conditioning on raw ( water in take)

[R2L]

I've got a dog who has always been on kibbles. I'm feeding my dogs raw though so i switched him too.
His previous owner says the dog drinks like a camel so he would give him 700 ML of water a day.
I don't know better then to always have unlimited water available for the dogs. So that's what im doing. I think he will lose interest soon and only starts drinking when he really needs to. My other dogs are on the same food and they rarely drink something extra, mostly after a walk on a hot day.

Now the previous owner says there is no way i can make his weight correct feeding the dog raw. To much water.....
Id say less water but i can't get anything informative out of him. His english is not so good and he says its hard to explain.
Is there anything important i should know about how the water in raw food is hold by the body compared to drinking tap water out of a bowl?

Also i get allot of comments about getting the water out a dog before a show on raw. I guess you guys wouldn't feed it if it was so difficult. Any tips you guys can give me how to handle this best the last few days.

Thanks

[Officially Retired]

IMO, this guy's understanding of the world is bass-ackwards, so I wouldn't bother worrying about getting any (mis)information out of him at all.

My own belief is exactly the opposite of his, in that it is my firm belief that you can never get to a dog's lowest weight feeding kibble ... and that only by feeding raw can you get to a true best and lowest weight.

I also believe that "removing water" from a dog's diet in order to decrease the weight of a dog is only a problem for those who feed kibble. Why? Because kibble-feeders always have dogs that are drinking 10x the water that a raw-fed dog takes in. Therefore, I am in complete agreement with you that you don't need to worry about water intake when feeding raw, precisely because raw-fed dogs hardly drink any water. (I also believe that "drying out" a dog to make weight isn't very good for the dog at all anyway.)

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Eventually he'll stop drinking water just like your other dogs. It is actually easier to find out a dogs pit weight feeding raw than kibbles because within 24 hours, he would've pissed a lot of it out already, and raw is easier to absorb and digest than kibble. Anyone feeding raw for awhile knows that if you miss a feed or two, your dog will look like its been starving for days.
I don't understand why anyone would want to dehydrate their dog before a show? I wouldnt want to be dehydrated if I was gonna step in the ring, any athlete wouldn't. I know why they do it though, so their dogs won't run hot and wont bleed as much. If you have a good keep, you won't have to dehydrate your dog cause he won't run hot. When I put one in a keep, I fill their bowl up with water along with their feed and that's all the water they'll get until the next feed. That should be more than enough water for them for 24 hours. I'd test their hydration by pulling the skin on their back, if it's slow like 2-3 seconds, I know they're dehydrated, so I add more water to their feed. Water is by far the most important source for your dog so don't hold back.

[R2L]

Thanks for the replies Jack and ogdogg, needed some support on my believes. Everybody is saying something else.... mostly ignorant i guess.

@ Ogdogg, does it mean you take away the bowl whole keep?

I don't believe people dehydrate their dogs but they do want to lose some excessive water by cutting on the water last 1 or 2 days. Same like you look how much water your dog needs. I guess you also do this because you don't want your dogs to have to much water in them, and so you dont know their exact weight?
Some people giving their dogs dexafort a day before the show, they can lose up to 500 gr in 1 day. I believe thats more like an "makeshift" if the dog is to high in weight.

[OGDOGG]

I don't leave bowls of water for the dogs period. Only if I have them on the chain then I'll leave a bowl of water for them because its the law. Even then, my dogs won't drink any anyway. The only way I can get them to drink water is when I'm feeding them. That's when Ill fill their bowl 3/4 of water plus their food in a medium size bowl. That'll keep them hydrate for 24 hours. So yes I take away their bowl of water during their keep, but when they eat, they had enough water to last them until tomorrow. I know exactly what you're talking about when you mentioned dex. That's one way of bringing in your dog to make weight but let me be the one to tell you that that's also another way for you to lose a match. When you're using dex before the show, you're dog is constantly losing moisture, if he can seal the deal in short order like around 30 minutes or less then it'll be fine. But if he can't then hell be in trouble and will look thinner and thinner as the deal goes longer. By the hour mark, he'll look like a skeleton because he is dehydrated.
I do want as much water in them as long as they're willing to drink it. And in order for them to drink the water I have to add it to their feed. You could give them as much as you want, by the 24 hour mark, all that water in their system will be gone already so you'll get their pit weight every time you weigh them after they're empty.
I do this all through their keep until 24 hrs before the show. You want them to be hydrated during the show so they could last 2-3 hours strong! Throughout your keep you don't take water away from them so why would you do it 1-2 days before the show? It don't make sense.
Every time I put one in a keep, I am not aiming at a short deal, but instead a long deal like around 2-3 hours. So in order for my dog to last that long, he has to work 4-6 hours on his working days and in order for him to work that long, he has to be hydrated.

[FrostyPaws]

I feed dogs raw during keep. I also give them 1oz per lb of weight of water in their feed. 38 lb dog gets 38oz of water. While a dog hanging out on the chain, on raw, will definitely not drink as much as a dog being fed kibble, after a hard workout, he's going to need the extra water as that is what dog's mainly lose during their work out. They lose water. That's not counting the amount of water they lose through waste, through evaporation of just breathing, etc.

OG, you're right in the sense that's why people do that, but the reality is that they're hurting their dog more than helping. When a dog is dehydrated, the first place the extra fluid comes from is the blood. So that makes the blood more viscous, which in turn, makes it harder to pump. So while the consensus thought is less bleeding, it also means less O2 to the muscles as needed, it means slower clotting times. It means less cellular transportation of wastes. Hydration is the number 1 thing a person should worry about when working a dog. If the dog isn't properly hydrated, your dog is behind the 8ball from the start.

I agree with OG. My dogs, in keep, don't have a water bowl. They have the amount of water that is dictated by their weight, and that is all they get. During the last week, I pull off the excess water so they're not wringing wet, but they are plenty hydrated to perform at their optimum level.

[Officially Retired]

I don't leave bowls of water for the dogs period. Only if I have them on the chain then I'll leave a bowl of water for them because its the law. Even then, my dogs won't drink any anyway. The only way I can get them to drink water is when I'm feeding them. That's when Ill fill their bowl 3/4 of water plus their food in a medium size bowl. That'll keep them hydrate for 24 hours. So yes I take away their bowl of water during their keep, but when they eat, they had enough water to last them until tomorrow. I know exactly what you're talking about when you mentioned dex. That's one way of bringing in your dog to make weight but let me be the one to tell you that that's also another way for you to lose a match. When you're using dex before the show, you're dog is constantly losing moisture, if he can seal the deal in short order like around 30 minutes or less then it'll be fine. But if he can't then hell be in trouble and will look thinner and thinner as the deal goes longer. By the hour mark, he'll look like a skeleton because he is dehydrated.

Well said.





I do want as much water in them as long as they're willing to drink it. And in order for them to drink the water I have to add it to their feed. You could give them as much as you want, by the 24 hour mark, all that water in their system will be gone already so you'll get their pit weight every time you weigh them after they're empty.
I do this all through their keep until 24 hrs before the show. You want them to be hydrated during the show so they could last 2-3 hours strong! Throughout your keep you don't take water away from them so why would you do it 1-2 days before the show? It don't make sense.

Agreed.





Every time I put one in a keep, I am not aiming at a short deal, but instead a long deal like around 2-3 hours. So in order for my dog to last that long, he has to work 4-6 hours on his working days and in order for him to work that long, he has to be hydrated.

I am curious why you think a dog that goes 2-3 hours needs to be worked 4-6 hours?

Boxers in training for a 12-round fight do not "practice" by sparring for 24 rounds.
Sprinters who run a 100-yd dash do not "practice" for this event by running 200-yd dashes.

I guess if you add up all the training a boxer does during the day, it adds-up to more time than when he's actually in the ring, but even then they train several times a day (morning run, then mid-afternoon workout, them maybe sparring in the evening, etc.) They don't do it all in one large "block" of time.

So with that said I am curious, when you train your dogs, do you make them train for 6 hours straight or do you train them 6 hours total, at different times of the day?

Thanks for sharing,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I feed dogs raw during keep. I also give them 1oz per lb of weight of water in their feed. 38 lb dog gets 38oz of water.

Do you include the water weight already in their raw food, or are you strictly speaking of additional water weight above and beyond that?




While a dog hanging out on the chain, on raw, will definitely not drink as much as a dog being fed kibble, after a hard workout, he's going to need the extra water as that is what dog's mainly lose during their work out. They lose water. That's not counting the amount of water they lose through waste, through evaporation of just breathing, etc.

Excellent point.




OG, you're right in the sense that's why people do that, but the reality is that they're hurting their dog more than helping. When a dog is dehydrated, the first place the extra fluid comes from is the blood. So that makes the blood more viscous, which in turn, makes it harder to pump. So while the consensus thought is less bleeding, it also means less O2 to the muscles as needed, it means slower clotting times. It means less cellular transportation of wastes. Hydration is the number 1 thing a person should worry about when working a dog. If the dog isn't properly hydrated, your dog is behind the 8ball from the start.


Absolutely.




I agree with OG. My dogs, in keep, don't have a water bowl. They have the amount of water that is dictated by their weight, and that is all they get. During the last week, I pull off the excess water so they're not wringing wet, but they are plenty hydrated to perform at their optimum level.

Again, I am curious if the amount of water "dictated by their weight" is additional water to what's already in their raw feed, or if your regimen includes this water weight?

I agree and totally understand that a worked dog is going to need more water than a dog sitting on the chain ... and I agree that the general rule of thumb for dogs and hydration is 1 ounce of water per pound/day ... but what I am not clear about is how much water a worked dog actually needs ... nor any study that has made this determination.

If a rested dog needs 1oz per lb, then I wonder what the ideal amount of water is for a worked dog, or if all anyone can do is experiment with their own individual animals.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

Well said.





Agreed.





I am curious why you think a dog that goes 2-3 hours needs to be worked 4-6 hours?

Boxers in training for a 12-round fight do not "practice" by sparring for 24 rounds.
Sprinters who run a 100-yd dash do not "practice" for this event by running 200-yd dashes.

I guess if you add up all the training a boxer does during the day, it adds-up to more time than when he's actually in the ring, but even then they train several times a day (morning run, then mid-afternoon workout, them maybe sparring in the evening, etc.) They don't do it all in one large "block" of time.

So with that said I am curious, when you train your dogs, do you make them train for 6 hours straight or do you train them 6 hours total, at different times of the day?

Thanks for sharing,

Jack
The reason why I work them up to 6 hours is to prepare them for a long match. When I say 4-6 hours of work, it doesn't mean they're sprinting on the mill for 4-6 hours.
My working dogs are pre-kept already so I'll start with a 3 mile walk which it'll take me about 45 minutes, then put the dogs on the slat for 20 minutes. He'll peak at 15 miles. On days he's not walking, he'll be on the slat for 1 hours, pacing himself and peak at 3 hours. Also on slat mill days I would take them to the park where there's a steep hill and play fetch with a kong ball for 1 hour.

[R2L]

Ah now i understand Ogdogg, you want to give them all the water they need 24 houres before weighing them. Good solution which i think everyone agrees on here.

One thing. If i remember right from raw feeding boards; adding water to raw food makes it pass through the stumic faster which will leave less time for the nutrients to be incorporated into the body. What's you guys opinion on that?

Frosty, I think 1 oz a lb is allot of water for a dog who's being fed raw. Let's say im training a 46 lb dog. You're adding 1,36 liter water to the food?

Jack, i guess you can test it with a dog being worked. adding a certain value of water for one week, pull his skin. Decrease it by 100 ml the next week, check again?


ps: one more question. Do you guys keep feeding raw the days after a hunt. Or would some cooked rice and cooked chicken a few times a day be better on their stumic.

[OGDOGG]

ps: one more question. Do you guys keep feeding raw the days after a hunt. Or would some cooked rice and cooked chicken a few times a day be better on their stumic.
After the show, don't give him any thing that is high protein. Cooked rice should be his only solid with plenty of water. If he doesn't like it plain, add chicken broth to the rice. I feed them just rice and water for 3 days straight. If they look better after 3 days then I'll slowly add chicken without the bone.

[FrostyPaws]

Again, I am curious if the amount of water "dictated by their weight" is additional water to what's already in their raw feed, or if your regimen includes this water weight?

I agree and totally understand that a worked dog is going to need more water than a dog sitting on the chain ... and I agree that the general rule of thumb for dogs and hydration is 1 ounce of water per pound/day ... but what I am not clear about is how much water a worked dog actually needs ... nor any study that has made this determination.

If a rested dog needs 1oz per lb, then I wonder what the ideal amount of water is for a worked dog, or if all anyone can do is experiment with their own individual animals.

Jack

Jack, I only add the 1oz per pound when they're being conditioned. If they're just on the chain being dogs, they're allowed to drink whatever water they want freely. Yes, it is additional water. I can't say how much water a rested dog needs.

All I can give you is my input on how I've done this for some years now. What I've read is how much actual water is expended by working sled dogs. They take into account the amount of water lost when working, through excrement, and just through breathing. In a study done by Arleigh Reynolds, whose stuff I've posted here before, a working sled dog needs 2oz of water per lb of body weight. A sedentary house dog loses around 1200mL of water a day. A sprinting dog, such as a sled dog or a greyhound will lose almost 3000mL of water a day from an hour run and everything else. A long distance dog, such as a working sled dog, can lose over 5000mL a day. Those figures can and will fluctuate given the temperature and the intensity the dog works. If it's a cold day, he suggests water intake will increase by 2 for a sprinting dog and by 4 for a long distance endurance dog. Depending on the dog’s exercise intensity, and the environmental temperature and humidity, evaporative water losses may increase 10- to 20-fold during exercise. I will post what he has to say in a separate thread if you'd like so you can read all he has to say.

[FrostyPaws]

One thing. If i remember right from raw feeding boards; adding water to raw food makes it pass through the stumic faster which will leave less time for the nutrients to be incorporated into the body. What's you guys opinion on that?

Water helps speed up the digestion process. It's not that the food is going through so fast that it's not absorbed properly. It is simply helping the body perform that task at a faster and more efficient rate.




Frosty, I think 1 oz a lb is allot of water for a dog who's being fed raw. Let's say im training a 46 lb dog. You're adding 1,36 liter water to the food?

Yes, I'm adding 46oz of water to the dog's feed. Not long ago, I conditioned a 45lb dog, and he was getting 45 ounces of water, in his feed, everyday. After eating, he would be all filled with water, sure enough. He was also a very hard working dog who needed all the extra fluid given. When I would go out the next day to work the dog, he would usually weigh 46-47lbs. So, combined with the water and the feed and after him emptying out, he was only a lb or two above his show weight. While it may seem a little strange and sound odd, if I was only allowing the dog to drink what he wanted, he would never drink that amount of fluid in one sitting. He wouldn't drink that much fluid in one day, and given the work he was doing, he needed all of it for his body to function at a high level which is exactly what you need when it comes to showing dogs.

[Officially Retired]

That all makes sense, and yes I would be interested in the reading, thanks.

However, I am also wondering if all that extra water doesn't dilute the stomach acid and interfere with digestion?

[R2L]

Good posts Frosty.


A sedentary house dog loses around 1200mL of water a day.

I wonder how its possible that the one dog i have in the house only eats 400 gram of raw food a day, which is 240 ML of water and dont drink anything from his bowl for weeks. This is a 45 lb dog, i don't which type of dog they used for the research but i figure its not a 250 lbs dog.


Yes, I'm adding 46oz of water to the dog's feed. Not long ago, I conditioned a 45lb dog, and he was getting 45 ounces of water, in his feed, everyday. After eating, he would be all filled with water, sure enough. He was also a very hard working dog who needed all the extra fluid given. When I would go out the next day to work the dog, he would usually weigh 46-47lbs. So, combined with the water and the feed and after him emptying out, he was only a lb or two above his show weight.

No questioning your experience but have you ever tried to give like 30oz of water for such a dog in training and check his skin count?

[FrostyPaws]

Sure R2L. I used to do that. I used to just let them drink the water they wanted from the bowl also. What I had was a dog that was hydrated, but I didn't think it was hydrated enough for the work. The dog being worked now is getting 38oz, and there are days where that's not enough water for him. So, a friend of mine introduced me to the 1oz per lb method some years ago, and since then, I've never thought about doing it any other way as most dogs are adequately hydrated with that method.

I have a friend who gives 20-30oz of water in his feed during keep. I don't know his dogs looks as he lives thousands of miles from me, but I know he wants to try it the way I do it also, and I'm about sure he's going to the next dog he works.

In their study, I'm sure they're using an example of a dog that eats kibble. My house dog eats kibble, and she doesn't drink a ton of water every day. Sedentary dog could be outside also. It's not an across the board number as each situation will be different.

[Dogman]

Like I said before on the "Heat is on topic" if you add WATER to your feed whether it be raw or kibble it WILL hydrate your dog, that simple.

[FrostyPaws]

That all makes sense, and yes I would be interested in the reading, thanks.

However, I am also wondering if all that extra water doesn't dilute the stomach acid and interfere with digestion?

Jack, if I'm not mistaken, the extra water is absorbed in the intestines not the stomach. The stomach breaks down the food, and the ingestion of all vital parts of food happens in the intestines.

[OGDOGG]

R2L, the secret to a successful keep is H20;)
Since my dogs don't like to drink too much water, what I'll do is 12 hours before their workouts I'll put a small amount of rice in their bowl and fill it up with water. They could see the rice but can't get to it so they'll drink most of the water then I'll take it away when they're almost to the bottom. Gets them every time:lol:

[scary]

R2L, the secret to a successful keep is H20;)
Since my dogs don't like to drink too much water, what I'll do is 12 hours before their workouts I'll put a small amount of rice in their bowl and fill it up with water. They could see the rice but can't get to it so they'll drink most of the water then I'll take it away when they're almost to the bottom. Gets them every time:lol:

How much o.g a like a couple spoons full? And sorry for sounding like a retard but I'm assuming already cooked rice?

[R2L]

Frosty, why exactly did you think the dog wasnt hydrated enough with less then 1 oz a lb, when its skincount was alright and the dog seemed hydrated.? Just trying to understand.

Do you add 1oz a lb trough out your whole keep? I guess i can give less when still building up the work. And how about the day before the show?


Thanks all, this has been very usefull for me. Good tip on the food Ogdogg, i was thinking about their stumic and forgetting about the kidney's ;)

[Officially Retired]

Jack, if I'm not mistaken, the extra water is absorbed in the intestines not the stomach. The stomach breaks down the food, and the ingestion of all vital parts of food happens in the intestines.

Water is actually absorbed everywhere in the digestive tract. And (according to something I remember reading) the trouble with giving too much water while the dog is eating is this: the water goes in the stomach first, diluting the acid (and thus the initial breakdown of food) while it's all being contained in the stomach.

Jack

Edit/PS: I guess what I am saying is, I think it is a better idea to give all that water in the AM, 12 hours before the work/show, rather than after the workout. If the dog needs the hydration to perform optimally, giving it after his workout (and possibly diluting his digestion) doesn't make as much sense as giving that same water in the AM, allowing it to be processed (and him to be hydrated) by the PM work.

[Officially Retired]

R2L, the secret to a successful keep is H20;)
Since my dogs don't like to drink too much water, what I'll do is 12 hours before their workouts I'll put a small amount of rice in their bowl and fill it up with water. They could see the rice but can't get to it so they'll drink most of the water then I'll take it away when they're almost to the bottom. Gets them every time:lol:

I do the same thing, except what I do is dump a little tuna/water from the can in there :)

Jack

[R2L]

Water is actually absorbed everywhere in the digestive tract. And (according to something I remember reading) the trouble with giving too much water while the dog is eating is this: the water goes in the stomach first, diluting the acid (and thus the initial breakdown of food) while it's all being contained in the stomach.

Jack

Edit/PS: I guess what I am saying is, I think it is a better idea to give all that water in the AM, 12 hours before the work/show, rather than after the workout. If the dog needs the hydration to perform optimally, giving it after his workout (and possibly diluting his digestion) doesn't make as much sense as giving that same water in the AM, allowing it to be processed (and him to be hydrated) by the PM work.


Very good points Ogdogg and Jack, i think this is an even better method. But has the dog fully emptied out all that water 14 houres after? I guess you want to see his right weight just before feeding it after work. Or would you give exactly the same ammount of water on the day on the show? 1,2 kg of water is quiet allot, i figure if the dog holds to much of that you might be contracting over your dogs right weight.

[FrostyPaws]

Water is actually absorbed everywhere in the digestive tract. And (according to something I remember reading) the trouble with giving too much water while the dog is eating is this: the water goes in the stomach first, diluting the acid (and thus the initial breakdown of food) while it's all being contained in the stomach.


This concern is a myth, according to Mayo Clinic gastroenterologist Michael Picco. Picco says drinking water with a meal can help improve the body's digestion. He also says water helps the digestive system function correctly by working to break down food in the stomach. Picco suggests that people can get the same digestive benefits by drinking water shortly after meals. The breakdown process is hormonal and happens naturally, whether people drink water with their meals or not. No research suggests that digestive acids or enzymes are diluted by water intake, but even if they were, the system would still be able to do its job productively.

I haven't been able to find anything that pertains to dogs as of yet. You were right about the water bit. Of course when a dog drinks that much water, the stomach is going to have a say in it. Durh!! I was thinking about when water is pulled from the body to help with digestion, it is pulled mainly to the intestines.

[FrostyPaws]

Frosty, why exactly did you think the dog wasnt hydrated enough with less then 1 oz a lb, when its skincount was alright and the dog seemed hydrated.? Just trying to understand.

Do you add 1oz a lb trough out your whole keep? I guess i can give less when still building up the work. And how about the day before the show?


At less than 1oz per lb of water, the dog's skin was not alright after a long workout session. It wasn't alright the next day, so that tells me the dog wasn't getting enough water.

By the time I actually start my keep R2L, my dogs have been getting the extra water in their food, building up to the actual amount. So, when keep starts, the extra bit of water added to meet the 1oz per lb limit is within reach. When I start the cutdown time on the keep during the last week, the water starts to be cut back also. Since there is limited work going on, all that water would just be extra weight your dog is carrying around, and you would be over weight come show time.

[FrostyPaws]

Edit/PS: I guess what I am saying is, I think it is a better idea to give all that water in the AM, 12 hours before the work/show, rather than after the workout. If the dog needs the hydration to perform optimally, giving it after his workout (and possibly diluting his digestion) doesn't make as much sense as giving that same water in the AM, allowing it to be processed (and him to be hydrated) by the PM work.

I don't think it's a bad idea to give water in the morning, as I usually give 8 oz in the morning. Even then, most of the dogs won't drink all of it as there have been countless times I've found left over water in the bowl that night before work. After the workout, that is the time the dog needs the water the most. Most of the weight a dog loses is water weight, and most dogs will lose at least 1lb of weight with a decent workout. Some dogs can lose more due to their intensity. The water is needed afterwards to get the body back up and running properly through digestion, waste removal, renal function, all that kind of thing that revolves around body systems.

[Officially Retired]

This concern is a myth, according to Mayo Clinic gastroenterologist Michael Picco. Picco says drinking water with a meal can help improve the body's digestion. He also says water helps the digestive system function correctly by working to break down food in the stomach. Picco suggests that people can get the same digestive benefits by drinking water shortly after meals. The breakdown process is hormonal and happens naturally, whether people drink water with their meals or not. No research suggests that digestive acids or enzymes are diluted by water intake, but even if they were, the system would still be able to do its job productively.

I haven't been able to find anything that pertains to dogs as of yet. You were right about the water bit. Of course when a dog drinks that much water, the stomach is going to have a say in it. Durh!! I was thinking about when water is pulled from the body to help with digestion, it is pulled mainly to the intestines.


Thanks for the response.

If the stomach produces 'x' amount of acid, and if you add 'y" amount water to that pure acid, then by default there is dilution going on by a factor of 'y'.

Thus the question of how much this dilution may (or may not) affect digestion would have to be contingent on how much water is being added. While I have not read the report by Dr. Pico, I am instantly wondering if there was any distinction made between "some" water being added to a man's diet (like a normal 8 oz drinking glass), and the entire day's ration of water being added to a man's only meal. To clarify, a 170-lb man needs 170 oz (10.5 lb) of water in a whole day ... and yet he only drinks maybe 8-16 oz of water with a meal ... having the rest of his water intermittently throughout the day. I believe this is what Dr. Pico was likely measuring, meaning "a" glass of water with a meal.

In what you're talking about, Frosty, you're essentially giving a dog ITS ENTIRE DAY'S RATION OF WATER in one setting, while it is also eating its only meal, so I am not sure at all whether Dr. Pico's report for a human having "a glass of water" with a meal means that a person can also drink his entire day's supply (170 oz) of water with his only meal of the day.

So, while I realize there are differences in the digestive tracts of dogs and humans, I sill would like to be able to ask an expert to help clarify this (rather large) distinction as it pertains to "the amount" of water at one setting we're talking about.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

How much o.g a like a couple spoons full? And sorry for sounding like a retard but I'm assuming already cooked rice?
Just enough so it'll entice them. And yes it has to be cooked. If you give em uncooked rice it'll come out their ass the same as it goes in but yellowish in color

[FrostyPaws]

So would I, but I don't know any experts. I'm sure he's not meaning it in the same context as we are in this discussion, but like I said, that was the only thing I could find by an actual doctor that said such a thing. If a person didn't want to give the entire water content with the meal, I'm sure they could split half that night and half the next morning. There are many ways to get to the same spot. I've read that there is a dilution; there isn't a dilution; if there is a dilution it doesn't matter; the dilution does matter. If it does matter, how much does it matter? I'm not sure there has ever been anything written around that kind of thing. I have a small animal nutrition book, and one of the chapters revolves around the canine athlete. Even that book can't agree on how much water is needed except to say maybe give water 3x a day, splitting it up with the last water coming at LEAST 4 hours before exercise.

I've not seen, or read, anything negative in regards to the giving of all the water in the meal. Maybe someone should try it the other way, but I don't think it's going to have any effect personally. What I do know is that I wouldn't cut back on the 1oz per lb of water for any reason. Factoring in heat release, internal temperatures, along with everything else, I'd wager on being wrong if I didn't think a dog didn't need that amount of water after some serious work. In the summer, the water may even increase if the dog is kept outside, and it will definitely increase during the winter months.

[Abe]

Amazing info thanks to all contributing.

[tasoschatz]

Thanks for the response.
To clarify, a 170-lb man needs 170 oz (10.5 lb) of water in a whole day ... and yet he only drinks maybe 8-16 oz of water with a meal ... having the rest of his water intermittently throughout the day. I believe this is what Dr. Pico was likely measuring, meaning "a" glass of water with a meal.

Jack

In case I miss something, 1 kg of water = 1 lt = 4 glasses of almost 9 oz.
170oz X 28.35gr = 4.819,5gr or almost 5 lt or 20 glasses of water per day, while everybody talks of a minimum of 8 glasses etc. Unless someone is a serious athlete or lives in a hot environment or naturally drinks a lot of water, isn't this a bit too much? the 10.5 lb I mean. Even including beverages, coffee etc.

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, the thread is revolving around the amount of water given to a dog in keep who is an athlete. So you have to keep it within that context.

[Officially Retired]

In case I miss something, 1 kg of water = 1 lt = 4 glasses of almost 9 oz.
170oz X 28.35gr = 4.819,5gr or almost 5 lt or 20 glasses of water per day, while everybody talks of a minimum of 8 glasses etc. Unless someone is a serious athlete or lives in a hot environment or naturally drinks a lot of water, isn't this a bit too much? the 10.5 lb I mean. Even including beverages, coffee etc.

Taso, 1 oz (30 ml) of water per 1 lb of bodyweight is the general consensus for the ideal amount of water most mammals require per day. It has nothing to do with athletics, it has to do with a general consensus as to optimal health. Most people fall short of this ideal in their diet, and (when you have a bunch of dogs on the yard) it is any man's guess as to what his dogs are/are not actually drinking.

The 1 oz-per-pound rule is likewise an effective ideal for giving IV fluids, as for example a 40-lb dog would require 40 oz (1200ml) of ringers over a day's time. However, even with administering ringers, it is NOT generally advisable to dump the whole bag (bolus dose) into the animal at once, unless it is severely dehydrated and/or has hypovolemic shock, etc. Ideally, a drip-rate is established, whereby the animal gets his full 1200 ml by IV drip over the course of a 24-hour period.

In the same fashion, ideally a dog/person should be drinking his required amount of water throughout the course of the day, not in one setting, and especially not while eating his only meal. (This would be my opinion). I do agree that an athlete is going to require more than the average amount of water per day, especially after his workout.

That said, I believe those who practice the strategy of giving their dogs an entire 30ml/lb of water at one setting, do so only because they can't really monitor their dog's drinking all day, and/or because it is just more convenient to dump-in the entire required amount of water with the feed at one setting. However, I also recognize the fact that, right after a hard workout, a dog is going to have lost a lot of water because of the work, and I can see the need to replace this water. However, that said, I still believe that giving the animal its entire day's supply of water after the work is overkill, and is not something I would personally do. Not saying this practice can't or hasn't "worked" (or been adequate), but at this point I highly doubt that (if the practice were measured and studied) it would be considered the optimal way to go.

Another thing to remember about hard work is also the loss of electrolytes, so IMO giving a dog a pint or two of Pedialyte after the work would supply a more equable amount of fluid replacement (rather than an overkill amount), and that Pedialyte would likewise address the electrolyte issue. If this was then followed by feeding the dog his meal, about an hour later, this might prove to be more effective. But this is just conjecture.

Jack

[R2L]

Just to be on the safe side i figure its best to split up the water. 40 % after the workout, and 60 % 12 before the workout. Together with the water in the raw food he would still get more then 50 % after the workout. Let's not forget a 40 lbs dog would eat around 700-1000gram of raw a day which already contains around 400-500 ML water.

[Officially Retired]

That is exactly right.

Raw meat is already 70% water, so 1 lb (16 oz) of meat is actually 11.2 oz (336 ml) of water. This is exactly why raw-fed dogs don't bother to drink alot of water compared to kibble-fed dogs.

It might be worthwhile to actually measure a dog's weight, to the ounce, before the work ... and then measure his weight, to the ounce, after the work ... and get a firm handle on exactly how many ounces are being lost due to the work (and thus need to be replaced after the work) :idea:

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Dogs lose more water than electrolytes, and if you feed an hour after workout, you lose an optimal window for the reuptake of glycogen. Adding some pedialyte probably isn't a bad idea, but I would have to look more into what electrolytes dogs lose in order to formulate a plan of action for that.

I have never measured a dog's weight to the ounce before or after as I don't have a digital scale. I have measured dogs weight before/after though in 1/4lb increments. The hardest working dog I've ever had lost 3lbs during each workout at the peak point of his keep. He was a 40lb dog. He was getting 40oz of water, and he was getting more than 2lbs of feed everyday at that point.

Dogs in a keep, or at any time, won't drink enough water, on their own, to keep themselves properly hydrated. They drink to satiate thirst not to stay properly hydrated, and there is a big difference between the two. I personally don't know if all the water in their meal is optimal or not. I do know it works better than just allowing the dog to drink on it's own when it gets ready. There are too many variables to go along with that.

R2L, if you're going to split the water, the dog is going to need more than the allotted 40% after the work as that is when he's going to need the water the most. He's not going to need it the most 12 hours later. Maybe I'll try that next time to see how it all works out, though I don't think it will make any significant or noticeable difference.

[Officially Retired]

Dogs lose more water than electrolytes, and if you feed an hour after workout, you lose an optimal window for the reuptake of glycogen. Adding some pedialyte probably isn't a bad idea, but I would have to look more into what electrolytes dogs lose in order to formulate a plan of action for that.

Of course they lose more water than electrolytes; electrolytes weigh next to nothing.

Good point about the glycogen, although the flipside is that same hour window is when they burn fat if they don't get the glycogen ...




I have never measured a dog's weight to the ounce before or after as I don't have a digital scale. I have measured dogs weight before/after though in 1/4lb increments. The hardest working dog I've ever had lost 3lbs during each workout at the peak point of his keep. He was a 40lb dog. He was getting 40oz of water, and he was getting more than 2lbs of feed everyday at that point.

Wow, 3 lb of weight is a bunch; that is 48 oz of weight. I wonder if it would be a good idea give the water + electrolytes right after the work, wait an hour for processing, and then give the meal? You could even add the minor carb replacement that dogs need during that window (if you're not worried about fat loss). Just thinking out loud here, but this strategy might address all issues.




Dogs in a keep, or at any time, won't drink enough water, on their own, to keep themselves properly hydrated. They drink to satiate thirst not to stay properly hydrated, and there is a big difference between the two. I personally don't know if all the water in their meal is optimal or not. I do know it works better than just allowing the dog to drink on it's own when it gets ready. There are too many variables to go along with that.

I think dogs WILL drink enough to keep themselves hydrated ... this is why (after the work) dogs will drink their asses off, and will continue to do so until they get re-hydrated. The problem, really, is OVER-drinking if they're hot and tired and the conditioner's dilemma of monitoring weight/intake, etc.

In point of fact, I actually believe that the critical weighing of the dog, before and after the work, pretty much signifies exactly how much they have lost during the work. But because they're burning calories, electrolytes, fluids, etc. it's hard to say exactly how much is water only, but I think adding Pedialyte rather than straight water is a better idea (in the same fashion that running a bag of saline is superior to just replenishing water).




R2L, if you're going to split the water, the dog is going to need more than the allotted 40% after the work as that is when he's going to need the water the most. He's not going to need it the most 12 hours later. Maybe I'll try that next time to see how it all works out, though I don't think it will make any significant or noticeable difference.

Interesting discussion and observations.

If I were active, I would personally be trying to replace exactly the amount of weight lost after the work, or thereabouts, and then I would allow enough time for the replenished fluids (Pedialyte or equivalent) to dissipate before feeding. I don't think I would lump both that much water/fluid and his full meal all together at the same time myself.

Maybe you, or someone else, could provide some feedback on this eventually :)

Jack

[tasoschatz]

About the 1 hour after workout optimal window glycogen replenish etc, ok about humans I know, glucose etc, but, about dogs that most say that the preffered energy source is fat, which in humans means ketones in absence of carbs, what do you feed that would get in there in less than an hour? and with what timing?

[scratchin dog]

By giving a small amount of maltodextrin or similar, within a half hour of the workout you are only replacing muscle glycogen, not liver glycogen and that helps the dog to continue to burn fat as well as prevent muscle scavenging.

[FrostyPaws]

Scratching, that's where whatever other carbs you want to feed in a keep come into play in regards to liver. Carbs such as rice, (insert carb here).

In regards to the fat Jack, they're going to be burning the fat anyway as that is the primary energy source. I don't know if they burn MORE fat then or not, but they're going to be burning it anyway. Also, what kibble feeders need to realize that if they're going to switch to raw for a keep, they need to do it at least 6 weeks before hand. They can start adjusting the dog's body to extra fat by giving kibble with more fat, adding oils, whatever, but if they're going to feed raw in a keep, it is imperative they switch weeks before they even put a weight out so the body can adjust to the food source, the fat content, the whole shebang.

What I've found in letting dogs drink freely is that they will drink a lot immediately after work. That will satiate their thirst AND help rehydrate the dog. The problem I have with all of that is two fold. One is as you mentioned. I can't sit and watch the dog and his water all day nor am I able to give him X amount of water at set intervals. Another problem I've found is that dog's drinking water in a 4 hour window range of work always work shitty. Every dog I've ever owned that did that, to the T, worked like shit that day. The dilemma is what if the dog NEEDS the water at that time to help rehydrate? That is why I like all the water in the feed, whether at once or split. It eliminates ME stressing, and it eliminates the dog making silly, dog-like decisions.

Taso, a dog's primary energy source is fat, but carbs still play a part in the energy expenditure. By giving something such as maltodextrin in a 30minute window, the reuptake of glycogen is I believe 60-65%, maybe more. Then, whatever other carbs you feed will bump you up to 100% by the next time to work. So you're effectively replenishing your glycogen stores (which fuels the muscle for certain activity levels) everyday. It doesn't take much, and you an effectively get by with doing all of that with a less than 10% carb diet. So, it plays a very minimal part of the feed.

What I'm going to do next time is split the water. 50% at night with some pedialyte mixed in, and I'll give 50% the next morning or whatever schedule I'm on at the time. I may be a lot of things, but I sure do love doing different things to see if something works better than another. :)

[tasoschatz]

Scratch, I do get what you say, the theory is that first you replenish muscle glycogen, then liver and then you start converting in fat. So basically you do not burn fat but you avoid an early storage stop, before fully recover glycogen levels and subsequently start to store fat.
My knowledge about human systems and how they work is, I feel, quite adequate. What I try to find through questions is what everyone has to contribute through actual experience, canine sience, or human science applied to dogs as guess work. In many pit forums I see all the time explanations about everything but I prefer to be able to put it under a category such as experience, dog applied facts or science from other mamals.
For example, FrostyPaws says that glycogen reuptake is something like 60-65%, I do not argue with that but I like to be able to see where it comes from. It helps me to better evaluate a piece of advice.
I remember talking to gd with gringo, he told me that he followed mayfields' advice about giving honey to a dog prior to working out for higher training output, I tried it and it works. Today he works with bee pollen and other supplements. In case anybody feels this info is of some use.
I also find often usefull info in sources about racing dogs, the bets and the money at stake there is much higher, so there is more research involved.

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, I believe I've posted a few articles on this site from Arleigh Reynolds, and he's the man that came up with that by doing his own tests on sled dogs in Alaska. If it's not up on this site, I will find the article and post it for you.

It should be noted also that Gringo has moved on from a lot of what Mayfield told him, and he has been very successful with the dogs he has down in South America at this point.

[tasoschatz]

I haven't nortice these articles here but I do remember some time in the past reading from sources about sled dogs, for my criterion this is valuable info, extreme conditions on something that happens since ever. Thanks for the source info.
I will try and find gringo's supplementation and posted here, maybe it was in a forum I asked him, but could also be between pm's among us.

[R2L]

Interesting turn about the glycogen levels, if i understand you guys right you want to bring those up to level to prevent the body from burning protein (muscles) after training?
Im putting a small portion of rice through the rice so i quess that's ok, but i wonder how low the fat percentage has to be for the body to start burning up muscles. I guess you always want to keep a little fat in your dog to burn, same in the show. The dog cannot perform without fuel, so how is he going to be so low on fat percentage that it starts to burn protein after a training?


Another question about the water intake popped up to me. What if i was going to experiment giving the dog 0,6oz for each lb of water and i keep checking his skin count every day. At one point i find my dog is not hydrated enough, i quickly change from 0,6 to 1,0. What real harm has been done to that dog being not hydrated enough for less then a day? Not trying to take you guys advices for granted but i can walk a 42 lbs dog which is being fed 400 gr of raw a day 3x 20 minutes a day, and it still wont drink any water. Is it really going to use up 1,2 liter extra if id added 45 minutes of millwork? Depends on the temperatures you're training in too.

[tasoschatz]

I do not know for sure about dogs, but in humans fat burning occurs at certain heart beat levels. If the exetcise is of high output in short time, so high heart beat, preffered energy source are glycogens aka carbs followed by muscle, no fat burning at all. Later on fat could be used as energy source to replenish "fuel storage" but since this thread is about performance during working and not about dieting, it is a different subject itself.
In extreme low body fat situations, the body instead of metabolising fat and carbs throughout the day for energy, will burn muscle into glucose into energy etc to function.

[Officially Retired]

Scratching, that's where whatever other carbs you want to feed in a keep come into play in regards to liver. Carbs such as rice, (insert carb here).


Not to mention the fact there are trace carbs everywhere, even in food items you don't think they're in ...




In regards to the fat Jack, they're going to be burning the fat anyway as that is the primary energy source. I don't know if they burn MORE fat then or not, but they're going to be burning it anyway. Also, what kibble feeders need to realize that if they're going to switch to raw for a keep, they need to do it at least 6 weeks before hand. They can start adjusting the dog's body to extra fat by giving kibble with more fat, adding oils, whatever, but if they're going to feed raw in a keep, it is imperative they switch weeks before they even put a weight out so the body can adjust to the food source, the fat content, the whole shebang.

Again, I remember reading somewhere that most of any fat burning that goes on is precisely when the glycogen stores are finally depleted. While the glycogen stores are available, there is no (or virtually no) fat burning taking place, precisely because the glycogen stores are available. This is why, at the end of the work, when the glycogen stores are actually depleted through the exercize, that the most fat-burning is now taking place: the body is converting the available fat stores in the body into more glycogen for energy. In immediately giving carbs for the reuptake of glycogen, the body ceases to need to convert fat into glycogen stores, but instead uses the available carbs for this purpose.

If my recollection of what I read is true, then it would make sense not to give carbs to dogs that are still over the weight, during this 1-hour window, but to allow the dog to burn its own fat and thus convert its own excess into the needed glycogen stores for the next day. By contrast, a dog that is already down to pit weight (or very close) should have its glycogen stores replaced by carbs during this window; otherwise the body will attempt to convert lean muscle mass into the needed glycogen stores (although, with dogs, I have also read that their liver actually produces glycogen for the body when the animal is completely empty).

I also think the primary difference between how dogs use nutrition and how we do lies in the fact we humans are able to convert carbs into energy very easily, whereas (after long periods of work) dogs tend to convert fat sources into energy more so than carbs, even if they have available glycogen stores in the body.




What I've found in letting dogs drink freely is that they will drink a lot immediately after work. That will satiate their thirst AND help rehydrate the dog. The problem I have with all of that is two fold. One is as you mentioned. I can't sit and watch the dog and his water all day nor am I able to give him X amount of water at set intervals. Another problem I've found is that dog's drinking water in a 4 hour window range of work always work shitty. Every dog I've ever owned that did that, to the T, worked like shit that day. The dilemma is what if the dog NEEDS the water at that time to help rehydrate? That is why I like all the water in the feed, whether at once or split. It eliminates ME stressing, and it eliminates the dog making silly, dog-like decisions.

Exactly. Giving all the water "after the work" essentially allows you more control over what you're doing, but again I am not sure if it is "best practice" to give it along with the feed as well simultaneously. I do know that dogs' stomachs are capable of processing a lot of food at one setting, and that their digestive juices are exceptionally-strong and able to do so ... but (again) I am not sure that this necessarily holds true when the stomach is diluted with an entire day's supply of water that's been added to it as well.




Taso, a dog's primary energy source is fat, but carbs still play a part in the energy expenditure. By giving something such as maltodextrin in a 30minute window, the reuptake of glycogen is I believe 60-65%, maybe more. Then, whatever other carbs you feed will bump you up to 100% by the next time to work. So you're effectively replenishing your glycogen stores (which fuels the muscle for certain activity levels) everyday. It doesn't take much, and you an effectively get by with doing all of that with a less than 10% carb diet. So, it plays a very minimal part of the feed.

I remember reading another interesting phenomenon unique to dogs as well, namely that (when completely empty ... I mean completely) that a dog's liver produces its own glycogen to keep the dog going. Again, I really need to spend a day looking around for my sources, but I do remember reading something to this effect: that part of the reason wolves are able to just "go all day" and run endlessly with no food or nutrition in them at all, as they hunt, is because they can produce their own glycogen via the liver. (Please forgive me, though, if my recollection is wrong, but I don't think it is.)




What I'm going to do next time is split the water. 50% at night with some pedialyte mixed in, and I'll give 50% the next morning or whatever schedule I'm on at the time. I may be a lot of things, but I sure do love doing different things to see if something works better than another. :)

That is cool, and let us know how you do. But consider trying it with straight Pedialyte first, as any results obtained will be more noticeable (one way or the other) I would think :)

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

R2L, you're talking about walking a dog? That's not work. That's just walk.

Put your dog on a mill or whatever else you have, and make him run as hard as he can for 60 minutes. Your dog will drink water. I don't condition dogs for a show by walking them so I don't know how that works.

High intensity mill work or jenny, and your dog is going to drink water I don't care how much raw feed it gets.

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, my numbers of 60-65% were a little high. Here is an excerpt of the piece written by Arleigh Reynolds:

"Recent research has shown that the most effective way to replenish carbohydrates in a canine athlete is through provision of modified starches called maltodextrins. Maltodextrins are 8-20 glucose units long, therefore, they fall between simple sugar and complex starches in structure. Maltodextrins are rapidly absorbed and taken up by the muscle without the insulin spikes or other associated GI problems attributed to other carbohydrate sources.


Several studies have examined the benefits of post-exercise maltodextrin supplementation in dogs that perform prolonged exercise. Dogs that were given 1.5-2.0 g carbohydrate/ kg body weight post-exercise in the form of maltodextrins were able to recover, on average, about 50% of pre-exercise glycogen stores within 4 hours of exercise and about 85 % of pre-exercise glycogen within 24 hours, while dogs fed but not supplemented recovered less than 40% of their pre-exercise glycogen after 24-hours."

So by feeding ONLY maltodextrin, you get about 85% pre-exercise glycogen in a 24 hour period. Once the other carbs from the food is processed, you will get 100% glycogen replenishment every day.

[tasoschatz]

Frosty thanks for the excerpt.
I do accept it as it is written, but I have to mention that in humans the 85% + 15% glycogen replenishment has not to do with the carb source but time, to simply put it, as a human, no matter what you eat, you need more than 24 hours to compeletely refuel.
Again in humans, after a strength work out, because hormonal levels are at a high, you are in advantage in burning fat, but you do lose the opportunity for fast carb replenishment. You get something and loose also in another aspect. It has been shown in studies that the exercise for really high hormonal output, testo etc not cortisol, is the 100 meters run, maximum effort in a short time. So, in theory, if we where able to do this like ten+ times per day, every few hours, we would be like in the juice.

[R2L]

Several studies have examined the benefits of post-exercise maltodextrin supplementation in dogs that perform prolonged exercise. Dogs that were given 1.5-2.0 g carbohydrate/ kg body weight post-exercise in the form of maltodextrins were able to recover, on average, about 50% of pre-exercise glycogen stores within 4 hours of exercise and about 85 % of pre-exercise glycogen within 24 hours, while dogs fed but not supplemented recovered less than 40% of their pre-exercise glycogen after 24-hours."

So by feeding ONLY maltodextrin, you get about 85% pre-exercise glycogen in a 24 hour period. Once the other carbs from the food is processed, you will get 100% glycogen replenishment every day.

Nice post, maltodextrins can be bought as pure or powder or something?

[scratchin dog]

Nice post, maltodextrins can be bought as pure or powder or something?


Maltodextrin is an artificial sweetener that can be found in Splenda and some other sweeteners. It can also be found in ready made products such as K-9 Superfuel. You can save some money and buy it in bulk to make your own after workout drink.

http://www.bulkfoods.com/whole-foods.asp?wholesale=4129

[FrostyPaws]

Taso, we're not talking about humans though. We're talking about dogs. Dog nutrition and human nutrition aren't the same, so you can't think about it the same. A dog's body works at a much more efficient level than a person's. Not to mention that Reynolds runs his own sled dogs, runs these tests on actual working dogs from his own kennel along with other mushers from Alaska.

So, as long as you continue to think about it in human terms, you will continue to try and make the same connections. Those connections aren't the same as dogs and people.

Maltodextrin is actually a complex carbohydrate that is used as an artificial sweetener.

[tasoschatz]

Frosty, I agree that I think in human terms, that is because that is all I know about.
According to my knowledge regarding humans, all the sugars in the body end up in two types of carbs, glucose and fructose. For example sucrose, table sugar, is a combination of both bonded together etc. Same goes for flours etc etc. What I tried to say is, why a dog replenishment is up to 85% within 24 hours with maltodextrin only and potentialy 100% with other carbs added? I know about humans that glucose goes to muscle first, then liver and then in to fat, I know that fructose goes to liver and then fat and I know that if you use fructose only and the liver is "filled up" then no matter if your muscles are empty and no matter what you will feed, fat storage is next. So, having this info in mind I wonder what happens to dogs that makes them in need of two or more carb sources to completely refuel.

[FrostyPaws]

Taking a cue from this thread, I did an experiment on a dog I've been working.

He weighed 40.1 lbs before his work today. He was put on the jenny for 30 minutes today. He had two spells of where he walked for 2 minutes, each time, while on the jenny. At the end of that half hour, he had ran 4.89 miles at an average speed of 9.6mph.

His weight after he cooled down? 38.14 lbs. That is just a half hour work out for this particular dog, and he lost that much water weight. Hopefully that will give people an idea of just how much water a dog can potentially lose if he's a serious working dog. Obviously, lots of dogs don't work that hard so they won't lose that much water, but it is something that everyone should pay extremely close attention to if they want to have the dog running at it's optimum level come show time.

REPLENISH your fluids!

[Officially Retired]

This is great information, thanks for taking the time to measure & post :)

[R2L]

nice post/eperiment. but is it all water that he lost? aint the dog directly burning his fat too.

[Officially Retired]

Not only fat, but calories in general.

Still, when dogs slobber (as they tend to when they're hot), I am sure the vast majority of the weight they lose is water ... after all a dog is 70% water :)

[tasoschatz]

Nice info Frosty, that is what I like in nice and cosy forums like this one, exchange of info without egos and bs.
If I may go a bit theoretical, only to express a thought of mine, we know that dogs do not swet, so no water lost for cooling purposes. We know that in humans a gram of glycogen holds 2.5 - 3 gr of water, so for every 4 grams of weight lost 1 gr of glycogen has been used, could this be a way to calculate how much glycogen the dog used and use it for replenishment purposes? Of course I might be completely stupid and make an ass of myself, but it just came to me and decided to express it.

[R2L]

http://nutri-science.net/site/turbolyte

[Officially Retired]

Nice info Frosty, that is what I like in nice and cosy forums like this one, exchange of info without egos and bs.
If I may go a bit theoretical, only to express a thought of mine, we know that dogs do not swet, so no water lost for cooling purposes. We know that in humans a gram of glycogen holds 2.5 - 3 gr of water, so for every 4 grams of weight lost 1 gr of glycogen has been used, could this be a way to calculate how much glycogen the dog used and use it for replenishment purposes? Of course I might be completely stupid and make an ass of myself, but it just came to me and decided to express it.


Although dogs don't sweat for cooling purposes, they do lose a truckload of water out of their mouth (slobber) for cooling purposes ... :idea:

[EWO]

An awesome thread. Very informative. I leave fresh water out for the dogs during the work. I add water to the raw mixture as well. I have found that the dog will come off the water on his own. After three weeks or so of work, being fed on a timed basis and having the food mixed with water the dog does not touch the bowl. When he comes off I pick up the bowl and then dial him in on weight with food and water the rest of the way.
The amount of water loss varies from dog to dog. I have a dog now that will drop 2-3 pounds after a hard day. I weigh him before work and after work and adjust the meal/water accordingly. I weigh him again 10-12 hours later and adjust the evening meal accordingly. I am not sure I am on the 1oz. per lb. ration but I am thinking it is very close. He gets about 16oz. per meal which works out to 32oz. per day for a 44lb dog. After factoring in the amount of water in the raw feed I would guess there is another 10oz or so within the feed (meats being app. 70% water).
I will try to dial the water in closer to 1oz per pound to see if I can see a difference. My guess is if I do not change anything else the dog will 'come off' the water a little earlier if I ensure the 1oz per lb ratio.
Great post. EWO

[R2L]

Its been a few weeks and i been trying out some stuff too. But i have to come to the conclusion that a dog who's given a 20-30% of his water in the morning weighs more at weighing time then when adding that same water to the rest of it, together with the meal, after the training. There was only 8-9 hours between giving water in the morning and training time and the dog had only 1 moment(30 minutes though) to empty instead of 3. So i stopped doing that and started giving it all together. I think u also have to take in mind the temperatures. A dog who is trained in 15-20 degrees celcius will obviously lose more water then one trained in 5 degrees celcius. So its not like 1oz is a standard for everybody. Here its around 5 degrees celcius at this moment, im adding 20 oz of water to the raw, which has like 10 oz, so 30 oz all together for a 41 lb dog after 30 minutes of millwork. Will increase the intake a little together with the food as the work gets harder. I will also try to give the same training for 3 days with the same amount of food, adding like 0,7 oz per lb one day and 1 oz per lb the other day and see if there is any significant differences at weighing time. It would be a shame if you think your dog is on weight while its to wet and u end up coming like 100-200 gr under.