scatter bred v's line bred

[pig mad]

Whats everyones opinions on this?

If you just bred best to best are you always going to get hybrid vigour?

I been told first cross makes best battle dogs?

I been getting help off a fella to get started but once you look at his peds they all scatter bred dogs everything i read makes me dodge scatter breeding.
I am no breeder just interested on thoughts and experiances.
From what i see scatter bred will battle but not produce and if thats right why has this fella been breeding that way for 20 years??

[OGDOGG]

First, you have to look at his track record. Then you look at his opponents. Are they top notch bulldogs?
What I noticed with scattered bred dogs are, they tend to attack everywhere, chest, shoulders, legs. Wherever they can put their mouth on. The good trait they seem to possess is mouth. My hardest biting dogs I have or had in the past were scattered bred dogs. But one trait I didn't like about them was their style. Against other scattered bred dogs they were unstoppable but against a well bred dog, they don't have a chance. I also notice that if you breed scattered bred dogs, you will never know what you'll get. It's like the roll of the dice. It takes too long just to establish a good line with scattered bred dogs.

[pig mad]

His track record is not good i have some good line bred dogs i will stick to what i think is right..

[Black Hand]

There will not be much uniformity with scatter breeding.

If you just bred best to best are you always going to get hybrid vigour?

If you are just breeding best to best there will be no hybrid vigor.
They will not really be hybrids after the first and second cross IMO
You want to concentrate the gene pool and then provide an outcross when necessary.
the new blood into your gene pool is what will provide the hybrid vigor.

This doesn't mean the damage is done though just cuz your good dog is outcrossed to hell.
You can build uniformity and get what you are looking for threw selective breeding.
Your numbers just wont be the same at first... or maybe they will.
Its no telling if a dog will produce himself or not regardless of what the paper says.

Its a gamble either way, your odds are just better with different scenarios.

[pig mad]

Thanks for that.
I just put 1 of his dogs over my bitch she was an out cross his was solid redboy on the bottom but scattered on top she had the pups last night i am thinking of keeping 1 at worst it will make a good pig dog but thought it may mix well with my line bred jeep male if she turns out good. Just the scatter breeding on top made me worry..

[FarmersChoice]

well i was once told all blood lines suck or all blood lines can produce good dogs i think when we talk scatter bred and line bred most dont even no what that means line bred is on a single dog or a single family related to a few special related dogs any way i run my own line now of about 4 different lines and used family related dogs now i am just getting it down and have many years of proving grounds to go but i have a good group guys helping me with my line as well anyway these dogs are all related some were usually i would focus on what ever dogs u like and make your own path with out reinventing the wheel so to speak alot good dogs might be looked at as scater bred but are actually line bred on certain good dogs or dog that the individual breeding the dogs up might find he liked or is working for them some my best ogs were 3 way crosses or 4 way but that dont mean nothing u have to go threw every breeding with a strict culling process involved that doesnt mean u have to put own all those that dont make it just make sure u dont breed it or let some one else now these are just the way i deem things breedings alot luck do what u can to have the best odds like poker

[pig mad]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=122

The breeding is not far from related realy the skull dog is line bred ch bronco and bronco is already there then the redboy is on both sides aswell the only 1 i can't follow is through odens warrior but he was best roll dog of the area at the time. My bitch is outcross from gator blood to banjo cause of stamina but she got plenty of it to if she was still gator not outcross probably look better, Bronco/redboy/?/redboy/banjo/jeep with a splash of redboy and bronco in there already.
Main problem is i dont have room to keep em all and i feel that is whats needed but i have another bitch i am waiting to come in season i am more keen on that litter they are proven and tested all the way the litter that came out last night got a few pig dogs on fathers side wich leaves the doubt.. Just thinking out loud looking for opinions...

[pig mad]

If i keep a bitch and she turns out good i can breed her back to this guy

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=122

he is a red hot young dog always looking for trouble at 7 months old and he is hard to get off when shit hits the fan he loves it

[Black Hand]

Thanks for that.
I just put 1 of his dogs over my bitch she was an out cross his was solid redboy on the bottom but scattered on top she had the pups last night i am thinking of keeping 1 at worst it will make a good pig dog but thought it may mix well with my line bred jeep male if she turns out good. Just the scatter breeding on top made me worry..

No worries. Ideally most would want to use anther inbred dog as an outcross to their linebred dog. But i do not know how much of a difference it makes if it is just being used as an out. Someone with more breeding experience than me might have a better idea. but m uneducated guess would be your scatterbred dog crossed to a linebred dog will add similiar vigor you are looking for when doing a 50/50 cross.

[pig mad]

This breeding was done for the other fella my bitch is lacking nothing she is an out already pretty much just payment to use 1 of his bitchs as out for my sorrells just wondering if it worth the gamble to keep a pup out of this litter. I will keep a bitch out of it i think..

[Officially Retired]

There will not be much uniformity with scatter breeding.


True.





If you just bred best to best are you always going to get hybrid vigour?
If you are just breeding best to best there will be no hybrid vigor.
They will not really be hybrids after the first and second cross IMO

If there is no regard for consistency, you may (or may not) get hybrid vigor, but you can't do so dependably.

Just because there is a "cross" doesn't mean anything meaningful will obtain as far as "vigor" goes. Some of the lamest bums I have ever seen were "straight crosses" :lol:

Some of the best, strongest, most intelligent, and most intense animals I have ever seen have been INbred ... on the right dogs :idea:





You want to concentrate the gene pool and then provide an outcross when necessary.
the new blood into your gene pool is what will provide the hybrid vigor.


If you inbreed on the right dogs, you will not need a cross :idea:





This doesn't mean the damage is done though just cuz your good dog is outcrossed to hell.
You can build uniformity and get what you are looking for threw selective breeding.
Your numbers just wont be the same at first... or maybe they will.


True, some outcrosses just "click" ... and they work well in high-percentage ... and when "that" happens, you have the makings of a whole new potential bloodline and breeding effort :)





Its no telling if a dog will produce himself or not regardless of what the paper says.


The only way to tell if a dog can produce is to breed it ... and to breed it enough different ways to see if there is a pattern and dependable prepotency that can be established ... which means the young have to be allowed to mature and be evaluated. This process can take up to 5 years to bloom, and many people make their decisions too quickly, either way, based on just the first few pups. Only enough variety, and the light of Time's perspective, can say for sure.





Its a gamble either way, your odds are just better with different scenarios.

I hear this all the time and, well, if breeding is "just a gamble" ... then scatterbreeding is playing with an unknown deck in someone else's house ... while linebreeding on the right dogs is stacking your own deck and counting your own cards in familiar territory ;)

Jack

[CRISIS]

I hear this all the time and, well, if breeding is "just a gamble" ... then scatterbreeding is playing with an unknown deck in someone else's house ... while linebreeding on the right dogs is stacking your own deck and counting your own cards in familiar territory ;)

Jack

ive been searching for an anology like that to describe this situation for the longest!..............dont be surprised if you hear that again someday jack cuz im bout to steal that shit!!! LOL

[Officially Retired]

LMAO :D

[EWO]

So what happens when you end up with this scatter bred dog and he/she can really bring home the mail. What are some of the theories breeding this dog with multiple bloodlines. Do you pick one strain and concentrate on that? Do you pick the traits you desire and match those traits to the 'consistent' line within him/her and go that route? It is hard to know the history of the scatter bred dog so other than admitting to going in blind or guessing or playing the gamble which route?
EWO

[Abe]

Following ewos question closely. What I think I've learned from the book is to inbreed as tight as you can on that one dog till you are able to create a nice foundation then line breed from there still as tight as possible. Find a similar female that carries traits that mimic the male then Take the offspring back to the one your trying to recreate. This is meant as a question if I understand correctly.

[Officially Retired]

So what happens when you end up with this scatter bred dog and he/she can really bring home the mail.

I personally would never "end up with" a scatter-bred dog :idea:




What are some of the theories breeding this dog with multiple bloodlines. Do you pick one strain and concentrate on that? Do you pick the traits you desire and match those traits to the 'consistent' line within him/her and go that route? It is hard to know the history of the scatter bred dog so other than admitting to going in blind or guessing or playing the gamble which route?
EWO

I would really do my research on his immediate ancestors and determine if that dog is a "fluke" ... or if there were family members (brothers/sisters/mother+mates/sire+mates/ etc.) that carried those characteristics also.

If so, I would purchase/breed to those family members with those tratis; if not, I wouldn't personally waste my time breeding the dog and raising its offspring.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Following ewos question closely. What I think I've learned from the book is to inbreed as tight as you can on that one dog till you are able to create a nice foundation then line breed from there still as tight as possible. Find a similar female that carries traits that mimic the male then Take the offspring back to the one your trying to recreate. This is meant as a question if I understand correctly.

Right.

After selecting those family members that possessed those traits (if any), I would then make strategic breedings to carry forward with and reproduce them.

After a couple years waiting for the resulting pups to grow up & get schooled, I would then select those offspring that possessed these key traits I was after ... and then start the next steps with my breeding program, using the 7 basic breeding patterns (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/content.php?171) (and plugging-in the right dogs) to carry this torch.

Jack

[Abe]

Thanks for the link. Ive read that chapter more times then ill admit to but need to read it more. Someday it will all stick

[EWO]

Considering for me I have only seen this one time it is a moot point, but just for the purpose of education I would like to hear the thoughts. Like always, there was a "guy"...He had a female that had every major blood line out there in her. She was bought out of the newspaper. The young kid that bought her pawned her off on his Mom who could not handle a dog with that much energy. She was given away for free with two bags of dog food, an igloo, a welded steel wire kennel and a set of papers that was a who's who of the bull dog world, watered down to boot. Basically he 'helped' the lady out to get the $500 pen. This bitch dropped'em like flies. She won four with three [ ] RIP's. She had a sense of finish that was unreal. Relentless. She herself was all one could ask for on show night, and more. I would roll the dice on a bitch like this in a program. As expected, I would not look for consistency in every pup of every litter. So what would be the plan? Breed to certain areas of her pedigree and then bring those together as they work out? Or father-daughter breedings? Like I said, I know the obvious answers about the eventual waste of time but if one were to have seen her I believe even the most demanding breeder would try to work her into the program. EWO

[Abe]

From what ive learned i would do Son x Mother ( since she was the star ) then then take the best of that brother x sister Then maybe find which line closes they follow as far as traits style that i love and start to line breed from there keeping semen on every male that prove to perform like the main star that started the desire. Yes i know that is close as it can be but in my mind the best way to stop shuffling the deck is take out as many bad cards as possible ( culling ) and breed the best. Looking forward to hearing out looks on my thoughts
This all is if you dont have access to whats before her and she is just a random dog off the street.

[TFX]

Sounds similar to Rushin's GRCH 35 story. 35 never produced much for ol' Bill.

[EWO]

Very similar story. The funny thing is this young guy was just getting into the dogs. He went out and spent some serious $$$ with some well known and respected dog people. She moved herself from way in the back to right up front, one chain spot at a time. This bitch didn't either. She was bred to three really nice males that had produced themselves. Got one to the show and a game plug from three breedings. They were bred together as a 1/2 bro-sis breeding. They did not measure up either. I asked the question because every line has a starting point before it becomes its own and I imagine there are some that are filled with multiple lines themselves. EWO

[skipper]

Best dogs I've had were 2,3 or even 4 way crosses. I'm no a breeder though. However I like to start out with lets say a 3 way cross. You have 3 options when breeding him. You can try to take him back to all the blood in him and from there start inter/line breeding. Eli/carver-Bolio/tombstone are crosses i prefer.

[OGDOGG]

How about keeping 2-3 pure lines between kennel partners, and use the crossed dogs as working dogs and the pure as brood.

[skipper]

I prefer to only keep working dogs. Only working dogs will get bred. It's one thing to check a dog in school. True colours are shown in hunts. jmho

[OGDOGG]

I hear ya. I wouldn't keep a cold dog in my yard if someone paid me to. I also wouldn't keep a game plug either. The ones qualify to stay here are the ones ready to be shown. The game plugs and retired dogs could stay with the other partners because since they can't condition a dog, they need to be useful somehow.

[skipper]

A game plug can be very valuable if he is bred the right way. But i understand what you are saying. Only dogs good enough to show are good enough to keep. The best show dogs will get bred the most and their best offspring and so on. This is how we do it. Not saying this is the only way to do it. Works fine for us though.

[FrostyPaws]

True colours are shown in hunts. jmho

This could not be further from the truth in a lot of aspects. Is it possible to see true colors in a show? Sure. It's surely not the only way, and it's not the way that happens most often. If you're a person that likes to look at a dog for a bit here and there and let the show be whatever, then you may see that.

If you're a person that likes to know what you have before you step into that arena, you can see all you want at the house MOST of the time, barring running into a legitimate bad dog. There have been dogs that stepped out of the home box with their faces missing, half missing, legs broken with some amputated due to the severity, etc etc. I've seen similar things happen a lot more often at home with two serious dogs than a show where 98% of the time, one dog is clearly better than the other, and it basically amounts to a snowball effect for the loser.

If someone thinks true colors are shown in matches, then I'm of the mindset they've never seriously wanted to see what true colors were all about, and that's okay. We all want different things out of our dogs that we breed and/or show.

[skipper]

This could not be further from the truth in a lot of aspects. Is it possible to see true colors in a show? Sure. It's surely not the only way, and it's not the way that happens most often. If you're a person that likes to look at a dog for a bit here and there and let the show be whatever, then you may see that.

If you're a person that likes to know what you have before you step into that arena, you can see all you want at the house MOST of the time, barring running into a legitimate bad dog. There have been dogs that stepped out of the home box with their faces missing, half missing, legs broken with some amputated due to the severity, etc etc. I've seen similar things happen a lot more often at home with two serious dogs than a show where 98% of the time, one dog is clearly better than the other, and it basically amounts to a snowball effect for the loser.

If someone thinks true colors are shown in matches, then I'm of the mindset they've never seriously wanted to see what true colors were all about, and that's okay. We all want different things out of our dogs that we breed and/or show.


Why put your dog through that kind of stuff at home? Why take that out of your dog before you even get to show it? If a dog is killing another one in school i pick the bottom dog up. If it's not up to standard I'll cull it. No need to skulldrag dogs in rolls. That's what the shows are for. I'm well aware that a show doesn't equally means you get to see your dog getting put under alot of pressure. If not you get the win and you put him out there again. Eventually you will run into a dog that will test your dog. And if not, great you got yourself something very special.

[skipper]

If you for some reason aren't able to match a dog, THEN and only then could I see the use of roll your dog like a hard show. That for me will never be the norm though.

[FrostyPaws]

How are shows used to skulldrag dogs when 95% of shows end with one dog quitting in under 45 minutes? There are very seldom ANY skulldragging aspects in shows. Does it happen? Sure, but it surely doesn't happen often enough to say your dog has seen any bottom during a show. If a person wants to see gameness, then you're going to have to take it upon yourself most of the time to see exactly that. If a person wants to see if a dog can win, then show it. Those two don't walk hand-in-hand in any sense of the word most of the time.

Yes, eventually you may run into a dog that could have your dog quit, but that has so many different variables in regards to the quality of dog you're showing and the quality of the opponent.

I've never had an issue with doing things at home, because in the end, I'm more concerned with gameness than I am with winning a show. Winning shows are easy once a person goes out and sees the kind of dogs that regularly win. Showing dogs, to me, has always been about showing the absolute BEST dogs from the yard. The GOOD dogs can kick up dust and settle it at the house. I want the backbone of my breeding program to be based around and on dogs that have been under serious pressure and withstood that pressure. If/when I run into the BEST dog that may not ever see that, well, that dog has a place also.

All that being said, my original point was that true colors are usually seen a lot more readily at home than any show IF a person wants to see such a thing.

[skipper]

To be honest this has not been the case for me. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying what makes sense to me in my situation. If I'm not leaving the yard to check my dogs I have no clue what the competition is. To me this is about winning shows. Not making stories at home on how good and game your dogs are. I rather show 3 dogs from a litter with 2 of em being average then just showing the best one. I learn 3 times as much by showing all 3 of em. This is just how I see it. Getting as many shows as I can and winning as many as I can. If I get my ass kicked, I learn something from that too. Not leaving the yard will make you blind very fast.

[pig mad]

I see both your points of veiw as relevant.

[Black Hand]

What a dog shows u in a familiar environment with the luxury of being at home isn't always the same result you would have gotten had you been somewhere foreign. Good or bad.

[FrostyPaws]

To be honest this has not been the case for me. I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying what makes sense to me in my situation. If I'm not leaving the yard to check my dogs I have no clue what the competition is. To me this is about winning shows. Not making stories at home on how good and game your dogs are. I rather show 3 dogs from a litter with 2 of em being average then just showing the best one. I learn 3 times as much by showing all 3 of em. This is just how I see it. Getting as many shows as I can and winning as many as I can. If I get my ass kicked, I learn something from that too. Not leaving the yard will make you blind very fast.

No one ever said don't leave your yard to check your dogs. The entire idea of checking dogs is to simply do that: Check them. Most of the times during shows, there is no checking of dogs going on. You have one average dog beating another average dog with one quitting in 40 minutes. The difference is that someone lost money on an average dog just because they wanted to show a dog. It's not because that dog was the ideal match dog. It is simply due to someone wanting to match dogs. That is the category that most people fall into, and at one time, I was with you in that boat.

My philosophy changed over the years. I decided that if I were going to put my time into showing a dog, I'm going to take a match quality dog. The days were over where I was just gonna take a dog just to take one. The average dogs can be found out pretty quick just by the schooling process, and where they fall after that is where they fall. It doesn't take you matching a dog to learn anything about your dog aside from whether it can win or not. A person can learn a lot more about 2 dogs of equal size and abilities WITHOUT being conditioned than they ever can with them being conditioned. You're taking an advantage away from someone that has a lot more conditioning experience than the other, and the dogs are getting a chance to sort it out themselves with what they have. It's not about making up stories. It's about knowing the truth, and the truth is something man can never change. He can attempt to hide it, belittle it, but he can't change it.

What makes someone blind is a lack of an eye for a quality dog. Objectivity about what you think you own and what you actually own is what helps a person to see.

Black Hand, what a dog shows you under extreme pressure is what it is. There are no luxuries involved when things aren't going your way whether it's at your house or some other house. That's exactly why a person should make it a habit to take their dogs to other places so they never run into that situation. A person can eliminate a lot of variables if they put their mind to doing so.

The truth is there for all who really want to see it, and yes, when I started seeing the truth in dogs, it was very bitter indeed.

We swallow greedily any lie that flatters us, but we sip only little by little at a truth we find bitter. ~Denis Diderot

[evolutionkennels]

I am going to say this, I've seen rolls or off the chain matches that were far better than the shows. Some shows the dogs were overworked and By the time the show came around, they were a shadow of themselves. I've seen a dog win a show where I thought, I wouldnt feed that son of a bitch that won. Buck vs sandman made both dogs look average because they were so evenly matched. There are lots of variables. Personally, I like to keep two strains of the same line. I absolutely love the retarded crawl on all 4's swap it out tit for tat, screaming in the corner dog. But I also like the I'm going to finish you in the throat right away super smart super ability dog. For this reason, I am breeding all of Mr.Machobucks daughters to Machobear. The objective is to get one that has both qualities. I agree with both gentleman. The show is the ultimate test. Winning three proves something. However, as a breeder.. I know what I want, and I know what I have. Gameness for me in my line is important. If you told me I was going into the baddest straight ahead looking for the chest dog..I'd bring out Mr.Machobuck, if you told me I was going to need three hours, I'd bring machobear. But the objective is to end up with one that has all of those combined traits.

[EWO]

I agree with the show not being the measuring stick. It is quite the accomplishment and it was the original goal. My hat is off to all that win. With that said, I have seen a set of 2XWer's going for the championship and I would not have give a squirt a piss of either. One left that night a champion and that is truly a great accomplishments and I take nothing away from him or the fact he was brought out three times.
And checking two unconditioned dogs or doing two off the chain (for real off the chain) is a far better way to find out where a dog wants to be. If I miss in the keep, or have no idea of what I am doing and I run into someone who has their dog kept and on weight my dog will have to be two to three times better than him to even have a chance. Can it happen? Yes. But odds always say the unconditioned dog will succumb in the end, regardless of which of the two is better.

[OGDOGG]

Skipper has a point as far as showing out side his camp in order to know what he has vs what others got. I knew of a camp who bred and checked their dogs against each other. When they started showing them, every one of them lost and curred out. They finally realize back yard breeding and being kennel blind was getting them nowhere. So they bought new dogs and started schooling out side their camp and now they're doing better than before.
Frosty Paw also has a very good point too. If you already have dogs no one else can beat, why step outside to find out if he is worthy when you could just put that prospect against the best ones on your yard, who already whooped all others.
In the end it's all about the quality of the dog that prospect is showing against. The way I see it, if my young bitch can handle 30 minutes without getting killed by a killing machine who usually finish her opponents within that time frame, then she is a bad bitch in my eyes.

[EWO]

That pretty much happened with the scatter bred bitch I wrote about earlier. He bought dogs for a lot of $$$ from guys out there winning shows. She cleared the chain spots at every chance. She was that good. I had one close to the same weight and we used them to check each other. That bitch went on to pick up four W's. Mine picked up 2 herself. Six wins total between the two and none of the six delivered what that check did. Five more minutes between them and maybe this story never develops. These bitches never seen anything like each other in six times out. They were both winners but not any of the wins said "bulldog" more than their special time together. So it goes both ways. The true test does not have to be up and down the road, and the best show may not be the show itself. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

Skipper has a point as far as showing out side his camp in order to know what he has vs what others got. I knew of a camp who bred and checked their dogs against each other. When they started showing them, every one of them lost and curred out. They finally realize back yard breeding and being kennel blind was getting them nowhere. So they bought new dogs and started schooling out side their camp and now they're doing better than before.

This is very true, and that goes to show that those people's eye for quality dogs wasn't as good as they originally thought. That is the heart of the entire matter. I've known a lot of people whose dogs show well on one another, but they don't do so well outside the yard? Why is that? The quality isn't there, and the owner isn't able to distinguish chicken salad from chicken shit. If a person has seen his fair share of quality dogs, both from his own yard and others, they should start to see a pattern of quality. If they see it and don't learn, well, there's no help for those people. But again OG and Skipper, that has some more to do with the owner not knowing what good dogs are as opposed to just staying within their own yard.



Frosty Paw also has a very good point too. If you already have dogs no one else can beat, why step outside to find out if he is worthy when you could just put that prospect against the best ones on your yard, who already whooped all others.
In the end it's all about the quality of the dog that prospect is showing against. The way I see it, if my young bitch can handle 30 minutes without getting killed by a killing machine who usually finish her opponents within that time frame, then she is a bad bitch in my eyes.

If you have a bitch that sticks around for 30 minutes with a dog like you describe, you don't have just a good dog. You have a MATCH quality dog. If the yard is predominately made up of good, quality dogs, then you really have no reason to leave the yard when schooling or checking dogs when you have the ability to do that, at home, if you like. If you have a match quality dog out of that bunch, then jump on it. I'd rather show 2 or 3 match quality dogs and win multiple times than show two are three average dogs just to say I'm showing dogs.

[EWO]

Great posts. I think a lot of it can be done at home if the number of dogs is there and the quality of the dogs is there. One of the advantages of doing things away from home is the fact you do not have to have XXXXX amount of dogs and at then end of the day you only have to look after one dog. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways. I do agree mixing chicken shit with chicken salad just gets a larger pile of chicken shit. I knew a guy who never matched but a very few dogs but bred his share of dogs. He had a yard full of game dogs. He was hard on the dogs. Lots of his two year old dogs were sold, matched and won. We use to say if it is 2 years old at his house it is a bulldog in every sense of the word. He had top quality dogs and they consistently got better over the years. They won when matched just not by him. So once a person comes by his way he should believe in it and go with it. At the end of the day that is all that really matters ( but if you and your dogs are getting you asses handed to you, make a change...LOL..EWO

[Abe]

Just got schooled ! Great knowledge and education

[skipper]

This is what I like about dogs. Everybody have their own way of doing stuff, in the end it is you and only you who that need to be pleased. I too have seen multi winners that i would not feed. Make a plan and stick to it. Cull the ones you don't like and eventually you will end up with a decent stock. If one is satisfied with checking quality at home, that is great. I will do it different, but that doesn't automatically make my dogs any better than the guy who does it different.