Finishers

[wrongway]

What breeder/family/dog produces a consistent high percentage of true finishers? I hear talk of the gambler's Virgil dogs, machobuck and abraham's bull dogs. If someone was looking to add this trait to their family of dogs, what breeder/family/dog should they go to. Please speak from experience.

[Officially Retired]

I am in the process of writing a long, detailed response on the Avila's Ouch thread ... but I will say this ... why do you think I am basing so much on Silverback? :mrgreen:

And that is why I kept the Coca Cola line before that ... straight throat/gut dogs ;)

[CitySwamp]

That Bull stuff back when J.A was breeding it had finish, it was something you seen in a lot of his dogs. He never told folks how they were bred but he had quite a few and they could finish..

[OklahomaDan]

First off let me say that I am notr being a smartass or attempting to piss you off, just asking a sincere question. Why even consider a dog as a candidate for a breeding if it is not a solid all around bulldog that is lacking nothing?? I would personally only breed individuals that displayed outstanding qualities in every department in an attempt to produce all around athletes that would not lack anything.. I hear people talk about adding this or that to their dogs and it makes Me wonder if that particular worker needs to be looked at deeper as an individual before considering it a good candidate for any breeding. Just my thoughts and opinions.. OklahomaDan

[Officially Retired]

That Bull stuff back when J.A was breeding it had finish, it was something you seen in a lot of his dogs. He never told folks how they were bred but he had quite a few and they could finish..

Kingfish told me that is the main trait he bred for over all else, which is primarily why he focused on Art blood, but which is also why he bought and incorporated Zukill.




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First off let me say that I am notr being a smartass or attempting to piss you off, just asking a sincere question. Why even consider a dog as a candidate for a breeding if it is not a solid all around bulldog that is lacking nothing?? I would personally only breed individuals that displayed outstanding qualities in every department in an attempt to produce all around athletes that would not lack anything.. I hear people talk about adding this or that to their dogs and it makes Me wonder if that particular worker needs to be looked at deeper as an individual before considering it a good candidate for any breeding. Just my thoughts and opinions.. OklahomaDan

Dan, I respect your opinion and judgment, and if you're actually breeding dogs that truly are outstanding at everything, then hats-off to you. If more people adhered to this, namely only bred dogs that were outstanding in EVERYTHING, it would certainly reduce the number of breedings being done today :lol:

The only trouble I have with this provisio is that the word "outstanding" is open to interpretation. What is "outstanding" to one man may only be so-so to another man. Further, to sincerely expect every dog to be absolutely outstanding in every department, including finish, is in my opinion unrealistic. For example, I have personally bred dozens of dogs that were fully-capable of beating, becoming, and/or producing Champions ... in the very fastest of fast lanes ... and yet they were not outstanding at absolutely everything. Moreover, out of all the topshelf dogs I have bred, I have only had 3 dogs in my life that were what I considered to be TRUE FINISHERS, which to me means dogS that could "X" you dead as fried chicken with the 1st or 2nd throat hold they put on you. A true finisher IMO, when s/he gets in there, it is deep, they stay there, they root, and they cut-off all systems (air & blood) to your head ... to where the opponent basically just deflates and shits itself within minutes of the hold. True finish is a rare as hell trait!

Now mind you, I have bred hundreds of dogs in 23 years that would "go to the throat"; yet I have had only 3 dogs that have been able to take your life clean like this with the first (or at most second) hold they got. So when I say the word "finisher," I mean a finisher, not a dog that will "try" to finish, as I have had no telling how many dogs that will "go in the throat." The truth is, most dogs that "go to the throat" will lose the hold, or they'll switch to something else, or they will not have enough of the throat in their mouth, etc. ... or, even if they will finish, they can only get there after they've broken the dog down, waited until the dog is beaten and tired, and is already pretty much stretched out, so it's a given.

NONE of these other dogs is what I personally would call a True Finisher, even though ALL of them will "go to the throat," and IMO what many people "call" finishers are not.

A true finisher, to me, is a dog that (say) is on your head and then--quick as a flash--downs the opponent while fresh and just goes right in there, up under the jaw, deep in that throat ... or, if the opponent is still standing, comes from the side, chewing his way in, and methodically roots with purpose, up under that jaw, until that other dog just deflates before your eyes ... and goes to shittin' itself ... and will either be saved by its owner or die right there. And I just don't think most dogs that anyone breeds are truly outstanding finishers like that.

So I am not really sure that many dogs in the history of the game could actually fit the criteria of being "outstanding at everything": gameness, ability, intelligence, athleticism, conformation, rugged durability, tireless stamina, mouth, finish, etc. The truth is, virtually every dog that has ever been shown has some weakness (or at least some trait that is only so-so), which means (depending upon how extreme we interpret your credo) we won't have many dogs to breed to (if any at all!), if we really do hold ourselves to the standard that "no dog should get bred unless it is outstanding at everything."

In the end, Dan, I am inclined to believe that being "outstanding at everything" is a very rare event, and while it may be the ideal goal in everyone's breeding efforts, yours and mine, at the end of the day most dogs are not going to live up to this ideal in some form or fashion. This doesn't mean they aren't damned good dogs, fully capable of winning in top competition, but it's like expecting every single boxer who fights to be Sugar Ray Robinson ... aces at everything ... it is simply a very, very rare phenomenon ... and even when you find fighters of this caliber, they still won't produce aces like themselves much, if at all, either.

Aces are simply rare, and they disappear as quickly as they pop up, and the funniest thing of all is ... most aces aren't even created by other aces ... but rather they're created by mixing dogs of different strengths/weaknesses together in the right way :mrgreen:

Cheers,

Jack


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[wrongway]

GREAT POST JACK!!! Thanks for that! We have the same opinion on what a true finisher is. That's why I will try to add rosebud and ice storm to my program.

[Officially Retired]

GREAT POST JACK!!! Thanks for that! We have the same opinion on what a true finisher is. That's why I will try to add rosebud and ice storm to my program.

???

I don't know if you're trying to be funny, or if you're repeating what you heard, but those dogs (while very well bred, and I have heard are very honest dogs) do not have the true finishing trait mentioned here on this thread ... although they do have many other excellent and important traits.

Jack

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[REDRUM]

???

I don't know if you're trying to be funny, or if you're repeating what you heard, but those dogs (while very well bred, and I have heard are very honest dogs) do not have the true finishing trait mentioned here on this thread ... although they do have many other excellent and important traits.

Jack

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I'm curious to know how you have come to this conclusion? In all fairness I would hope that this assumtion is not being made based on the one dog that has been shown.

I am only speaking in regards to the stud dog that I own.

[OklahomaDan]

Yes sir, very true, I agree with you, opinions vary, as far as working observations go. What I may think is outstanding, may not bust a grape in Welch's back yard, with a pair of signatured Tiger Woods spiked golf shoes on all fours for you or someone else. And honestly, all that matters is that any breeder always breeds with the thought or attempt of bettering his family of workers and the fact that we each our happy and confident in what we feed.. Great reply...all the best.

[Officially Retired]

I'm curious to know how you have come to this conclusion? In all fairness I would hope that this assumtion is not being made based on the one dog that has been shown.
I am only speaking in regards to the stud dog that I own.

Well, I am going off of what little I remember about our conversation about his performance (which you said was excellent), but I sure don't remember any mention of you saying he was a straight finisher. That is something I am pretty sure I would have remembered. The same goes with my recollections of the performances of Rosebud and his owner: he's a good, game dog--just not a true finisher.

Although there is a remote chance of your dog being a brutal finisher, because of Stormbringer, again that chance would be very remote. For out of all the pups Stormbringer ever threw, only 2 of them were finishers ... and Cherry Cola (your stud's mother) wasn't one of them. And while maybe this trait skipped a generation in your dog's pedigree, the fact is there is no dog in Rosebud's 6-gen ped that was a true finisher like I described. So, as their breeder, and as the owner/breeder of virtually every dog in their pedigrees, I would be curious to know if my recollection is bad and would welcome any honest correction.

Are you saying Ice Storm is a stone cold finisher?

[REDRUM]

Ice is honestly a brutal finisher. Perhaps not at the same level that you speak of in Silverback but I can guarntee you he doesn't play around. If there is one thing I know about Ice is he's either ruin you kill you or die trying. I think it would be fair to say that you'd be rather proud of Ice if you could only see him perform. He has also produced one hell of a bitch in Nazi's littermate sister Ms.Red who I belive was the best dog in that litter. Obviously Nazi was a super game animal but his abilities weren't the best. As you mentioned to me before he does not seem to display the traits of a true Poncho/Coki dog but in the end he had what it took to win. Ms.Red on the other hand does posses a great deal of finish (again not first or second hold that you mentioned) ability along with speed, smarts and style. Although I will not go into great detail over the web, she just recently and violently destroyed a double El Negro bitch in :15 leaving everyone there very impressed and with a new found respect for my "crappy Poncho dogs"

Again I will not say that Ice and his offsping are one hold killers but I promise you they are looking to and definitely will close the deal in very quick fashion. In the end and most importantly, I am very satisfied with what I've got in Icestorm. He is in my eyes a Flagship animal. :)

[Officially Retired]

Ice is honestly a brutal finisher. Perhaps not at the same level that you speak of in Silverback but I can guarntee you he doesn't play around. If there is one thing I know about Ice is he's either ruin you kill you or die trying. I think it would be fair to say that you'd be rather proud of Ice if you could only see him perform.

I have zero doubts that Ice Storm is a superb dog, as he is honestly one of my favorite-bred dogs out there, I just was questioning whether he was a true finisher or not, I was NOT questioning his quality! For example, Ch Mr. Serious was a from my line was a game and brutal dog. He had a very hard mouth and could break your bones, was durable and powerful as a rhino, but he was not looking for "kill spots" ... just to break you down and render you into a pile. Was he a great dog? YES! Was he a stone-cold finisher? No. Same thing win Icon and your dogs sire U-Nhan-Rha. Were they terrific dogs? YES! Were they stone-cold finishers? No.

I am sure I would be proud as hell of Ice Storm, I just didn't think he was a finisher like that, as again I have only had 3 such dogs in my entire breeding career. Yet finish isn't everything, and I have had DOZENS of dogs I am absolutely proud of.





He has also produced one hell of a bitch in Nazi's littermate sister Ms.Red who I belive was the best dog in that litter. Obviously Nazi was a super game animal but his abilities weren't the best. As you mentioned to me before he does not seem to display the traits of a true Poncho/Coki dog but in the end he had what it took to win.

It's like his great-uncle Pretty Boy ... maybe not an ace, but game enough to win over the best on heart ... and you have to take your hat off to that.

Further, I am well aware of the variance in ability between dogs, as (again) in the same fashion Pretty Boy's sister was one of the most talented head dogs you could imagine ... where as he was just average.





Ms.Red on the other hand does posses a great deal of finish (again not first or second hold that you mentioned) ability along with speed, smarts and style. Although I will not go into great detail over the web, she just recently and violently destroyed this double El Negro bitch here in :15 ALLIGATOR CLUB'S ELLIE (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=178557) leaving everyone there very impressed and with a new found respect for my "crappy Poncho dogs"


LOL, that sounds pretty quick and decisive to me :mrgreen:

And I do take great delight in when people get a rude awakening as to the quality of these dogs, which is where the handle SmileWiper came from :lol:

Congrats on her!






Again I will not say that Ice and his offsping are one hold killers but I promise you they are looking to and definitely will close the deal in very quick fashion. In the end and most importantly, I am very satisfied with what I've got in Icestorm. He's is in my eyes a Flagship animal. :)

I don't blame you, and I agree he is a flagship animal, just like he's bred to be.

U-Nhan-Rha was a total package animal, rating strong in all categories. Uey was not an ace, but he was a rock-solid dog (a "Marvin Hagler"), with no weaknesses, and one of the highest-percentage producers I've ever had. And Cherry, while she might not have been much as an individual, her sister Little Red Sonja was one of the other one-hold finishers I was talking about, and her other sister Cherry Coke was a fantastic, A-level bitch ... and they're out of the baddest dog I ever had in Stormbringer, bred to his half-sister who (though average) was one of the gamest and most intense bitches I ever had, so your dog really is bred about as strong as I can breed dogs.

So please don't think I was trying to diminish, I was trying to distinguish between a TRUE finisher and a dog that "would finish" ...

It's like the difference in boxing between a true KO Artist ... and a boxer "who can get a KO" ... the KO Artist is powerful enough to completely KNOCK OUT a perfectly healthy, unhurt boxer at any time with ONE shot ... [b]>BAM< ... he's down and out COLD ... while a guy "who can get a KO" may eventually knock his opponent out, and he may keep a brutal pace, but the KO will only come after an accumulation of punches.

Truly heavy-handed one-punch KO Artists are pretty rare in comparison to guys "who can get KOs" ... but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of fantastic, all-around GREAT fighters, who may not be KO Artists, but who are dangerous, superb fighters in their own way (like Ali!).

Jack


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[REDRUM]

Thanks for that response Jack. Now I have a better understaning of what you were commenting on earlier. Glad we could get it out there. I appreciate it.

[wrongway]

I was not intending for my post to be funny. The owners of both dogs told me what their stud dogs are producing. I will hopefully be breeding to one of them if not both in the near future! I had a son of uey/ms Bobbi that would hit the throat as soon as he felt in control but he didn't have the mouth or power to close one.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for that response Jack. Now I have a better understaning of what you were commenting on earlier. Glad we could get it out there. I appreciate it.

Sure thing :)




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I was not intending for my post to be funny. The owners of both dogs told me what their stud dogs are producing. I will hopefully be breeding to one of them if not both in the near future! I had a son of uey/ms Bobbi that would hit the throat as soon as he felt in control but he didn't have the mouth or power to close one.

That is exactly my point, if you re-read my original post carefully: what one man "calls" a finisher, another man might not.

Like I said, I have had/bred dozens of dogs that "would finish" after awhile ... or that "would try to" finish but might not have the ability ... but I have only had 3 dogs that I would call TRUE finishers.

What "is" or "isn't" a finisher, then, I suppose ultimately depends on how loose, or how strict, a dogman's criteria is ...

Jack


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[H.B.K.]

I've seen a lot of different lines go and the rascal line of dogs especially through pedro bring a lot of finish. I run the art/kingfish line of dogs jack and they will finish u but that is deff not there strongest talent. I do know and believe that the art/kingfish x jeep/ honeybuch / rascal cross is devastaing and r complete hounds with major finish. I also see a lot finish in the tramp dogs.

[Officially Retired]

I've seen a lot of different lines go and the rascal line of dogs especially through pedro bring a lot of finish. I run the art/kingfish line of dogs jack and they will finish u but that is deff not there strongest talent. I do know and believe that the art/kingfish x jeep/ honeybuch / rascal cross is devastaing and r complete hounds with major finish. I also see a lot finish in the tramp dogs.


I have heard that too about the Rascal dogs.

I am not exactly sure how Kingfish Kid mixed his Art dogs, but I think finish was the #1 trait he sought, if I remember correctly.

Jack

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[YigYang]

In my own opinion i beleive the the best dog is an all around dog no doubt. That saying it jack stated that different lines throw differnt traits and performcance yes and that " Next comes (4) the subject of what bloodlines to use. This really is a personal consideration, but either way (if you want to succeed) you need to go with a high-percentage bloodline. Doesn’t necessarily have to be a high-percentage “game” bloodline, but the dogs should definitely win more than they lose, when the money’s on the line. The rest is a matter of personal style.

Do you like wide-open barnstormers, or methodical, slick dismantlers? If you like barnstormers, the Eli/Nigerino type dogs would be a consideration. Many Red Boy/Jocko dogs are like this, and many Boyles-bred dogs are too. The bonus of these kinds of dogs is their style makes them win early – which means you can show them more often, because they don’t take as long to win and (hence) don’t take as much abuse. Their liability, though, is some tend not to be as game ... if they are in there with a good one and are forced to go the long haul ... and thus you will get more curs out of them. Many people don’t mind going through a bunch of curs to get their ace, because they know he will be a money-maker …


However, if you like dogs that tend to be distance athletes, who save themselves for later and come on strong in the end to pull out the win, then I would recommend the Hollingsworth and CH Butkus crosses as well as the CH Bullshit/White dogs. Pure Red Boy dogs tend to be like this also, but they also tend to be very stupid. The bonus of distance athletes is that, as a line, they tend to be game more consistently than other lines, which means you don’t have to cull as many animals. The liability of these kinds of dog is they tend to take longer to win (and thus more abuse), which means they don’t win as many shows, per dog, as more barnstormy dogs do (on the average) ... but in the trenches they are more dependable.
" - pitbull bible Cali Jack

[RFK]

I can say for a fact that I got one that finishes she goes in the throat from go and Already bagged two that's why I've chosen to breed around her to try to get more of those type of workers

[Choctaw]

IMHO, I think the Busenbark line of dogs, produces the best finishing dogs out there. I've seen alot of different bloodlines out there, from alot of different breeders. But those Busenbark dogs, have one thing on their mind, and that's to get you out of there ASAP. I think Virgil dogs, are a close second, but Busenbark dogs as awhole, IMHO, produce consistent punishing, and finishing type dogs!

[Bojacc357]

IMHO, I think the Busenbark line of dogs, produces the best finishing dogs out there. I've seen alot of different bloodlines out there, from alot of different breeders. But those Busenbark dogs, have one thing on their mind, and that's to get you out of there ASAP. I think Virgil dogs, are a close second, but Busenbark dogs as awhole, IMHO, produce consistent punishing, and finishing type dogs!


Do you have any?

[Choctaw]

IMHO, I think the Busenbark line of dogs, produces the best finishing dogs out there. I've seen alot of different bloodlines out there, from alot of different breeders. But those Busenbark dogs, have one thing on their mind, and that's to get you out of there ASAP. I think Virgil dogs, are a close second, but Busenbark dogs as awhole, IMHO, produce consistent punishing, and finishing type dogs!


Do you have any?

No doubt. Wouldn't feed much else.

[Dre21]

Awesome outlook/perspectives. I read all 3 pages. Good stuff!!

[trajan337]

You don't have as any breeders breeding for the traits as they did back in the days

[TownBizz]

However, if you like dogs that tend to be distance athletes, who save themselves for later and come on strong in the end to pull out the win, then I would recommend the Hollingsworth and CH Butkus crosses as well as the CH Bullshit/White dogs.
" - pitbull bible Cali Jack

Say for instance...if you have a dog with the exact blend mentioned above ( Hollingsworths / White Blood )... what would you add for more power and finish? Just wanna hear some opinions!

[CitySwamp]

However, if you like dogs that tend to be distance athletes, who save themselves for later and come on strong in the end to pull out the win, then I would recommend the Hollingsworth and CH Butkus crosses as well as the CH Bullshit/White dogs.
" - pitbull bible Cali Jack

Say for instance...if you have a dog with the exact blend mentioned above ( Hollingsworths / White Blood )... what would you add for more power and finish? Just wanna hear some opinions!


Nobody breeds for finish these days the game has evolved a lot.. To add more power and roughness you could try the Redboy/Jocko, that seems to blend well..

[wildchild]

Vise Grips Silverback :mrgreen:

wildchild

[100KOMBINE]

I've seen a lot of different lines go and the rascal line of dogs especially through pedro bring a lot of finish. I run the art/kingfish line of dogs jack and they will finish u but that is deff not there strongest talent. I do know and believe that the art/kingfish x jeep/ honeybuch / rascal cross is devastaing and r complete hounds with major finish. I also see a lot finish in the tramp dogs.

THE RASCAL HOUNDS PRODUCE A HELL OF A LOT OF " TRUE FINISHERS " THRU BIG CASEY AN CH.BIG, BUT A LOT OF THESE HOUNDS THAT R PURE IN THIS LINE THATS ALL THEY WANNA DO, THEY DONT HAVE ANY TYPE OF STYLE AN THIER GAMENESS IS QUESTIONABLE..!!! THEY OUTCROSSE GREAT WITH ANY BLOODLINE, ADDING THAT PUNCH THAT MOST LINES ARE LACKING, I RUN THIS LINE A LOT AND ITS BEEN WORKING GOOD WHEN I CROSS IT WITH OTHER LINES......

[Choctaw]

No doubt Rascal dogs, can finish!

[100KOMBINE]

However, if you like dogs that tend to be distance athletes, who save themselves for later and come on strong in the end to pull out the win, then I would recommend the Hollingsworth and CH Butkus crosses as well as the CH Bullshit/White dogs.
" - pitbull bible Cali Jack

Say for instance...if you have a dog with the exact blend mentioned above ( Hollingsworths / White Blood )... what would you add for more power and finish? Just wanna hear some opinions!

RASCAL OR GATOR WITHOUT A DOUBT.....!!!!

[StoneCity]

My concept of what a finisher is has to do with the will of the dog to finish the race weather he is ahead or behind. Is that moment when the dog digs deep and decides this ends now. There are hard biting dogs with the capacity to finish a race with one hold True but that does not qualify him to be called a finisher. I have seen many hard biting dogs that when they get outsmart and frustrated they simply fade away and don't have the WILL to finish it even when they have the CAPACITY to finish.

It is very very rare to see a dog finish the race with one hold and even two holds. If I was to calculate the percentage of dogs that I have seen in the last 23 years finishing the race with just one or two holds, it will be less than 1%. Actually, I have seen more dogs that impose their will to win than dogs finishing a race with 1 or 2 holds.

And then, How many times does a dog needs to do this to be consider a finisher? 1, 2 all the time?
If he does it one time and never again, Is he a finisher?

In the other hand, I have seen average biting dogs that were either even, behind or ahead at a certain point of the race that impose their will and finish the race quickly weather that is at 10 minutes, 1 hour or 3 hours.

If in your lifetime you ever found a dog that can finish a race with one or two holds consistently, try hard to get it.....That's an ACE....

[Officially Retired]

My concept of what a finisher is has to do with the will of the dog to finish the race weather he is ahead or behind. Is that moment when the dog digs deep and decides this ends now. There are hard biting dogs with the capacity to finish a race with one hold True but that does not qualify him to be called a finisher. I have seen many hard biting dogs that when they get outsmart and frustrated they simply fade away and don't have the WILL to finish it even when they have the CAPACITY to finish.

First of all, thank you for joining and welcome aboard, it is very nice to have you here.

Regarding what you describe as a finisher, I understand what you're saying, and I agree dogs who do not fade away and continuously try to win display the key trait of a truly good dog. However, I myself would call a dog like you described a "game" finisher, with gameness being the will to win no matter what ... while another dog who "can" finish ... but who fades away ... would be just a dangerous cur to my way of thinking. (Not saying my way of thinking is right, this is just how I view things.)

I also don't think mouth and finish are the same. For example, I have seen devastating dogs that would break legs and crush shoulders, these dogs could cripple a dog if they got on him ... but yet they would not go to kill spots (throat/kidneys/gut). And (on the other side) I have seen average-mouth dogs go for nothing but deep holds in the throat, or in the kidneys, that I would say are looking to finish their opponent, not just to brawl him.





It is very very rare to see a dog finish the race with one hold and even two holds. If I was to calculate the percentage of dogs that I have seen in the last 23 years finishing the race with just one or two holds, it will be less than 1%. Actually, I have seen more dogs that impose their will to win than dogs finishing a race with 1 or 2 holds.

I agree with you. Of all the dogs I have ever owned in my life during the same amount of years, I have only had 3 who could do this ever, which would be less than 1%.





And then, How many times does a dog needs to do this to be consider a finisher? 1, 2 all the time?
If he does it one time and never again, Is he a finisher?


That is an extremely important distinction you just made. If a dog does it "once," but never again, then I would say he "finished" one, but he never replicated the effort. However, if every single time that dog gets put in there he is looking for that spot, then his intent is to finish ... which makes him a finisher at heart to me ... but how often he is able to get there determines his TALENT at accomplishing his goal. If he has no talent, and can't get his spots, then he may never get there when facing more talented dogs who can keep him out and break him down. However, if he is supremely talented at getting to his spots, then at some point he will get there and immediately try to close the deal.





If in your lifetime you ever found a dog that can finish a race with one or two holds consistently, try hard to get it.....That's an ACE....

I agree with you 100%.

Jack


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[cmkennels]

I have owned several bulldogs that have all around skills but never finished a hog. I have personally seen a true finisher and she did it in 7 minutes. She was scatter bred so I am not sure what blood the finishing came from.

[Bojacc357]

Norris' Coaltrain smart throat hunter. Start at head and find throat, no coming out. Love my bitch.

[StoneCity]

Jack,

First of all, Thanks for creating the Forum....It was about time we have a serious forum to discuss serious topics about our dogs.

Congratulations you are doing a good job.

I guess we both share valid points using different approach to the same situation. We had 2 examples of what you are describing;

This is for historical purposes only!!!

Gr Ch Yellow Buck - His second time out at release your dogs went to the back and broke a main line and at 7 min it was over right then and there in the square. Only one hold.

Ch. Jesse James Rodz - At release your dogs they met in the middle trying to get position at 8 minutes Jesse James went underneath got a hold of chest push up one hold and at 18 min it was over.

Now, Did they ever did it again? No. This is very difficult almost impossible to accomplish.
Did I consider them to be finishers? Yes, but not because of those 2 incidents but because in other situations when in a long race with a real tough opponent at one point they just stand up and finish the race with one final decisive hold.

Would I love to have a dog that can finish races with one hold? Of course, I will brake my piggy bank to get it.

Would I probably end up with a dangerous cur like you say? Most likely.

So Choose Wisely........

[Officially Retired]

Jack,
First of all, Thanks for creating the Forum....It was about time we have a serious forum to discuss serious topics about our dogs.
Congratulations you are doing a good job.


You're welcome, and thank you too for the participation and perspective.



Jack,
I guess we both share valid points using different approach to the same situation. We had 2 examples of what you are describing;
This is for historical purposes only!!!


Indeed!



Jack,
Gr Ch Yellow Buck - His second time out at release your dogs went to the back and broke a main line and at 7 min it was over right then and there in the square. Only one hold.
Ch. Jesse James Rodz - At release your dogs they met in the middle trying to get position at 8 minutes Jesse James went underneath got a hold of chest push up one hold and at 18 min it was over.
Now, Did they ever did it again? No. This is very difficult almost impossible to accomplish.
Did I consider them to be finishers? Yes, but not because of those 2 incidents but because in other situations when in a long race with a real tough opponent at one point they just stand up and finish the race with one final decisive hold.



Thank you for sharing your experiences with two great dogs who possessed this trait. This illustrates the point that not every finisher (even at the highest level) will be able to "finish early" (or even at all) because the other factior in the equation is the quality of opposition. Just as a KO artist in boxing can easily smoke lesser foes, when he moves up in class he will not be able to hit truly skilled fighters as often (or as cleanly) as he can hit lesser men. And so it is in dogs.

Even a stone cold finisher who blows through lesser foes, if he gets on another great dog, is simply not going to be able to have his way like he did with something not at his level. And here is where the other important aspect (what I call extreme gameness and what you call true finish) comes into play, which is the will to keep after it as long as they have to. The fact that both of your great dogs were extended the distance, and finally finished when they had the opportunity, doesn't mean they weren't finishers, far from it. It only means that their opponents were very high-caliber dogs also, that were just too good to be blown through. (Even Tornado and Melonhead had to go 2 hours when they met the right dogs.) So, very good point, even a brutal finisher is going to have to go the distance if he meets something else good enough.




Jack,
Would I love to have a dog that can finish races with one hold? Of course, I will brake my piggy bank to get it.
Would I probably end up with a dangerous cur like you say? Most likely.
So Choose Wisely........

Agreed!

Finish is a trait I am very much hoping to cultivate, but I would never choose this trait "instead" of World Class Staying Power ... I am merely trying to add this trait of consistent finish to the staying power my dogs are known for.

Cheers,

Jack

.

[wrongway]

When I speak of finish I'm speaking about those dogs with the intent to kill. Going to the throat/kidney/gut. Some dogs just beat you up and bang it out, some style on you, but then there's the ones that just want to kill you and get to the kill spots as soon as the opportunity present itself. This is the trait I'm talking about.

[TFX]

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggiest idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.

[Bojacc357]

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggiest idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.

I have to agree and when I saw it. It wasn't till it was over and I played it back that I realize how smooth it was. Deliberate is a good description. Some may not be the fast or hardest mouthed but know where they want to be and will pick you apart getting there. Also most times as said before its not that many holds and once they get there. It's so deep and sincere a jackhammer ain getting them out.

[Officially Retired]

Very good assessment and description of a finisher.

I agree, it is no accident when they get there, and I likewise agree it is a good trait to strive for.

The dogs I have considered to be true finishers, once they hit that spot, it was a wrap ... like the other dog was an "air raft" that just got deflated.

Jack

[SwampDweller]

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggiest idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.

J. Damager's CH. PANDI 4xw; finished 3 of her 4 opponents, and never went pass the :37min mark. A true chest-eating maniac!

[abc]

A real finisher usually is very deliberate about it. They position themselves in such a way as to lay out their oppoent just right, or come underneath them just right when it is time. You can watch them set it up. I have seen plenty try to set it up and then not have the bite or drive to make it happen. I have seen others who know how to get ahead, and then when it is time they just do not have the foggies idea what to do, other than shake or root a little bit perhaps, typically in flurries. The real finisher has spent every minute of the show waiting for the two spots to open up. It is rare, but a fantastic trait to strive for.
Ace Gr Ch Homer Balboa is as discribed above by TFX he will set you up for the Finish and he's throwing Finishers as well. Finishing his First of the 4 at 18 months the rest is History....

[S_B]

I saw this subject posted elsewhere, searched it here and found this gem of a thread.

Funny how Jack's description of a finisher back peddles by the end of the thread. lol What he was describing initially was a killer imo.

It is my belief that finish is the ultimate staying power (gameness), I'm not saying dogs without it can't be game or even dead game. But finish to me is the icing on the cake. This trait isn't diminished by the fact that they can't get to their spot to accomplish it, it is the fact that their will is to do it whenever the opportunity becomes available.

[homegrownheard]

What breeder/family/dog produces a consistent high percentage of true finishers? I hear talk of the gambler's Virgil dogs, machobuck and abraham's bull dogs. If someone was looking to add this trait to their family of dogs, what breeder/family/dog should they go to. Please speak from experience.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=62888
Hit the nail on the head with this one.

[ROCK-MACHINE]

What breeder/family/dog produces a consistent high percentage of true finishers? I hear talk of the gambler's Virgil dogs, machobuck and abraham's bull dogs. If someone was looking to add this trait to their family of dogs, what breeder/family/dog should they go to. Please speak from experience.

Gr Ch Norrod's Iron Koko was a stone cold finisher in the [ ] and what's more was a notorious cannibal who would kill and eat any dog male or female that was unfortunate enough to get lose and enter her chain space. Due to her nature she was not bred a lot but dogs down from her knew how to finish.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=15196
https://i.imgur.com/MvSsrzA.jpg

[apeman]

bump up