Deep game or game enough?

[LollipopGuild]

I've seen people say they will breed a ''dead'' game plug vs a destroyer that never has to go the distance. What are the opinions on this board? Do you go by the motto deep game or game enough?

I used to think gameness>all, until I realized he just has to be more game than the other one.

[ToTheDogs]

Anyone who takes a "game plug" over a total package bulldog is, for lack of better term, an idiot.

[bently]

I WANT A HARD MOUTH DOG WITH GOOD DEFENCE

[skipper]

Pretty hard to breed to a dead game dog unless u have him collected. females are just impossible. I go by game enough for my standards. But i rather say good enough for my standards.

[Officially Retired]

I've seen people say they will breed a ''dead'' game plug vs a destroyer that never has to go the distance. What are the opinions on this board? Do you go by the motto deep game or game enough?
I used to think gameness>all, until I realized he just has to be more game than the other one.


People always make these "totally polar opposite," extreme comparisons.

For me, I wouldn't breed to any dog (dead game or destroyer), unless I knew what was behind it :idea:

That said, I don't think anyone is an idiot for breeding to a (nearly) dead game dog, if it comes from high-percentages of this trait in the background.

Looking at it this way, if you want to talk about extremes, I would gladly breed to the game plug (from a litterful of great dogs) ... over the "destroyer" out of a litterful of curs :idea:

In other words, I would rather breed to the game plug Long's Werdo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2159) (all day, every day) ... while you couldn't pay me to breed to Roadblock's Gr Ch Joey (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7512) :idea:

From what I understand, every dog in Joey's litter quit, and his mama and daddy quit. So, yeah, Joey was a great "destroyer" individual animal, but the average of his line was a bunch of curs, and consequently Joey produced "mostly curs" on average ... whereas Werdo through badass dog after badass dog.

Idiocy in breeding would be the man who only looks at "individual dog ability" and doesn't pay attention to percentages and lineage to make sure he's not breeding to a fluke (either way) :idea:

Furthermore, when you're speaking of producing, sometimes ability doesn't matter even among littermates. Still remember a conversation between Pat Patrick and myself about Kincaid's Ch Princess and her sister Pretty Girl. Both were game dogs, yet Princess had the match ability while Pretty Girl was a plug ... yet, despite the same pedigree, and despite being bred to the same dogs, Patrick said, "(the plug) Pretty Girl could out-produce (the ace) Ch Princess any day of the week." So what does anyone have to say about that?

The reverse was true for me: I had the littermates Duke Nukem and Jezebel. Duke was a game plug; Jezebel was an A+ dog. Almost every dog Duke threw was game (but took forever to win), while every dog Jezebel threw whipped Duke's offspring when schooled together. So, in that case, breeding to the ace of the litter was the way to go, but the thing that made me love breeding to either one of them was they were out of an all-game litter. If every other dog in their litter quit, I wouldn't want to breed to either one of them.

MORAL: DEAL IN GAMENESS FIRST ... high percentages of it ... if you expect to breed BULLDOGS on a consistent basis ... and then worry about the proper mixes you need to employ to get you some ability.

That's my $0.02 :mrgreen:

Jack

[EWO]

Depends on whether your original goal is to match individual dogs or if the original goal is to breed good dogs, perpetuating a family/line and matching dogs from there. If all one is doing is trying to win matches then game enough is all one would need, as the individual dog is all that one would be concerned with. Granted, I would end up with a yard full winners, even more in the graveyard, and a very low percentage of successful dogs from these "individuals". But, my original goal of matching winning dogs would be a measured success.
On the other hand if my goal is to produce my own winning dogs then I have to look at everything. First in the individual for gameness, ability, talent, athleticism, mouth, desire, etc..etc.. Then to his littermates. Do they have these same traits? If not, I need to move on. If so, then move to the parents. If the traits are still there then this is a pretty good place to start. Then finding another within his/her family with the same traits (or better) and move forward with the breeding program.
If I were to lay out my goals in the beginning answering the question is rather simple. Sort of a 'short haul and long haul' mentality. EWO

[Officially Retired]

I agree, Ewo, if you're just matching dogs then all a dog has to be is a badass dog to do that.

However, the question was preferences in breeding, and many "inbred plugs" may be plugs, but they are inbred on badass dogs ... and so have a very real chance of producing them ... even more so than another badass dog.

So a person would have to know the story behind both dogs to make a decision. How a dog is bred matters to anyone who knows what he's doing.

Another example: I would rather breed to a game plug inbred on Gr Ch Art, using Art over a game daughter of his, than I would breed to Art's scatter-bred ace descendent Gr Ch Joey, who came from a litterful of curs.

Etc., etc.

[LollipopGuild]

Pretty hard to breed to a dead game dog unless u have him collected. females are just impossible. I go by game enough for my standards. But i rather say good enough for my standards.

That's why I said ''dead'' game. But, I agree. I want something game enough, or good enough, by my standards. If a dog is deeply game with the ability behind it, more power to him.


People always make these "totally polar opposite," extreme comparisons.

For me, I wouldn't breed to any dog (dead game or destroyer), unless I knew what was behind it :idea:

That said, I don't think anyone is an idiot for breeding to a (nearly) dead game dog, if it comes from high-percentages of this trait in the background.

Looking at it this way, if you want to talk about extremes, I would gladly breed to the game plug (from a litterful of great dogs) ... over the "destroyer" out of a litterful of curs :idea:

In other words, I would rather breed to the game plug Long's Werdo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2159) (all day, every day) ... while you couldn't pay me to breed to Roadblock's Gr Ch Joey (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7512) :idea:

From what I understand, every dog in Joey's litter quit, and his mama and daddy quit. So, yeah, Joey was a great "destroyer" individual animal, but the average of his line was a bunch of curs, and consequently Joey produced "mostly curs" on average ... whereas Werdo through badass dog after badass dog.

Idiocy in breeding would be the man who only looks at "individual dog ability" and doesn't pay attention to percentages and lineage to make sure he's not breeding to a fluke (either way) :idea:

Furthermore, when you're speaking of producing, sometimes ability doesn't matter even among littermates. Still remember a conversation between Pat Patrick and myself about Kincaid's Ch Princess and her sister Pretty Girl. Both were game dogs, yet Princess had the match ability while Pretty Girl was a plug ... yet, despite the same pedigree, and despite being bred to the same dogs, Patrick said, "(the plug) Pretty Girl could out-produce (the ace) Ch Princess any day of the week." So what does anyone have to say about that?

The reverse was true for me: I had the littermates Duke Nukem and Jezebel. Duke was a game plug; Jezebel was an A+ dog. Almost every dog Duke threw was game (but took forever to win), while every dog Jezebel threw whipped Duke's offspring when schooled together. So, in that case, breeding to the ace of the litter was the way to go, but the thing that made me love breeding to either one of them was they were out of an all-game litter. If every other dog in their litter quit, I wouldn't want to breed to either one of them.

MORAL: DEAL IN GAMENESS FIRST ... high percentages of it ... if you expect to breed BULLDOGS on a consistent basis ... and then worry about the proper mixes you need to employ to get you some ability.

That's my $0.02 :mrgreen:

Jack

Of course people use extremes when comparing; it's a way to show a preference and make a point. On the subject of litter percentages, I should have clarified. I would rather have a higher percentage of quality match dogs that may or may not be deeply game than a litter full of deeply game hounds, but lack ability. I'm not saying I won't look at the total package of the dog and base a breeding off that. If I had a choice between breeding to a destroyer from a litter full of curs or a game plug, I'm not going to breed.

[Officially Retired]

Of course people use extremes when comparing; it's a way to show a preference and make a point. On the subject of litter percentages, I should have clarified. I would rather have a higher percentage of quality match dogs that may or may not be deeply game than a litter full of deeply game hounds, but lack ability.

Well, that is what breeding is all about: selection.

My own view would be just the opposite, and my dogs have enjoyed a 20+ year career stopping other people's dogs ... well past the 1-2+ hour mark ... nearly 9x out of 10, precisely because this is the philosophy of most people.

I remember when I sold Vise-Grip's Igor (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9822) to a fellow in New England. The guy rolled Igor out hard a couple of times, and stopped a couple "match prospects" with him, but he got rid of Igor because (he said) the dog "had no ability."

Well, the new guy who got Igor said he was going to really game-test Igor against an exceptionally-talented dog ... but when the smoke cleared Igor stopped this dog too in about :45. Igor was such a durable animal, and so deeply game, that these so-called "match dogs" just couldn't break him down like they could lighter-boned dogs of other bloodlines. So what does this genius do? He puts Igor uphill 16 lbs ... "to prove he'll quit" ... and this great big dog he used really did just slaughter poor Igor for about :35 ... just broke him up all to pieces because of his size advantage ... but by about the :40 min mark this big dog got tired and started to turn from the down Igor ... yet Igor (though he was dying) was still screaming with rage trying to get to this big POS ... and so the guy finally stopped it because there was just no way Igor was going to quit.

Well, the genius couldn't save the game Igor either (some people can't do anything right) and so the extremely game tough Igor lost his life to another idiot. The point here is if these two bozos would have just matched Igor (instead of trying to "game test him" and break his spirit FOUR TIMES) the dog could have been a 3-4xW ... as (even though Igor wasn't a very good athlete) he *did* have *two* tremendous assets: extreme gameness and extreme durability. These traits, to me, are worth more than absolutely anything as they are what define the breed :idea:

Another story, Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526) had a very game sister named O.G. Posse's Volcha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7533). Now, Zukill was a true ace finishing dog. He won 6x in a row, in times between :19 and :48, and he did so without a cutter in his head. He was so strong he manhandled everything, and he favored kill spots (throat/kidney) and bit hard enough so that the pressure alone would DOA the opponent.

Well, his sister Volcha was just a plug IMO (seen the whole litter on a video OGP sent to me). Yet Volcha was matched into ProSet Kennels (who, at the time, had never lost a match). They were using one of them-thar "high ability" dogs (a daughter of Ch Bozak (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4850)), and this bitch proceeded to whip the daylights out of Volcha ... for 30 min, 40 min, an hour, 1:30 ... but she could NOT kill the game, tough Volcha ... where other dogs would die to this Bozack bitch, Volcha was too game, and too tough, to just lay down and die ... and so by 1:45 Volcha pulled even with the Bozack bitch ... and by 2:15 she was on a down dog finishing her ;)

So, here again, if you want to be satisfied with ordinary gameness, you'll have lots of people agreeing with you on that point. But my dogs have stopped WAY too many pretenders like this over the years for me to ever be satisfied with anything less than absolute gameness as a benchmark. Sure, I would rather have Zukill than Volcha. But I would breed to Volcha every time she came in heat, for the rest of her life, and never want to breed to the "high ability" ("pretty game") daughter of Bozack who ultimately laid down to Volcha after being ahead for 1:30 ...

Again, it is all about selection.




If I had a choice between breeding to a destroyer from a litter full of curs or a game plug, I'm not going to breed.

Well, I respectfully disagree with that posture.

Again, I personally would be glad to breed to a super-game plug, out of a litterful of excellent dogs, any day of the week.

Cheers,

Jack

[EWO]

Good post. Lots of good dogs are over looked, wasted or ruined in search of the ace, or the sure thing. EWO





Well, that is what breeding is all about: selection.

My own view would be just the opposite, and my dogs have enjoyed a 20+ year career stopping other people's dogs ... well past the 1-2+ hour mark ... nearly 9x out of 10, precisely because this is the philosophy of most people.

I remember when I sold Vise-Grip's Igor (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9822) to a fellow in New England. The guy rolled Igor out hard a couple of times, and stopped a couple "match prospects" with him, but he got rid of Igor because (he said) the dog "had no ability."

Well, the new guy who got Igor said he was going to really game-test Igor against an exceptionally-talented dog ... but when the smoke cleared Igor stopped this dog too in about :45. Igor was such a durable animal, and so deeply game, that these so-called "match dogs" just couldn't break him down like they could lighter-boned dogs of other bloodlines. So what does this genius do? He puts Igor uphill 16 lbs ... "to prove he'll quit" ... and this great big dog he used really did just slaughter poor Igor for about :35 ... just broke him up all to pieces because of his size advantage ... but by about the :40 min mark this big dog got tired and started to turn from the down Igor ... yet Igor (though he was dying) was still screaming with rage trying to get to this big POS ... and so the guy finally stopped it because there was just no way Igor was going to quit.

Well, the genius couldn't save the game Igor either (some people can't do anything right) and so this game tough bulldog lost his life to another idiot. The point here is if these two bozos would have just matched Igor (instead of trying to "game test him" and break his spirit FOUR TIMES) the dog could have been a 3-4xW ... as (even though Igor wasn't a very good athlete) he *did* have *two* tremendous assets: extreme gameness and extreme durability. These traits, to me, are worth more than absolutely anything as they are what define the breed :idea:

Another story, Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526) had a very game sister named O.G. Posse's Volcha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7533). Now, Zukill was a true ace finishing dog. He won 6x in a row, in times between :19 and :48, and he did so without a cutter in his head. He was so strong he manhandled everything, and he favored kill spots (throat/kidney) and bit hard enough so that the pressure alone would DOA the opponent.

Well, his sister Volcha was just a plug IMO (seen the whole litter on a video OGP sent to me). Yet Volcha was matched into ProSet Kennels (who, at the time, had never lost a match). They were using one of them-thar "high ability" dogs (a daughter of Ch Bozak (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4850)), and this bitch proceeded to whip the daylights out of Volcha ... for 30 min, 40 min, an hour, 1:30 ... but she could NOT kill the game, tough Volcha ... where other dogs would die to this Bozack bitch, Volcha was too game, and too tough, to just lay down and die ... and so by 1:45 Volcha pulled even with the Bozack bitch ... and by 2:15 she was on a down dog finishing her ;)

So, here again, if you want to be satisfied with ordinary gameness, you'll have lots of people agreeing with you on that point. But my dogs have stopped WAY too many pretenders like this over the years for me to ever be satisfied with anything less than absolute gameness as a benchmark. Sure, I would rather have Zukill than Volcha. But I would breed to Volcha every time she came in heat, for the rest of her life, and never want to breed to "the high ability" daughter of Bozack who laid down to her after being ahead for 1:30 ...

Again, it is all about selection.





Well, I respectfully disagree with that posture.

Again, I personally would be glad to breed to a super-game plug, out of a litterful of excellent dogs, any day of the week.

Cheers,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Good post. Lots of good dogs are over looked, wasted or ruined in search of the ace, or the sure thing. EWO

Thanks, and I agree.

In our modern day, right-click, fast-paced society ... there seems to be no appreciation for good old-fashioned determination and heart anymore :idea:

Everybody likes to "get in and out of there" ... but, to me, a calm, steady, determined animal who will not be denied is a thing of beauty to watch :D

[EWO]

I think the calm, steady, determined animal is a beautiful thing as well. I also think it can answer questions as well. The dog that blasts thru the world with ease leaves several unanswered questions, such as, Is he game? or, Was he actually paired with competition? or, Is he really that good? EWO

[LollipopGuild]

This is the great thing about it, there really is no wrong answer. It's ideas vs ideas. My way vs your way. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, I think the same can be said for a steady, determined animal. Maybe it takes them a long time to win, but it also doesn't guarantee if the dog is game or not. If he's able to take a long time and not withstand much, if any damage, then you still have a calm, determined animal that hasn't shown any gameness. It just takes him longer to do the same thing as the destroyer, which is win without being hurt.

I like dogs that win fast; I like dogs that win long. Hell, I like dogs that win, within my own parameters, of course. :)

[Black Hand]

breed to whichever has the traits hardest to obtain and retain.

[waccamaw]

A dog will fool you ,he may appear to be dead game today and a cur tomorrow .when breeding a game dog or a total package dog check back at least 3 generations prefer 4 generations back the further back they better .everybody needs to be great dogs .it is all about stacking your gene pool.

[Eliman]

I have seen some good posts fellas but i stick by the average winners and they are just game enough but my view of breeding is based around the effort for a all around hound.

RoughNeck

[n.d.k]

My opinion , there is three levels of game ness pit game, deep game and dead game all hounds are not deep game that doesn't mean they can't win some have high ability and don't need to be deep game just pit game to do his job punching bags need to be deep game or lower ability hounds

[grindhard]

If a hog kills anther hog would anyone consider that a form of gameness

[R2L]

If a hog kills anther hog would anyone consider that a form of gameness

i dont think anyone would call that gameness

[n.d.k]

Pit game, deep game or dead game all u need to be is pit game if u have skill if u have no skill u better be deep game most shows don't last but 45 min so most dogs are just pit game they will go as long as they not getting the ruff end or tired a cur will go a while as long as he doesn't get tired or get serious pressure put on