Raw Feeding Fact or Myth?

[blake]

Does feeding a dog raw make them aggressive or increase the chances of it turning on you?

[R2L]

Myth

[DOGNMAN]

Blake my brother, does eating a cool and nice ice cream makes you feeling hot and sweaty,or does it leave a burning taste in your mouth after wards...?

[skipper]

Some dogs are more protective over their raw food than they ever would if they ate kibble. I don't accept it one bit on my yard. But you should be aware that sometimes there is a difference.

[blake]

Blake my brother, does eating a cool and nice ice cream makes you feeling hot and sweaty,or does it leave a burning taste in your mouth after wards...?

Lol. I personally didnt believe it, but after hearing it so many times I had to adk.

[blake]

Some dogs are more protective over their raw food than they ever would if they ate kibble. I don't accept it one bit on my yard. But you should be aware that sometimes there is a difference.

Thanks skipper

[EWO]

It turns them into blood thirsty killers. Actually it is a myth, but a myth that sure has been kept going. EWO

[Officially Retired]

There is actually some truth to it.

Take my Stormbringer dog, for example: I could feed him kibble and he would start eating it no problem. I wasn't feeding raw back then, but I did give him knucklebones ... and as soon as I gave that fucker a bone, I couldn't get near him for 2 hours. He would literally go after me like I was an enemy.

Even my Silverback dog was sketchy when I fed him a raw, whole animal. Again, I could feed The Gorilla kibble and I could eat out of the bowl with him. Didn't care. For that matter, I I could feed him raw chicken quarters, and he'd wag his tail at me as I watched. But if I gave Silverback a raw, whole RABBIT (or chicken or quail) ... he would always move away from me ... and if I pushed the issue and got close to him ... he would start to growl at me. The Gorilla never flat-out attacked me, like Stormbringer would if he had a bone, but Silverback damned sure would warn me not to fuck with him when he had a "kill."

So I have to say there *is* some truth to the fact raw flesh makes dogs more likely to bite, at least it does with super alpha-male type dogs. In fact, if people watch "The Best You Can Do" aspect of my DVD on raw, you can watch Silverback growl at me, when I get close to him while he's eating a raw quail.

That said, under normal circumstances, feeding chicken quarters etc. has never caused any dog to go after me, but I haven't really messed with my dogs when I feed them. But I absolutely I would NEVER let any little children go anywhere near a bulldog while they're eating raw meat.

Jack

[blake]

Thanks Jack for the info. Really helpful.

[EWO]

Interesting. I have never experienced that with any of my dogs. I am not sure how I would take that. I have fed dry food, raw, as well as whole prey and never seen any aggressive behavior. Learn something every day. EWO

[bgblok68]

Glad I'm not the only one that has noticed this. Some of these arent to bad but some of them have gotten food aggressive over a big chunk of meat or bone. Fruits or vegetables dont seem to matter just meat.

[Steeldog]

My bulldog will fight over dry feed with other dogs. He could care less if I touched his dry feed. He will warn me and growl over meat. He keeps it heavily guarded.

[OGDOGG]

It just depend on the dog. They have feelings too so anything is possible. Some could be food aggressive just like some inmates locked up in prison. Some don't give a sh*t if other dogs eat with them. I had one(first pit)who tried to kill me over some chicken blood that my sister left in the basement. I had another who would growl when I come near him eating his leg quarter. You better believe that was the last time he ever growled at me. Dogs that growl at you don't respect you enough. And those type of dogs has to change the way they are or they're out of here.

[R2L]

i think the myth is, raw makes dogs more aggressive overall. which is simply not true

protecting a piece of meat, who cares. let the dogs eat.

[OGDOGG]

I could care less if the dog is trying to protect its meat from other dogs, but if they're growling at me, the hands that feed them, it's a different story. Chain spots are limited here. Curs, human aggressive pits, meat growlers, and anything not up to my expectations gotta go. I breed, raise, and show everyone of them so I can't allow them to have that gene and pass on to their offsprings.

[skipper]

I agree! A dog like the one jack describes would have to go on my yard. Thing is if I have one like that I can never leave the yard without having the fear of something happening when i'm away. I understand Stormbringer was a dog out of the ordinary, and if a dog is exceptional I might keep it as long as I can show him. Have done that in the past, but sooner or later he's got to go. No matter the quality. Now if i had a huge yard and always had somebody who i knew could handle a dog like that I wouldn't care.

[R2L]

i always teach my dogs to get out the way when i put down the food. whatever they do after that i dont even want to know.
i thought they only do that on discovery channel with the plastic hand.

[Officially Retired]

I agree! A dog like the one jack describes would have to go on my yard. Thing is if I have one like that I can never leave the yard without having the fear of something happening when i'm away. I understand Stormbringer was a dog out of the ordinary, and if a dog is exceptional I might keep it as long as I can show him. Have done that in the past, but sooner or later he's got to go. No matter the quality. Now if i had a huge yard and always had somebody who i knew could handle a dog like that I wouldn't care.

Well, the dog was too good to get rid of, and the solution to the problem was easy: leave him alone when he's eating.

Under all other circumstances, Stormy was a stable, affectionate dog.

If I had a dog that would attack/growl at me "in general," or who was unstable, sure I would kill a dog like that too.

But to kill a normally-stable, absolute ace-caliber pit dog over his basic instincts in protecting his bone, would be overly-emotional stupidity on my part ... when all I had to do is let him enjoy his bone and not fuck with him.

Because, when speaking of respect, you also have to respect your dogs (especially the badass ones with enormous ego and drive), and you need to leave them in peace when they're eating. That is also part of what it means to "understand dogs" :idea:

Jack

[scary]

what some people seem to forget is dogs are still ANIMALS. They will always revert back to there basic animal instinct like protect a fresh kill and so on. No matter how many boot blessings you give a hound for growling or whatever form of discipline action you take. At the end of the day a dog is still a ANIMAL with basic things like protect my kill and a bunch of other things are HARD WIRED in to them. To think that you can remove that from your dog not only shows stupidity but a lack of basic understanding and connection with your hound. JMO

[Officially Retired]

what some people seem to forget is dogs are still ANIMALS. They will always revert back to there basic animal instinct like protect a fresh kill and so on. No matter how many boot blessings you give a hound for growling or whatever form of discipline action you take. At the end of the day a dog is still a ANIMAL with basic things like protect my kill and a bunch of other things are HARD WIRED in to them. To think that you can remove that from your dog not only shows stupidity but a lack of basic understanding and connection with your hound. JMO

That is exactly right.

Some people need to "get over themselves," and let their dog be a dog.

Jack

[OGDOGG]

It's easy to say all that when you don't have kids around. Getting rid of a dog like that in the first place is to prevent future mishaps. One of the main reason GreenEyes is out of here was because he snatched a piece of meat from one of the kids and at the same time got a piece of her shirt. Now that you mentioned the Gorilla growling at you, GreenEyes does the same thing. He growls exactly like his mom. You could also make a case and say why didn't I put him somewhere else while there was a BBQ in the back? If I put him in a crate inside, he'll destroy it like those other 7 crates he went through, put him in a kennel inside? He will only bark until he comes back out on his chain spot. So it's a lose lose situation. That dog has no respect for anybody.
At scary: you're right, some are like that(GreenEyes) and some are smart enough to know what their owners expect of them. That's the reason why I get rid of the ones I can't control and keep the ones that meet my expectations. Some people are so stupid that they think all dogs will revert back to their animal instinct, when all they have to do is teach them with a piece of treat.

[Officially Retired]

It's easy to say all that when you don't have kids around. Getting rid of a dog like that in the first place is to prevent future mishaps. One of the main reason GreenEyes is out of here was because he snatched a piece of meat from one of the kids and at the same time got a piece of her shirt.

I would not have a dog like that around kids.

As I already mentioned on this post (and mentioned on my Feeding Raw DVD), I would never feed meat to a dog with kids around.

It is my firm belief that behind every "dog bite" incident to a child is the irresponsible dog management of an adult.




Now that you mentioned the Gorilla growling at you, GreenEyes does the same thing. He growls exactly like his mom.

The Gorilla never growled at me, under any circumstance, except when I tried to take a raw animal from him.

Brick House never growled at me one time in her life. She only growled at strangers, and even then only a select few strangers.

Brick House is in fact with a woman now, and is living a nice life, and (again) never growled at either this woman, her boyfriend,, or (now) her mother. Brick House is an extremely smart animal, with a big ego yet a loving heart. If she loved you, she would defend you fiercely. If she didn't trust you, she would let you know. She was one of those dogs who knew who her friends are (and aren't), so if she continued to growl at you, I would imagine it was only because she didn't like the treatment or vibe she was receiving from you.




You could also make a case and say why didn't I put him somewhere else while there was a BBQ in the back? If I put him in a crate inside, he'll destroy it like those other 7 crates he went through, put him in a kennel inside? He will only bark until he comes back out on his chain spot. So it's a lose lose situation. That dog has no respect for anybody.


I would indeed make the case that I wouldn't keep a dog like that around kids. However, if he was also a crate-eater, then that makes confining him problematic. In that case, I would either keep him in an above-ground pen, or (if I didn't have the space for one), then I would have done the same thing you did and gotten rid of him to someone else. Some gamedogs are not meant for children, or being domesticated; they are meant to be out in the country and used for one thing only. But those are not my favorite kinds of dog either.





At scary: you're right, some are like that(GreenEyes) and some are smart enough to know what their owners expect of them. That's the reason why I get rid of the ones I can't control and keep the ones that meet my expectations. Some people are so stupid that they think all dogs will revert back to their animal instinct, when all they have to do is teach them with a piece of treat.

Just because you "can't control" a dog doesn't make that dog "stupid"; oftentimes, especially with bulldogs, it can mean the dog simply is not tractable. There is a big difference between tractability and intelligence, which you clearly don't understand, so I will try to explain it.

To illustrate the difference I am talking about, collies are typically known to be "tractable" while coondogs typically are not. Collies have to obey hand signals and be very responsive to their owner's directions, and consequently they need to rely on man to do their best jobs. Coon dogs, on the other hand, have to "think on their own" and get out there and find something, with little or no help from man, but have to rely on their instincts.

Because of the differing selection standards used to create these different breed types, many people mistakenly believe that collies are "smart" because they're so obedient (tractable), and that coondogs are "stupid" because they tend not to be obedient and make poor pets. This myth (and the distinction between "tractability" and intelligence) was shattered when researchers put several collies, and several coondogs, through a series of mazes and trouble-shooting tests ... and almost all the collies failed to get out of their mazes and navigate the tests ... relying only on their own instincts/judgment ... while virtually every coondog navigated the challenges with ease.

What does this mean? It means collies needed help while coondogs could think for themselves.
So which breed tends to be more intelligent? Depends on if you want a dog to "follow instructions" or think for itself.

Back to bulldogs. Not every bulldog is tractable. Many have exceptional drive, and huge egos, and dogs like this are going to do what they damned well please, and there is just nothing "you" can do about it. In fact, this utter stubbornness is often associated with some of the best dogs I myself have ever owned.

Do these dogs make good pets? No.

Does this make them "stupid"? No. It means they're not tractable (obedient). Many dogs like this have all the intelligence they need to get out of crates, windows, cages, etc., and then go do what they damned well please. In fact oftentimes these dogs prove smarter than their owners :lol: ... but I do agree that such dogs are NOT enjoyable dogs to have around in a family setting, and I wouldn't want one for that capacity either.

But out in a wide-open country setting, dogs like that will amuse themselves all day running around and working their chain.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Machobear is a complete asshole.. if you put him in a crate, he'll bark until you Let him out, if he's outside, he'll bark until you work him, he is absolutely never aggressive to anyone in my house, however, he does give too much attention to a stroller, I'm not sure he knows the differnce., that being said, he will always be either outside in a 10 x 10 kennel, or in a wire cage in the garage.

[OGDOGG]

Brick house growled at me once..and that was when I picked her up from you. Other than that she continued to growl at children and my friends that came over. I've never treated her bad not once. She was the only dog I was worried enough to take to the vet several times. That proved a lot as much as I hate going there. After I brought her back to you, several days later, you thanked me for taking good care of her.
As for the collie/coondog subject, thanks for explaining the difference between tractability and intelligence. But all I am asking for is the dogs to know-stay, come, and be quiet. That's all! If he's not smart enough to do that then I say he is not intelligent enough to learn those commands, or he don't give a shit.

[skipper]

Well, the dog was too good to get rid of, and the solution to the problem was easy: leave him alone when he's eating.

Under all other circumstances, Stormy was a stable, affectionate dog.

If I had a dog that would attack/growl at me "in general," or who was unstable, sure I would kill a dog like that too.

But to kill a normally-stable, absolute ace-caliber pit dog over his basic instincts in protecting his bone, would be overly-emotional stupidity on my part ... when all I had to do is let him enjoy his bone and not fuck with him.

Because, when speaking of respect, you also have to respect your dogs (especially the badass ones with enormous ego and drive), and you need to leave them in peace when they're eating. That is also part of what it means to "understand dogs" :idea:

Jack



I get what you mean. And I have had dogs like that myself. Probably not to the quality of Stormbringer. But good dogs that ego you are talking about. What differs my situation from yours is that i have very limited space. And i have relatives that takes care of the dogs when im away. I live by myself and i need someone to feed the dogs when im on trips. Had a male dog that would kill you if you didn't stepped away the second you would put that bowl of raw down to him. I bred him, brought him up and I knew it in my heart this was the pick of the litter. He had it all, great mouth, super strong, agile, with extreme finish. I loved that dog. when he became like a year that feeding shit started, i didn't care much about it, him being my precious one and all. When he turned 2 those food aggression started to become house aggression kennel aggression and so on. I gave him hell and it was good for a couple of weeks, then it all came back. By this time he started to become unstable around my girlfriend not only when fed. In the end I had to put him down because my family wasn't safe. And I could never leave the yard because of that dog. Now I' not comparing him to your dog since he was stable all other times. Thing is that this dog had terrified people I care for and by now they wont feed any dogs that growls because they are afraid they will get attacked. I can tell when i know its only food aggression, they can't. And this is why I will only feed dogs that are 100% stable at all times. For the peace and mind of my family and the ones that makes it possible for me to have this hobbby. I shoulld've wrote all this in my previous statement ofcourse.

[scary]

At the end of the day it comes down to the individual situation of the hound and owner. As far as saying you could teach dogs to not revert back to ALL there basic instinct would be incorrect. Because at some point they ALL will revert back to at least one basic animal instinct. Rather it be the fight or flight instinct or the instinct or when you have a bitch on the yard that's in heat all the stud can think to do is do what is hard wired in him witch is to breed the bitch. But what I am getting at is at some point rather it be from the stress of the situation or witch causes the fight or flight or if its the situation with a dog just being a dog and try's to make his way over to breed the bitch. Just to name a few. He is still reverting back to his basic animal instinct when making those decisions. So to say that you can teach a dog to stop reverting back to his animals instincts would be stupid. Maybe you could say that you could teach him to not revert back to ONE basic instinct. But not all of them.With the raw food issue. There are the select few out of the general population of dogs that can be taught not to growl or not knot up with the bitch unless the command is giving. Some instincts are easier to brake then others. But they are far and few between when dealing with dog of this performance. But it all comes down to is that individual dog in question WORTH keeping around and do you have the proper setting to keep it.

[EWO]

This is a pretty good topic. I personally have never seen any of these food possessiveness characteristics in any of my dogs. I have fed dry and raw and whole prey over the years and have never seen the difference with aggression or the desire to possess or the growling or biting. Even the high strung, high caliber dogs that were full of themselves. I have always touched and rubbed the dogs while they ate as pups and young dogs. Maybe this was a bit overkill on my part and it may or may not have factored in to me not seeing this type of aggression. I have been lucky over the years to only have one incident where one tried to lay mouth on me. I ignored the first sign. (my fault). The next sign I schooled him with a feed scoop. The next day he met me at the end of the chain with ill intent to say the least. I fed him a vitamin and he has never even acted like he wanted to bite anyone again. Good topic. EWO

[Albino Rhino]

But all I am asking for is the dogs to know-stay, come, and be quiet. That's all! If he's not smart enough to do that then I say he is not intelligent enough to learn those commands, or he don't give a shit.
All your dogs know and obey those commands? How many you feed? The only command mine know is "shut up" and that's because I'm shaking the ol red Ryder BB gun! Lol

[OGDOGG]

Yes they know those 3 commands. The first command I use on them is "stay". What they'll do is stay in their house until I clean up their area. Once it's all clean I tell them to "come". Now they could be all excited all they want. I have a small yard and all the dogs on my yard are either bred by me or I got them since they were very young. So they know what I expect of them.

[Limey Kennels]

Guys a High protien ore protien based diet THUSE make a dog agressif!!. its a known fact, in the greyhound racing world!!. there is one thing they can NOT use in that scene and that is greyhounds fighting umongst them(hensh they race with muzles on and they carry pitbull blood in them), insted of going afther the lure!!. as soon as greyhounds start fighting there careers can come to a end.. another side afect from a high protien diet is protien posion witch also reveals itself in hair los and bold sports . the so called food alergies (witch they are not) it mearly a lack of amino acids in a to high protien diet.... now the hair los and bold spots are more comon umongst dry food kibble, and lesser in raw feeding as raw meat thuse cary more amino acids to it , BUT there is a BUT to that as wel..

[CRISIS]

limey are you saying more protiene in a diet, makes a dog more aggressive???

[FrostyPaws]

Protein poison, as you call it, should only manifest itself in a dog that is already having renal dysfunction. Normal functioning kidneys, with a proper intake of water, can filter and excrete all the excess protein the dog doesn't need without any ill effects.

I've never seen a bulldog that has been a high amount of protein be anymore aggressive than it already is. I can't say the same for greyhounds as I've never seen them.

[CRISIS]

yeah i was about to say that makes about as much sense as the gun powder theory! lol

[Limey Kennels]

Protein poison, as you call it, should only manifest itself in a dog that is already having renal dysfunction. Normal functioning kidneys, with a proper intake of water, can filter and excrete all the excess protein the dog doesn't need without any ill effects.

I've never seen a bulldog that has been a high amount of protein be anymore aggressive than it already is. I can't say the same for greyhounds as I've never seen them.Actualy sins a greyhound bij nature has LESS agression it is detected more ez and reveals and shows it selfs muchs ezer then in apbt. who bij nature ARE more agreesif. and those racing greyhounds defenatly are having renal dysfunction as you call it when they race more freakwend..
they are even chekt monitord mutch more for drug use kidney/liver funktion urea/ crea hemocrit ecetera then the apbt due to its legalety.. problem with them is that they are not CONDITIONED for races. its actualy the races during the season that is there conditioning .

They pick up more speed during the season. the kidney and liver stress is ezer to see as in a apbt. as our dogs are toughfer But that thussend mean our dogs dont sufer from it. we al know that when our dogs DO show they are sick that they ofthen are in imidiat japorty .
we have had a couple who defenetly cooled douwn in the agresif departmend when we cut the protien intake.. And anybody who is feeding raw protien based diet to its pups can vouch for the agressifness in them pups!!!they are ofthen wild kats!!.... as it is a dog with lots of hybrid viger can COPE more having a high protien diet, and yes lots of water intake helps get rid of plenty waist out of the kidnyes and liver.
BUT the purer bred dog WILL suffer from it when getting older where the pressure on those kidneys and damege has been done at a younger age.
chek some of your frinds who when younger partyd like crazy and longer see them 20 years later and they look like old man!!and they live shorter its the same with apbt they loose years of there life span . a body can recopperate for a sirtin amound of time,.. Now 90% of the working apbt is on short chains and kenneld up most of its life. feeding them a high protien diet WIL have lots of presur to prosses that protien...

A kidney and liver kinda work like a sponge, and we all know that when a sponge is dirty and you put it under the tap and squeeze it a couple of times then the dirts and waist comes out!!. NOW if one of the dogs has been hunting his Kidney funktion stops. its filled up with waist iven tho a dog is pissing ofthen the water is as clear as tap water!!. its only then when a kidney starts working again that he wil pisis the yellow waist out of its system .
Many a dog that was ok and was fed protien AFTHER a show has died 1. 2 sometimes 3 weeks later, due to the kidneys and liver not being able to prosses the protien waist out of its system. Hensh older ore veteran dogs afther there careers as stud dogs need to be fed food for older dogs wich contains less protien and more carbs!. Keeping a such a stud dog very lean upto a point where the novice thinks it looks a bit creul, makes him live longer and produce longer.

Now comming back at the protien diets. iven when a dog is able to waist out the ecsesif protien. This still means that his kidneys and liver(sponge) are constandly filled to the max and ore are working mutch harder then a dog who are on a lower protien based diet... High protien should only be givven when working ore in a keep and to upgrowing pups. never when in the off season , ore living in his chain space doing F all .. here is a greyhound food link http://www.redmills.ie/ie/greyhound/advice/feeding-nutrition/ chek nr:9 at the bottom. The so called food alergys are BS its a protien poison due to lack of amino acids / water/ and to high protien in dry feeds for a dog to be able to prosses it. so in 8 out of 10 cases its mearly feeding the wrong high protien kibble , doing nothing on the chain, in combination with a lack of amino acids . also chek feeding guid at this pace where you see a mixsture of two feeds to carbo load the stayers who are on a high protien fat diet. http://www.redmills.ie/ie/greyhound/products/product/?id=538&parent=76

[R2L]

Interesting

Orijen, towt and dog lovers gold are considered a few of the best kibble brands out there, yet they all contain a high % of protein. More then a regular raw meal consists off. Would that make them a bad choice as maintenance food? I've been feeding these brand to some of my dogs. Never felt any dog showed more aggression. I wouldn't mind either but their health is important to me.

[Limey Kennels]

Interesting

Orijen, towt and dog lovers gold are considered a few of the best kibble brands out there, yet they all contain a high % of protein. More then a regular raw meal consists off. Would that make them a bad choice as maintenance food? I've been feeding these brand to some of my dogs. Never felt any dog showed more aggression. I wouldn't mind either but their health is important to me. R2L Many people make mistakes in there chooice of dogfood. Orijen comes from Canada!! the highst level contains 40% protien i belive. in canada like in the usa 80 to 90% of dogs in rural country side lives outside . we all know how ""long"" and ""cold"" the canadian winters are. those dogs there need mutch more nutrition then dogs in warmer/ hotter climats. and sins its made and based for Canada thats where the main market is the fact that they do wel overseas and everywhere els is a welcome side efect that fills there pockets. sure its made out of great ingriedienses. but do you need it when your in california ore Texas!!?? i say HELL NO.
And lets not forget dogfood is a bisenis and like the raw feeders and there websites they live on selling there products as wel. the people beliving in it make freee PR and promote the crap out of it... Doglovers gold has been tought up(they claim) in the netherlands in europe afther years and years of ecsperience!!(sales pitch) actualy bij a long time old time dogman P goumare aka P Parker (peters ch willy burger/ parkes ch boots). its being sold in te usa under license . however its produced in the UK bij the biggest dogfood producer in europe , where you can choose your food out of many many reddy for everybody to use resipies bij that company for you to private lable it !!!!. so it aint that special and as far as i know doglovers gold only resendly produces a kibble with higer protien levels..
Anyway actif dogs on the chain ore light working dogs should be on no more then 27% protien and around 17% fat. slower dogs between 20/25% protien.. hard working dogs in a keep 32%/20% fat max and lets be clear on someting .
those dog food brands are PET foods

Greyhound feeds are ""profesional dog kibble"" made to make money on performance!. in a 500.000.000 usd industrie divided over Australia/new zeeland/England/Irland and the usa . where individual dogs can race for upto 80.000/100.000 usd prize money. These companies dont cell crap, there balansed foods contains nearly everyting to protect bones muscles joints under sevear stress and give fast long energy dilivery to those massif amound of muscles they cary.
At the same time they RE invest in that scene with prize money ecetera...thing is you can sell BS only for so long!!..
Like the whole grain carb myth..It was is just another made up belive story umongst pet food brands . trying to compeat with one another and to make money. They alredy knew a long time ago that dogs with lesser hybrid vigger specialy the purer bred breeds have a problem with the lesser amounds of amino acids in the dog foods they cell ( and the barf/ raw meat diet groop took advantige of that as wel.you know 2 dogs fight over a bone and the tird dog takes it home)

so they start producing grain free ore hyper alergic ECSPENSIF feeds, wich are trown at you as a custumore while a simple additation of the right combination of amino acids takes care of those problems..
Amino acids who are more availeble in raw fress meat!! solves that problem but not the vast amounds of antibiotics and hormon levels in it wich thuse show you a fals image of a dog that looks great and is wel...

another side efect from that is that you never ever can balanse that type of diet out to get the max out of your dogs not to mention the costs and time consuming it is...
The closes the greyound dogs come to compeat with raw and ore fresh meat is when it is mixst in with there low protien kibble specialized for that perpose..wich blows away another myth that you cant mix raw with kibble...
The right thing THESE dogfood companys do is tell you to actualy MIX there dog food with hot water in order to get the same densety as raw meat !!there pallets used are very tiny and blow up to 5 times there dry size afther a 30 min soak!!!.

you wil quikly see and realize when you feed around the same ""weight Soakt"" as raw meat that the problems are solved and that you are actualy twice as cheap as feeding raw!!! ,without massif amounds of water intake, and less strain on the kidneys..and mutch lesser problems with the so called food alergies!!.. .. and defenatly small amounds of STOOL..

my son has this company he has plenty of raw and drij kibble custumors who BOTH at times have problems with both diets http://www.greenriverworkingdogsupplies.nl/ build up with my help and ecsepertize umongst others. some parts are in english chek FAQ and the dog food page (voeding) . and defenatly chek ""Performer RPM Health tonic"" ore just sirf around...Im sure there is info you can use.. anyway agression melds douwn as snow infrond of the sun!! it has as you know nothing to do with caracter ore gameness for that matter.. we could do without those 360mph crazy ass dogs that only hurt themselfs on the chain ore in there kennel. not to mention the amound of energy they spend for nothing.. at the same time your trowing money away bij feeding high protien food as it is waisted...
I prefear the laid back dogs..

[evolutionkennels]

Interesting

Orijen, towt and dog lovers gold are considered a few of the best kibble brands out there, yet they all contain a high % of protein. More then a regular raw meal consists off. Would that make them a bad choice as maintenance food? I've been feeding these brand to some of my dogs. Never felt any dog showed more aggression. I wouldn't mind either but their health is important to me.

The origin food is indeed too hard on kidneys. My dogs would drink half of their waterbucket daily. I switched to nature's variety instinct duck (lowest protein) and the water consumption was back to normal.

[R2L]

Amino acids who are more availeble in raw fress meat!! solves that problem but not the vast amounds of antibiotics and hormon levels in it wich thuse show you a fals image of a dog that looks great and is wel...

Does heating the meat(kibbles) eliminate the hormones in them?


The origin food is indeed too hard on kidneys. My dogs would drink half of their waterbucket daily. I switched to nature's variety instinct duck (lowest protein) and the water consumption was back to normal.

This rises another question, if a dog would drink more on a high protein food, why doesn't it drink at all when its being fed high protein raw? Of course there is allot of water in raw food, but not even half of what a dog would drink on kibbles. Are protein more easily processed if merged with water, like Limey Kennel wrote "soak the kibbles in warm water" ?

[evolutionkennels]

I've always soaked liable just to prevent choking.. my dogs are so greedy when it comes to eating that they choke, and Yes... meat .has 70% water

[R2L]

I have got one 44 lbs dog who eats 400 gr of raw a day a doesn't drink a drip of water. When that same dog is on kibbles he drinks 1 liter. Thats what i meant.

Now if there is one thing i learned is that you can better drink allot of water then too little since it will cause water retention.

Another thing, I recently switched all my dogs to dog lovers gold for economical reasons. One of the positive sides about it is all my dogs are properly hydrated now. 2 of them had a 2-3+ sec skin count when they were on raw and they just would not drink. I was working one in a keep at one point i was just walking 30 minutes and treadmill 25 minutes, he ate 750 gr of raw + 700 ML water and it still did not hydrate the dog. Because they drink all at once and dont drink any more after that, most of it just comes out just as quick.

[Limey Kennels]

R2L i know my spelling su.ks, but please read, it again . you wil see that when dry food is soakt that al the things your used to see your dog doing fed on raw is the same. and yes heating up the meat prossest for kibble breaks douwn the hormons and the antibiotics. wich is NOT the case when feeding raw!!!.

The douwnside of the heating up prosses of the meat used in kibble is that it also partly distrois the amino acids,wichs is where the skin and coat problems come from... wich not happens when feeding raw!!!.
Now you CAN ad amino acids to dry kibbel and soak it to get the same % of water in your dry food!!.
But you CANT get the anitibiotics and hormon levels out of the raw meat . HENS i feed the dry food kibble the way it SHOULD be done as i discribed it.. and stay away from feeding raw..
Just for you to know govermends all over the world INCLUDING the usa are dealing with a major problem in the human spiecies being almost imume to antibiotis DUE to the high levels being used in the Bio industry , wich makes up 80% of your usa and european protien base food!!.

Now our food is Kookt baked and heated up and stil we have major problem getting to much antibiotic and hormon levels in our systems !!. Can you imagion how much of that shit stacks up in our dogs when fed raw!!!??....
now unles you are 100% sure of your raw protien sours, then il say ok go for it . but i dont belive anybody with more then 4 ore 5 dogs would spend the money time and energy on mega green hippy protien raised on 100% natural foods and flafours. its simply to ecspensif ..not even old Jack is feeding that.looking at his videos.....

please do not forget that iven free roaming animals bred raised for that perpose are fed kibble themselfs in winter time!. and all the bio industri food is bassed on prossest animal waist . YEP thats right How good is that when the cow sheep chiken you ore your dogs eat is being fed of the waist protien of those animals..............And themselfs

Conclusion is. the chicken and meat you feed to your dogs are themselfs fed with prossest animal protien.!!! as with dry kibble .............

[Doc Ellis]

Limey are you saying that just adding water to kibble is going to give the same nutrition as a balanced raw meal? and if the the kibble contains meat wouldnt that meat be filled up with hormones and antbiotics?
theres no way an animal feed plant is using higher quality meat for their food than you can get from your local butcher/walmart.

[CRISIS]

this is why id like to farm MY OWN meat birds....

[Black Hand]

Limey are you saying that just adding water to kibble is going to give the same nutrition as a balanced raw meal? and if the the kibble contains meat wouldnt that meat be filled up with hormones and antbiotics?
theres no way an animal feed plant is using higher quality meat for their food than you can get from your local butcher/walmart.

he is saying the kibble just lacks the amino acids but antibiotics are baked out, while the raw meat has the amino acids but antibiotics are not baked out because it's raw.

[Limey Kennels]

he is saying the kibble just lacks the amino acids but antibiotics are baked out, while the raw meat has the amino acids but antibiotics are not baked out because it's raw.

Aczackly!! AND quality and i repeat QUALITY drij kibble is mutch more balanced then raw diet. as every pallet is the same and of the same consistensy. dont let stories fool you about Drij kibble being bad. as the minerals and vitamins are included AFTHER the heating prosses of the protien sours!!! same with the FAT sours and PRO BIOTICS.. Now dont get me wrong im not against raw diets . but to do it right for major leaque performance is a siense on its self.practicly imposible. Hens the greyhound scene use a raw protien sours mixt in with drij kibble specialy made for that perpose..
chek text below!. these problems are presend in our dogs as wel when feeding raw . BUT it wil NOT shows/reveals itself on the viseble outside as mutch as with the gryhounds . we DO have a toughfer breed.. but it thuse efects performance


FOOD HYGIENE

The other major problem to which greyhounds are commonly subjected is the consumption of “”””highlycontaminated meat”””” containing potentially pathogenic “”””Salmonella and E. coli bacterial species””””. The widespread use of 3-D (debilitated, diseased or dying) and 4-D meat (add dead to 3-D specifications) as a base for greyhound diets in the US because of economic considerations increases the bacterial challenge to the gastrointestinal, immune and hepatic systems. Greyhounds often develop bacterial diarrhoea and associated dehydration when contaminated meat with a high microbial count is fed.

There is also the risk of “”antibiotic residues”” being excreted into the urine. These residues can be detected as prohibited substances on race day in greyhounds fed meat from animals treated with “”””antibiotics and other drugs”””” prior to slaughter or death. The adoption of a “”””complete dry food diet”””” eliminates”””” these risks in greyhounds raced on a regular weekly basis.


Conclusion


Greyhounds are “”elite athletic animals”” that are subjected to “”extreme”” physical exertion during racing and the cumulative effects of environmental, metabolic and physical stress when trained and raced on a regular basis. They “”must”” be provided with a palatable, “”low bulk””, high energy-dense ration, with a medium crude protein and fat content to maintain competitive speed and stamina within set limits of body weight. An “”adequate”” intake of minerals, trace minerals, electrolytes and vitamins to correct low, imbalanced or inadequate levels in “”””””meat-based diets””””””, in particular, is “”””””essential”””””” to maintain musculo-skeletal soundness, optimum metabolic activity, strong immune status and overall health in greyhounds racing between a relatively young age of 15 months to a mature age of between 3 and 4 years.


PS DOC ELLIS most quality dog food brands are made for HUMAN consumption!! and yes they do use human standerd meat/protien sourses for that.. this has been determind in some countries bij stae ore country law. just in case some major disaster happends where people can live of off drij dog food kibbel..

[FrostyPaws]

Actualy sins a greyhound bij nature has LESS agression it is detected more ez and reveals and shows it selfs muchs ezer then in apbt. who bij nature ARE more agreesif. and those racing greyhounds defenatly are having renal dysfunction as you call it when they race more freakwend..

I'll agree with the greyhound sentiment and aggression as I don't know, but by what you're saying, more protein would still make dogs more aggressive. My dogs have never shown any higher level of aggression because their protein intake is elevated due to a keep. There may be some dogs that develop some issues with racing every weekend due to being weaker specimens and their body not being able to deal with the stress. They're not all going to have that dysfunction simply due to racing.


they are even chekt monitord mutch more for drug use kidney/liver funktion urea/ crea hemocrit ecetera then the apbt due to its legalety.. problem with them is that they are not CONDITIONED for races. its actualy the races during the season that is there conditioning .

Excess drug use in dosages too high for dogs can certainly contribute to such things. That is more likely the reason moreso than anything else aside from just a weak, genetic individual or one not properly cared for.



They pick up more speed during the season. the kidney and liver stress is ezer to see as in a apbt. as our dogs are toughfer But that thussend mean our dogs dont sufer from it. we al know that when our dogs DO show they are sick that they ofthen are in imidiat japorty .

I believe there are plenty of bulldogs that suffer from such things, but they don't do it as a whole. It's like people. Genetics, what is put into the body, etc all play a part.



BUT the purer bred dog WILL suffer from it when getting older where the pressure on those kidneys and damege has been done at a younger age.

Could be a dog with a weak genetic profile. Not ALL purer bred dogs will suffer from such things especially due to protein. As body systems get older, the function with less efficiency so you will always see some decline in older animals/dogs as opposed to when they were younger.



chek some of your frinds who when younger partyd like crazy and longer see them 20 years later and they look like old man!!and they live shorter its the same with apbt they loose years of there life span . a body can recopperate for a sirtin amound of time,.. Now 90% of the working apbt is on short chains and kenneld up most of its life. feeding them a high protien diet WIL have lots of presur to prosses that protien...

LOL!! My friends that look like that ingested insane amount of drugs, alcohol, up all hours of the night doing who knows what with who knows. Couple all of that with a general disregard for their own well being, and you get friends that look that way in 20 years. I do agree that most dogs that are lounging about don't need to be fed high protein diets. They could stand with lower protein and higher fat, then everyone would be happy. Unfortunately for kibble feeders, no company has saw fit to create that kind of dog food as of yet.


A kidney and liver kinda work like a sponge, and we all know that when a sponge is dirty and you put it under the tap and squeeze it a couple of times then the dirts and waist comes out!!. NOW if one of the dogs has been hunting his Kidney funktion stops. its filled up with waist iven tho a dog is pissing ofthen the water is as clear as tap water!!. its only then when a kidney starts working again that he wil pisis the yellow waist out of its system .

The kidney function stops due to the waste but not quite as you describe. The function stops from the tubules being clogged with myoglobin so it CAN'T function. Blood flow is shunted to the vital organs, if bad enough, so the kidneys become ischemic. You couple that with the fact that a great majority of people aren't giving their dogs IV fluids after, which serves a two-fold purpose, and you have a dead dog. IV fluids expand the fluid circulating through the dog AND they remove the myoglobin from the tubules, allowing the kidneys to do their job if it hasn't been too late due to owner ignorance.


dogs need to be fed food for older dogs wich contains less protien and more carbs!. Keeping a such a stud dog very lean upto a point where the novice thinks it looks a bit creul, makes him live longer and produce longer.

Less protein, minimal carbs, more fat!!


High protien should only be givven when working ore in a keep and to upgrowing pups. never when in the off season , ore living in his chain space doing F all

Agreed!

[FrostyPaws]

Just for you to know govermends all over the world INCLUDING the usa are dealing with a major problem in the human spiecies being almost imume to antibiotis DUE to the high levels being used in the Bio industry

This isn't true. The human species and a lot of the virus and bacteria have mutated due to US, as a species, throwing Abx at problems that didn't really need Abx. So now you have Abx resistant strains of all kind of things due to that fact. You couple that with people not taking the prescribed Abx as indicated, and you just compound that problem two fold. The Abx and hormones in some meats are certainly to blame for some things, but almost all the blame falls on our shoulders not the industries.

[tasoschatz]

It is the first time I hear that heat treatment can destroy aminoacids, to brake aminoacid chains and give a faster absorved protein yes, but to completely destroy aminos? then we would have nitrogen fumes all over the production line, wouldn't we?

[Black Hand]

Aczackly!! AND quality and i repeat QUALITY drij kibble is mutch more balanced then raw diet. as every pallet is the same and of the same consistensy. dont let stories fool you about Drij kibble being bad. as the minerals and vitamins are included AFTHER the heating prosses of the protien sours!!! same with the FAT sours and PRO BIOTICS.. Now dont get me wrong im not against raw diets . but to do it right for major leaque performance is a siense on its self.practicly imposible. Hens the greyhound scene use a raw protien sours mixt in with drij kibble specialy made for that perpose..
chek text below!. these problems are presend in our dogs as wel when feeding raw . BUT it wil NOT shows/reveals itself on the viseble outside as mutch as with the gryhounds . we DO have a toughfer breed.. but it thuse efects performance


FOOD HYGIENE

The other major problem to which greyhounds are commonly subjected is the consumption of “”””highlycontaminated meat”””” containing potentially pathogenic “”””Salmonella and E. coli bacterial species””””. The widespread use of 3-D (debilitated, diseased or dying) and 4-D meat (add dead to 3-D specifications) as a base for greyhound diets in the US because of economic considerations increases the bacterial challenge to the gastrointestinal, immune and hepatic systems. Greyhounds often develop bacterial diarrhoea and associated dehydration when contaminated meat with a high microbial count is fed.

There is also the risk of “”antibiotic residues”” being excreted into the urine. These residues can be detected as prohibited substances on race day in greyhounds fed meat from animals treated with “”””antibiotics and other drugs”””” prior to slaughter or death. The adoption of a “”””complete dry food diet”””” eliminates”””” these risks in greyhounds raced on a regular weekly basis.


Conclusion


Greyhounds are “”elite athletic animals”” that are subjected to “”extreme”” physical exertion during racing and the cumulative effects of environmental, metabolic and physical stress when trained and raced on a regular basis. They “”must”” be provided with a palatable, “”low bulk””, high energy-dense ration, with a medium crude protein and fat content to maintain competitive speed and stamina within set limits of body weight. An “”adequate”” intake of minerals, trace minerals, electrolytes and vitamins to correct low, imbalanced or inadequate levels in “”””””meat-based diets””””””, in particular, is “”””””essential”””””” to maintain musculo-skeletal soundness, optimum metabolic activity, strong immune status and overall health in greyhounds racing between a relatively young age of 15 months to a mature age of between 3 and 4 years.


PS DOC ELLIS most quality dog food brands are made for HUMAN consumption!! and yes they do use human standerd meat/protien sourses for that.. this has been determind in some countries bij stae ore country law. just in case some major disaster happends where people can live of off drij dog food kibbel..

those dogs are probably getting sick cuz they are being fed 4-D meat sold to kennels for cheap not exactly the same quality of meat we are buying at the grocery store.

[Black Hand]

some of them greyhound guys have so many dogs, they feed 4-D meat cuz it's cheap and not really caring if the animal before was an animal that had all kindsa vaccinations, died of disease and was previously medicated, etc.

[Limey Kennels]

Guys FWIW.
im not going to debate ore try to convert people. ore get side trackt over minor diferenses ore imperfections in my layout. . i just simply put it as i see it and the way i have been educated as a dogman and tru the profesional greyhound racing frinds who i have.. these boys dont partisiopate in the minors. these guys dont feed crap, and feed human grade meat in there kibble diets . there are plenty of aczamples every week every day everywhere. where people suffer ore died from infected HUMAN grade meats.....""when cookt""
not to mention the BSE and crutsfeld jacob deseases coming from heuman grade meats..often diognosed as parkson diseas!!!!!!! .
Today there isend a greyhound in the majors running on meat alone diet wich takes the bacon home . that counts for someting
Do with the info wat you like fill in your own teories ore toughts about it. fact is these points are facts.. you can twist and turn around it come up with all sorts of teories to prove other wize, But we all know that in teory we can hang a elephant over clif holding on on a single leaf of gras!! ..
i see it as a stimulanse for others to debate, and show that raw feeding ISSEND better then the myth that is created bij those who only read and talk and feed on the chain and advice there belives from there point of view only . and set aside the stuff they simply dont know ore ignore.. funny is that nearly all the old timers in the past claim that with the coming of the quality drij food kibble companies, the dogs the sport and performace took a quantem leap forward. and these guys where the gods of composing raw meat diets for a long time . befor some of us where even born .....

[Officially Retired]

R2L i know my spelling su.ks, but please read, it again . you wil see that when dry food is soakt that al the things your used to see your dog doing fed on raw is the same. and yes heating up the meat prossest for kibble breaks douwn the hormons and the antibiotics. wich is NOT the case when feeding raw!!!.
The douwnside of the heating up prosses of the meat used in kibble is that it also partly distrois the amino acids,wichs is where the skin and coat problems come from... wich not happens when feeding raw!!!.
Now you CAN ad amino acids to dry kibbel and soak it to get the same % of water in your dry food!!.
But you CANT get the anitibiotics and hormon levels out of the raw meat . HENS i feed the dry food kibble the way it SHOULD be done as i discribed it.. and stay away from feeding raw..
Just for you to know govermends all over the world INCLUDING the usa are dealing with a major problem in the human spiecies being almost imume to antibiotis DUE to the high levels being used in the Bio industry , wich makes up 80% of your usa and european protien base food!!.
Now our food is Kookt baked and heated up and stil we have major problem getting to much antibiotic and hormon levels in our systems !!. Can you imagion how much of that shit stacks up in our dogs when fed raw!!!??....
now unles you are 100% sure of your raw protien sours, then il say ok go for it . but i dont belive anybody with more then 4 ore 5 dogs would spend the money time and energy on mega green hippy protien raised on 100% natural foods and flafours. its simply to ecspensif ..not even old Jack is feeding that.looking at his videos.....
please do not forget that iven free roaming animals bred raised for that perpose are fed kibble themselfs in winter time!. and all the bio industri food is bassed on prossest animal waist . YEP thats right How good is that when the cow sheep chiken you ore your dogs eat is being fed of the waist protien of those animals..............And themselfs
Conclusion is. the chicken and meat you feed to your dogs are themselfs fed with prossest animal protien.!!! as with dry kibble .............


This is laughable.

The two biggest components of protein in muscle meat are 1) water and 2) amino acids.

The very fact that kibble LACKS the amino acids and water of raw muscle meat is prima facie *proof* that it is an inferior protein source to raw meat :lol:

And then to sit here and say, "Just add water and add back amino acids back to your kibble," to make it "as good as" raw is almost insane. First of all, adding water and amino acids back to kibble is NOT the same as natural raw meat ... and second of all, trying to do something "extra" with the kibble is an admission in-and-of-itself that it is LACKING as a food source ... again, precisely because the two most important constituents of protein (amino acids and water) have been destroyed in the kibbling process.

Hell, even if you could magically add "this and that" to kibble to make it "as good as raw" again, WHY THE FOGGG should anyone go through all of that bullshit, when they can just feed raw to begin with? :lol: :embarrassed:

If you're worried about bacteria, just take a big cauldron and boil the chicken for a bit. Or feed it frozen. Bacteria problem solved, and you will still be feeding a helluva lot better than kibble :idea:

Jack

[R2L]

That is very true Jack, but you forget one part of what he wrote about. That's the steroids and antibiotics being baked out in kibbles?

You have been feeding and raising dogs on raw for a long time, did you ever notice anything negative what could have been caused by this?

Maybe its a little paranoia from my side because i raised just 1 dog completely on raw and he is the most muscled and strongest of all my dogs. Though he is also the one who runs hot the fastest.

[Limey Kennels]

Jack one thing is very clear im not laufebel nor do i consider you that!!..
And as i stated, In my posts its PARTLY distroid and the dogs who geneticly CANT prosses it due to a lack of amino assids are dogs that have a problem!!they simplye need MORE amino acids. wich is 1 on every 100 dogs!!??..
and yes if water is used to soak KIBBLE as the beter brands advice (where the PET food brands only advice to have SUFFISIEND water availeble) then the same densety as raw meat has been reachst between 60 and 75%.
IF you partily boil/ KOOK the meat ore slightly as you said, then your doing the same thing as FOOD kibble companyes!! who kook there protien sours( not al of them there are companies that use diferend methods where they preserve the amino acids but thats not alot of them.).. being it compleatly.

And the biggest worries arend the bacteria problem ,its the antibiotics and hormon levels being used to make money and that other shit in the meat. that are the most dangeres..not to mention the inconsistensy of a wel balansed diet for fastlane performance.
Coming back at prossest protien voor dogs and lets used the human(same with greyhounds as they use nearly the same suplemends) aczample then we must realize that a fresh diet for major atleaths ranging from olympick rowers to body builders, that they CANT eat enoughf BULK to provied there systems with the nutrition they need.without puting to much strain on there systems ....
Prossest protien powder vitamins ecetera everyting they need wil make them able to compeat.. to get the most out of there LOW bulk PRE diguested energy sourses, not to mention. the doping that must be used when they are lacking natural talend and hybrid viger.

And make no mistake my son has plenty of raw feeders with the same ore other problems! ore who are short on minerals ore get to many ..!especialy the ones who feed lots of chiken in there raw diets they lack lots of iron, wich is more availeble in red meat .
chek the text douwn below. do a simpel Google sirtch and read the stuff plenty a raw feeder is evoing to read!! ore refusing to belive.
Can put about 20/50 other links in there ranging from beef to whatever raw protien sours your feeding. Look the tought about it is galand and good. but meat products today need to be kookt baked ore heated up in some form to kill of all the CRAP that is put in there bij the industry that provide us with it. wich brings me to the folowing conclusion i RATHER AD ecstra amino acids to my drij kibble for dogs THAT need it. knowing that al that shit that has been put into the raw meats we buy is killed of . being sure there is a 80% less chanse of efecting my dogs in the long runn and generations to come!!. as that crap WILL have a influense on there genetic make up.. Hensh dogs kats mice are used in ecsperiments as there generations follow up 7 times a year in mice teorecticly twice a year in kats and dogs .. Now im sure about you and myself being in there for the long runn, as we alredy proven to. and yes there is shit in drij kibbleas wellike artifisial flaufores and presirvers however just like in QUALITY meats products sirved in michelin * quality resturants your paying TOP$$ for those meat products ( why the hell you thing rich people live longer +- 10 years longer, simply because they can aford the good stuf!!). as what you pay for natural white E being used to presirve the drij dog food kibble... NOW i know out of ecspeariense that every single one of the raw feeders on this forum buys the cheapest CRAP to feed there dogs raw including you Jack, As most do with crap produced drij kibble.. but at least that crap hase been kookt to pieces .

You realy whant to do your dogs good and hang on to the raw feeding . go live in the woods buy a great hunting rifle and shoot your own wild roaming buffelow/ Bison dear moose ore whatever skin those beasts proses the meat in portiens ad natural non genetic enhansed veggies wich are NOT sprayd with toxic poison to kill of parasites. freeze al that stuf wel below - 30* for weeks to kill of the worms parasites. and then feed your dogs raw. then i do belive that your doing what YOU think is better for our animals.. If not then please kook the crap out of everyting and ad the good stuf sfther kooking it! that is killed of during that prosses . and your better of.. (We cant even Eat a fricking Appel without washing it to get the poision of thats been used) but waight did i just discribed a premedium qualitij dry kibble!!

(NaturalNews) After years of sweeping the issue under the rug and hoping no one would notice, the FDA has now finally admitted that chicken meat sold in the USA contains arsenic, a cancer-causing toxic chemical that's fatal in high doses. But the real story is where this arsenic comes from: It's added to the chicken feed on purpose!

Even worse, the FDA says its own research shows that the arsenic added to the chicken feed ends up in the chicken meat where it is consumed by humans. So for the last sixty years, American consumers who eat conventional chicken have been swallowing arsenic, a known cancer-causing chemical.

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032659_arsenic_chicken.html#ixzz2JdPHSa6y

FDA finally admits chicken meat contains cancer-causing arsenic (but keep eating it, yo!)

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032659_arsenic_chicken.html#ixzz2JdOxmlhH


Until this new study, both the poultry industry and the FDA denied that arsenic fed to chickens ended up in their meat. The fairytale excuse story we've all been fed for sixty years is that "the arsenic is excreted in the chicken feces." There's no scientific basis for making such a claim... it's just what the poultry industry wanted everybody to believe.

But now the evidence is so undeniable that the manufacturer of the chicken feed product known as Roxarsone has decided to pull the product off the shelves (http://www.grist.org/food-safety/2011-06-08-fda-admits-supermarket-ch...). And what's the name of this manufacturer that has been putting arsenic in the chicken feed for all these years? Pfizer, of course -- the very same company that makes vaccines containing chemical adjuvants that are injected into children.

Technically, the company making the Roxarsone chicken feed is a subsidiary of Pfizer, called Alpharma LLC. Even though Alpharma now has agreed to pull this toxic feed chemical off the shelves in the United States, it says it won't necessarily remove it from feed products in other countries unless it is forced by regulators to do so. As reported by AP:

"Scott Brown of Pfizer Animal Health's Veterinary Medicine Research and Development division said the company also sells the ingredient in about a dozen other countries. He said Pfizer is reaching out to regulatory authorities in those countries and will decide whether to sell it on an individual basis." (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2011-06-08-fda-chicken-...)


Arsenic? Eat more!
But even as its arsenic-containing product is pulled off the shelves, the FDA continues its campaign of denial, claiming arsenic in chickens is at such a low level that it's still safe to eat. This is even as the FDA says arsenic is a carcinogen, meaning it increases the risk of cancer.

The National Chicken Council agrees with the FDA. In a statement issued in response to the news that Roxarsone would be pulled from feed store shelves, it stated, "Chicken is safe to eat" even while admitting arsenic was used in many flocks grown and sold as chicken meat in the United States.

What's astonishing about all this is that the FDA tells consumers it's safe to eat cancer-causing arsenic but it's dangerous to drink elderberry juice! The FDA recently conducted an armed raid in an elderberry juice manufacturer, accusing it of the "crime" of selling "unapproved drugs." (http://www.naturalnews.com/032631_elderberry_juice_FDA_raid.html) Which drugs would those be? The elderberry juice, explains the FDA. You see, the elderberry juice magically becomes a "drug" if you tell people how it can help support good health.

The FDA has also gone after dozens of other companies for selling natural herbal products or nutritional products that enhance and support health. Plus, it's waging a war on raw milk which it says is dangerous. So now in America, we have a food and drug regulatory agency that says it's okay to eat arsenic, but dangerous to drink elderberry juice or raw milk.

Eat more poison, in other words, but don't consume any healing foods. That's the FDA, killing off Americans one meal at a time while protecting the profits of the very companies that are poisoning us with their deadly ingredients.

Oh, by the way, here's another sweet little disturbing fact you probably didn't know about hamburgers and conventional beef: Chicken litter containing arsenic is fed to cows in factory beef operations. So the arsenic that's pooped out by the chickens gets consumed and concentrated in the tissues of cows, which is then ground into hamburger to be consumed by the clueless masses who don't even know they're eating second-hand chicken sh*t. (http://www.naturalnews.com/027414_chicken_disease_cows.html)

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/032659_arsenic_chicken.html#ixzz2JdPAhzOI

[Limey Kennels]

That is very true Jack, but you forget one part of what he wrote about. That's the steroids and antibiotics being baked out in kibbles?

You have been feeding and raising dogs on raw for a long time, did you ever notice anything negative what could have been caused by this?

Maybe its a little paranoia from my side because i raised just 1 dog completely on raw and he is the most muscled and strongest of all my dogs. Though he is also the one who runs hot the fastest. R2L Lack of carb /fats and not the right balansed diet consirning minerals vitamins wich you need in order to compeat... Dogs fed om raw look spot on when on the chain. caried alot due to the antibiotics and hormone levels..THEY umongst cattle show you a wrong sense /state of health. but as soon as you realy put presure on them al the imbalanse risses to the sirfes. Hesnh the greyhound people only used raw meat as a protien sours the drij kibbel contens/ingriedienses thuse the rest

[R2L]

I think iv been feeding a good balanced complete raw feed to the dog. Complete raw feed companies can balance out their meals just as fine as dry feed producers can. If you dont know exactly what you;re doing you should not be putting together your own meal. My only concern are the hormones in them, nobody wants to their do be over muscled or running hot fast.

[Limey Kennels]

Question WHO controls the raw food companies!?? and ore what is in it. heard several sourses claim its the same stuf they use to make drij kibble of. justy un prossest!!. .. so it is balansed but not prossest to distoi al the crap in it!?!... these companies are ofthen sister companies of regulair drij dogfood companies that jump on the band wagon ,on the sins a couple of years raw feed populairety myth.. its all bisenis pure for the almighty $$... and yes its the same with a crap drij food kibble market where ofthen the bags costs more then what is used inside of them bags. belive me your beter of feeding quality kibble.... cheaper as wel IF you fallow the rulles..

[tasoschatz]

Food industry recycles everything, chicken raise and use including all byproducts is filthy at least, but this is the industry standard about every chiken product, well known and checked by authorities, chickens in cages are fed their own shit, globaly known since ever.
Under no circumstances I will accept that kibble producers, that obviously have at best the same level control as human grade products, lower for me, produce better products than those for human consumption. So, for me, remains to see if really the heat/ cook/ drying procedure used to make kibble lowers significantly hormones and antibiotics levels in the final product compared to raw materials. I mean that, I am not sarcastic, I do not know if this really happens and I would like to know it, even if it is for plain home cooking.
I will not go into the grains used, possibly gmo's etc. Not even will I go into the dl form of aminos used in animals industry compared to the l form for humans.
Kibble mentions a protein proportion of the product or grams or whatever, this includes the grains' protein, maybe they try to improve the lower quality of this protein part by adding aminos, could this be a case? I do not know.
Animal protein is the sum of the individual aminos contained in meat. These aminos exist as individual ones but mostly in chains from two - three aminos to many more. These peptides have different absorption rates and have different functions and benefits. Heat / cooking and every other procedure breaks the amino bonds and as a result you get smaller peptides and more free aminos. This is not nesecarely a good thing, it can produce a lower quality product, faster absorption doesn't equate into better use. Because of these facts, the addition of extra aminos doesn't guarantee real improvement always, again assuming that aminos are destroyed, not just bonds between aminos.
Animals are getting, according to my knowledge, injectable hormones, these products even if they are still in existence in their muscles or fat can not be absorped by the stomach route. It is the estrogens that might build in the animal body, from supplementation of other hormones, as a balance mechanism reaction, that cause problems to humans.
Bodybuilders and athletes supplement on many nutrients including protein, but their primary source is natural food. APBT campaigners do not want dogs with extra muscle, do they? they want the best performing muscle at the lowest possible mass. Olympic athletes do use free form aminos in an effort to immitate hormones action, most of them they do injectable. If you would visit an olympic athlete bedroom you would see an environment more complicated than a pharmacy store, and everything legal, if someone into dogs want to follow these protocols then he/she should search around and find them. Also keep in mind that they are interested in the current performance and not in the long term well beeing. Which brings me to my other point.
How many dogmen are interested if their working dogs will live longer than lets say 8-9 whatever? As long as they are done with shows and they get whatever breedings they want from them, do they have reasons to keep them longer? I am a pet owner and I want my dog to live with me for more than 15 years and in good health, but this is me, people with 10, 20 I do not know how many dogs, do they really want them bad to live for as long as possible after a certain age? Are they willing to spend the extra money, time and effort an elderly dog needs? What I try to say is not that I am a saint while others are cold hearted people, just that men of tradition expect certain things from a dog during his lifetrime and after that, by beeing pure professionals, they are ok to be over with it. So, if you are right about the poisons contained into raw feeeding compared to kibble, an opinion by which I do not agree at least for now, does it really offer an advantage to the "pro's"?

[Officially Retired]

That is very true Jack, but you forget one part of what he wrote about. That's the steroids and antibiotics being baked out in kibbles?
You have been feeding and raising dogs on raw for a long time, did you ever notice anything negative what could have been caused by this?
Maybe its a little paranoia from my side because i raised just 1 dog completely on raw and he is the most muscled and strongest of all my dogs. Though he is also the one who runs hot the fastest.


You can easily buy chicken, etc. without steroids in them.

As for your 1 dog you feed raw, his being short-winded is genetic and has nothing to do with being fed raw (unless you're mis-feeding or leaving something out).

I have fed 60-80 dogs raw, and (like any other yard) some were short-winded and some were long-winded.

Yet ALL OF THEM looked better being fed raw than they did being fed kibble, and (as a whole) they ALL lived longer and stayed looking better longer than did their ancestors whom I fed kibble :idea:

[Officially Retired]

Jack one thing is very clear im not laufebel nor do i consider you that!!..
And as i stated, In my posts its PARTLY distroid and the dogs who geneticly CANT prosses it due to a lack of amino assids are dogs that have a problem!!they simplye need MORE amino acids. wich is 1 on every 100 dogs!!??..
and yes if water is used to soak KIBBLE as the beter brands advice (where the PET food brands only advice to have SUFFISIEND water availeble) then the same densety as raw meat has been reachst between 60 and 75%.
IF you partily boil/ KOOK the meat ore slightly as you said, then your doing the same thing as FOOD kibble companyes!! who kook there protien sours( not al of them there are companies that use diferend methods where they preserve the amino acids but thats not alot of them.).. being it compleatly.


My friend, I was not calling "you" laughable, I was calling the idea that kibble is equal to raw flesh laughable ... as well as the idea that "soaking" raw kibble in water, and then adding-back amino acids, will make it "equal" again to raw flesh. It will not.

Your second statement is also false, namely that lightly-cooking meat (while still leaving it MOIST and with most of the amino acids/nutrients intact) is "the same" as cooking meat down to being a bone-dry pellet. It is not the same at all.

To help illustrate the tremendous difference in quality as a food, between kibble and raw (or even lightly-cooked) flesh, all you have to do is consider the fact that you can leave "kibble" in a bag, at room temperature, FOR MONTHS and it will not spoil. Have you asked yourself "why" kibble can be left at room temperature for months? Well, the answer is there is nothing nutritionally valuable left in it, that's why! Look up the term "Biological Availability." The biological availability of any food essentially means its ability to be broken down and digested by the animal that's eating it. The very fact that kibble can just sit there, and sit there, and sit there, and NOT be broken down by molds, bacteria, etc. ... and WILL NOT ROT ... indicates it has almost ZERO biological availability. That is also why dogs shit so much when they eat kibble: most of it is not fully digested.

By contrast, throw a piece of raw chicken (or even cooked chicken) into a paper bag, at room temperature, and IMMEDIATELY it will start rotting and decomposing. In less than one day, your house will stink like death and flies will be everywhere. Why? Because raw (and even lightly-cooked) chicken are extremely biologically available to organisms, which is why they are so much more easily-digested by our dogs, and is also why dogs shit so much less stool when they eat raw: they are able to digest most of it :idea:

Jack

[Jon P. Lebron]

I've had dogs that where fed only kibble and thay lived up to 12-13 years. I've had dogs fed only on scraps and they lived up to 12-13 years. I've had dogs fed on both kibble and table scraps who also lived up to 12-13 years. As a matter of fact my dad has a Pit I left with him when I moved to the states that is going to be 12 years old and she has been fed kibble and table scraps all her life. So from my experience I can say that a dog can live to an old age on kibble or table scraps.

Right now I am feeding my dog raw, this is the first time I have ever fed a dog only raw, he is 10 months ,so I can't say anything about the benefits about feeding raw in the long run. What I can say is that I have never had a dog with such a healthy, shiny and smooth coat I mean ever. Every other dog I have owned has had a good looking coat but not as smooth or shiny and if I'm not mistaken a dogs coat has to do a lot with it's health. All the other dogs that I have owned, their coats where harsh and dry, some will say your dog is still young but thats the thing I have been feeding him raw only for a few weeks and before that it was only kibble and now his coat is way better than a few weeks ago and none of the other dogs I have owned have had a coat so healthy at this same age.

Another thing is the dogs that where fed only kibble and scraps had bad farting issues and their stool stank and they where big pasty stools, even my current dog had this issues yet in this few weeks of feeding only raw, this issues have gone completely, I mean he does not fart at all and his stool is small and hard, also his water consumption is way less.

This to me is an indication of better nutrition, you see when I moved to the states I was 220 pounds and I am only 5'6", the reason for this bad nutrition fast food and junk food. I started to loose weight and got involved in MMA, I started to eat right lots of veggies, fruits and lean meats, I ate my veggies raw not even steamed, the first thing I noticed, I went to the restroom way less and my stool was firm and smaller, compared to when I was eating all that junk food my stool was the same as a dogs when fed only kibble, also I hardly farted when I was eating correct, this might be grouse but from a personal experience I can say that raw seems to be way better than kibble, but as I said before I have had dogs live to an old age fed only on kibble, so if a dog dies at 8 or 9 years of age be it that it was fed only raw or only kibble it doesn't mean that, that was the reason it died so young.

So if my stool was pasty and stank when I was eating junk food and it didn't when I was eating correct and a dogs stool is pasty and stinks when fed only kibble but it doesn't when fed only raw, I have to say that feeding kibble is the equivalent of a human eating junk food, while feeding raw is the equivalent of a human eating correctly.

Also it is possible to get meats from animals that have no hormones, preservatives or antibiotics in them (this where the type of meats I use to eat) just go to a Health Food Store, yes they cost a lot and it would be to much for a person who has 10-20 dogs, fuck it even cost a lot for people who only have one or two dogs. Yes the meats at a,regular supermarket have many thing in them, but I ask don't we eat this meats so whats the big problem with feeding your dog this meats, if we eat them, heck even cooking this meats doesn't take away all of the stuff thats in them. So I don't see any problem with feeding dogs this meats.

R2L why don't you feed that dog only kibble for a month and work him out to see if he doesn't get hot as quickly.

Jon

[Limey Kennels]

Ok Jack .
Bacteria in infected meat thus not only live on the outside!!. many many people(including dogs and yes theye system is way stronger then ours is) have died of not properly kookt ore baket meats sours!!.
iventho the meat LOOKT to be kookt true and true on the inside . hens kooking it very wel is the only way to disreguard the bactiria anti biotics hormons. Another point where proove is shown where OUR gut bacteria hase been distroid is the ALARMING increased nrs of colan and stomage CANSER umongst man. due to al the added antibiotics hormons and as you could read in the text above arcenic in meat and chicken... MIND you GOOD healty proper meat will not give you canser its the fricking Bio industry that thuse that!!..
have you even used Yakult!!. if so then you most defenaty notised the good solid diguested stool a day ore two later that come out of you. Thats due to the 6.5 billion good gut bacteria from 1 little bottle to help diguest and break douwn the right nutrition needed for our bodies.. this to is proof we have a problem with antibiotics EVEN in our KOOKt meat not to mention in raw meat..,, as all the good gut bacteria is killed of .

Jack if you belive you could can buy bio industrie free chicken everywhere for everybody you wil find out that its not ez not to mention the ecspense ...
and please do NOT belive what they claim on the etikets ,where they say it is, they are ALWAYS 3 stept behind on what they CLAIM the product is, and make you belive is healthy meat ore chicken for that matter .

IF the same amound of chickens that are normally kenneld/ boxst up and stackt on top of eachother been put im those major big barns then they alredy called them free roaming chickes!!!!!. but sins there are no chicken wirere cages are in between them and they are not stackt on top of eathoder its bij law alouwd to call them free roaming. its still the same crap animal being fed the same shit. bisenis is bisenis. been involved to mutch in the meat industrie myself to know that.
altho i like my meat, i sure as hell try to use it as little as posible and kook the crap out of it. ore buy the good stuff from time to time.
Do you even remember how a real live free roaming chicken tasts like wich we got 40 years ago,??? .

insted we get those silly putty white gentic manipulated white meat they claim is chicken meat!!??.
where those chickens produce nearly1 1/2 to 2 lbs of chicken brests within 6 weeks.........feeding the waist of other animals who on there own are pumpt full with crap... i seen your videos where the costs are laid out . no way in hell you get and feed the right stuff to feed you dogs, bij cutting costs down.

Again its good when you get the REAL proper meat diet,and only for on the chain.but iven getting the right stuf is a tall order for you to do so..
and cost will rize above your head in sutch a way it isend iven funny anymore..

and to awnser your question about adding amino acids later on with kibbel hell being better. then hell yes its beter il get the protien less antibiots les hormons lees amino acids . if i ad the aminio acids i get everyting in THAT departmend that i need.. but thats personal and out of my own ecsperiense...


Tasoschats................ i cant convert now one i can mearly show the oposit side of wat is called the raw feeding health myth ... people make up there own minds .and as soon as they made there mind up . there is nothing i ore anybody els can do about it. my gospel against it, is like trying to cell canser nobody of the raw meat guys buys it..
Bij the way I like to see some wel conditiond raw meat dogs bij the way ... just to keep it in all good spirits..


Jon P lebron............. its very good to here you where able to change your life around!!. not alot of people are able to do that!!. respect im sure it wassend ez. right now im on a raw veggy mediteraniam diet myself..
I was kinda reddy to ask if people would ore could put a pickture up ona chiney healty raw fed dog . as i alredy ecsplained that its the amino asids in combination with antibiotics that thuse that . and it gives you a ""part"" fals sense of healht.
you are 100% right that you can read a great part of the health on a dog bij his looks. 3 features wil show you that from the get go shiny bricht eyes/ clear shiny coats and wet nozes . And indeed stool!.
Lets see some of these dogs.. and il show you a dog that was on raw meat and whent back to what we advised..
and il show you the rightway of feeding a dog kibble the weight of it and the weight of the waist/stool that comes out of the dog..

[R2L]

Are these the amino acids you add yourself? http://www.greenriverworkingdogsupplies.nl/health-tonic

It says 15 ml once or twice a day for 1 adult dog. lets say 50-60 days for a 1 liter 33 euro bottle. Costs you 100 euro a month for 5 dogs. Not what i call cheap feeding.

[tasoschatz]

Limey, I have no intention to convert anybody, I just try through my writing to create opportunities for my self to gather more info, then it is up to me and my, whatever it is, education backround to evaluate this info and use it or not. This is why I put my thoughts like this, if I was to support my prefference on raw feeding I would use different kind of writing, I just preffer to offer you some "bait" to try to gather what I need to take your views more seriously and judge them as such. If I ask and you answer, I will always have a chance to get some knowledge, if I only talk then there is a strong chance I will make an ass of my self. You see, you are an old dogman and known in the circles, so, although I have a feeling that 99% of the members in here disagree with you, you get answers in a respectfull way. I feel if I was posting a thread with views like yours, I would get different attitude.

[Limey Kennels]

R2L those are greyhound dosses for dogs in the 35 kilo/ 77 lbs range. and if a state of peak health has been reached 1/3 of the dose is suffisiend. for bulldogs 1 table/soup spoon is more then enoughf and later 1 tea spoon!!. And it thuse its job on crap food to!... its not meant(altho you can use it) for dogs that are perfectly healthy on the chain. Its ment for pregnand biches dogs that do sufferfrom skin/ coat problems. and ore dogs that are in training/ keep. a 5 to 7 ml per dog is more then enoughf... Tasochatz if i gave you the wrong impression that my words where ment for you trying to convert anybody then i can only bliam my spelling and wrong chooice of words as i was talking about myself.. if 99% of the people disagree with me then that is fine. however i hope that time wil prove them otherwize.
Anyway lets see them fantastick looking conditioned raw meat dogs!!.. take it away..

[SGC]

Lots of interesting info on this thread.…

I did not know about the arsenic fed to chickens, and thus going down all thru the food chain even to the point of the beef cattle feed the chicken poop full of arsenic resulting in arsenic in beef too. Seems no grocery store meats are safe these days.

There is also a connection between the antibiotics in grocery store chicken and human bladder infections, here are a few links –

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/antibiotics-chickens-linked-bladder-infections-women-article-1.1112914

http://grist.org/news/researchers-find-link-between-drug-resistant-bladder-infections-and-poultry-antibiotics/

http://grist.org/factory-farms/finally-a-smoking-gun-connecting-livestock-antibiotics-and-superbugs/

It also says that 80% of the antibiotics in the US are used in livestock. No wonder the Japanese banned the import of US beef.

Does anyone have info on if cooking this meat removes some of the antibiotics/hormones? I would not think that would take out arsenic but does it remove some of the other stuff?

But if chicken is causing bladder infections in people, certainly they are not eating raw chicken so I guess that answers my question…

So if you are feeding grocery store chicken to your dogs, how bad is it? And how different from this chicken is the chicken used in quality kibble and in pre-made raw such as the Nature’s Variety raw patties?

I have switched to eating supposedly (if you can trust the labels!) hormone free antibiotic free chicken these days and I am wondering if I should buy it for dog food too? I can get these chicken quarters for about $1.79 to $2 a pound… so not much different than quality kibble and less than pre-made raw.

[FrostyPaws]

This whole thing about arsenic is kinda funny. Arsenic is found in drinking water, in lots of vegetables, in the environment. So while the presence of arsenic in chicken could be alarming, there are not lethal doses of arsenic in chicken. If it were, folks would be falling over dead. They're not. Even if your dog is NOT getting raw chicken, it's still getting arsenic every day of it's life from drinking water. :shocked: There are higher levels of arsenic in WELL water than it is city water, so if your grandparents or even you are on well water, you're drinking more arsenic water. Arsenic is used in oil products, so anytime you're around your car, or anyone else's car that's idling, you're inhaling arsenic particles. Is arsenic a carcinogen? Yes, and you are exposed to everyday whether you want to be or not. So are all of our dogs.

If a person is concerned with a lack of vitamins/minerals, feed vegetables with the diet. In one serving size of chicken, usually 4oz, there is 6% iron. In red meat, I think the number is 10% or it exceeds it. There are plenty of other sources of dietary iron to take the place of what's lacked in chicken. There are so many ways to feed a raw diet that differs everyday to cover all the bases by simply adding vegetables or fruits with the diet.

There's a reason why a dog, that's fed a raw diet, as opposed to a kibble diet, has less stool. It's because the dog is utilizing more of the product for actual energy. Excess waste is exactly that, waste. It's product not being absorbed by the body, whether human or dog. The old timers weren't gods of composing a raw meat diet. If they were, there wouldn't have been a quantum leap forward in performance. They were men who fed the dogs what they had available. Availability and raw diet are not created equally. Kibble is convenient food for us and the dog. Convenience doesn't equate to better. The same old timers thought, and some still do, that combiotic was the best antibiotic ever created. They believe you should cut off any type of supplementation at least 7 days before the match or they will make the dog run hot. They also thought that dogs that fought for the stifle were curs due to them going away from where the action is happening. With time comes knowledge. The knowledge on nutrition today is light years ahead of what old timers new ten years ago much less 40+ years ago.


I'm not sure how dogs that are fed a raw diet can't really handle pressure when it's put on them. That makes absolutely no sense. There are people everywhere that compete with dogs fed a raw diet that handle whatever pressure comes their way. Some win, some lose, some die. It's the exact same of dogs being fed kibble. If a person doesn't have a handle on what it takes to feed a raw diet for competition that our dogs are built for, they shouldn't be feeding. That has less to do with handling pressure and more to do with knowledge deficit. The same can be said for someone feeding kibble that has no idea on what it takes. The comparison of greyhounds and bulldogs doesn't make sense for me. Greyhounds need a higher carb diet as they're running a sprint. Dogs that are being conditioned for any type of endurance/stamina event will need higher fat, then protein, then carbs. That is why people use oils and fatty meat or fat from a butcher. It's a more calorie dense diet which is what's needed in regards to dog endurance.

I fed kibble to a yard of dogs for many years. I didn't have a lot of health related issues with the dogs aside from a few here and there that didn't react well to the food. Most of the time, I could switch that dog's particular food to something else, and the trouble would be alleviated. I've had other issues when feeding kibble in regards to skin issues, and when some enzymes were added to the food, the skin issues resolved themselves. The dog's system couldn't process something in the food, and enzyme supplementation was needed. I don't have any of those issues with the raw diet. I have a lot healthier dogs than I did before. They look better; they feel better. The older dogs are more active now. I've had other issues resolve themselves simply by not feeding kibble any longer. The dogs that get worked look as they should on the chain, and they perform as they should when it's called upon them to do so. This topic will always have people that believe in kibble over raw and vice versa. We can only go with our own experiences and/or the research that some of us have done that can/does support our beliefs, whether right or wrong. :D

[Limey Kennels]

I gues everyting that needed to be said has been said in most posts, wel kind of. repeating ourselfs is sensless . i belive people have enoughf to think about and do some google sirches, to find out..
like i said earlyer
there are always 2 sides to a story . thought i show that feeding raw isend as healty as people think ore claim it is.... Now please show of raw fed conditiond dogs..

[Jon P. Lebron]

LK I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but what is the right way of feeding kibble? As I said before I have had dogs fed on kibble and they lived a long life, I just have noticed many good thing from a raw feed.

[inkdogg]

Any of u guys PERSONALLY know of anyone who has any kind of sickness due to eating hormone fed meat...

[No Quarter Kennel]

Incredibly good post. This is great stuff.

I see validity in Limey's stance, yet I can't completely agree or move to that side of the table.

My dogs have improved in every aspect after switching from kibble to raw a year ago. My old dogs look younger, all my dogs are more active and feel better, look better, their dental health is insanely better, their skin and coats are immaculate......heck, their breath is 10x better. Water consumption, stool status and ovarall appearance. Their freakin waste line is insanely smaller.

I'll tell you another thing I've noticed. I've got a couple of dogs that look to have still been evolving, in a better condition, a full year after switching. It makes sense since they were on a kibble their entire life. But I have dogs that are still transforming for the better.

Limey, as for your statement of raw appearance, giving me a "false sense of condition", the only thing I can say to that is that kibble gives me a TRUE sense of condition b/c they just do NOT look the same, feel or act the same.

The bottom line for me is just the same as with humans, myself included.
If I feel better, look better, do more than before and my quality of life is better than before, then how in the hell is what I'm doing bad? Doesn't matter to me if a guy gets up every morning and drinks a pint of gasoline. If he gets the aforementioned results.....guess what.......I TOO shall start drinking gasoline.......Hell..it's worth a try.:D

[R2L]

Dogs fed om raw look spot on when on the chain. caried alot due to the antibiotics and hormone levels..THEY umongst cattle show you a wrong sense /state of health. but as soon as you realy put presure on them al the imbalanse risses to the sirfes.

Not last time :lol:



As i mentioned earlier i just switched all my dogs from raw to dog lovers gold because it got to expensive. I know you can make feeding raw as cheap as kibble but I heard many good stories about this kibble, Jack also wrote a positive article about it so i thought id give it a shot. I've been feeding it for 5 weeks now but im far from satisfied yet. More/softer/stinkier stool, more piss in their kennels due to drinking allot. Their coat got rougher and i see allot of white dots in them (skin i supose) Also, they look skinnier although they weigh more!!! The only positive change i noticed is that 2 of my dogs who didnt hydrate themselves good enough when they were on raw, their skin bounces right back now. I will keep feeding it for 4 more weeks untill i finished my stock, then decide what to do.

[Officially Retired]

I gues everyting that needed to be said has been said in most posts, wel kind of. repeating ourselfs is sensless . i belive people have enoughf to think about and do some google sirches, to find out..
like i said earlyer
there are always 2 sides to a story . thought i show that feeding raw isend as healty as people think ore claim it is.... Now please show of raw fed conditiond dogs..


Actually, doing "Google searches" doesn't let you find out everything, precisely because there are a lot of biased articles (written by idiots) ... as well as articles who have slanted and/or hidden agendas :idea:

This may not seem relevant (yet I promise you it is), but I was an injury claims fraud investigator for over 12 years. In that capacity, I have read more doctor's reports than probably anybody in dogs (except for a practicing physician, nurse, etc.), and one thing I can tell you with 100% authority about these "reports" is that doctors can be paid $$ to say anything.

With this in mind, a lot of these "findings" you read online must be taken with a grain of salt, as you have to also consider the agenda of who the author is. Well, the same is true with "vet studies" ... consider the source and who funded the "research." In other words, if the major company Purina funded the research, then you can bet your ass that it is going to be "kibble-biased," as I have personally seen articles be.

Most "professional vets" have Science Diet on their shelves, and I can assure you that there is no "science" anywhere supporting the use of 85% of the ingredients of that garbage as optimal canine nutrition. Yet that is what at least 90% of vets suggest you buy for your dogs, which is criminal IMO.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

As i mentioned earlier i just switched all my dogs from raw to dog lovers gold because it got to expensive. I know you can make feeding raw as cheap as kibble but I heard many good stories about this kibble, Jack also wrote a positive article about it so i thought id give it a shot. I've been feeding it for 5 weeks now but im far from satisfied yet. More/softer/stinkier stool, more piss in their kennels due to drinking allot. Their coat got rougher and i see allot of white dots in them (skin i supose) Also, they look skinnier although they weigh more!!! The only positive change i noticed is that 2 of my dogs who didnt hydrate themselves good enough when they were on raw, their skin bounces right back now. I will keep feeding it for 4 more weeks untill i finished my stock, then decide what to do.


Dog Lover's gold is good "for a kibble," but you will never get anywhere near as satisfying results using it as you will raw.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I've had dogs that where fed only kibble and thay lived up to 12-13 years. I've had dogs fed only on scraps and they lived up to 12-13 years. I've had dogs fed on both kibble and table scraps who also lived up to 12-13 years. As a matter of fact my dad has a Pit I left with him when I moved to the states that is going to be 12 years old and she has been fed kibble and table scraps all her life. So from my experience I can say that a dog can live to an old age on kibble or table scraps.
Right now I am feeding my dog raw, this is the first time I have ever fed a dog only raw, he is 10 months ,so I can't say anything about the benefits about feeding raw in the long run. What I can say is that I have never had a dog with such a healthy, shiny and smooth coat I mean ever. Every other dog I have owned has had a good looking coat but not as smooth or shiny and if I'm not mistaken a dogs coat has to do a lot with it's health. All the other dogs that I have owned, their coats where harsh and dry, some will say your dog is still young but thats the thing I have been feeding him raw only for a few weeks and before that it was only kibble and now his coat is way better than a few weeks ago and none of the other dogs I have owned have had a coat so healthy at this same age.
Another thing is the dogs that where fed only kibble and scraps had bad farting issues and their stool stank and they where big pasty stools, even my current dog had this issues yet in this few weeks of feeding only raw, this issues have gone completely, I mean he does not fart at all and his stool is small and hard, also his water consumption is way less.
This to me is an indication of better nutrition, you see when I moved to the states I was 220 pounds and I am only 5'6", the reason for this bad nutrition fast food and junk food. I started to loose weight and got involved in MMA, I started to eat right lots of veggies, fruits and lean meats, I ate my veggies raw not even steamed, the first thing I noticed, I went to the restroom way less and my stool was firm and smaller, compared to when I was eating all that junk food my stool was the same as a dogs when fed only kibble, also I hardly farted when I was eating correct, this might be grouse but from a personal experience I can say that raw seems to be way better than kibble, but as I said before I have had dogs live to an old age fed only on kibble, so if a dog dies at 8 or 9 years of age be it that it was fed only raw or only kibble it doesn't mean that, that was the reason it died so young.
So if my stool was pasty and stank when I was eating junk food and it didn't when I was eating correct and a dogs stool is pasty and stinks when fed only kibble but it doesn't when fed only raw, I have to say that feeding kibble is the equivalent of a human eating junk food, while feeding raw is the equivalent of a human eating correctly.
Also it is possible to get meats from animals that have no hormones, preservatives or antibiotics in them (this where the type of meats I use to eat) just go to a Health Food Store, yes they cost a lot and it would be to much for a person who has 10-20 dogs, fuck it even cost a lot for people who only have one or two dogs. Yes the meats at a,regular supermarket have many thing in them, but I ask don't we eat this meats so whats the big problem with feeding your dog this meats, if we eat them, heck even cooking this meats doesn't take away all of the stuff thats in them. So I don't see any problem with feeding dogs this meats.
R2L why don't you feed that dog only kibble for a month and work him out to see if he doesn't get hot as quickly.
Jon

And that is pretty much all of it right there in green.

People can babble-on all they want back and forth, but the bottom line is anyone who actually feeds their dogs raw, consistently, for a significant period of time, will ALWAYS see a marked positive difference in their dogs.

Period.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Ok Jack .
Bacteria in infected meat thus not only live on the outside!!. many many people(including dogs and yes theye system is way stronger then ours is) have died of not properly kookt ore baket meats sours!!.
iventho the meat LOOKT to be kookt true and true on the inside . hens kooking it very wel is the only way to disreguard the bactiria anti biotics hormons. Another point where proove is shown where OUR gut bacteria hase been distroid is the ALARMING increased nrs of colan and stomage CANSER umongst man. due to al the added antibiotics hormons and as you could read in the text above arcenic in meat and chicken... MIND you GOOD healty proper meat will not give you canser its the fricking Bio industry that thuse that!!..
have you even used Yakult!!. if so then you most defenaty notised the good solid diguested stool a day ore two later that come out of you. Thats due to the 6.5 billion good gut bacteria from 1 little bottle to help diguest and break douwn the right nutrition needed for our bodies.. this to is proof we have a problem with antibiotics EVEN in our KOOKt meat not to mention in raw meat..,, as all the good gut bacteria is killed of .
Jack if you belive you could can buy bio industrie free chicken everywhere for everybody you wil find out that its not ez not to mention the ecspense ...
and please do NOT belive what they claim on the etikets ,where they say it is, they are ALWAYS 3 stept behind on what they CLAIM the product is, and make you belive is healthy meat ore chicken for that matter .
IF the same amound of chickens that are normally kenneld/ boxst up and stackt on top of eachother been put im those major big barns then they alredy called them free roaming chickes!!!!!. but sins there are no chicken wirere cages are in between them and they are not stackt on top of eathoder its bij law alouwd to call them free roaming. its still the same crap animal being fed the same shit. bisenis is bisenis. been involved to mutch in the meat industrie myself to know that.
altho i like my meat, i sure as hell try to use it as little as posible and kook the crap out of it. ore buy the good stuff from time to time.
Do you even remember how a real live free roaming chicken tasts like wich we got 40 years ago,??? .
insted we get those silly putty white gentic manipulated white meat they claim is chicken meat!!??.
where those chickens produce nearly1 1/2 to 2 lbs of chicken brests within 6 weeks.........feeding the waist of other animals who on there own are pumpt full with crap... i seen your videos where the costs are laid out . no way in hell you get and feed the right stuff to feed you dogs, bij cutting costs down.
Again its good when you get the REAL proper meat diet,and only for on the chain.but iven getting the right stuf is a tall order for you to do so..
and cost will rize above your head in sutch a way it isend iven funny anymore..
and to awnser your question about adding amino acids later on with kibbel hell being better. then hell yes its beter il get the protien less antibiots les hormons lees amino acids . if i ad the aminio acids i get everyting in THAT departmend that i need.. but thats personal and out of my own ecsperiense...
Tasoschats................ i cant convert now one i can mearly show the oposit side of wat is called the raw feeding health myth ... people make up there own minds .and as soon as they made there mind up . there is nothing i ore anybody els can do about it. my gospel against it, is like trying to cell canser nobody of the raw meat guys buys it..
Bij the way I like to see some wel conditiond raw meat dogs bij the way ... just to keep it in all good spirits..
Jon P lebron............. its very good to here you where able to change your life around!!. not alot of people are able to do that!!. respect im sure it wassend ez. right now im on a raw veggy mediteraniam diet myself..
I was kinda reddy to ask if people would ore could put a pickture up ona chiney healty raw fed dog . as i alredy ecsplained that its the amino asids in combination with antibiotics that thuse that . and it gives you a ""part"" fals sense of healht.
you are 100% right that you can read a great part of the health on a dog bij his looks. 3 features wil show you that from the get go shiny bricht eyes/ clear shiny coats and wet nozes . And indeed stool!.
Lets see some of these dogs.. and il show you a dog that was on raw meat and whent back to what we advised..
and il show you the rightway of feeding a dog kibble the weight of it and the weight of the waist/stool that comes out of the dog..


Limey, I don't have the time (or desire) to get into all of this drama you keep going on and on about regarding hormones and bacteria. Hormones are in our meats too, and yet we humans live longer than we ever have. Is it optimal? No. Organic would be better. But it sure is better to eat the meats we do than it would be to eat dog kibble :idea:

Regarding bacteria, a dog can eat freakin road kill replete with bacteria and be okay. A dog's digestive system is MUCH stronger than ours and they can take heavier bacteria loads than we with no ill effect. Truly, at the end of the day, you are arguing your imagination, not first-hand knowledge. And that is pretty much all of it.

The truth is, all of the Google-searching, link-posting, etc., etc. is not "knowledge"; it is only what you choose to believe. You have no actual knowledge of feeding raw, consistently, to a large group of animals. None.

I, on the other hand, have direct, FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE actually feeding raw to a yard of 60-80 dogs for a number of years ... and I have direct, first-hand experience feeding kibble to a huge yard for a number of years as well ... and my ACTUAL EXPERIENCE (not theoretical nonsense) showed me a landslide difference in my dogs' looks, health, their reproductive potency, and their staying "problem free" in the later years of their lives as opposed to when I fed kibble. (Sure, there are "individual exceptions" to any large group population, but they were very few and far between.)

Therefore, "me" debating "you" on the subject of feeding raw is almost a waste of my time. Truly, it would be like someone who has never seen a dogfight arguing with "you" on the subject of what it takes to produce one. You have decades of experience handling and producing combat dogs, where a novice would have none, and so it would be a waste of your time to argue with a man who "posted a lot of links" about the subject of dogfighting, but who has never seen a dogfight. I am sure you can easily see that this man's "link-posting" could never equal your actual experience handling and producing combat dogs, and therefore you really couldn't have a meaningful discussion with such a man (especially if he was obstinate and thought his "link-posting" was actual knowledge).

Well, in the same fashion Limey, because I don't think you truly know what you're talking about feeding raw (based on years of actual experience feeding a yard of dogs raw diet on a consistent basis), it is just impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you on the subject. If you actually took the time to feed your dogs a proper raw diet, for a number of months/years, you would simply NOT be saying the silly things you're saying about kibble-versus-raw. And that is pretty much all there is to it.

Instead, you would only be talking about how to make your raw diets better, by removing antibiotics/hormones, etc. Because the question isn't, "Is raw better than kibble," as the answer is simply YES. Rather, the questions that really need to be addressed are, "How can we feed raw cheaper?", or "How can we feed antibiotic/hormone-free raw economically?", etc., etc.

Those are the only questions worth talking about by knowledgeable dogmen on the subject of feeding dogs optimally.

The only thing kibble wins out on over raw is convenience, no question about that, but it simply does not afford equal-quality nutrition :idea:

Jack

[Officially Retired]

This whole thing about arsenic is kinda funny. Arsenic is found in drinking water, in lots of vegetables, in the environment. So while the presence of arsenic in chicken could be alarming, there are not lethal doses of arsenic in chicken. If it were, folks would be falling over dead. They're not. Even if your dog is NOT getting raw chicken, it's still getting arsenic every day of it's life from drinking water. :shocked: There are higher levels of arsenic in WELL water than it is city water, so if your grandparents or even you are on well water, you're drinking more arsenic water. Arsenic is used in oil products, so anytime you're around your car, or anyone else's car that's idling, you're inhaling arsenic particles. Is arsenic a carcinogen? Yes, and you are exposed to everyday whether you want to be or not. So are all of our dogs.

If a person is concerned with a lack of vitamins/minerals, feed vegetables with the diet. In one serving size of chicken, usually 4oz, there is 6% iron. In red meat, I think the number is 10% or it exceeds it. There are plenty of other sources of dietary iron to take the place of what's lacked in chicken. There are so many ways to feed a raw diet that differs everyday to cover all the bases by simply adding vegetables or fruits with the diet.

There's a reason why a dog, that's fed a raw diet, as opposed to a kibble diet, has less stool. It's because the dog is utilizing more of the product for actual energy. Excess waste is exactly that, waste. It's product not being absorbed by the body, whether human or dog. The old timers weren't gods of composing a raw meat diet. If they were, there wouldn't have been a quantum leap forward in performance. They were men who fed the dogs what they had available. Availability and raw diet are not created equally. Kibble is convenient food for us and the dog. Convenience doesn't equate to better. The same old timers thought, and some still do, that combiotic was the best antibiotic ever created. They believe you should cut off any type of supplementation at least 7 days before the match or they will make the dog run hot. They also thought that dogs that fought for the stifle were curs due to them going away from where the action is happening. With time comes knowledge. The knowledge on nutrition today is light years ahead of what old timers new ten years ago much less 40+ years ago.


I'm not sure how dogs that are fed a raw diet can't really handle pressure when it's put on them. That makes absolutely no sense. There are people everywhere that compete with dogs fed a raw diet that handle whatever pressure comes their way. Some win, some lose, some die. It's the exact same of dogs being fed kibble. If a person doesn't have a handle on what it takes to feed a raw diet for competition that our dogs are built for, they shouldn't be feeding. That has less to do with handling pressure and more to do with knowledge deficit. The same can be said for someone feeding kibble that has no idea on what it takes. The comparison of greyhounds and bulldogs doesn't make sense for me. Greyhounds need a higher carb diet as they're running a sprint. Dogs that are being conditioned for any type of endurance/stamina event will need higher fat, then protein, then carbs. That is why people use oils and fatty meat or fat from a butcher. It's a more calorie dense diet which is what's needed in regards to dog endurance.

I fed kibble to a yard of dogs for many years. I didn't have a lot of health related issues with the dogs aside from a few here and there that didn't react well to the food. Most of the time, I could switch that dog's particular food to something else, and the trouble would be alleviated. I've had other issues when feeding kibble in regards to skin issues, and when some enzymes were added to the food, the skin issues resolved themselves. The dog's system couldn't process something in the food, and enzyme supplementation was needed. I don't have any of those issues with the raw diet. I have a lot healthier dogs than I did before. They look better; they feel better. The older dogs are more active now. I've had other issues resolve themselves simply by not feeding kibble any longer. The dogs that get worked look as they should on the chain, and they perform as they should when it's called upon them to do so. This topic will always have people that believe in kibble over raw and vice versa. We can only go with our own experiences and/or the research that some of us have done that can/does support our beliefs, whether right or wrong. :D


Outstanding post :idea:

[Doc Ellis]

WHAT WOULD YOU RATHER EAT, A NICE BOWL OF CHICKEN/VEGGIES/RICE OR CEREAL FORTIFIED WITH VITAMINS/MINERALS. ALSO THE AMOUNT OF SHIT AND SMELL OF PISS IS ENOUGH FOR ME DO FEED EM RAW

[Limey Kennels]

I gues this link about carbs counts as much here as it thuse where it stands now..

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?452-CARBOHYDRATE-LOADING&p=14205#post14205
ps nobody can show of a raw fed conditiond dog !!??. also howmuchs in raw feeding weight would you feed a 55/58 lbs chain/kennel / house dog

[Officially Retired]

Check your email Limey ;)

[EWO]

app. 17oz of food..60 percent meat and 40 percent veggie mix...then adjust based on the individual dog...

[Limey Kennels]

Check your email Limey ;) chek yours jack hahahaha

[Limey Kennels]

Any of u guys PERSONALLY know of anyone who has any kind of sickness due to eating hormone fed meat... OBESITAS!!!!!!!!!!!!/Diabeties

[SGC]

Any of u guys PERSONALLY know of anyone who has any kind of sickness due to eating hormone fed meat...

Yes.

We used to eat a lot of the cheap grocery store chicken. I had not had a bladder infection in about 20 years but had a bad one in spring 2012 which took 2 courses of antibiotics to get rid of. Then I had another one in Oct 2012 also requiring more antibiotics...

So I am concerned about the supposed link between antibiotics in chicken and bladders infections in humans as certainly my own recent troubles were caused by something. We are now eating a so called antibiotic and hormone free naturally raised chicken.

As the old saying goes. "we are what we eat" and this goes for humans and dogs both...

[Jon P. Lebron]

http://m1301.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/Jon_Lebron/Normans%20Bulldogs/facebook_1754209611jpg_zpsd5e9159b.jpg.html?o=1

This are Norman's Monkey and Norman's Nasty Girl, this photos show two well conditioned dogs fed on raw only.

[Limey Kennels]

Unfortunatly the pictures are very tiney and arend focust....

[Jon P. Lebron]

I could send the to you by email, just let me know, thee photos look fine on my device, now that I checked them out in photobucket they do look bad there.

[FrostyPaws]

Yes.

We used to eat a lot of the cheap grocery store chicken. I had not had a bladder infection in about 20 years but had a bad one in spring 2012 which took 2 courses of antibiotics to get rid of. Then I had another one in Oct 2012 also requiring more antibiotics...

So I am concerned about the supposed link between antibiotics in chicken and bladders infections in humans as certainly my own recent troubles were caused by something. We are now eating a so called antibiotic and hormone free naturally raised chicken.

As the old saying goes. "we are what we eat" and this goes for humans and dogs both...

So did the Dr. tell you that the infection started was due to the chicken? Did any of your other family members suffer from kidney infections?

[Limey Kennels]

Frosty paws . you need to look at the bigger picture. put antibiotics in meat on google sirch and you see lots and lots and lots of news from years back uptill now consirning the dangers of antibiotics and hormons in meat.and therfor ESPECIALY in RAW MEAT. looking for a specific awnser and upertunatly for a debate with SGC wil not prove your right and his wrong.. take a look at the cheap chicken meat clip. its in dutch but the you tube clips dont need any languish ore sub titels.http://youtu.be/EdhoabewYjc ..
chek this one out maKE SURE YOU LOOK TO AT LEAST 4,15. http://youtu.be/ddqps9NR5ZA
4.000.000.000 of these chickes are produced for europe alone!!! geneticly manipulated, fed up full with massif amounds of antibiotics to make sure NO diseases break out beng so close to another. at 6/7 weeks old they are not only ready to be slaughted. but HAVE to be becuase there harths wil fail. and beat twice as fast as a regular eg laying chiken. there weight wil brake there legs and they die IF they live longer then 7 weeks...on top of that they run so hot that thy are now diveloping geneticly manipultated chickens who do not grow feathers http://youtu.be/8iynbYU_4cA MEANING LESS ENERGY LOSS DUE TO COOLING INSTALATIONS!!. and able to iven MORE chickens on one square yard. wich means more money.. on top of that they get fed prossest meat waist of dead animals . as SGC said you are what you eat.
You can NOT Feed RAW diet CHEAP and get health with it for your dogs!!! . biologicel chicken ore beaf meat etcetera is 3 to 4 times more ecspensif http://www.beefensteak.nl/nl/gevogelte-wild/biologische-kip/
And NO you cant bij that stuf at your whole sale markets.
plenty of news about SOLUTED SOIL due to the massif amounds of antibiotics that are drained into it tru urine from life stock... If you feed your own meat and prepear it yourself and whant to stick with your guns then at least cook the crap out of it.... the beter AND CHEAPER alternatif is feeding quality dry kibbel soakt in hot water..

[Limey Kennels]

Here ya go some myth Busting http://youtu.be/d_xLCaIJrv4 PS the owner of this dog whent back from raw diet to red mills kibble. and aded performer rpm health tonic tonic .................................................. .................................................. .... . feeding this way costs 0.70 euro cents a day wich comes douwn to 1 USD. this kibble contains EVERYTING a dog needs.. http://img803.imageshack.us/img803/8318/39893634809242858012910.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/803/39893634809242858012910.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[R2L]

Part feed, part genetics.

[Limey Kennels]

Ofcours, your right. but still the dog looks FAR superior then he ever did on Raw diet.. and his owner wil never go back.. feeding raw..

[Kimo615]

Did the owner feed raw correctly? I have always fed high quality grain free kibble. I recently got a pup that started losing hair as if it was demodex. Went to the vet 4 different times and two different vets. Negative demodex. I switched him to Jacks raw diet. 2 weeks later hair is growing back...far less stool and better quality stool. I tried 3 different kibbles previously ...chicken...bison...salmon. And was losing hair at a alarming rate. Flanks ...hind legs...head...muzzle. That went on for 4 months. Then two weeks of raw and bingo! Same proteins as the kibble I was feeding. Chicken ...ground beef...beef tips ext. I've never seen such a dramatic improval of a scenario I was losing faith in. I swear by raw. I'll never go back. Have since converted all my dogs to raw and they are far more healthy than ever before. The dogs look to be in their natural state so to speak.

[Limey Kennels]

He fed coreckly yes. and plenty of others to who whent back to feeding kibble . chek the link one page back as it is working again.... the problems you discribed are tipicel feeding drij kibble wrong!! and the pups ore dogs in question have proten poison due to lack of amino acids and ore feeding the Dry kibble WRONG and ore the wrong kibble..

[Kimo615]

I was feeding high end kibbles...grain free. Supplemented RF-1 aswell. Still didn't get the same results. I tried salmon oil...all types of remedies. Then two weeks of jacks premium raw and bam! All my other dogs are better physically to. Hardly any body fat...shiny coats...clean teeth...lots of energy. Their digestive system is benefiting tremendously. So is the immune system. Feeding kibble is like you surviving on Taco bell your entire life. Its just not plausible to be in top health on that garbage. Same goes for dogs on kibble. Some dogs fair better on kibble than others I agree. But mine do not. To the average Joe's eye they would think my dogs look good on kibble...but then if I showed them my dogs on raw their light bulb would go off. The benefits far out weigh the bad...can't say the same for kibble. I'll read the link...see what your talking about. But I do not see myself going back. To much gain.

[CRISIS]

the only reason i went back to kibble was the time/prep factor and the limited space......

when im all done moving in and settled with a deep freezer, please believe when i say IM GOIN BACK TO RAW!

[Kimo615]

Simple conclusion.... Dogs that are fed raw poop less can we agree? Anything that comes out of the body is considered waste can we agree? So...more poop means more waste right? Meaning there are ingredients in kibble that have no use or cannot be digested. The body takes what it needs...the rest becomes waste. But....if there is nothing there for the body to benefit from or has excess of unusable ingredients ...there is more waste. So...in raw feeding...the body is using most of the meat. Less waste! In kibble...the body is not using or cannot use the ingredients it contains...more waste! Anything in excess that the body doesn't need or is deemed unusable comes out as waste. Simply put.

[Limey Kennels]

Have you ACTUALY lookt at this link and READ the texst http://youtu.be/d_xLCaIJrv4 if so then your eather IGNOREND ore have wall in front of your face.. the diguestebilety of feeding kible done the right way is the same ore iven BETER then feeding raw!!.. you ever heard of Beef jerky!!. Im sure you have wel 100grams of beef jerky comes from240 grams of raw undried beef!!. same with dried salted fish http://www.saltfish.com/preparation.html
this means when you SOAK it again the meat ore fish takes on the natural water to meat contense and volume!!!. if you then take your dried vegies and rice ore cereal and blend them up to a pulp when dry. press them into a pallet. al the same quality contense are in that Pallet same as your raw ingriedienses you use to feed your dog .Nothing has changed only the water has been taken out!!!!!!!. and it looks diferend because its grinded to tiny little un reconiseble grains as big as Sand..........

NOW soak these pallets, and al these ingriedienses used get there natural water to meat/vegies contens and volume back....
If you DONT do that then a dog wil need to take water from his NATURAL fluid house hold!!.In order to TRY to diguest the kibble. However this is far LESS efisient.
with the result that part of the dry food comes out un diguested. and a dogs SYSTEM is triggerd to uphold there water/fluid level and they start to drink alot!!.

(many a dog on the chain dont have acses to water 24/7 eather wich wil make the dog Dehydrated iven more and get more loose runny stool when fed un soiakt dry food and is a HUMAN ERROR when this happends its not because the dry food is bad!!.. In these cases where Human Error is presend then feeding raw on the chain ore kennel gives the dog more/ beter water house hold)

This is also the same rezen why dogs fed of raw meat and kibble at the same time get the runns .
Because the kibble needs more water to diguest at the same speed and rate (quiker denser en beter when soakt), as RAW meat thuse.

Now if you would SOAK the dry Food first and ad meat then diguestebilety will be PERFECT. Infact quality Dog food/kibble is actualy PRE DIGUESTED as everyting hase been grinded douwn to grains as big as sand prior to be made into a pallet. meaning the STOMAGE ACID has less efford and trouble to break douwn the large chunks of meat bone and vegies!!!!! witch are given when feeding raw.. wich sepreatly need diferend times to diguest!!. Now if you put al your raw meat and bone and vegies and stick them in a meat grinder and grind it to pulp. and feed that to your dog you wil see a even BETER digestebilety of all the ingridienses.

if we go one step feurther. and have that PULP dried out first where al the water contense is taken out, and make 200 pellets out of that quality dried mixture that you made.
and later soak it in 120/140% of the same volume of water. then it wil get the ""same"" volume and water contense as it was PRIOR to being DRIED. QUALITY is the same DIGUESTEBILETY IMPROOVES. And that my frinds is how the cooky crumbles . nothing more ore less. and again IT ALL THEPENDS if YOU the owner are able to FEED the RIGHT way and select the BEST drij food/kibble for your animals..
On top of that it DEPENDS if YOU the owner buys the corect dry food/kibble and find out the right weight of kibble to be soakt to feed your dog.
No you can repeat yourself over and over again But the laws of fisics are the laws of fisics you can not change these given facts!!!!!!!!!!!!...

[OGDOGG]

After 10 pages and nobody is tapping out? Y'all can't convince Limey that raw is better. Why? Because his family is selling kibbles. That's a fact, end of story. Anybody who have fed raw the right way know its better for their dogs. And the ones who went back to kibbles are too gd lazy. I get tired everyday preparing raw for my dogs but I said f*ck it. I'll just keep on trucking cause I know my dogs love it and they look awesome. If you're feeding kibbles, more power to ya. I love it when the other camp comes in with a kibble fed dog cause its one step closer for an easy win.:twisted:

[Limey Kennels]

Yes the Record of the famely we have compleatly sucks over the last 30 years!!... Our famely of dogs have been bred raised shown more good dogs ch grch Rom dogs then any other of sorts on this forum. so far so NOBODY is able to prove my ""FACTS"" wrong. im the only one that comes here to bust the Myths and lias and MISUNDERSTANDING surounding the raw feeders claim about Dry food....

[R2L]

Its starting to look like some kibble vs raw war. I think feed is very important but right now its being made more important then it is.

Tell me in how many occasions would an average kibble fed dog win over a good raw fed dog?

About the dog on the picture Limey posted, no the owner did not feed raw correctly. Do you even know what he fed?

He looks great now, obviously there are good ways of feeding kibble too. To each his own.

[tasoschatz]

Faster digested food does not equal better. Except from specific needs, like pre and post workout feeds, slow digestion is better. Unless someone wishes protein to be converted into glycogens to serve energy purposes, which will also raise insulin etc etc. If the case of faster absorbed foods had real advantage over conventional, then every multimillion paid athlete would live on predigested supplements, and there are plenty of every kind, aminos for protein, glucose for carbs and mct's for fats, to name a few.

[Limey Kennels]

There is no kibble raw diet war unless somebody is creating one!. and one responds to it.. If im making it more importend then it realy iz, why do we see the mythologicel proportions of raw feeders do it 10 fold!!.. truth is a bitch when you take away all the bad claims about dry food/ kibble.and show its the other way around consirning bio ibdustrie crap in these same diets used bij the nee sayers ... when diniel sets in imidiatly..when confronted with the crap they feed themselfs..
and yes i know what the man fed to his dog. and yes he tried DIFEREND ways of raw diets.
about 20 years ago a man who owned a dogfood/ sups/ company called Highlex international from the UK, was the VERY FIRST one in europe who came out with the compleat Barf diet sausage. WE where the first ones to get it and the resipies to create raw diets. and tested it for that company. the man claimed at the time this wil be the future in making money in feeding dogs. we knew the compleat set up and toughts behind it.

afther testing these products we disided NOT to go for it. a BIG mistake ""finansial wize"" as we could have made wel millions. as we never belived it would pick up in our scene but in the pet world scene.wich was not our thing.......
as our scene was to high end and profesional involved to get and see the benifit of working a dog profesional on these diets. as we alredy walkt away from raw feeding.. This happend long befor you knew what a pit dog was my frind.... where there were more then 45 kennels in a country that only took 3 1-2 hours to drive tru with sons and bitches direckly of off Bolio ,Rufus, jeep, grand sons of nigger you name it there where only a drive away... surounded bij another 5 countrys and a ez flight to the usa..
where dogs off of JD Elliot where considerd as the best Eli dogs in the world and got spankt and where Bobby Bulshit hall got spankt as wel. a scene where todays dogman can only dream about..
The only raw meat that was given with the kibble in those days bij those who stil belived in it, was a combination of 100 grams of 40% beef/30% deer/30% goat being minst together. lightly kookt vegies like spinage was added as wel to top it of with 1/4 cup of brown riced. the kibble used was 75% of those diets., at that time Eucanuba and Purina was still king together with the Higlex greyhound foods wich we alredy used and sold back then.. People ASUME that we never fed raw diets. WE DID....... I am from the generation who was raised feeding raw to the dogs. being grown up with my father importing and breeding ecsotic animals ranging from tigers to gevet cats. and who slaughter there own animals to feed these animals..
there was absolutly no benifit but more time consuming efford and it was nearly imposible to get it right when working a dog for the ``fast`` lane. as there was to mutch inconsistentie in the products used and the bulk dogs needed to consume in the high end of its keep was to mutch of a strain on the diguesting system. find the south african pitbull forum and look for a intervieuw with Indian Sunny where feeding is discussed as wel between raw and kibble..80% of the claims here are made 1 bij guys who where never realy suscsesfull in the fast lane of the game ,but had more sucses as breeders. where dogs on the chain ore kenneld up look great... 2 by guys who are involved a couple of years and have a nice time looking at a couple of dogs and showing one ,ones in a while.. Claims can only be made if the testing of a RACING PRODUCT IS DONE IN THE VERY TOP LEVEL OF COMPETITION FOR DECADES!!!!!!!.. One bird in the sky thussend make a flock....And i think you know what im on about.... lat but not least I have NO problem with people feeding raw and there claim to sucses. i salut them..... I DO have a problem when wrong statemends are being made consirning kibble being bad for the dogs. wich are all wiped of the table bij just SOAKING good quality kibble in water.... IT IS that simple...........

[Limey Kennels]

Faster digested food does not equal better. Except from specific needs, like pre and post workout feeds, slow digestion is better. Unless someone wishes protein to be converted into glycogens to serve energy purposes, which will also raise insulin etc etc. If the case of faster absorbed foods had real advantage over conventional, then every multimillion paid athlete would live on predigested supplements, and there are plenty of every kind, aminos for protein, glucose for carbs and mct's for fats, to name a few.

It is always beter. .
the faster food have been diguested the more time a body has to ``recuver`` to be redy for the necst day. Another rezen why high bulk feeding)raw' works against that . and bij the way why do you think athletes dont eat raw meat ore a raw dough diets!!.. Eczackly because everyting we alredy eat in our dayly lives has in one way ore the other way being prepeard as pre diguested food ranging from bread to meat, kookt pasta,s you name it... kooking ``pre diguested``' food was a quantum leap forward when man discuverd how to make Fire......It took the strain of off our diguesting system making us able to became dominand in the animal kingdom.. where we used lesser calories and energy to diguest raw feeding..

[Jon P. Lebron]

Limey was the dog on the video fed ones or twice on that day?

[R2L]

Wow, tried soaking today.

40 minutes of crying/barking and me shouting to the dogs to keep quiet.
no matter they are in or outside, they all hear me preparing the feed.

[Limey Kennels]

Limey was the dog on the video fed ones or twice on that day? Once a day

[Jon P. Lebron]

http://m1301.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/Jon_Lebron/facebook_-1610638274_zps294a078f.jpg.html?o=0

Norman's Bear 1xW

[tasoschatz]

It is always beter. .
the faster food have been diguested the more time a body has to ``recuver`` to be redy for the necst day. Another rezen why high bulk feeding)raw' works against that . and bij the way why do you think athletes dont eat raw meat ore a raw dough diets!!.. Eczackly because everyting we alredy eat in our dayly lives has in one way ore the other way being prepeard as pre diguested food ranging from bread to meat, kookt pasta,s you name it... kooking ``pre diguested``' food was a quantum leap forward when man discuverd how to make Fire......It took the strain of off our diguesting system making us able to became dominand in the animal kingdom.. where we used lesser calories and energy to diguest raw feeding..
I guess our background and understanding of certain data is diametricaly oposite.
The faster a nutrient is absorbed in an environment of regular feeding and by a healthy subject, the highest the posibility for it to be used for the wrong reasons. Protein will turn into glucose instead of replenishing glycogen levels, carbs will create a high insulin spike and then a sudden drop, fats will go straight into deposit. Pre and post workout meals exempted. Nutrient absorption starts in the mouth, continious in the stomach and then in the intestine. Different nutrients at different stages, even the same macronutrient groups contain subgroups of different quality nutrients that each is absorbed from a different body part. Obviously they offer different results. Three aminos digested individually offer different actions than a group / chain of these three for eg.
Athletes do like continuous supply of nutrients, not fast absorption, again pre and post workout meals exempted, with your proposal they should consume tiny amounts of food every ten minutes or so. They do not eat raw because our body can not deal anymore with digesting it and certain allergies and other microorganisms that can harm us. This is an evolution step that hapenned during thousands of years in what is today the modern human, it started from neanderdal humanoid. Yes, cooking their meat enabled them to digest it faster and easier and help their brain to grow and everything, during hard times with plenty of starvation. Milk digestion from human adults took 10.000 years to happen and it is considered a revolutionary step in terms of time for the evolution science, by the way we are the only adult mammal that can digest milk from other mammals. But the above are evolution process, it has nothing to do with what we talk about here, unless someone is convinced that evolution in canines happens much faster etc and wants to do it. Also, when the man discovered how to cook pasta, also discovered diabetis.
I know your views on feeding from the g-d forum and I do not expect you to change, my way is to try to see if I can find some justification on these views, which is why I ask and post. Until now I stay on my original ideas, my background is such that looks for data and proof given at certain ways not met here. Obviously I will continue reading your posts since I could always learn something to my benefit.

[Limey Kennels]

I make your right about your background and understanding of certain data is diametricaly differnd then mine.. atleaths DO eat as LIGHT as posible, and as mutch pre diguested prepeard food as posible.
Because they do, it thussend meen that ALL the nutritiend included diguest at the same speed!!!. Just QUIKER as they normaly do.. h
Having been a body builder myself and a boxing trainer for my 3 sons (one made state ch) including an conditioner for 30 years i know al to wel, how the cooky crumbles.
atleats like boxers body builders do eat diferend meals yes at diferend times a day.
BUT al of them are very light and most are pre diguested meals. and taken to keep the tank of energy full!!.
Al there food is is light and prepeard to digues fast being it pre ore afther workout meals!..
This is also the rezen why atleaths and dogs conditioners are useing steroids!. Not just to become stronger and being able to ubsorb more nutritiens /food But and here it comes ""to recuver quiker"" and HOLD ON to energy... Due to the combination of steroids and low bulk fast diguested food.

The body uses way LESS energy to digest food and is able to have a BETER FASTER recuvery time. saving up energy that normaly is lost diguesting it big bulk meals.
We ALL know what happens when we eat a big meal with lots of everyting. We get TIRED and go sleep it of on the coutch as the body is working its ASS of to diguest the meal!!!!!! in such as high pace that your face wil GLOW!!. and you get actualy FISICAL TIRED and fal asleep.. wich on itself costs loads of energy as it is ENERGY LOSS and your tired during that prosses........

The point you make about mankind not being able to digest raw meat anymore , and be able to digest milk ecetera. is not holding ground eather as that my frind is only geograficly detirmend.
People from the far east specificly the japanese can NOT stand MILK.'
while on the other side of the world in some parts of europe they dont have that problem . Same where the japanese and escimos eat LOTS of raw meats and fish.
And in africa they eat dirty half rotten meat that make us lose our lives due to massif food posion and bacterial infections.. hensh the advice when you travel to ecsotic countries to get your shots against deseases and drink from water bottles only and to eat wel prepeard wel kookt food!!.....

And yes evolution in man bred made canines is 10 fold faster then mankind. For the record the wolf and wild dogs from african are WILD!!.
Our breed is NOT and is a creation of man kind bred for a sirtin peurpose .
In sutch a way that it has become a sub spiecies.
Our dogs look like dogs eat like dogs shit like dogs and pissis like dogs they iven bark like dogs .
But thats as far as it gose. As our dogs have NOTHING more to do with what the world considers a dog and defenatly not iven remote close to a wild dog..

Its bred AGAINST the rules and laws of nature and mutated in a animal that could and would not ever been a product of nature. It has the abilety to take more use and abuse and recuvers from trauma more so then any animal alive today.
It has been culled and selected for a perpose in such a way , that it has sirpased al defenition of being a wild animal. and could NOT sirvive as a wild animal..

This breed my frinds is feurther away from the wild dogs of nature then any other dog breed known to man.
And therfor could not and should not be compeard with the wild dogs of nature>> where animals like the wolf can diguest up to 30 lbs of meat and bones and can go with out food for 2 to 3 weeks without loosing energy inbetween meals because like wild cats afther a meal they do F..kall in between but spend as little enery as posible<<<...

compleatly diferend animals then ours..
who have sevear condition programs where they have a increase workload for weeks and weeks at the time. sometimes up to 5/5 hours work a day.
minimize recuvery time and maximize recuvery is KEY with the INCREASE of work .
Which makes recuvery take longer. so it is very importend for pre diguested ore low bulk food

Our breed is so advandst that they are able to compensate for some time while being over workt ore being sick.
Meaning that when they havend fully recuverd from the workouts. they still go out give the performance that is askt from them and be able to hold on to that for some time.
By the time they do show it its to late...

From my own ecsperienses i used to work the dogs at the same time every day. and i checkt the time they came out of there doghouses and strechst out and took a piss and a shit. I wachst to see how long BEFORE they came out to show they where reddy to go for another days work. The quiker and sooner they are reddy, the more energy was in them and the more you could push them IF nesersary.

Pushing the recuvery envelop time needed bij feeding them high bulk raw food japordis the recuvery time.. Ofcours this all depends and varius with geografic suroundings as wel like temperature/ dry ore moister air/ sea level ore in the mountains and the work scedule that dogs get. same thuse aplies for humans. and diet needs to be adjusted for diferend locations ecetera. therfor nothing in written in stone.

what is written in stone is that a body needs to recuver as quick as posible with as less efford posible to put as less strain on the SYSTEM to uphold and hold on to as mutch energy posible.... Hensh lots and lots of pre diguested suplemends and vitamins and minerals and protiens blood buildetrs luquit Amino acids ecetera are a MUST for all the sporting mamals being it Man horse dogs to be able to compeat in the fast lane.
As reaching that goal with raw/ fresh food ore vegies without ading these pre diguested suplemend and without taking away the BULK needed wil NOT make you able to compeat against the rest of the world. unless you have a good given/ bred talend to do so...

Aczample do you know ore realize how many frutes and veggies you need to eat in BULK to get the same vitamins and minerals inside of you compeard to a simpel multi vita/ mineral pill!!! . and wich one is ubsorbt and diguested quiker to give a faster resuld in recuvery. how long will a atleath need to recuver eating fresh food drinking water being in the heat loosing lots of minerals and body fluids, compeard to drink a simple GATOR AID where minerals are ubsurbt and added in the sytem within MIN, Yes thats pre diguested food for the body and mind also..... Do you belive a todays atleath who ONLY eats fresh food high bulk diet is able to get all the nutritiense out of there diets NEEDED to compeat!!.. I dont think so.. we onlt have to look at our resend history where there was no pre diguested food and suplemends availeble to see what a quantem leap forward man and animal has gained in sports times and records due to that in combination with the training technics that fit these diets.................

[Black Hand]

I think there are benefits to both raw or kibble and ppl have their own ways of doing both. I like raw cuz I dictate every aspect of what goes into my dogs body and it's actually costing me a little bit less for that peace of mind. I do not trust a corporation that is hell bent on a profit with the ingredients of their food, good or bad. I'm not worried about a profit, only return I care about is my dogs well being so I'm just more comfortable preparing my dogs food. they look and act great. I've seen dogs look and act great on cheap kibble too though. but I do it for peace of mind so I'm not cringing every time I put food in their bowl lol.

[Limey Kennels]

Shouldend you be at least as worried about the raw product you buy. nothing on the lable (if there is any at al)sais ore states ore show you anything, but the color of the meat and skin(wich is uphold with artifisional products for decades).. thats a fals securety of health my frind.. the only thing you dictate is what combination of the same crap meat that is used in dry food you put in that food boul.. but if that makes you feel beter .........Unless you buy highend kibble ore meat products...PS on the dog food bags it at least states whats being used to produce the product!!. you wil not see on the chiken lable , massif amounds of antibiotics used in this bio industry chicken to make sure no diseases broke out. and used to gain more meat. as thats a known side afect of antibiotics as wel..

[tasoschatz]

To whom it may concern, anabolism equals into positive nitrogen balance, if very fast digested food is provided, well, after digestion is over, and aminos are driven wherever and in whatever form they will turn, catabolism starts, so you feed again? and how much you think the body can take and use, without steroids? Obviously post workout and aminos during workout serve as anticatabolics due to body amino sparing effect.
I had the chance to see what olympic games competitive athletes eat, lets say for lunch, nothing light in there. Certain athletes from certain sports exempted like gymnastics etc.
As I said before, Limey has his views, I see no reason to continue in this topic, since we represent different opinions like for eg fast digestion is always better for L, while for me only after certain activities.
Obviously I will continue following his posts, it is just that my personnal skimming of incoming info is what it is.

[Officially Retired]

I think there are benefits to both raw or kibble and ppl have their own ways of doing both. I like raw cuz I dictate every aspect of what goes into my dogs body and it's actually costing me a little bit less for that peace of mind. I do not trust a corporation that is hell bent on a profit with the ingredients of their food, good or bad. I'm not worried about a profit, only return I care about is my dogs well being so I'm just more comfortable preparing my dogs food. they look and act great. I've seen dogs look and act great on cheap kibble too though. but I do it for peace of mind so I'm not cringing every time I put food in their bowl lol.

There is no "benefit" of kibble at all, except for human convenience.

It offers ZERO nutritional advantage over what it used to be before it was cooked and destroyed.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Shouldend you be at least as worried about the raw product you buy. nothing on the lable (if there is any at al)sais ore states ore show you anything, but the color of the meat and skin(wich is uphold with artifisional products for decades).. thats a fals securety of health my frind.. the only thing you dictate is what combination of the same crap meat that is used in dry food you put in that food boul.. but if that makes you feel beter .........Unless you buy highend kibble ore meat products...PS on the dog food bags it at least states whats being used to produce the product!!. you wil not see on the chiken lable , massif amounds of antibiotics used in this bio industry chicken to make sure no diseases broke out. and used to gain more meat. as thats a known side afect of antibiotics as wel..

Why don't you actually feed your dogs a top raw diet, for at least 6 months, before you type another word?

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Frosty paws . you need to look at the bigger picture. put antibiotics in meat on google sirch and you see lots and lots and lots of news from years back uptill now consirning the dangers of antibiotics and hormons in meat.and therfor ESPECIALY in RAW MEAT. looking for a specific awnser and upertunatly for a debate with SGC wil not prove your right and his wrong.. take a look at the cheap chicken meat clip. its in dutch but the you tube clips dont need any languish ore sub titels.http://youtu.be/EdhoabewYjc ..
chek this one out maKE SURE YOU LOOK TO AT LEAST 4,15. http://youtu.be/ddqps9NR5ZA
4.000.000.000 of these chickes are produced for europe alone!!! geneticly manipulated, fed up full with massif amounds of antibiotics to make sure NO diseases break out beng so close to another. at 6/7 weeks old they are not only ready to be slaughted. but HAVE to be becuase there harths wil fail. and beat twice as fast as a regular eg laying chiken. there weight wil brake there legs and they die IF they live longer then 7 weeks...on top of that they run so hot that thy are now diveloping geneticly manipultated chickens who do not grow feathers http://youtu.be/8iynbYU_4cA MEANING LESS ENERGY LOSS DUE TO COOLING INSTALATIONS!!. and able to iven MORE chickens on one square yard. wich means more money.. on top of that they get fed prossest meat waist of dead animals . as SGC said you are what you eat.
You can NOT Feed RAW diet CHEAP and get health with it for your dogs!!! . biologicel chicken ore beaf meat etcetera is 3 to 4 times more ecspensif http://www.beefensteak.nl/nl/gevogelte-wild/biologische-kip/
And NO you cant bij that stuf at your whole sale markets.
plenty of news about SOLUTED SOIL due to the massif amounds of antibiotics that are drained into it tru urine from life stock... If you feed your own meat and prepear it yourself and whant to stick with your guns then at least cook the crap out of it.... the beter AND CHEAPER alternatif is feeding quality dry kibbel soakt in hot water..


You keep typing the same nonsense.

You still have ZERO actual experience feeding your dogs raw for a long time.

Your problem is with hormones and bacteria, not the concept of raw meats versus kibble. You arguing against raw due to "bacteria" is like me arguing against kibble because of the aflatoxin deaths that have come about in bad kibble batches. So if you want to talk about toxic meat as a strawman, then hell let's talk about toxic kibble. Hell, I would say more dogs have died across the nation from bad batches of kibble than from eating raw. But that still isn't the point.

The POINT is, at its best and purest, raw flesh is the way dogs are supposed to eat their food. Kibble is not. At its best and purest, raw meats/ingredients have more nutrition than they do after being cooked down into kibble. The best kibbled feeds were better before they were cooked! And that is just a fact that you will never get around.

If you want to argue "contamination," and "worst to worst," I would rather feed my dogs raw chicken with salmonella (or a few hormones) than I would to feed a bag of kibble contaminated by aflatoxins. If you want to talk about "best to best," raw food items are still a thousand times more nutritious than what they become when turned into kibble. And, again, that is just something you will never get around.

So why don't you actually feed your dogs the best raw food you can, for a number of months, before you type another word on the subject ... and check back with us ... because you will be singing a different tune altogether.

Jack

[Limey Kennels]

Why don't you actually feed your dogs a top raw diet, for at least 6 months, before you type another word?

Jack

Obviusly Jack you have not read my posts very wel. sure i know my spelling sucks but belive me i fed raw long befor you did...........
also proove of you NOT reading my posts is that i have a problem with hormons and ANTIBIOTICS........
and high bulk feeding and lack of balansing raw feeding diets when working dogs.. At the same time i took away some raw feeding ecsperd Myths aimed toward kibble including yours on your videos .
Bij just simply adding water to kibble and have it soakt in . (make sure you read the texst in the video as wel https://sites.google.com/site/greenriverworkingdogsupplies/myth-busting )

The one i forgot to mention is that dogs DO NOT get bad teeth when eating ""soakt"" kibble.in contrary being fed the dry kibble, as the STICKY saliva that the dogs pull out of there glans are not added when dogs eat soakt kibble.(just like feeding raw you dont see them licking there mouths for 5 ore 10 min because of the water contens in raw diet Hens no sticky Salive stays behind) the Saliva mixes with the dry kibble and stays in there mouth and set of on there teeth over time wich forms dental stone / tartar http://youtu.be/Cq5PnsAJiRk nothing more nor less a simple visit to the vet and its gone . if un treated then teeth rot yes. BUT al this is not a problem when soaking your kibble in water .. .. Dogs automaticly produce lots of saliva to the kibble because its to dry!!. only the dogs who do NOT crunsh the"not soakt dry Kibble and swalow it wholle do not get bad teeth!! The same problem ocurs when babies are fed milk products in there bottles when they get there last feeding during the night . it creates saliva that take on the milk sugar and stick to there teeth resulting in pre mature rotten teeth.. Is this Non sense to you to Jack. .... Ore is the pot blaming the kethel it turns black here Jack. jou acusing me of not have been feeding Raw diets (witch i have) and at the same time you have NEVER lookt at the simple way to over come a posible dry food problems because it never came into your mind . nor of others that are feeding raw diets who DID have problems with feeding dry food the wrong way.... her you go KIbble and raw euro basset hunting hounds enjoy..
http://youtu.be/0ZexPPDLXRA http://youtu.be/AC4cACp-E2w

[Black Hand]

Shouldend you be at least as worried about the raw product you buy. nothing on the lable (if there is any at al)sais ore states ore show you anything, but the color of the meat and skin(wich is uphold with artifisional products for decades).. thats a fals securety of health my frind.. the only thing you dictate is what combination of the same crap meat that is used in dry food you put in that food boul.. but if that makes you feel beter .........Unless you buy highend kibble ore meat products...PS on the dog food bags it at least states whats being used to produce the product!!. you wil not see on the chiken lable , massif amounds of antibiotics used in this bio industry chicken to make sure no diseases broke out. and used to gain more meat. as thats a known side afect of antibiotics as wel..

it makes me feel better cuz I have the option of feeding any kind of meat I want, commercially raised or locally raised and not sold to the masses. you do not have to buy commercially sold meat like you have to buy commercially sold dog food, you can raise your own if you like or im sure there are plenty locals with their own stock around you. I have the choice of feeding absolutely whatever kind of anything that I like, as the only gains I'm interested in are in the dogs health. absolutely nothing to do with money as I'm not hurting for money and have no more dogs than I can afford to feed however I like. that's the peace of mind. I don't have to be cheap, but it just so happens to cost about the same or a little less than high end kibble. Now I'm not against kibble, but it seems to me if there was a proper way to feed kibble the shit would be on the bag along with those good ingredients you speak of if the company had dogs best interest in mind.

[Black Hand]

and if the company does not have my animals best interest in mind, I'm not going to spend my money and try to think of a way to better the product when I can simply buy everything needed to feed my dogs the way I like.

whatever works for you and your dogs though. everyone can't be the same. ol Roy, pedigree, taste of the wild, inova, meat from Walmart, the butcher, your own, your neighbors. we all have different methods and opinions. I know what works for mine cuz I've done a lot of different things.

[Limey Kennels]

Black hand then you are umongst the very few, who can feed a ""realy""healty raw diet!!!... consirning good quality kibble is the same as with good quality meat ""You get what you pay for"" CHEK LAST LINE INBETWEEN THE >>>>>>>>>.. Decleration..<<<<<<<




Key Features
•Formulation: It is the first greyhound racing diet to combine the best Irish, UK and US nutrition expertise.
•State of the Art Manufacturing Process: Gain® Record Breaker is produced in the top American dog food factory, which is rated world no.1 for consistent quality ingredients and manufacturing technology.
•Protein Source: Fresh Chicken (never frozen) is the main ingredient. Other high quality proteins such as fish, eggs, gluten meal ensure the correct amino acid balance is acheived.
•Maintenance of Lean Muscle Mass: L-Carnitine is included to help maintain lean muscle mass, by reducing the deposition of body fat.
•Creatine Free: Creatine where used, is best fed as a separate supplement, to provide total control over dosage rate and timing of administration.
•Optimum Energy Supply: An optimum energy supply is provided by the inclusion of brewers rice, maize, chicken fat and canola oil etc, which helps your dog maximise it's acceleration and stamina throughout the race.
•Gastrointestinal Health: The inclusion of brewers yeast, FOS and pulp helps promote a healthy digestive system. The exclusion of wheat and soya helps increase digestibility and reduces the risk of digestive upsets.
•Healthy Skin & Coat: Flaxseed, fish and canola oil are included to help maintain the correct Omega-6 to Omega-3 ratio, which helps the skin, coat, brain and vision.
•Strong Immune System: High levels of Vitamin E and other antioxidants help to maintain a strong natural immunity.
•Chelated Minerals and Essential Vitamins: The inclusion of a balance of high quality chelated minerals and essential vitamins in Gain® Record Breaker is critical for optimum health and performance.
•Skeletal Growth: The inclusion of TruCal (Glanbia's unique source of highly available natural milk calcium) helps maintain strong bones and teeth.
•Joint Mobility: Glucosamine and Chondrotin are included to help develop good joint mobility.
•Low Ash Level: The patented low-ash manufacturing process increases digestibility and helps eliminate kidney problems.
•Odour Control: Natural plant extracts are added to help control unpleasant dog odours.
•Natural Preservatives: This product is naturally preserved, with no artificial colours, flavours or preservatives.
•Palatability: It is extremely palatable due to the unique combination of ingredients and its manufacturing process.
•Ingredient>>>>>>>>>>> Declaration: Gain® Record Breaker is the first greyhound racing diet to declare the full list of its ingredients.<<<<<<<<<<<<

AAFCO Statement

Animal feeding tests using Association of American Feed Control Officials' procedures substantiate that Gain® Record Breaker provides complete and balance nutrition for adult dogs.

Ingredients (Descending Order)

Chicken, Chicken Meal, brewers rice, whole grain ground corn (maize), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and vitamin E), corn gluten meal, beet pulp, fish meal, natural chicken flavour, egg product, canola oil, rice flour, dried chicory root (FOS), flaxseed, dried brewers yeast, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, milk mineral complex (TruCal), choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, yucca schidigera, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulphate, zinc sulphate, copper sulphate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondrotin sulphate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, L-Carnitine, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulphate, sodium selenite, pyroxidine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

[inkdogg]

Ingredients (Descending Order)

Chicken, Chicken Meal, brewers rice, whole grain ground corn (maize), chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and vitamin E), corn gluten meal, beet pulp, fish meal, natural chicken flavour, egg product, canola oil, rice flour, dried chicory root (FOS), flaxseed, dried brewers yeast, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, milk mineral complex (TruCal), choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, yucca schidigera, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulphate, zinc sulphate, copper sulphate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondrotin sulphate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, L-Carnitine, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulphate, sodium selenite, pyroxidine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

If Chicken is the main ingredient den why add chicken flavour...

[tasoschatz]

Since the high quality gluten meal is included to ensure correct aminoacid balance, some flavor additive is needed to ensure correct flavor. Just making fun ofcourse.

[Limey Kennels]

LOL why do people ad dried consentraight chiken stock to there fresh chicken soop....

[Doc Ellis]

cuz theyre lazy and like a salty taste.none of that jar/box shit around here

[Officially Retired]

Ingredients (Descending Order)

1) Chicken, 2) Chicken Meal, 3) brewers rice, 4) whole grain ground corn (maize), 5) chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and vitamin E), 6) corn gluten meal, 7) beet pulp, 8 ) fish meal, 9) natural chicken flavour, 10) egg product, canola oil, rice flour, dried chicory root (FOS), flaxseed, dried brewers yeast, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, milk mineral complex (TruCal), choline chloride, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, yucca schidigera, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, copper proteinate, ferrous sulphate, zinc sulphate, copper sulphate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondrotin sulphate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, L-Carnitine, biotin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulphate, sodium selenite, pyroxidine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.

If Chicken is the main ingredient den why add chicken flavour...


Red = Shit Ingredient
Yellow = Useless filler.

The only useful ingredients in that bag of garbage is chicken and fish, both of which were rendered into a near-useless state through the kibbling process.

Why TF would anyone buy that crap? How much does it cost?

Does anybody realize they could simply feed raw chicken, an egg, fish oil, and cooked rice, and toss-in a vitamin pill, and you'd be giving the same thing ... but better because the chicken is raw ... without having to give the garbage of corn, gluten, wheat, and beet pulp ... and that you could do so at a fraction of the cost?

Jack

[sam i am]

Sometimes Jack convenience beats out logical reasoning... that's the case with most kibble feeders, I was guilty of it for along time..

[skipper]

The only kibble i would consider giving my dogs are dog lovers gold.

[Limey Kennels]

Red = Shit Ingredient
Yellow = Useless filler.

The only useful ingredients in that bag of garbage is chicken and fish, both of which were rendered into a near-useless state through the kibbling process.

Why TF would anyone buy that crap? How much does it cost?

Does anybody realize they could simply feed raw chicken, an egg, fish oil, and cooked rice, and toss-in a vitamin pill, and you'd be giving the same thing ... but better because the chicken is raw ... without having to give the garbage of corn, gluten, wheat, and beet pulp ... and that you could do so at a fraction of the cost?

Jack Jack lets play a game of tag!!. 1 who sais these products are shit beside you (please dont come up with a food wizer) and 2 have you ever fed these ingriedeinses without the others to your dog to find out if a dog digest them ore not . 3 we have shown in the video https://sites.google.com/site/greenriverworkingdogsupplies/myth-busting from where we recreate the same water to raw meat contense were digestabilety is the same as with raw feeding . can you please ecsplain what the filler is in raw meat as shit IS comeing out of the dog when feeding raw.... and the stool weight is the same as the soakt kibbel diet......... if not then your premature wafe stuf of. from where you have NO PROOVE they are not diguestif or are shit ingriedienses for that matter. 3 IF SO then i rather feed these shit ingridences known to you as filler insted of feeding my dog a INBALANCED raw diet FULL of ANTIBIOTICS and HORMONS who in contrary to kibbel ""filler"" ingriediences wil not leave the body like a ""filler"" .. as they go tru the system in a diferend way. as for the costs Jack how about 0.30 to 0.70 cents a day per dog...........

As for Skipper. Dog lovers gold is made bij this company . http://www.ga-petfoodpartners.co.uk/ its a comon resipy made bij this company from where you can ad ore take away a couple of ingriedienses and have you BS story and own bag wrapt around it..... http://www.goldenacres.co.uk/_uploads/downloads/Platinum%202011-12.pdf Dog lovers gold has NO own company who produces it. they have a ware house across on the other side of the north sea. sins Red Mills was introduced and Gain , and lots of people whend to these kibbles they (resendly) quikly took on a higher protien known formula from this company to sell..make no mistake Dog Lovers gold is a PET food kibbel. not a working dog kibbel.....

[Doc Ellis]

saying you know whats in kibble and the actual quality of it is kinda like saying you know how a dogs bred when you werent there. you can have faith or you can put exactly what you want or youre dogs need in there feed bowl. sure the chickens may have been treated for coccidia but youre gonna treat the dog as a pup with the same stuff.

[Limey Kennels]

Aint there a flip siide to that coin!! when feeding RAW...................... and are you ore anybodyels able to balance the raw diet like ALL the special ingriedeinces in lets say Gain kibbel out in order they can win and race 80/100.000 usd!!..
The awnser is NO..
LOOK again. i DONT condome feeding raw . im just against the unbeliveble blind sighted BS, and lias that are spread in order to get people of kibbel to feed raw. its al based of fear. and nothing els.......