View Full Version : Bass' Tramp Red Boy (Wendell Martin's)
I never met Mr. Mc'Cloud or saw his bitch dog Mc'Cloud's Susie-Q. Mr. Mc'Cloud was the breeder of the litter of dogs that the Bass' Tramp Red Boy was bred out of. Mr. Mc'Cloud lived in Florence S.C. Mr. Mc'Cloud advertised his Pit Bull pups for sale through the Florence Morning News Paper Sales Ads. Even today time to time you will see Pit Bull pups for sale in the Sales Ads along with other breeds of dogs.
Tramp Red Boy was first owned as a puppy till up around 14 to 16 months old by W. Martin who lived in Dillon S.C. Some of Tramp Red Boy's male siblings out of that litter were named Louis Miles' Bouncer/Ford's Blaze/Lindsey Mc'Dougal's Happy/and Mr. Howard Teal's Mike, some called this dog Big Mac. Lastly Theo Hendrix' Sandy dog. There was one bitch I knew of owned by Louis Miles. Miles put this bitch down at a young age as it was a cold bitch. If any other females I do not know.
Tramp Red Boy/Ford's Blaze Dog/and Teal's Mike were larger dogs with Big Mac being the largest. Bouncer, Happy, and Sandy were around 45 pound dogs with the rest around 58 to 65 pound dogs. Tramp Red Boy was matched at 52 pounds.
Bouncer was a tiger brindle/black nose dog. Ford's Blaze dog was a reddish tan with black nose. Mc'Dougal's Happy was a light reddish tan dog with red nose/yellow eyes. Hendrix' Sandy was a light reddish tan with red nose/yellow eyes. Mr. Howard Teal's Big Mac was a dark brown dog with a black nose and was undershot with a more Bulldog looking head. Tramp Red Boy was red with red nose and yellow eyes. Red Boy, Happy and Sandy looked more a like.
W. Martin had a yard of dogs bred off the Loposay's Bullet II dogs and some Loposay Carver's Tiger Jack breeding. Martin sold Red Boy to Randy Bass. Martin later on sold his Martin's Lady bitch to A. Howell, along with a young male dog off Loposay's Tiger Jack x Loposay's Beanie called Buckshot.
You will find the Martin's Lady bitch in the breeding of Ray Carter's Blackie dog that helped found F. Jacob's Assassin line of dogs. A breeding off Howell's Buckshot dog x Martin's Lady can be seen in the Snake man and Fat Bill dogs.
The Martin's Lady bitch was also bred to Tramp Red Boy when Wendell still owned Red Boy. My brother owned one of the bitches named Young's Liz and Rowell had a male named Ringo. Both dogs were black and white, had good mouths and showed to be game dogs. Wendell bred Tramp Red boy to some of his other bitches but do not know anything of those dogs or breeding. Lot of dog men back then did not register their dogs. Just kept their own personal records.
All of these dogs that Mr. Mc'Cloud bred were U.K.C. registered. The papers shown on Louis Miles' Bouncer dog read the same as the pedigree shown on this site and others on Bass' Tramp Red Boy. I did not look at any of the other dog men's pedigrees,since all the owners knew their dogs were bred off Mr. Teal's yard. The Big Mac or Mike dog was probably the stud fee pup that was given to Mr. Teal for breeding the Mc'Cloud's Susie-Q bitch. This Susie-Q bitch was also shown bred off Mr. Teal's yard.
Katie Marlowe later became a dog partner with Bass,when he died she became the sole owner of Red Boy and the remaining dogs they had bred up. There were some breeding's off Red Boy and Bass's Cleo that Bass made. Bass sold some of those young pups and dogs to other dog men in his area. One notable dog man who got some of the older Bass Red Boy x Bass' Cleo stock was Mr. Carl Mims.
I can not remember his name. But there was one dog man that lived close to Bass in Dillon S.C. This dog man had some direct dogs off Red Boy and Cleo. Some were black colored like Cleo with black noses, body builds like the Marlowe's Britches dog. Were also a few red nose red dogs. Not sure where all this dog man's dogs went too after he got out of the game.
Katie Marlowe is one of the main founders of the Tramp Red Boy line of dogs. She line bred and inbred off Red Boy till late into Red Boy's life. Red Boy lived to a ripe ole age for a Bulldog. All of the rumor's of Red Boy's breeding were the same ones I heard forty years ago. Only two people know for sure and that was Mr.Teal and Mr. Mc'Cloud. No one disputed the Dam of Red Boy or the Mc'Cloud's Susie Q's breeding. The question and mystery was always who was the actual Sire of the Bass' Tramp Red Boy dog.
It may have been Rowell that was one of the last persons that visited Mr. Teal at the hospital or at his home not long before he passed. I was told Mr. Teal was again asked if he knew the breeding of the stud dog. That was the sire of the Bass' Tramp Red Boy and it's siblings litter. Mr. Teal's reply was the stud dog was bred down from the Ross' Red Devil bloodline.
It is best to just accept the fact that the Tramp Red Boy line began with Katie Marlowe and her breeding around Bass' Tramp Red Boy. I think she did a great job myself. Was right up there with the rest of the famous Male Dog men breeders of her time. Other Red Boy breeders like Mr. Mims/Hunt/Robinson/Gainey/Truett/Cottingham/Holland/ Bailey etc. did well with their own Red Boy strains and their crosses.
Katie's son Bo told me a few weeks back they had sold off their yard years back. That the remaining Red Boy dogs on their yard went to a dog man in Tenn., who wishes to remain private. There is one dog man that called me just this past week. He still has some tight bred Red Boy dogs off Marlowe's Chance/Mr. Bulldog/and Britches. He has over the years used his Red Boy/ Red Boy-Jocko crosses with some Garner's China Man/Mr. Wesley Truett's Prince dogs with good results. He wishes to remain unknown and was wanting some of V. Jackson's blood line to cross back into for some different pulling traits.
After reading some of those Red Boy stories over on the other site. I hope this clears up some of the mystery and mystique on Tramp Red Boy for some of the new comers. Marlowe's Tramp Red Boy/V. Jackson's Hank/William Kelley's Willie were the popular stud dogs in the Pee Dee area of the South East, in my time era. Cheers
Officially Retired
04-17-2013, 06:17 PM
Great stuff, CYJ, thanks for taking the time to share your experiences, I know a lot of people will be interested in reading this--and I am sure many will have further questions :)
Thanks again,
Jack
scary
04-18-2013, 05:07 AM
great read cvj. me and a family member of mine were talking dogs one day. He is still very green and got on the subject some dogs that Marlowe produced. Well moral to the story you should have seen the look on his face when i told him Marlowe was a lady :shocked: lol it was priceless.
Tarheel
04-18-2013, 07:23 AM
Great read Johnny....always love hearing your input....we go way back my friend, we still need to find Sonny!!
Tar Heel you made it over to a real dog man's site. Members, this younger fellow Tar Heel is the real deal. I knew him when he was in his early twenties. He was one of the young upcoming dog men that O. Stevenson liked and helped along the way. Has a blood line intact from 35 years back.
Get all your ped info. on this site. Jack has the best system I have ever seen. If you make a mistake will help you fix it. Make sure to watch all his video's on how his and his brother's ped system works. I am a little thick and computer baby boomer impaired, so had to watch them several times. LOL
You can get answers on this site with everyone being civil about it. Or get a P.M. of any error before being put in a un removable quote even after apologizing and correcting a comment. This site is a breathe of Fresh air.
Officially Retired
04-18-2013, 09:44 AM
Thanks and glad to provide a forum where some old school pros feel comfortable discussing what they've learned and seen, to share it with others.
Very nice to have you both here, for sure.
Cheers,
This is a update on this subject and a tad more. The opinion from the Fancier ( M. Norrod's brother), who posts under the member name of another member called Danger. On the on lines pedigree site. Stated in a well written article He wrote. That overtime He thought the Bass Tramp Red Boy dog might be of a Red Devil/Hemphill cross. Bred similar to George Christie's stock. Who lived in Coos Bay Oregon. Another breeder Vera Storm and husband carried some of the Christie stock in their dogs.
That the Red Boy pup was sent to Tennessee and (assumed) owned by the dog man Earl Adams. Might have my Adams dog men wrong, only one I had read or heard about back then. I knew a younger dog man named Joe Adams that may have helped Mr. Teal work and did handled Mr. Teal's dogs in some show events. Mr. Earl Adams was good friends with Mr. Teal. That Mr. Teal was given the Red Boy pup from Mr. Adams. If I have my wires crossed on that statement I apologize and stand corrected. If I understood the article correctly here is the problem with said opinion of the Fancier, which he is entitled to assume or believe for himself.
I brought up this subject with Mr. Truett about two days ago, of what the Fancier believed about Red Boy's breeding and if he knew or had ever met the Fancier in person. He told me yes he had. Was at a dog show in Michigan some years back.
There were some dog fanciers up Michigan way that had some of Mr. Truett's Prince/Red Boy dogs. Mr. Truett happen to some years back attend a dog show in Cool Water Michigan. One person he remembered being present besides the Fancier was a lady by the name of Ruby Hall who had or owned the Red Ape dog from Ozzie Steven's dog yard. He said the Fancier was telling his opinion on how the Bass Tramp Red Boy dog was bred to this group of dog persons. Mr. Truett kept quite and let Fancier state his thoughts and opinions on this never ending subject. LOL
Then Mr. Truett spoke up and told the Fancier the truth of the matter just like I told it on here. Mr. Truett and K. Marlowe were good friends and Mr. Truett had a good many Red Boy dogs on his yard over the years. Mr. Truett and R. E. Bass were not the best of friends over time.
Bass suckered punch Mr. Truett many years back at a dog show down Charleston way over a argument I forgot to ask him about. Just as Mr. Truett was fixing to put a real arse whipping on Bass it was broken up. Mr. Truett was a Roofer by profession and was no one to be trifled with even in his older years. Probably for the best as Bass carried a blade and a gun.
Back on subject, when the Fancier heard what Mr. Truett had to say on the matter. He got up and walked off. Reckon he prefers it his way. He is always quoting about were you there when this or that was going on. In many of the Fancier's arguments that may be a valid question. I can say Mr. Truett and Myself was there and saw Red Boy on numerous occasions from the time he was on Mr. Martin's yard, Bass' yard and lastly Miss Marlowe's yard. Where Tramp Red Boy died at a ripe ole age for a dog.
I do agree with Norrod on his feelings of Bass' Tramp Red Boy's sire probably being bred down from the Ross' Red Devil bloodlines. I always thought the Red Boy dog looked and was made up like Corvino's Shorty dog (bowed out at the elbows and back legs. Heads very similar looking. You could have put Ross' Red Devil dog in the middle of Katie Marlowe's dog yard back then. The Red Devil dog would look like another Red Boy dog on the yard. When I first saw Bass' Cleo bitch that he kept in his backyard. I looked Cleo over and asked Bass' if Cleo was a Bert Sorrell bred bitch dog. Cleo was built like some of those rangy/wiry built dogs like that Sorrell's Sailor dog.
Old saying goes that where there may be smoke, could be a fire. Have heard that some really good dogs were bred up when Red Boy blood was crossed with some of the Bert Sorrell stock. The Wendell Martin's Lady bitch which carried Cotton's Bullet blood crossed well with Red Boy as well. Cheers
Officially Retired
07-25-2014, 07:41 AM
Nice addendum, CYJ 8)
evolutionkennels
07-26-2014, 10:16 AM
I never met Mr. McCloud who was the breeder of the litter of dogs that the Tramp Red Boy was bred out of. Mr. McCloud lived in Florence S.C., bred and sold Pit Bull pups through the Florence Morning News Paper Sales Ads. Even today time to time you will see Pit Bull pups for sale in the Sales Ads along with other breeds of dogs.
Tramp Red Boy was first owned as a puppy till up around say 14 months old by W. Martin who lived in Dillion S.C. Some of Tramp Red Boy's male siblings out of that litter were L. Miles Bouncer/Ford's Red Dog/L. McDougal's Happy/and Howard Teal's Mike, some called him Big Mac. Lastly Theo Hendrix' Sandy dog.
Tramp Red Boy/Ford's Red Dog/and Teal's Mike were larger dogs with Big Mac being the largest. Bouncer, Happy, and Sandy were around 45 pound dogs with the rest around 58 to 65 pound dogs. Tramp Red Boy was matched at 52 pounds.
Bouncer was a tiger brindle/black nose dog. Ford's dog was a reddish tan with black nose. McDougal's Happy was a light reddish tan dog with red nose/yellow eyes. Hendrix's Sandy was a light reddish tan with red nose/yellow eyes. Teal's Big Mac was a dark brown dog with a black nose and was undershot with a more Bulldog looking head. Tramp Red Boy was red with Red Nose and yellow eyes. Red Boy, Happy and Sandy looked more a like.
W. Martin had a yard of dogs mostly bred off the Lopassay's Bullet II dogs and some Lopassay Carver's Tiger Jack breeding. Martin sold Red Boy to Bass. Later on sold his Martin's Lady bitch to A. Howell, along with a young male dog off Lopassay's Tiger Jack x Lopassay's Beanie called Buckshot.
You will find the Martin's Lady bitch in the breeding of R. Carter's Blackie dog that help found F.J.'s Assassin line of dogs. A breeding off Howell's Buckshot dog x Martin's Lady can be seen in the Snake man and Fat Bill dogs.
The Martin's Lady bitch was also bred to Tramp Red boy when Wendell still owned him. My brother owned one of the bitches named Liz and Rowell had a male named Ringo. Both dogs were black and white, had good mouths and showed to be game dogs. Wendell may have bred Tramp Red boy to some of his other bitches but do not know for sure.
All of these dogs that Mr. McCloud bred were UKC registered. The papers shown on Louis's Bouncer dog read the same as the pedigree shown on this site and others on Tramp Red Boy. I did not look at any of the other dog's pedigrees,since all the owners knew their dogs and knew they were off Mr. Teal's yard. The Big Mac or Mike dog was probably the stud fee pup that was given to Mr. Teal for breeding the McCloud's Susie-Q bitch. This bitch was also shown bred off Mr. Teal's yard.
Katie Marlowe later became a dog partner with Bass and when he died she became the sole owner of Red Boy and the remaining dogs. There was some breedings off Red Boy and Bass's Cleo that Bass sold to some other dog men along with Katie getting some.
I can not remember his name. But there was one dog man that lived close to Bass in Dillion S.C. This dog man had some direct dogs off Red Boy and Cleo. Most were Black etc. and looked like the Britches dog along with a few Red Nose red dogs. Not sure where all his dogs went to after he got out of the game.
Katie Marlowe is the main founder of the Tramp Red Boy line. She line bred and inbred off Red Boy till late in Red Boy's life. Red Boy lived to a ripe ole age for a Bulldog. All of the rumor's of Red Boy's breeding were the same ones I heard 40 years ago. Only two people know for sure and that was Mr.Teal and Mr. McCloud.
It is best to just accept the fact that the Tramp Red Boy line began with Katie Marlowe and her breeding around Tramp Red Boy. I think she did one hell of a great job myself. Was right up there with the rest of the famous Male Dog men breeders of her time.
Her son Bo told me a few weeks back that when they sold off their yard. That all their yard went to a dog man in Tenn., who wishes to remain private. There is one dog man that called me just this past week. He still has some tight bred Red Boy dogs off Marlowe's Chance/Mr. Bulldog/and Britches. He has over the years used his Red Boy-Jocko crossed with some Chinaman/W. T.'s Prince dogs with good results. He wishes to remain unknown and was wanting some of V. Jackson's blood line to cross back into for some different pulling traits.
After reading some of those Red Boy stories over on the other site. I hope this clears up some of the mystery and mystique on Tramp Red Boy for some of the new comers. Marlowe's Tramp Red Boy/Jackson's Hank/Kelley's Willie were the popular stud dogs in the Pee Dee area of the South East, in my time era.
Thank you
dtakennels
07-27-2014, 04:56 AM
Thinks for the history lesson CYJ....I got a little Red Boy in this ole girl....
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=41046
DTA.....
brokeback
07-27-2014, 08:47 AM
Good read as always CYJ, thank you.
Ditto DTA kennels. Mr. Mims was one of the few that could deal with Bass. May have been because Mr. Mims was a Boxer in his younger days so had something in common. Might have helped and give good coaching advice to Bass' Son. First time I ever saw Bass was when myself and brother went to a Boxing club over in Florence S.C. Bass' son was sparing that day, and also a young upcoming heavy weight, Weldon Benton. Weldon Benton lost the main Golden Gloves event to Ken Norton. Ken Norton went on to be a tough Pro Heavy weight, giving Ali one or two of his hardest bouts.
Mr. Mims got dogs direct from Bass and Miss Marlowe and knew what was the best breeding's of the Red Boy stock. Ever talk to him, fix you a long sipping drink. He loves to talk dogs. He was also good friends with Mr. M. Gainey who had some good straight bred Red Boy dogs and Red Boy Jocko crosses. He and Mr. Mims may have did some dog dealings. Only Mr. Mims' would know for sure.
Mr. Mims is a very likeable sorts and can get along with most anyone if you are straight talking with him. One of the best little bitches I ever owned came from Mr. Mims. Shown on most pedigrees as Mims' Sally, later Young's Sally. Mr. Mims gave Sally to G. Cox, Cox always spoke highly of Mr. Mims. Mr. Mims by profession according to G.Cox, was a very specialized wood grader. Could grade the best cuts of various type timber and value of the cuts. Something very few can do today.
When G. Cox quit the dog game he gave Sally to me. Sally was up in age and never could get any pups off My Chuck dog and V. Jackson's Tunney. Did not catch both times. Did get some pups off her when bred to my Young's Winchester dog and J. Spruill's Gr CH Jack dog. My biggest mistake was not breeding her to my Young's Jake dog. 20/20 hindsight can be hell sometimes. LOL
When you are dealing with Mr. Mims you are dealing with one of the top dog men of my time era. He has the dogs he says he has. Pedigrees are right on. Cheers
Hello DTA, went back today and reread that Red Boy article I had wrote. Added a little more of my thoughts to those post of mine,corrected some spellings etc. Took another look at your pedigree on your Red Velvet bitch dog id=41046. Is that bitch dog still alive? Do you have any siblings off this heavy line/inbred bred Red Boy bitch dog? Would be nice to see a attached picture to the pedigree of this bitch.
If Mr. Mims let you breed her back to his last Red Boy stock etc. You have some of the last living stock of straight bred Red Boy dogs. A 14 generation search on this bitch shows Red Velvet at 70% Red Boy. Is a shame that Mr. Teal stuck those Teal's Jeff Colby etc pedigree on Red Boy and his siblings. I never saw a pure Red Boy dog that looked anything like a pure Colby dog. I feel, like Norrod believes that there is a much stronger Corvino influence in the Red Boy dogs than any sort of Colby influence. Cheers
I will pass this post along to DTA. I'm not sure if he has an active account here or if he even checks it any more.
We tried to breed her to my Ozzie dog once, http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=42272
She did not take. He was a heck of a little dog. I always felt we missed an opportunity there.
Agree on Mr. Mims and the sipping glass. Funny thing is, dogs get only a small percentage of the conversation, as he is a knowledgeable man in a lot of areas. Once we talked 45 minutes on the rubber boots in which boots are made. Got into Goodyear and how manufacturer's moved from their quality rubber to Asian sources for cost reduction. Boots just not the same. 45 minutes.
Short story long my cousin went to prison and in his work release he worked in a lumber yard. He had brains just let drugs get in the way. He eventually became a lumber grader. He worked in the SC area for a few years before on to Tenn. He says Mr. Mims is a legend in the wood industry down that way.
And a full grown man on top of that. He had some concrete bowls we bought once. A full 80lb. makes one bowl. He grabbed one in each hand like he picked up his lunch pail. I was a big boy and he was a bit older so I had to save face. I grabbed two as well. We walked about 30-40 yards. The third guy was a 'one at a timer'. Mr. Mims looked at me after about 8 trips and said, "You would have been good on a pulp wood truck". I think it was a compliment. Being 'a full grown man' may have helped with Mr. Bass as well, LOL.
Good post CYJ. I will pass that along. DTA and his Pops are planning to go to VJ's later in the summer. They want to stay a number of days because of the long drive. He told me they were coordinating three work schedules to make it happen. They ended up breeding that bitch to a winning heavy Snooty dog (Spike and some Middleton's Black Betty stuff) from the mountains of NC. I don't know much about him but they say he is a really smart, hard mouth face fighter. I will get a ped off the other site if I can find it.
Again, keep dropping that 'older' knowledge. Always a great read.
EWO
brokeback
06-24-2016, 06:05 AM
I agree, great posts, CYJ and EWO.
EWO,
How were you feeling on that 8th trip? lol
Great story, thanks for sharing!
S_B
Ditto EWO, here are the four rumors I always heard about the Sire of the Bass' Tramp Red Boy dog. Hope I am not duplicating myself in another post. Doing pedigree searches and correcting/adding info about these dogs. Have helped jog my memory a good bit.
I. Note the name Bass named Red Boy. Bass' Tramp Red Boy. This rumor is of a pit dog or maybe a Am Staff bred dog. Mr. Teal found roaming the downtown streets of his hometown. Mr. Teal named this; I believe was a brindle male dog, Tramp. This Tramp dog had no registered papers, so breeding was unknown. Mr. Teal checked the oil on this dog and found it to be game. I do not know how many times this Teal's Tramp was shown. Maybe just one time. From later information this Teal's Tramp was one of the first or first dogs matched into Baker Davis's Boomerang dog. The Teal's Tramp dog lost the show.
Some articles etc. have tried to say Teal's Tramp and Teal's Jeff or the same dog, not so. The Teal's Tramp dog had no known pedigree. The Teal's Jeff did. Some years later when Davis's Boomerang was around or close to eight years old. An age way past showing a dog. Mr. Davis matched his Boomerang dog for the last time into Mr. Teal. The dog used by Mr. Teal was bred out of his Teal's Mike (Big Mac, Tramp Red Boy's sibling brother) dog and that Mr. Medlin's Rose bitch. This dog was a brindle dog and well built. I saw this show. Mr. Davis's Boomerang won that show also.
2. The next rumor told was that Bass' Tramp Red Boy was sired by a dog named Wino. The only dog I knew of back then called Wino was Carver's Wino dog that had won three shows and lost a hard show to Mr. Teal's (Heinzl's Adolph). This Wino dog could have been bought by a local or even by Mr. Teal. I have this Carver's Wino dog entered into our system. Will add Carver's Wino offspring and the Heinzl's Adolph pedigree later today. There is a connection to the Adam's dogs in this Carver's Wino dog's pedigree. The Fancier in his Red Boy article talks about a Earl Adams connection. Now I am certainly not sure about this and could be just running up and down a rabbit trail. LOL
3. This rumor I have heard the most. Was that a man drove into Mr. Teal's Bowman Restaurant for some breakfast. This person had a big nice looking red/red nose dog tied in the back of his truck. The man saw all the dogs chained back up on the hill behind the Restaurant. He inquired about the dogs on the Hill to the waitress in the restaurant. Telling he had the same breed of dog tied up on the back of his truck. Mr. Teal was there that day and checked out this man's dog. One or two things happen that day. Was either Mr. Teal bought that dog from its owner. Or the Suzie-Q bitch was on Mr. Teal's yard, in heat ready to breed. So, Mr. Teal bred Susie-Q to that dog that day. This stud dog maybe being of Ross Red Devil breeding. In that time era the Red Devil/Maximilian bred dogs around N.C. was popular. Rowell showed one into me and later F. Jacobs showed one. This dog also could have been one of those Stidham (Heavy Hemphill breeding) - Cable-Long bred dogs by Mr. Kreebs or Creebs according to Mr. Mim's thoughts on the matter.
4. I talked with Garner recently. He said when he had talked with Mr. Teal over the phone, not long after Mr. Teal had that heart attack and stroke. I remember that day very well. I was doing the driving for Mr. Teal and Egan. We went down to a dog show event in Georgia. Mr. Teal refused to go to a emergency room and I had to drive him all the way back to his home. His doctor was furious with Mr. Teal for not seeking help much earlier.
Garner asked Mr. Teal who was the sire of Bass' Red Boy. The reply was off the Teal's Tip dog. Many years before that event, Mr. Egan Skinner told me, he felt that the sire to Bass' Red Boy and his litter siblings. Was the Teal's Tip dog. Garner jogged my memory in that discussion, and I recalled Mr. Skinner saying the same. Out of all these rumors this is the only two conversations many years apart that even agree.
That is the rumors to the best of my memory I had heard. After all these years. I saw a so-called True pedigree posted on Bass' Cleo showing this bitch dog sired by a Bert Sorrell dog. Thought that was sort of Ironic and refreshed my memory of that day. Standing in Bass' dog yard looking at Bass' Cleo bitch. Asking Bass if Cleo was a Bert Sorrell bred dog. LOL
No need to take all this too serious. V. Jackson and self-had to read a scathing article in the SDJ written by Don Mayfield. Stating our V. Jackson's Hank pedigree was a fake. So, what are we to do? Throw the baby out with the bath water. LOL The only honest Breeders I knew in my time era was Joe Beal/Howard Heinzl/Orbie Coplin/Egan Skinner/Plemmons/Carl Mims/ and there were some others.
Unless you are standing there yourself seeing your bitch bred to a specific stud dog. Never know what you may get. LOL Would be nice to get an interview from Mr. Mims on all this. Later in years Katie had started her own dog registry. I had visited her on a weekend and was chatting with her in her office. She ran a rental trailer park as well.
Katie was in a good mood that day. She first started telling me that Maurice Carver had called her inquiring about her Red Boy bloodlines etc. She also mentions that she knew how Red Boy was bred and Cleo. Was someday soon going to put out the corrected pedigrees. Was never able to get any more info at that time. A rental customer had drove up to ask about rent on one of her trailers. After that we went outside and looked at her dog yard and talked about more dogs. Variety is the spice of life. I liked the Carver-Boudreaux/Coplin-Mayfield dogs. Katie was doing her thing with the Red Boy dogs. I did not ask any more about the mentioned above topics. Figured if she wished to tell me more would have done so. Just good bulldog etiquette to never ask to many personnel questions about one's dogs/conditioning etc. Cheers
As I was studying the Heinzl's Adolf dog pedigree. I read another article written by Heinzl. Where a Palmer's Adolph beat a Wino dog up Chicago way. This Teal/ Heinzl Adolph dog on the on lines pedigree site shows it born in 1950. So if same Adolph and Wino dog. That rules those two dogs out.
Unless one knows the actual breeding on a dog and seen the said mating. Hard to sort out any of those rumor stories. Another dog that remains a mystery off Mr. Teal's yard was that Playboy dog that was mentioned in a Sonny Sykes article. Had heard the Play Boy dog talked about by Rowell etc.
One time when I was in Mr. Teal's back office before we went out to feed a dog he was working for a show. While I was sitting at his large work desk. I noticed a bunch of dog pedigrees laying on the desk. Were bloodlines of many breeders of that day. I saw some Colby pedigrees and some Heinzl pedigrees. It appears that Mr. Teal like Mr. Earl Tudor was a show and go type dog man. Was only concerned about the dog's pedigree at another date and time. Cheers
I'm too stubborn to give in, but the two bowls at a time was putting the beat down on me.
EWO
EWO,
How were you feeling on that 8th trip? lol
Great story, thanks for sharing!
S_B
The accuracy of pedigrees is one of the most interesting subjects in the dogs.
My favorite quote in the dogs was made by Mr. Lester Hughes.
In so many words...The only way to know how a dog is bred is to win three or four or produce three or four winners. There is always some sonofabitch standing in the corner that knows how he is bred.
EWO
Ditto EWO. One fellow that wrote his version on the Bass' Tramp Red Boy saga was E.L. Mullins. He was a great writer but with little knowledge on the actual facts,of what really went down at both of Red Boy's matches. His article is written with a lot of imagination added in. I believed I met him once up at Joe Beal's place back in the eighties.
In his article he wrote that Teal's Jeff and Teal's Tramp were the same dogs. Reason most knew Red Boy did not originate out of Teal's Jeff was Jeff was long dead by the time Red Boy was born. The statement that Cable's Fang was in top condition, was not true. The dog had gotten very sick not long after arriving at Mr. Teal's place. Instead of paying the forfeit they went through with the match anyway. So they where without any excuse. Mr. Lester Hughes said after Cable lost. Kelley wrote up the match as Mr. Hughes had worked their dog etc. When he had just come down to see the match.
The Dolly bitch was owned by Mr. Cable not Mr. Loposay. It was Cable and company that made that bitch dog challenge right behind Mr. Teal's restaurant. Mr. Teal and Bass were present and I was standing there also with V. Jackson. Bass told the N.C. dog men to bring a male or a female dog long as it weighed 52 pounds. He did say if the bitch shows up in full heat. The bitch bites Red Boy, Red Boy would do all Red Boy could do to kill the bitch. Red Boy was not a dumb dog,when in the square box, Red Boy was all business.
I do not think Bass won more than two fights with Red Boy or any off the chain matches. Bass was real careful with Red Boy and schooled Red Boy carefully. The one hard test was with that ninety or more pound Great Dane/Pit Bull cross in the dead heat of summer. Red Boy had to be treated for heart worms and was the main reason for not being matched anymore. I believe prior to that Dolly match Red Boy had undergone that heart worm treatment. Back then small amounts of Arsenic was used. Was hard on the dog's heart/liver and kidneys. Mr. Teal's Vet did the treatment.
In the match Red Boy got a good nose hold on that bitch and at times had to lay down in holds. Bass made the remark to Teal that the heartworm treatment had weaken Red Boy some what. Red Boy never looked like he was doing a lot of damage,but was a hard pressure biter. Red Boy stayed in good defensive holds on the head, nose and paced himself. That bitch dog Dolly was the top dog for a good portion of the match. You could see Red Boy slowly and steady massaging that bitches muzzle. Dolly finally broke the hold and ran with Red Boy still going for her. Handle was made real quick and Dolly refused to scratch standing on all four feet. Cheers
In most every pedigree there is a dog in question somewhere. Red Boy no different. Many of the old timers say Jeep died on the night he beat Homer. A jeep son is credited with ROM and all those winners. GRCH Virgil is a straight Panther dog in one version and out of the classifieds in another. And so on and so on.
It is part of the dogs.
EWO
Ditto EWO. I believe the first two years that Tudor had the Dibo dog. He registered litters sired by Dibo under another very similar bred dog named Tudor's Runt. That information is shown on Randy Fox' site. Just read that article recently and there is a UKC pedigree to show as well. Was why it was a moot point for a former member on this site. To argue with Ca. Jack, and go on and on about Tudor's Dibo's birth date and Boudreuax' Blind Billy birth date contradiction.
This person showed his true colors when he started deleting pedigrees and messing up a lot of other pedigrees. Took all the moderators awhile to fix all of it. LOL Cheers
I understand lineage and ancestry and foundation and all those 'big words' when it comes to pedigrees and breeding and production. The funniest part to me is that the biggest arguments and the most heated debates are about the dogs who lived the longest time ago. Dibo or Red Boy or even Jeep have little to no impact in todays dogs. Of course they made the dogs that made the dogs but it was so long ago. A faked pedigree or hung papers in the 1950's, 60's or maybe even the 70's have very little impact today. I'm no breeder but trying to recreate yesteryear is a no-win battle.
A guy near here is our 'resident pedigree expert'. He knows how everyone's dogs are bred, even more so that the owner and breeder of the dogs. His conspiracy theories are fun to listen to but never go anywhere with him. Odds are you will either be asked to leave or more than likely not invited back. We drove from NC to Clearwater, FL to deal dogs. Our camp had worked out a really good trade off and all was well. Then our expert went to telling the guy how dogs he bred were not really bred that way. From conversation to accusation. Trade went off but it took some time to separate me from him in the eyes of the fellows in Florida.
Pedigrees that are accurate and consistent are really important on site like this as a couple of discrepancies can really toss a wrench into the workings of the database. I get that and if they are in question I don't post. I have only posted mine, and a few just to get down to my dogs.
On that conversation with Mr. Hughes he said the only way to know is stick them yourself. Everything from that point forward is in your control and everything from that point backward is a guessing game. In so many words.
But a great series of posts. Especially on Red Boy. HC always said Red Boy was not bred as advertised. Many thoughts and theories as well. He had some straight off Red Boy,some double bred off of him. He and K. Marlowe were tight back then.
Throws to a funnier story, Older people can remember when long distance rates applied to everything outside your county. People even wrote letters by hand back then. HC was setting up to buy a dog with K. Marlowe and do a match down near where she lived. I remember he and his wife having a knock down drag out over the phone bill. He had a $300 phone bill tied up in a $300 puppy. Sign of the times.
EWO
Ditto EWO. I learned the hard way about the cost of long distance calling in the 70's. I called Mr. Orbie Coplin to verify the pedigrees etc. on my Young's Tina Marie bitch he had bred,also the V. Jackson's Pokey bitch. We bought both those little Coplin bred brood bitches from Don Mayfield. Don had gotten them from another known dog man. Who had bought these dogs when young directly from Mr. Orbie Coplin. Had quit the dog game.
Mr. Coplin liked to talk dogs like Mr. Carl Mims. I almost passed out when I saw my phone bill, my wife was not too happy about it either. LOL From then on we just corresponded through letters. I let Tar Heel Matt read all of those letters during a visit up at Sonny Shropshires.
If I had known what would become of all my books/pedigrees/dog letters. Would have given those letters to Matt along with some of those books. That extra nice red hard bound 70's era book of Pete Sparks collection. V.J. loaned to a young texas dog man. Was never returned,was told the book got stolen. V.J. has the rest of those soft bound Pete Sparks books and much more. He has no dog man to pass it all down to. His sons have no interest in the dogs. Probably all will be lost when he passes. If so will be a great loss. Cheers
brokeback
07-14-2016, 07:08 PM
Ditto EWO. I learned the hard way about the cost of long distance calling in the 70's. I called Mr. Orbie Coplin to verify the pedigrees etc. on my Young's Tina Marie bitch he had bred,also the V. Jackson's Pokey bitch. We bought both those little Coplin bred brood bitches from Don Mayfield. Don had gotten them from another known dog man. Who had bought these dogs when young directly from Mr. Orbie Coplin. Had quit the dog game.
Mr. Coplin liked to talk dogs like Mr. Carl Mims. I almost passed out when I saw my phone bill, my wife was not too happy about it either. LOL From then on we just corresponded through letters. I let Tar Heel Matt read all of those letters during a visit up at Sonny Shropshires.
If I had known what would become of all my books/pedigrees/dog letters. Would have given those letters to Matt along with some of those books. That extra nice red hard bound 70's era book of Pete Sparks collection. V.J. loaned to a young texas dog man. Was never returned,was told the book got stolen. V.J. has the rest of those soft bound Pete Sparks books and much more. He has no dog man to pass it all down to. His sons have no interest in the dogs. Probably all will be lost when he passes. If so will be a great loss. Cheers
CYJ- Because you mentioned VJ and his sons I figured I would mention this.
There is a rumor around my neck of the woods in TX that one of or maybe multiple sons of VJ would steal pups from their father (VJ) and then take them to the flea market "First Monday" in Canton TX and sell them.
Not sure how much truth is in that, just a rumor to me. Just thought of that when I read your comment.
Ditto Treezbulldogs. V.J. had only two sons and a daughter. That may or not be true,as I believe V.J.'s oldest son might have had a drug problem. His name was Chad or maybe Brad. Pretty sure by now he has long recovered from all that.The youngest one was a super smart intellectual type and had no real interest in the dogs.
I asked V.J. if he had tutored another young dog man along the way. He let a young Mexican dog man live on his place to help watch over their dog yards. This fellow has some of V.J.'s earlier bred dogs and some of his own. He may well end up with any of those dogs left. V.J. himself is down to just a handful of dogs.
Those dogs changed a lot from the earlier dogs we had. Adding the Creel & Bully Son stock to our older family of dogs. Increased the size and looks of the dogs a good bit. It was my understanding from some other dog men, that some years back V.J. got very sick and was laid up in the hospital for close to a year. I was told he lost some dogs during that time.
Jackson's very best years in the dogs was back in the 70's,80's, he was way ahead in conditioning knowledge and feeding methods back then. He won twenty nine shows before losing his first show. Vernon lived close to Don Mayfield and learned some things from him.
When living in Florida he spent time either in Georgia or a Florida Veterinarian college. Asking the Professors all sorts of questions about feeding performance dogs etc. He told me some of those Professors would sit for a good while discussing all sorts of dog topics with him.
V.J. grew up around various known Texas dog men and lived in Florida for awhile before moving to S.C. He was good friends with all those Georgia- Florida dog men like Baker Davis/Hands/Hargrove/Ramsey/McDougal/Divine etc. Cheers
brokeback
07-15-2016, 07:24 AM
CYJ- Thanks for the reply and sharing some of the knowledge you continue to share with us. It sure is nice hearing information from a first hand source. That's too bad that sometimes the people who should not be trusted are the closest ones. Family.
Again, thank you.
Take care.
It is funny because Red Boy has been everything from OFRN to Colby to Norrod to Corvino to some of everything in between.
And after all that they are still one of the, if not the most popular line out there. If a person ran an ad on here for pure Red Boy pups they would sell faster than anything on here that is based on winners and production.
I have tried a lot of the versions and the better all around "Red Boy" dogs are the ones when the families or strains are blended. Seen some good ones mixing the Mims version and the Holland version. Mr. Mims has several strains/traits amongst his Red Boy dogs. Many will say the Holland dogs are game plugs and then all of a sudden a stretch of straight Holland Red Boy dogs biting shit in half. The fact Mr. Holland bought dogs from VJ has never been documented in a registry but go figure.
When TVK made the blend of Eli and Red Boy they were scratching like Red Boy dogs and biting like Eli dogs, to use the myths surrounding both groups. Some say these Russ' Buck bred dogs led to the Dynomite dogs doing work today.
The blend to the Jocko dogs when I first got started was one of the more long lasting. Back then they were Jocko-Red Boy dogs. The Red Boy popularity somehow changed all that. That group became rough and durable like Jocko but all the hairs on the body had to be killed to stop them.
And after all the speculation and 'inside knowledge' (LOL) it all boils down to the dog you are standing on top of today. Pretty much the same as it was way back when.
EWO
Ditto EWO,so true. Hope this is not being redundant. When V. Jackson and wife visited with me last summer. I asked him about the Bailey dogs. I did not know or ever met Bailey or Holland. V.J. told me that Bailey bought dogs from him and crossed them with his Red Boy strain of dogs. Had gotten some good results with those crosses.
V.Jackson years back sold three pairs of a male and female breeding's to Holland. Was off three different breeding's. V.J. and wife personally delivered all these young dogs to Holland. Later on nothing much was heard one way or the other how things turned out, according to what V.J. told me.
V.J. later asked Bailey who did not live far from V.J. what he thought happened to those pups he sold and took to Holland. Bailey and Holland from looking at their pedigrees used dogs back and forth. Appeared to be good friends with one another.
Bailey laughed and told V.J. that if any panned out. Holland might have put some Red Boy papers on them and was the end of all that. LOL A lot of Holland's Red Boy dogs looked real stout. I am sure some inbred Red Boy dogs had mouth. But over all they were not known for a hard mouth. Was not till they started crossing up the Red Boy dogs to Carver/Snooty//Jocko/Paladin/Jeep/Bullet II dogs that mouth and wrestling ability greatly improved. IMHO
Very true. I met a guy who bought two from Mr. Holland. The papers showed incredibly in bred Red Boy dogs. The female fit the bill. She was slender and spindly looking, dumb as a stump, but would scratch into an oncoming train.
The male on the other hand was a stout well built dog with really good bone and a hide that was more in tune of a buffalo hide. It took some doing to knock a hole in that coat. He had teeth that looked like 20 penny nails as used them like a Husqvarna. He shook violently as well.
I had a Mims female bred to him and the female I ended up with was the same. We joked we had a Red/Red nose Jackson dog. She was the same as her pure Red Boy sire. She almost looked male like.
It was fun to talk about. End of the day she was a pretty good dog. She won once. When she went back home she was bred to one of my males, had some puppies and then got off the chain. Nipped a good story right in the bud.
EWO