Breeding and Color

[hogdog]

First off, I breed for bulldogs, not color. With that said, I would like to know what color combinations are possible if I breed my red/rednose female to a buckskin dog. Jack, your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

[hogdog]

Just curious...I believe you can only get black if one of the parents is. Is that correct?

[Officially Retired]

Yes and no.

Strictly speaking, you are correct ... unless you really have a chocolate/rednose, because a chocolate-colored dog is a derivative of black :idea:

Many people mistakenly call chocolate dogs "red/rednoses" but they're not ...

Typically, when you breed a chocolate to a buckskin, and get a "black," the dog is not a true black, but a very dark SEAL ... as for instance when I got Stormbringer's sister Black Witch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8385) by breeding the chocolate-colored Coca Cola to the buckskin Poncho.

At the time, I too was ignorant of the fact Black Witch was really a *seal* colored dog (you can tell because her coat had red highlights, whereas a true black does not).

Hope this clarifies,

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

There are rare exceptions. An all white dog with brown patches and a black nose, bred to a black nose black bitch, gave me a red coat with white markings and red nose.

[CRISIS]

geneology is a bitch! lol

[Officially Retired]

There are rare exceptions. An all white dog with brown patches and a black nose, bred to a black nose black bitch, gave me a red coat with white markings and red nose.

Again, two black nose dogs can have recessive genes and throw red coats and noses.

It's two recessive red/rednoses that can't throw dominant black coats and noses.

[evolutionkennels]

Again, two black nose dogs can have recessive genes and throw red coats and noses.

It's two recessive red/rednoses that can't throw dominant black coats and noses.

100 percent correct

[splash747]

http://kippenjungle.nl/kruisingHond.html

[Eliman]

Yes and no.

Strictly speaking, you are correct ... unless you really have a chocolate/rednose, because a chocolate-colored dog is a derivative of black :idea:

Many people mistakenly call chocolate dogs "red/rednoses" but they're not ...

Typically, when you breed a chocolate to a buckskin, and get a "black," the dog is not a true black, but a very dark SEAL ... as for instance when I got Stormbringer's sister Black Witch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8385) by breeding the chocolate-colored Coca Cola to the buckskin Poncho.

At the time, I too was ignorant of the fact Black Witch was really a *seal* colored dog (you can tell because her coat had red highlights, whereas a true black does not).

Hope this clarifies,

Jack

Interested is seeing where you got this info from thanx

[Officially Retired]

Amy Greenwood at the ADBA + any follow-up info on the breed you care to read ...

[Eliman]

Im just interested in the paticulars of chocolate being a derivative of black i have been studying genetics on my own for awhile and have never came across that wanted to see if you could point me in the right direction thanx

RoughNeck

[Officially Retired]

"(As) - DOMINANT BLACK: This allele produces uniform coverage of dark pigment over the entire body. Its action is expressed in all dogs with black or brown coats. The (As) allele is almost completely dominant over others in the A series. The black color ranges from pure black to a black with a brownish cast (seal). Geneticists are uncertain if the allele is incapable to produce pure black without additional help from another locus, or if the brown cast indicates a heterozygous allele."

... "The red nose in our breed is produced from the Locus B pair with the homozygous recessive (bb) genotype in combination with the (Ay-) genotype."

"Question # 3: Where does the chocolate color come from?
The chocolate color comes from the Locus B pair with the homozyous recessive (bb) in combination with the (As) allele. The dilution gene (dd) will also modify this dark chocolate to a light or almost milk chocolate. In most cases, the nose color is also light brown or as we say ‘chocolate/red nose’."


http://www.adbadog.com/p_pdetails.asp?fspid=101

[Eliman]

Thanx Jack

RoughNeck

[Officially Retired]

No problemo :)

[Eliman]

i have read that material a fews times so being that chocolate comes from Locus (B) paired with the recessive (bb) and dominate (As). Two being Dominate black is there reason behind saying chocolate is a derivative of black ?

RoughNeck

[Officially Retired]

It is a mixture of red/rednose (bb) and black (As).

Rather than the black completely dominating, it "combines with" to form a chocolate/rednose ... which is neither a true black dog ... nor a true rednose dog ... but a combination of both.

Jack

[ToTheDogs]

So jack I know we talked about this on another post.... all things being equal should I breed my black or red bb to that bitch to get that cola color? Its a daughter of blaze.

[Officially Retired]

So jack I know we talked about this on another post.... all things being equal should I breed my black or red bb to that bitch to get that cola color? Its a daughter of blaze.

I don't know.

Coca Cola (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=182) was a fierce bitch, with awesome body strength, who TRIED to finish ... but she never had the ability to "finish with one hold" like Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152), nor did she have anywhere near his intelligence or athleticism. She was just awesomely strong, had bad intentions, and was game as a bitch could be.

Of the Coca Cola dogs I had, only Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=211) could kill a dog with one throat hold, and while his awesome body strength came from Coki, his his intelligence and pit savvy came from Poncho. None of Stormy's littermates could do this (although his brother, the blond Crews' Sandy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1678), threw dogs that would finish). Coki's daughter, the blonde Red Sonja (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=180) was pretty much just like Coki. Coki's daughter Bandana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=225) was super-fast and was always looking for the guts or stomach ... and she was a red/rednose ... but, strong and relentless as she was, she was not as awesome a finisher as either Stormbringer or Silverback. Her best son, Ch Vengence (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1126), sired by Silverback's sire, Ouch! (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=153), was a chocolate ... and he was a tactical ace, with a heavy mouth, but I never heard of him being a total finisher, though he did break the windpipe of the last dog he faced. (Likewise, Vengence's blonde brother Techno (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7383) threw the devastating Ch Tulipa (4xW, 4xBIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7382), but she was a buckskin. So the chocolate/seal color is not as dominant in Coki dogs (for me anyway) as it was in Silverback. The trait of finishing in Silverback dogs has been 100% seal so far.

Therefore, to answer your question, my # 1 priority would be THE TRAITS not the color. Your Ch Blaze (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13120) was a chocolate, and he is obviously the standard you're after, as he too was a vastly better dog than Coca Cola herself. Color-wise, black is closer to chocolate (especially if the "black" is really a dark seal), so I would lean that way ... unless the rednose was the better dog. For me, with Coki dogs, Stormbringer was by far the best ... and he was a red/rednose and a light-years better all-around animal than his mother Coki. In short, I am not sure I would make Coki the standard, as she was able to produce better dogs than herself. I would make the ace the standard ... though it is hard for an ace to be able to produce better than himself.

So I would go with TRAITS first, and then (if all else was equal) go with the color that best falls in line with the BEST dog close up that you're trying to breed to.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

I don't know.

Coca Cola (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=182) was a fierce bitch, with awesome body strength, who TRIED to finish ... but she never had the ability to "finish with one hold" like Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152), nor did she have anywhere near his intelligence or athleticism. She was just awesomely strong, had bad intentions, and was game as a bitch could be.

Of the Coca Cola dogs I had, only Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=211) could kill a dog with one throat hold, and while his awesome body strength came from Coki, his his intelligence and pit savvy came from Poncho. None of Stormy's littermates could do this (although his brother, the blond Crews' Sandy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1678), threw dogs that would finish). Coki's daughter, the blonde Red Sonja (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=180) was pretty much just like Coki. Coki's daughter Bandana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=225) was super-fast and was always looking for the guts or stomach ... and she was a red/rednose ... but, strong and relentless as she was, she was not as awesome a finisher as either Stormbringer or Silverback. Her best son, Ch Vengence (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1126), sired by Silverback's sire, Ouch! (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=153), was a chocolate ... and he was a tactical ace, with a heavy mouth, but I never heard of him being a total finisher, though he did break the windpipe of the last dog he faced. (Likewise, Vengence's blonde brother Techno (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7383) threw the devastating Ch Tulipa (4xW, 4xBIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7382), but she was a buckskin. So the chocolate/seal color is not as dominant in Coki dogs (for me anyway) as it was in Silverback. The trait of finishing in Silverback dogs has been 100% seal so far.

Therefore, to answer your question, my # 1 priority would be THE TRAITS not the color. Your Ch Blaze (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13120) was a chocolate, and he is obviously the standard you're after, as he too was a vastly better dog than Coca Cola herself. Color-wise, black is closer to chocolate (especially if the "black" is really a dark seal), so I would lean that way ... unless the rednose was the better dog. For me, with Coki dogs, Stormbringer was by far the best ... and he was a red/rednose and a light-years better all-around animal than his mother Coki. In short, I am not sure I would make Coki the standard, as she was able to produce better dogs than herself. I would make the ace the standard ... though it is hard for an ace to be able to produce better than himself.

So I would go with TRAITS first, and then (if all else was equal) go with the color that best falls in line with the BEST dog close up that you're trying to breed to.

Jack

Would have loved to breed a daughter of stormbringer to machobuck, we almost did it, I believe we discussed it at one time or another.

[Officially Retired]

That should be another addition to the "If Only" chapter in The Hollingsworth Dogs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/Hollingsworth) book ...

[evolutionkennels]

Throat to throat to throat finishing monsters. Well, we kind of did it. The silverbelle bitch off silverback and the burns gyp is really an athlete, super fast, super smart. She's an escape artist, anyhow, the pups off her and Mr. Machobuck are very promising. Really hot and really well built. I have high expectations.

[Officially Retired]

:D

[ToTheDogs]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13126 this guy was a freak of nature. Was stolen and never recovered. A huge loss

[ToTheDogs]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13262 a littermate to this dog is the one I plan on breeding

[ToTheDogs]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13288 this is the bitch