BREEDING COLD MALES??????

[skootermc]

WITH ALL THE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION WE HAVE ACCESS TO THESE DAYS WITH BREEDING PRINCIPLES ETC...WITH ALL THE KNOWLEDGE OF BREEDING .ie. BREEDING COLD DOGS IN GENERAL.WE ALL KNOW BREEDING COLD FEMALES HAVE BEEN DONE UMPTEEN TIMES IN CREATING OUR HOUNDS .NOW WHAT WOULD SOME OF THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVES OF BREEDING COLD MALES.

[Black Hand]

WITH ALL THE SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION WE HAVE ACCESS TO THESE DAYS WITH BREEDING PRINCIPLES ETC...WITH ALL THE KNOWLEDGE OF BREEDING .ie. BREEDING COLD DOGS IN GENERAL.WE ALL KNOW BREEDING COLD FEMALES HAVE BEEN DONE UMPTEEN TIMES IN CREATING OUR HOUNDS .NOW WHAT WOULD SOME OF THE POSITIVE AND NEGATIVES OF BREEDING COLD MALES.

Positives; not getting rid of a well bred dog? Everyones situtation is different. Maybe he is the last of his kind, idk.
Negatives; getting more cold dogs.

[skootermc]

TRUE STATEMENT BLACKHAND...WITH DNA PROFILING WE COULD REALLY CREATE THINGS BEFORE BREEDING ALTHOUGH WE DO HAVE TO CULL THE BAD ONES.THIS WAS JUST AN INTERESTING THOUGHT OF MINE...BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS HEAR OLDTIMERS TALKING OF BREEDING COLD FEMALES NOT MALES.BUT BACK THEN THEIR LOGIC AND INFO WAS LIMITED AND PRIMATIVE..ALTHOUGH I RESPECT THEIR CHOICES ETC BACK IN THOSE DAYS ..NOWADAYS WE CAN CLONE HUMANS AND ANIMALS IN A LAB (WOW)...

[FarmersChoice]

how exactly do u think dna profiling can recreate a dog there is cloning but that is very different

[skootermc]

i understand both profiling and cloning i was just making a point of all the aspects we have at disposal in this day and age...for exampple look at how the dna profiling of the machobuck bred dogs and their owners thoughts before hand and after dna profiling.

[FrostyPaws]

I've never understood the logic of breeding cold females but not males. If you're going to breed one cold dog, then what's really the hold up to not breeding the other?

It seems that the expectations of the females are just to have pups and damn the other things we look for in quality males. It's just something I never understood.

[FarmersChoice]

with so many good dogs out there why breed a cold one just what i feel on the subject

[tasoschatz]

Jack says somewhere in this forum that some times the good qualities skip a generation only to re-appear in the next one. I guess it depends what you have in hand and access to, how hard cull you intend to do and goes on and on. Very close inbreeding and hard cull is a way to get rid of flaws. Of course there is always the oposite stand that does make sence. I guess everyone is judged by the final result, so...

[R2L]

i understand good ones have come out out cold dogs, but i would personally use a good dog instead. its not like there is a lack of those ;)
if you keep the whole litter out of a cold dog, people have my blessings.

[FarmersChoice]

genes can skip but like i said there are so many out there that aint cold why do that at all to me cold dog is the worst kind they dont even start deff not a trait i want passed on

[CRISIS]

every situation has its circumstance..........if i personally felt like i had to?? sure i would do it...if i didnt...then i wouldnt...depends.....if i had a really good thing going for me on my yard and the only way to keep it going was to breed a cold one...why not? i mean thats pretty far fetched but shit does happen.....and hell who knows it may turn out to be a great breeding lol, but every situation is different for every person......

[skootermc]

I TOTALLY AGREE JUST A TOPIC WORTH OVERVIEW!!!!!!!

[CRISIS]

but its not really a black and white question with black & white answers........if someone ask's "hey would you breed a cold dog?" the answer should only be " if i have to!" lol.......if im so many generations deep and needing an out? then hell no i aint gonna breed to no cold dog lol.....but.....there are always exceptions and times when you need to do things you normally wouldnt........

[Officially Retired]

Loposay's Buster, Wiseman's Little Gator, and Sorrells' Bull were cold males ... who are behind more great dogs than 90% of the "hot/game" males that people would breed to ...

And if you add Chinaman & Dibo to the list of dogs that were cold ... until 4-5 years of age ... the argument could be even more compelling.

Most people with "high standards" and declare they "would never do this" ... or who declare "how fast" they would get rid of cold dogs/extremely late starters ... have likewise never bred/owned a single male that could out-produce the aforementioned.

Jack

[CRISIS]

good post...

[evolutionkennels]

I think breeding a cold female out of with bingo parents to a performing male from performing parents is the golden key.

[CRISIS]

i think genetics are a bitch! LMAO

[ResidentKennel]

It all depends on the circumstances. Sure, we all know our dogs or at least we think we do, and when it takes a little longer to show signs we are looking for we say he's cold. I have that exact situation right now. I have a 3 yr old who is the only one out of the litter and he doesn't act like his half siblings at all. Does it bother me? NO, he may or may not come around only time will tell.

[FrostyPaws]

I'd skip breeding to a cold anything when you can just easily find a dog that's not cold that's producing the quality of dogs you want.

[pig mad]

is there a difference between breeding cold and breeding a cur??

[CRISIS]

yes^^^

[Officially Retired]

I'd skip breeding to a cold anything when you can just easily find a dog that's not cold that's producing the quality of dogs you want.

Sometimes it is not "just as easy" to find a dog that's bred how you want that's "not cold."

For example, if Sorrells' Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=76) were still alive today (who was off of Klaus' Zeke bred to Bolio's sister--which is his own daughter), I would breed to Bull over most of the living "hot/game" males alive today, simply because IMO Klaus's Zeke was such a good dog.

I totally agree that if Sorrells' Bull had a living brother who was a helluva performer, and was demonstrably-game, that I would breed to the proven-game brother over the cold dog ... but if that cold dog is my only option I wouldn't hesitate. IMO, when there is a well-structured, super-bred individual dog ... that is inbred off of a critical animal, which is comprised of what I consider to be a vital gene pool to my line ... I would breed to such a dog in a heartbeat ... and then select those offspring from the resulting litter(s) whose character/genes I felt obtained in the way I wanted them to.

Jack

Edit: With that said, I personally have only bred to one cold dog in my life (Bolo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=966)), and I only did that as an experiment.

[pig mad]

So if you only bred once to a cold dog as an experiment does that mean it didnt go the way you had hoped?

[Officially Retired]

No, I did it to see what would happen.

There were some good dogs, and bad dogs, like in every other litter, LOL

Jack

[TFX]

Still kills me that I had the chance to breed to this dog's brother and didn't. A good shot of ZEKE in this one, plus a lot of other common blood. This is a case where the breeder's name matters very little, but the dogs were sure bred right.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=32040

[Officially Retired]

I hear you.

When I was a lot younger, I had the chance to breed to a lot of great dogs, but didn't, because of the "human names" on the pedigree ... they weren't "famous" (LOL) ... but the dogs sure were bred right.

As I put more years behind me, it turns out the "non-famous" names in the pedigrees were actually good dogman who kept a low profile, so basically I blew it :(

That is what the "If Only" chapter was for in my book "The Hollingsworth Dogs":angry:

Jack

[AGK]

:)

[SwampDweller]

Loposay's Buster, Wiseman's Little Gator, and Sorrells' Bull were cold males ... who are behind more great dogs than 90% of the "hot/game" males that people would breed to ...

And if you add Chinaman & Dibo to the list of dogs that were cold ... until 4-5 years of age ... the argument could be even more compelling.

Most people with "high standards" and declare they "would never do this" ... or who declare "how fast" they would get rid of cold dogs/extremely late starters ... have likewise never bred/owned a single male that could out-produce the aforementioned.

Jack

I agree totally! I wrote about this in my book, "Today's History Makers; Tomorrow's Legends", where I listed a couple cold bitches that produced remarkable animals (Garrett's IRENE, Garrett's RUBY & R.A. Fauls' BEE BEE). Most of their offspring became household names, that readily roll of the tongues of just about every serious competitor of the sport. But I also touched on my personal experience with a cold male (BLACKIE MOE), who was a full brother to Home Grown Knls' BIG AL 2xw-1xgl (lost game to Gambler's GR.CH. VIRGIL). To any event, BLACKIE MOE was a cold dog, but produced better than any single dog I have owned to this date. And the sad part of this story is, I never bred him to any of my own bitches; he was bred only 3 times, to bitches owned by a young guy who liked BLACKIE MOE's conformation & appearance. Those bitches he was bred to weren't match dogs that I can tell, but out of those litters came (1) 4xw CH., (2) 3xw CH.'s, (1) 2xw & (5) 1xw's. To be perfectly honest with you all, I wish I could go back in time, cause I would have bred BLACKIE MOE to at least a couple bitches of my own liking; instead, he was culled. He was a son of Crews' ROCKY x Crews' JAMIE.

[FrostyPaws]

It is simply a preference of what someone wants to use at their disposal. Some people would choose to breed to a cold dog, and some people would choose not to do so. Neither person is right or wrong as we can all point to examples of dogs that were/weren't cold that produced top quality dogs throughout time.

[bulldogsrus]

Its certainly not for me, if your breeding hunting dogs then why breed to a dog that shows no signs of being interested in hunting, whatever dog or bitch I use in my program needs to show me its a hunting dog because thats what Im trying to recreate. IMHO

[R2L]

what is selecting if you neglect one of the most important aspects for these dogs. sure, some some cold dogs have produced good dogs but 90 % of the people who say this use it an excuse to justify breeding their shit or make money and only 10% % knows what he's doing and/or keeps the whole litter on his yard.

[Black Hand]

at the end of the day though, it's all personal preference. if you wanna breed cold dogs, go ahead.

[Black Hand]

it's really about what works for you and your goals. if breeding cold dogs provides a route for you to meet whatever goals you may have, go for it.

[CYJ]

Rebel Kennels took stopped dogs off Crenshaw's yard and from what I heard bred up some good ones. Some of our most popular bloodlines of today came off some famous stud dogs that were bred a lot and still being matched. To later quit under various reasons. Why it is best not to breed to any match dog till it's career is over.

One example I saw was Baker Davis's Boomerang dog. Brought back out of retirement and matched around 7 or 8 years old. Boomerang was on a young 2 1/2 year old dog owned by Mr. H. Teal. If Boomer had not got in some early serious biting. He almost did not pull it off. It was a close call right down to the wire.

So a cold male or cold female here or there is no biggie if the end results puts you in the winning. Still breeding to a cold dog should have some good valid reason behind it. You just have to know when to hold them and when to fold them. Even today no one has the monopoly on that elusive game gene in dogs. The good ones are where you find them.

[Officially Retired]

Its certainly not for me, if your breeding hunting dogs then why breed to a dog that shows no signs of being interested in hunting, whatever dog or bitch I use in my program needs to show me its a hunting dog because thats what Im trying to recreate. IMHO

It simply is not that simple :lol:

Dogs are gene pools ... and as such they have a WHOLE HOST of genetics behind them that may not be expressed in the animal itself, but can be passed on to the next generation ... this is why game dogs can produce curs ... and curs can produce game dogs :idea:

The key to breeding dogs is NOT individual excellence, it's in reproductive prepotency, and whether the dog itself has (or can be reasonably be expected to have) this trait as a producer.

If I had a choice of breeding to a Grand Champion individual (who came from an all-cur litter, where every other littermate quit) ... or I could breed to a cold dog (who came off of an all-game/winning litter, where every other littermate was a winner and/or extremely game) ... I would breed to the cold dog in that case.

Why?

Because the average dog of the line is better in the cold dog than the Grand Champion, and (in breeding) you get what the AVERAGE dog of the line is "on average," NOT what the "one" excellent/cold dog is.

People who know what they're doing (like Rebel Kennels) can make the best dogs in the world out of culls ... while people who don't know what they're doing can turn the best dogs in the world into culls ... by knowing/not knowing how to breed them :idea:

Jack

[realpitsnobull]

It simply is not that simple :lol:

Dogs are gene pools ... and as such they have a WHOLE HOST of genetics behind them that may not be expressed in the animal itself, but can be passed on to the next generation ... this is why game dogs can produce curs ... and curs can produce game dogs :idea:

The key to breeding dogs is NOT individual excellence, it's in reproductive prepotency, and whether the dog itself has (or can be reasonably be expected to have) this trait as a producer.

If I had a choice of breeding to a Grand Champion individual (who came from an all-cur litter, where every other littermate quit) ... or I could breed to a cold dog (who came off of an all-game/winning litter, where every other littermate was a winner and/or extremely game) ... I would breed to the cold dog in that case.

Why?

Because the average dog of the line is better in the cold dog than the Grand Champion, and (in breeding) you get what the AVERAGE dog of the line is "on average," NOT what the "one" excellent/cold dog is.

People who know what they're doing (like Rebel Kennels) can make the best dogs in the world out of culls ... while people who don't know what they're doing can turn the best dogs in the world into culls ... by knowing/not knowing how to breed them :idea:

Jack

U know your stuff

[EWO]

There is no right way or wrong way to breed these dogs. For every one bred this way and has success there are five more bred another way with equal or even more success. All bulldogs can produce and all bulldogs can't produce. It is the happy median or that fine line between the two. The man behind the dogs is the key contributing factor. It is not the survival of the fittest. If we had an island and dropped off a couple hundred males and a couple hundred females that would be survival of the fittest. And at the end of the experiment the dogs that are left may be the fastest bulldogs alive, as flight is a far more natural instinct than fight. These dogs were not born this way they have been bred this way. If a breeder has the insight and forethought to make things better by breeding a certain dog instead of another, well, more power to them.
There are no absolutes in the dogs. But one of the things that is is just about an absolute is that the majority of the pedigrees are filled with dogs that have done nothing, or bred for the wrong reasons. And that includes the pedigrees of the game dogs that are bred to other game dogs. The game gene is not predominant one and it can't be called upon at will. On the flip side it can pop up when most think it will not. That is where the insight and forethought comes in. If one knows the dogs and the families of the dogs in question the end result will become more consistent and in time the success percentages will increase. Game to game is safe. No doubts there. But if one of the game dogs is from a litter with all curs and his parents had pedigrees with curs and do nothings then odds are one half of the game to game breeding will not be as "game to game" as one would think. When a breeder knows the families of a cold dog and that cold dog is full of game dogs, with talent and ability then breeding to him is (odds wise) a better option than breeding to a game dog who does not have the genetic background of game dogs. EWO






To each their own. I wouldn't breed to a cold dog. While some mentioned names happen to get lucky and produced some good ones by breeding cold dogs its not the norm and for every successful breeding done with cold dogs there is many more who never produced squat. It comes down to your own ethics. If you sell pups your probably a hundred timed more likely to accept this practice. If you got the time and resources to invest in breeding to cold dogs and known curs then more power to you. I don't and was always taught you breed your game dogs to
your game dogs and you'll get your game dogs.

gamebred should mean just what it says in my opinion. No disrespect to those who condone it or practice it but its just worth my time to do as I'd rather breed dogs that earned their right to be bred. Survival of the fittest. Is what it should be about.

[R2L]

jack. Let's say i have only one, but an excellent bitch, bred her once and 6 out of 7 stopped, but she produced 1 one other excellent male. Technically speaking, these 2 excellent dogs would be useless in to a breeding program in your eyes? Unless you breed them with a dog from a more consistent game litter and higher your odds, like EWO mentions, or?

[EWO]

I believe this part as well. Selling puppies most definitely can make breeding to a cold dog look suspect to the guy on the outside looking in. Sometimes breeding to the poorer specimen is because he is easily accessible, he is bred really nice, or the breeder is kennel blind. I agree the % of people making knowledgeable breedings is slim in comparison to the people just breeding dogs. There are tons of dogs bred just because they have papers on them and that is not factoring in the dogs (good or bad) listed on those papers. Just papers.
I do not think cold dogs are always the best option but I would not rule them out completely just because they are cold dogs. EWO




what is selecting if you neglect one of the most important aspects for these dogs. sure, some some cold dogs have produced good dogs but 90 % of the people who say this use it an excuse to justify breeding their shit or make money and only 10% % knows what he's doing and/or keeps the whole litter on his yard.

[Officially Retired]

jack. Let's say i have only one, but an excellent bitch, bred her once and 6 out of 7 stopped, but she produced 1 one other excellent male. Technically speaking, these 2 excellent dogs would be useless in to a breeding program in your eyes? Unless you breed them with a dog from a more consistent game litter and higher your odds, like EWO mentions, or?

If your one, excellent bitch also came from a mostly-cur litter, and then threw a mostly-cur litter, I wouldn't waste my time with her.

However, if she came out of a great litter, but the stud you bred her to didn't, then I would think he may have been the one to foul things up. If he was also from a good litter, then maybe the "mix" didn't work. [Sometimes, for whatever reason, two great dogs just don't mix (e.g., Zebo/Honeybunch), but they can produce when bred a different way.]

If neither the stud nor the bitch came from high-percentage litters, and threw a mostly-cur litter, then I would dump them all and wash my hands thoroughly.

The only way to get into the high-percentage business is to use high-percentage animals :idea:

If you gotta plant 6 to get 1 winner, then you're in the mostly-shit "with one exception" business ...

If you have 6 game dogs, and win with one of them, then you're in the truly good bloodline business :idea:

Jack

[EWO]

I won't say it can't work. I am saying things she be done in a manner that puts the odds in ones favor. Your excellent bitch can be a starting point, even if she is not from a super-duper family of dogs. It will take more time and the end game will be further down the road but it is possible. Your good bitch to another complete package dog related to her, keep the good ones and go from there. In time, 4-6 generations later there will be solid family to draw from. That is an over simplification and tons of time/work involved. Every good family had to start somewhere and knowing that every dog does not have a pedigree with 100% success rates top to bottom. So with your excellent bitch as a starting point you can go forward. My plan would be to breed her to something that is not only a solid dog but from a family of solid dogs. If you are 1 for 7 in that litter then I would find another bitch.
The jist of successful breeding is putting the odds in ones favor. Sometimes it may be out of the norm, it may involve a cold dog, and sometimes even untested dogs. The key is to have an end goal in mind and be honest with the results and go from there. EWO



jack. Let's say i have only one, but an excellent bitch, bred her once and 6 out of 7 stopped, but she produced 1 one other excellent male. Technically speaking, these 2 excellent dogs would be useless in to a breeding program in your eyes? Unless you breed them with a dog from a more consistent game litter and higher your odds, like EWO mentions, or?

[Officially Retired]

Technically speaking, these 2 excellent dogs would be useless in to a breeding program in your eyes?

It really is as simple as this:

When you're talking match dogs, does a dog's "ability to produce" help you win a fight? No. It doesn't mean a thing. So how much "use" is a dog's sperm quality to his ability to kick ass? Answer = ZERO.

Then why can't you see, just as clearly, that a dog's "ability to win a match" has NOTHING to do with his ability to produce? How does his fighting ability make his sperm better? Answer = IT DOESN'T.

Obviously, the idea is to get good match dogs than CAN consistently produce also ... and the only way to do this, reliably, is to use good match dogs that also come from good litters ... that is the key :idea:

So why shoot yourself in the foot by using an animal with mostly-inconsistent genes? The point here is that, IF you have to cut standards, it is better to use a so-so individual from a consistent line than it is to use a great individual from a shit line.

Truly, is "a good bitch" so hard to find for you that you can't just pass one up and use another? I've seen a lot of "good bitches" in my life ... mostly that come from lousy litters ... and so, when I think about talkng about YEARS of my life (time and effort) I would happily walk right by their inconsistent/lousy overall genetics ... to select a good bitch that comes from GREAT genetics to base my yard and efforts on :idea:

Not saying you can't do well with breeding any good bitch, if you want to put the time/effort in, but you will be putting yourself at a statistical disadvantage by doing so. Personally, if a dog had so-so genes, it would have to be more than "a good bitch" for me to waste my time like that ... it would have to be ONE HELLUVA good, unbelievable, irreplaceble bitch for me to consider it.

Just my opinion ...

[R2L]

I like your theory Jack. Before i read the article "culling hard or using genetic redirection" all i ever knew was selecting the best to best.
I was just making an example, wish i had 1 excellent bitch, lol. And i never bred a dog, just had my mind on racing for now. But i would like to in the future.


Now these are all "extreme" examples: "breeding the one cold dog out of a whole game litter" because we would have an all game litter to choose from :D but i see what you're saying!

[EWO]

A young guy I met some years ago was heavy into the chickens. He had made a name for himself with the birds and then it gravitated to the dogs. He did some research, went to the active camps and bought dogs bred really well. Some grown dogs and some younger dogs. He had amassed quite the collection to start with. Every day for a week a young female dog was digging at his fence to play with his dogs. She was about 6 months old. He carried her home. Finally the neighbor told him her son had dropped him off on her and she could not keep her in a pen and did not like the idea of a chain. She offered him the dog, with two bags of feed, a 10X10 kennels, a igloo house and a set of papers. She grew up and got a chance like any other. She stopped everything close to her weight on his yard and everyone else around here too. He was on a path of rolling her to death. An older dog man told him to put her on the chain and call her weight. He did so. The first was a RIP win in :25. The second was the same in about :40. The third was about :45 and expired immediately afterwards. Her fourth was a :25 pick up as it was obvious. This bitch was bred to four really nice stud dogs, dogs that had produced previously and afterwards. She never produced the first bulldog. The reason was her breeding. If you name a bloodline she had it. A guy would have to go way out of his way to get that many famous dogs in one pedigree. She had Bullet to Redboy dogs. She had Frisco to Eli dogs. She had Molly Bee to Mims. She had Kalus Zeke way back as well. Alligator as well. She was a who's who of the dog world. She was such a good bitch i would have bred her hoping for one out of seven but at the same time knowing the odds were most definitely not in my favor. I raised two off her that did not pan out. But like most, I was hoping instead of thinking. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Well, and that great post pretty much says it all ...