Mouth

[OGDOGG]

Can line breeding and inbreeding produce consistent dogs with above average mouth? Out of all the dogs I had, the ones with the most mouth were outcrossed dogs. I also think that mouth is one of the hardest trait to consistently produce after years and years of maintaining your own line.

[Officially Retired]

I have never specifically bred for mouth, but there are lines that are known for above-average mouth.

It's just that there are other traits which are so much more important than mouth that, if it becomes a choice of selection, most breeders are going to select for gameness/intelligence/athleticism/air over "mouth" if it's an either/or situation.

Of course mouth is a good thing to have, but there are several traits that are much more important to have, so mouth often gets pushed by the wayside ... because so many individuals are worthy dogs who don't have it.

That said, many of the hardest-mouthed dogs, historically, were linebred/inbred animals (Zebo, Tornado, etc.)

Jack

[skipper]

I have seen heavily inbred animals with very devastating mouths. Have seen dogs with great mouth getting inbred upon, and the offspring lost that mouth. I know there are lines out there that are well known for their mouth. On the other hand I have seen dogs with terrible mouths not being able to do much damage because they lack finish. Seen average mouthed dogs with great finish that were able to put one down in short order. Just breed for mouth is nothing I would do, breeding for finish is something I will do. Ofcourse the dog has to be game smart and full of air to. But finish is something I rate very high.

[Officially Retired]

Great post Skipper.

"Finish" is why I am linebreeding on Silverback, over a ton of other "game, smart" stud dogs that I had.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Does any one believe that when a dog is not fully turned on in battle, his bite is not as devastating as when he is. I knew a lady who bred some of them Riptide dogs she got from R Stratton and they wouldnt get mad til around the :30 minute mark.
I schooled two siblings together one time and for the first :10 they didn't seem to do any damage whatsoever. After :10 they got serious and that's when I saw blood. Any thoughts on this?

[Officially Retired]

I think some dogs bite harder from fear (when green) than they do when they're schooled.

I also think some dogs don't bite as hard when they're controlling, than when they're going for the finish. In other words, some dogs use their mouth as a "tool" to hang-on, not as a weapon.

Kind of like some boxers jab & hook, at a lighter power effort, but will be selective as to when they will let a punch really fly. I think this is the mark of a pro.

I read a story on how Gr CH Lionhead showed a devastating mouth in school ... but then he stopped trying to bite so hard "all the time" when he was experienced ... and would just ride a dog out for the most part ... and then would really bite hard when he felt it was time to do so.

I think dogs who "try their hardest" to do anything "all the time" will get tired and used-up much quicker ... and almost invariably will be duck soup and easy money for the seasoned dog, who learns to pace itself, and who only really pours it on "when the time is right" to do so.

Jack

[skipper]

I think dogs who "try their hardest" to do anything "all the time" will get tired and used-up much quicker ... and almost invariably will be duck soup and easy money for the seasoned dog, who learns to pace itself, and who only really pours it on "when the time is right" to do so.

Jack


Very true.

[FrostyPaws]

I also know a lady who bred some dogs from Stratton dogs, namely off a bitch she called Rip. The ones I saw didn't take 30 minutes to come unglued, and they were off the Dio Duel/Rip breeding.

In regards to mouth, it is another trait. If you want to successfully have that, then you have to breed dogs that have that trait ALONG with whatever else it is you want.

I agree also that hard biting dogs that "try their hardest" to do anything "all the time" will blow out sooner than others as they're putting themselves in a position to quit. The only drawback to that is if that dog is able to get where it wants and utilize what it has, but that goes for pretty much anything. :)

[Ez Country]

that depends on how good the dogs other traits are, the sum of all the traits is what it comes down to and why some with average mouth champ out and some that have a bear trap don't, I like dogs with hustle a dog with hustle will get where they want more often still need more tools in the bag though

[OGDOGG]

That's the same lady I know(Sarah P of PDK) 17 years ago I bought a cold 4 yr old bitch she used to own and I was able to get her cranked up. Well I took her back to their farm to roll her against one of their bitch and I believe it was Rip. Her man the cop said their dogs don't get mad until the :30 minute mark. All their dogs were well behaved and the ones that didn't, they got rid of them. That's how I acquired the supposedly cold bitch's son Amos 1xw1xldg. He was a freak of a bulldog. I won with him over a vet dogman in :18, breaking both shoulders, and it took 3 of us to get Amos out the house. I went and did some time, my brother in law couldn't take care of him and he lost all his cutters. So he sold him. The guys that bought him contract him into Titan, a dog down from Rip. Amos dominated for an hour, he got tired and Titan took over. At the 1:30 mark Amos's turn to scratch, his shoulders we're broken and he crawled over to Titan, mouth, shitted, and died right in the box. When I got out I was able to acquire two offsprings I bred Amos to before I got locked up. One off a grand daughter to Rip and the other off Amos and his dame. Both were Dg dogs. I also heard some of Amos's other offsprings had above average and freak mouth too. That was the last time I had a dog with such powerful mouth. When he had cutters, every dog he bit didn't survive.

[FrostyPaws]

I believe Titan ended up winning another show in close to 3 hours. Her Maggie dog, and her brother Buck, were terrible dogs. Maggie had completely incapacitated every dog she'd ever come into contact with. Funny thing is that Sarah knew shit tons more than her husband. When I was around Sarah a few times with dog dealings, it never took those dogs 30 minutes to get mad. I never did much like her husband LOL

Rip produced a lot of quality dogs for them bred to a variety of studs. I know I never believed that until I saw a few myself. Seeing is believing.

[OGDOGG]

Lol. You're right about her knowing more about dogs than her husband. One other skill they had was cropping their dogs ears. They sure got that skill down to the T. Everyone of their dogs had the exact same ear crop and they got some nice looking game dogs. I saw those pair you mentioned when they were young. Sarah told me they were badass dogs but at the time I didn't see any scars on them so I didn't think they were any good. I always wanted to hook up with her to acquire another dog but I lost contact with her.

[OGDOGG]

I have seen heavily inbred animals with very devastating mouths. Have seen dogs with great mouth getting inbred upon, and the offspring lost that mouth. I know there are lines out there that are well known for their mouth. On the other hand I have seen dogs with terrible mouths not being able to do much damage because they lack finish. Seen average mouthed dogs with great finish that were able to put one down in short order. Just breed for mouth is nothing I would do, breeding for finish is something I will do. Ofcourse the dog has to be game smart and full of air to. But finish is something I rate very high.
Why do you think inbreeding take away their mouth? What if you just keep breeding the offsprings with mouth back to each other? Maybe it's not that simple?

[skipper]

Why do you think inbreeding take away their mouth? What if you just keep breeding the offsprings with mouth back to each other? Maybe it's not that simple?

Good question. To be honest I can't answer why. I am no expert in genetics, all I know is that some dogs can handle inbreeding more than others. Know of a guy that had dogs that were known for there mouth and ability, but the more he in/line bred upon his foundation dogs the more they lost those traits. Until he did a complete outcross. That brought the traits back....Very interesting topic this. Maybe somebody that have better knowledge in genetics can answer this?

[FrostyPaws]

Mouth is a trait. That is what you have to remember first and foremost. If you want dogs that have a certain type of mouth on a regular basis, then you have to breed dogs with that type of mouth. If you're inbreeding on dogs that don't have that type of mouth, then it's not something you'll get with any consistent basis. When one dog pops out with the devastating mouth, and if that's what you're really shooting for, then you breed that dog. Whatever dogs come off him with that same or close to the same mouth, you breed those, and so forth and so on through a different breeding combination.

Eventually, if you're selecting (the major idea) the right dogs, then you'll start to cement that trait more and more.

[FrostyPaws]

Lol. You're right about her knowing more about dogs than her husband. One other skill they had was cropping their dogs ears. They sure got that skill down to the T. Everyone of their dogs had the exact same ear crop and they got some nice looking game dogs. I saw those pair you mentioned when they were young. Sarah told me they were badass dogs but at the time I didn't see any scars on them so I didn't think they were any good. I always wanted to hook up with her to acquire another dog but I lost contact with her.

You're right about the ear cropping. They could do that better than anyone, vets included, I've ever run across. Maggie won once and had trouble from there on out. Buck lost his only show. Maggie produced a decent dog here and there, but those dogs were more inconsistent in what they produced more than anything else.

[skipper]

Mouth is a trait. That is what you have to remember first and foremost. If you want dogs that have a certain type of mouth on a regular basis, then you have to breed dogs with that type of mouth. If you're inbreeding on dogs that don't have that type of mouth, then it's not something you'll get with any consistent basis. When one dog pops out with the devastating mouth, and if that's what you're really shooting for, then you breed that dog. Whatever dogs come off him with that same or close to the same mouth, you breed those, and so forth and so on through a different breeding combination.

Eventually, if you're selecting (the major idea) the right dogs, then you'll start to cement that trait more and more.



Yes there is no argument that mouth is a trait. However, when heavily inbred some lines loose their traits, even when they are all bred around animals with great mouth. This is what I can't explain. Why inbreeding can weaken those very traits you bred for in the first place. Maybe Jack or Evo who has bred a bigger amount of animals know more?

[FrostyPaws]

They don't lose the mouth because they're heavily inbred, at least not as a whole. They lose the mouth because those dogs haven't been selected for that trait for some generations.

If you take dog A that has a heavy mouth, who is NOT from a line of dogs noted for that, then you're not going to recreate that over and over inside of a few breedings. You have to SELECT that type of mouth over and over to solidify it along the way. Without doing that, it won't ever be where it needs to be.

If you take dog A that has a heavy mouth, who IS from a line of dogs noted for that and has produced it consistently, breeding dog A to other females that have the same trait will get you dogs like you want.

If you heavily inbreed on dogs without selecting for that trait, it's going to be lost. That is the key. Selecting dogs with that trait. It's not the inbreeding; it's the wrong selection for the most part.

[Officially Retired]

I pretty much agree with everything FrostyPaws is saying.

The people who "lose" the traits they're breeding for only do so because they are not selecting the right individuals to inbreed on. They are inbreeding either on dogs that do NOT have the desired trait and/or on dogs that do not throw that trait.

Almost without exception, the very best dogs I have ever owned were inbred dogs ... and so, too, have some of the lamest dogs. I have inbred on the wrong dogs before ... and I have also inbred on the right dogs before.

Further still, even if you inbreed on the right dogs, you still have to be selective in the pups you choose. All inbreeding does is INTENSIFY TRAITS. Some of your inbred pups will have all the SHIT in their gene pool intensified ... while some of the pups will have all of the GOLD intensified ... and so it will be up to you to "flush the shit" and carry forward with the gold :)

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I pretty much agree with everything FrostyPaws is saying.

The people who "lose" the traits they're breeding for only do so because they are not selecting the right individuals to inbreed on. They are inbreeding either on dogs that do NOT have the desired trait and/or on dogs that do not throw that trait.

Almost without exception, the very best dogs I have ever bred ad kept were inbred dogs ... and so, too, have some of the lamest dogs. I (like anyone) have inbred on the wrong dogs before ... but unlike many I have also inbred on the right dogs before.

Further still, and something so many people forget, even if you inbreed on the right dogs, you still have to be selective in the pups you choose. They will not all be the same "genetically." Keeping in mind that all inbreeding does is INTENSIFY TRAITS, a person must remember that some of your inbred pups will have all the SHIT in their gene pool intensified through the inbreeding ... while some of the pups will have all of the GOLD intensified ... and so it will be up to each person to be selective and "flush the shit" and carry forward with the gold :)

Jack

[skipper]

Thnx for your answers, very interesting.