granddam of the great Schoolteacher's GR CH Shep dog.

[OGDOGG]

Looking at the pedigree, it looks like the bottom side added smarts to the top, making Ch Señorita a complete bulldog.
I could be wrong but whenever I look at a good dog's pedigree, one side of the pedigree is always inbred or line bred.
For example this bitch http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8046
When we campaigned her dam Ch IcePick, she wasn't a smart dog(chest, shoulder) typical of a mixed bred mutt. But she was a straight forward fight crazy bitch.
Her sire Screaming Icon was a smart head dog. When I bred them together, Screaming IcePick got the best of both world. She will defend and kill.

[TFX]

I don't know, the CH Bad Billy dogs were about as ringwise as I have ever seen. My CH Costello was 7/16ths CH Bad Billy/Hannibal breeding, and he was a tremendously smart dog. He has thrown that same pit intelligence into a high percentage of his descendants now generation after generation. You're right, some good dogs have half of their pedigree inbred or linebred. I find the best ones to breed to after they have performed will have the entire pedigree linebred. Keep breeding to the higher end animals from your yard as you mentioned, and you will continue to raise the quality of the line.

[CYJ]

Fellows here is some more Fly in the soup. Right before Pat left Oregon. Thinking he may have moved to Arizona when he moved from Oregon.

Within a short time before he moved from Oregon. Pat and some fellow dog friends of his. I no longer remember who else or how many that Mr. Orbie Coplin named that was present with Pat. This was 35 years ago or more.

Pat came up to pull some dogs with Mr.Coplin. Too also look at his kennel of dogs. Mr. Coplin's dogs were based on some of the older breedings off Heinzl's yard. They were good dog friends.

May have been two or three dog pulls that day.. Mr. Coplin had one promising male that out pulled one of Pat's dogs. May have stopped Pat's dog from pulling. Orbie said Pat looked real surprised as you could see his eyes very well through those thick glasses. Seems Orbie got the better of Pat's dogs in the dog pulls that day. Mr. Coplin at that time was up in age. But still going strong.

Now here is the bad story part of this pulling event with Pat. Within two days or so after the dog pulls. Some one or some bodies came up in the late night. Up through the back woods to where Mr. Coplin had his dogs. The promising male that looked real good was stolen along with two of his favorite female dogs.

Mr. Coplin called me upset and told me what had happen. Even though Pat lived in Oregon. Was still a good drive from Mr.Coplin's place to where Pat was living. He had planned to make the trip. But in a very short period of time. Pat had up and moved.

Mr. Coplin had never had that to happen to him before that I knew of. He did not see who got the dogs. Strangely the dog thieves knew which ones to get. Was not a random type stealing. Never happened again till Mr. Coplin passed on.

He was a great friend to me and helped me along in the game. Even sent me two young stud dogs that turned out very well for only the cost of the shipping. I sent him a nice black male pup off Mayfield's Snake bred to my Young's (Coplin) Tina. Orbie named him Carolina Kid. The other Coplin bitch Pokey was owned by Vernon Jackson. My partner in the dogs back then.

One will never know. But there might be a little of the Coplin breeding in some of those Early bred Patrick dogs. Then maybe not. If so did not hurt the line any. Why you have to try and do your best with what you have.

[Officially Retired]

The plot thickens ... lol :)

[EWO]

Good read. Sometimes I like the history of the dogs as much as the dogs themselves. Not to play the ends against the middle but here is my take. Jack you should call up the PATRICKS, say, "hello, this is Jack and thanks for all you did in the dogs" and hang up. If they had actually bred Hammer the way he is papered Poncho may not have ability or durability or finish. He could have even checked up right off the bat. The next dog you had in mind may not have taught you or made you see what Poncho was able to do. So regardless of whether he was bred this way or that way you started with him and bettered things starting with him. So now some hundred years later, does it really matter? For me, no. Did I enjoy the reading and the conversation? Absolutely.
My thought process about this using a similar story. Young pitcher is our area that is blessed with a golden arm. Like a lot of them he has never been blessed with good coaching and worse has a father living the glory years thru his kid. He is asked to throw too much. But the father's penis lengthens with every outing. The kid's arm begins to fade as 16 year old. Just too many innings. Father and coach have major argument. Coach is an ass and does not have kids best interest at heart. Just uses him to no end. Kid has elbow issues. Coach pressures him to throw and dad wants him to throw. Kid quits baseball his senior year in high school. Does not pitch a day because the two people who are looking out for him are not. Sad story. But wait. His arm rests for an entire year. His love and passion are still there. He walks on to a D-1 school and makes their starting rotation. His future is bright.
The moral to the story is that if those two people that should have been looking out for him had not pushed him out of baseball for the wrong reasons he would have thrown his arm out and became a 'never-was' or a 'couldabeen'. But instead the shortcomings of another was a blessing in disguise. Poncho was Poncho, and Poncho had no idea who his 'pops' or his 'moms' were. So in back door way they did you a favor by making Poncho regardless of which route it took to get to Poncho. The important fact is Poncho was Poncho. Just like this kid. The key factor was he rested a worn out arm, why he rested in really amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things.
A great article. Enjoyed the read. I recently had the opportunity to talk to a dog man in his 70's who had dogs in the fifties, a two generation dog man. The phone call lasted nearly two and a half hours. I never met or talked to 95% of the people he talked about but it was history and it was interesting. So for the history aspect, great job. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Good read. Sometimes I like the history of the dogs as much as the dogs themselves. Not to play the ends against the middle but here is my take. Jack you should call up the PATRICKS, say, "hello, this is Jack and thanks for all you did in the dogs" and hang up. If they had actually bred Hammer the way he is papered Poncho may not have ability or durability or finish. He could have even checked up right off the bat. The next dog you had in mind may not have taught you or made you see what Poncho was able to do. So regardless of whether he was bred this way or that way you started with him and bettered things starting with him. So now some hundred years later, does it really matter? For me, no. Did I enjoy the reading and the conversation? Absolutely.

Great point EWO, and I agree 100% (well, except the part of me calling up Pat to "thank him," as he's been too much of a prick for me to do that :lol:, not to mention the other fact that Darren Steele is the one who bred Ch Hammer ;))

But anyway, I have always said I would never have bred to Hammer, if I knew the truth at the time, and yet it was the single most important breeding I ever made ... so here's to serendipity :cheers:





My thought process about this using a similar story. Young pitcher is our area that is blessed with a golden arm. Like a lot of them he has never been blessed with good coaching and worse has a father living the glory years thru his kid. He is asked to throw too much. But the father's penis lengthens with every outing. The kid's arm begins to fade as 16 year old. Just too many innings. Father and coach have major argument. Coach is an ass and does not have kids best interest at heart. Just uses him to no end. Kid has elbow issues. Coach pressures him to throw and dad wants him to throw. Kid quits baseball his senior year in high school. Does not pitch a day because the two people who are looking out for him are not. Sad story. But wait. His arm rests for an entire year. His love and passion are still there. He walks on to a D-1 school and makes their starting rotation. His future is bright.
The moral to the story is that if those two people that should have been looking out for him had not pushed him out of baseball for the wrong reasons he would have thrown his arm out and became a 'never-was' or a 'couldabeen'. But instead the shortcomings of another was a blessing in disguise. Poncho was Poncho, and Poncho had no idea who his 'pops' or his 'moms' were. So in back door way they did you a favor by making Poncho regardless of which route it took to get to Poncho. The important fact is Poncho was Poncho. Just like this kid. The key factor was he rested a worn out arm, why he rested in really amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things.


Again, I agree. In the end, the most important thing about a dog being a producer is prepotency not "how they're bred" :idea:

Poncho's ability to produce, IMO, was more a testimony to Miss Trinx, but yet I bred Trinx's brother Truman to other "pure Patrick" dogs ... and NEVER got the same quality results as I got from breeding Trinx to Hammer ... and Poncho, Missy, and Ruby were light years better dogs than either Truman or Trinx ... so there was something unique about that combination that just happened to pan out.

All 3 dogs were excellent, and all 3 dogs were extremely prepotent, and that (more than anything else) is what really counts when making a breeding. Other than Dolly and Polly (and their magic with Yellow), and Trinx's brother Bodine (who's magic crossed with Butkus' sister), there was almost no "tight Hollingsworth dog" that could come close to the legacy that Poncho, Missy, and Ruby produced ... and, of course, my dogs have blended superbly with both cousins' offspring as well, producing multiple winners, Champions, etc. along the way 8)





A great article. Enjoyed the read. I recently had the opportunity to talk to a dog man in his 70's who had dogs in the fifties, a two generation dog man. The phone call lasted nearly two and a half hours. I never met or talked to 95% of the people he talked about but it was history and it was interesting. So for the history aspect, great job. EWO

Thank you very much, glad you enjoyed it, and nice commentary as well :)

Jack

[EWO]

I enjoyed this post quite a bit. I never met B. Smith personally. We shared one phone call in the 93-94 maybe even 95 time frame. It has been a long time and it was just one phone call. I can't judge a guy on one phone call but I did take two things from the conversation. One he was very sure of himself. A non-issue there because without confidence the game would come to a screeching halt. Secondly Bull Boy Bob would go down as one of the all time great producers because he had 'others' working for him. I took that information with a grain of salt. We were just venturing into the Patrick dogs back then. I had just got out of the service and prior to that I grew up in NC. In the mid 80's it was Snooty and Redboy and later on the Garner dogs. You could step out of any front door, throw a rock and hit a Garner dog. While I was in the service I met a guy named Mike B. whose pops did dogs in the southwest. When I was in San Diego we took leave and went to a get together in Stafford or Safford AZ. I can't remember. We saw three sets of males. This was around 90-91. A couple were of the Patrick breeding. They were slick, and smart and positioned themselves to deliver but were hard to be delivered upon. So my plan was to get some of those Patrick dogs when I got back to NC down the road in 93-94. Later down that road I saw a BBB dog that was bred to a Reuben daughter, or so that is how it was told. Long way around but that is when I called Mike B. who in turn got me the B. Smith phone number. When trying something new I always start with a female and pay the stud fee to start with a litter of my own. I was trying to work a deal on a Reuben daughter or Reuben doubled up on a grand daughter. Unfortunately it never got worked out. Looking back it would have been nice to get that Reuben shot from way back then.
But like I said, things happen for a reason. I never met B. Smith personally and did not know him other than that one phone call. The years may be off by one or two either way as it was a long time ago and it was just that one phone call. As I read the posts from Jack and TFX I was looking back on my younger years. Pretty much being self analytical, sometimes a brain surgeon and sometimes a dumbass. I may have enjoyed the post for that reason alone. It was good times back then. The game had characters and personality. Most of the people in the game had been in it for a long time. The new comers came and went but not near the rate they come and go today. And after being in the game back then for so long, coupled with being a character with personality, there were a million stories to be told. From the late 70's into the early 80's I was always captured by the history and the conditioning. My first job as a 10-11 year old was walking dogs. A dollar a mile, which put me on Rockefeller status in rural NC in the late 70's.
Sorry for the rambling. It was a great post. Offered up some nice history and some anti-history (LOL). It provoked some good memories. Some 'wish-I-hadda's'. And some proof to one of the first things I remember about growing up around old dogmen. The only way to prove a dogs breeding is to win three or four or produce dogs that win, or better yet produce dogs that produce dogs. When that happens there is always someone out there that can tell you how he is really bred. In turn, if we are discussing the breeding of Hammer (Reuben or BBB) still in 2013, then those dogs most certainly threw some dogs in their day. EWO

[TFX]

I was trying to work a deal on a Reuben daughter or Reuben doubled up on a grand daughter.

If you were trying to get a REUBEN daughter in 95 you were going to be SOL, because we had the very last one (MOLLY) and she died in 92 or 93. A double grandaughter was still a possibility, but not that probable.

[EWO]

I saw the BBB/Reuben bred male in like 91 or 92 while stationed in southern California. I didn't make the call til at least late 93 when I was discharged. I started back in dogs late 93. I made the call because it was a lot of the Chinaman stuff around the NC area, as well as the Snooty and Miss Pool Hall Red. The Reuben stuff would have been a nice add to these dogs. Distance was an issue. But like I said it was a long time ago. What was living and not living by 95 is way beyond me. I liked the male I saw and was told it was the Reuben blood that was making him. I was a young guy who was 3000 miles from home and invited to a show. I could not name anyone there other than the Mike B., the guy I was in the service with. I was going off what I was told by people I did not know. Turns out the Reuben daughter/granddaughter was nothing more than an inquiry. It would have been around 94 or so, maybe as late as 95 but that is like a hundred years ago when trying to remember when a phone call was made when nothing ever developed from the call. Knowing I had that one conversation with Bobby S. way back when is what made the original post so interesting. The facts and how things turned out doesn't/didn't much matter as it was the history of the post that made it a worthwhile read for me. EWO

[drz]

Great read! The thing I've noticed about the truth and don't get me wrong I understand why you've classified this as a "theory" but I've never doubted it to be the truth, anyway as I was saying the thing about the truth is that once you hit it every other thing starts falling into place. Too many coincidences get cleared up once you add Rueben to the equation. Now you take a look at Rueben being heavy on Ironhead (who was believed by many including Davis to be the actual sire of Boomerang) and people will understand how the QOH blood always clicked so well with Boomerang blood. Just my two cents anyway.

[Officially Retired]

I agree with you 100%.

I can't call my conclusion "a fact" ... but what I can do is list the facts and let people understand why my "opinion" is what it is :D

Jack

PS: Nice to see you back.

[drz]

I agree with you 100%.

I can't call my conclusion "a fact" ... but what I can do is list the facts and let people understand why my "opinion" is what it is :D

Jack

PS: Nice to see you back.

Appreciate the welcome. Seems you're running a pretty classy ship over here. I'll tell you something. You had it so that part of this article could be read without a subscription. I probably read that excerpt a half dozen times. I was like Jack you friggin tease I think you got me. Then I noticed some knowledgable dogmen had all but gone missing from the other site and here I am. Just to let you know that "sample" concept works at least it worked on me.

[Officially Retired]

Appreciate the welcome. Seems you're running a pretty classy ship over here. I'll tell you something. You had it so that part of this article could be read without a subscription. I probably read that excerpt a half dozen times. I was like Jack you friggin tease I think you got me. Then I noticed some knowledgable dogmen had all but gone missing from the other site and here I am. Just to let you know that "sample" concept works at least it worked on me.


LMAO, yep, that was intentional ... because, sooner or later, curiosity gets the best of us all :mrgreen: ;) :lol:

Nice to have you back :cheers:

Jack

PS: Hope the full article didn't disappoint 8)

[drz]

Full article was very good. Were you also doing one on Buck? I spoke to one of the guys who I believe had Buck for his first show if not multiple shows. He says he believes the original papers were correct. I rarely if ever see a Buck down bred the way I'd like so it was never something I researched despite my curiosity. Anyway this thread is about Ch. Hammer and it was a great read.

[Officially Retired]

My full opinion on Buck is in my Hollingsworth Dogs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/Hollingsworth) book, but I suppose I could re-post it here in another thread. I also have a tape recording of Pat telling of Buck's real pedigree and why he made the switch 8)

[Tony.R]

man that was a very very good read thx.

[Officially Retired]

Thank you--and you're welcome. Cheers.

[Officially Retired]

And, once again confirming my theory, it's amazing how much Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs and Vise-Grip's Missy look alike :mrgreen:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000682_01.jpg
Patrick's Cheryl Tiegs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33399)

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000003_01.jpg
Vise-Grip's Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7432)

When considering Ch Hammer and Tessy are brother/sister ... and if you further consider that Miss Trinx was 3/4 Lady In Red (a daughter of Little Tater) ... their pedigrees are basically identical ... mirror "flips" of each other.

And, if you look at the dogs themselves, they could be twins :mrgreen:

Missy was only 16 months in her photo (and Tiegi is an old lady in hers), but I have photos of Missy in her later years and the two bitches are virtual clones of each other :shocked:

Jack

[Officially Retired]

This is how they're each papered by the ADBA:

Cheryl Tiegs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=682)
Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3)

This is how they're actually bred:

Cheryl Tiegs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33399)
Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7432)



.

[skipper]

Said it before, missy was an awesome looker.

[Officially Retired]

Thank you.

She was my favorite and still the hardest scratcher and hardest mouthed female I've ever had ...

[No Quarter Kennel]

Genetics are a crazy thing. I was at one of the better yards in Texas about a couple of weeks ago and there was a true old timer of the dogs there who saw a dog and remarked how she herself was a clone of a dog that died 20 years ago. Same blood and incredible consistency. Same thing with you pictures of Missy there.

Jack, if can or will share, I'd love to know where some of that exact kind of gene pool is available right now. Its got such a similar base and blend to the Tonka Red Baron dogs and the Red Rock/Meathead dogs as well. I would be interested to know where it's at, ESPECIALLY if there's some real close, as in Texas area.

I'm going to have to learn to post pictures and crap like that here.

[TFX]

As those of you who have been here for awhile, or have followed some of what I have written on Jack's former boards now for many years know, I have always said it takes 4-5 generations for traits to manifest themselves anew, giving credence to what NQK posted about the throwback and the old timer. The problem is that very few fanciers work with a family long enough to know what in the hell they are talking about 4-5 generations later, or 20-30 years ago. Too many ballers out there looking for the killer to take out to the fast lane.

So, let me take you boys and girls back to 1991.. This is my late kennel partner The Pope as a young man with our Molly bitch, a direct daughter of Reuben ROM x Billy Jo (CH Bad Billy x Kudo, who is CH Bad Billy x Carver's Tiny). This is the only photo of Molly in existence. I am sorry it is old, black and white, and not the best pose. However, I believe even with these things working against us here, one can see the uncanny resemblance to Missy and Tiegs in head shape and color.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/Molly_zps71f8f014.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/tfxtfx/media/Molly_zps71f8f014.jpg.html)

[TFX]

Now, with all of this context, let's revisit the Queen of Hearts potential if Bobby Jr. is really sired by Reuben as suspected. How does the Queen stack up physically to these females if they are her realatives, and remember the Queen has Boomerang on the bottom just like Tiegs, and remember that CH Bad Billy behind our Molly is also a Boomerang grandson, so we are dealing not only with the Reuben blood in common, but also the other dogs in the periphery with the Boomerang blood.

Queen of Hearts
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_001919_04.jpg?142040

[Officially Retired]

Genetics are a crazy thing. I was at one of the better yards in Texas about a couple of weeks ago and there was a true old timer of the dogs there who saw a dog and remarked how she herself was a clone of a dog that died 20 years ago. Same blood and incredible consistency. Same thing with you pictures of Missy there.


To me, this is the greatest "sign" of a bloodline, is consistency. No doubt.




Jack, if can or will share, I'd love to know where some of that exact kind of gene pool is available right now. Its got such a similar base and blend to the Tonka Red Baron dogs and the Red Rock/Meathead dogs as well. I would be interested to know where it's at, ESPECIALLY if there's some real close, as in Texas area.

There is a member here Redrum who has a dog named Ice Storm (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=472) who is heavy Poncho, and showing to be a great dog and producer, and is in your area.





I'm going to have to learn to post pictures and crap like that here.

LOL, it's all there in the video tutorials (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/videos.php) :)

Jack

[Officially Retired]

As those of you who have been here for awhile, or have followed some of what I have written on Jack's former boards now for many years know, I have always said it takes 4-5 generations for traits to manifest themselves anew, giving credence to what NQK posted about the throwback and the old timer. The problem is that very few fanciers work with a family long enough to know what in the hell they are talking about 4-5 generations later, or 20-30 years ago. Too many ballers out there looking for the killer to take out to the fast lane.

So, let me take you boys and girls back to 1991.. This is my late kennel partner The Pope as a young man with our Molly bitch, a direct daughter of Reuben ROM x Billy Jo (CH Bad Billy x Kudo, who is CH Bad Billy x Carver's Tiny). This is the only photo of Molly in existence. I am sorry it is old, black and white, and not the best pose. However, I believe even with these things working against us here, one can see the uncanny resemblance to Missy and Tiegs in head shape and color.
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/Molly_zps71f8f014.jpg (http://s50.photobucket.com/user/tfxtfx/media/Molly_zps71f8f014.jpg.html)


They really do have that "look" ... it's not in the coat color ... it's in the expression of the eyes and the carriage of the ears ... it's an expression that you can just "see" (if you know the dogs of that line).

It's unmistakable.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Now, with all of this context, let's revisit the Queen of Hearts potential if Bobby Jr. is really sired by Reuben as suspected. How does the Queen stack up physically to these females if they are her realatives, and remember the Queen has Boomerang on the bottom just like Tiegs, and remember that CH Bad Billy behind our Molly is also a Boomerang grandson, so we are dealing not only with the Reuben blood in common, but also the other dogs in the periphery with the Boomerang blood.
Queen of Hearts
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_001919_04.jpg?142040


Agreed, and if this is the true breeding of The Queen (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=7465&dam_id=1092), it also makes more "genetic sense," and my dogs have always blended well with this blood (and I am sure yours does too).

Jack

[jawman]

Nice Read Jack, enjow IT.

J

[CYJ]

Note how straight the back is on BBB. Note what some might call a Roach back or curved back on the Rueben dog, even shows on the Bolio dog. This is a trait in the Carver line of dogs. Some other Carver dogs I had seen up close had this trait. My three dogs being Young's Chuck, Young's Jake, Young's Winchester, had that same type build of the Ruben dog with the same type back and back end.

These type dogs have what I liked to call,a lugging diesel power of strength. Having strong tensile strength combined with the muscle strength. You could feel it when walking one of them. A steady strong pull on the lease. The dogs off my Chuck dog including Chuck were a laid back type of dogs. That did not waste unnecessary energy till something serious caught their attention. Being more calmer dogs and not nut case chain runners and root diggers. You would think they would be weaker dogs. But were strong as a Oxen.

Jack, most of us are all in agreement about the breeding on Mason's Hammer, at least I am. Fix the pedigree on this site and let the die hard Patrick dog men who want the BBB dog in the pedigree. Run with what they have from the ADBA. IMHO Cheers

[jawman]

...........................

[Officially Retired]

Jack, most of us are all in agreement about the breeding on Mason's Hammer, at least I am. Fix the pedigree on this site and let the die hard Patrick dog men who want the BBB dog in the pedigree. Run with what they have from the ADBA. IMHO Cheers

LOL, I can see it in the body posture, as you say, and also in the expression of face/eyes/ears.

It is very prepotent blood, and Poncho had that "stamp"--and threw it.

Bandana was a BBB dog ...

Poncho was a Hammer/Reuben dog ...

Of that I am 100% convinced.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Nice Read Jack, enjow IT.

J


...........................

Glad you enjoyed. You have to actually upload the file as an attachment. Click "go advanced" on the textbox (found at lower right corner).

Jack

[jawman]

Another shot on Reuben. Tn Jack for helping

J

[Officially Retired]

Wow he looks like Amazon!

[jawman]

yes indeed he does.

Amazon got 8 x Hammer in 6 gen,

[Foxman]

Through the years I have seen top dogmen who have lied about breedings. They were real lucky DNA was not used in those days. Even a famous dogman of this era had the nerve to say about some dogs he sold a man. He said. He really doesn't know how his dogs are bred. The papers I gave him are not right. He might as well stood on a box and yelled out. I'm a lier.
I worked on my family tree for years and then one day I realized a family trees means nothing. You do not know how many people behind you were the true children of the people that raised them. Whether they were taken in by a family member or were illegitimate. There was no paperwork in those days. Yet paperwork doesn't prove much. I had my DNA done and found out my heritage was not as I was told. So just doing that. This test tells me anyone's family ancestry and their dogs family ancestry is probably a joke. Randy Fox

[Officially Retired]

Through the years I have seen top dogmen who have lied about breedings. They were real lucky DNA was not used in those days. Even a famous dogman of this era had the nerve to say about some dogs he sold a man. He said. He really doesn't know how his dogs are bred. The papers I gave him are not right. He might as well stood on a box and yelled out. I'm a lier.
I worked on my family tree for years and then one day I realized a family trees means nothing. You do not know how many people behind you were the true children of the people that raised them. Whether they were taken in by a family member or were illegitimate. There was no paperwork in those days. Yet paperwork doesn't prove much. I had my DNA done and found out my heritage was not as I was told. So just doing that. This test tells me anyone's family ancestry and their dogs family ancestry is probably a joke. Randy Fox

I hear you.

However, just because one man's family tree is a lie doesn't mean another man's family tree is a lie; same as just because one famous breeder lied doesn't mean all the famous breeders lied.

Ultimately, we only have true knowledge of things we do ourselves, the rest is just "what we choose to believe."

I KNOW how my dogs are bred; I can only "choose to believe" how the dogs in my dogs' ancestry are bred.

That does not, however, mean "all beliefs are equal" :idea:

Some people have false beliefs while what others believe is actually the truth.

And only the people involved know the truth,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Just for fun :)


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000687_02.jpg
Reuben (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=687)


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000222_04.jpg
Amazon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=222)


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000006_02.jpg
Bull Boy Bob (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6)


Which black dog does Amazon look like she is descended from? :mrgreen:


Jack

[Jrbulldogs]

deff looks like a reuben

[Blueprint]

No contest Reuben by a mile.

[loot]

Where to begin!? Bobby Smith and I had a close, but also a rocky relationship. He was an interesting man in many ways. The last time he threatened to kill me (yes there were more than one), he told me “write about me when I am dead”, because I had posted some rather benign stories about my experiences with the bloodline on an internet forum. Well, Bobby died a few weeks ago. I don't wish to speak ill of the dead, so we will make this less about Bobby, and more about the dogs. However, you cannot separate the man from some of the stories about the dogs, and certainly he played a big role in helping me to establish the stock that I still have over 22 years later. Bobby told some of his own dog stories through his buddy T.L. Williams' publications over the years. Later on, he would completely wig out about mere pedigrees of his dogs that were posted on the internet. Bobby was a temperamental fellow. He had been in a pretty bad car accident in the late 80’s and was a chronic pain patient, and that hindered his ability to work, and in my estimation sometimes to act rationally. He had been on trial for a murder in Chicago in the early 1980's that he eventually was acquitted of. There was most definitely a dark side to the man. There also a very sensitive side. Those who knew him well watched him care for his “Grammy” for several years in his own home until she passed away, giving her very compassionate care and saving her from the fate of a nursing home. Bobby was a country music singer and songwriter in the 1970's and 1980's with a couple of albums to his credit. If Bobby would have looked like George Strait he sure could have made it big, because he could sing every bit as good as George could. Unfortunately, there was not a lot of room in Nashville for great singers who weighed in over 350 lbs. I thought he was a real good songwriter too. One of the things we shared a deep passion for besides the bulldogs, was country music. We were both on the level with the music, and between that and the bulldogs, it bonded us in a unique way.

I began fooling with stock that had Bobby's breeding behind in it 1989 after having dogs since 1986. In 1990, we began a friendship via telephone through a mutual friend, and Bobby invited me down to see the place later that year. As a young dogman trying to bust into the game, Bobby knew just how to dazzle a youngster, including picking and signing original songs, great food, and he even sent me home with a family bred bitch that I named Cucamonga’s Spotea and who would become my foundation female. I began regular trips from Southern California to Tucson all through the year 1991 for various dog business, including my first couple of shows. When he came to California for dog business, he would invite me to be there. I won my first one down at Mr. Leo Bice’s place on a show that Bobby had arranged and refereed. He then hooked me into Buffalo, who was an up and coming fellow a few years older than me. Buffalo had several wins with sons of Gr. Ch. Badger and Ch. Fox. If you listened to the taped conversation with Patrick that Jack posted, you know he could pull a con. He told me I could beat this guy with my dog, that Buffalo was getting too cocky with all of his recent wins, and he was so sure that I was going to win that he was going to bet on my dog. For a 22 year old working as a landscaper, the $5000 purse was big money for me. Smith supposedly took a large portion of the bet. As my dog went to laying down about the 2:15 mark after pummeling the other entry nonstop, I went to call him into a turn, and Smith who was acting as referee stopped me from it. It was a fishy deal, but with me figuring that he had a sizeable amount of the purse, I thought he was on my side. He was the certainly the veteran dogman, and so I foolishly left my dog down and stopped calling him into a turn. Eventually my entry went to sleep in holds, and when he woke up he got up on his feet and did turn in the process. Finally, a handle! He was not hurt, but he was utterly exhausted and rather disoriented. When I handled him, I didn’t shake him up much, and he truly didn’t know he was released. When I shouted at him finally about the 4-5 count, he wobbled over and was counted out, taking a hold at the 11 count at 2:38. Bobby declared the other entry the winner, as it was a no scratch to win contest. “We” were out the money. He paid me a genuine compliment that night pitside that meant a lot then, and still does now. He simply called me by name with a lot of expression and admiration in his voice and said “you are a DOGman, YOU are a dogman”.

A few weeks later, he called up and asked me if I would come down and live with Buffalo at the Smith & Walton Kennel and be a caretaker and conditioner of about 55 dogs. My life’s ambition since I was 16 years old reading Stratton books was to be a dogman, and here was my chance to feed and breed multiple Champions, ROM dogs, and assess all of their progeny, and show some of them. It was an opportunity that I jumped at, so I moved down in January 1992. Buffalo and I, who had only been casual acquaintances with each other to that point, became the best of friends relatively quickly. While living there, we pieced together the fact that Bobby had bet on both of our dogs in our show the previous fall, and he stood to profit handsomely if I lost. His encouragement for me to “leave the dog down” was his last attempt to have the dog fade and him not have to come up with money that he didn’t have. It was a green handler’s mistake that I will always regret. I think in some way his inviting me down to live there was his way to repent for cheating me. Then again, maybe it was just his way of having 2 dumb kids live there, feed, scoop, pay for the dog food and also pay rent. He was sure a smooth operator! When Buffalo and I were looking to attend Fat Bill’s Pig Pickin in 1992, and were set up to go halves on some Boomerang stock from Ronnie Duhon to blend with the Reuben/Bad Billy blood, he ended up throwing Buffalo out of the place. It was starting to seem as if he wanted to hold us down in the dogs.

That background sets the stage somewhat, for some in house insights into the controversy surrounding CH Hammer. If you will look at the top of the article Jack posted, the first image is the Sporting Dog Journal, and you will notice the year it was published was 1992. I had just moved down there a few weeks before this issue hit our mailbox. When it did, Bobby was in an absolute tirade, because it had only been a few years since the whole debacle with Ch. Blaze, and now here was another obvious Reuben son. I was there when he called up the Mason and accused him of lying about it. It was my understanding at the time that Bobby and the Mason had some previous discussions about it, and he swore he personally was there when the breeding was made to Bull Boy Bob. Bobby was pacified, until Jack Kelly decided to put his photo on the cover! Nobody in the S&W camp knew what Ch. Hammer looked like up until that point. Gentleman’s Choice was hanging around our crowd, and he and Mexican Pete were going to make the breeding that produced the pair that would later become the parents of Avila’s Ouch! dog. GC was told that he wasn’t breeding to a Bolio dog, that he was breeding to a Reuben dog. He didn’t care, and the breeding was made. When I returned back to California in 1993, I was very tempted to breed my Spotea bitch to Ch Hammer. In hindsight, I sure wish that I would have done so, controversial pedigree notwithstanding.

I would also like to add at this point, that when Pat made breedings with Reuben, he was still living in New Mexico. It was my understanding that Rowdy Kennels definitely had some of the known Reuben dogs, and if memory serves me correctly Pat may have even stuck the dog on their yard for a period of time. Anyhow, I know that Rowdy Kennels had several winners sired by Reuben, and I believe one was a 4X winner which would have given Reuben another ROM point. The Reuben dogs had a type to them. Personally, I always focused my attention more the Bad Billy direction to preserve it. Nonetheless, my dogs had, and still have Reuben blood in them. Kloos and I owned the last living daughter of Reuben, and bred her to her half brother Ch.Fox.

Incidentally, I also agree with Jack that CH Bobby is a Reuben son. Bobby had discussed this suspicion with Joe Abraham back when Queen of Hearts was on the trail. There is so much more to add, but let me cut it as short as I can by saying that Jack and I came to the conclusion at least 10 years ago that our dogs are probably genetically similar. Regarding style, he has selected differently, but many of the Smith & Walton dogs were known as finishers. Consequently, many Poncho and Silverback bred dogs are finishers. Jack and I both boast of smart, versatile, all purpose, game dogs that are useful. They don’t hit everything that moves. Smith & Walton’s Blake (2XW) was one of the best finishing dogs I ever saw. I conditioned him for his first which was a forfeit. He was a dog that would play with puppies. I have a litter of 4, 4 month olds now. Their dam runs loose with the sire on chain, and the pups can be cut loose to play with them. There are too many similarities in the Hammer and Smith & Walton dogs physically and temperamentally, and a logical explanation based on the material facts to not have at least reasonable doubts on Ch. Hammer’s pedigree. At the same time, there are virtually no similarities to the Bull Boy Bob dogs. In closing, I will tease you with 2 photos. I have more coming, but does this look like a Poncho pup? This are straight off of my linebred stock.The traits jump around, but I still get this type on occasion. I know where it comes from, and now so do you.


http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/DSCN0342.jpg http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/BattersPup.jpg

Thanks TFX. For a great read and some history. I also can see what you and Jack are saying.

[loot]

This is a son of Blake I owned, and who is buried out here. Northern Express sent me this dog when he was 12, and I lost him when he was 13 never getting pups. A 25% Reuben dog, he exemplifies the kind of thickness and coloration you also see in Jack's line such as in the Diamond Girl segment of the family. One could argue that "thickness" comes from the Hollingsworth influence, but that is a rangier thickness than these type of dogs. You will notice the same exact posture in this dog's back as you see in the Reuben photo and the Ch Hammer photo.http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f335/tfxtfx/Dogs345.jpg He is bred like this:

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7593

Nice looking dog TFX. I'm sure you wished you would have gotten him sooner.

[loot]

Regarding Reuben's match career, he was a 1XW and 1XL. Now, Bobby always told me that he was a deep game dog, and that when he lost he rolled end over end to get to the other dog and just didn't make the count. I used to attend a chicken pit over near Marana every other weekend for derbies with Carl Clark and Lars Larson , who were both good dogmen in their own right, and Patrick bloodline devotees for the most part. Lars told me once "Bobby sure has done alright with that Reuben stock, not bad for an old cur dog". Lars was the referee for the loss Reuben had, and I asked him what he meant by cur dog. He told me he made a lot of scratches but he was counted out and quit. This is a classic example of how some dogmen view things. I left it alone with Lars but talked to Bobby about it later, and of course he was really upset. I think Lars didn't distinguish very well between couldn't and wouldn't when he tagged Reuben with the cur label. Bobby was a man who would not look at some bitches, (which I didn't agree with in general when I was active in the dogs) but he most assuredly wouldn't breed to a cur male. I have every reason to believe that Reuben was a pretty deep game dog. He was severely undershot, but very rarely did we get stufff from the bloodline that was too far undershot, even when inbred. I liked the Bad Billy type of stuff better, but the Billy and Reuben blood blended very well together. I believe Reuben was a super prepotent dog, and many of his offspring were also prepotent.

In the 2003 time frame when we were still talking some, Bobby told me that his stuff was still game but weak, that they often would not survive afterwards. I didn't know it at the time, but he obtained a daughter of my Ch. Costello to blend with his stuff. He did tell me he had a Gr Ch Shep bred male, which carried some of his own stuff down from Tina and Woodrow. This was his attempt at putting vigor back into the line. This breeding to the Costello daughter was an interesting compliment, as Ch. Costello won his 3rd over none other than Bobby Smith in 1:46. There was a comment made to me afterwards "at least we killed him". Well, one of the hallmarks of the Costello dog and his offspring was durability. After 7 critical days, he was back on chain in good spirits, thanks to the expertise of S&S Combine. After he survived, Bobby was endlessly trying to put stink on the Ch Costello dog, so to find out that he was breeding our Costello stuff into his stock was really the ultimate compliment.

I previously gave T.P. of SW&P (Bobby's partner) Ch Costello's brother Hosea. They won with him in something like 1:48, and then lost to the Ch Chance dog with him in 1:52. Fanciers who were present that I talked to said the other handler really freaked the Hosea dog out by banging dust in his face off the carpet, making wild noises, and pretty much all manner of unsportsmanlike conduct. The Ch Peterbilt blood behind Cos and Hosea was a little skitzoid, and Hosea got a little bit of that trait on top of being raised with little socialization after I returned to California. Bobby was fit to be tied I heard about the other handler's antics, but what was done was done. Hosea was bred to a bitch from my good friend Northern Express, and that in turn produced a bitch called Peanut. Peanut then was bred to Bobby's linebred Gr Ch Shep dog named Mankind to produce a great dog named Ch Chomper.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7599
He also had a very game brother who lost in 1:42.

I sometimes lament not keeping this old blood "pure" when I certainly had the chance to do so. On the other hand, the pure stuff just was not as consistently game as the dogs I have today down from the family with my own cross and judicious selection. It was always my contention that several generations of cold and unchecked bitches hurt the family somewhat. The best remedy I could think of was to put a brutal, winning bitch into the mix who had an even better sister , a solid dam, a winning granddam, and a winning great granddam. This was a string of prepotent, game bitches from the Chinaman and Hollingsworth families, then bred to one of Ronald Boyles' best sires. So while my dogs today are not "pure" S&W anymore than Jack's dogs are not "pure" Hollingsworth, my dogs are damn sure better than the pure stuff ever was. Nevertheless, I still have a soft, nostalgic spot for the of the old core blood I started with, and forever will.
Thanks again TFX for another good read. An history lesson.

[Jrbulldogs]

gr ch badger
yea hammer deff was a reuben dog

[Jrbulldogs]

man badger looks like poncho jack lol

[Officially Retired]

The similar way they hold their ears and have their facial expressions is uncanny.

Bandana was a BBB dog ... Poncho was a Reuben dog.

[Jrbulldogs]

yup

[AlbinoRhino]

I'm all about the "what if's" & "possibilities" , as it's a huge part of bulldog history, however I remember Daren Steel absolutely flipping his fuckin lid about this hypothetical scenario. If Daren was going to come clean , that would have been a good time to do so ,even if he did think there was a smidge of truth to all this as he years out of dogs and certainly could give a fuck what any of us thought . But he never budged lol , ah well.

[Officially Retired]

I'm all about the "what if's" & "possibilities" , as it's a huge part of bulldog history, however I remember Daren Steel absolutely flipping his fuckin lid about this hypothetical scenario. If Daren was going to come clean , that would have been a good time to do so ,even if he did think there was a smidge of truth to all this as he years out of dogs and certainly could give a fuck what any of us thought . But he never budged lol , ah well.


I also remember Darren Steele telling me the Poncho x Lil Girl breeding "didn't take" ... and not getting my pups ... and finding out Dave P. had one that made Champion.

I called Darren on it, and he got real mad there too, and then when I provided him with references, he "explained" why he lied and fucked me out of my pup for the litter.

Darren is a self-justifying, lying sack of shit.

People tend to get the angriest when their bullshit is exposed and they get called on it.

Jack

[AlbinoRhino]

I fully understand one's disdain for another , I bought a son of GrCh FreeBee :rolleyes: , My thoughts on Daren Tupper !?! Let's just say I was rooting for the cancer. So yes , I get it .

[meathead]

i have a bitch who's mom is off silverback how would i use hammer's true ped to see stats and look at test breedings?

[Officially Retired]

i have a bitch who's mom is off silverback how would i use hammer's true ped to see stats and look at test breedings?

Where is the pedigree of your bitch?

[AlbinoRhino]

Just before ol Bobby Smith passed away ... when the Tucson 6 were fighting for their freedom , Bobby gifted a friend of mine a Badger straw , a Fox straw and a couple old plugs ... this guy had been dealing with Bobby since he got started in dogs , so it just made since.... one could only imagine... stay tuned lol

[FrostyPaws]

Tupper has always been a known liar unfortunately.

[AlbinoRhino]

It's water under the bridge

[ONP]

Is there any merit to Hammer being off of Rueban?

[Bingo]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9XX8tx67_Qc

[Bingo]

Dont know about Hammer but recording is funny anyway.I think its Bobby Smith acting like the indian.

[ONP]

Interesting. Thank you.

[Officially Retired]

You might want to check out this extensive article (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/content.php?201) I wrote on the subject ...

I am the one who uploaded that video onto YouTube ...

Jack

[ONP]

Great read, Jack.

[ONP]

Cool, I am with you guys on the Rueben thing, I will try and get a picture of Price put up here for you he is 75% Chase and looks like a Carver dog to me. As for CH Shiver one of the best I have ever seen and she was just an 11 month old pup.

Wow! I feel like I have just been spoken to from dogman heaven. Six months before Trent passed we bought a heavy pistol pup. He never explained why he wanted that particular blood. Our plan was to breed him to Price's bellymate. As fate would have it, I have both them dogs. That breeding has just went to the top of the priority list.

[Officially Retired]

Yeah, that was a real tragedy, for the children, for the people, and for that segment of the Poncho line. Just horrible from every angle.

[Mudville]

I talked with him yrs ago and we used to PM on old dogs old private board. We talked.about maybe doing a breeding together. I had my old Coy/McCool's gyp that I was looking for a stud for. We found common vround in the Chase/Sting breeding that was used as an out in her Dam. Lost track and it never came about, but I sure it would have. As I've heard from multiple sources that he had what I was looking for. R.I.P and I hope that his Fam and friends can rest easy now that the killer has been caught.

Also, BTW. ONP......, Tone?

[ONP]

Yes sir, Tony.