Question on CA Jack's keep

[m.gonzo]

In your keep, it says to feed Nature's Variety Beef exclusively throughout the keep until the last 10 days, then you switch to Nature's Variety Chicken. What are the reasons/benefits to switch from beef to chicken during the last week of the keep?

[Dogman]

They also say that when giving vitamin b,b12',iron,supplements because they say it makes them run hot so it might have something to do with high vitamins b thats in the beef honestly don't know just though I'd try to help maybe you can go from there. Please let me know when you find out and I would gladly appreciate it YIS ACE

[OGDOGG]

That's something I haven't tried yet. I start out with chicken(leg quarters)with the bone until the last week of the keep then Ill take the bone out.

[Milky]

OGDOGG, may I ask why you take out the bones the ?

[Officially Retired]

In your keep, it says to feed Nature's Variety Beef exclusively throughout the keep until the last 10 days, then you switch to Nature's Variety Chicken. What are the reasons/benefits to switch from beef to chicken during the last week of the keep?

Beef is better for building muscle during the building phase; chicken for losing weight while cutting back to peak weight.

And the reason I prefer Nature's Variety over my own raw diet for the keep is the NV meal is all finely-ground and therefore easier to digest (not to mention being apportioned in convenient half-pound patties).

Jack

[OGDOGG]

OGDOGG, may I ask why you take out the bones the ?
The last week I want to fine tune my dog as he peak. I leave the bone out so it's easier on his digestive system, one good poop should be enough for me to figure out his weight.

[OGDOGG]

I would also like to add that if you have a good eye, and adjust the keep to your dogs, you could hang with anyone out there. ;)

[waccamaw]

Explain how b12 and other b vitamins make you run hot.

[gotap_d]

Explain how b12 and other b vitamins make you run hot.

Because those vitamins are blood building vitamins. They increase your red blood cell count. The more rbc in the blood stream the less liquid which makes the blood more viscous and harder to flow through arteries. It causes the heart to work harder to pump blood through the body.

[waccamaw]

So wrong.the higher the RBC the more energy you have for longer periods of time.i take b12 and b complex daily.and have for 20 plus years .

[waccamaw]

So a dog with Babesia and a low RBC could run a marathon .

[tasoschatz]

Rbc deliver oxygen. The more available through rbc due to increased numbers, the better the cardio-respiratory systems work and produce. Performance experts know this for quite some time and they use epo doping to produce the oposite of what you say.
Less rbc equals closer to anemic status, which is well known that impairs performance for the above mentioned reasons.

[R2L]

red blood builders like iron, vitamine b and e are essential in a keep rather then harmful.

with the use of epo its a different story, you have to know what you're doing. the real danger lays in the hct.

[waccamaw]

Bingo!

[gotap_d]

So wrong.the higher the RBC the more energy you have for longer periods of time.i take b12 and b complex daily.and have for 20 plus years .

No sir waccamaw. The dog with a low rbc count couldnt run a marathon but neither could a dog with high rbc count and Polycythemia. Why because neither dog is healthy! The old saying goes "everything in moderation". Too much of a good thing is a bad thing just like too much of a bad thing is a bad thing. Any joe blow can give his dogs b-vitamins from the supplement store, blood doping is a science and if you dont know what you are doing you will f*uck your dog up. The purpose of rbc are to transport oxygen but too thick a concentration of blood does cause the heart to work harder to pump blood. Harder for concrete to travel through a hose pipe than it is for water. I use b vitamins but i wean off towards the end of a keep.

[Officially Retired]

The purpose of rbc are to transport oxygen but too thick a concentration of blood does cause the heart to work harder to pump blood. Harder for concrete to travel through a hose pipe than it is for water.

Good analogy.

[R2L]

Gotan, so starting from what rbc value you think will disadvantage a dog?
I know of dogs that went with higher then 10, which is way above normal values, with no problems.
Building of vitamin b to prevent blood getting to thick makes no sense for me, its a innocent blood builder.
Again, the danger lays in hct.

[FrostyPaws]

Taking B vitamins isn't going to cause a mass concentration of RBC. The only way you have a concentration the way you describe is through dehydration, Gotap. It's called hemoconcentration. You are right about what you describe, but you just have the reasoning behind it wrong.

Athletes train at altitude to induce polycythemia to increase their RBC count so when they go back to sea level, they have an increased ability to transport oxygen. R2L is right in saying the danger lies in the HCT levels, not the actual RBC levels themselves.

But you, nor your dog, are gonna develop life threatening polycythemia from B vitamins.

[waccamaw]

What makes the blood thick is a dog being dehydrated ,or a blood disorder .such as the body having to much vitamin k .or not being able to process vitamin k .to each his own idea , but if you go by the directions on the bottle of vitamin b you will not over do it .trust me on that .this is what makes one run hot ,weather such as humidity changing from day to day ,not enough work load prior to hunting ,and the quality of the hog they are trying to catch.

[gotap_d]

Im telling you guys the problems that arise from too much rbc in the body and you guys feel that the main problem is the HCT levels being too high. HCT measures the amount of RBC in the blood. For example, a hematocrit of 25% means that there are 25 milliliters of red blood cells in 100 milliliters of blood.

[gotap_d]

What makes the blood thick is a dog being dehydrated ,or a blood disorder .such as the body having to much vitamin k .or not being able to process vitamin k .to each his own idea , but if you go by the directions on the bottle of vitamin b you will not over do it .trust me on that .this is what makes one run hot ,weather such as humidity changing from day to day ,not enough work load prior to hunting ,and the quality of the hog they are trying to catch.

Waccamaw i agree with you and frostypaws. By taking the recommended dosages of b vitamins and iron this alone will not cause problems for your animal but like both of you said coupling a blood builder with drying out a dog causes problems. Which is why i said i wean the dog off of those vitamins toward the end of a keep. Drying a dog out naturally or with a drug and then giving the dog those vitamins is trouble jmo.

[waccamaw]

Why would you want to dry your dog out ?

[gotap_d]

I wouldnt dry my dog out excessively but i would to some degree dry my dog out to help with clotting in case of a bleeder being hit. Whether someone does it intentionally or unintentionally if you give your dog something to prevent swelling before a show or help with clotting they are removing liquids from their dog and drying the dog to some degree.

[waccamaw]

Why not just use vita k in your feed ,that naturally stops bleeding If cut by a hog

[gotap_d]

Why not just use vita k in your feed ,that naturally stops bleeding If cut by a hog

You are right. That could be an alternatve to help clot a cut but it wouldnt help with any swelling?

[waccamaw]

There are herbs that help that and minerals

[FrostyPaws]

Gotap, HCT measures whether you have too many RBC or not enough. If a person's HCT is too high, they will usually draw blood from the person to decrease the amount of RBC that's in circulation. Read it for yourself.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003646.htm

I work in the medical field.

[gotap_d]

There are herbs that help that and minerals

This is the purpose of forums. Im glad to see a difference in opinions and im always willing and trying to learn more. I dont know of any herbs or minerals that would be yoused for that so if you font mind would you post them or pm me.

[gotap_d]

Gotap, HCT measures whether you have too many RBC or not enough. If a person's HCT is too high, they will usually draw blood from the person to decrease the amount of RBC that's in circulation. Read it for yourself.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003646.htm

I work in the medical field.

Read post number 20 thats what i said.

[tasoschatz]

I think that the idea of this conversation should be around the question of what, if any, is a high amount of supplements like vit B etc taken to the extreme, meaning causing all the above problems. Obviously too much of anything is not good, this is what normal range indicators exist for.

[R2L]

i like to use this blood tonic, these amounts are save for sure. its not all i use tho
10 ml for a dog up to 20kg. so twice these amounts.

http://s17.postimg.org/4uch3xcb3/004.jpg

[waccamaw]

I can't tell everything ,but they are there you just got to do some research .

[gotap_d]

I'm very happy with the way i bring them in and the methods i use to do so but i believe that almost every aspect of a keep is scirntific. And since scirnce is always changing and improving i like to stay open minded about things so i will research some of those thingd.

[gotap_d]

i like to use this blood tonic, these amounts are save for sure. its not all i use tho
10 ml for a dog up to 20kg. so twice these amounts.

http://s17.postimg.org/4uch3xcb3/004.jpg

I dont use that exact product but something similar. If you dont mind me asking do you use this all the way through the keep?

[gotap_d]

Explain how b12 and other b vitamins make you run hot.

What made you ask this?

[Black Hand]

Most anti-inflammation foods and herbs are probably already in your keep/feed. I'm pretty sure they will not have as much as of an immediate effect like steroids but risk of major error is not there.

[FrostyPaws]

Gotap, I got confused in all the posting and replies. LOL My bad.

If you wanna clot a bleeder, you should try some from of Vit K like Wac said. Green, leafy vegetables are a rich source of Vit K, enough so that if a person is on any type of anti-coagulant medication, they suggest not to eat an abundance of that type of vegetable as it will slow down the clotting time.

[Officially Retired]

... Green, leafy vegetables are a rich source of Vit K, enough so that if a person is on any type of anti-coagulant medication, they suggest not to eat an abundance of that type of vegetable as it will slow down the clotting time.

From my recollection Kale Greens are the highest source of Vitamin K ... with Mustard Greens and Turnip Greens falling in line ...

Recommend dicing them finely with a veggie chopper (or juicer) so the dog can process the nutrients.

Jack

[R2L]

I dont use that exact product but something similar. If you dont mind me asking do you use this all the way through the keep?

yes the entire keep.

[waccamaw]

Trial and error are the best like I always say the best lesson is the one you pay for .read up on all your herbs and trace minerals .learn what each do ,just like you can use Jerusalem oaks a ( weed) to kill all worms this weed was cultivated in the 1700 in the colonies. For this it grows I know all over South Carolina

[Black Hand]

Trial and error are the best like I always say the best lesson is the one you pay for .read up on all your herbs and trace minerals .learn what each do ,just like you can use Jerusalem oaks a ( weed) to kill all worms this weed was cultivated in the 1700 in the colonies. For this it grows I know all over South Carolina

worm-seed isn't dog toxic?

[gotap_d]

worm-seed isn't dog toxic?

He said Jerusalem Oaks is a weed that kills worms.

[Black Hand]

He said Jerusalem Oaks is a weed that kills worms.

and most call it wormseed and I'm asking if he uses it on dogs because it is thought to be toxic. I know what he said lol

[gotap_d]

I misread your post black hand.

[waccamaw]

All worm meds are toxic ,that is what kills the worm ,but yes I use it on dogs and horses.

[drz]

Beef is better for building muscle during the building phase; chicken for losing weight while cutting back to peak weight.

And the reason I prefer Nature's Variety over my own raw diet for the keep is the NV meal is all finely-ground and therefore easier to digest (not to mention being apportioned in convenient half-pound patties).

Jack

Jack do you still recommend the NV raw patties in keep than your raw diet?

[drz]

Jack do you still recommend the NV raw patties in keep than your raw diet?

??????????

[Officially Retired]

Jack do you still recommend the NV raw patties in keep than your raw diet?

Sorry for missing this ... yes, only due to convenience, monitoring the exact amounts, and consistency of profile, etc.

In other words, a half-lb. patty = a half-lb. patty, but one chicken thigh is not the same as the next (bigger/smaller, etc.).

[drz]

Sorry for missing this ... yes, only due to convenience, monitoring the exact amounts, and consistency of profile, etc.

In other words, a half-lb. patty = a half-lb. patty, but one chicken thigh is not the same as the next (bigger/smaller, etc.).

Gotcha...makes feeding raw in a keep a little more easy to keep track of and adjust feed accordingly.

[Officially Retired]

Yes :-bd