gameness

[pig mad]

I may be wrong i been hunting pigs with dogs for bout 10 year just the last year or 2 i been leaning towards bulldogs. Anyway last night talking to another bulldog guy he keeps stating that dog is only game talking about my stud choices my sorrell bites like croc and game as they come so i wrap him in cotton wool to breed. Just recently i was given use of a hot little buck/beadroux/sorrell bitch to breed to him but at same time was asked to put the guys mates dog over my other bitch who is nice bitch but his male is cold pig dog when i told this guy last night i plan on culling all that litter but 2 pups going to pighunting homes the main reason being to see how she gos as a mother before another mate will give me semen of his champ that died last time out. This guy i was talking to last night states i wouldnt bother he only game. This comment lost me as i thought that was main ingredient? Am i missing something here???

[OGDOGG]

"He only game" could mean that the dog is game but has no talent.

[pig mad]

It does but is that not enough of a reason to breed it? Would you rather breed a talented cur? Thats what im getting out of the conversation

[skipper]

It is all about taste. I love a game plug, even if it's hard to win with a dog that's just game. Gameness is what separates our dogs from any other breed, and imo should therefore be the most appreciated trait. In my experience you can always add ability and what you think is missing in that game plug by selective breedings. Trust me on this one, it's hard winning with a dog thats just plain game, it's even harder winning with a rough cur.

[pig mad]

Thanks skipper thats how i was thinking id rather pick up a game dog than shoot a cur

[Officially Retired]

While I do understand your partner's point, in that intelligence/talent are what separates the very best, I still agree with Skipper in that consistent, extreme gameness is always worth more than any other trait.

I can't begin to tell you how many "badass dogs" my dogs have stopped passed the 1:30-2:00-hour mark. People that always talk about "quick wins" are always left wanting when they step up in class and face a real bulldog ... that doesn't just "go away" after they get a little winded or because they have "been behind" for an hour. The trouble with game plugs, however, is that too many idiots don't appreciate them and even abuse them. I can think of two dogs in particular that had to deal with stupid owners.

One of them was Brawlee's Tracer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9823), a double-grandson of Ch Tonka. This dog was used as a roll dog several dozen times, and would be taken off the chain and set down again-and-again before his scabs fell off from the last roll. He kept changing hands because no one wanted a dog with "no ability" ... until he got in one genius' hands who decided he would roll Tracer to death. This fine fellow selected his "baddest match dog" and put him on Tracer with the specific goal of killing him. Well, this dog beat the bejesus out of Tracer ... until about the :40 mark when he started to get a little windy ... and then Tracer came up to the top and stopped this talented POS in about :50. But what do you think happened after that? Instead of being an intelligent dogman, and respecting Tracer's extreme gameness, our friend and hero (Tracers retarded owner) became irate at Tracer for stopping is favorite ... and so he put another dog on Tracer to finish him because "he had no time" for game plugs. Fortunately for Tracer, there were a lot of fanciers at pitside, who themselves started to get irate at how Tracer was being treated and the guy was essentially forced to pick up. I don't know what ever happened to Tracer, but I am sure he died an unappreciated, premature death because there is almost nothing off of him.

Another dog that comes to mind is my own Vise-Grip's Igor (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9822) dog. A littermate to Sassy and Razor POR, Igor was a thick, rugged powerhouse but had "no ability" either. After I sold him to some upstate NY fanciers, Igor also changed hands several times as no one seemed to have the yard space for a truly game dog. They wanted to hang onto their talented curs instead. Time-after-time, some "new owner" would tell me of the badass dogs Igor stopped ... after taking a beating ... and time-after-time I had to hear some new idiot lament that "if only Igor had ability" ... to which I would then say If only those other dogs were game. People don't realize that the ability to keep going *is* an ability. The ability to TAKE punishment (rather than collapse to it) *is* an ability. Not every ability has to do with speed, talent, mouth, etc. ... other abilities have to do with raw power, grit, durability, and determination. Well, Igor had a TRUCKLOAD of these kinds of abilities ... so much so that everything his weight ultimately quit to him ... to where he was finally was put uphill 16 lbs and got ransacked so badly by the disparity in weight that he died afterward ... but he still had that giant cur turning before he died. It was a sad waste of a truly game dog, but so it is when game plugs fall into the hands of those who cannot appreciate them.

Ahh, but I digress. I guess the moral of the story is I agree that physical "talent" is a FAR easier trait to breed for than is truly deep and consistent gameness. If I were breeding hog dogs, however, brainless gameness would make a dog a memory pretty quickly, as dogs do not have to be dead game to be a hog dog. In fact, a lot of times people mix-breed their hog dogs to take some of the gameness out of the animals in favor of some sense, so that the dogs don't just run in there and commit suicide. So, in the particular case of hog dogs, your friend may have a point.

However, in the case of pit dogs, where the sizes are equal, I absolutely think that a person will do better starting with a consistent DG foundation, and build on the abilities, than he will to start with a rough cur foundation and try to build on gameness.

Jack

[skipper]

Handling pressure and stress is indeed a quality that is hard to come by. Dogs that are able to come from way back and turn things around on gameness and being able to not stress out about their situation is the most important trait in these dogs imo. Seen many dogs loose all their confidence when this happens and 5 minutes later they are on the bottom quitting.

[OGDOGG]

Wow that made me thought a lot about one of my young prospect I farmed out to a buddy.
He started up very young as I mentioned in my other post. This guy even scratched to a doa dog every time. His mind is not right somehow cause hell drag that body into a corner and crunch away and won't stop. He is fully on but his talent is low and was always the down dog. But he never stop scratching.
I figure he is not match worthy and hell be the last male I will breed to. Am I making a big mistake with that decision, since his litter mate brother is just as game, but looking like an Ace? I also factor in that I could always produce more like him.
My thoughts on breeding a game bum is that: if he is the last of that blood on your yard, at the moment, then yes breed him to a talented proven bitch. But if he's not the last of the Mohican then wait until you find a suitable bitch to breed to him.
I did a breeding with a game but low talent male to a talented proven bitch and got 3 pups. The male had no talent like the sire. One of the female is very athlectic and talented. The other female has the sire's smarts and the dame's killing instinct. Two out of three match worthy dog is very good for breeding a game bum. So far I bred the athletic bitch, off the bum, to a talented male and got an athlectic litter I like very much. It's all About selective breeding. I wouldn't breed his offsprings back into him, and I wouldn't try to breed any of his bum offsprings period cause they're carrying 2 generations of bum trait in them.

[Officially Retired]

Wow that made me thought a lot about one of my young prospect I farmed out to a buddy.
He started up very young as I mentioned in my other post. This guy even scratched to a doa dog every time. His mind is not right somehow cause hell drag that body into a corner and crunch away and won't stop. He is fully on but his talent is low and was always the down dog. But he never stop scratching.
I figure he is not match worthy and hell be the last male I will breed to. Am I making a big mistake with that decision, since his litter mate brother is just as game, but looking like an Ace? I also factor in that I could always produce more like him.
My thoughts on breeding a game bum is that: if he is the last of that blood on your yard, at the moment, then yes breed him to a talented proven bitch. But if he's not the last of the Mohican then wait until you find a suitable bitch to breed to him.
I did a breeding with a game but low talent male to a talented proven bitch and got 3 pups. The male had no talent like the sire. One of the female is very athlectic and talented. The other female has the sire's smarts and the dame's killing instinct. Two out of three match worthy dog is very good for breeding a game bum. So far I bred the athletic bitch, off the bum, to a talented male and got an athlectic litter I like very much. It's all About selective breeding. I wouldn't breed his offsprings back into him, and I wouldn't try to breed any of his bum offsprings period cause they're carrying 2 generations of bum trait in them.


How do you know his brother is "just as game" if he is an ace and always top dog?

Tombstone was a game bum and produced pretty well ... and Long's Werdo was an extremely game bum and he out-produced every other Jeep dog on the planet, including Jeep's Champions :idea:

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Handling pressure and stress is indeed a quality that is hard to come by. Dogs that are able to come from way back and turn things around on gameness and being able to not stress out about their situation is the most important trait in these dogs imo. Seen many dogs loose all their confidence when this happens and 5 minutes later they are on the bottom quitting.

Totally agree with this.

[evolutionkennels]

I gotta get my two cents in. I LOVE ME A GAME PLUG. DOGGERS that abuse them should be culled from having dogs. I agree with Jack 100%, You can always breed a fancy slick bitch to a game plug and get game aces. It's a lot harder to breed in gameness

[Officially Retired]

I gotta get my two cents in. I LOVE ME A GAME PLUG. DOGGERS that abuse them should be culled from having dogs. I agree with Jack 100%, You can always breed a fancy slick bitch to a game plug and get game aces. It's a lot harder to breed in gameness

Totally agree with this also ... to lack a deep appreciation for the defining trait of our dogs, and to deliberately kill dogs that have it, is (essentially) to be an enemy of the breed.

[OGDOGG]

They both scratched to a doa dog at the same age. But you're right he was always the top dog and hasn't been put under pressure like his brother. He pretty much blew through everything.
But then I factor in his traits. He is off (SuperStar/Ch Blonka) both parents were out of high percentage litters themselves. From what I've seen in him and from my knowledge of both families, since I have 2 siblings in SuperStar and Little Secret(both tested game) and 3 siblings in Ch Blonka, Ch Buddy and BullsEye(stolen)who had high abilities, into the equation, I think highly of his gameness.

[Officially Retired]

They both scratched to a doa dog at the same age. But you're right he was always the top dog and hasn't been put under pressure like his brother. He pretty much blew through everything.

Scratching into a dead dogs confuses a lot of people. The truth is the desire to do this has nothing to do with gameness, only finish. Gameness is the will to persevere no matter what ... ability never to lose one's confidence or drive while things are going rough ... so only one of your dogs is proven game ... while both are proven finishers.

Regarding scratching into dead dogs, I do not agree with this practice for two primary reasons: 1) it is not required to scratch into dead dogs in a match, so a dog doesn't really need this trait in order to win, and 2) many of those "dead dogs" that are killed in the box are (I am sure) the very game plugs we are talking about. So, to me, this is an abuse of dogs that fills no purpose. I have been able to produce more truly DG dogs than most breeders without ever killing another dog ...

The truth is anyone can tell if a dog is truly game (or a finisher), without actually killing another dog, same as anyone can tell if a man is willing to continue (or going to be choked out) in MMA without actually seeing him die ...





But then I factor in his traits. He is off (SuperStar/Ch Blonka) both parents were out of high percentage litters themselves. From what I've seen in him and from my knowledge of both families, since I have 2 siblings in SuperStar and Little Secret(both tested game) and 3 siblings in Ch Blonka, Ch Buddy and BullsEye(stolen)who had high abilities, into the equation, I think highly of his gameness.

I totally agree with you in that it always seems more desirable to breed to the more talented brother ... but it doesn't always prove to be the way to go. Still, it sure does make logical sense. Trouble is, prepotency doesn't always follow logic :lol:

I have to say that I too would probably breed to the more talented of two littermates, it is just hard to breed to a dog with less ability, but if the gameness is EXTREME (the kind you can just feel when you see it), then I would give that dog a shot.

Regarding Ch Blonka, didn't she herself pretty much prove the point about the value gameness when she was stopped by Ch Rose Red? Blonka beat the bejesus out of Red, but stood the line. Please forgive me if I am mistaken, but that is what I seem to recall. Maybe breeding Blonka (with her high ability) to SuperStar (with high gameness) will give you a complete dog, but I would rather breed SuperStar to Rose Red, the bitch who beat Blonka on gameness.

Jack

[bulldogsrus]

It does but is that not enough of a reason to breed it? Would you rather breed a talented cur? Thats what im getting out of the conversation


I dont see that it has to be a choice of breeding to a game no talent dog or a killing cur. Theres plenty of good dogs about that are both game and have plenty of talent \ finish.

Any dog I use needs to be game BUT must have more than just gameness, I wouldnt use just a game dog, Im looking for more than a plug.

[pig mad]

Yeah thanks not trying to breed hog dogs though can pick those up off the street trying to get a serious yard together cause the more i talk to others and read the more i see were they going wrong this guy who said dont breed to this other fellas dog cause it only game well that only game dog beat his in 2 hours and next 1 he did quit in 1 hour so that leaves me to think he making mistakes some where i think he feeds his dogs for the wrong reasons i see to much ego caught up in it all..
I was given my game plug to save him from going into the hands of dick heads as you previously mentioned and the plug is whats giving me the bug saw him catch a wild dog 40kg big feral fucker well for 20min my plug was getting eaten i was shitting myself hahaha thought i was gonna have to jump in and stab this fucken thing and it was only me and the plug out in the scrub a million things were going through my head all of wich were me thinking i made a big mistake my dog was gonna die if i jump in what sought of disease is this dingo going to carry and if he gets on me the dog already proved he was not going to be much help i was nearly sick and the hair on my neck was near pulling my skin off i was that amped and then all of a sudden dingo try make a break for it but plug got his foot starts shaking that leg like crazy whent for another hold and this dingo try jump on back of my car to get away i near blew in my pants hahahaha old plug finally got him beat he jumped up and shook dingo off my car dingo tried go under the car so plug straight under with him im nearly in tears of joy just writing this hahaha i was thinking fuck you dingo old bronx dog got you beat another 5min gos by and dingo laid down old plugger mouth full of rib cage so i just stabbed the dingo and took old plugger home for some tlc ever since i been having funny thoughts and doing my home work hahahahahaha...
Old plugger has cost me thousands in kennel alterations use to be all mesh and full of pig dogs now it full of bull dogs and more solid than fort knox who would have thought 1 old dog could change my life so much..

[pig mad]

has to be a choice cause thats what i got and think that out of his litter something got to have ability if your blessed to have a big yard of dogs well maybe no you dont need it but just starting out i got to breed to what i got and just game is a good start i would have thought.
Old mate told me many a ch been bred from a cur but breeding to a cur seems like a good path to failure for me...

[evolutionkennels]

The irony is that everyone wants the super skilled assassin who can finish in 10 minutes, but if he meets his equal, you'll he glad his sire or dam was game as the day is long. No disrespect to anyone, but if I can have a worldbeater of a dog out of a redboyjocko or bolio tombstone dog, or a chinaman.. eli.. snooty... honeybunch... I'll go with the rbjbt dog.. in my minds eye, they have a more solid background. In layman's terms, if You have a worldbeater who meets his match, you'll be glad if his parents were game plugs

[FarmersChoice]

I think ppl need to realize that justt cause a dog is very talented doesnt measn its a curr and just cause a dog is game doesnt mean it untalented makes me think of a thing a old wise man told me he said the best dog and most talented dog is the last dog in there now there have been many dogs that were super talented against one but then prove its also very game against another on its next hunt much like gr ch zebo now true gameness is is something one should always be valued for dont matter what in my eyes this is and always has been the true prestige behind the breed no disrespect these are just my opinions and views

[OGDOGG]

Totally agree with this.


Regarding Ch Blonka, didn't she herself pretty much prove the point about the value gameness when she was stopped by Ch Rose Red? Blonka beat the bejesus out of Red, but stood the line. Please forgive me if I am mistaken, but that is what I seem to recall. Maybe breeding Blonka (with her high ability) to SuperStar (with high gameness) will give you a complete dog, but I would rather breed SuperStar to Rose Red, the bitch who beat Blonka on gameness.

Jack
I couldn't agree more on everything you just said as far as gameness and finishing skills. And you are right about Gr Ch Rose Red stopping her after she almost killed RR. There are no excuses from me whatsoever because I did not owned Blonka at the time and I didn't condition her. Both of my old partners dogs ran hot at the :20 mark and couldn't recover to the end. A knowledgeable dogman knows that no matter how game a dog is, they will all stop after they run hot and can't recover. Well, except for my ex partner. She got counted out but trust me she did not quit. Like RR's owner reported in the journal "when it was Blonka's turn to scratched, i tucked RR in real tight and made sure she didnt move, then Blonka got counted out and we screamed and yell like we won the final four!" what he didn't mentioned was that Blonka scratched once she saw where RR was.
At one time I offered to buy Blonka for 5K when she was a 2xer, but he refused to sell her to me. Then once she lost, I picked up his trash and turned her into a Champ.

[Officially Retired]

The irony is that everyone wants the super skilled assassin who can finish in 10 minutes, but if he meets his equal, you'll he glad his sire or dam was game as the day is long. No disrespect to anyone, but if I can have a worldbeater of a dog out of a redboyjocko or bolio tombstone dog, or a chinaman.. eli.. snooty... honeybunch... I'll go with the rbjbt dog.. in my minds eye, they have a more solid background. In layman's terms, if You have a worldbeater who meets his match, you'll be glad if his parents were game plugs

This is so true.

When it gets into the trenches, it is better to have crafted the ability into your dogs on a foundation of gameness ... than it is to breed "for ability" on a foundation of question marks (and bad moves ignored) ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I dont see that it has to be a choice of breeding to a game no talent dog or a killing cur. Theres plenty of good dogs about that are both game and have plenty of talent \ finish.
Any dog I use needs to be game BUT must have more than just gameness, I wouldnt use just a game dog, Im looking for more than a plug.

I agree that any dog a person "uses" should have more than gameness, but (for breeding) extremely game plugs off of great parents have a history of producing prepotently, especially if inbred on the right dogs.

I believe it was Frank Fitzwater who said, "Boys, breed your game dogs and you'll get your fighting dogs!" ...

[Officially Retired]

I think ppl need to realize that justt cause a dog is very talented doesnt measn its a curr and just cause a dog is game doesnt mean it untalented makes me think of a thing a old wise man told me he said the best dog and most talented dog is the last dog in there now there have been many dogs that were super talented against one but then prove its also very game against another on its next hunt much like gr ch zebo now true gameness is is something one should always be valued for dont matter what in my eyes this is and always has been the true prestige behind the breed no disrespect these are just my opinions and views

True!

[Officially Retired]

I couldn't agree more on everything you just said as far as gameness and finishing skills. And you are right about Gr Ch Rose Red stopping her after she almost killed RR. There are no excuses from me whatsoever because I did not owned Blonka at the time and I didn't condition her. Both of my old partners dogs ran hot at the :20 mark and couldn't recover to the end. A knowledgeable dogman knows that no matter how game a dog is, they will all stop after they run hot and can't recover.

Great point.




Well, except for my ex partner. She got counted out but trust me she did not quit. Like RR's owner reported in the journal "when it was Blonka's turn to scratched, i tucked RR in real tight and made sure she didnt move, then Blonka got counted out and we screamed and yell like we won the final four!" what he didn't mentioned was that Blonka scratched once she saw where RR was.

Thank you for telling the whole story ...





At one time I offered to buy Blonka for 5K when she was a 2xer, but he refused to sell her to me. Then once she lost, I picked up his trash and turned her into a Champ.

Good for you. This is where opinions vary and "one man's trash becomes another man's treasure." Evo himself conceded that he once lost to a dog he got rid of.

Certainly, if Ch Blonka has that kind of ability ... and only stopped at the point of absolute fatigue ... she is worthy of a shot. Ch Nico (4xW, 1xL) lost to Gr Ch IBM ... but he out-produced IBM by a landslide.

So, my bad if Blonka's conditioning is what caused her the loss.

Jack

[FarmersChoice]

Great point.





Thank you for telling the whole story ...





Good for you. This is where opinions vary and "one man's trash becomes another man's treasure." Evo himself conceded that he once lost to a dog he got rid of.

Certainly, if Ch Blonka has that kind of ability ... and only stopped at the point of absolute fatigue ... she is worthy of a shot. Ch Nico (4xW, 1xL) lost to Gr Ch IBM ... but he out-produced IBM by a landslide.

So, my bad if Blonka's conditioning is what caused her the loss.

Jack
this were breeding programs can very makes u really scratch your head sometimes

[FarmersChoice]

this also reminds me when jeeps dad champion bo lost to lonzos vindicator but bo went on to produce light years better then vindicator imo

[Ez Country]

Breed for gameness the rest will come. If bred right those game plugs will produce you some of your best dogs. Ez's Tarzan was a game dog with no mouth he did have some talent as he would fight the throat and stay out of trouble. First litter he produced a 1xw1xlq, two others were f'd off. Second litter he produced 3 males all are bet worthy have seen 2 of em show some finish, 1 of which might be an Ace. Third litter is only 11 months old and are looking and acting killer

[Officially Retired]

I posted this on another thread, where it was relevant also, but Outback Kennels' Gr Ch Junior (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9955) is an interesting study of how Champions & Grand Champions in the 4th Generations ... can become losers and unmatched dogs in the 2nd & 3rd Generations ... but who, when interbred one once again, once again produce a 6xW Grand Champion.

This goes to show that, if you're confident in your line, you don't need to panic if you don't have Champions & Gr Champions in every generation ... people need to realize no one does. Game bums off of aces are okay ... and it's also okay to line breed on them :)

All you have to do is keep re-shuffling the deck and, if you make the right choices and hang onto the right traits, you will once again have complete dogs.

Jack

[pig mad]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9747

this is my old dog in question

[Black Hand]

Original post doesnt make to much sense as far as what the guy is telling you. What I am getting from the post is, guy tells you dont bother breeding to a Ch that died last time out because he was only game... aka saying hes a loser? If this is correct, I would stop talking to that guy asap.

As far as breeding to dogs lacking in areas, for me it would come down to how the dog is bred. If the dog is wound real tight then you should expect some areas to come up short. This is what I have been taught. But that doesnt mean that dog will not throw those traits you are looking for especially if you open it up and add a shot of new blood in there. Example; you having a real tight jeep dog that isnt all what you are looking for but has the minimum of your requirements. If you were to take him to a 50/50 jeep redboy cross, that extra 25% of redboy may be what them pups needed. This is all hypothetical of course, just an example in a perfect world as its much more variables and not so simple.

[pig mad]

The ch beat him thats why he running it down i think but my way of thinking would you not talk it up id rather habe lost to a alround good dog than just a game 1 hahaha

[ResidentKennel]

It is all about taste. I love a game plug, even if it's hard to win with a dog that's just game. Gameness is what separates our dogs from any other breed, and imo should therefore be the most appreciated trait. In my experience you can always add ability and what you think is missing in that game plug by selective breedings. Trust me on this one, it's hard winning with a dog thats just plain game, it's even harder winning with a rough cur.

I agree. Gameness IMO is a good starting point for anyone. There is alway's the possibility of gaining ability and other traits. I feel comfortable and love my game plugs.

[Black Hand]

I agree. Gameness IMO is a good starting point for anyone. There is alway's the possibility of gaining ability and other traits. I feel comfortable and love my game plugs.

From what I have been taught, it is the only starting point. It is the hardest trait to add and maintain.

[FrostyPaws]

The ch beat him thats why he running it down i think but my way of thinking would you not talk it up id rather habe lost to a alround good dog than just a game 1 hahaha

I'd rather not lose at all whether to a good dog or just a game dog. Losing sucks.

[pig mad]

For sure..