Did Gainey's JR lose to Gr Ch Buck?

[Officially Retired]

Is it true that Gainey's JR (Yellow's brother) lost to Gr Ch Buck?

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

yes

[ResidentKennel]

Really? I didn't know that.

[Officially Retired]

"As a pup Buck was sold by Pat Patrick to a physician. He proved to be an unsatisfactory pet and was sold to the late Alan Waldman who matched and won two with Buck in the low 50's. One over Aldo's Zeke, who later became a Champion, and the other over Winchester's Conan. STP purchased Buck from Alan Waldman when Buck just turned 2 years old and campaigned him at his correct weight, 46 lbs. As soon as STP started to work Buck they saw he had incredible stamina. In STP's hands, Buck demolished all of his competition, which included some highly regarded match dogs. Buck did not dazzle fanciers with ten-minute wins, but he had virtually no weakness as a match dog and always dominated his opponent, no matter what style.

"Buck's first match, with STP, was into Tito's Tonka, which was no match for Buck as Tonka stopped in less than :30 minutes.

"His next was against Captain America's Jumbo Jim. Jumbo Jim was a double bred Gr. Ch. Hank dog, and was hand picked to defeat Buck. Jumbo made an incredible scratch at 1:30, but by 1:57 he collapsed in his corner unable to go.

"In Buck's 5th he went into Rodney's two time winner JR, littermate to Gr. Ch. Yellow ROM. JR was handled at :52 minutes and could not go any further. JR later went on to win three more.

"For Buck's 6th match was against P. & H.'s Rocky, a rough son of Ch. Jeep and Gr. Ch. Miss Rage. Rocky was picked up in a little over an hour. Rocky went on to win his championship after another loss to Super Gnat's Gr. Ch. Ace.

"At this point Buck was retired as a 6 time winner and not yet 4 years old. I was conditioning Super Gnat's Gr.Ch. Ace for his 4th match, into P. & H.'s Rocky, when I received a call from STP. He explained that after 2 years of retirement, his Gr.Ch. Buck was contracted into Ricky Jones and Gr.Ch. Sandman, at 48 lbs. Both dogs were exceptionally seasoned match dogs with similar styles and STP predicted that the match would be a long one. This was the first time in history that two registered Grand Champions were to meet.

"Rebel Kennels Gr.Ch. Sandman was bred and raised by Ricky Jones from a Rascal / Jeep and Boomerang cross. Word had it that Ricky was able to take some of the unwanted dogs from some very good dogmen, and by sheer determination and good sense Ricky had bred bulldogs that could compete and win over the best in the country. Some of the best match dogs, at any weight, were either owned by Rebel Kennels, or were matched into Rebel Kennels.

"There were about 25 fanciers waiting for the match to start. My friend Peter from Holland was betting on Sandman, while I was betting on Buck. This was the first time we were not on the same side of the betting. The dogs were released and Sandman shot over like a rocket and got a good hold. When Sandman got to the stifle, Buck slowly and deliberately got him out. Ricky got all excited and said that Bucks stifle was broken. For the first 20 minutes Sandman was all over Buck, but then Buck started to dominate the action. Buck was a little stronger and had a little heavier mouth. He was taking the match to Sandman, but neither could get much of a lead over the other. Both dogs could hardly be held in their corner as they rocketed across on their scratches. About an hour and a half into the match Sandman got a good hold on Buck's neck. As Buck tried to twist out of this hold, Sandman held on and a stalemate ensued. Sandman would not release his hold and Buck could not get free, so the two Grand Champions were locked motionless and time dragged on. It seemed that both dogs were asleep. Buck started to vocalize his frustration at being unable to move. Ricky became even more excited, interpreting the noise as a sign of Buck wanting to quit. Nothing could be further from the truth as Buck finally extricated from the hold and resumed his dominance over Sandman. Ricky not only began to denigrate Buck but also STP. At one point he said that he was going to kick Buck's ribs in because he was such a cur. I encouraged him to go ahead and do it since the foul would leave Buck the winner. I think that Ricky began to realize that Buck was going to beat his Sandman dog and this was his way of dealing with that possibility. No matter how many times and how many ways Ricky verbally abused Buck and STP he never let it bother him. STP stayed with his dog and ignored all the outside shenanigans. STP gave fanciers a good demonstration of coolness and decisiveness in a tough situation. This was an even match until at the end when Sandman began to falter and it was clear that Buck was going to win. At three hours and 17 minutes, after 3 more scratches Sandman took the count. Buck's courtesy scratch, was a running one and he slammed into Sandman.

"We hustled Buck into a nearby shed and I started an intravenous line. Buck received 10 cc's of Azium in about 800 mls of Ringers before he ripped the line out of his leg. In an adjacent shed, Ricky worked in an effort to save Sandman. I was told that he gave Sandman an injection of Epinephrine, which is often used by human rescue personnel. The shot of "Epi" as it is known to the members of the rescue squad, killed Sandman immediately. Buck would not be still so I stopped the IV, which had leaked into the surrounding tissue. Buck stayed at my house for two weeks after the match, recovering from his ordeal. At 5:00 AM every morning, Buck would start his scream / howl, which echoed throughout the house. When I walked him outside, Buck would try to lunge at the other dogs in my yard, even though he could hardly stand up. It was obvious that his spirit had not been broken in spite of the lengthy battle with Sandman. Once recovered Buck went back to STP's and the old warrior lived the good life, breeding bitches and eating good food until he died."

~ Barney Fife

[Officially Retired]

That is a helluva record, when you look at it.

Buck beat Aldo's Ch Zeke, Gainey's (otherwise Gr) Ch JR., P&H's Ch Rocky, as well as Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sandman.

That is 2 Grand Champions and 2 Champions, as well as 3 other dogs from top dogmen. I don't know why I had forgot about him beating Yellow's brother, as I had read all of this before when Barney Fife's article came out in the Journal many years ago, but for some reason (in a conversation I had last night) it just struck me. I also remember reading something from STP where Buck got into it with Ch Booger ROM and was wrecking this great dog as well, before the kennel accident was stopped.

Anyway, just thinking out loud what a great dog Gr Ch Buck really was :idea:

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Yes sir he was, and I keep his stuff right.

[Officially Retired]

Good deal.

It seems that Buck and Yellow have a whole lotta history together ... from his brother going into Buck ... to his sister getting bred to Buck ... and from people like you and Stone City interbreeding a whole line of dogs based on these interbreedings.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Zeke was matched over 10 times I think, and he quit more than once in his long show career.

[Officially Retired]

Still had to be a helluva dog to compete in and survive 10 matches (unless he quit early each time, lol).

[waccamaw]

i never heard that one .and i live right here where he was at .if he did it was kept a big secret.not to mention why would melvin gainey keep him,when he would put one down in a heart beat.

[Officially Retired]

i never heard that one .and i live right here where he was at .if he did it was kept a big secret.not to mention why would melvin gainey keep him,when he would put one down in a heart beat.

The dog didn't quit, he lost game and won 3 more.

Jack

[waccamaw]

can y'all proove he won over JR .i am in the middle of Buck country and redboy /jocko country .and just can't remember anything about this .not saying it did not happen just don't know about it .

[evolutionkennels]

Stp told me. But was super impressed with Jr

[FarmersChoice]

maybe he lost game i think is what it was and was giving another go says he went on town three more times so im sure there glad they kept him around lol either way u pick up 3 more wins after loosing to one the best ever u cant look down on that

[Officially Retired]

can y'all proove he won over JR .i am in the middle of Buck country and redboy /jocko country .and just can't remember anything about this .not saying it did not happen just don't know about it .

Look at the published record I put on the first page of this thread.

It was written by Barney Fife, who was not only friends with STP, but he is the man who saved Buck after the Sandman match.

Jack

[waccamaw]

i hate to be the one to tell y'all but ,i just talked with an old man that was at all of JR's hunts .he said buck was not in one of the hunts ,and MELVIN GAINEYS son is still around and he is the one who handled JR in all his hunts..the old man i am talking about is 80 years old .still hunts.he told me to tell anybody to call him if they wanted details on Jr.

[cdj396]

Just talk to CARL MIMS he said GAINEY'S JR beat everything put in front of him. HE and MELVIN GAINEY were friends thanks tj

[waccamaw]

Plus in order to be a gr ch you have to win 5 straight to be legit same with a ch.

[Officially Retired]

i hate to be the one to tell y'all but ,i just talked with an old man that was at all of JR's hunts .he said buck was not in one of the hunts ,and MELVIN GAINEYS son is still around and he is the one who handled JR in all his hunts..the old man i am talking about is 80 years old .still hunts.he told me to tell anybody to call him if they wanted details on Jr.

Well, somebody's got it wrong, and of course it's hard to say who.

This is why I originally asked the question, because I wasn't sure. I don't see how a dog as famous as Gr Ch Buck (or dogmen as good and famous as Barney Fife and STP) could have "got it wrong" as to who Grand Champion Buck whipped for #5. Keep in mind, STP also owned Yellow's sister, so he has to have some idea about who Yellow and his littermates are. This is the direct quote from Barney Fife:


"In Buck's 5th he went into Rodney's two time winner JR, littermate to Gr. Ch. Yellow ROM. JR was handled at :52 minutes and could not go any further. JR later went on to win three more."

I mean, how many "JRs" can there be, that were brothers to Yellow, and who also won a total of 5x?

It seems either the top veterans STP and Barney Fife are wrong ... or some "old man" is wrong (or, possibly, the old man and those associated with JR are trying to sweep a disappointing loss under the carpet :idea:).

Anyway, it's hard to say for sure, since none of us was there, but it is an interesting factoid nonetheless.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Well, somebody's got it wrong, and of course it's hard to say who.

This is why I originally asked the question, because I wasn't sure. I don't see how a dog as famous as Gr Ch Buck (or dogmen as good and famous as Barney Fife and STP) could have "got it wrong" as to who Grand Champion Buck whipped for #5. Keep in mind, STP also owned Yellow's sister, so he has to have some idea about who Yellow and his littermates are. This is the direct quote from Barney Fife:


"In Buck's 5th he went into Rodney's two time winner JR, littermate to Gr. Ch. Yellow ROM. JR was handled at :52 minutes and could not go any further. JR later went on to win three more."

I mean, how many "JRs" can there be, that were brothers to Yellow, and who also won a total of 5x?

It seems either the top veterans STP and Barney Fife are wrong ... or some "old man" is wrong (or, possibly, the old man and those associated with JR are trying to sweep a disappointing loss under the carpet :idea:).

Anyway, it's hard to say for sure, since none of us was there, but it is an interesting factoid nonetheless.

Jack

It is what it is. BUCK was a superstar. The man who hosted the Buck vs Sandman show lost to Machobuck with a 1xer , he publicly said thatch two best pit dogs that he ever saw in his 40 years of dogging was Buck and Machobuck, and he couldn't tell you which one was better. He said sandman would have killed BUCK in 5 minutes if he could touch him, but Buck was too slick. He said Machobuck was slick as glass and had Jocko finish. Interestingly enough, they are very related. JR. did lose to Buck. However as it stands today, in my humble opinion, the Buck line wouldn't be where it is today if not for redboy jocko. Like Jack said, yellow and Jr.s littermate sister sassy had an all game litter with Buck. Yellowbuck, butkus piggy, Nico rom mss leaky. Blondie rom, all of this wouldn't be possible withoutbthe redboy jocko.

[evolutionkennels]

maybe he lost game i think is what it was and was giving another go says he went on town three more times so im sure there glad they kept him around lol either way u pick up 3 more wins after loosing to one the best ever u cant look down on that

He was picked up game. Story was so impressed he bred Buck to Jr.'s sister ch. Sassy. And from stp 's mouth, every single dog from that litter made the cut.

[waccamaw]

No doubt he was a good dog ,ask yourself this .why has never been mentioned before ?and you had Rodney's jr when it was gainers jr ,Melvin's son who handled his name was russ..maybe it was another JR.but I don't see .,how it matters both dogs were. Great dogs .in a great time .how ever JR destroyed everything in front of him.

[Officially Retired]

No doubt he was a good dog ,ask yourself this .why has never been mentioned before?

It has been mentioned before: Barney Fife wrote that piece in the 1990s.




and you had Rodney's jr when it was gainers jr ,Melvin's son who handled his name was russ..

I didn't have it, Barney Fife did. I don't know why it was listed as Rodney's.




maybe it was another JR.but I don't see .,how it matters both dogs were. Great dogs .in a great time .

Maybe it was, but then again, how many dogs named "JR" could there possibly be ... who were both littermates to Gr Ch Yellow and 5xWs?

Don't see how it could be different dogs ... makes more sense to think some details got messed up along the way, but it has to be the same JR.




how ever JR destroyed everything in front of him.

If it is the same JR, then he destroyed everything in his path ... except Buck.

Like Evo said, JR's extreme quality (even with the loss) is what made STP breed his sister to Buck ... and the rest (as they say) is history :)

Jack

[waccamaw]

Makes me wonder why nobody else knew about .if a man can mess up on one detail he can mess up on another,correct?jr was known as Melvin gainers jr ,that sounds nothing like Rodney's jr .and stp and Barney were good friends ,right.?i know several men that seen all JR's hunts .they all said he never met buck..ow if they had don't y'all think this would have been talked about before now ? It never happened ,but I will say both dogs were solid ,.

[cdj396]

Talk back to Carl Mims he said someone was not right he said GAINERS JR never lost tj

[waccamaw]

Well Carl Mimi's called me tonight,he said Barney told him that buck or sandman were not worth saving.said it was a dull show a lot of laying around.and he confirmed JR NEVER WENT AGAINST BUCK.I think this will be my last post on the subject .I don't want to get anything started .i know evo has some good dogs.if anybody. Wants to know full details on Gaineys Jr .contact BFKC C.MIMMS. I am trying to get him to write a book.the man is full of history on the dogs .Ca Jack you need to get with him on a book deal ,with his history and your writing skills. Think about it.

[Officially Retired]

Well Carl Mimi's called me tonight,he said Barney told him that buck or sandman were not worth saving.said it was a dull show a lot of laying around.and he confirmed JR NEVER WENT AGAINST BUCK.I think this will be my last post on the subject .I don't want to get anything started .i know evo has some good dogs.if anybody. Wants to know full details on Gaineys Jr .contact BFKC C.MIMMS. I am trying to get him to write a book.the man is full of history on the dogs .Ca Jack you need to get with him on a book deal ,with his history and your writing skills. Think about it.


Barney Fife's own words about Buck can be found in the article he took the time to write to the Journal, in which he publicly said Buck had virtually no weaknesses as a match dog ...

Not to mention the fact that, as a competitor, STP has 10x the match record of Carl Mims, with multiple Chs and Gr Chs to his own personal show credit, and he likewise publicly said Buck was the best he ever owned ... so if Carl Mims is saying "something else" then I wouldn't trust anything he said.

To say a dog the caliber of Buck "wasn't worth saving" puts anything that person says after that into the Bullshit Pile, as far as I am concerned.

Jack

(Since Carl isn't here to defend himself, we should leave him out of this, really. But I have seen the actual writings of the men in question I quoted, and am not going off of supposed phone conversations.)

[FarmersChoice]

honestly barney is not a man i would hold true to his word i know his partner from back in the day and he was a bit fictitious

[Nextlevel]

which bloodline/descendants are producing the best results these days?

[evolutionkennels]

I stand corrected.. it was not Jr. I CALLED STP, SAID IT WAS A VINCE COOPER BRED ANIMAL. THAT IT INDEED WAS RODNEY NOT GAINEY. I SPOKE TO THE OLD MAN FOR AN HOUR. WHAT A LEGEND. SO SONNY, I'LL BE THE FIRST TO SAY, I WAS WRONG, YOU WERE RIGHT.

[Officially Retired]

I stand corrected.. it was not Jr. I CALLED STP, SAID IT WAS A VINCE COOPER BRED ANIMAL. THAT IT INDEED WAS RODNEY NOT GAINEY. I SPOKE TO THE OLD MAN FOR AN HOUR. WHAT A LEGEND. SO SONNY, I'LL BE THE FIRST TO SAY, I WAS WRONG, YOU WERE RIGHT.

That would make my belief wrong as well.

Actually, the one who was truly wrong was Barney Fife, as I merely quoted his own report verbatim.

I guess I am glad I asked the question to begin with! The reason I asked the question is I heard this statement made in a casual conversation, and I thought there would be more hooplah surrounding a brother to Yellow losing to Buck, and so made this post. I then came upon Barney Fife's submitted letter/report, and it is written plain as day that "JR lost to Buck," so it looks like Barney Fife is ultimately responsible for the misinformation.

So I retract my statements to Sonny as well ... looks like his information was, in fact, correct :mrgreen:

Jack

[Officially Retired]

honestly barney is not a man i would hold true to his word i know his partner from back in the day and he was a bit fictitious

You called it!

[evolutionkennels]

You called it!

Actually, He was right.. It was RODNEY'S not Gainey's, but he was no brother to Yellow, he was of Vince Cooper breeding.However, from the HORSES MOUTH that owned Buck.. some history. He did say J.R. was a fine animal, a true finisher, in his opinion, Gr.Ch.John Boy was he best rbj dog ever. He said he was an Ace. But when he bred to Ch.Sassy.. NONE of them made the cut. He then bred to Buck , and all his pups off that breeding were 8-9 months old, He decided ,"Hell.. I aint in the breeding business, I gave Sassy back to Tant. Later when EVERY SINGLE dog out of the Buck-Sassy litter was a standout, I wanted her back. I did get her back after TAnt made the breedings that made AAA and others, but she was old. I repeated the breeding to Buck, but all the pups died .. Sassy's milk just wasnt any good anymore. " There you go fellas, a piece of history.

[Officially Retired]

So "Rodney's JR" was the dog's name, but he was not a brother to Yellow, as stated?

[evolutionkennels]

So "Rodney's JR" was the dog's name, but he was not a brother to Yellow, as stated?

Correct

[waccamaw]

Hey ,it happens .no harm was done .heck we all make mistakes .but look what it did,it made people debate without cut downs.if this would have been Peds online ,how nasty would it have gotten?Albert ,you are a stand up guy.

[Officially Retired]

Good point Sonny.

What's funny is not only did Yellow have a brother named JR, he had a son named Rodney, so that is probably why Barney Fife thought the "Rodney's JR" Buck beat was Yellow's brother :lol:

Again, glad I asked this question, and thank you for researching it for us and setting me straight.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Hey ,it happens .no harm was done .heck we all make mistakes .but look what it did,it made people debate without cut downs.if this would have been Peds online ,how nasty would it have gotten?Albert ,you are a stand up guy.

Naaaa, you stuck to your guns... good job. It would have gotten as nasty as I got on Cominito for talking trash for a year.

[waccamaw]

LOL,they did get on you pretty heavy.but I got to give you and Jack props for admitting y'all was wrong,not many can or will do that,that say's something there .and jack I thought about Rodney being off jr and was thinking could be misprint I seen your points ..I was just glad to see a debate without all the negative Drama.MUCH RESPECT FELLA's. to you both!

[Albino Rhino]

Now see , this is how dog men SHOULD debate ... Nothing wrong with being misinformed , it was talked out and researched and the truth rose to the top .... Great job by all party's.

[Officially Retired]

LOL,they did get on you pretty heavy.but I got to give you and Jack props for admitting y'all was wrong,not many can or will do that,that say's something there .and jack I thought about Rodney being off jr and was thinking could be misprint I seen your points ..I was just glad to see a debate without all the negative Drama.MUCH RESPECT FELLA's. to you both!


Now see , this is how dog men SHOULD debate ... Nothing wrong with being misinformed , it was talked out and researched and the truth rose to the top .... Great job by all party's.

Nice observations, Waccamaw and Rhino, and well said.

None of us can be right all the time, and some of us will have better resources for certain matters than others ...

It's how we handle it that marks the difference between a community ... and a cluster**** ;)

Cheers,

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

LOL,they did get on you pretty heavy.but I got to give you and Jack props for admitting y'all was wrong,not many can or will do that,that say's something there .and jack I thought about Rodney being off jr and was thinking could be misprint I seen your points ..I was just glad to see a debate without all the negative Drama.MUCH RESPECT FELLA's. to you both!


Yeah, but I crushed him. Someone PM'ed me saying I California Jacked him.

[Officially Retired]

Yeah, but I crushed him. Someone PM'ed me saying I California Jacked him.

I haven't cracked my knuckles like that, and let someone have it (like you let him), for a long time now ... your verbal assault almost made me nostalgic :lol:

[cdj396]

Well if you need some more infor from one of the oldest and one of the best dog men out their let me no i will contact CARL MIMS thanks tj

[evolutionkennels]

I haven't cracked my knuckles like that, and let someone have it (like you let
him), for a long time now ... your verbal assault almost made me nostalgic :lol:

Well, you notice after your remark, it was silent. I'm sure none of them want to take on the task of evo plus Jack

[cdj396]

Youall do run a well infor and clean board thanks to youall tj

[Officially Retired]

Well, you notice after your remark, it was silent. I'm sure none of them want to take on the task of evo plus Jack

LMAO :mrgreen:

[Nextlevel]

I know how the buck stops (every 45 min) and where it stops.....

[Nextlevel]

Who has been the best producer poncho or macho Buck

[OGDOGG]

Who has been the best producer poncho or macho Buck
Combine the two line and you will have a smart head dog who will also have that killer instinct.

[Nextlevel]

i understand that and appreciate the insight but my question is/was between poncho an machobuck which was the better[]dog and has been the better producer

[CYJ]

Was glad to see this debate was handled in a much more civic manner. Much rougher on the on lines ped site. I knew Mr. M. Gainey and his sons on a personnel bases. Mr. Gainey was a top notch dog man and conditioner. Was not one for picking one up or bringing a quitter home.

He owned a lot of good dogs. One was called Eight Ball that was a full brother to my Face Bitch. If he had gotten into the game as a young man. Who knows what he could have done. He use to tickle me about anyone matching into V. Jackson my dog partner. He would tell me the only way to get too V.J. was to get his money. LOL We were all friendly competitors.