Kibble vs. Raw

[AGK]

I figured I would start this thread here since it's all over the other forums and seeing as Jack is a Raw food guru I would like his opinion, as well as others, on this topic. Limey and I have been debating this topic every which way lately and I'm curious as to other peoples opinions/input on this subject other than His or mine. I will never believe a balanced kibble diet is better than feeding a balanced Raw diet. I have done both for quite a few years and have seen the difference with my own eyes. In my opinion, kibble is in no way better to feed than Raw when both are fed the right way. I also believe kibble was made to mimic a dogs natural diet and for the convience of someone who would rather throw some kibble in a dish rather than make a raw meal so it's essentually all about convience to the consumer. Would love to hear others views on this topic, Limey you too even though i already know how you feel but since you sell kibble your opinion is bias in my opinion.... ;)

[CRISIS]

limey already got owned on that topic.... on here.... i believe.... to many forums to keep track of....

[AGK]

I must have missed it, any idea the title of that thread?

[AGK]

Nevermind I found it :)

[R2L]

I think Limey doesn't respond anymore because he is to busy teaching his students the art of feeding kibble. Word is he plays starwars music while busting the myths.

[tasoschatz]

Some time ago he had a hard time at g-d, then it was here, now he posts there again, maybe in other forums in between, I do not know. Always gives a lot of personal opinion about feeding, I never had the chance to read a post of his about lets say conditioning.
But ofcourse he doesn't hunt with dogs anymore ......

[evolutionkennels]

I've seen it all, I have a bitch that kept on getting skin irritations. I fed her the same thing I feed all of my dogs tgthe natures variety venison and lamb raw boost, she kept on getting skin irritations, changed to duck, lamb chicken, rabbit, bison... Nothing... Kept on getting skin irritations. The limited ingredients fish and sweet potato had the least irritations, but it still broke her out. Finally, deboned raw chicken, and she really broke out. I was just about to give up and put her down as a an antibacterial wash twice a week was getting on my nerves. My girlfriend said, maybe she's allergic to meat. I told her it was impossible, dogs evolved from wolves, wolves were hunters that ate meat. Anyway, I left to a wedding in the north Georgia mountains, she went to tbe pet store WITHOUT my permission and fed vegan Natural Balance dog food and I got back today and the coat is perfectly clean and the foul oder is gone! WTF??? Anyway, I've spent the last hour contemplating how this is possible. And voila... Could it possibly be that since victor aycart fed his dogs dried corn for the last 7 years that they evolved and adapted to it? I don't know.. But it's racking my brain.

[FrostyPaws]

Who knows? Not surprising that the dog would do good on that kind of diet. Dogs, like people, need protein, carbs, and fat to survive. I don't think it makes any difference where the protein comes from in the grand scheme of things, though I could be wrong.

[CRISIS]

dried corn?

[evolutionkennels]

Maize... Same thing they make corn tortillas from

[EWO]

I would think anything is possible. Long ago we had one that broke out in the mouth and lips and throat area every week or so. I would put him up in the brood box to get the collar off the area and it a day or so it would clear up. Back to the chain and again it would break out. Cleaned everything, sprayed everything, but it kept coming back. The only difference between the two living areas was there were stainless bowls in the brood box. He was allergic to the concrete bowls the best I can tell. Once he had stainless bowls on the chain the problem did not come back. So, and not being a doctor or vet, dogs, just like people, can be allergic to just about anything for whatever reason. Once it has been identified it does make life a little easier. EWO

[evolutionkennels]

It just goes against everything I've studied and experienced since 1988. I know some proteins cause allergic reactions, but i,I went through all of them. Rabbit, duck, beef, bison, fish, lamb, nothing, and I feed this vegan diet, and it cures the condition. Just baffled. But, at the end of the day, it kind of makes sense. In Ecuador, victor had no money, not even for dog food, some dogs starved, and the ones that made it survived on maize. Truly sad. However, given they were only fed that for so long, maybe a small adaptation occured, for survivals sake.

[CRISIS]

so he had a bunch of starving dogs? thats fucked up...

[evolutionkennels]

Unfortunately yes, sad

[tasoschatz]

Basically most anti allergenic kibble products usually contain no meat. For dogs and cats also. I have seen this kind of kible working for normal animals with normal ancestors and with stray animals also. Why it works, I have no idea. Also I do not think that 7 years of time would cause an adaptation to corn. Maybe in this 7 years survived only the dogs that could do so while on corn while the rest didn't but I call this selective surviving, not adaptation. The ones that could live just in maize did it, the rest didn't maybe lost during everyday living, maybe in the hunt.

[evolutionkennels]

The rest died of starvation, not hunt, not everyday ailments. It's a shame. I would give my dogs away before I let them starve.

[tasoschatz]

I just tried to write it in a polite way, lol.

[R2L]

Maybe he scammed so many people because he was trying to feed his dogs.

[evolutionkennels]

It's no excuse

[R2L]

Sarcasm

[evolutionkennels]

Nice

[blastfrompast]

well i guess iLL post it on this thread, Me and my new best friend High Sierra (a TFX bitch) went fishin on saturday and we had a great time everything was new to her and we brought her best friend sandy (a garner santos father daughter gyp) they played all day and ate raw fish as fast as i could catch them, caught enough fish to bring some home and feed it to my (silverback X little"D") brother and sister and also two other bitches from pit island and all you could hear was crunch crackle crunch and see tails awaggen they loved the raw fish! my question to the board is does anybody do this? is there any health reasons i should not do this? should i freeze the fish for a couple of days before i give it to them? any help apppreciated thanks blast

[CRISIS]

yeah you should freeze it

[Officially Retired]

well i guess iLL post it on this thread, Me and my new best friend High Sierra (a TFX bitch) went fishin on saturday and we had a great time everything was new to her and we brought her best friend sandy (a garner santos father daughter gyp) they played all day and ate raw fish as fast as i could catch them, caught enough fish to bring some home and feed it to my (silverback X little"D") brother and sister and also two other bitches from pit island and all you could hear was crunch crackle crunch and see tails awaggen they loved the raw fish! my question to the board is does anybody do this? is there any health reasons i should not do this? should i freeze the fish for a couple of days before i give it to them? any help apppreciated thanks blast

Yes, absolutely there is a reason you should NOT feed raw fish, and that is because it can contain a protozoa parasite that can and will kill your dogs if the fish is afflicted by it.

ALWAYS cook freshwater fish :exclamation:

Jack

[CRISIS]

cook? not just freeze?

[Officially Retired]

Good question.

I know in pork, certain trichinosis worms canNOT be killed by freezing, that is a fact I have researched, but I am not sure if this holds true with the protozoa that afflicts salmon. I can't remember the name of the protozoa, off the top of my head, but whether it is killed by freezing or not is a question that needs investigation.

I know this much for a fact: freezing CAN kill many parasites ... but does NOT kill all of them ... whereas cooking kills everything.

So don't just assume that freezing will work on every parasite, make sure you do your research. I just don't have the time to do it right now.

Jack

[CRISIS]

interesting, i heard the same about the trichnosis, but i thought everything else was taken care of b 2 weeks in the freezer... ill be sure to find out about the fish parasites

[Officially Retired]

The reason for the adaptation of trichinosis worms is because many of the animals they afflict (bear, boar, otter) live in freezing climates ... and these worms have evolved to live in greater than -40 degrees, for months like that when their host dies and lays there frozen ... and so a common freezer temperature is nothing to them.

Whether this factoid holds true for the protozoa that afflict salmon is another matter, but certainly the possibility is there.

Jack

[skipper]

Fish should be frozen for 3 weeks. No need to cook it after that.

[bently]

I am about to stat weaning my pups to a raw diet at 4 weeks. Though I don't think that they have enough teeth to start eating raw chicken. Rice, liver, gizards,ECT. Will all go Dow pretty easy but what do anyone recommend I do for the raw chicken?

[R2L]

if you can grind it that would be the best option imo

[LollipopGuild]

if you can grind it that would be the best option imo

I've heard of blockages happening with ground up bone. Something to keep in mind.

[R2L]

Its easier to digest/pass through so how would that create a blockage?
Dont add extra bone though, just grind whatever you wanted to give in whole.

[bently]

I was thinking the same about mabey grinding it, just curious if there was any better way

[LollipopGuild]

What's a good substitute for eggs if a dog is allergic to them? Feeding Jack's basic raw diet.