connollys redmill dry food ,how does it compare to the better dry food

[projectx]

Hi guys i have seen this connollys redmill greyhound feed , i just wonder how it compares to the better dry feed out there thats got the better ingriedients for the dogs to assimilate and digest better, and if this ones any good also.


http://www.redmills.co.uk/uk/greyhound/products/product/?id=538&parent=439

[Limey Kennels]

We feed our dogs with Red Mills and sins resendly we are testing USA brand Gain ... we just made a couple of short video,s, about diguestebilety and how waist/ turd should looks like when it exits a dog. also how you ""should"" feed dry bibble, and the weight of the waist that comes out.....

[projectx]

Hi limey , how do you find redmills and which one did you use xcell? it looks ok from the ingredients and it has no corn ,unlike the gain feed which does use corn ,but whats the cost of the gain feed i know the redmills xcell is 35 euros .

[Limey Kennels]

Overhere there are 2 camps one swears useing Red mills and one groop swears using Gain. Sins we got a desend size groop of greyhound people asking for it we started to cell it .
We are just started to use gain and testing it as we speak.
Red Mills has been our chooice of Kibble. But a large groop of my sons custumours are very high on Gain.
We mainly feed red mill racer to our dogs in rest and light duty work . and swichs to Xell when work gets more serius.
The Tracker is for people who love to feed there own raw meat protien sours. Both brands have been specialy fomulated for the masif strain greyhounds take on there joints bones muscles ecetera costs of Gain is kinda the same . its being imported in bulk carriers from the USA and put in bags in Ireland!!. its a tax thing to keep prices douwn . Also due to the NO VAT tax on food of profesional working feeds/kibbel being it for horses ore dogs. they are able to maintain very cheap prices. rumour has it that there are many people race there animals .
Not al of them are eqal in wealth and to protect these animals being raced under ore on cheaper less healthyer diets they(the govermend) took the VAT/tax of these foods. wich wil benifit the animals....

[projectx]

Hi limey what do you think about the ingredients in redmills xcell compared to gain, gain has maize( corn) and redmills does not but does have cereal (not sure which) but what do you think ,and how did you like the redmills , on the dogs.

[Limey Kennels]

wel what can i say again we have two camps here one swears bij Red Mills one camp is compleatly Gain. right now we are making a little you tube clip. about sirin raw feeding/ drij kibble Myths . About diguestion and smelly loose stool and ecsesif drinking, wich is claimed to up the Raw feeding myth... the you tube clip is made using Red Mills Racer.. you wil be sirprized how little to none of those myths hold ground..

[Limey Kennels]

http://youtu.be/d_xLCaIJrv4 . the food wil costs 0.70 euro cent per day for one dog . wich comes douwn to 1usd!!.....It contains EVERYTING a dog needs...when on the chain ore kenneld up ore being a couch potato. with light to medium work.

[R2L]

Limey i might try red mills to see for myself. Im far from satisfied with dlg

[Limey Kennels]

R2L Be my guest!!..

[Doc Ellis]

what are the protien sources of this food?

[Doc Ellis]

and how big of a bag

[R2L]

Limey Kennels,

I was checking out the red mills feed but i couldnt find something about the % of carhybodrates in it.

I'm looking for a feed with less protein for dogs in rest, since mine get really soft stool from dog lovers gold. But i see racer has the same % protein in it. I see tracker has only 20 % but is it necessary to supplement tracker or is t a complete food on its own, for dogs in rest?

Would you use Xcel yourself when dogs are in training? I like to condition on mainly fat, but since this feed is originally designed for racing dogs i have the feeling its to much based on carbohydrates. You can say bulldogs are related to greyhounds, but the work they do is far from the same. In which way would Xcel be superior compared to kibbles like royal canin energy 4800 and eukanuba working and endurance (which arnt designed for greyhounds)?

[projectx]

Have you gone to the website and looked at the info , or otherwise just email them and ask about the carb content.

http://www.redmills.co.uk/uk/greyhound/products/product/?id=538&parent=439

[Limey Kennels]

Limey Kennels,

I was checking out the red mills feed but i couldnt find something about the % of carhybodrates in it.

I'm looking for a feed with less protein for dogs in rest, since mine get really soft stool from dog lovers gold. But i see racer has the same % protein in it. I see tracker has only 20 % but is it necessary to supplement tracker or is t a complete food on its own, for dogs in rest?

Would you use Xcel yourself when dogs are in training? I like to condition on mainly fat, but since this feed is originally designed for racing dogs i have the feeling its to much based on carbohydrates. You can say bulldogs are related to greyhounds, but the work they do is far from the same. In which way would Xcel be superior compared to kibbles like royal canin energy 4800 and eukanuba working and endurance (which arnt designed for greyhounds)?
The man who swichst from raw to drij kibble who i posted a picture of is feeding his dogs the tracker of season. its a 20%/11% protien fat mixture. there is a lot of carbs in there. but he feeds it to his outside dogs in winter time. and is very contend with it as are others feeing it . carbs do makes them FAT .Personaly for my dogs its just alittle to less protien. thats why i feed them racer and swithst Gain 28 to some dogs diet. but it varies with bloodlines and dogs.. if you have a problem with Dog lovers gold you might feed to mutch ore ad to mutch water food contens (if you soak). just cut back on there kibble and look for that perfect stool. if that thussend work your bound to look for something that works beter for them.. we DO feed Xell and resendly Gain record breaker when dogs are being workt.
altho Greyhounds are sprinters and stayer, there sporting activeties are mainly track racing yes. BUT do realize that they use MASSIF amounds of energy when racing. and maintaining the massif amounds of muscle bulk asks for superior food.
at the same time there are PLENTY of greyhounds used on hunting parties ofthen crossed with the pitbull terrier called lurches(alredy done 200 years ago hensh both greyhound and pitbull terrier are more related then people realize and why they race with muzzles on as they can kill ethother fighting witch is stil in them from the pitbull cross made 150 / 200years ago). and these dogs can go for hours.
When it comes to diferend kibble like eucanuba wich was our chooice back then Xell is superior in every way . we used to feed the racer back then as the Xell was not around and we needed to imported it . due to this wealso fed Eucanuba it was a far beter brand back then it is today . .. the 4800 of Royal canine i cant judge upon as we stay wel clear of PET foods today. understand that Red Mills make a pet line as wel . wich we would NOT use ore feed that eather. it IS true that there is a lot of CRAP drij food out there . hensh we whent for a kibble like Red Mills and Gain thats being used for dogs that race for stakes upto 100.000 usd...

[projectx]

The man who swichst from raw to drij kibble who i posted a picture of is feeding his dogs the tracker of season. its a 20%/11% protien fat mixture. there is a lot of carbs in there. but he feeds it to his outside dogs in winter time. and is very contend with it as are others feeing it . carbs do makes them FAT .Personaly for my dogs its just alittle to less protien. thats why i feed them racer and swithst Gain 28 to some dogs diet. but it varies with bloodlines and dogs.. if you have a problem with Dog lovers gold you might feed to mutch ore ad to mutch water food contens (if you soak). just cut back on there kibble and look for that perfect stool. if that thussend work your bound to look for something that works beter for them.. we DO feed Xell and resendly Gain record breaker when dogs are being workt.
altho Greyhounds are sprinters and stayer, there sporting activeties are mainly track racing yes. BUT do realize that they use MASSIF amounds of energy when racing. and maintaining the massif amounds of muscle bulk asks for superior food.
at the same time there are PLENTY of greyhounds used on hunting parties ofthen crossed with the pitbull terrier called lurches(alredy done 200 years ago hensh both greyhound and pitbull terrier are more related then people realize and why they race with muzzles on as they can kill ethother fighting witch is stil in them from the pitbull cross made 150 / 200years ago). and these dogs can go for hours.
When it comes to diferend kibble like eucanuba wich was our chooice back then Xell is superior in every way . we used to feed the racer back then as the Xell was not around and we needed to imported it . due to this wealso fed Eucanuba it was a far beter brand back then it is today . .. the 4800 of Royal canine i cant judge upon as we stay wel clear of PET foods today. understand that Red Mills make a pet line as wel . wich we would NOT use ore feed that eather. it IS true that there is a lot of CRAP drij food out there . hensh we whent for a kibble like Red Mills and Gain thats being used for dogs that race for stakes upto 100.000 usd...

Gains uses maize/corn in its feed ,which as we know is no use to a dog ,and is found in most of the brands that use it as a filler insttead of better ingreidients, but then again you get waht you pay for in life , and the cost of gains and redmill is reasonably priced , so there is some compromise in the quality of every ingriedient ,compared to a brand that uses the best of ingredients.Redmills has cereal, which is maybe maize , but probably if cost is important, then trying to find a decent kibble is going to be hard.In the end raw is the best , as the food is not processed to shit like kibble is ,but i was looking at the redmill and gain, and maybe for the pirce its not bad if you overlook the maize/corn content and maybe using there tracker kibble and raw is a good compromise ,but if time is not improtant,then raw has to be better for the dog .

[Limey Kennels]

Projectx you may be familier with the usa racing scene. particulair drag racing/road racing. custom build american v8,s . wel to get horse power they do all sorts of things . one of them is head porting the engine heads to get a better flow. beter flow is more air x gasoline is a bigger bang!!..
In resend yesrs very ecspensif CNC porting machines have taken over the old fasion way of hand porting . and has become very populair umongst the younger crouwd.
However what they do not realize is that in order to used sutch a machine it has to be programed.
and they use heads that are ported bij man itself..
in that aspect a CNC machine therfore is only as good as the program that is used from a hand porter engine head. . with this i try to tell you that al those so called Kibble/ food wizers who tell you which food is good en wich one isend. bij the contense used to formulate the food is based on what they are told themselfs ore what so called sientific studies have brought to light!!.

However First hand 20/30 ore 40 years of ecsperienced working with our breed feeding them. doing the tings that are done with our breed, is something these people cant ore dont take with them in there final judgemend!!!!. its like myself, i rather have a custome head porter working on my racing heads then to belive a nice CNC program who on paper give the the same ore iven BETER headflow. while my heads might have a little less flow they can do mutch beter, if the flow gives performance in the low mid ore highend range of my engines performance..

Unfortunatly on the race track we dont mach ore race nrs that are given of the flow bensh on the dyno machines.
real live testing and racing gives a compleat diferend outcome!!!!..

A dog can perfectly wel diguest wel prepeard corn / maize no problem . it depends if its a low end el cheapo kibble ore a highend mid level cost specific brand of dog food.. that makes all the diferens. food wizers to me are worthless. in such a way where the quality of the dogfood is detirmend what a dog can do eating it..... NOT what the food wizer tells you the way it has been made of. a greyhound and some other working breeds would burn up in seconds racing on Orijen high protien food to give you a aczample as to high protien is known to do that. yet acording to a foodwizer its umongst the best out there and very pricy.................

[TFX]

Am I missing something here with this Red Mills feed? How is a dry feed product that has "Cereals" as it's most prominent ingredient even being considered as a quality dry feed choice? :shocked:

[Limey Kennels]

I gues in a 500.000.000$$ racing industry they know stuf you dont...

[tasoschatz]

There is also another multibillion industry that involves all the pro-athletes from every sport, they do indorse products, do you believe they use all of them?

[R2L]

I bet the guys preparing the dogs for such races know a lot about feeding, but that doesnt mean some bag meant for a totally different sport is instantly most suitable for our dogs. Like if marathon walkers would eat the same feed as 50/100 meter sprinters.

I would like to see a well conditioned bulldog on red mills in real life. Cause im getting pretty bored again :(

[OGDOGG]

R2L, when it comes to conditioning, it doesn't matter what you put in a bulldog. It's all about how knowledgeable and skillful a person is. A good conditioner could feed his dog ol'roy from Walmart and have that dog looking like a million bucks. But if an amateur use the same feed, that dog will look like shit and perform like shit.
The better you feed the dog, the less you need to work him. The shittier the feed the harder you have to push the dog to work. A dog's kidneys can only go through so many keeps and punishments.

[Limey Kennels]

There is also another multibillion industry that involves all the pro-athletes from every sport, they do indorse products, do you believe they use all of them?

Thats a silly question!!.

[Limey Kennels]

I bet the guys preparing the dogs for such races know a lot about feeding, but that doesnt mean some bag meant for a totally different sport is instantly most suitable for our dogs. Like if marathon walkers would eat the same feed as 50/100 meter sprinters.

I would like to see a well conditioned bulldog on red mills in real life. Cause im getting pretty bored again :(Buy some and start working one....

[TFX]

I gues in a 500.000.000$$ racing industry they know stuf you dont...

Yeah Limey, and Fat Bill once put out a keep that called for using Corn Flakes. He probably won more shows that me too, but that doesn't mean the guy knows anything about nutrition. Smith & Walton fed Ol' Roy when I got there, and he won a lot of shows too. Winning contests and making a profit on the kennel isn't a good measure of sound nutritional choices. In fact, if profitability is a key driver, poor nutrition likely will provide a much more attractive return on investment.

Generally dog people of any fancy are blind idiots following idiots with a little more, yet still limited vision. So these "knowledgable" Greyhound fanciers may not be knowledgeable whatsoever. In fact, I am supposing that because they keep hundreds and hundreds of dogs and cull a majority of them, that this feed choice has much more to do with economics than it does nutritional benefits.;)

[tasoschatz]

So, when some dog owners endorse whatever kibble they do, we have a serious comment, when we make the same talk about humans, it is silly... Well, I simply do not accept that there aren't financial interests involved through promotion etc in dog races, I guess it is a personal perception thing.
Seriously speaking although, and I mean it in a sincere manner, I haven't seen anywhere that heat procedure for lets say kibble preparation destroys hormones and antibiotics, doesn't mean it isn't true, but I would like to see some credible info source on that matter.
What I have seen is animal industrial food manufacturing, although not dog kibble, human athletes, 2004 olympic games menu, university studies, personally beeing a subject in some etc etc. In full honesty, if I was to be convinced that dog kibble is of such high level, maybe I would convince myself to feed on that and live for 100 years.

[Limey Kennels]

Yeah Limey, and Fat Bill once put out a keep that called for using Corn Flakes. He probably won more shows that me too, but that doesn't mean the guy knows anything about nutrition. Smith & Walton fed Ol' Roy when I got there, and he won a lot of shows too. Winning contests and making a profit on the kennel isn't a good measure of sound nutritional choices. In fact, if profitability is a key driver, poor nutrition likely will provide a much more attractive return on investment.

Generally dog people of any fancy are blind idiots following idiots with a little more, yet still limited vision. So these "knowledgable" Greyhound fanciers may not be knowledgeable whatsoever. In fact, I am supposing that because they keep hundreds and hundreds of dogs and cull a majority of them, that this feed choice has much more to do with economics than it does nutritional benefits.;)
OK the only thing THEY the greyhound people are doing WRONG is that they breed BEST TO BEST ONLY. and as WE KNOW the random out come of producing high quality animals is of a far less %%%... In what your saying about idiots fallowing Idiots . , is ACZACKLY THE REZEN ME being one of the few who questions raw feeding diets as being superior..
Feeding raw its being presented in sutch a way that if your making coments against it your a fool and dont know shijt and your doing your dogs wrong blablablabla. Al BS
as it isend al that great in the first place. As it has as many weak points and in my point of vieuw iven more to it as kibble feeding .. EVERYTING being claimed is hypt up with NO solid background . to put fear in people that Kibble is bad wrong and dangeres for your dogs.. compleatly disreguarding the many flaws in raw diets....

[Limey Kennels]

So, when some dog owners endorse whatever kibble they do, we have a serious comment, when we make the same talk about humans, it is silly... Well, I simply do not accept that there aren't financial interests involved through promotion etc in dog races, I guess it is a personal perception thing.
Seriously speaking although, and I mean it in a sincere manner, I haven't seen anywhere that heat procedure for lets say kibble preparation destroys hormones and antibiotics, doesn't mean it isn't true, but I would like to see some credible info source on that matter.
What I have seen is animal industrial food manufacturing, although not dog kibble, human athletes, 2004 olympic games menu, university studies, personally beeing a subject in some etc etc. In full honesty, if I was to be convinced that dog kibble is of such high level, maybe I would convince myself to feed on that and live for 100 years.

It was a silly question because nobody is the same and everybody has to tailor made what kind of suplemends work for him ore her. one person has a lack in one nutriend being it vitamins ore minerals ecetera .then the other. .. same with sporting animals.....
And ofcours there is MAJOR finansual intrest involved same as with meat and kibble. everybody likes to promote and talk about the benifits and disreguard the negatif side efects of there products. Its up to YOU to find out and weigh it all douwn in what you belive is the best thin to do for your life your kinds and your dogs for that matter.
We all know if we kook our vegies to long it wil distroi the goodies. we al know that the vitamins in petatos are in the skin. we all know when we boil our meat we draw the good stuff out and distroi lots of nutriense in the meat (like amino asids) we all know that we have to kook our food to break douwn the crap thats being used in ore on our vegies and meat.
We all know that antibiotic use today in our life stock is a imidiat danger to us and future generations as bacteria strains are getting imume. we all know that dogs have a diferend tast and smell then we do so hens they like kibble and we dont.
and MOST of us know that it is bij LAW in lots of countries that pet food is made to be used for human consumption in time for crisis of any kind... And you have no idea how many people DO eat pet food these days!!!!!!...

[TFX]

OK the only thing THEY the greyhound people are doing WRONG is that they breed BEST TO BEST ONLY. and as WE KNOW the random out come of producing high quality animals is of a far less %%%... In what your saying about idiots fallowing Idiots . , is ACZACKLY THE REZEN ME being one of the few who questions raw feeding diets as being superior..
Feeding raw its being presented in sutch a way that if your making coments against it your a fool and dont know shijt and your doing your dogs wrong blablablabla. Al BS
as it isend al that great in the first place. As it has as many weak points and in my point of vieuw iven more to it as kibble feeding .. EVERYTING being claimed is hypt up with NO solid background . to put fear in people that Kibble is bad wrong and dangeres for your dogs.. compleatly disreguarding the many flaws in raw diets....

I still feed a quality kibble to my adult dogs, and my dogs live a long, long time. So please don't lump me in with the "raw only" feeders. I do start the pups on raw for the first few months, but I am very busy and have no time at this stage of my life to deal with raw food prep on an ongoing basis.

With that said, A) I think in most cases a raw diet is actually superior, and B) any kibble with "cereal" as it's top ingredient is certainly not a quality kibble.

[Limey Kennels]

I dont belive, infact i cant recall nor belived i have acused you of being a raw feeder nor would i care thats al up to you. If i heurt your feelings about that and ore if you belived i did so then im sorry!.
we start al our pups on a mixure of raw minsed meat and soakt kibble. and slowly over the cours of 3 weeks take the minst meat out..its used as a kick starter nothing more ore less. Now as for cereal. Tell me, no show me why that would be a bad kibble.(dont use food wizers) let me remind you that the indonesian and philipien Dingo,s main Diet is carbs. in the likes of frutes riced ecetera. and then meat in the likes of small animals lizzards ecetera.. using a lower protien (27%) kibble with sereal as a maintinense food is no problem and can be givven til the dog dies of natural cases.and lots of them do grow old upto 15 years living on it..
when you start working a dog protien(29/32%) based as the nr 1 and 2 ingriediens in descending order by weight is askt for yes.
Bij the way we kickt Fat bills a.s in such a way he whent broke and came asking for a loan to buy a ticket to fly home!! he was that convinsed putting his money up...... We declined.

[tasoschatz]

People eat dog food due to financial need, not choice. WE do know many things, it seems that in this forum, as in g-d and you talking high about Eukanuba, the majority is for raw feeding so , WE should be enough of an answer? I never used the majority factor in our conversations, I just tried repeatedly to give you an oportunity to present scientific facts, in my opinion you haven't.
Enough from me on feeding subject, if you ever decide to post a show preperation programme with training included, then I will bother you again.

[Officially Retired]

Yeah Limey, and Fat Bill once put out a keep that called for using Corn Flakes. He probably won more shows that me too, but that doesn't mean the guy knows anything about nutrition. Smith & Walton fed Ol' Roy when I got there, and he won a lot of shows too. Winning contests and making a profit on the kennel isn't a good measure of sound nutritional choices. In fact, if profitability is a key driver, poor nutrition likely will provide a much more attractive return on investment.

Generally dog people of any fancy are blind idiots following idiots with a little more, yet still limited vision. So these "knowledgable" Greyhound fanciers may not be knowledgeable whatsoever. In fact, I am supposing that because they keep hundreds and hundreds of dogs and cull a majority of them, that this feed choice has much more to do with economics than it does nutritional benefits.;)

Finally, a sensible post.

It's pretty much this simple: Mohammad Ali eating McDonald's french fries would probably have whipped 99% of humanity in a boxing match, even if those people ate great food, but that doesn't make french fries "good food."

Every "old timer" idiot out there thinks because his dog wins a match that his "feed keep" is what won the match :rolleyes:

Wrong! All it means is the guy knows a "Mohammad Ali" when he sees one and can put him in decent shape. One thing old timers generally get right is what a good dog is, how to find its best weight, and how to keep him in good condition ... in fact a good dog at its best weight, right there, is hard to beat coming right off the chain fed kibble.

But that does NOT mean kibble is "optimal nutrition" nor that coming off the chain is "optimal condition."

Jack

PS: The only thing I disagree with is the long term economics of feeding poorly mean shorter lives, more vet bills, and more problems down the road. Long term, it is actually less costly to feed raw. Better stated, long term feeding raw is an investment into your dogs.

[Limey Kennels]

People eat dog food due to financial need, not choice. WE do know many things, it seems that in this forum, as in g-d and you talking high about Eukanuba, the majority is for raw feeding so , WE should be enough of an answer? I never used the majority factor in our conversations, I just tried repeatedly to give you an oportunity to present scientific facts, in my opinion you haven't.
Enough from me on feeding subject, if you ever decide to post a show preperation programme with training included, then I will bother you again. there is a fip side to that coin!. one this post is about o connoly red milss/Gain .NOT about Eucanuba. 2 YOU ore ANOBODY ELS show me sientific facts that raw feeding is and works beter then quality kibble. 3 that the majorety on this forum feeds kibble is nothing more then spieces looking for spiecies. ore soulmates looking for another AND hasend bee proven at al. last time i chekt the POLL on raw meat vs kibble, then look at the amound of paying MEMBERS it thussend prove anyting... this thussend make you ore anybody els right!!...

[Limey Kennels]

Finally, a sensible post.

It's pretty much this simple: Mohammad Ali eating McDonald's french fries would probably have whipped 99% of humanity in a boxing match, even if those people ate great food, but that doesn't make french fries "good food."

Every "old timer" idiot out there thinks because his dog wins a match that his "feed keep" is what won the match :rolleyes:

Wrong! All it means is the guy knows a "Mohammad Ali" when he sees one and can put him in decent shape. One thing old timers generally get right is what a good dog is, how to find its best weight, and how to keep him in good condition ... in fact a good dog at its best weight, right there, is hard to beat coming right off the chain fed kibble.

But that does NOT mean kibble is "optimal nutrition" nor that coming off the chain is "optimal condition."

Jack

PS: The only thing I disagree with is the long term economics of feeding poorly mean shorter lives, more vet bills, and more problems down the road. Long term, it is actually less costly to feed raw. Better stated, long term feeding raw is an investment into your dogs.

Jack dont you see how rediculees your post looks like??.. so al the idiot oldtimers DO KNOW how to reconize a good dog when they see one, but dont know and have no clue how to feed them and at the same time take a huge gamble of putting lots and lots of money on these dogs!!!. and are only able to put them in desend shape!!. and that the dogs kept on the chain at ideal weigh fed on kibble coming right of the chain is hard to beat!!!!!!!!!!. yet feeding kibble is not IDEAL.. you know how rediculess and trivializing that looks.....
And jack thuse that mean that people who feed raw have crap dogs in the first place to up the chanses of winning??.. last but not least YOU have NOT been feeding kibble long enoughf to know if they live longer on raw!!. and there is no sientific evidens that that is the case . nor have you been a sporting dogman long enoughf yourself to be able to have tested that.... a long time ago a very wel respected dogman told me. that the diferense in feeding the right and bad kibble is that the dog in both cases wil grow just as old as the internal biologicel clock is tikking reguardless. But when feeding him better kibble is feeding him a more HEALTYER life. compeard to feeding him bad kibble. I know this line has its flaws as wel. but i gues you get the picture. and 90% of the dogs dont grow old in the first place REGURADLESS what your feeding them.. fact is you can trow and state everyting you can ore feel doing about Raw vs Kibble and there wil ALWAYS be a imidiat awnser to counter it and wave it of as BS..

[R2L]

the thing about these oldtimers is. yes they knew how to make the right weight. but knowledge and understanding about feeding has advanced trough all the years. so if they knew then what we know now they probably know some stuff they did was ridiculous. some people though, keep sticking in the past regardless.

[Limey Kennels]

R2L last time i chekt feeding raw WAS done bij the oltimers uptil the quality Kibbel arived!!. then both the kibbel and raw where mickst!!. and later raw in its intyer wassend used in a keep . but raw scraps where used to feed the dogs on the chain. are you telling me that feeding raw today was any diferend then feeding raw yesterday!!??.. i belive for one that the meat of yesterday was of SUPERIOR quality then the raw meat today same goze for vegies.. the 3 fold of the human population sins those days have put so mutch PRESSURE on food production that mankind had to geneticly manipulated vegies and yes life stock in order to produce more meat to keep up with the food demands today. not to mention the use of MASSIF chemicals in the likes of hormons and antibiotics to make sure that these animals who are packt and stackt together so tighly that diseases are iminend hensh the cemical treadmends. are you telling me thats a step forward!!!... one posted that there are kibble redraws do to mistakes being made producing poisions bags of dogfood. ignorense hase set in and they compleatly DISREGUARD the massif amounds of meat scadals there are the world over. in sutch a way that the couple of bad dogfood redraws are a non issiuew compeard to the meat industry fu.kups..Bij the way have you been actif enoughf to make sutch a commend in saying your lines above. ore is this a feeling and ore a belive that is not proven on facts...

[tasoschatz]

I asked repeatedly for some science that cooking or whatever other drying procedure destroys a considerable amount of antibiotics and / or hormones in the meat. It is either known for a fact or not, I assume that because of human consumption of all these meats, there should be some scientific papers at least, if it is a fact, that cooking destroys antibiotics. I am not aware of any.
Research can be first or second hand. First hand is in vivo or in vitro, so real life tests or experiments in a tube. Second hand is research already done and existing in data bases and also the opinion of experienced experts. I judge that the majority in every forum says, I mean the members whose posts I read not just everybody, that raw feeding is better, plain and simple. Many among them have tried both ways for years. The reasons for this, I assume that raw is better, may seems obvious to most and not taking into account antibiotics etc the way you do, but it doesn't mean it isn't true.

[R2L]

Limey, i was aiming for stuff like cornflakes/carbohydrate loading in extension to what TFX said. Are you telling me knowledge/understanding about feeding dogs hasnt improved the last 30 years? Being able to find the right weight has nothing to do with that. What does my activity got to do with it? I been active enough to know the better dog will win regardless the dog was in worse shape then before the keep. Iv seen the other dog's "turbo start" and what happened after that. Grtz

[Officially Retired]

Jack dont you see how rediculees your post looks like??.. so al the idiot oldtimers DO KNOW how to reconize a good dog when they see one, but dont know and have no clue how to feed them and at the same time take a huge gamble of putting lots and lots of money on these dogs!!!. and are only able to put them in desend shape!!. and that the dogs kept on the chain at ideal weigh fed on kibble coming right of the chain is hard to beat!!!!!!!!!!. yet feeding kibble is not IDEAL.. you know how rediculess and trivializing that looks.....

My post is not as ridiculous as your spelling :lol:

Nor is it as ridiculous as your posture that, just because a man knows what a badass dog looks like, that this suddenly makes him an expert in either nutrition or in medicine. Many, if not MOST, old timers are utterly clueless in both regards. For example, I know an old timer who's been doing dogs since the mid-60s, who has matched into more legendary dogs than you've ever seen, who's gone into Mayfield, Burton, Indian Sonny, Hargrove, Crenshaw, ete., etc. ... and yet who STILL thinks "pennicillum" is the best antibiotic for wound care (and, like you, he can't even pronounce or spell the word right). And, as far as nutrition goes, this man's big "feed keep" was Diamond Dogfood, some liver, and a can of vegetables. That's it. Yet this man faced and made more Grand Champions throughout his 50 years of being in the fast lane than anyone you know.

So no, I don't think my position (that there are many old-timers, who know what a good dog looks like, but who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground on the subject of meds or nutrition) is ridiculous at all. It is pretty much right on the money.




jack thuse that mean that people who feed raw have crap dogs in the first place to up the chanses of winning??.. last but not least YOU have NOT been feeding kibble long enoughf to know if they live longer on raw!!. and there is no sientific evidens that that is the case . nor have you been a sporting dogman long enoughf yourself to be able to have tested that....

Dude, you're really starting to sound foolish. You actually think you're in a position to know something about "me" or my feeding habits!

First of all, I have been into sporting dogs for 23 years.

Secondly, regarding "all raw feeders having crap dogs," this is simply an asinine statement ... especially coming from a man who just lost to a raw-fed dog (don't think I don't know ;) )
Moreover, speaking of old timers compared to the newer generation, and regarding that same old man above, I stayed on a piece of property that guy owned for 6 years. Yet still, with all that experience, EVERY time I rolled one of my dogs into one of the old man's dogs "he" is the one who picked up. In short, the man knew how to "buy" a great match dog that he "saw" ... but he could never figure out how to breed them ;)

Thirdly, I have fed a larger yard of dogs than you ever have (an average of 40-50 dogs at one time) ... and I have done so for 14 years BEFORE I ever fed raw. So I have plenty of experience feeding kibble. I have also exclusively fed ONE family of dogs during the entire time, comparing the results of "kibble versus raw" not to just dogs in general, but to the same line of dogs to boot. That means I have MORE experience feeding kibble to MORE dogs than you do.

Now then, I have only been feeding raw exclusively since 2006 ... to the same family of dogs ... and, when I started doing this, I had 85 dogs at the time ... ALL of whom had been fed kibble up to that point ... and ALL of whom immediately looked, felt, and acted better within 1-3 months of the change. Moreover, my line of dogs tends to have low fertility in a lot of the males (when fed kibble) and that problem UTTERLY disappeared when I fed raw. I also had many dogs die of cancer at 4-7 years of age, fed kibble, and NEVER had that happen when I fed raw. Sure, my dogs still die like anyone else's, but the difference in longevity, general health, and reproductive fertility was dramatically improved when I started feeding raw.

So please don't sit there in your little fantasy world of ZERO experience feeding raw and preach to "me" about what "you" know about feeding raw ... because it's next to nothing ...

Because, in the end, the truth is those experienced dog men ... who DO continuously learn about about meds, nutrition, etc. ... make THE most knowledgeable dogmen of today ... NOT the ones who may have learned what a good dog looks like "years ago" ... but who stay in the dark ages on these other critical subjects :idea:





sporting dogman long enoughf yourself to be able to have tested that.... a long time ago a very wel respected dogman told me. that the diferense in feeding the right and bad kibble is that the dog in both cases wil grow just as old as the internal biologicel clock is tikking reguardless. But when feeding him better kibble is feeding him a more HEALTYER life. compeard to feeding him bad kibble.

I certainly agree that there is "good kibble" and "bad kibble" ... that is absolutely correct.

But what you cannot seem to fathom is NO kibble is EVER as good (after being cooked into a little brown pellet) as the raw, natural components it started out as BEFORE it was cooked into a pellet.




I know this line has its flaws as wel. but i gues you get the picture. and 90% of the dogs dont grow old in the first place REGURADLESS what your feeding them.. you fact is you can trow and state everyting can ore feel doing about Raw vs Kibble and there wil ALWAYS be a imidiat awnser to counter it and wave it of as BS..

There is no BS here except the inane notion that "little brown pellets" are more optimal in nutritional value than the natural, raw ingredients they started out as.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

I can tell you this, I fed nature's variety instinct kibble for the past year, and it's the best kibble I ever fed. However, Machobear still locked his paws raw. I changed to the exact same feed but with freeze dried raw, and with just that tiny bit of raw, all food allergies disappeared. And the coats are fantastic. As far as fertility is concerned, with the kibble on its own, I took machobear to the clinic to freeze semen, and all I got was 10 straws. After 3 months of the same kibble with freeze dried raw, I took him to get drawn, and he gave me 17 straws. Just imagine if I gave complete raw? There is no argument here. The proof is in the pudding, NO KIBBLE CAN COMPETE WITH RAW. PERIOD. Like I've said though, if you must feed kibble, feed Natures Variety Instinct with Freeze dried boost.

[EWO]

Very good post. What people feed is driven by economics more so that what is the better nutrition. A guy that has 60-70 dogs would save money feeding RAW but if he has a full time job that is not the dogs, odds are he does not have the time to take advantage of the costs or the nutritional benefit, thus he feeds from a bag.
Secondly, lots of stuff in the dogs is the blind following the blind. If a guy is winning a bunch of matches feeding corn flakes there will be a ton of people following suit. These followers will never ask why or look for another way because if 'ol Joe is winning on corn flakes then it will be Kelloggs for me as well. Happens in lots of areas other than dogs. In kids baseball if the big kid hits one to the fence with a big bat then all the little kids want to hit with that same big bat on their next trip to the plate. So if people see someone winning on corn flakes they will be using corn flakes as well.
Thirdly, my brother in law hunts foxes/coyotes both in the pens and on the outside. His dogs consistently place and win hunts. He has some of the nicest looking hounds anywhere and they perform. 6-8 years ago he switched from cheap bag dog food to day old bread from the food bank. Wheat, white, rye, sour dough, you name it. He gets a pick up truck load for $20. He feeds all his dogs (maybe 40 or so) for about $40 to $60 a month. Straight bread. Deer carcass in the winter but bread is the staple year round. I told him 6-8 years ago his dogs would not hold up on bread. He is winning with the bread feed plan. His dogs are healthy looking. His older females (8) are still throwing pups. His older males are doing the same. I have never used corn flakes myslef, but on the days when I spend hours cutting meat, juicing vegetables and packaging a weeks worth of food I often find myself thinking about the bread route myself. LOL EWO





Yeah Limey, and Fat Bill once put out a keep that called for using Corn Flakes. He probably won more shows that me too, but that doesn't mean the guy knows anything about nutrition. Smith & Walton fed Ol' Roy when I got there, and he won a lot of shows too. Winning contests and making a profit on the kennel isn't a good measure of sound nutritional choices. In fact, if profitability is a key driver, poor nutrition likely will provide a much more attractive return on investment.

Generally dog people of any fancy are blind idiots following idiots with a little more, yet still limited vision. So these "knowledgable" Greyhound fanciers may not be knowledgeable whatsoever. In fact, I am supposing that because they keep hundreds and hundreds of dogs and cull a majority of them, that this feed choice has much more to do with economics than it does nutritional benefits.;)

[Limey Kennels]

Jack a man like you should leave the spelling thing as it is , thats for ignorend people. you know my spelling from way back in the late 90,s of the previus century.
when I stoot bij you giving you moral suport where the intire world was against you, and when you had to leave your home. no need to endors you words bij using my spelling against me thats low class Jack....
You have not been actif enoughf as a sportsman in such a way that you can claim!!. Nor whats the best way and you know it.. I NEVER CLAIMED that raw feeders have CRAP dogs. i ASKT if they have, , Thats a compleat diferend thing Jack . and to again endors your way ore words to tell the world about a show we had, is compleat idiotic and dangeres and desperate in order to stop me off ore redicule me!!. This is the same as putting it in the newspappers. And for the record in my return post to you. wat did my post said. It was a very tight inbred brood dog that needed to be chekt out i order to be qualified as sutch!. not even match worthy in way of being aworking stabderd dog. and no more worth then putting a crate of beer on so to speak.. so dont pretend that one bird in the sky makes a flock..AS I ALREDY TOLD YOU......IN PRIVATE..

In contrary to you and lots of others, Brood stock of this famely is strecht to the max. iven the very inbred bred brood dogs. And yes miner amounds is put on them in order to find out. People who do these individuals are not afreight to come out at the other end of the stick.. Having clear this up and sins you let this cat out of the bag, i sirguest that you never put anything private on this forum that should not be on there ,unless i do it myself. as in your pm you wrote that my fellow country man didnt whant to compromize my privacy!!!!. So why the Hell would YOU do that JACK.. The shear fact that HE shears his info with someone that hassend f.ck all to do with what happend shows a GREAT DEAL of being a ROOKY and not being very profesional himself altho he likes to pretend he thuse....
It also tell me that over the cours of the 20 years you have been involved with these dogs you havend learnd a lot about integrety eather in doing so what you did..at the same time you screw him over bij mentioning it as im sure he trusted you enoughf to tell you!!!......as he was told and aware to shut the f.. up
As for you having fed more dogs then we ever had. then thats good for you Jack .It mearly proves that we did someting right and better!. as our famely produced a hell of a lot more quality dogs yours ever did. like more then 35 ch 3 grch and 4 rom dogs from a famely that at any given time never had more then 20 /25 individuals including pups!. and as a famely being douwn twice to only 5 dogs..due to the dangeres doglaws that hit us back then.. At the same time we have only send out/sold a handfull of dogs and the last ones where 10 years ago ""we have no agenda in selling""... So i gues that makes us iven in the ""you ever had":". Departmend..
Are you realy that ignorend in belivieng you know more about feeding when you one arend iven close in feeding dogs as long as we do . how many dogs have you actualy conditiond! Jack. and have you done so the world over on varius contignends.!!. have YOU actualy traveld the world! conditioned and fed dogs in diferend geografic parts in the world at diferend altitutes with diferend water and feeds at hand??.. Have you ever left the two states you been in feeding your dogs Jack.

now About ""QUOTE Jack "" Because, in the end, the truth is those experienced dog men ... who DO continuously learn about about meds, nutrition, etc. ... make THE most knowledgeable dogmen of today ... NOT the ones who may have learned what a good dog looks like "years ago" ... but who stay in the dark ages on these other critical subjects ""end of quote..

I asume with those dogman who stay in the dark. you obviusly point to me. let me tell you someting. WE have ALWAYS been inovatif. when it comes to feeding and conditioning. and have steard away from those rediculess old way where people use 90 days to work there dogs for more then 5 hours a day.
yes WE where umongst them when we started out working 90 days and doing 3 1/2 hours of road work and 75 min of treadmill work.... Our feeding with suplemends and conditioning has been fine tunned to sutch a way. where no dog is workt longer then 42 days and peak work is no longer then a hour walk and no longer then a 50 min treadmill sesion!!. where work and feeding and sups are indiscriminate linkt together where one can not go without the other!, And where peak condition on a dog has a window of only 3 to 4 hours befor dropping of THATS FINE TUNNINMG JACK .like a race car engine.

have you ever heard of being able to conditioning and feeding a dog in sutch a way where you can beat a better dog ten your own bij prolonging his first wind in order to work on a down that hits the wall afther 25/30 min!!. being able to do the most significant work in those 5 to 10 min where your dog has alonger wind!. just like having 2 500 hp cars at the strip, where one has to shift at 5000 rpm and the other at 6000 rpm. taking a little lead at every shift!! yet they both have the same horshe power!!.. Ore force that better dog to go along and burn himself up!!?? PUSHING ITSELF IN THE RPM RED ZONE... sure you do NEED a working dog to do so. but thats fine tunnig Jack.
lots of people today stil dont realize that LESS CAN BE MORE. working a dog for 2 ore 3 days in a row and rest them!??. And where you can beat a better dog then your own when feeding conditioning and sups are tunned into one.. you whant to talk nutritien suplemends and conditioning, and lay it out on the table???. Im sure the people here whant to see how deep the rabbit holle is.. and whant to know what REAL understanding of it al is.. and how WE have aprotchst it in one of the most up to date ways to bring a dog in shape.. bij shortining the keep over the cours of 35 years and rely more on feeding and suplemends.
Last but not least. the gross of the dogs been seen the last 15 years. 15% of the dogs have lost on quality, the rest 85% lost on FEEDING and conditioning. NOT on quality.. thats how high the level of comp is in some parts of the world......let me give tyou a hint on modern day meds and sups you every heard of ANARESP...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darbepoetin_alfa .. about treadmend barbesia gibsony wellvone atovaquon +sandoz azitromycine 10 days oraly and its gone!!.. as a barbesia treadmend ecsept for gibsoni CARBESIA(not availeble in the USA). wich at the same time can be used as a VACSINATION to stop a dog from being infected. it works for 6 weeks and can be used preventif to your dog not getting Gibsoni!! when in the fields..... make sure you use that in your necst book ore video

[EWO]

have you ever heard of being able to conditioning and feeding a dog in sutch a way where you can beat a better dog ten your own bij prolonging his first wind in order to work on a down that hits the wall afther 25/30 min!!. being able to do the most significant work in those 5 to 10 min where your dog has alonger wind!. just like having 2 500 hp cars at the strip, where one has to shift at 5000 rpm and the other at 6000 rpm. taking a little lead at every shift!! yet they both have the same horshe power!!.. Ore force that better dog to go along and burn himself up!!?? PUSHING ITSELF IN THE RPM RED ZONE... sure you do NEED a working dog to do so. but thats fine tunnig Jack.
lots of people today stil dont realize that LESS CAN BE MORE. working a dog for 2 ore 3 days in a row and rest them!??. And where you can beat a better dog then your own when feeding conditioning and sups are tunned into one.. you whant to talk nutritien suplemends and conditioning, and lay it out on the table???. Im sure the people here whant to see how deep the rabbit holle is.. and whant to know what REAL understanding of it al is.. and how WE have aprotchst it in one of the most up to date ways to bring a dog in shape.. bij shortining the keep over the cours of 35 years and rely more on feeding and suplemends.
Last but not least. the gross of the dogs been seen the last 15 years. 15% of the dogs have lost on quality, the rest 85% lost on FEEDING and conditioning. NOT on quality.. thats how high the level of comp is in some parts of the world......let me give tyou a hint on modern day meds and sups you every heard of ANARESP... copy/paste from Limey post.

We have been using this method for years. I just worded it a little differently. EWO




Exactly. Tapping back to another post it is a team sport. I like the athletic and smart game dog because then my conditioning efforts make a good contribution to the team. By him being athletic we can work him to be physically capable of handling the first wave. With his intelligence he will position himself to counter that first wave. The combination of the two will allow him to lay some pipe immediately after the first wave and continue to lay some pipe before the next. The athleticism and physicality after the first wave will decrease the height and strength of the second wave. This builds a lead. The secondary effect from this is the other dog grabs another gear to catch up. From there the amount of time his keep has made available to him in the beginning begins to decrease. He is somewhere really close to panic effort. Panic effort always burns more gas. The smart and athletic dog offsets this barrage as well. When the barrage fades that lead is increased and continues to increase as one dog fades and the athleticism (as well as the keep) takes over. The gap between the two widens with every passing minute. Credit seldom goes to this winning dog. Mostly because he did not bite shit in half at minute one. Partly because smarts and intelligence is always the underdog in comparison to mouth. When a dog uses smarts and intelligence to win there is always ten guys pit side with one at home that can beat him. If the destroyer mops the floor with one few have one for him. Just the way I have seen it. EWO

[EWO]

I learned this method in the early mid to late 90's. The entire point of the keep is to go longer than the next guy, create separation by going when he breaks and recovering before he does. I have been doing the same basic feed plan since then. There have been changes and advances that I have implemented but lots of stuff that I went with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" thought process. I agree feed and supplementation are key factors. But, I as well as a few others that were 'educated' in conditioning years ago by the same "old guy" feed very differently in the keep. One or two are out there with the latest and greatest. Another is stuck around 1980 feed/supplementation wise. I am somewhere in the middle. What we have in common (besides a good dog) is the keep.
I believe in good nutrition and good supplementation as a contributing factor but a good dog coming off a good keep is a high % winner even off corn flakes. (throw back to the other post). My point is that it takes everything to win at a high %. First and foremost it has to be a good dog. A great keep and a great feed plan will not make a good dog out of a bad one. It may hide him for a while but not very long.
I have always liked the Limey posts. I was a little slow to the internet concerning the dogs and one of the first things I ever read on the internet was the Limeys Tug story. I have always enjoyed the "Limey post". I do not always agree but enjoy the read nonetheless. We have been conditioning dogs this way for a number of years. Our dogs are fit and ready on the chain. We very seldom have a dog that needs a -pre-keep-. Our keep lasts 6 weeks as well and I am usually encouraged when I hear about the long work sessions by others. Good posts. EWO

[OGDOGG]

I agree EWO. When it comes to conditioning, I enjoy reading what Limey has to say..I understand exactly how he work his dogs because its very similar to how I work mine. I also enjoy yours too cause not a lot of people will risk keeping their dogs at pit weight or below, throughout the keep like we do

[R2L]

Who's the one making news of it now? Thought the guy was respectful for a change, but you want to start throwing mud and making excuses? Just say so cause you're going to lose. Be a man and talk to the guy if you got a problem instead of typing on some board.

[Officially Retired]

Limey, why you always have to talk smack? I mean, you have an amazing ability to ramble on about nothing, and totally wander off-topic. In case you forgot, the topic is raw vs. kibble, and the incredibly silly things you said the first time you addressed me (when I never addressed you).

I don't have time to wander down the 10-dozen aimless paths you've gone down, at the moment, because I've spent what time I have tonight answering other topics/PMs, etc.

But I'll be back to have some fun here, probably Monday night. I have other stuff to do tonight, and then a busy weekend, and I just won't have the 2+ hours it will take to dissect your insanity and put it back together again correctly ... so enjoy this while it lasts ... but, remember, nothing you've said has changed the facts about raw vs. kibble.

Oh, and before I go, since you want to "go there," actually my family of dogs has over 400 wins, 50+ Champions, and at least 10 Grand Champions ... all compiled in less time than you've been in the game ... so (I hate to burst your bubble) but your numbers don't impress me at all ... especially since you've been in longer than I have :lol:

Jack

PS: And, BTW, my keep has produced more Champions and Grand Champions, all over the world, than yours ever has or ever will. You might want to read my testimonials (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/testimonials.html) before you type another word ;)