Inheritance, Where's That Coming From

[TFX]

For years now I have been stating that traits tend to skip 4-5 generations, and that dogs usually favor one ancestor or another in their pedigree stronger than all of the others. I have used my own dogs as an example, and rightly so as I have been with this family of dogs for almost 25 years and this particular segment I have now for 23 years in an unbroken string of breedings.

I was looking through Ogdogg's pedigrees on those small dogs he posted, and came across a glaring example of this theory. Because these dogs aren't mine, and the dog in the example is crossed up pretty well, I want to use this example to demonstrate what I have been talking about. Here is the bitch, Twin Bulldog's UZY.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7985

I happen to know the bottom side of this stuff coming from Jesse Rods comes in almost all black and white dogs, and generally more compact, so clearly UZY isn't pulling her traits from mama. Now, on the top side we have a great dog from Puerto Rico; GrCh Onyx, who happened to be a cover dog on a shared SDJ cover in about 1992 or 1993 featuring dogs from Bebo Goenaga. Onyx was a black and white dog, and with all of the old Bullyson stuff behind Garibaldi, he looks more like that stuff. Where then does the rangy buckskin look come from? Well, if you know your bloodlines in this breed very well, it doesn't take a real expert to see that UZY is a Boomerang bitch! I knew that was a Boomerang dog the moment I saw the photo, before knowing there was any Boomerang breeding in the dog. I had to look to confirm it, and that is when I saw the Alexander blood back there, and was satisfied that my eyes didn't lie.

Now, many of you looking at the 4 generation pedigree might not be so familiar with the excellent stuff down from Alexander's Sweet William in the 4th generation. If you click on the Darling Nikki bitch's pedigree, alas you will see the heavy Boomerang blood behind UZY. Remember, I told you in the beginning that I have noticed it often takes 4-5 generations for traits to resurface? Well, in the 4th generation you get Sweet William who was a double bred Boomerang grandson, as well as some other intense Boomerang linebreeding. I suspect the other Alexander blood there is more of the same, but the pedigree is incomplete. Either way, we have identified the source of the dog's genetic influence.

So this UZY bitch is only 3/8ths of the old Alexander blood, but she is as straight on the Boomerang traits physically as you will see. In fact, she is more like those dogs than some own sons or daughters of Boomerang were. Why? There are two reasons. The own sons and daughters of Boomerang in many cases were expressing traits from 4-5 generations back in their own pedigrees. The second reason is that there is linebreeding on Boomerang behind UZY, which adds a measure of prepotency by limiting the genetic variables. You really need to look at a whole litter to get a true picture, but what this tells me is that Gr. Ch. Onyx threw more to his dam's traits than his sire's or his own.

Now, do you want to see it again? Let's go a couple generations down the line to CH Blonka:
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7981

I can tell you where her traits are coming from too. Blonka's physical traits have nothing to do with GrCh Destroyer, and nothing to do with Shorty Jr. Because I am intimately familiar with the blood on the bottom side of CH Blonka, I can tell you the traits are coming straight through Pebbles, but not from her. As an aside, "Little Nikki" looks nothing like Licon's CH Nicky who was actually a buckskin bitch. I knew Bill Licon very well back in the day, he has been to my house many times, and vise versa. I have seen dozens and dozens of these dogs, and close to that same number of them perform. I conditioned and handled a son of Pebble's brother Crowbar to a 2:57 win, so we have owned and used this blood, more than once actually. You see, CH Blonka looks more like CH Alien than even CH Nicky, Spider, or Pebbles did. Why? Because you get CH Alien twice in the 5th generation, AND once again it is linebred. The prepotency of Bill's stuff is also evident in the Little Nikki bitch who looks as straight as any of that stuff, and straighter than some of the direct stuff. You see, the buckskin CH Nicky was actually more of a throwback to the Tombstone/Red Baby blood in the............... yep you guessed it in the 5th generation that was also LINEBRED.

I hope I have showed you some interesting breeding patterns here. If you stick with your dogs long enough you will see it too, and if you are savvy you'll be able to identify it in other's dogs as well.

[pig mad]

I tried to be smart and think up a long reply because it is interesting and something i will be looking at in the future but all i come up with is "interesting"

[skipper]

Interesting read. I have always looked at parents and grandparents and to be honest never given much thought whats behind that. Because i might not have seen the dogs further back or i might not believe the peds 100%. That has made me more focused on what i have actually seen instead of the stories i have heard on dogs further back. Not saying it isn't important whats after the third generation, ofcourse it is. Maybe in time i will see this pattern myself. Hats off.

[skootermc]

Great post TFX....if you keep giving all of this information out, my competition will be getting better!!!! Oh well,it keeps me on my toes!!THANKS KEEP IT COMING...YIS

[scary]

^^^^ I agree TFX you are a world class walking book of info. Thank you for posting scary

[Officially Retired]

Agreed: another great post from TFX, just a pleasure to read.

It falls right in line with what I wrote about Silverback and Avila's Ouch, trying to discover "where" certain key traits come from in your dog's genetic background. I guess this thereby begs the question as to why to choose a linebreeding program over a mix-bred program, seeing as the dog involved in this discussion is a mix of several families.

The whole point of a linebreeding program (versus mixing lines) is to isolate & harness key traits when they pop up in an individual, by forming a program around that individual. While many great individual dogs come about through "mixing" lines, consistently getting results only comes through family breeding.

An intelligent breeder knows he'll never bat 100% in getting what he wants through family breeding ... but he also knows that, through proper selection and years of dedication, he will quickly be increasing the likelihood of his getting those traits, more reliably and consistently than the average breeder will ever see by randomly mixing dogs together in a haphazard program.

Jack

[Barnstormer Bulldogs]

very good read TFX. ive notice some of the same kind of genetic in my dogs. I was wondering how I got a red dog out of mostly black or buckskin dog till I remember his great grand sire in this 5 gen. then I figured that's how he go his color. I also have female that looks just like her great grand mother in her 4 gen

[CRISIS]

Again, a very good read from TFX!

My question to you is this........i see where your talking about physical traits and how they tend to "skip" generations...........but, as far as genes go the physical features are just a handfull/out of 1000's of genes.

Do they technically come in pairs? Or do they come scrambled? Example.........take your ranchero dog, he was a spitting image of abbott as far as looks go. But did he carry the same traits abbot carried as far as athletics & performance?

i remember reading that Bad Billy himself was a stifle wrecking monster in the [], i also remember hearing that Red Johnny was a rough SOB too!

so back to the ranchero example.......eventhough he is a physical carbon copy of Abbott, did the similiar performance gene come along with those physical genes, making the Complete package inheritance from Abbott and that corner of the ped..........OR.........is it more like , he LOOKS like abbott and performs more like RJ & chinaman when competing??

im not questioning your logic or theories i just want to get a better understanding of how this stuff works......do genes come scrambled or in complete "paires" persay?

again thanks for the post, it was a great read.

[OGDOGG]

Thank you TFX for breaking it down. If you compare Ch Alien to Ch Buddy, they look like litter mates.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8047
http://i.imgur.com/NyDxr.jpg
Only if I still have my old phone, their other brother Bullseye(who was stolen)is identical to Buddy but has black marks like Ch Alien. Not only do they look like Alien, they also are deep game bulldogs, like that line is known for.

[TFX]

Thank you TFX for breaking it down. If you compare Ch Alien to Ch Buddy, they look like litter mates.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8047
http://i.imgur.com/NyDxr.jpg
Only if I still have my old phone, their other brother Bullseye(who was stolen)is identical to Buddy but has black marks like Ch Alien. Not only do they look like Alien, they also are deep game bulldogs, like that line is known for.

A perfect example of how a piece of the ancestry that accounts for 12.5% completely dominates higher percentages of other family breeding in a pedigree. That kind of prepotency comes almost exclusively out of linebreeding programs. The chances that you would get a dog who figured only once in the 5th generation of a pedigree to continue to stamp offspring further down the line like this is highly unlikely. Now, just imagine if the entire pedigree was linebred for 5 or 6 generations on the same 2 or 3 dogs, how much more consistently are those traits harnessed? It is exponentially increased, and yet because of the many variables still very difficult.

[TFX]

CRISIS asked:

My question to you is this........i see where your talking about physical traits and how they tend to "skip" generations...........but, as far as genes go the physical features are just a handfull/out of 1000's of genes.

Yes, but it is about the only tangible example to work with, particularly with young dogs that cannot be evaluated yet. However, I believe that if a dogs resembles a particular segment of his ancestry, it is very likely that more of the genetic influence in other areas are also similar. OGDOGG basically said the same thing in his last post "Not only do they look like Alien, they also are deep game bulldogs, like that line is known for."

CRISIS asked?
Do they technically come in pairs? Or do they come scrambled? Example.........take your ranchero dog, he was a spitting image of abbott as far as looks go. But did he carry the same traits abbot carried as far as athletics & performance?

I don't know, for one he is only 10 months old, and furthermore I am no longer involved in the sporting aspect of the dogs whatsoever. Believe me I would like to know, but I never will.

CRISIS wrote:
i remember reading that Bad Billy himself was a stifle wrecking monster in the [], i also remember hearing that Red Johnny was a rough SOB too!

Billy was really a one dimensional chest dog with a freak of nature bite that broke bones and puncturerd lungs. Because of his match with Holt's Gr.Ch. Booger which went 1:33, he was one of the few freakish biters in history that was also proven deeply game. That was really my appeal to the Bad Billy blood was the gameness, coupled with better than average bite. The possibility that another biter like Billy will pop out certainly exists, but so does the chance of getting hit by lightning or winning the lotto.

CRISIS asked:
so back to the ranchero example.......eventhough he is a physical carbon copy of Abbott, did the similiar performance gene come along with those physical genes, making the Complete package inheritance from Abbott and that corner of the ped..........OR.........is it more like , he LOOKS like abbott and performs more like RJ & chinaman when competing??

See the answer above.


CRISIS asked:
im not questioning your logic or theories i just want to get a better understanding of how this stuff works......do genes come scrambled or in complete "paires" persay?

I think that I am a lot more like one of my grandfather's than the other. Heck, I am more like my mom's cousins on that side than I am my own dad, not so much in looks, but in mannerisms, responses to situations etc. That is not environmentally influcenced, as I have only one of my mom's cousins once, and the other twice. I think inheritance is a genetic package. That is not to say that everything will be identical, but it will tend to be more similar to one ancestor or one side of the family than all of the others.

[STA8541]

Billy was really a one dimensional chest dog with a freak of nature bite that broke bones and puncturerd lungs. Because of his match with Holt's Gr.Ch. Booger which went 1:33, he was one of the few freakish biters in history that was also proven deeply game. That was really my appeal to the Bad Billy blood was the gameness...[/B]

Question for TFX (or anybody who can speak to it): I have read that Bad Billy was handicapped in that match. He liked to root deep into & under the chest & drive his opponent up off the deck, but for this go they laid down some sort of slick tarp, so that when Billy went for his favored hold, his legs slid out from under him & he just couldn't do what he wanted to. So he got the worst of it in that match, & thus the opportunity to prove himself very game. Is that true, or just rumor?