Conditioned Cur

[Nextlevel]

in the midwest there is a bull dog named charlie brown who went out on 4 successful [] hog hunts at least. But the way he hunts always leaves the opinion that he is just a conditioned cur which imo some dogmen can win the hog hunts with a hound that the next man couldnt. why would that classify the hound as a cur ?

[OGDOGG]

If he won 4, sounds like the losers are hating. A win is a win and they couldn't prove he was a cur.

[skipper]

Haters will always hate. I imagine they aren't very eager to prove their point? I can respect a man that talk down a dog only to prove he is right. But the ones that always talks down dogs without any interest in proving their point aren't worth the air you breath. And who cares what they say? The dog is a 4xer. That means he was atleast game enough to bring home the bacon not one, but 4 times..

[evolutionkennels]

Has he quit?

[R2L]

well good conditioning could assist in preventing the dog from running hot(fast), not much more.
if the dog has never quit and wins his matches i would be more then happy to feed it.
ofc everyone can ruin a dog by stupid actions but im not that much of a believer in "magic hands" when it comes to gameness

[Nextlevel]

He has not quit he won 4 in the midwest then was sold to some guys down south and won 2 more. (i just verified this) imo the ability to stay out of trouble from the hog is smart not cur.

[Jon P. Lebron]

How long where it's hunts? Any info on how he acted during it's hunts? As R2L said wouldn't mind feeding it.

[FarmersChoice]

look at how many curs lost after being a champion it happens ... a dog that is smart dont mean its a cur though

[ResidentKennel]

It's hard enough to win one, let alone six. If he hasn't loss his status as a cur is yet to be determined regardless of his style.

[FrostyPaws]

Ultimately, it depends on what you want to feed and like. Even if the dog is a winner, it boils down to how many faults you, as the owner, can live with. I have seen a few dogs that won 3 and 4 that I simply wouldn't feed after I was done showing them. Hell, they may not have even made it that far at my house simply due to the fact I don't like particular actions.

Dogs that make every bad move in the book and win are winning dogs, but would I breed to one of those or feed it any longer than I had to do so? Hell no. I've fed a dog or two some years ago that did that kind of thing, and ultimately, at this stage, I simply can't stomach that kind of thing any longer than necessary. So, before everyone goes on about they'd be glad to feed dogs that win 2, 3, or 4, take into consideration what it is you may actually be feeding. Curs don't have to quit to be curs. I don't know if the dog mentioned in this thread is being "hated" on or not, but I know the truth is out there if someone wants to find out for themselves.

[Officially Retired]

"I am not betting on his 'being game,' I am betting on him winning."
~Earl Tudor

[skipper]

That's what its all about. At least in a show. In a breeding program its a different story.

[R2L]

Its always about winning. Many styles all have it own charm; It's amazing to see some dogs still go after 3 houres, in shock or after taking serious beatings but what's the worth of gameness when your dog is being killed in 30 minutes.

[TFX]

Sounds like the perfect gambler's delight to me!

[EWO]

No truer words have ever been spoken. Remember the dogs were bred for one thing. And that competition requires one winner and one loser. The winner can be the biggest POS on the planet, yet he is the winner. The loser may be the gamest dog that ever lived, but he can still be a loser. Like Frosty Paws said I have seen winning dogs I would not feed and seen losing dogs I have tried to buy pit side.
Had a bitch once. All night game, pretty good ability, mouth was average at best. At thirty minutes it was obvious we were out-mouthed and it would not end well. We had seen some signs early that we were on a rough cur. Held on for ten more minutes but decided to pick up. We saved a really good bitch that went on to produce some nice dogs. The other dog was bought pit side for $$$$$$. When asked, and only because I was asked, I said I believe the bitch didn't have ten more minutes in her but I didn't bring enough to get there. I was called a hater as well. The $$$$ was brought back out six months later and packed it in in 20 minutes. The bottom line is winning does not mean better, but it still means winning. EWO




"I am not betting on his 'being game,' I am betting on him winning."
~Earl Tudor

[FrostyPaws]

Sounds like the perfect gambler's delight to me!

This ^^

The only dog like that I would even bring again would be a snapping turtle of a dog. Turning, running, squealing dogs? Nope. I don't care what they did in between the times where they weren't running, turning, or squealing. Ch.Justice was that type of dog, except he also snapped the opponent into oblivion. It was horrible to watch. It's one of those things where you just know if you had a little better dog, you could get him outta there. The only problem was that Justice, aside from all his qualities I hated, was one durable SOB. When he was in the corner, he was hopping fuckin mad to go, so he would just shoot across and nail you on the face/head area.

I can't take anything away from the dog, but I sure do hate that sumbitch! :)

[FarmersChoice]

hahha frosty this reminds me of when me and u were discussing gr ch tornado u said that bitch had to be a cur she won 10 strait lol

[EWO]

I guess i like the idea of the gamblers delight but I also like the warm fuzzies thinking my partner is going to keep going and going. Had a bitch once that was as talented as all get out, a lot of mouth, and could position herself to deliver and not receive. She was a thing of beauty. She made all her scratches. But not one of them convinced anyone she would make the next. It was slow ( I always wanted to say methodical, but methodical would say I saw some intent) with no indication she would make it all the way. We slow counted her, held her in the corner for long counts, nothing changed. She would just make a casual stroll across and take hold, and ramp it up from there. We won one with her for just a few pennies and she ended up being a fair producer. I think she had more heart than I did confidence or maybe she had more confidence than I had heart. Never figured it out. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Interesting post, EWO, and a very honest one as well.

I think many dogmen operate out of their own fears & insecurities. We all want a "sure thing," meaning a dog that will never let us down. I personally hate bad signs also. But a dog that just trots a scratch is often just a confident, easy-going animal.

I would be far more satisfied with a rock-solid winner that only trotted its scratches than I would be with a winner that turned, snapped, etc.

Jack

[Black Hand]

if the dog never quits, calling him a cur is only speculation. no different than suggesting anything that has never happened no matter how likely it may seem. if it hasn't quit, that's the facts weather you like how he acts or not.

[EWO]

True. But then there are like a million ways to define cur. If we were at a hypothetical show and a dog made a hypothetical chest sliding chin scraping two legged push and gets counted out half way across. There will always be at least one guy who will say if he were game he would have stood up and made his scratch. Based on that comment there will be a guy on the internet proclaiming he would never have bred to that piece of shit since he quit 25 years ago. And he knows this to be true because he knows a guy that knows a guy who saw it. EWO

[Black Hand]

True. But then there are like a million ways to define cur. If we were at a hypothetical show and a dog made a hypothetical chest sliding chin scraping two legged push and gets counted out half way across. There will always be at least one guy who will say if he were game he would have stood up and made his scratch. Based on that comment there will be a guy on the internet proclaiming he would never have bred to that piece of shit since he quit 25 years ago. And he knows this to be true because he knows a guy that knows a guy who saw it. EWO

true, that's why I can only speak for myself cuz we all have different views right or wrong. I didn't read all the comments to see where this thread has gone. my post was for the dog in the original post. I wouldn't call another mans dog a cur if it hasn't quit. I can only control what I feed and really only know my own dogs. there are some weird dogs though. it's ultimately up to the owner who knows him best.

[TFX]

Plenty of game dogs fought a "cur style" but that doesn't make them a cur. Plenty of curs never made a bad sign before they stopped either.

Bobby Smith and I were going to match a little gambler's delight once, but we parted ways before it happened. He was a B grade ability dog that we had proved deeply game, but he screamed from the words "release your dogs". He was really screaming for the fight, not because of it. To the unknowing spectator it didn't sound good! The plan was for Smith to come in on my side and then start betting against me on the scratches. The show would be in front of a lot of people so we could spur others into the same bet and clean house whether we won or lost.:dancin:

[FrostyPaws]

if the dog never quits, calling him a cur is only speculation. no different than suggesting anything that has never happened no matter how likely it may seem. if it hasn't quit, that's the facts weather you like how he acts or not.

That's simply not the case. See enough dogs go, and you can spot curs, and you don't have to see them actually quit to even know. Perfect example is a bitch from not long ago. Looked good the first 10, then after that, she did a lot of turning, running, and she went from running scratches full bore to walking them. She was picked up. I don't have to SEE that dog quit to know she was a cur. The writing was on the wall for everyone to see. Unfortunately, not everyone can read that particular writing for whatever reasons.

Old man Nate had some type of uncanny ability to spot a cur in a show that never made a bad move. I don't know how he did it, but he did it regularly. I could never read that writing aside from having a certain gut feeling about some.

[R2L]

theres a big difference in a winning dog and dog who was picked up before it could cur out.

[Black Hand]

That's simply not the case. See enough dogs go, and you can spot curs, and you don't have to see them actually quit to even know. Perfect example is a bitch from not long ago. Looked good the first 10, then after that, she did a lot of turning, running, and she went from running scratches full bore to walking them. She was picked up. I don't have to SEE that dog quit to know she was a cur. The writing was on the wall for everyone to see. Unfortunately, not everyone can read that particular writing for whatever reasons.

Old man Nate had some type of uncanny ability to spot a cur in a show that never made a bad move. I don't know how he did it, but he did it regularly. I could never read that writing aside from having a certain gut feeling about some.

that's a far cry from a dog that has won 4.

[Officially Retired]

That's simply not the case. See enough dogs go, and you can spot curs, and you don't have to see them actually quit to even know. Perfect example is a bitch from not long ago. Looked good the first 10, then after that, she did a lot of turning, running, and she went from running scratches full bore to walking them. She was picked up. I don't have to SEE that dog quit to know she was a cur. The writing was on the wall for everyone to see. Unfortunately, not everyone can read that particular writing for whatever reasons.
Old man Nate had some type of uncanny ability to spot a cur in a show that never made a bad move. I don't know how he did it, but he did it regularly. I could never read that writing aside from having a certain gut feeling about some.


Strictly-speaking, concerning the nature of knowledge vs. belief, what you describe isn't "knowledge" at all; it's belief. Even justified belief.

The simple truth is, if you did not see a dog quit, then you do not "know" the dog would have quit, you merely have very strong (even justified) belief that the dog would quit.

I myself have seen a ton of dogs that I was 100% sure that they would have quit, and I may have been right, but my strong beliefs were not "knowledge" either; they were merely very strong, justifiable beliefs.

Only when the dog actually stops, and confirms the justifiable beliefs that we have, do those beliefs then get upgraded to true KNOWLEDGE.

Jack

[EWO]

I was trying to figure the best way to say that as well. There are a few dogs down the road from me that chase cars religiously. I believe with every fiber of my being they will get hit by a car, but until they actually get hit, they are still chasers. I do not know they will get hit but based on my experience odds are they will eventually be hit. A silly comparison I know, but no matter how bad they look until they actually hang it up they are still on the right side of the measuring stick. EWO

[bolero]

That's simply not the case. See enough dogs go, and you can spot curs, and you don't have to see them actually quit to even know. Perfect example is a bitch from not long ago. Looked good the first 10, then after that, she did a lot of turning, running, and she went from running scratches full bore to walking them. She was picked up. I don't have to SEE that dog quit to know she was a cur. The writing was on the wall for everyone to see. Unfortunately, not everyone can read that particular writing for whatever reasons.

Old man Nate had some type of uncanny ability to spot a cur in a show that never made a bad move. I don't know how he did it, but he did it regularly. I could never read that writing aside from having a certain gut feeling about some.if the dpog wins and does not quit it is nit a cur u can speculate all day and say he will cur but that is like saying all dogs will quit when dead game dogs dont and we can not bring them back to find out

[FrostyPaws]

that's a far cry from a dog that has won 4.

It's not a far cry from a dog that's won 4. Ch.Dahmer was a dog that won 3, and pretty much did the exact same thing for his 4th. He was picked up while standing the line on his turn to scratch. 3x winners or 4x winners have quit throughout history and given bad signs when doing so, so it's not a far cry whatsoever.

R2L, the difference isn't as big as you may think. Ever seen a winning dog not run a courtesy scratch when the other dog quit already?

[FrostyPaws]

if the dpog wins and does not quit it is nit a cur u can speculate all day and say he will cur but that is like saying all dogs will quit when dead game dogs dont and we can not bring them back to find out

It's nothing like saying all dogs will quit. If you think a dog will quit, you can find out at a later date, if you so choose. You can't bring the dead back to life to prove anything.

[FrostyPaws]

Strictly-speaking, concerning the nature of knowledge vs. belief, what you describe isn't "knowledge" at all; it's belief. Even justified belief.

The simple truth is, if you did not see a dog quit, then you do not "know" the dog would have quit, you merely have very strong (even justified) belief that the dog would quit.

I myself have seen a ton of dogs that I was 100% sure that they would have quit, and I may have been right, but my strong beliefs were not "knowledge" either; they were merely very strong, justifiable beliefs.

Only when the dog actually stops, and confirms the justifiable beliefs that we have, do those beliefs then get upgraded to true KNOWLEDGE.

Jack

Correct. I mistyped my terminology, which does happen at times. :)

[Officially Retired]

Correct. I mistyped my terminology, which does happen at times. :)

You mean misstated :lol:

[FrostyPaws]

Mistyped, misstated...Missed SOMETHING...

[Black Hand]

I think what frosty is saying is he does not like to feed dogs that make those signs, weather they have quit or not. I think most people can attest to that but it can be harder to see for some when they love or think the world of their dog.

[FrostyPaws]

That is correct BH. Having fed dogs that did that kind of thing for some years, I found that more times than not those particular dogs hung it up, and they looked very shitty doing it. Again, it comes down to what a person can live with. Some people can live with funky acting, turning, cur snapping, and squealing dogs. I, on the other hand, cannot. :)

[EWO]

Very true. Like I mentioned earlier we lost to one just like that and she was bought pit side for $$$$. I was told I was hatin' when I said she was a cur looking for a spot to check up. I guess I was misspoken/misstated or did not explain there was a difference between actual fact and what I believed. I said she was a cur. But, like in a lot of cases, freak mouth hides a lot if that is all one is seeing. We got bit down, felt we had a solid game dog, picked up and she produced a couple for us some years later. The dog I was hatin' on checked up in a matter of minutes on her next venture. Just seeing her that one night for forty or so minutes I thought she would cur, thought she was a cur or she had cur tendencies. Any of these would make me not want to feed her. EWO





That is correct BH. Having fed dogs that did that kind of thing for some years, I found that more times than not those particular dogs hung it up, and they looked very shitty doing it. Again, it comes down to what a person can live with. Some people can live with funky acting, turning, cur snapping, and squealing dogs. I, on the other hand, cannot. :)

[YELLOWJOHN]

HATERS HATE WHATS NEW?

[EWO]

////??????////





HATERS HATE WHATS NEW?

[Officially Retired]

Very true. Like I mentioned earlier we lost to one just like that and she was bought pit side for $$$$. I was told I was hatin' when I said she was a cur looking for a spot to check up. I guess I was misspoken/misstated or did not explain there was a difference between actual fact and what I believed. I said she was a cur. But, like in a lot of cases, freak mouth hides a lot if that is all one is seeing. We got bit down, felt we had a solid game dog, picked up and she produced a couple for us some years later. The dog I was hatin' on checked up in a matter of minutes on her next venture. Just seeing her that one night for forty or so minutes I thought she would cur, thought she was a cur or she had cur tendencies. Any of these would make me not want to feed her. EWO

Very true statement--and well said.

Can't begin to tell you how many "hard mouth wonders" have quit to my "no-mouth" dogs over the years :lol:

[EWO]

Jack, I have seen it that way a number of times as well. Many a dog has checked up for the simple reason this one did not fold like the others did. It is basic math in a lot of ways. Since more dogs quit than do not, the longer two are together the odds of one of them quitting multiply with each passing minute. So when one has one that will stay the odds of him winning increase dramatically for that simple reason alone. And as simple as this is, there have been tons of people and will continue to be tons of people who are totally taken by the bone crusher. So taken, that the bone crusher screamed out long the way he had no plans of hanging around for very long and no one heard him. Or worse, they heard him and thought his 30 minutes of hell will be more than he would ever need.

[Officially Retired]

Jack, I have seen it that way a number of times as well. Many a dog has checked up for the simple reason this one did not fold like the others did. It is basic math in a lot of ways. Since more dogs quit than do not, the longer two are together the odds of one of them quitting multiply with each passing minute. So when one has one that will stay the odds of him winning increase dramatically for that simple reason alone. And as simple as this is, there have been tons of people and will continue to be tons of people who are totally taken by the bone crusher. So taken, that the bone crusher screamed out long the way he had no plans of hanging around for very long and no one heard him. Or worse, they heard him and thought his 30 minutes of hell will be more than he would ever need.

The "bone crusher" is always nullified by the dog that fixes it so there's nothing to bite ... and that is tough enough to handle it when he does get bit.

It's the same physical set of rules that allowed Mohammed Ali to outclass, outhustle, and outsmart all of the hardest punchers in heavyweight history. Liston, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, etc. all "hit harder" than Ali, but none of them had Ali's overall speed, timing, reflexes, and intelligence.

I would take a smart, fast, total athlete all-day everyday over a "great biter."

Most SUPER-Grand Champions are not freak biters at all; they are consummate, all-around athletes :idea:

Jack

[EWO]

Very true. Ali is a very good analogy as well. Even to hear Foreman say he was the 'dope' in the rope-a-dope speaks volumes. Tyson speaks to this as well. Mike Tyson could punch no harder later in life than he could in the beginning. With D'Amato with him he fought smart. He was in shape. He moved. He did not get hit. Upon the loss of D'Amato he was a freak puncher who did nothing more. For a short time the freak punching, as well as the reputation of being a freak puncher, hid the eroding skills (maybe not eroding but skills not used, not being mentally prepared). It finally caught up with him and he faded into nothing more than a punch line for lots of people. This may be another topic altogether but in a lots of cases it is the man behind the dog that gets things done. EWO

[DryCreek]

He has not quit he won 4 in the midwest then was sold to some guys down south and won 2 more. (i just verified this) imo the ability to stay out of trouble from the hog is smart not cur.

The dog in question sounds to me like a dog that is not only focused but Game.Most dogs go all out and then quit. I like the dogs that can step with those fucken barnstormers and then kill them when they run out of gas.that's a real dog
Ch Rocky Ch Trey 2xer Slick dog all methodical dogs that knew what they wanted. Just takes abit of time.

[Officially Retired]

The dog in question sounds to me like a dog that is not only focused but Game.Most dogs go all out and then quit. I like the dogs that can step with those fucken barnstormers and then kill them when they run out of gas.that's a real dogCh Rocky Ch Trey 2xer Slick dog all methodical dogs that knew what they wanted. Just takes abit of time.

That is exactly the kind of dog that I like ... always have, always will :)

[EWO]

Exactly. Tapping back to another post it is a team sport. I like the athletic and smart game dog because then my conditioning efforts make a good contribution to the team. By him being athletic we can work him to be physically capable of handling the first wave. With his intelligence he will position himself to counter that first wave. The combination of the two will allow him to lay some pipe immediately after the first wave and continue to lay some pipe before the next. The athleticism and physicality after the first wave will decrease the height and strength of the second wave. This builds a lead. The secondary effect from this is the other dog grabs another gear to catch up. From there the amount of time his keep has made available to him in the beginning begins to decrease. He is somewhere really close to panic effort. Panic effort always burns more gas. The smart and athletic dog offsets this barrage as well. When the barrage fades that lead is increased and continues to increase as one dog fades and the athleticism (as well as the keep) takes over. The gap between the two widens with every passing minute. Credit seldom goes to this winning dog. Mostly because he did not bite shit in half at minute one. Partly because smarts and intelligence is always the underdog in comparison to mouth. When a dog uses smarts and intelligence to win there is always ten guys pit side with one at home that can beat him. If the destroyer mops the floor with one few have one for him. Just the way I have seen it. EWO

[FarmersChoice]

thats some what true ewo there is always one that thinks they have that counter style or maybe not style but just think they have the perfect dog to beat that one every hunt can have a different out come even if u do a keep the same way with 2 different dogs the out come can change in a mater of many different ways im sure we all like the dog that seems unbeatable in the woods but fact is thats just not the norm aces like that pop up once in awhile and them aces usually are not gonna produce them selves cause there a ace aka once in a life time dog but hellif you have one that will do it all then no need for anything else probly lol but anyway what i like to see is a winning styly one that gets it done i dont care how if that dog can make the hunt time and time again im gonna use him if he keeps coming home that a good one