razor's edge a pit bull ?

[canismajor]

can somebody tell me what is a razors edge bloodline ? and how is that it is a pit bull ? maybe i just need to be schooled because i am green and i never dealt with this bloodline, that seems to be popular and expensive. this american bully is confusing... clarity please.

[bigpopdog]

IT'S ONLY POPULAR TO NOVICES.. IF YOU OWN A REAL A.P.B.T THEN YOU ALREADY KNOW WHEN YOU SEEN THOSE DOGS THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING THAT YOU OWN.

[canismajor]

a dishonor to the breed:appl:

[canismajor]

BUT ADBA RECOGNIZES THEM?

[ToTheDogs]

Razors Edge dogs were started from a dog named, "Throwin' Knuckles". He was an old Ruffian/X-Pert cross. A white dog with Blue Cow Patches on him. He, himself, wasn't a horrible looking animal. It's the animals they produced down from his offspring that went to shit. The stuff you own Canismajor is along the same lines as Razors Edge bloodlines, just not AS shitty of a version. Now, that said.. Sierra Nevada Kennels is nothing more than a glorified peddler. She believes, because she shows those mutts in the UKC (which is a joke in it's own) they are worth thousands of dollars for a puppy... She is a SELL FIRST breeder, which is NO GO in our book.

[ToTheDogs]

BUT ADBA RECOGNIZES THEM?

The ADBA recognizes them because they are UKC registered and they recognize UKC and AKC paperwork.

[canismajor]

DO YOU MEAN NEVADA KENNELS AND LARUMS?

[canismajor]

I KNOW MY PUPS PED DOWN TO EARL TUDOR S BLACK JACK BLOODLINE AND DOWN TO CORVINO AND TACOMA BLOODLINES,COLBY'S PINCHER 24W AND I DID NOT FINISH PED YET ON HERE BUT NO RAZOR,

[canismajor]

I WILL REPOST THE PED http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=18090
SORRY THERE IS NOT A CAT. FOR WEIGHT PULL CAT. UKC BECAUSE THATS WHAT THEY ARE. COMPARED THAT TO A RAZORS EDGE

[canismajor]

"NO GO IN OUR BOOKS" SOUNDS LIKE A VOTE

[canismajor]

RAZORS EDGE HAS MASTIFF I DONT SEE MASTIFF IN MY DOGS

[ToTheDogs]

Here's our 7 month old Heinzl/Alligator female.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_013560_01.jpg?646065

[canismajor]

I DONT CONDONE ANY ILLEGAL ACTIVITY, NO ASSUMPTIONS PLEASE. WEIGHT PULLERS AND HOG HUNTERS ONLY. YOUR PUP IS IN GOOD CONDITION. THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN PITTS VS RAZORS EDGE NOT YOURS VS MINE. WERE ARE IN THE SAME BROTHERHOOD. I DONT KNOW WHAT RAZORS EDGE CAN OR CANT DO IN SPORTS. OR GOOD PICS. IT IS TOO BAD YOU AND YOUR BOOKS FEEL THE WAY YOU DO ABOUT MY DOG AND BREEDER . BUT I CAN STILL GIVE YOU CREDIT WERE IT DESERVES. BEST REGARDS

[SteelyDan]

When i first got in dogs, which wasnt too long ago... i got a razors edge/gotti dog. He was a very good weight puller. He beat your dogs dam on many occasions in Nevada. Your dogs dam was high strung but lacked the drive and focus to be a top competitor imo, did a lot of dancing and spinning and not much pulling. Best of luck with the dog you got from Janis. Her and Cheryl are nice people but i wouldn't consider there dogs a WORKING line of dogs, whether it be weight pull or hog hunting or whatever. The pulls they go to and win at are very small and are mostly between them and their friends. There seems to be a great deal of favors in that circle of pullers so that everyone gets to win once in awhile. Razors Edge foundation stock is damn near the same as Nevada and Larums. The razors edge, larums, nevada dogs may be registered as APBTs in UKC and AMSTAFF in AKC... but they arent bulldogs.

[canismajor]

thank you for that info, that makes alot of sense. she (pup) does not have the drive like my mayday. but she has the clear heart,hips and perfect bite. janice and cheryl are nice. but i dont deal with ukc. i have only dealt with adba. but are you saying she is not a pit

[scratchin dog]

Jack, we understand he paid and ignorance is earned, but are these the type of individuals that will be contributing to this site?! If so, we won't be renewing our account. We spent over half our lives dedicated to this breed, we refuse to be disrespected by buffoons.

ToTheDogs: No one will be disrespected here. Personal attacks on other members will not be tolerated. This is why we have mods, to make sure everyone follows the rules. I have already deleted the posts containing the trash talk. I know things can get heated when discussing bulldogs and bully's but we expect discussions to be civilized. We are all adults here and we can help new members understand the difference in breeds without the need for trash talk. If someone says something personal just ignore it or take it to PM's. One of the mods will take care of it. Let us do our job. Thank you.

[scratchin dog]

Canismajor: Please read and follow the rules. Personal attacks on other members will not be tolerated. I am allowing this thread to stay open but if I see any more trash talking, it will be closed.

[R2L]

a dishonor to the breed:appl:

I don't know what's been said and i don't mean to trash talk but the ped i've seen from your puppy is not particular an honor to the breed.

Here's an article for you about Razor Edge.


Razors Edge was started in MD and DC by Dave Wilson and Carlos Barksdale. They started out with game dogs. They researched everything they could find and read every book publicized at that time. The also subscribed to many dog magazines like the ADBA Gazette, even some underground ones. They called nearly every breeder that they could find and questioned them, If it said Pit, they were on it. They already owned some unpapered BYB Pits. They even had there own Pit club and went hiking and other things back in the woods. Eventually they got enough money to get some real papered, good bloodline, game dogs. They purchased some of the best around at the time. Even paid $3500 way back then for a Grandson of the great "Plumbers Alligator", mainly Mayfield lines. Dave and Carlos were very heavy into the game lines and had dogs from Hemphill to Wilder blood. These were big game dogs.
Later on they hooked up with George Williams in DC and purchased a dog they named Diablo, from Wildside Kennels. Diablo's dad was a bigger catch dog, "Hollinsworth Bull". His mom was a game girl names "Wildsides Ms.Leaky". This was the turn around time when Razors Edge started adding more size. The first ever registered "ADBA" Razors Edge breeding was from his Mayfield boy Zeus to a Mayfield girl name Jinx. Jinx was actually given to friend back then named Curt Plater, now CLP Kennels. He owned the first ever Razors Edge dog. They would lose contact after this for many years before hooking up again. They banned Pits in PG County and Dave was forced to move. Eventually through Dave’s job in the Pet Store industry he landed a mangers job at a Pet Store in VA. He had to move to VA and still resides there as Razors Edge Kennel.
Dave managed a Pet Store, worked as a professional dog trainer, and still bred bigger ADBA game dogs. Basically, he bred his own pits now. He also put fliers in the Washington Post explaining what the breed was and what Razors Edge was.
Dave met a guy name Ron Smith who came aboard and took Razors Edge to another level. Dave saw this blue dog named "Steel Town Blue Monday" and was hooked! Ron already knew every UKC and AKC breeder under the sun. He had been researching on his own for years. So this man had all the pictures, info, etc…. He had fliers and pictures from every AKC and UKC breeder from Coast to coast. He literally had pictures of almost all the dogs in all these pedigrees. That man really was the "Pit Guru". He first contacted Cock 'n' Bull Kennels, the ones that produced Monday. They turned them onto people in Cali with that blood. Candace Eggart was one. Candy sent pictures of what she had and what she had going on. Just to give you a time frame, She sold a dog years later to Tony Moore named Showtime! Showtime went on to be one of the foundation bitches in the Greyline bloodline! So this was years before Greyline was even around.
They went to every breeder on the East Coast. Up north to Bobby Morehouse, Beth Jones, a friend of his Lee Fitzgerald, Flying A's, Minot's Ledge, etc. they actually purchased a blue brindle female named "Sadey" from Minot's Ledge. This litter was had an extraordinary pedigree. The top half were mainly Flying A's dogs like "Oreo" and "Reo Speedwagon". Dogs he had seen and liked. You could see in the extended pedigree how these dogs stemmed from Ruffian dogs. Then you could see how it went back even further from the AKC Ruffian dog to the UKC Colby dogs. This top half of the pedigree actually showed how Pits eventually were registered as Staffs! Dave thought that was cool to see on paper and in a dog he owned. Then the bottom half of the ped went right back to Stratton dogs. Dogs like Going light Barney, dogs he grew up reading about! Thanks to Richard Stratton, Then behind them were the same Colby dogs he saw on the top half of the pedigree. So he had this dog that showed the history of the Am. Staff and the directions the Colby line went in the UKC. he also purchased a male named "Razors Edge Blue Maxx". His top half was a dog named "StoryTime's Upon this Rock" AKA "Peter" Peter was a dog bred by Beth Jones. He was a big dog, but kinda ugly. They bred him to "Wassuc's Farm Maggie May". Dave really liked this compact girl. He researched her lines and found she was Ryan. When they got to see the Ryan dogs they were surprised to see they were game dogs. They were AKC registered Staffs, but they still bred for game dogs! This was something Dave had never seen, I'm sure that's why the AKC people didn't like that line, . However; Dave loved it! Bully, game, blue, staffs! Now that's what I am talking about! Maxx was there boy from this blood. Now Razors Edge was big ADBA game dogs, one UKC Blue Brindle girl, and a Big hot Blue Fawn AKC boy.
In Va there was Sharon Stone of Cloverhill, who had the biggest Staffs Dave had ever seen! Her old stuff was huge! Too tall for what he was looking for, but huge! They changed years later and went more showy. Paco, was in Dave’s opinion actually a throw back of her older days. Ginny York, Pam Perdue, GiGi, the Garretts, etc….they visited them all. Even went down to Florida and checked out Marsha Woods. Met KC Courtier of Watchdog Kennels. Eventually, went up to Md and met Kimmar Kennels. As soon as Dave stepped on the ranch, he knew he had found the build he was looking for! The Razors Edge package was almost complete.
Razors Edge also had been advertising in the Washington Post for many years. Some young dudes from DC used to come down and hang out and bring their dogs. Edwin Salinas and Joey Nevils were two of them. These guys had been buying dogs from Kimmar and mixing their own stuff in them too. Kimmar used to have an ad in the post under the Pit Bull ads, it said "Petey pups". They didn't want their dogs to be labeled as Pits; but they advertised directly under Pits? Hmmmmmm? Not as Staff? Anyway, local people knew the deal and picked up a lot of her dogs. Joey, Edwin, Joey's pops, and their boys had a bunch of these dogs. Even some old friends of Dave’s Jerry and Gerrold had yards with these dogs. They all had game stuff in the mix. dave tapped into a lot of their dogs as well.
In Kimmar's yard he learned a lot about breeding and genetics. Dave spent every weekend there for almost three years, and actually put on a training class for all her buyers every Sunday.

Razors Edge had been breeding now for a few generations and even used a lot of her dogs from other people in the mix. Ron, also had some York dogs, and some other AKC stuff, they experimented with. Before they got Knuckles or any of them, Razors Edge was already in the game. Kimmar actually used there dog Maxx for some breedings. Eventually we purchased around 15 dogs from her line, including Knuckles and Rage. While these pups were growing, Razors Edge already had it's formula. They just wanted a different head. They were not given papers on some of these dogs and they had to be UKC registered instead! This is where Razors Edge became heavily involved in UKC. Dave started searching for a better head and came into some Watchdog stuff. KC was not breeding anymore, so he had to find that blood somewhere else. he bought dogs from Grapevine Kennels, and also hit up Hughzee's, who he believe later on became Chaos Kennels. They had been talking to Pam from Gaff Kennels for a few years, and really liked a boy name Seiko! So they got a dog from her. So Dave experimented with a lot of lines and different dogs. Razors Edge started having a real consistent look. The heads were big, but they still wanted them to be a little blockier. A few generations later it was pretty much there.

So by taking combinations of dogs and bloodlines Dave eventually got to the style of pitbull he wanted, now called "Bully Style" of Pitbulls, Meaning large in size, such as a large head, wide chest, short blocky muzzles, large, but not over done bone, and a shorter back, but at the same time correct as the United Kennel Club and American Kennel Club judge by.
Razors Edge purchased a pup from the breeding of Kimmars Catt Man Roo and Pam’s White Path China Black. These two dogs produce a few dogs in the litter that helped to promote the Razors Edge line, dogs such as: GR CH Razors Edge Throwin Knuckles, CH Razors Edge Inna Rage, and Razors Edge Sapphire Lil. Another breeding that produced one of the most famous Bitches in the history of Razors Edge was between Ch. Jackson’s GMJ Mr. Brooks and Razors Edge SilverSadey of ML which produced GR. CH. Razors Edge Sadey’s Paddington and also Kim's Blue Dekota. Dave used Ch. CloverHill’s Watuka Spirit AKA Paco and bred him to Paddington, which produced the legendary CH. Razors Edge Purple Rose of Cairo, the most famous dog of all the Razors Edge dogs today in my opinion. Razors Edge Kenna Claddaugh, Razors Edge Top Notch Chino, Razors Edge Chi Chi of Trueblue, Tonka and Jigga and Iced Mocha are also productions from this breeding.
When the time was right the grand champion knuckles was bred to Paddington, which produced another female, named Viagra. Viagra was bred to the legend Cairo and produced one of my favorite males Razors Edge V’s Lil Ro, AKA "RO". They also produced Cai, Diva, Caira and a few more. RO lives his own legacy today in producing some beautiful dogs such as suarez bulls paco and genuine Edge's Toxic, and Titan Kennels Titan, just to name a few of my favorite males out of him. A friend of mine at Bully Loaded Kennels also has a son, Quake, and daughter, Faith, off of him that will be very nice when there older. Cairo was also bred to a few other females but I won’t name them all just ones that come to mind, some of the important ones in my eyes, such as the Cairo and Koi Breeding. Koi who is out of GR CH Knuckles and Dakota (Paddingtons sister), was bred to Cairo and produced Rage, Neela, Brooklyn, Shamrock, Rolli, Rosetta, and Diamond. Cairo was also bred to tiki and produced a male by the name of Hennessy. Cairo was also bred to my friends dog trixie of blackout kennels in VA and produced his male Gooda, Bo at Bow Wow Kennels,Denile at Razors Edge Kennel, one of my personal favorite females of Razors Edge bloodline and two others that go by Bosko and Bun. The cairo side of razorsedge is just a fraction of the bloodline. The line has been taking in different directions but everythang basically stems from the knuckles, paddington, and rage blood.
Another well known producing dog is Razors Edge CLP's Short Shot, Short Shot is off of Buckshot and Rage, and is also a grandson to Knuckles on Buckshots side and Rage is Knuckles sister. Shortshot has done a few breedings is his life, such as Diamond, and more recently Paradise and Steel. there is also sections of the blood that are almost like a line in its own depending on what your looking for, you got the Cairo side, the shortshot side, the you got manu side, dozer daisy line breedings, which all of this basically ties into each and every dog produced from razorsedge yard in the very beginning! You just have to connect them all together. It's the facts of producing outstanding dogs from the start and putting time and effort and lots of money into building a dream.
Razors Edge Kennel has been involved in learning, breeding, showing, training and raising the American Pitbull Terrier for well over 15 years and it keeps getting better! Razorsedge will not die! It will live on through Dave’s kids, friends, and mainly in his dogs! Razors Edge is a bloodline for everyone, it offers show quality dogs, bully correct dogs, bully dogs, and overdone dogs, overdone meaning extreme bone, head, and chest, at the same time very nice dogs, but dogs that would not be able to win in the show ring. So if you want a real pitbull where there females outdo other kennels males go to Razors Edge Kennel and they can point you in the right direction!
dogs. And not all blue dogs are alike.

And here's another article about blue APBT and am staffs.


In Wayne D. Brown's book HISTORY OF THE AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER, on pages 25 and 26 he note’s that in the late 1930’s one of the most important bloodlines of Pit Bulls were the Lightner dogs. He illustrates that in the conventions of 1936 and 1937, there were Lightner dogs of the dark variety and Lightner dogs of the red nose variety, and a classic confrontation of the two. When Bob Hemphill wrote Lightner that they were going to use Hall's Searcy Jeff, of the red nose Lightner strain, in the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 at Medicine Park Oklahoma, Lightner wrote back that the red nose blood in Jeff was as game was would ever be bred, and, further that the black and blue breeding in (Runyon's Colorado) Imp (II) was as game as would ever be bred...So, the contest between Hall's Searcy Jeff and Runyon's Colorado Imp II at the Oklahoma Convention of 1936 was a classic confrontation between the red nose Lightner dogs and the dark Lightner dogs. Earl Tudor handled Imp and he proved to be game. Jeff had punished Imp severely around the head and nose and Tudor picked him up. However, he scratched Imp and he went across with his nose bumping the ground, unable to get his head up, but he took a foothold on Jeff. Jeff beat Imp in 54 minutes. Later, Hall's Searcy Jeff was to beat Imp's brother Colorado Dan, also...After Searcy Jeff had beaten Colorado Imp II and Colorado Dan, their owner, Jeff Runyon, quit the game and sold his dogs. This is one of the few times I have ever found in literature, blue dogs before 1936. The year 1936 was the year the AKC finally recognized the, as it was then known, Stafforshire Terrier. This was the year that the red nose dogs defeated the blue blooded dogs. The dogs of this blood was sold but it is not said who to, although it is mentioned that at least some of these dogs found their way to Joe Corvino who, for a time at least, was involved in the formation of the AKC American Staffordshire Terriers. Dogmen wanted winning GAME dogs back then, and Imp certainly proved his gameness that day against Jeff, in a stumbling scratch. Many a true dogmen would have been more than happy to have an Imp bred dog in their yard. Back then game losers weren’t penalized, and were worthy of being bred. I know that AmStaff people regard the red noses with abhorrence, and I also know that Game folks today don't care for the blue color. Actually most of them can’t stand it at all because most of the time (but not always) a blue dog stands for being bred for looks and looks alone. I do have to wonder though what the American Pit Bull Terrier would look like today if Imp II had won that fight compared to the American Staffordshire Terrier?

Whether or not people want to believe it, blue is a legitimate color in the American Pit Bull Terrier gene pool as evidenced and show further more by the Blue Paul, or sometimes called blue Poll. A Scottish strain now extinct, but whose descendants clearly live on in today’s blue dogs.

These solid blue or solid red Scottish gladiators resembled the fighting Staffordshires of England but could weigh twice as much. The blue dogs were known in Scotland as Blue Pauls, and the reds as Red Smuts. The name Blue Paul derives from a Scottish yarn about the pirate Paul Jones who reportedly brought the dogs from abroad to the district of Kirkintilloch.

The dogs were popular with the gypsies of that district who maintained that the dogs originally came from the Galloway coast, lending more color than blue to the Paul Jones tale. Like the bull and terrier breeds from which they derived, the Blue Pauls were game to the death in the ring. These dogs remained mute even at the height of battle, very much like the Tosa of Japan.

In appearance, the Blue Paul was similar in appearance to the Bullmastiff of the late 1800s. The dog was a smooth coated cobby dog weighing about 45 lbs (20.5 kg), standing 20 inches (51 cm) at the shoulder. The head was large, the muzzle short and square. The jaws and lips were even, without overhanging flews. The stop was slight: eyes, dark hazel. The ears, set on high, were invariably cropped. The face was wrinkleless but the eyebrows were contracted or knit. Mr. James B. Morrison of Greenock, England reported that the last Blue Paul exhibited was shown in the late 1880s."

Many people claim that the Blue Paul is now extinct. It may very well be extinct in its pure form, but they were probably crossed with The Pit Bull Terriers in England and Ireland, and the Pit Bull Terriers were brought to America from Scotland. In 1857, McCaffrey imported the dog Spring from Glasgow, Scotland to America. At that time Glasgow was the center of Blue Paul activity. In 1858, in Rhode Island, Spring won a fight in 1 hour, 35 minutes. In 1859 he won a fight in 2 hours 15 minutes. In 1860, in Boston, he beat Tom Story's dog in 2 hours 40 minutes. Spring was bred to Maid of Erin, who was an imported bitch from Dublin Ireland and produced Young Spring. Young Spring won a fight in 1 hour 15 minutes. In 1862 he beat Sheffield George's dog in 3 hours 17 minutes, in New York. When Spring was bred to John Mahon's imported bitch he produced Jeff who won a fight in Providence, Rhode Island in 1 hour. He later won against miller's dog in 1 hour 10 minutes. In 1864 he won another fight in 1 hour 10 minutes. Dick, another son of Spring, won a fight against Spring's Hope in 1 hour 17 minutes. Power's Violet was imported to America from Scotland by her Scottish owner and, on January 10, 1892, beat a dog named Spright in Massachusetts. They fought at Catch weight. Her size, plus her name which indicates a dark blue color, leads to the possibility that she might have been a Blue Paul.

If the above dogs were Blue Pauls, their bloodline was surly continued in America and others were probably imported to America, England, and Ireland as well.
Brown also writes in his book that W.C. Roper bred some game dogs from stock sent to him by Jim Williams and Bob Wallace. Some of Roper's dogs were silver buckskin in color, such as Silver Jack and Roper's (William's) Silver. Roper's Silver won 4 fights at 58 pounds, and another Tudor's Black Jack (16xW) was, according to Earl Tudor, from a Delihant's Paddy/Wichita Mike bloodline. His sire was Black Tige who was sired by Blue Mike. Blue Mike was out of Miss Blue who was sired by Imported Roger out of Henry's Blue Mary. The sire of Blue Mike was Wichita Mike who was out of Henry's Blue Madge and sired by Henry's Black Demon. Several pages later he writes "As we have seen, Tudor's Black Jack was important to the Tacoma line but he was also important to the Ruffian line of American Staffordshire Terriers. He was not only important in the development of pit dogs, including the Dibo line, but he formed the basis for the Ruffian line".

Someone new to the breed always ask what the difference is between an AKC American Staffordshire Terrier, and a UKC or ADBA American Pit Bull Terrier? When told to the truth, the true history behind the breed most say they don't fight their dogs so why should they even have to know all that stuff? The truth is, if you own a Staffordshire or a American Pit Bull Terrier, it is irresponsible of you not to know the truth, the true history behind the breed.

In Richard Pascoe’s book, "The American Staffordshire Terrier" he mentions that there are five major lines in the foundation of the American Staffordshire Terrier. Tacoma, X-pert, Ruffian, Crusader, and "California" which is not actually a line, but a combination of lines. The Tacoma was developed by Charles Doyle and Al Brown beginning with the whelping of Tacoma Jack in 1927. The Tacoma line is influenced by Corvino blood early in its history. The Tacoma line is known for its courage and working ability.

The X-Pert line traces its pedigrees back to Colby, Feeley, Corrington, Tudor and Morris. Alberta and Cliff Ormsby began the line with the whelping of Ormsby's Madge in 1930. The Ruffian line was started by Clayton Harriman in 1938 with the whelping of The Ruffian, bred by F C Klump. The Ruffian line was influential in the development of many other lines, notably E C Ringold's Gallant line, beginning with CH Gallant Ruff and the Har-wyn line of Peggy Harper which finds its foundations in the breeding efforts of Harriman and Whittaker. One of her greats was CH Sky King of Har-Wyn ( half X-Pert). The California lines were strongly influenced by Ruffian and Gallant. Early breeders appearing in California pedigrees include Steele, Gregory, Freese, Farley, Wiswall and Harrison. CH Harrison's Bozo boy was bred by RC Steele and whelped in 1936. The Chatworth Kennels of Ray and Ina Harris include dogs of Freese, Harrison and Wakefield derivation. Rossmore's Naughty Knight, who sired the foundation of the Crusader line, was bred by Gladys Smith. The Crusader line was started in 1950 by Ike and Jean Stinson. In 1955, Smith's breeding of CH Rossmore's Naughty Knight x CH Gallant Susie Q produced CH Knight Crusader, CH Knight Bomber and CH Knight Patroller. All of these dogs played a major role in the development of the Crusader line. The development of all other kennels in the breed come from combinations of these original foundation lines. Notably Sertoma, Archer, Sierra, Tryarr, Willynwood, White Rock, to name a few.

The foundation of the X-Pert line began in 1932 with Bennett's Buck x Ormsby's Madge. Ormsby's Madge (Corrington's Bennetts Mack x Bennetts Queen) Corringtons Bennetts Mack (Corringtons Tiger Jim Jr x Corringtons Mae Rose) Corringtons Mae Rose was a Tudors Jack II daughter. Her dam, Corrington's Jenny Queen was a Colby bitch. (Colby's Dan x Colbys Blinkey). Bennetts Queen was Colby through her dam, Sharon Madge (Pitts Duke x Pitts Bebe) If you trace the pedigree back two or three generations from there, you will find Colbys Disby, Colbys Bess, Colbys Galtie, Colbys Nancy, Colbys Roger, Colbys Pansy, and Colbys Sally. The X-Pert bloodline is one of oldest in AmStaffs. It was started in 1930 by Clifford & Alberta Ormsby. They lived in Hornell, NY. Clifford Ormsby was 25 years old, and Alberta was 22 when they began their breeding program. The foundation bitch of the X-Pert bloodline is Ormsby's Madge. Cliff bought her in Texas.

Clifford Ormsby: "...I started with this great breed when you could buy a Pit Bull pup for $5.00. Many times this pup had flat feet, narrow chest, no brisket, bowed legs, fiddle front, cow-hocks, was undershot and had an unreliable temperament. You could shop around and find some desirable ones but it was a problem to find good dominant breeders of quality...."

Ormsby's Madge was sired by famous pitbull Bennett's Mack, who was also known as Corrington's Mack C. Bennett's Mack was Corrington breeding. His bloods was a cross of Smith & Tudor's lines. Both lines had influence of old Henry bloodline, that was developed by Frank G.Henry in 1890's. But Tudor's dogs were mostly black part of the Henry line, when Charles Smith's dogs were more of the red part of the Henry line and more outcrossed than Tudor's. Tudor's part of Bennett's Mack pedigree was Tudor's Jack II, son of the great Tudor's Black Jack 16xW. In 1930's Tudor's gamedogs were as a sign of success. Earl Tudor of Oklahoma, or Oklahoma Kid as most dogmen of that time called him, was just 22 years old in 1915 when he won with Jack Swift. Earl became well known dogman all over the country in 1920's with his 16 times winner Black Jack dog and 9 times winner Black Jack Jr. There were many breeders in that time who decide to use Tudor's stuff in their breedings. Corrington was one of these breeders of that time. Ok, back to Ormsby's Madge... Her dam was Bennett's Queen, a cross of Hogan's & Pitts' lines. Hogan line was built on Henry blood. Some of Charles Smith's breedings are behind Hogan's too. Pitts' line was mostly old Colby's bloods with some Henry.

Clifford Ormsby was born in Hornell, NY on August 24, 1905. Alberta also was born in Hornell 3 years later, on June 29, 1908. They were good friends in fact they grew up together a couple of streets apart. Young Cliff had about every animal there was to have. His first dogs were not purebred, and Cliff wanted to have a purebred dog that had spirit. Shortly after they were married Clifford & Alberta decided to take a pure pitbull. In 1930 Cliff went to Leonard,Texas, he took the dog, that he wanted. This was a female from W.F.Bennett's breeding, out of the famous pitbull dog Bennett Mack & Bennett Queen. The name of this female pup is well known to many Am Staff breeders, ORMSBY'S MADGE. It was the start, a Great start!

In 1938 Clifford built a kennel. It was the very modern kennel for that time. There was a water heating system in the kennel floor. He put hot water system himself. When Clifford spoke about his kennel, he said: "Dr. Byer ( Ormsby's veterinarian) come down and asked, "Who built this kennel, who made this kennel for you?" I said, "I did!" He said that," this is a good layout for a small kennel." The heating in the floor, that's the most economical heating too. You see, you've got to put it in right. This is six to eight inches on center, I think three quarter inch wide. I know there's about seventy elbows in it. It has two units, there was no sense in that becouse I never divided it. I always used the whole thing. I have a pressure pump. I can put it on automatically...... "

In the beginning of Cliff & bert's Staffordshire Terrier breeding, Cliff wasn't interested in "showing" of their dogs. Alberta changed his mind though. She said, " If we're going to have dogs, I'm going to show". The first dogs they shipped to Willfred Brandon. Alberta was very interested in handling their dogs herself. And the first super champion of the X-Pert family, shown by Alberta in many dog shows was the legendary Ch. X-Pert Brindle Biff. He was the favorite dog of Clifford, Alberta & their daughter, Dorothy. When Peggy Doster asked Alberta, "What is the name of the best dog or bitch you ever bred?" Alberta said: "Biff. He was my first dog. I suppose I'm partial. You know, first show dog. I took him to shows all over the country. I showed him all over. I took him all over the place & he won all over the country. I'd go in the ring and people would say:"There goes that woman, again, with that dog"".

Alberta was licensed to judge Stafs & Boxers. She began to judging in '40'. In 1995 Peggy Doster asked Alberta: "Why did you decide to begin judging?". Alberta said this: " It got me out to California and it got me away from cleaning up kennels at home. It wasn't long ago that they wanted to know if I would come out there and judge the dogs. They had read on their catalog that I had been out there in 1979. Wouldn't I look cute....trying to judge dogs. .....Boxers and Stafs and any breed I can quality for, but I don't want to. You know, too much for me, I don't want to get out there and get sick or something, you know."

Alberta: " I was out in Califonia, judging, and I had Am Staff in the ring that was all chewed up in his head. I said, "This dog was in fight. That was in 49', I think. And he said: "Yes, he had a fight yesterday, they fought him." And I said "He did? He's all chewed up." I said, "Will he shakes hands with me?" He said, "Yeah, but he shakes with his hind leg." He stuck his hind leg up to me and shook hands."

Hope that helps

[tasoschatz]

Short deviation from the main subject, if the semen of this catch dog "Hollingsworth Bull" works, some pricey pups will appear.

[Officially Retired]

Jack, we understand he paid and ignorance is earned, but are these the type of individuals that will be contributing to this site?! If so, we won't be renewing our account. We spent over half our lives dedicated to this breed, we refuse to be disrespected by buffoons.

Um, if you seriously think I am going to ban people for not knowing much about these dogs, think again. We all started out ignorant at some point. True, some people remain ignorant, and some don't, but to criticize "my site" because you didn't like, or agree with, something some new member posted is not only unfair, it is laughable.

I try to run an ultra-clean board here, and I try to keep it centered on only dog-relevant content, and I also try to enforce some general sense of civility as well ... but I cannot be expected to monitor every post, every second, of every day :rolleyes:

The simple fact is, "internet arguments happen." You might also want to consider how your own attitude may have played a roll in how it happened :idea:

Regardless, Scratchin Dog saw the BS and removed it, including your own BS. So why all the crybaby talk? I mean, if you are so thin-skinned that you cannot survive an internet insult being posted for a few minutes/hours during the day, before it's removed, then that is something you'll have to square with yourself. The funny thing is both of you are wailing to me about wanting to jump out ... I mean, is it really that bad? :lol:

On the one hand, ToTheDogs, you say you won't be renewing your account ... over something I neither said nor did ... and which my moderator took care of ... and, on the other hand, CanisMajor, you're telling me by PM that you wish to commit "internet suicide" and want me to remove you from the database as well ... again, all over an internet post ... and all I can really do is sit here and laugh my ass off at the both of you and wonder how in the world either one of you has the mettle to handle a bulldog :lol:

I suggest you both wipe away your tears, and get over yourselves. Really, step back and take a look at all this from an outsider's perspective ... trust me, it's ridiculous :mrgreen:

Folks, this was just a flippin' internet argument on a dog site ... a lil tussle over egos and opinions ... that I neither started, nor got involved in ... and it's been addressed and removed by my moderator ... so calm down. Relax. There really is no need to kill yourselves (or your online presence here) :lol:

Most folks understand that, in any group of people (especially the larger it gets), sometimes individuals are going to disagree. And, sometimes, individuals are going to be rude to each other. It is okay to disagree, and if people get rude enough, we will delete the posts. That is pretty much all we can be expected to do, and so (again) instead of crying and threatening to "jump out" ... how about manning-up and asking yourselves how your own bad attitudes might have offended the other guy :idea:

Jack

[R2L]

We all started out ignorant

Word

It's cliché but the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

[CrazyRed]

Word

It's cliché but the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

Yup, another Cliche, "dont argue with fools, because from a distance you can't tell who is who."

[canismajor]

I WANT TO THANK EVERY ONE FOR ALL THE GREAT INFORMATION. AND SAY SORRY TO THE PIT BULL BIBLE CREW AND CA JACK FOR THIS. I AM SORRY TOALLDOGS FOR MY IGNORANCE, AND ANY DISHONOR I HAVE BROUGHT TO THE BREED.

[SteelyDan]

Don't matter what the breeding is behind that dog, if you like working dogs work that dog!! I got my feet wet with the first dog I ever owned...didn't have the breeding to be a top competitor some would say. He turned out to be a UKC Gr Ch and an ADBA Ace. He was a decent catch dog and an outstanding house dog. That dog taught me a lot about dogs and working with them. It was always fun to pull out the blue dog n whoop some ass hahaha.

All registered dogs go back to famous pit dogs of yore. The important thing is that the breeders in between your dog and those dogs kept the dogs true. I'm sorry to say the breedes behind the dog in question did not keep them true. That is why I say they are not BULLDOGS.

[EWO]

I love this saying because it reminds me of my instructor in dive school in Panama City. He was a master diver and the nicest thing anyone could ever say about him was he was dick, he had a heart of gold but he was a dick. And he would say, 'Son, always remember there is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people who ask questions'. But I guess 30 years underwater does not exactly warm the heart for conversation. EWO




Word

It's cliché but the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

[EWO]

Sort of off topic and not to get any negativity restarted. Just a 'funny' to keep the moment light. EWO

[realpitsnobull]

What up peps y'all hv good points but take it from a guy who has both this blues and bully stuff is getting old if some one has papers from UkC, ADBA, BFKC or what ever top kennel clubs cause I got all three and it says pitbull and the owner wants to call it a pitbull that's what the f it is! It's there$$$ they can call it what they want! But u don't hv to agree . I have sporting dog UkC blues myself http://www.bullypedia.net/americanbully/details.php?id=132557&gens=9 The top is the edge,gotty,watchdog type cross the bottom the same with more sporting and Yorks cross . Now this cross makes mostly blues with the sporting look and act some hotter than others but i am not bully fan but my male 60 or so has close look to bully but not really just big my female blue looks like a pit dog just blue she bout 45 . And they have a shut a few peps up but i will not compare them to my rednose line just different. This cross has even made a hater that has not even got a dog from me before make fake posts about my blues cause he on that bully pitbull ishhhh. My point is there are differents types of American pitbull terriers lets just face it there are super bully dogs and more sporting dogs to each is own call it what u want.

[jimtom34]

I have a friend who is into this, they have bred all types of dogs together to get a look. Pits, staffs , English Bulldogs, French bulldogs, pugs, mastiffs, exc.. backyard breeding at its best:(

[CRISIS]

a saying stuck in my head from years back.......

if your driving a ford thats fine, but call it a ford...not a chevy.....

bang all the hookers you like,.....just admit that you payed for it!

[realpitsnobull]

Well if he wants to spend his $$ and time breeding every dog in the world why wld u care just don't get one of his mutts ! And what happens when the ford company joins with a overseas company is it still a ford? Or if it has a ford body with a Chevy motor and u still lose the race will it matter or when u take your female friend to dinner and a movie and u get laid after did u pay for it ! It don't matter if a dog is born in a back yard or a fancy home all that matters at the end of the day is what can it do!! Period and every Real Dogman knows that!!

[Black Hand]

Well if he wants to spend his $$ and time breeding every dog in the world why wld u care just don't get one of his mutts ! And what happens when the ford company joins with a overseas company is it still a ford? Or if it has a ford body with a Chevy motor and u still lose the race will it matter or when u take your female friend to dinner and a movie and u get laid after did u pay for it ! It don't matter if a dog is born in a back yard or a fancy home all that matters at the end of the day is what can it do!! Period and every Real Dogman knows that!!

They are just analogies my friend. Those dogs have their place, as designer dogs. Kind of like a cockapoo or a labradoodle.

[canismajor]

First, it is important to know that Staffordshire Terrier and “pit bull” are not official breeds, but rather common terms used to describe a certain type of dog. There are actually many dog breeds that can be easily confused and are often mistakenly referred to as pit bulls. The correct designations are:

American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT) - recognized by the ADBA (American Dog Breeder’s Association) and UKC (United Kennel Club)
American Staffordshire Terrier (AST) - recognized by the AKC (American Kennel Club)
Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT) - recognized by the AKC and UKC

These breeds are essentially the same dogs but have been bred for different purposes and/or size standards since the mid 1930's. Some are even dual registered (i.e., registered as an American Pit Bull Terrier with the UKC and as an American Staffordshire Terrier with the AKC). Petey the Pup from The Little Rascals was among the first American Pit Bull Terriers to be registered with the AKC as an American Staffordshire Terrier.

How can we tell the difference? We can't, really. We can only try to guess the breed based on subtle characteristics. Note that even experts can't always tell if a pit bull is an APBT, an AST or a SBT. Even with DNA testing, many known purebred dogs come up with results of mixed breed lineage. For the average pit bull owner, however, these distinctions are not really relevant. As a general rule, dogs of these breeds tend to have stable and loving temperaments.

The American Pit Bull Terrier (APBT)
Like many other common breeds, including Labrador Retrievers, Greyhounds, German Shepherds, and the Parsons (or “Jack”) Russell Terrier, the American Pit Bull Terrier is essentially a canine athlete. As the UKC points out, during the nineteenth century breeders in the British Isles began to experiment with crosses between terriers and Bulldogs in hopes of finding a dog with the “gameness” of a terrier and the athleticism of a Bulldog (a very different dog from the English Bulldog of today). This original breed, which later resulted in the breeds we now call the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier, and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier, came to America with immigrants during the late nineteenth century. Just as the Bulldog was originally bred for bull and bear baiting, dog fighting was part of the APBT’s original purpose. But as the UKC also notes, the breed’s many talents did not go unnoticed, and the APBT was also used as an all-purpose farm dog and family companion.

Today, the APBT is bred for a wide variety of purposes, so it is difficult to make generalizations about appearance or purpose. While some APBTs may be directly from fighting lines (“game bred”), many are genetically far removed from their fighting ancestors. Aggression or reactivity toward other dogs or animals can range from non-existent to very high to somewhere in between. For more information on pit bulls and other dogs go to: http://www.pbrc.net/breedinfo4.html

While aggression toward other dogs can be relatively common among pit bulls, aggression toward humans has never been a normal trait among these breeds. Pit bulls were not bred to be aggressive towards humans or for guarding purposes. This is one reason why they score so highly in tests such as the American Temperament Test Society’s standardized temperament test: http://www.atts.org

An often-overlooked fact of the APBT’s history is that human aggressive dogs have been actively culled from bloodlines. In the world of fighting, it is not useful or desirable for a dog to attack handlers or spectators. Not all APBT breeders breed for the pit, though. Many breed for conformation, temperament, weight-pulling, obedience trials, or therapy work. Regardless of their purpose, APBTs share the same physical and mental characteristics of a lean and athletic body, agility, courage, and stable personality.

Because breeding purpose varies so widely among APBTs, less consideration is paid to conformation (how closely the dog matches a set physical standard for the breed). As these pictures show, APBTs can look quite different from one another. In general, however, APBTs can weigh as little as 30 lbs. and as much as 70 lbs. News reports of “pit bulls” weighing in excess of 100 lbs. should be taken with a grain of salt. These dogs are either not pit bulls at all or are mixes of some sort.The AST or “Amstaff” used to be the same dog as the APBT but was completely taken out of the pit in the mid 1930s. In 1936, the AKC opened its studbooks to a few APBTs that fit their standards and came up with the name “Staffordshire Terrier.” In 1972, the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier to avoid confusion with the newly recognized "Staffordshire Bull Terrier" from England. The only dogs that can properly be called American Staffordshire Terriers are those from AKC-registered bloodlines.

ASTs are primarily bred for conformation and good temperament. They have a set height standard of 18 to 19 inches for males and 17 to 18 inches for females. They usually weigh between 50 to 80 lbs., which should be in proportion to their height. They may be a little stockier than the APBT but not always. “The dog’s chief requisites,” the AKC explains, “should be strength unusual for his size, soundness, balance, a strong powerful head, a well-muscled body, and courage that is proverbial.”

Red (or “Dudley”) noses are considered a fault according to the AKC’s breed standard, and this physical trait has been bred out of most AST lines. Red-nosed dogs are common in APBT lines. This may help you differentiate between the breeds. If the dog has a red nose, it is more likely to be of APBT than of AST lineage.Because the AST and APBT have the same ancestors (some are even dual-registered), they have a similar look and similar personalities.

Staffordshire Bull Terrier (SBT, Staffie or Stafford)
Staffies remain very popular in England, but they are less common in the United States. They share common ancestors with the APBT and AST, therefore exhibit many of the same breed traits. Staffordshire Bull Terriers should be 14-16" at the shoulder height and at 24 to 34 lbs., they are noticeably smaller, though, and their ears are rarely cropped. They are essentially bred for good disposition and conformation. The AKC points to the Staffie Bull’s “affection for its friends” as well as “off-duty quietness” and “trustworthy stability,” all of which make it “a foremost all-purpose dog.” They are often referred to as "nanny dogs" because they are excellent with children. Typically, dogs labeled in a shelter as a SBT are wrongly labeled as such.American Bully
The American Bully is a "type" and not a recognized breed. It first appeared in the 1990s and was created by crossing American Pit Bull Terriers and American Staffordshire Terriers. There is some speculation that English Bulldog was also used in this type's development due to the abundantly low carriage and overall shape. American Bullies vary in looks, but all share the same bullfrog-like appearance. While the American Bully type certainly looks tough, it is a conformationally exaggerated dog with emphasis on extremes: wide, short, jowly and slow-moving. They are not as athletic as their bully breed relatives and may suffer from crippling health problems as they age like English Bulldogs and other breeds bred for a certain look. According to American Bully breeders, gameness and dog-aggression have been bred out, thereby, creating a dog highlighting the characteristics of loyalty and stability with people.

[jimtom34]

LMFAO!!! very true!!

[tasoschatz]

There are working staffies in UK actually.

[realpitsnobull]

And the USA

[ToTheDogs]

There are working staffies in UK actually.

Yeah, but it's a stated FACT by the dog men in the UK, that they are mediocre dogs and the APBT is much better working dog.

[tasoschatz]

Yes, it is, nobody said the oposite.

[SacRedBoy]

The American Pit Bull Terrier is bred for only one purpose although it can do a variety of things.. And only one way to test fuck the DNA test... Lol... If you've got an APBT that comes from untested lines and is bred for other things.. Might as well call it a staff. Cause it ain't no real APBT ...

[FrostyPaws]

There are a shit ton of mediocre bulldogs alive and well all over the world, and they're being bred and producing more mediocrity. Whether staffs are mediocre really isn't relevant in the bulldog world. The simple fact that some are still working at least points in some direction of someone trying to do the right thing with them. On the other hand, mediocre bulldogs are bred because people have no fuckin idea what it means to own or breed quality dogs. That's a sad state of affairs.