View Full Version : Won't work at hide...what to do???
widerange
03-20-2013, 06:32 AM
I have this new group of hounds that I got a few weeks ago. Five to be exact, four are over two yrs old and one is a 10 month old pup. Yesterday after I was done cleaning out their chain spots I got out my flirt pole with a hide on it to see how each one would react to it. I walked around to each chain spot starting with the pup and ran the hide around in their chain spots for a very short time as it was pretty warm here yesterday and they was on chains. Three including the pup took right up with it and looked great one wasn't too sure about what to do until I walked around to other spots then he figured it out but one of the females had no reaction to it at all I mean hardly even knew it was in her spot. I dropped it dragged it around made it jump in the air even placed it beside her.NOTHING AT ALL. She smelled it and would look away. But if I was with another dog she was steady barking and raising hell at them so I drop it between her spot and another to realize she could care less about the hide was just after the opposite dog from her. So my question is if she has no desire to work a hide or other bait items what are some things I can look into doing with her during a keep? Clearly flirt poles spring poles and other baits tools maybe out but what about weight pulls? I know walking or running can be used that's a given but should I look into a swim tank? Just looking ahead so I can plan out this keep well head of time. Thanks for all suggestions you may have I'm always willing and looking for ways to improve my keeps and figured this may help others
If you have a new group then give them time. Lots of times they will mimic the dog beside them. If he is doing a lot of times the next one will as well. Lots of dogs learn habits from the dogs they see and lots of times it is bad habits. This could be one of those times to imprint good habits. Best of luck. EWO
bolero
03-25-2013, 05:02 PM
some dogs wont man and some got straight add i got one who loves the hide for about five minutes and once he gets it a few times and i take it away he will lose interest
widerange
03-31-2013, 05:07 AM
some dogs wont man and some got straight add i got one who loves the hide for about five minutes and once he gets it a few times and i take it away he will lose interest
So what do you do once that dog loses interest in the hide? That was my reason for adding this topic to see what others do when working a hide doesnt work for a dog
Some dogs will not do it no matter. Some absolutely live for it. Most fall somewhere in between. I think working the dog next to them is about the best answer. Flipping it over to the one that is not interested and if he takes interest only let him have it for a few seconds and then to the next dog. Build from there. If he gets all he wants right off the bat he may lose interest again. Give him a little if he wants it, back to the dog that will work it and then a little more. If it is in him this should build it up. Little by little. Sometimes it is like putting a square peg in a round hole. Just does not work. EWO
OGDOGG
03-31-2013, 05:45 AM
It's in the dog. Once that dog lose focus, he's done. But it doesn't mean he will be like that for life. Later down the road he might become a totally focused dog. It just depend how committed he is towards working. I have a bitch who wouldn't work for shit when she was young. But after 4 keeps, and 5 years later, she will not quit when she work because she know its her ticket to whopping some bitches ass.
I have her son also who would not touch a hide and he's 18 months old but will run the mill nonstop. I have a feeling once he experience what he's getting ready for, he'll eventually get turned on and start working.
Sometimes you got to act a little crazy yourself to make dog go crazy about something :lol:
Without a doubt. Encouragement and praise is vital to just about anything with a dog. EWO
Sometimes you got to act a little crazy yourself to make dog go crazy about something :lol:
widerange
04-04-2013, 07:47 AM
I still haven't been able to get her on a hide moved it around her then to other dogs and back with nothing at all. So I put a weight pulling harness on her with a chain to pull and she did great with it so it looks like weight pulling, long bike rides and some mill work in my future
Nothing wrong with that. The hide is no different than a mill, a spring pole, a jenny or whatever. Each of them are nothing more than tools. The easy dogs will allow you to use them all. Sometimes the owners have to put in a lot more work to find the right tool for that particular dog to get the job done. Work her that way and then go back to the hide here and there and she may get the idea. If not, move on...Best of luck....EWO
widerange
04-05-2013, 12:45 PM
Thanks for the info I'll try to keep y'all updated on her progress
bolero
04-24-2013, 12:31 PM
get yourself a four wheeler and find some trails nothing wiill beat that not a cat mill a treadmill or a flirt runninn hills up and down on uneven ground will hit every muscle there is personally a treadmill is only needed for bad weather or when you are working multiple dogs dont get me wrong mills are great but are absolutely not necessary
i put out a live trap and get a real animal at the end of the flirt pole. have not seen one turn away from that ever!
grindhard
07-25-2013, 03:10 PM
ive learn that it does not hurt to give your dog a rest from time to time and focus more on flirting. in my opinion i feel that the mouth tends to get sore and it needs time heal. and the flirt keeps him on that hide also you can play tug of war. i have had a dog go sleep on it and a couple days later wouldn't touch it
Agreed. That goes with lots of things. Too much of most things is a bad thing. Too much treadmill, flirtpole. worm medicine, antibiotics, (we can all fill in the blank). Too much of anything can lead to problems. EWO
evolutionkennels
07-25-2013, 03:56 PM
ive learn that it does not hurt to give your dog a rest from time to time and focus more on flirting. in my opinion i feel that the mouth tends to get sore and it needs time heal. and the flirt keeps him on that hide also you can play tug of war. i have had a dog go sleep on it and a couple days later wouldn't touch it
I may ruffle a few feathers with this post. But almost all dogs are in better shape off the chain than in the show. Quite simply, most over train thier animals and should bring the mill, jenny, or springpole to the show, cause that's where they left the dog. Most people are too stupid to recognize when the dogs muscle has no ATP, when it needs rest. If I had to start over again, I'd rest every other day. New performance tests show sled dogs have more endurance and are stronger when rested every other day. Furthermore, specific to spring pole... Teeth become loose from gum line, so you should never work more than 20 min, and never where the back legs aren't on the ground. Furthermore, no mouth work 17 days before show date, or you'll be picking up your teeth from the square.
I did not care to work one on the hide due to loosening up the teeth. Just run them back and forth on that long loose playing cable run with a pulling harness and wanted all feet on the ground. I had the ground nice and soft to not hurt the pads.
It was to wind them and help build tensile strength, but done only in spurts with walking. I too believe in the resting every other day if you are going to work the hell out of them in each workout. I had read where Mayfield worked his dogs up to 6 or 8 hours on the Jenny Mill.
So I figured I could get at least 4 hours out of my dog. I had this dog that would work his heart out for you. By Golly I got him up to a four hour run on my 80 foot long Jenny. Last week and into the rest days. Poor dog had went stale and dry. Could not protect himself after 20 minutes into the dog pull. He would have been much better off the chain than what I did to him.
Overtime I learned if you have a good strong dog with good natural air. You do not have to work them to death's door to get one in shape. If you are not real sure of what to do. Best stick with a spread out twice a day or three times a day fast hand walking and some reasonable round table work. Was the safest approach for me.
If one has the time a good walking dog that can get in up to 10 to 15 miles of walking a day ( Not all at one time). Will be in pretty good shape. So will you. LOL That is what makes working a dog not so easy. It takes time and not being in a hurry. One can correct the little problems as they show up. Sure as Murphy's Law is all ways in effect. Some something will pop up, hope it is not lameness or a torn foot pad.
evolutionkennels
07-25-2013, 05:12 PM
I did not care to work one on the hide due to loosening up the teeth. Just run them back and forth on that long loose playing cable run with a pulling harness and wanted all feet on the ground. I had the ground nice and soft to not hurt the pads.
It was to wind them and help build tensile strength, but done only in spurts with walking. I too believe in the resting every other day if you are going to work the hell out of them in each workout. I had read where Mayfield worked his dogs up to 6 or 8 hours on the Jenny Mill.
So I figured I could get at least 4 hours out of my dog. I had this dog that would work his heart out for you. By Golly I got him up to a four hour run on my 80 foot long Jenny. Last week and into the rest days. Poor dog had went stale and dry. Could not protect himself after 20 minutes into the dog pull. He would have been much better off the chain than what I did to him.
Overtime I learned if you have a good strong dog with good natural air. You do not have to work them to death's door to get one in shape. If you are not real sure of what to do. Best stick with a spread out twice a day or three times a day fast hand walking and some reasonable round table work. Was the safest approach for me.
If one has the time a good walking dog that can get in up to 10 to 15 miles of walking a day ( Not all at one time). Will be in pretty good shape. So will you. LOL That is what makes working a dog not so easy. It takes time and not being in a hurry. One can correct the little problems as they show up. Sure as Murphy's Law is all ways in effect. Some something will pop up, hope it is not lameness or a torn foot pad.
I agree with almost everything, except for the handwalking part. Nowadays, you need more endurance and to get the heart rate up to a faster rate. The jenny Isbthere best workout period, (my opinion) but not just a jenny, one with a counterweight and a Hyde. Only let em work the Hyde for 20 minutes, where they stop, shake, pull, push, then start running again. In my opinion, it's the closest thing to the real thing, and results speak louder than words. Gr. Ch. Machobuck traveled 24 hours twice, ch. Xena, gr. Ch. Hannah, ch. Dingo, all traveling and winning. Jenny rocked.. Well rested, never more than two hours in a day, and that was at peak
Ditto the jenny is the best way long as the weather is good. That can be said for walking as well. Some of the Dog men had extra big barns etc. to put a Jenny inside out of the weather. When the weather was good did use my Jenny every chance I got. But not no four hours. LOL
So it was a mixture of what the dog worked the over all best. I had a well built tread mill, 16 foot round table inside a large building along with the Jenny and Cable run outside. I never worked many dogs due to the type job I had. A few did O.K. on the others best to have stayed home.
I let V. Jackson handle 99.9% of it because he was much better at it and had the time. Not counting one hell of a set up to Road work a dog with plenty of young marines to help him. Lot of what I have mentioned on here is what I learned by watching what V.J. did. P. Powell of Termite Fame was helped along by V. Jackson. Both were in the Marines and stationed on the same Base. V.J. was a Supply Staff Sargent and Powell was a DI Staff Sargent.
I did see that video were this fellow had a long counter balanced Jenny. Had it set up were the dog was running and holding a hide type thing in his mouth off and on. Dog was working and breathing through sides of mouth and nose. Looked to be in great shape.
I said to myself boy I would hate to go into that dog with that type conditioning. A dog like that can go at you none stop for a good while if it does not get hurt early.
evolutionkennels
07-25-2013, 07:13 PM
I did see that video were this fellow had a long counter balanced Jenny. Had it set up were the dog was running and holding a hide type thing in his mouth off and on. Dog was working and breathing through sides of mouth and nose. Looked to be in great shape.
I said to myself boy I would hate to go into that dog with that type conditioning. A dog like that can go at you none stop for a good while if it does not get hurt early.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXJJWkGoH8o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
evolutionkennels
07-25-2013, 07:23 PM
And for the record. 5 parties really regretted meeting him. :lol:
evolutionkennels
07-25-2013, 09:35 PM
CYJ, was that the video you were talking about?
I don't think you are ruffling any feathers. If you said, "Hey EWO, what do you think about this post? I would say you are preaching to the choir. I too believe a lot of the dogs have been left on the mill/jenny/spring pole. I have often posted the ability to see the need for rest is by far the most important part of conditioning. It is an art in itself. I am hardly ever concerned with how much a dog can do as much as I am concerned with the time it takes for him to recover and do it again. I am slightly more conservative with the teeth than 17 days but the principle is the same. If I use mouth work it is early on and stops three weeks or so out. I too agree the back legs have to be on the ground. I also use it at lots of angles, from overhead, low from a tree, higher up, etc..etc.. but always with the feet on the ground. As for me, preach on Brother EVO...EWO
I may ruffle a few feathers with this post. But almost all dogs are in better shape off the chain than in the show. Quite simply, most over train thier animals and should bring the mill, jenny, or springpole to the show, cause that's where they left the dog. Most people are too stupid to recognize when the dogs muscle has no ATP, when it needs rest. If I had to start over again, I'd rest every other day. New performance tests show sled dogs have more endurance and are stronger when rested every other day. Furthermore, specific to spring pole... Teeth become loose from gum line, so you should never work more than 20 min, and never where the back legs aren't on the ground. Furthermore, no mouth work 17 days before show date, or you'll be picking up your teeth from the square.
Nice set up. Running with the hide in the mouth would really train a dog to breathe while in hold. I am a big fan of anything that mimics the work used on show night. The stopping and fighting the hide and then starting again is huge. That video could explain a lot. EWO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXJJWkGoH8o&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Personally i don't do any hide work. No place for a jenny in the city, and i was told springpole work demands to much of a dog in keep. I do keep some extra weight on the neck and give the dog a kong for 30 minutes every day. I do feel you guys that this mimics the real work, so you got me thinking of doing some light springpole work in the first 4 weeks of the keep.
Talking about resting, hope i don't go to much offtopic with this question but it had me thinking. If you got a dog with a high prey drive, pulling the leash hard, and you live in the city. Would it be better to keep the dog in the cold outside in the kennel during the keep and only walk it once a day on weighing time, so it can have maximum rest. Or would you choose to keep it at a calm/warm place inside, yet you have to walk the dog 3 times a day, also on its resting day.. but the dog will never be easy on the leash. Hoping for some good advice.
evolutionkennels
07-26-2013, 05:16 AM
Well, you put that type of conditioning on a prolific killing machine, you get times like 18, 22, 28,31,
grindhard
07-26-2013, 05:44 AM
never picked any teeth off the floor,however that 17 days out is very helpful to me
evolutionkennels
07-26-2013, 06:09 AM
Personally i don't do any hide work. No place for a jenny in the city, and i was told springpole work demands to much of a dog in keep. I do keep some extra weight on the neck and give the dog a kong for 30 minutes every day. I do feel you guys that this mimics the real work, so you got me thinking of doing some light springpole work in the first 4 weeks of the keep.
Talking about resting, hope i don't go to much offtopic with this question but it had me thinking. If you got a dog with a high prey drive, pulling the leash hard, and you live in the city. Would it be better to keep the dog in the cold outside in the kennel during the keep and only walk it once a day on weighing time, so it can have maximum rest. Or would you choose to keep it at a calm/warm place inside, yet you have to walk the dog 3 times a day, also on its resting day.. but the dog will never be easy on the leash. Hoping for some good advice.
Everything else being equal, inside a room temperature place conserving energy puts more nutrients into building muscle and endurance, rather than just trying to keep warm.
I think it is better to be inside. If he is worked, supplemented and then put inside in the warm his body will use the nutrients/supplementation as they were intended. If he is kept outside there will be a certain amount of shivering (temperature dependent). Thus there will be a certain amount of energies dedicated to keeping warm instead of recharging.
The dog will still be able to rest in that environment if there is a set to routine. If he comes out of the box, goes straight to his dump place, dumps and then gets put back up he can rest sufficiently in between. If his rest days are long walks where he is pulling to several different spots to try to dump/empty then that may interfere with rest. Either situation can work and both have worked for others. If you are locked in to your situation ( city/urban/country/farm) then the idea is to find what works for you and your dog. I would say make the routine that fits and stick to it. EWO
Personally i don't do any hide work. No place for a jenny in the city, and i was told springpole work demands to much of a dog in keep. I do keep some extra weight on the neck and give the dog a kong for 30 minutes every day. I do feel you guys that this mimics the real work, so you got me thinking of doing some light springpole work in the first 4 weeks of the keep.
Talking about resting, hope i don't go to much offtopic with this question but it had me thinking. If you got a dog with a high prey drive, pulling the leash hard, and you live in the city. Would it be better to keep the dog in the cold outside in the kennel during the keep and only walk it once a day on weighing time, so it can have maximum rest. Or would you choose to keep it at a calm/warm place inside, yet you have to walk the dog 3 times a day, also on its resting day.. but the dog will never be easy on the leash. Hoping for some good advice.
evolutionkennels
07-26-2013, 09:00 PM
Nice set up. Running with the hide in the mouth would really train a dog to breathe while in hold. I am a big fan of anything that mimics the work used on show night. The stopping and fighting the hide and then starting again is huge. That video could explain a lot. EWO
Not much of a preacher, (no pun on words) ,just like to share some thoughts.
Thanks for shining your light evo/ewo.
I am always interested in others thoughts. My two favorite facets of this game is the history (both dog and dogman) and conditioning. Always interested in another persons insight. EWO
This is a good video as well. There was another I saw that was on the on lines ped site. Was a dog man out in Texas had a very large swinging jenny. Was something stuck just out front of dog that he could mouth and still run the mill. This video and that one are good vids on the Jenny work.