TRIBULUS = FERTILITY & REPRODUCTION

[Officially Retired]

Trish & I have actually been talking about having a baby, and since we're both biologically a little past our primes (though we don't feel like it :mrgreen:), I have started researching supplements ... and, of course, the first thing I started researching was good ol' Tribulus terrestris. Now, I have long known that Tribulus is a great reproductive supplement, and I have peripherally known that it is one of the rare supplements that can increase BOTH male and female reproductivity ... but what I didn't know is how it works, exactly, for both sexes. So I thought I would share the information on one of the better-organized articles on the subject (since I didn't have the time to write my own):


Tribulus terrestris
Copied from This Site (http://natural-fertility-info.com/tribulus-fertility.html)

"While there are not many herbs that have been show to benefit both male and female fertility, this is one of them. Tribulus has been used as a traditional fertility herb for years, in both Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda. Traditional healing practices are rooted in time tested results, but scientific researchers in Bulgaria wanted to know how this herb really works. Several studies have been conducted to find out how Tribulus aids fertility, for both men and women.

"Studies show the following fertility benefits:
Increase in sex hormone production in both men and women.
Increase in serum FSH and estridiol in women.
Increase in LH and testosterone in men.
Improvement in sexual desire in both men and women.
May normalize ovulation in infertile women when used prior to ovulation.
Increase in sperm count, motility, and health.
Decrease in the effects of antisperm antibodies.
Overall fertility tonic for male and female reproductive system.
May aid the male body in producing DHEA to treat erectile dysfunction.

"Tribulus for Male Fertility
Erectile Dysfunction
The main part of Tribulus, that aids in fertility for men, is a constituent called protodioscin. This constituent improves DHEA levels in the male body. In men with ED, it has been found they have low levels of DHEA. Some studies have shown that protodioscin, extracted from Tribulus, increases natural DHEA levels needed for proper erection. Protodioscin is also the main constituent that is responsible for Tribulus’ aphrodisiac qualities. Increase in sexual desire when using this plant has been reported by both men and women.

"Antisperm Antibodies
A study in 1998, performed in Bulgaria, using Tribulus on couples with antisperm antibodies, found a 61% increase in conception. Antisperm antibodies are when the body has an immune response to semen. Antibodies are triggered during the immune response that work to kill off the sperm. High numbers of sperm antibodies can make it difficult for the sperm to reach the egg, and/or fertilize the egg. Antisperm antibodies also may damage sperm that survive, which increases chance of miscarriage. An extract, made into a tablet of Tribulus terrestris was given orally to couples with antisperm antibodies. Both the man and woman were treated. Men received 1 dose, 3 times a day for 60 days. Women received 1 dose, 3 times a day for 7 days, in the beginning of their cycle, for 6 months. The average time it took for couples to conceive was 5.2 months. This shows that consistency of use is very important!

"In addition, TCM and Ayurvedic practitioners have found Tribulus to be very effective in improving sperm count, motility, and morphology when combined with dietary and exercise changes.

"Tribulus for Female Fertility
Using Tribulus for Female Fertility and Ovulation Stimulation
One study performed on 36 women who were not ovulating, showed that that 67% realized normal ovulation after only 2-3 months of consistent use. The women were give 300-400mg a day, from day 5-14 of their menstrual cycle. 6% became pregnant right away.

"A rat study using Tribulus, published in Aug. 2011, showed that Tribulus reduced the number of cysts in the ovaries, in female rats with PCOS. High doses of the extract were administered orally. The treatment showed the ovarian cysts to have significantly decreased, and normal ovarian function restored. While this was not a human study, it gives scientists more research to use when considering this herb for treatment of PCOS in humans. Many herbalists find Tribulus is an effective, overall female fertility tonic and ovarian stimulant, making it an excellent choice for women with PCOS. This is especially true for women who are not ovulating due to PCOS.

"This herb has been found to be wonderful in aiding women with menstrual irregularities, improving timing of the entire menstrual cycle. Tribulus has also been found to be a nourishing tonic for the female reproductive system as a whole, especially concerning the ovaries.

"Tribulus combines well with other herbs. See below for herbal combinations…..
The following herbs have been shown safe and effective when combined with Tribulus.
Lack of libido: Damiana, Maca
Male Sexual Dysfunction: Korean Ginseng, Saw Palmetto, Maca or Ashwaganda
Female Tonic for Reproductive Health: Shatavari, Maca

"Traditional Suggested Dosage of Tribulus terrestris
Capsule: 500mg a day to start, working up to a 1500mg a day as needed. (For dogs, probably 1/3rd of this.)
Tincture: 3-5 mL, 2 times a day.

"For Men: Has been shown best to use all month long, 3-6 months.
For Women: Has been shown best to use from day 5-14 of the cycle, not past ovulation. Tribulus should not be used during pregnancy.

"Safety of Tribulus Use: Pregnancy Caution
Many studies have been conducted using Tribulus. No adverse effects have been reported in humans, even with long-term use, with the exception of gastrointestinal upset in some people after 6 months of consistent use. Despite safety, there have been some reports by Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioners warning not to use Tribulus during pregnancy. Tribulus is not recommended for use during pregnancy. A woman who is trying to conceive should only use this herb prior to ovulation. Tribulus has been shown to cause or contribute to cholestsis when used during pregnancy. Cholestasis is a liver disease that only happens during pregnancy. In women who develop cholestasis, the normal flow of bile from the gallbladder is affected by very high levels of pregnancy hormones. The gallbladder holds bile from the liver, aiding in the breakdown of fats for digestion. Cholestasis slows this function down, which may cause bile acids to spill into the blood stream."



Summary & Conclusion
My Own

I am still looking for Government- & University-published studies on Tribulus, to separate fact from quackery, but there seems to be an almost universal consensus that Tribulus indeed does positively effect both male and female fertility. The key two points of dosing Tribulus properly for our dogs essentially boil down to this:


1) Give your males Tribulus for 3 months straight, then a 1 month break;
2) Only give your females Tribulus while they're ovulating (say, Day 10-14 in their heat cycle), and that's it!

I wish I would have researched this in as much detail years ago, as maybe some of my less-fertile females might have been able to conceive more pups for me, but I thought I would share this finding with everybody now, as I think it may well prove to be quite helpful.

Cheers,

Jack

[bulldogsrus]

I have had great results using sperm-up on an old stud dog that I couldnt get pups off.

[QCKLime]

What about the bitches I have that simply refuse to come into heat altogether? In the past it's been recommended that I give them Tribulus, would you not still suggest this after this research, even though it says it's been shown to help moderate menstrual irregularities?

[Officially Retired]

I honestly don't know.

I do know that natural Vitamin E (via wheat germ oil) is recommended, and I would imagine just trying tribulus for a month or so wouldn't hurt. I also know that 67% of women who were NOT producing eggs did so after taking tribulus ...

The only caution with bitches is while pregnant.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Try sending your bitch to another yard for a month. Puke hadn't been in heat for over a year, and no sooner than she goes to my partner's house, she's in heat within a month. She was bred yesterday. Same thing with another daughter of Frosty that I have here.

[QCKLime]

I've done just about everything I can think of with these bitches, and I use that term in the derogatory rather than technical sense. I've moved them from another yard to the one they're on now, I've changed their feed, I've harassed them with males and other females who were in heat, I've let them have a little hunt... nothing is inspiring these bitches to start bleeding. BLAH.

[tasoschatz]

Usually these herbs work only in subjects that have problems due to age or other pathological reasons. If I were you I would first do a few tests to determine my general situation and then think about supplementation. Tribulus is well known for many years now in certain circles but it went mainstream after the sports nutrition gurus explored the field. Many athletes did not benefit at all from its use. Basically they tried to substitute HCG supplementation with tribulus.
If I was to use it, I would try to find original tribestan, I always prefer what has standarised quantities of the working substances since I feel that herbs collected from all over the world that developed in different environment, do not produce the same results. Ofcourse, because I think this way, for imediate results I would favor hcg, but this is another story.
Good luck reproducing a new young John, are you sure the world will be big enough for both of you ? lol.

[evolutionkennels]

I've done just about everything I can think of with these bitches, and I use that term in the derogatory rather than technical sense. I've moved them from another yard to the one they're on now, I've changed their feed, I've harassed them with males and other females who were in heat, I've let them have a little hunt... nothing is inspiring these bitches to start bleeding. BLAH.

Give them raw red meat for 3 weeks, with flax seed oil (cold pressed), tripe, and a few baby potatoes. Also bring her in the house in a crate. All animals have a primary function of survival. The secondary function is to reproduce. There was an experiment done with guppie fish. They had three separate tanks, one tank had a bunch of fish with two predators in the same tank, the other had the guppie fish with No predators, the 3rd had the tank with a fish they "LOOKED" like the predatory fish but was Not. As you could guess... the reproductive rate in the tank with No predators was twice as much as the one with predators and 50% more than the pseudo predator. As a secondary effect,the tank with the fish that were without predator were brightly colored, the ones that were with predator were all dandy brown to blend with the sand at the bottom to evade predators, the one with fake predators were half and half. This makes sense. Animals have a finite amount of resources to allocate for survival and reproduction. But make No mistake... survival is first, reproduction is second. So.. put your bitches in a stress free environment, once thirty bodies feel relaxed, they can allocate resources for reproductive purposes.

[Officially Retired]

Usually these herbs work only in subjects that have problems due to age or other pathological reasons. If I were you I would first do a few tests to determine my general situation and then think about supplementation. Tribulus is well known for many years now in certain circles but it went mainstream after the sports nutrition gurus explored the field. Many athletes did not benefit at all from its use. Basically they tried to substitute HCG supplementation with tribulus.

Athletes benefiting athletically, and a man or woman benefiting fertility-wise, are two entirely different topics my friend.

In other words, a supplement benefiting anabolic hormones, and it benefiting leutenizing hormones, is not the same thing.

Like you, I have also read that tribulus may well have no benefits as a muscle-builder, but its reported benefits to fertility are pretty much unanimous.




If I was to use it, I would try to find original tribestan, I always prefer what has standarised quantities of the working substances since I feel that herbs collected from all over the world that developed in different environment, do not produce the same results.

I totally agree with your position on this. Good point.




Of course, because I think this way, for imediate results I would favor hcg, but this is another story.


I am not looking to run a bunch of hormones into either myself, or my girl, as there is no "problem" either one of us is having (that we know of). We have only just started talking about this subject and have just begun to "try" naturally. At this point, I am only interested in nutritional supplements, for both health as well as for increased likelihood of conception. We're both in great shape for our age and certainly are not in need of therapy at this point :mrgreen:




Good luck reproducing a new young John, are you sure the world will be big enough for both of you ? lol.

LMAO, good point, and that is definitely something I should consider :lol:

My mom predicts that I will have a daughter "exactly like (I am)" ... who will worry me into baldness as a father :rotflmao:

Cheers,

Jack

[SteelyDan]

I assume the point of cycling off Trib is to allow the dogs body and hormones to go back to its "normal" state?

[tasoschatz]

To some extend it mimicks the action of hcg. By it self hcg could be the best hormone out there since it is the precusor of all the hormones in the body. The perfect results are those achieved in a hormonal state similar to that existing naturally in the body, this is why the stronger androgenic steroids are those who also aromatize into estrogens, plain and simple with estrogens the androgenics work better. Bottom line with hcg you up the total hormonal environment of the body which is best. Unfortunatelly the body will try to adapt and find its balance by limiting the natural production of testosterone while estrogens will remain in circulation.
Since tribestan works in similar ways, milder ofcourse, it is a good idea to cycle its use and give the body the chance to return to its natural balance. Not only that, but then, when you use it you will be able to notice a difference, a "push" if I may say so.

[Limey Kennels]

I honestly don't know.

I do know that natural Vitamin E (via wheat germ oil) is recommended, and I would imagine just trying tribulus for a month or so wouldn't hurt. I also know that 67% of women who were NOT producing eggs did so after taking tribulus ...

The only caution with bitches is while pregnant.

Jack
Jack indeed Natural white e (not the syntetic one) in combination with raspberry leafs for bitches and yes performer rpm health tonic works ecseptional on biches amd males(skip the raspberry leafs on the males) both the males and biches wil get the highest production of egs and sperm for the males. large litters and very healthy big pups come from these combination .

for the critics here is a list of the amino acids that are presend in the tonic. do a google chek on them and find out what they do...
Contens (pr liter) litle bit more then a quarter
Amino Acid Analysis (grms per litre)
Proline 3.2
Cysteine 0.7
Serine 4.2
Glutaminic Acid 8.4
Thre onine 3.4
Histidine 7.1
Tryptophan 1.2
Isoleucine 0.6
Alanine 8.5
Lysine 8.8
Aminoacetic Acid 4.6
Methionine 0.8
Leucine 13.1
Valine 9.5
Arginine 4.1
Phenylalanine 6.9
Asparatic Acid 11.4
Tyrosine 2.2Calcium 40mg
Folic Acid 250mg
Sodium 3.3g
Vitamin B12 4.0mg
Protein 100g
Iron 250mg
Carbohydrates 550g

[Officially Retired]

Thanks Limey.

[pig mad]

Also the product from bulgaria is the best and the root is better than the fruit as i rushed out and just got what it said in the bible i got poor product i have no idea were it is from and it has more fruit and leaves than root. Being banished did me good i did my own homework.

[Officially Retired]

Also the product from bulgaria is the best and the root is better than the fruit as i rushed out and just got what it said in the bible i got poor product i have no idea were it is from and it has more fruit and leaves than root. Being banished did me good i did my own homework.

Having the book gave you the idea of tribulus to begin with ... and told you what to go research :idea:

[evolutionkennels]

I've done just about everything I can think of with these bitches, and I use that term in the derogatory rather than technical sense. I've moved them from another yard to the one they're on now, I've changed their feed, I've harassed them with males and other females who were in heat, I've let them have a little hunt... nothing is inspiring these bitches to start bleeding. BLAH.

Try putting her in a crate. A lot of times these crazy bitches that are non stop chain runners or kennel bouncers just don't have the resources to start the cycle. I would do this, keep her in a crate, work her hard on the mill or Jenny twice a week... Get to where she can blast out 30 minutes... No more than that, keep her in the garage in a crate where she can't burn off all calories, and feed her some raw beef and wheat hermana oil as a part of her daily food.

[Limey Kennels]

In the old days they used the training/ health the tegnic called ""Flush"". they would get a compleat out of shape bich and workt her for a considereble amound of time and got al the worms and crap out of the bitch. and put her in a great state of health. combined with the above supps they come in heat quik and have a real good heat cicle..

[OGDOGG]

Try putting her in a crate. A lot of times these crazy bitches that are non stop chain runners or kennel bouncers just don't have the resources to start the cycle. I would do this, keep her in a crate, work her hard on the mill or Jenny twice a week... Get to where she can blast out 30 minutes... No more than that, keep her in the garage in a crate where she can't burn off all calories, and feed her some raw beef and wheat hermana oil as a part of her daily food. works every time for me too

[Cuzzo]

Trish & I have actually been talking about having a baby, and since we're both biologically a little past our primes (though we don't feel like it :mrgreen:), I have started researching supplements ... and, of course, the first thing I started researching was good ol' Tribulus terrestris. Now, I have long known that Tribulus is a great reproductive supplement, and I have peripherally known that it is one of the rare supplements that can increase BOTH male and female reproductivity ... but what I didn't know is how it works, exactly, for both sexes. So I thought I would share the information on one of the better-organized articles on the subject (since I didn't have the time to write my own):


Tribulus terrestris
Copied from This Site (http://natural-fertility-info.com/tribulus-fertility.html)

"While there are not many herbs that have been show to benefit both male and female fertility, this is one of them. Tribulus has been used as a traditional fertility herb for years, in both Traditional Chinese Medicine and Ayurveda. Traditional healing practices are rooted in time tested results, but scientific researchers in Bulgaria wanted to know how this herb really works. Several studies have been conducted to find out how Tribulus aids fertility, for both men and women.

"Studies show the following fertility benefits:
Increase in sex hormone production in both men and women.
Increase in serum FSH and estridiol in women.
Increase in LH and testosterone in men.
Improvement in sexual desire in both men and women.
May normalize ovulation in infertile women when used prior to ovulation.
Increase in sperm count, motility, and health.
Decrease in the effects of antisperm antibodies.
Overall fertility tonic for male and female reproductive system.
May aid the male body in producing DHEA to treat erectile dysfunction.

"Tribulus for Male Fertility
Erectile Dysfunction
The main part of Tribulus, that aids in fertility for men, is a constituent called protodioscin. This constituent improves DHEA levels in the male body. In men with ED, it has been found they have low levels of DHEA. Some studies have shown that protodioscin, extracted from Tribulus, increases natural DHEA levels needed for proper erection. Protodioscin is also the main constituent that is responsible for Tribulus’ aphrodisiac qualities. Increase in sexual desire when using this plant has been reported by both men and women.

"Antisperm Antibodies
A study in 1998, performed in Bulgaria, using Tribulus on couples with antisperm antibodies, found a 61% increase in conception. Antisperm antibodies are when the body has an immune response to semen. Antibodies are triggered during the immune response that work to kill off the sperm. High numbers of sperm antibodies can make it difficult for the sperm to reach the egg, and/or fertilize the egg. Antisperm antibodies also may damage sperm that survive, which increases chance of miscarriage. An extract, made into a tablet of Tribulus terrestris was given orally to couples with antisperm antibodies. Both the man and woman were treated. Men received 1 dose, 3 times a day for 60 days. Women received 1 dose, 3 times a day for 7 days, in the beginning of their cycle, for 6 months. The average time it took for couples to conceive was 5.2 months. This shows that consistency of use is very important!

"In addition, TCM and Ayurvedic practitioners have found Tribulus to be very effective in improving sperm count, motility, and morphology when combined with dietary and exercise changes.

"Tribulus for Female Fertility
Using Tribulus for Female Fertility and Ovulation Stimulation
One study performed on 36 women who were not ovulating, showed that that 67% realized normal ovulation after only 2-3 months of consistent use. The women were give 300-400mg a day, from day 5-14 of their menstrual cycle. 6% became pregnant right away.

"A rat study using Tribulus, published in Aug. 2011, showed that Tribulus reduced the number of cysts in the ovaries, in female rats with PCOS. High doses of the extract were administered orally. The treatment showed the ovarian cysts to have significantly decreased, and normal ovarian function restored. While this was not a human study, it gives scientists more research to use when considering this herb for treatment of PCOS in humans. Many herbalists find Tribulus is an effective, overall female fertility tonic and ovarian stimulant, making it an excellent choice for women with PCOS. This is especially true for women who are not ovulating due to PCOS.

"This herb has been found to be wonderful in aiding women with menstrual irregularities, improving timing of the entire menstrual cycle. Tribulus has also been found to be a nourishing tonic for the female reproductive system as a whole, especially concerning the ovaries.

"Tribulus combines well with other herbs. See below for herbal combinations…..
The following herbs have been shown safe and effective when combined with Tribulus.
Lack of libido: Damiana, Maca
Male Sexual Dysfunction: Korean Ginseng, Saw Palmetto, Maca or Ashwaganda
Female Tonic for Reproductive Health: Shatavari, Maca

"Traditional Suggested Dosage of Tribulus terrestris
Capsule: 500mg a day to start, working up to a 1500mg a day as needed. (For dogs, probably 1/3rd of this.)
Tincture: 3-5 mL, 2 times a day.

"For Men: Has been shown best to use all month long, 3-6 months.
For Women: Has been shown best to use from day 5-14 of the cycle, not past ovulation. Tribulus should not be used during pregnancy.

"Safety of Tribulus Use: Pregnancy Caution
Many studies have been conducted using Tribulus. No adverse effects have been reported in humans, even with long-term use, with the exception of gastrointestinal upset in some people after 6 months of consistent use. Despite safety, there have been some reports by Traditional Chinese Medicine practitioners warning not to use Tribulus during pregnancy. Tribulus is not recommended for use during pregnancy. A woman who is trying to conceive should only use this herb prior to ovulation. Tribulus has been shown to cause or contribute to cholestsis when used during pregnancy. Cholestasis is a liver disease that only happens during pregnancy. In women who develop cholestasis, the normal flow of bile from the gallbladder is affected by very high levels of pregnancy hormones. The gallbladder holds bile from the liver, aiding in the breakdown of fats for digestion. Cholestasis slows this function down, which may cause bile acids to spill into the blood stream."



Summary & Conclusion
My Own

I am still looking for Government- & University-published studies on Tribulus, to separate fact from quackery, but there seems to be an almost universal consensus that Tribulus indeed does positively effect both male and female fertility. The key two points of dosing Tribulus properly for our dogs essentially boil down to this:


1) Give your males Tribulus for 3 months straight, then a 1 month break;
2) Only give your females Tribulus while they're ovulating (say, Day 10-14 in their heat cycle), and that's it!

I wish I would have researched this in as much detail years ago, as maybe some of my less-fertile females might have been able to conceive more pups for me, but I thought I would share this finding with everybody now, as I think it may well prove to be quite helpful.

Cheers,

Jack hey jack how much of that would you give a male in keep and would it be beneficial to the hound if so in what way ?

[Cuzzo]

Using Tribulus in a keep can it be beneficial to the hound and if so whats the benefits and how much would you give?

[Officially Retired]

hey jack how much of that would you give a male in keep and would it be beneficial to the hound if so in what way ?

That is listed in my keep :)

I don't know if there is some set standard as to "how much," but 625mg orally should be fine.

[Cuzzo]

@jack is your keep on this board or a link to it I want to know the benefits of Tribulus in a keep ...

[Officially Retired]

No, it is in my book.

[Cuzzo]

@jack i got your dvd on the raw feeding and it dont show nothing about adding tribulus in your food can you post a link on it and what benifits the dog will get from using it ...

[Officially Retired]

It's on the 20 Years of Breeding Secrets DVD (http://www.sportingdogcentral.com/DVDs/20years.html), not the Raw DVD (http://www.sportingdogcentral.com/DVDs/raw.html) ...

[montycash]

I want to let everyone know If you follow Jacks book On Fertility on the stud dog . I have to say i used it on a stud dog that i didn't know the age of but had to of been at least 10yrs or 12 yrs human life and i followed his guideline as directed. And i was successful with getting His final litter but due to me taking him off and slacking up on a Major breeding I was unsuccessful the second time. His book and instructions are very simple if you don't understand just reread it a couple of times before you start doing something that you don't understand. I like all have all jack Publications and DVDs i have slacked being lazy and when i sit down and research his books and the books he inform you that should be in your arsenal Please GET! im in the process of Acquiring them all WHY??? More knowledge more access to solutions to your problems

[Officially Retired]

That is #^@&!*% awesome, dude, glad to hear you were successful at least once.

Remember, nothing lasts forever, even in the most ideal of circumstances ... but if you can stack the deck in your favor for even just a little bit of time, and profit from it, then more power to you :mrgreen:

Cheers :cheers:

[The Old Timer.]

I've done just about everything I can think of with these bitches, and I use that term in the derogatory rather than technical sense. I've moved them from another yard to the one they're on now, I've changed their feed, I've harassed them with males and other females who were in heat, I've let them have a little hunt... nothing is inspiring these bitches to start bleeding. BLAH.

from my experience it is best to move them to another yard that has a bitch in season, moving them to another yard will not make a difference, I can only speak for myself and other dog men that I work with.

[jesse]

Queston? I have a female in heat now, about 5 days in. when she was last bred she had 2 pups, I was wondering if i started giving her a tribulus terrestris supplement. which kind would i give.
ans would this brand be one from a health food or GNC type store......? I have one on hand that i use and each pill is 1500mg tribulus terrestris.....I am taking from your post i should give 1/3 of a pill, which
would be approx. close to 500mg each day.....I would really like to try this out, any info you could pass on, would be great.
thx jack

[Officially Retired]

You have to give the tribulus the day they come in heat I believe.

[LEFTLANE]

Jack,
First post says to give to gyp days 10-14. Last post says day they go into heat.

?????

[Officially Retired]

Follow the first post, the last one was off the top of my head, the first one was after doing the research.

Remember, I am never wrong. Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken :lol:

[LEFTLANE]

I found 90-1000mg pills at gnc for 20 bucks so im gonna try it on the 9-14 days of the heat and see if it helps throw me a good size litter on my bitch that only comes in once a year. Ill do 1/3 a pill. Her first litter was 8 and second was 6. Im hoping for 8 again this time.

[LEFTLANE]

Bred a bitch, her first breeding, used tribulus. Got 8 healthy pups, 4 males 4 females.

[CRISIS]

so is the dosage for females the same as for males?

[bullyson]

hook her and put up a forfeit i guarantee shell be bleeding one week out LOL....

[SHOWBOX]

:shocked:
Follow the first post, the last one was off the top of my head, the first one was after doing the research.

Remember, I am never wrong. Once I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken :lol:

LMBO, it's what I tell my wife and kids. :rotflmao:

SHOWBOX
showboxkennels@yahoo.com

[Buckgator]

Clomiphene?