breeding theory

[EWO]

I posted this on Jacks' old board around the time it ended so it never had many replies/thoughts. And this is just for arguments sake as I am looking for insight from people with far more experience with breeding than myself. So here goes.

Just names not an actual breeding. Lets say Poncho was bred to a daughter of Redboy (and this daughter was everything redboy from the tip of her nose to the tip of her tail) There were two females and two males. Female A is everything Poncho. Like Poncho spit her out. Female B is everything Redboy. Like she was out of him all over again. If Female A was bred back to Poncho this would be inbreeding on paper as well as an inbreeding on genetic traits. If female B was bred back to Poncho and she is everything redboy, this would be a paper inbreeding just like her sister, but in reality it would be genetically/traits-bred breeding similar to the first breeding to get these two daughters.

[EWO]

And the males. If Male A is everything Poncho, like Poncho spit him out. And when he is bred he throws the Poncho traits consistently, is he a Poncho dog in reality or is he still a Ponch/Redboy cross like his papers suggest?

[EWO]

And Male B. He has the traits of both (proverbial) smart like Poncho game like redboy but he throws everything from Masons hammer to Teals Jeff and everything in between when bred to close family members. Where does he fit in if he is throwing all over his genetic map? Sort of bored waiting for paint to dry on the truck in the shop. My brain is sort of wandering this morning, it could be the fumes, not sure. EWO

[Officially Retired]

You are essentially speaking of the difference between "paper breeding" and understanding the traits of the dogs you're working with :idea:

It is similar to the write-up I did on the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/wic.php) for this website: these "paper indicators" and "calculations" only deal with PROBABILITY not certainty.

At the end of the day, you still have to use your eyes, and school your dogs, to see if they're what they're "supposed" to be on paper ;)

When you begin to think like you're thinking, this is where you begin to "let go of the side of the pool," so to speak, and "swim" out there into your own ideas and perceptions and really get to know the gene pool(s) you're dealing with.

I have a ton of metaphors I can use to describe breeding, another one being a deck of cards. You get Ones and Twos ... Aces, Kings, and Queens ... the occasional Joker ... and many things inbetween. If you continuously pay attention (like what you're talking about) ... get rid of your low cards ... take advantage of what an occasional wild card can bring ... but mostly put the High Cards back into your "genetic deck" ... then over the years you will eventually be dealing a "consistently-stacked deck" that the average person trying to breed dogs will never be able to duplicate.

Jack

[TFX]

With my dogs there are two reasons we can keep tightening up and not get hurt by turning out inbred bums. One is selectivity, always trying to go to the higher end of the line. Second is that we keep breeding individuals from two sides of the line together to essentially refresh the original cross. You can do this kind of "cross" in a tightly inbred family over and over and over. Your average dummy looks at a pedigree like that as "inbred", and often avoids it because of a perception that the dog is bred "too tightly", giving no credit to the breeder's understanding of the genetics at hand. This is because too many dumb breeders in history have stacked pedigrees with little regard for selection and turned out litters of nothing dogs that only had some fancy names in the pedigree.

[Kimo615]

What's y'all opinion on this ped? I own this dog. I'd like to hear from you to Jack as I value your opinion.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15485

[Officially Retired]

What's y'all opinion on this ped? I own this dog. I'd like to hear from you to Jack as I value your opinion.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15485

Thank you for your kind words, and I would love to provide a good opinion for you.

Unfortunately, the truth is the value of my opinion (or anyone's opinion) on a given dog's breeding is directly proportional to their experience with the dogs behind it. Since I am personally unfamiliar with the traits of any dog in that pedigree, my opinion is worth little or nothing here.

The people who owned/saw the dogs in your first 3 generations would be the best to ask (especially if they had knowledge of the littermates to those dogs as well).

Jack

[Kimo615]

I appreciate your response Jack. His WIC is high. What's your thoughts on having a dog that tight? Any dog in general. Most dogs in his ped or just famous dogs in general are not that tight that ive seen. Most 20% and below. What effects would that have? If he turns out to be as good as I hope I planned on breeding him. With it being that tight. My plan is to take him to some heavy Chinaman or Frisco. I got access to a pup off Gr Ch Garners/GTOs Ceaser who appears to be a good one. I've seen him in person and liked him but never seen him perform. But I guess Gr Ch speaks for itself. I was just wondering your thoughts on dogs bred that tight in general. In 7 Gen I believe his WIC is 76 or 79% if I recall.

[Officially Retired]

Hi;

Again, the good or bad regarding the "tightness" of any breeding hinges entirely upon whether 1) it was tightened up on the right dog and 2) whether the genes stacked as hoped in the pup you selected.

I can't possibly tell you whether I personally would have tightened up on that dog myself (or even bred to him at all) ... without seeing the animal itself ... and I can't possibly tell you whether the genes of the breeding based on him stacked well or not in the dog you're asking about ... again without seeing that animal itself.

I know this is not the standard "Looks good!" answer that most people give; however it is the most honest, accurate response that is possible for a man to make who knows absolutely nothing about the dogs being discussed.

As I have mentioned in many other posts on this forum, everyone who thinks you can breed dogs "too tight" has merely tightened up on the wrong dog(s).

When the inbreeding selection process is done correctly, tightening-up improves the line :idea:

Jack

[EWO]

Those same guys will say inbreed and then outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO

[Kimo615]

Thanks Jack...I appreciate the answer you gave me. Better than some BS answer like you said. I still learned something from that answer though. So I appreciate it. And EWO ....your right. That makes sense to. So far he's turning out pretty good. But only time will tell. He ain't scared of shit...I can say that much. My neighbors got a big ass Am staff that wants to eat my pup alive. My pups 5 months old. But he will not even flinch when that Staff is trying to get at him. He's got excellent confirmation. Build is alot like Chinaman. Very lean athletic look. He resembles him alot even at such a young age. I got to go to TGs and hand pick my pup. I picked him because he act like he owned tha Damn place at 3 months old he was whooping all his littermates ass for a chicken quarter lol.

[TFX]

What's y'all opinion on this ped? I own this dog. I'd like to hear from you to Jack as I value your opinion.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15485

Kimo,

There are very good Frisco based dogs, and unfortunately some poor ones too. You have ample amounts of Frisco there and tripled up on Pew II. I don't know about her, but we bred to her brother Too Tight in a swap with Vinny, and as I posted elsewhere on this forum the results were 5 rank curs and 1 champion. Some people might call those good odds, but I had not been used to seeing 5 curs in any of our matings for many years, much less 5 that were that short on gameness. Too Tight threw some very rough dogs, and multiple winners. One of his better sons outgunned one of my dogs for :45 with his heavy fire power, and then in a very game and determined come from behind fashion, our dog stopped him by finishing in the kidneys in 1:03. Now, Crocodile and the Pew II stuff may produce a high percentage of game dogs, I don't know about it directly. In a pedigree like that I don't think talent is going to be your challenge, but I would probe the depth gameness well. If you get a real game one bred like that, move forward, that's what we did with our Frisco granddaughter.

[TFX]

Those same guys will say inbreed and then outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO

EWO, the inbreed then outcross breeding philosophy is basically like asking a contractor to build a building, then asking him to partially disassemble it again, or asking a race car driver to take it around the track for 3 turns, and then put it in reverse before crossing the finish line. When you stabilize a gene pool, outcrossing it destroys the whole intent of the beginning effort. People who do this really don't understand genetics well.

[OGDOGG]

I got access to a pup off Gr Ch Garners/GTOs Ceaser who appears to be a good one. I've seen him in person and liked him but never seen him perform. But I guess Gr Ch speaks for itself.

Do some research before you attempt this. ??????

[Kimo615]

That's great info TFX. Seems you have alot of knowledge on Garner dogs. Real knowledge not just hear say or looking at a ped. I do know the Little Gator stuff...Like 4x Black Angel and 1x Joe black are some good dogs. Just not sure how they are as producers. Of course this are BMW's dogs though. Tom really likes that bitch Pew and Pew 2. He uses them often in his program. So far my pup is looking good. But to young to tell Right now I'm gathering as much info as I can on his heritage. I've never ran Chinaman dogs before. The last of my yard got old died on me and I was always a fan of Chinaman himself so I decided to try a new line. Before I ran stuff down from Gr Ch Art...Eli Carver blends and some OFRN stuff.

[Kimo615]

Why do you say that OGDogg? I'm all ears.

[OGDOGG]

I got access to a pup off Gr Ch Garners/GTOs Ceaser who "APPEARS" to be a good one. I've seen him in person and liked him "BUT NEVER" seen him perform. But I "GUESS" Gr Ch speaks for itself.

I believe you already know what I am taking about. Good luck with your pup

[Kimo615]

Subliminal messages....I like it lol. Interesting. No...I was unaware. I just Google his name....found a chat saying he quit in a roll....found just as many saying he didn't. What am I still missing man?

[TFX]

That's great info TFX. Seems you have alot of knowledge on Garner dogs.

I'm no expert on Tom's dogs, but I had a buddy that bought a lot of dogs from Tom in the early 90s. We ended up with a real exceptional female that was half his stuff. The common Coal Cat blood in our yard led me to examine the GR CH Spikey, CH Rebel Yell/Rooster type of dogs from Beach Boy Billy. I turned a friend of mine named Jethro that direction since he already had a splash of it, and he really became the premier breeder of that stuff. Anything from Tom's yard with the Hollingsworth blood blended will be the best of that stuff you can get in my judgment, but there isn't much of it left. The other stuff people have had OK luck with is the Lee Ling, but my buddy had a pair right off Frisco X Lee Ling and they were junk. I have another friend who had a Frisco x Yoko bitch that they have done very well with as a producer. I still don't think the Lee Ling is as good as the Hollingsworth blends. The percentages on the Chinaman/Hollingsworth blends; and the Coal Cat stuff in particular, is actually quite remarkable. Unfortunately, after Jethro was arrested most of those Pencil/Coal Cat dogs are gone. The plan was to cross the Pencil/Coal Cat blood to my Frisco/Coal Cat blood to focus on that extremely high percentage of match dogs that came down from Coal Cat, but real life got in the way such as Jethro getting busted, my partner dying, and it just didn't happen.

[OGDOGG]

Kimo, I commented because you seemed unsure if you wanted that pup off Ceasar. I heard rumors about him. But that's all it is for now. What I am getting at is that you are the one whos gonna make that decision to buy that pup or not. Just make sure it's worth it. Do some research about the dog in question before you make a commitment. If you don't care what anyone thinks then do what you planned on doing. But if you believe In honesty, find out the truth first. I'm not gonna tell you what I don't know for sure cause if I did I'd be lying. Good luck on your quest for the truth.

[Kimo615]

Thanks brotha...yea that's exactly what I'm doing. Asking around...getting fact and opinion. Doing some research. Can't believe everything you read on the net. That's why I'm trying to engage in conversation about it with legit dogmen and finding someone who knows about him and other dogs that is a honest person. Honesty is a hard thing to find anywhere now days. Especially in this hobby. I do appreciate your comments and everyone who posted. But...there's only so much info out there. I know he's being bred with machete...my buddy got a pup this year out of Momo and machete. Momo was sired by Ceaser. So far the pup looks good. Again...just like mine...to young to tell. I've seen Momo and Ceaser. Both look great. Momo is Ch also. How either are as producers I dont know. This is my first venture into this bloodline so I'm a sponge at the moment so to say on the lines genetics and anything else that may do with the line. I hate starting over! Lol. I never was big time...just eat sleep and breath apbt as a hobby. I'm gonna keep prowling...see what I can learn or uncover. I'm still listening if anyone has anything on the bloodline in general or Ceaser and Crocodile.

[realpitsnobull]

What up kimo it don't matter if he quit or not does not mean the pup you buy will do the same and let's all be real dog men a lot of good dogs have quit!! Alot at some point and time for different reason if they around long enough . u got 2 great dogs draws can be rare. Your dog got its own history to make.

[TFX]

a lot of good dogs have quit!! .

Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs". Plenty of talented dogs have quit, plenty of famous dogs have quit, and plenty of quitters have become decent producers. A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

[realpitsnobull]

Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs". Plenty of talented dogs have quit, plenty of famous dogs have quit, and plenty of quitters have become decent producers. A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

Well your book will be missing some of the best dogs that ever walked the earth cause maybe they were bested or had a bad day! But like u sd suit yourself.

[TFX]

No, I am not missing anything. "My book" is already a very proven commodity that has stood the test of time, which can be attested to by to those fanciers who are in the know. You won't find a single dog who quit in any pedigree of a living dog my kennel bred for at least 5-6 generations, because I have owned or known every dog in the pedigrees for that long. Yes, I have some losers in my pedigrees, but they damn sure never quit. There have been a couple of exceptions where a segment of my line was bred and then had a quitting loss after a breeding was made. Any such segment has been completely abandoned as brood stock. Likewise with the any segment where at least half of the litter were not game dogs. This isn't mere theory, or speculation, or pipe dreams on my part, this is an absolute fact. There are maybe 1 or 2% of breeders out there who actually know how to breed dogs well, and of those breeders most of them don't make a habit of breeding dogs who "had a bad day". There may be situations that warrant an exception, but it certainly isn't the rule. "The best dogs that walked the earth" didn't quit, rest assured of that.

[Kimo615]

Hey Realpits, your right man. I'm not worried really on if he quit and my pup being a quitter as its proven than dogs that quit or curr can still produce. So I guess I got a 50/50 shot at getting a good bulldog out of the breeding. I was mainly wondering about Ceaser and Crocodile both and asking if anyone knows or has seen them perform. Maybe even have pups off either and opinions on Ceaser and Croc as producers. From what I understand, Croc himself as what I'm told is "Great". That's why he was doubled up on in his last breeding. That's about all I know on him other than his blood is highly sought after in Mexico and on the West Coast. (Little Gator) blood that is. Crocs a 50/50 Chinaman/Little Gator Dog. Ceaser heavy Frisco and is breeding back to Machete which is heavy Frisco to. Just dont know much else about either.

[STA8541]

About "good dogs" quitting:


Suit yourself, but that is kind of the point I stop calling them "good dogs"...A good dog in my book is a game dog, period.

I like this. I really, really like this. Isn't it true that you need gameness as a foundation for your yard? Before & above anything else? I'm just spitballing here, but can't you "layer on" whatever traits you might like to have in your dogs, whereas gameness...that's pretty much irreplaceable, isn't it? I always thought that was supposed to be at the bottom of all bulldogs, regardless of how hard he can bite or how powerful a wrestler or how smart he is or etc. I'll be the first one to admit I am no breeder, but to me you spell bulldog G...A...M...E. That's just me, though.

[Officially Retired]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

[STA8541]

Well, let's pretend for a moment that gameness is "absolute" (which it isn't), but to say talent doesn't matter is wrong IMO.

I have always selected for extreme gameness in my breeding choices (Hammer, the Hollingsworth dogs, No Regrets, etc.) ... but only when I also selected for a winning style did my win/loss record as a breeder begin to skyrocket.

Selecting for "gameness only" ... my win record for the first couple of years was just at 57% ...

When I begin to put some combat theory into the mix, and specifically select for a controlling head style, that would pace itself, then my record quickly went up over 75% ... and hasn't been below 80%, in any year, for well over 15 years now.

So Talent is definitely important too.

People who only breed to dogs they beat the hell out of, that "live and scratch" through their ordeals, will NEVER have a record much over 50%, I don't believe.

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.

Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?

[Officially Retired]

Fair enough. You can make any dog that ever lived quit, if you try hard enough. I've heard of all kinds of talented, frontrunning curs that are "just game enough" not to quit while they are ahead. Let them get a little fatigued, a little dominated, a little tired, a little thirsty, etc., & you see them sing a different tune. Jack, you are one of the breeders that, from what I have seen thus far, were definitely shooting for gameness (while ladling on all the other bits like controlling head style, etc.). TFX is definitely another guy who looks for gameness in his stock, based on his posts. And I can barely get my head out of your Hollingsworth book! Those pups seemed like (mostly) hella game beasts. But I know if you are looking for a match prospect, yes, having some level of ability can do nothing but increase your chances of winning, so long as he's got that deep gameness we (should) all treasure.
Incidentally, is that what you mean by the term "stupid game?" Just a no-talent plug that will keep scratching to a killing?


I don't want to breed to "front running curs" ether.

Basically, I look for a dog that never makes a bad move while he's doing the things I like to see dogs do.

If the dog gets that far away look in his eye, or in any way loses his focus or intensity, then I don't trust that dog anymore.

I stopped "game testing" my dogs in the mid-90s. By that I mean, beating the dogshit out of them and then seeing "if they scratch" to a total asswhipping.

To me this is stupid and abusive.

What I do is just see how my dogs look and perform and act while having a legitimate tussle with something GOOD their weight.

If they can go and go and go, and either win (or get picked up in a close one) still having total focus, then to me they are game enough to be competitive with whatever is out there.

The first shitty sign I see, I no longer have any interest in that dog. I don't need to beat the quit out of him.

Once I see any lack of total focus, I no longer trust or want that animal.

I don't have to beat up any dog to the point of disfigurement or whatnot to "see" gameness in him (or shit in him). All I have to do is roll him out with what I know is a damned good dog ... and watch that dog's performance like a hawk ... to see if that dog is competitive, and seriously focused enough, to be in open competition.

The rest is intangibles, shape, health, etc. that no one can plan for.

Jack

[STA8541]

I don't want to breed to "front running curs" ether.

Basically, I look for a dog that never makes a bad move while he's doing the things I like to see dogs do.

If the dog gets that far away look in his eye, or in any way loses his focus or intensity, then I don't trust that dog anymore.

What I do is just see how my dogs look and perform and act while having a legitimate tussle with something GOOD their weight.

If they can go and go and go, and either win (or get picked up in a close one) still having total focus, then to me they are game enough to be competitive with whatever is out there.

The first shitty sign I see, I no longer have any interest in that dog. I don't need to beat the quit out of him.

Once I see any lack of total focus, I no longer trust or want that animal.

Good post, thanks Jack. Seems like common sense which, as I know, is not all that common.

[EGK]

I like clean family bred dogs or intense line bred dogs that carry consistency and are game dogs that I can build on. Not so much in to inbreeding except at need or in preparation moving forward. Not to just hold on to or preserve, meaning you still have to show you have what I bred for. The individuals make up the blood and pedigree so I hate the preservation, bred to produce breedings, or its in the blood. I also do realize there are exceptions especially to those that have been with a fam long as exceptions are not the norm. I feel if a dog and his litter carries and produces consistent traits and I pair it with another that does the same then I can breed forward with dogs that compliment eachother. Even if I chose to cross this is what makes a good stud or brood bitch for me. Some individuals may pull more from certain parts of there ped or even have that little something a sibling lacks. If they can produce it is what counts and how consistent. I don't want 2 out of 10 and the rest undesireables or plugs and all out of uniform. I look at what a stud or bitches litter was like too and were they consistent. If I have 2 bitches, litter mates. They lack real good punch and bone. Both pretty intense and smart with good speed, natural air, strength, hard scratching, and gameness. But, one is all out and doesn't have the tools to do what she wants to do early. She takes a lot for it but settles well and counters movements well once she settles farther into things. She also has a little better body composition. The other just let's it come to her more and has the tools to hurt her opposition with great natural wind. To see them both the latter looks more rounded, but when put together they were tit for tat. This would show me even more so that the other was smart. She just felt she could and would try to go gusto.

Say I bred the sister that was more all out and settled well to a game durable male with finish and a sweet spot. He is bred off older dogs in her pedigree but up close still in the 2nd and 3rd generation threw different individuals. The older dogs had a more durable and rugged build to them. This is a back cross to pull forward the qualities in the gene pool I'd need without losing what I have. To me the bitch had every thing her sister did but just thought she could do more than her god given assets would allow nor was her instinct complete. But, she was smart enough to realize it at some point each time and solid enough to turn the tables while having the instinct to do so. I would not breed away from that. I would harness it and remember she was still in line with her litter and my program. Now fast forward say her offspring with said male so far are just what I bred for. More durable and know that sweet spot like there dad if they want to push early like there mom while being more rounded like what is consistent. I can't say I got more punch as they are young and developing. But since she wanted to finish but didnt have the tools the male from the family with a good sweet spot and durable was fitting to compliment her. For her sister, the more poised of the 2 and so to the point she seemed to not care how long it would take. Remember she has decent punch though and can hurt her opposition. Say I go with a male bred from the same family threw different individuals with slight outs but still in line with what exists. This male also hits the same sweet spot as the other male and sticks in holds and like the female stays out of trouble with good punch. He has very good bone and structure also. Her speed should also compliment him well. Not to mention being that his side of the family is known for being harder punching which you don't get a lot of school time out of. If checking my own good I'd know the level of gameness from the bitches side and determined dogs can compliment him and ultimately the program in the long run as well. He also comes from a litter that is consistent. Because they are so similar in lineage with this consistency and good %'s. I'd believe using the same formula to produce them that the traits will stick for better rounded dogs and hope in the future to bring the sisters pups together and back to the aunts. If I started with the bitches mom where I have complimented and corrected shortcomings improving my dogs 1st to 2nd gen. Also say there mom did have way more punch and so did there sire. I expect this 3rd gen may recoup that from them too as some traits skip generations. This in essence would keep me a couple breedings ahead at least in structuring my family and looking for the individuals. Oh and say I do have an out planned to a solid family bred male that is proven. This is what I will hope to keep at a 1/4th to 1/8th out or so to maintain the vigor in my family once I bring the breedings together. He himself is one of 3 out of 4 winning siblings and has all the traits I like and has proven his gameness. I also have a heavier bred male that is a nephew to the older male I back crossed to that is off his half brother and sister from a more intense line breeding. I'd also be watching for deficiencies. I would not knowingly put a deficiency in my program. If it is there and I have dealt with it then I will deal with it and narrow it chances of popping out when I can. This is my breeding theory to grow with in a nutshell.

[STA8541]

Wow. Thanks for sharing all that, EGK.

[EGK]

You welcome, I was bored lol and Im sure went over board. Smh

[S_B]

Those same guys will say inbreed and then outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO

:-bd

[Officially Retired]

Those same guys will say inbreed and then outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO


:-bd

Can't agree with that, really at all.

Suppose I have a highly-linebred bitch who has everything (speed, timing, reflexes, brains, air, the style I like, etc.) ... except she doesn't have a heavy mouth.
But I want to outcross her to mouthy dog down from a line known for heavy mouth in crease the mouth in my dogs a bit?
Does that mean I should shitcan my whole game, intelligent, longwinded yard ... just to "have mouthy dogs" ... even if those dogs SUCK as overall athletes compared to what I have? :confused:

Suppose that the heavy mouth dog doesn't have her speed, doesn't have her moves, doesn't have her style, etc. ... but he has the MOUTH I want ... comes from mouth ... and so I breed to that dog?
Suppose I then breed the best male back to my bitch, to double-up on what I like, and push the influence of that stud down a notch.
Typically, 3/4, 1/4 crosses have always been awesome.

My bitch might outclass the shit out of the "mouthy male" I bred to in a fight at even weight. He may never get his mouth on her one time.
Just because I bred to that male doesn't mean that he is "better," or his line is "better"; it means he has ONE trait I am looking to add to my (overall FAR better) dog and line.

But if I had to make an "either-or" decision, I would rather keep my line pure, and have everything BUT mouth ... than to lose everything I have to say, "I bite hard."

Most mouthy lines aren't known for gameness.
Most truly game lines aren't known for mouth.

All throughout history, dogmen have mixed inbred individuals from mouthy lines with lines known for gameness to "get it all" ... and I reckon this will always be the case.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Can't agree with that, really at all.

Suppose I have a highly-linebred bitch who has everything (speed, timing, reflexes, brains, air, the style I like, etc.) ... except she doesn't have a heavy mouth.
But I want to outcross her to mouthy dog down from a line known for heavy mouth in crease the mouth in my dogs a bit?
Does that mean I should shitcan my whole game, intelligent, longwinded yard ... just to "have mouthy dogs" ... even if those dogs SUCK as overall athletes compared to what I have? :confused:

Suppose that the heavy mouth dog doesn't have her speed, doesn't have her moves, doesn't have her style, etc. ... but he has the MOUTH I want ... comes from mouth ... and so I breed to that dog?
Suppose I then breed the best male back to my bitch, to double-up on what I like, and push the influence of that stud down a notch.
Typically, 3/4, 1/4 crosses have always been awesome.

My bitch might outclass the shit out of the "mouthy male" I bred to in a fight at even weight. He may never get his mouth on her one time.
Just because I bred to that male doesn't mean that he is "better," or his line is "better"; it means he has ONE trait I am looking to add to my (overall FAR better) dog and line.

But if I had to make an "either-or" decision, I would rather keep my line pure, and have everything BUT mouth ... than to lose everything I have to say, "I bite hard."

Most mouthy lines aren't known for gameness.
Most truly game lines aren't known for mouth.

All throughout history, dogmen have mixed inbred individuals from mouthy lines with lines known for gameness to "get it all" ... and I reckon this will always be the case.

Jack


or.... How about breed together two game lines that aren't known for mouth but are both game as can be, maybe the other game line is known for tough skin and really good air, traits that a high ability fast pace intelligent dog can use... and watch the mouth appear from nowhere!

[Officially Retired]

or.... How about breed together two game lines that aren't known for mouth but are both game as can be, maybe the other game line is known for tough skin and really good air, traits that a high ability fast pace intelligent dog can use... and watch the mouth appear from nowhere!


Sure, as you say, sometimes that type of thing comes from the very "hybrid vigor" itself.

Bottom line is, no one pure bloodline "has everything" ... although the best purebred lines are WELL ROUNDED.

I would say my dogs are extremely well-rounded animals: they're game, tough, smart, can move, can breathe, etc. ... and some can bite hard enough to end things in under an hour ... but they aren't "freak mouthed" dogs.

Almost everyone "mixes something" together in the attempt to get "the whole package."

The entire RBJ bloodline is the effort to mix Redboy and Jocko lines (gameness + finish/mouth) together to get a rounded animal. Jeep/Redboy, same thing.

The Boyles bloodline, same thing again (Bolio/Eli).

If anyone pays attention to Garner's dogs, they're essentially Bolio/Eli (Eli/Carver) also, with the idea of combining power + gameness/moves.

Ultimately, all these original "crosses" begin to become "purebred lines" of their own ... and, if what they produce is GOOD, they too will be well-rounded animals ... but, eventually, they'll also "lack something" that maybe some other bloodline "has" ...

The idea that this other bloodline that "has that" missing "something" they lack ... is automatically "superior" (as if on every level) ... is absolutely absurd.

There IS NO "purebred bloodline" that is comprised of ace-level dogs with no weaknesses.

EACH purebred bloodline becomes known for certain key strengths, and certain key limitations. That's just the way things work.

The best purebred bloodlines are simply well-rounded, capable athletes ... but that doesn't mean every trait they have is off the charts ... it just means they have no glaring weaknesses, can be depended on to go into the trenches, and so are tough to beat.

Jack

[DUKE_CITY]

Those saafteys will say inbreed anhim hen outcross. When that actually works odds are the outcross was better than the animals being inbred. If you have to go over there to get it, one should have been over there from the start. EWO


Subliminal messages....I like it lol. Interesting. No...I was unaware. I just Google his name....found a chat saying he quit in a roll....found just as many saying he didn't. What am I still missing man? I seen everything Ceasar did once he left nc. That dog never quit. If you contact lifetakers or stretched out kennels they'll tell you. We did roll him against wargam's push up and it was a straight blow out. Ceasar had purple blood running out of push up's chest after the first bite. Push up was almost gone in 5 minutes. (Eyes rolling in back of his head)They asked to stop it in 6 mins. We refused!!! After the older kennels said it was Unprofessional not to get Ceasar off push up. we agreed to get Ceasar. Push up scratched super weak. It took Jim to the 7 count to make contact.

When it was Ceasar turn he came like a rocket. The other handler picked his dog up before Ceasar hit him. Ceasar jumped up trying to rip him out this clowns hands. Ceasar fell over the box and hit his face off the cement floor. (All hell broke lose) Ceasar jumped back into the box and was chasing this clown around the box. We got Ceasar under control and was tail scratching him while things got ugly outside for picking his dog up during the scratch.

So in retaliation for the aftermath after the roll they told chico Lopez the dog quit and it spread like wild fire.

The reason for chico spreading the rumor was because Ceasar killed open house's big john Jr. (2xw) In 48 mins. Ceasar never touched his back.

Chico is a pure hater. He will claim Ceasar was 3 lbs heavier then big john Jr but that's incorrect. Ceasar was on weight at 46 and big john Jr was 45.13. We came down from 49 to 46.

The owner of push up barked up the wrong tree. He believed what was said on the net about Ceasar and got smashed in 7 mins. We where fools for playing with a clown like that but you live and you learn.

Push up end up getting killed in 17mins by gto's Fatboy. Sired by gto's big boy.

Sorry jack about the graphic details I just wanted to put our side out.

[Officially Retired]

No problem, this place is not Rated G, lol, so thanks for the clarification.

I hear you on Chico, and he is a POS who will down good dogs that embarrass his ass, so I can definitely relate.

Welcome aboard,

Jack

[DUKE_CITY]

ThanKs jack. It feels real classy around here. definitely a different environment compared to peds online.

I'll be on my best behavior. lol seriously!!!!!!!!

I'll log off before I get into a bickering conflict about a f****** dog. my record and my integrity speaks for itself.

I love the breed and I love to show, so anything outside of that can kiss my ass.

See ya around ca. Jack.

[Officially Retired]

ThanKs jack. It feels real classy around here. definitely a different environment compared to peds online.

I'll be on my best behavior. lol seriously!!!!!!!!

I'll log off before I get into a bickering conflict about a f****** dog. my record and my integrity speaks for itself.

I love the breed and I love to show, so anything outside of that can kiss my ass.

See ya around ca. Jack.


LOL, things don't usually get to that point here :)

If there are false rumors about your dog, it's not necessarily the fault of those who repeat them ... it's the fault of the originator.

Chico is becoming more and more famous for being the POS that he is (Evo helped in that regard, lol), and at the end of the day, nothing can take away from Cesar being a great dog.

It's good to get a chance to air your side of it, and that is welcome. Always good to hear it from the people involved.

Factual debate, and correcting misinformation ultimately helps everyone. I (and many of my dogs) have been at the wrong end of plenty of rumors ... that just means you're hurting people's feelings :mrgreen:

Jack

[S_B]

Good stuff Duke, welcome aboard! :-bd