Mixing other breeds?

[Jon P. Lebron]

As I was reading my newly purchased copy of Dogs of Velvet and Steal, I read something that amazed me and I quote,

"There are Mike Tyson types also; dogs like the old Zebo dog or the Art dog that would put serious wounds on a dog ( or the infamous Tornado dog depicted without showing serious harm in the short snippet, in Pick - A - Winna video). They are as rare with competing dogs as they are with competing boxers. Actually, you have to know your bloodlines. Many of those really hard biting bloodlines go back to blending in an outside breed, which to make a very long genetics story short, breeds in a strong prey drive" end of quote

This is contradictory to what I have always heard and read about breeding Pitbulls to other breeds of dogs. I am not a breeder and my knowledge is very poor compared to many of the people in this forum, but I have always heard and read that when you cross Pitbulls with other breeds you end up losing ability and most of all gameness.

So my question is, is this true, have many of the hard biting bloodlines been crossed with other breeds?

Just wanted to know your opinions on this comment buy the author.

Jon

[OGDOGG]

Don't believe in what you read. It's for entertainment purposes only:lol:

[TFX]

I think Bob Stevens lost his mind for a moment when he wrote that. That must be another tactic to elevate the Morochito dog to immortality.:rolleyes: Certainly "blending in outside breeds" is NOT a preferred method of producing superior pit dogs by anybody but the rankest, most unschooled novices, who do not even deserve to be called a breeder.

With that said, there may be the occasional freak who had 1/8th of something else in the pedigree and was good in spite of it, and not because of it.

[Jon P. Lebron]

.I just thought it was weird, because theirs many Colby dogs Dibo dogs, ya know old time dogs that where devastating hard biters who destryed their opposition. I personaly know of a pit dog back in P.R. where I lived at that was named Digger for the reason that he would dig for rocks once he found one he would grab it pull it out of the ground and would chew on it untill it broke, his teeth where flat and almost gone because of this. Now he was game he could take biting and keep on going, actually this is what would mainly happen when he was showed he would take everything the other dog would trow at him as just kept trying to get his favorite hold and once he got it, it was over, this dog could really bite, yet he was only around 40 lbs. The dogs that Stevens is talking about in his bpok are bandog type dogs that are crosses of pits with some kind of Mastiff mainly Napolitan Mastiff

[EWO]

Not trying to interpret or defend the writing but I think it was not meant to say mixing bulldogs to other breeds make harder biting game dogs. I think it was suppose to say mixing bulldogs to other lines makes those lines harder biting dogs. Like hog hunting. A completely game, hard mouth 33lb pit dog can only do so much with a 250lb. boar. I am not saying it can't be done or hasn't been done but the lack of size can be a disadvantage to the dog. The cross he mentioned was to add the bulldog abilities to the larger dogs so the larger dogs (mastiffs, Johnson bred AB's, ) would have the bulldog traits. The desire to stay, the ability to hang on, and the weight to make it all work on something that weighs four or five times as much. That is the way I took it. EWO

[EWO]

There is a weight puller near here that uses blue dogs and staffordshires. They are nicely built dogs. They compete hard. Walking the yard one day with him I noticed a dog that did not fit the bill of all his other dogs. I asked about him. He was about a 7/8ths redboy dog whose brothers had won matches and produced winners. His sire was a ROM male. When he saw a touch of laziness or lack of fire he was looking for in those weight pullers he would add this redboy dog to his mix. That set of puppies would then be brought back into the mix down the road. So looking at his pedigrees they were chock full of champion weight pullers but every third or fourth generation would have a "game-bred" ( and I hate the term game bred but I could not think of a better one as I type) pit type dog mixed in. This particular redboy dog was throwing a lot of intensity and work ethic into the dogs as they began to fade. This is what I think Mr. Stevens was trying to say, not using mastiffs to better the bulldogs, but the other way around. EWO

[Jon P. Lebron]

I no what you mean EWO, but yes what the author is speaking about is mixing other breeds, he uses the word (breed) not bloodlines or strain, also on that same chapter he says and I quote,

"When a Napolitan Mastiff/Pit bull cross is matched with a pure pit, the cross bred dog can often bite down the pure pit down. Then he will (tend to) just stand over his "prey" uninterested in continuing. This is true. And it is behind the excessively hard biting (pure bred on paper) match dogs that when rolled to see what they have bite very hard, only to quit standing up when not even bit."

One more thing he says is of a friend of his who has bred his own type of catch dog a Pitbull/Grate Dane/Napolitan Mastiff blend, which he claims to be as game as a Pit bull but having more endurance and I quote,

"Then he bred pit for many generations, in and out of Fankie and Baron until he had catch fogs that look identical to pure pit, have the gameness of pure pit, but way beyond in endurance and power and effective focus. His dogs have a very tough coat and a harder bite than the average pit. They are specialists. Catch is their game and you can't find any better. Pit Bull purists scoff. Go ahead. For me this Riddle breeding is one super surreal dog and a sui generis among Bulldogs"

This is in the revised DVS book which contains a second book titled Epilogue, it's interesting that he says that this Neo/Pit crosses are not game but his friends dogs are as game as a pure Pit bull.

In all this is a good book, I just find this statements ti be strange.

[EWO]

"When a Napolitan Mastiff/Pit bull cross is matched with a pure pit, the cross bred dog can often bite down the pure pit down. Then he will (tend to) just stand over his "prey" uninterested in continuing. This is true. And it is behind the excessively hard biting (pure bred on paper) match dogs that when rolled to see what they have bite very hard, only to quit standing up when not even bit."

Yeah, I am not sure where he is going with this quote. It has been a number of years since I actually read the book. I will tend to agree with this statement for one reason, odds are if that cross is made it will be hard to find a pure bred pit that will weigh 100lbs or more. And a 100lb or better dog biting down on a smaller dog will always lead to the smaller dog being bit down. The odds of the mix dog staying there to finish is slim to none as well. And dogs with absolute freak mouth who are indeed game are few and far between.
And as much as I admire catch dogs the comparison of the two is unfair to both as both jobs are miles apart. The initial catch is intense and takes a dog with heart and desire and ability to stay there and I am a great fan. If the hog inflicts pain it is in quick swipes and cuts, and the catch dog is usually fitted with a collar. The catch does not last for an hour or two or even three. So as a pit bull guy I would never scoff at the accomplishments of a catch dog and I do not doubt these crossed dogs performed very well as catch dogs. But in the grand scheme of things it is like comparing apples to oranges.
Again, I am not sure where he was going by just reading one quote. But for me, I give credit where credit is due and if that particular mix produced A-1 catch dogs I have no doubts. If he means these crossed dogs would serve just as well in either area of performance I would have to disagree wholeheartedly. EWO

[CRISIS]

mastiff pitbull cross going into a pitbulll???? i call bullshit......

dont forget ...WEIGHTS are matched....pound for pound there IS NO SUPERIOR COMBAT DOG THAN THE APBT!! ......fact...... my green ass can tell you that! lol

[CRISIS]

thats was not a shot @ you EWO...i was just ranting lol

[tasoschatz]

I know some very nice dogs here in Greece, neo/pit bandogs luchero lines that are very good in guarding and also with kids, much better than other dominant pure breeds. But I would like an opinion, in the pit/neo/dane mix which one of the two, neo and dane, adds to endurance? I just can not see it.

[EWO]

They don't. They add size and the guardian type instincts. The appearance does not hurt them either. If the crack head is scoping out the neighborhood and he has two houses to choose from, with one having no signs of a pet and the other a 125lb neo/pit mix roaming the front yard. That dog is about 99% of all the home security anyone would ever need. EWO

[EWO]

No shot received. That is why scales are used. If any big dog will stay and bite for an extended amount of time he has a decisive advantage over the smaller dog. If it is a mixed dog the odds of him staying are slim to none. What I was saying was that that cross would make really big dogs and big dogs that will stay for a while has a lot of advantage on his smaller counterpart. These are bulldogs not machines. And their history and persona and all the accolades, including the myths, so if that mix dog weighed over a hundred pounds and the average pit dog is in the forties, if that mix dog decided to stay for awhile it would be troubles for the smaller dog. Now do I think the mix dog would stay that long, I doubt it.





thats was not a shot @ you EWO...i was just ranting lol

[OGDOGG]

I've known guys who think like Bob Stevens(idiots) always talking but has nothing to show for. They're usually the ones that have more than one breed on their yard. So it's not hard to figure them out.

[EWO]

What is the deal with having multiple breeds on one yard? I have bulldogs one side, a pen full of beagles on the other side and an Australian Shephard who runs loose on the yard. I did not know one had to be true to the bulldog only. EWO

[OGDOGG]

You have Beagles and Australian Shepard. You know the difference from guys I know who have American bulldogs/pits, rott/pits, blues/pits, black curs/pits. These are the fools who think bigger and stronger will win over a game pit. Back when I had a big game dogs, my dogs used to cur them fools dogs out under 10 minutes. Nowadays those same dudes are out of dogs or has a pet bull.

[STA8541]

So is "Dogs of Velvet & Steel" not worth reading? I was considering getting a copy but I don't want to waste my coin if the book is filled w/that sort of nonsense. Currently it'd run me about a hundred bucks, so it's not exactly a cheap book.

[bamaman]

What is the deal with having multiple breeds on one yard? I have bulldogs one side, a pen full of beagles on the other side and an Australian Shephard who runs loose on the yard. I did not know one had to be true to the bulldog only. EWO

Lol EWO its because you from the south lol jk.I got some jack Russell's and a couple mutts for gaurd dogs.Some bulldogs and my Buddy has some plots so I got a handfull of them on the yard to..

[Officially Retired]

So is "Dogs of Velvet & Steel" not worth reading? I was considering getting a copy but I don't want to waste my coin if the book is filled w/that sort of nonsense. Currently it'd run me about a hundred bucks, so it's not exactly a cheap book.


It's a well put together book, but its only worth is the fact it's a pit bull book with pictures.

It's basically a novice with a dog named, "Tuffy Morochito," telling you all the stupid things he did with his dog, and pontificating about his "theories" about breeding ... though he himself never bred a single noteworthy animal.

If you want to add it to your library, hey, it's another pit bull book. And there are some nice old photos in it.

But that's about all that it is ...

Jack

[Macker]

There's some old time Irish staffs crossed with apbt's that are still flying the flag over here and beating good American imported dogs, there's one or two here that you'd need a shotgun to stop.

This line of staff/pit have been going and competing and winning for decades, before the first apbt's where imported to Ireland and the uk. I believe they are our version of the apbt that never left when dogs we're being brought to the US by Irish and whelsh migrants during the potato famine here. Those dogs where believed to be the foundation dogs of many of the lines of today.

[Macker]

I never realised there was a second page of posts here before I posted that lol, bit of a random post but hey it's a true story lol

[bamaman]

I will say growing up in the south it is not unusual to see a yard with diferent breeds.Most southerners take hunting very serious..After the civil war good dogs helped put food on the table weather it was gambling money or a good coon dog treed a coon .I have been running deer with black and tans,walkers, redbone all my life and its a great tradition that's been in my family for a long time.So a guy that has different breeds on his yard don't mean much to me .

[STA8541]

It's a well put together book, but its only worth is the fact it's a pit bull book with pictures.

It's basically a novice with a dog named, "Tuffy Morochito," telling you all the stupid things he did with his dog, and pontificating about his "theories" about breeding ... though he himself never bred a single noteworthy animal.

If you want to add it to your library, hey, it's another pit bull book. And there are some nice old photos in it.

But that's about all that it is ...

Jack

Thanks Jack.

[EWO]

Exactly my point from above. Our yard was coon hounds on one side (Redbones and English Red Ticks) and beagles on the other side (Shake and Kawliga). Through the woods to the bottom, bulldogs staked out all over.

Back then it seemed everyone within walking distance had hunting dogs. All kinds. Back then loading up dogs was the first step in filling up a freezer. EWO



I will say growing up in the south it is not unusual to see a yard with diferent breeds.Most southerners take hunting very serious..After the civil war good dogs helped put food on the table weather it was gambling money or a good coon dog treed a coon .I have been running deer with black and tans,walkers, redbone all my life and its a great tradition that's been in my family for a long time.So a guy that has different breeds on his yard don't mean much to me .

[bamaman]

Exactly my point from above. Our yard was coon hounds on one side (Redbones and English Red Ticks) and beagles on the other side (Shake and Kawliga). Through the woods to the bottom, bulldogs staked out all over.

Back then it seemed everyone within walking distance had hunting dogs. All kinds. Back then loading up dogs was the first step in filling up a freezer. EWO
I totally understand EWO nothing like waking up early and grounds frosted over and hounds screaming because they know it's time to go hunting ! Use to give me butterflies when I was a kid and I still get very excited lol.

[bamaman]

I had a younger person stop by a couple years ago and bragged what a good catch dog he had ...I said good deal do you have any scent hounds ? no ! Well point of story is u have to find the hog first ! so this is why u will see different breeds on a yard in the south !

[EWO]

Only did the hog hunting things twice. They had these 'strike dogs' which were mixed up plot/cur/walker looking dogs. We moved in a little closer with a couple of American Bulldogs. It was quite impressive. As intense as it is at the very moment of the catch, the dogs work very well together. I was surprised.

I know a guy around here that has deer hounds, fox hounds, beagles and coon hounds all on the same farm. I bet he feeds thirty or forty.

So around here multiple breeds on the same yard is nothing new, real close to being common place. EWO

[bamaman]

Had a man tell me his coon dogs were the best around these parts so I threw some firewood on the back of his truck and said lets go.I take him to a good spot ,so I get the fire going and he released the dogs it was dark and cold..So about 45 mins go by and I said they should have found one by now ! All the sudden I hear something behind us and it was one of his 2 hounds yawning and stretching lol! They came back and were alseep by the truck.Nothing to do with anything just a funny story.