All dogs descendants of wolves???

[Wise]

Just seen that Blue commercial so I thought I'd thread this. I don't think it's true though.

[Black Hand]

Just seen that Blue commercial so I thought I'd thread this. I don't think it's true though.

that's what they say. Scientist even get more specific and say they are all particularly descendants of the grey wolf. I don't know enough on the subject to argue against the science of it all.

[evolutionkennels]

Yes... From the great dane, to the chihuahua. All dogs are direct descendents of wolves, and they can breed with wolves with no problem. If you want a good read as to the process of evolution from plants to bacteria to viruses to dogs. Read Dawkins book, "the greatest show on earth."

[Black Hand]

Yeah I believe dogs and wolves are same species technically. but can they breed with other canis such as fox and jackals and are they also same species?

[DVN]

Yeah I believe dogs and wolves are same species technically. but can they breed with other canis such as fox and jackals and are they also same species?

Coyotes and dogs have been none to breed naturally without man intervention, hence the term "Coy dog". Most wolf dog hybrids are the result of someone breeding a wolf to a dog.

[tasoschatz]

On top of that, I think I recall reading somewhere, that dogs have a somewhat special gene that allows them to develop and establish characteristics at a fast rate, that is why within 100 years we have multiple times the number of dog breeds that we used to have. So, no wonder that all these different looking and acting types of dogs come from wolves. Also, I think I mentioned it here before, about domesticated foxes that within 20 years they developed attitudes, colors and other characteristics similar to dogs, so this gene thing must hold some truth into it.

[Chase1]

What about greyhounds and salukis. There are no wolves in Africa.

[swampdawg]

Coyotes and dogs have been none to breed naturally without man intervention, hence the term "Coy dog". Most wolf dog hybrids are the result of someone breeding a wolf to a dog.

Wow I guess this explains all the brindle yotes I got around here.Just kidding,but we do see solid black yotes.I think they call them coydogs around here too,we call them target practice.

[waccamaw]

At one time I thought they were.but now I don't think so simpl because every culture in the world has had dogs from the beginning of time .and hybrid dog x wolf can't reproduce so they say ,just like a mule horse donkey cross they can breed but can't reproduce ..lion x tiger = liger .the liger can't reproduce .i do think the wolf ,dog ,coyote ,fox are all related .but yet maybe the dog came from the wild dogs of Africa .

[Team BAD]

When I got my wolf, it was a cub from a den in the mountains of NC. No hybrid, but one of the best animals I ever had the pleasure to own. Feeding time was somewhat different however. Once given the meal, anyone had to exit the pen until it was over!

[Wise]

It would be kinda hard to argue with science but it does depend on "who's" study/info we're talking about too. With that said I'd lean more towards them being descendants of wild dogs. ......but then again wild dogs resemble wolves...

[waccamaw]

What kinda wolf would that be

[waccamaw]

I can look at the tracks on the ground and tell the diff.of a coyote and dog.i wonder what the African wild dog track looks
Like .all the indian tribes had dogs .

[LEFTLANE]

Wolf hybrids can repoduce. And mules every now and agian aren't sterile. And to the Africa dog comment, im pretty sure the Egyptians hyrogplics had dogs.... dogs been in Africa for many many years.

[Black Hand]

Dogs have been around since before recorded history. The Chauvet caves of France have 26,000 year old foot prints of a small boy and his dog. Was it a wolve? Doubt an 8 year old child is roaming caves with one large wolf. If there were dogs in France 30,000 yrs ago I'm sure they were everywhere.

[waccamaw]

That is what I was saying .and it is rare that a wolf dog hybrid can reproduce or a mule.

[waccamaw]

Just looked up the wolf dog ,most I read said they can reproduce .

[evolutionkennels]

All dogs descend from wolves. Period. For anyone to say different showcases their ignorance. Dna proves it.. Run a chihuahua and a wolf and compare.

[CrazyRed]

I'm sure Wolf Hybrids can produce, isnt that what the Sled Dog races? I know one guy who does, actually had some great conversations with him about nutrition and conditioning and he amazed me with the intellect and the extents they go when its about what they feed their working dogs how they cull and how they work them.

[AmericanDogMan]

All dogs descend from wolves. Period. For anyone to say different showcases their ignorance. Dna proves it.. Run a chihuahua and a wolf and compare.

Wolf is a different breed of dog

Just like tigers don't live in Africa and lions don't live in Asia

Tigers and lions are just a different breed of the same animal

Ligers can reproduce and evolution is bullcrap8):appl:

[waccamaw]

I looked it up ligers can rarely reproduce and only the females ,the males are always sterol.

[waccamaw]

The fox is in the canine family and can not mate with wolves ,dogs ,or coyotes.gestation cycle is dif.and I looked up more on the wolf dog cross a lot are not able to reproduce ,I think it depends on who does the research .

[waccamaw]

Wolves, Wolf-Dogs & Phenotypes


Wolf, Siberian Husky, & Alaskan Malamute
-- Three separate animals

Malamutes, Siberians, Wolves, & Wolf-Dogs

This page was written with help from employees and researchers at Wolf Park and Bays Mountain Park and members of many lists, including WolfDogList, Malamute-L, Sibernet-L, and Sleddog-L. All mistakes are mine.

Purebred Alaskan Malamutes and Siberian Huskies are not wolves, or part-wolves, were not bred from wolves, and these breeds were not developed by breeding to wolves anytime recently (that is a separate animal called a wolf-dog). Based on studies by Dr. Robert Wayne at UC Berkeley, sled dogs are no more closely related to wolves than Chihuahuas. There is very little genetic difference between any dog and any wolf, coyote, or jackal, etc., so little, in fact, that genetic tests cannot tell how much wolf is in deliberately bred wolf-dogs. The domesticated canines and their wild cousins CAN interbreed. However, pedigrees on Malamutes and Siberians are available back ~20 generations (to the early 1930s at least) and these dogs are not wolf crosses -- Malamutes are Malamutes, Siberians are Siberians.

But they look like Wolves, or Phenotype

The definition of Phenotype is "the genetically and environmentally determined physical appearance of an organism." In other words, (the parents and) the conditions create the appearance.

[CYJ]

Back when I had a lot of older books on our breed of dogs. After reading a lot of these books. I do not think they came from wolves. I am not totally sold on our breed being a bulldog x terrier cross either. I feel like our breed of dogs are a ancient breed of dog probably as old as the Blood hound/Greyhound/ and Mastiff/etc.

In Roman times and on into the 16th century they were called a Ban dog or dogge. There are pictures of these dogs used along with hunting packs of hounds. They look like our dogs of today and also the hounds as well. If you breed this breed of dogs we have up in a large catch weight dog size. They get more say Italian Mastiff looking. In the smaller sizes take on a more bull terrier look, which is more preferred for the ancient sport of dog fighting and ratting/badger events.

Years back Ralph Greenwood introduced the breeder and pictures of the American Bulldog. The original breeder of these dogs claimed they were the actual true English Bulldog from Ole England/France/Spain. Were brought over from England by his ancestors into Georgia for work, varmint, and personal protection dogs. His original dogs looked much better than most of them today. Since show dog people types have took control of most of the future breeding stock.

From some of the older books I have read. Many old time breeders believed Black was not a Bull Dog color. Believe it was Howard Heinzl that made that statement in a article he had wrote. I called the original breeder of those American Bulldogs and asked him if he ever got a solid black dog. He told me at that time he had never had a solid black dog or bitch in any of his litters. Came mostly in colors of white/mixed colors like our Colby dogs etc. or Brindle colors.

One way to find out today about the ole Bulldog x Terrier cross. Is to breed say a Black and Tan terrier or one of the best of the Terrier male groups of Terriers to a bitch American Bulldog. See what type looking dog shows up. The American Bulldog bred to a A.P.B.T. to date has only produced a neat looking Bully Bulldog type dog for a pet. Like the old Country bulldogs we had in the south on local farms. Crosses of Pit Bulls with English Bulldog or Boxer Bulls.

Just some thoughts to ponder IMHO. Then again maybe all dogs came from African wild dogs. Some of those brindle long eared Lightner dogs favored them. LOL

[Officially Retired]

The fox is in the canine family and can not mate with wolves ,dogs ,or coyotes.gestation cycle is dif.and I looked up more on the wolf dog cross a lot are not able to reproduce ,I think it depends on who does the research .


That is a good point. Foxes, Coyotes, Jackals, Lycaons, Dingos, etc. are all naturally-occurring canines that are not wolves. True, some (such as dingos and coyotes) are thought to have evolved from wolves, but even the modern wolf isn't the same as the prehistoric dire wolf, etc. :idea:

Yet others, like the fox and lycaon, are simply different ... and, taxonomically, they are listed in a lineage distinct from wolves, domestic dogs, and coyotes.

Conceptually, even without the taxonomic verification above, I personally would find it hard to believe that all dogs trace back to one species, same as I would find it hard to believe that all birds (insects, reptiles, etc.) trace back to one species as well. This world and its life forms are too big for that.

Regarding the subject of domestication, people all over the world have been trying to domesticate whatever wild animals (dog, birds, goats, etc.) exist in whatever various geographic locales they live in.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Coyotes and jackals are a different species all together. For your reading pleasure.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/18/wolf-to-dog-transition-had-little-to-do-with-humans-ancient-skull-suggests

[DVN]

Coyotes and jackals are a different species all together. For your reading pleasure.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/18/wolf-to-dog-transition-had-little-to-do-with-humans-ancient-skull-suggests

Since you bring up coyote lets not forget the red wolf. The red wolf is indigenes to south eastern US. Some say the red wolf is the only wolf species that evolved in north America while others say it is nothing more than a wolf-coyote hybrid. Looking at some pics, to me it looks like a wolf-coyote hybrid.

[evolutionkennels]

In the story of how the*dog*came in from the cold and onto our sofas, we tend to give ourselves a little too much credit. The most common assumption is that some hunter-gatherer with a soft spot for cuteness found some wolf puppies and adopted them. Over time, these tamed*wolves*would have shown their prowess at hunting, so humans kept them around the campfire until they evolved into dogs. (See "How to Build a Dog.")But when we look back at our relationship with wolves throughout history, this doesn't really make sense. For one thing, the wolf was domesticated at a time when modern humans were not very tolerant of carnivorous competitors. In fact, after modern humans arrived in Europe around 43,000 years ago, they pretty much wiped out every large carnivore that existed, including*saber-toothed cats*and*giant hyenas. The fossil record doesn't reveal whether these large carnivores starved to death because modern humans took most of the meat or whether humans picked them off on purpose. Either way,*most of the Ice Age bestiary went extinct.The hunting hypothesis, that humans used wolves to hunt, doesn't hold up either. Humans were already successful hunters without wolves, more successful than every other large carnivore. Wolves eat a lot of meat, as much as one deer per ten wolves every day—a lot for humans to feed or compete against. And anyone who has seen wolves in a feeding frenzy knows that wolves don't like to share.Humans have a long history of eradicating wolves, rather than trying to adopt them. Over the last few centuries, almost every culture has hunted wolves to extinction. The first written record of the wolf's persecution was in the sixth century B.C. whenSolon of Athens*offered a bounty for every wolf killed. The last wolf was killed in England in the 16th century under the order of*Henry VII. In Scotland, the forested landscape made wolves more difficult to kill. In response, the Scots burned the forests. North American wolves were not much better off. By 1930, there was not a wolf left in the 48 contiguous states of America. *(See "Wolf Wars.")If this is a snapshot of our behavior toward wolves over the centuries, it presents one of the most perplexing problems: How was this misunderstood creature tolerated by humans long enough to evolve into the domestic dog?The short version is that we often think of evolution as being the survival of the fittest, where the strong and the dominant survive and the soft and weak perish. But essentially, far from the survival of the leanest and meanest, the success of dogs comes down to survival of the friendliest. (See "People and Dogs: A Genetic Love Story.")Most likely, it was wolves that approached us, not the other way around, probably while they were scavenging around garbage dumps on the edge of human settlements. The wolves that were bold but aggressive would have been killed by humans, and so only the ones that were bold and friendly would have been tolerated.Friendliness caused strange things to happen in the wolves. They started to look different. Domestication gave them splotchy coats, floppy ears, wagging tails. In only several generations, these friendly wolves would have become very distinctive from their more aggressive relatives. But the changes did not just affect their looks. Changes also happened to their psychology. These protodogs evolved the ability to read human gestures.As dog owners, we take for granted that we can point to a ball or toy and our dog will bound off to get it. But the ability of dogs to read human gestures is remarkable. Even our closest relatives—chimpanzees and bonobos—can't read our gestures as readily as dogs can. Dogs are remarkably similar to human infants in the way they pay attention to us. This ability accounts for the extraordinary communication we have with our dogs. Some dogs are so attuned to their owners that they can read a gesture as subtle as a change in eye direction.With this new ability, these protodogs were worth knowing. People who had dogs during a hunt would likely have had an advantage over those who didn't. Even today, tribes in Nicaragua depend on dogs to detect prey. Moose hunters in alpine regions bring home 56 percent more prey when they are accompanied by dogs. In the Congo, hunters believe they would starve without their dogs.Dogs would also have served as a warning system, barking at hostile strangers from neighboring tribes. They could have defended their humans from predators.And finally, though this is not a pleasant thought, when times were tough, dogs could have served as an emergency food supply. Thousands of years before refrigeration and with no crops to store, hunter-gatherers had no food reserves until the domestication of dogs. In tough times, dogs that were the least efficient hunters might have been sacrificed to save the group or the best hunting dogs. Once humans realized the usefulness of keeping dogs as an emergency food supply, it was not a huge jump to realize plants could be used in a similar way.So, far from a benign human adopting a wolf puppy, it is more likely that a population of wolves adopted us. As the advantages of dog ownership became clear, we were as strongly affected by our relationship with them as they have been by their relationship with us. Dogs may even have been the catalyst for our civilization.

[Officially Retired]

Punctuation & paragraphs please ...

[Officially Retired]

BTW, I am about to pick some of these theoretical musings apart ...

[Officially Retired]

Coyotes and jackals are a different species all together. For your reading pleasure.
http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/news/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2011/12/18/wolf-to-dog-transition-had-little-to-do-with-humans-ancient-skull-suggests


Real quick, since I am working on a couple of different things at the moment, the first thing that must be understood in reading these pieces is that ALL of these posits are nothing but theories; they're not facts.

Second, since these theories and hypotheses aren't facts, this means there isn't agreement anywhere, even among scientists: ("The team’s research has added important new information to a lively debate among scientists over where, when and how dogs evolved from wolves.") ... as "lively debates" among scientists MEANS disagreement :idea:

Thus, essentially, we're choosing what we believe ...

Thirdly, regarding my own beliefs, on the link you posted (post #26), aside from the quote I put up above, there is this quote: “Some researchers have presented genetic evidence suggesting all dog lineages emerged following a particular domestication event in ancient China, though other studies point to dog origins in the Middle East. Crockford said that from the Siberian case and other examples of partial domestication 'it seems pretty clear that if it can get started and stop that it could have happened in any number of places at different times around the world,'” which is my own view, namely that emerging peoples all over the world domesticated whatever dogs they had access to.

IMO, some of these scientists need to stop measuring skulls and actually think for a minute. The idea that men didn't capture and domesticate dogs and perform selective breeding is ludicrous. We have been capturing, using, and modifying animals almost since we could walk upright. For some theorist to suggest that animals evolved around us is preposterous. Does anyone really think the chihuahua came from its own selective process? Or the snub-nosed bulldog? These animals are freaks and abomonations of nature that could never survive on their own. We created them.

Going back in time to pre-history, sure, there is some truth that smarter dogs (like coyotes and wolves) learned to scavenge off of us ... but, by God, we were already hoarding cattle and chickens, were we not? Does anyone think that we didn't capture wolves and coyotes too? (And whatever else we could capture?)

Just as we tamed horses, so to did we tame dogs, so some woman measuring skulls isn't going to convince me that we humans didn't breed these dogs too (for our own specifications) in exactly the same way we've bred horses, pigs, goats, chickens, cattle, etc., etc.

And since there is no agreement among scientists, and since the traditional view is in alignment with my own, I absolutely choose to believe the basic, common horse sense that WE domesticated the dog in exactly the same fashion we've domesticated so many other animals ... and that to believe that all these animals "came to us" and evolved around us (like we're too clueless to have anything to do with it by coming to them) is borderline retarded.

Jack

[waccamaw]

The red wolf was native sc ,we had a few left .then the game biologist started trapping red wolves in Texas I think some had bred with coyotes ,they kept running test to get the purest red wolf to put on Bull island ,sc ?there they had several breeding pairs .

[CYJ]

Book of James Chapter 3 verse 7 says; For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed and has been tamed of mankind.

Ecclesiastes Chapter 1 verses 8-11 says; All things are full of labor; man cannot utter it: the eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing. The thing that has been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. Is there anything whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it has been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.

By the time era at the Tower of Babel. I would think there were many types of animals being used for food, work, hunting, protection, and even for pets etc. From this dispersion of the known peoples of that ancient time; by God's confusion of the one language to many languages,(Genesis 11: Verses 6-7). The first 70 Nations were formed as these tribal groups moved across the land and resettled in various regions of the earth.

With them I feel they already had various types of dog breeds along with many other work, food type beasts etc. Through selective breeding; for what ever needed use of their dogs were. Certain foundation types of dogs over time became established. Like Scent hounds, Coursing Hounds, Mastiff types, Terrier types, and so on.

So I think all dogs come from some sort of dog type beasts that existed before the Great World Wide Flood and was preserved on the Ark. The Wolf, Fox type beasts was on that Ark as well. The dogs were dogs, wolves were wolves, foxes were foxes, lions were lions and Tigers were Tigers and so on.

Some may think we are the smartest races of Mankind today and have greater Technology than any peoples of past History. But we just got off the Horse to riding a automobile etc. say 100 to 75 years ago. Daniel the Prophet said only in the last days of man kind would knowledge be greatly increased. Today some say it is doubling every six months. You may also note that the language barrier has been greatly broken down. That is my thoughts and I am sticking to it. LOL

[BlackHeartWarrior]

that all comes back to the fact that they say dog is from the wolf family. But todays studies suggests that dogs are more like pigs then wolfs genetically.

[Black Hand]

that all comes back to the fact that they say dog is from the wolf family. But todays studies suggests that dogs are more like pigs then wolfs genetically.

what study is this, cuz dogs are like 99.9% genetically the same as a wolf.

[DLDTommy]

When I got my wolf, it was a cub from a den in the mountains of NC. No hybrid, but one of the best animals I ever had the pleasure to own. Feeding time was somewhat different however. Once given the meal, anyone had to exit the pen until it was over!
Had a buddy do some similar stuff, bad ass animal for sure and very different in terms of communication too. He also trapped a coyote and backed it up to one of his GSD's. Only got one pup but that little dog grew up to be one bad SOB as well. I guess what I'm sayin is that [nature] is fun to experiment with.

[evolutionkennels]

that all comes back to the fact that they say dog is from the wolf family. But todays studies suggests that dogs are more like pigs then wolfs genetically.


Compare dna of dog with a wolf. Then do the same with a dog and a pig....


Drumroll....... Wolf!

[Black Hand]

yeah im searching and do not see anything that relates dogs to pigs lol

[ToTheDogs]

Here's the thing.... If you run a wolf's dna and pitbull's dna, you're correct Evo, they WILL look the same BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH DOGS! If you run your DNA and my DNA, will it not state, "THEY ARE BOTH HUMAN." ???? I'm sure it would. And when they compared DNA from Dog Breeds to Wolves.. "DNA was extracted and genetic distance for mitochondrial DNA was estimated between individuals".. So, estimating works as SCIENTIFIC FACT now?!


The paragraphs you posted and the link that you posted are ONLY theories. There is ZERO proof to their argument.

"We think the skull isn't that of a domesticated dog, because it had big teeth"

HOW STUPID DOES THAT SOUND? You think with the amount of money they are being donated to do this research they would've come to a better conclusion that that.

[Officially Retired]

For that matter, I believe we humans are at least 96-99% genetically the same as Chimpanzees ... so "a lot must happen in that 1-4% difference" :lol:

At least with some people :rotflmao:

[evolutionkennels]

Here's the thing.... If you run a wolf's dna and pitbull's dna, you're correct Evo, they WILL look the same BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH DOGS! If you run your DNA and my DNA, will it not state, "THEY ARE BOTH HUMAN." ???? I'm sure it would. And when they compared DNA from Dog Breeds to Wolves.. "DNA was extracted and genetic distance for mitochondrial DNA was estimated between individuals".. So, estimating works as SCIENTIFIC FACT now?!


The paragraphs you posted and the link that you posted are ONLY theories. There is ZERO proof to their argument.

"We think the skull isn't that of a domesticated dog, because it had big teeth"

HOW STUPID DOES THAT SOUND? You think with the amount of money they are being donated to do this research they would've come to a better conclusion that that.

If they are both dogs, then there is no argument

[ToTheDogs]

A Pitbull is no more related to a wolf than you're related to me.

[evolutionkennels]

For that matter, I believe we humans are at least 96-99% genetically the same as Chimpanzees ... so "a lot must happen in that 1-4% difference" :lol:

At least with some people :rotflmao:

Yes, we share a common ancestor. Furthermore, all of us humans have about 2% neanderthal blood.... EXCEPT for Africans. Those of us that migrated couldn't help ourselves and had to have some hairy neanderthal puntang as we migrated out of Africa and ran into our other species hominids from a common ancestor. Furthermore, another sparse population in the Tibet area has about 1% davonian dna... Yes, an all together different species of humanoid with whom we also share a common ancestor. It is with great caution and doubt that I would say that a pig is closer to a dog than dog is to a wolf. Breed a horny dog to a pig in heat... No offspring. Breed a dog to a wolf and voila.... A hybrid. Same can be said with neanderthal and human.

[waccamaw]

Sounds logical to me .

[BlackHeartWarrior]

:rotflmao::waahh::rotflmao: I Just wanted to see if any one was gullible enough to read the first ridiculous thing what came to my mind hahaha. Dogs definitely either come from the african wild dog or wolf. Hard to say. hyena is more closely related to The big cat family so no connection there. If you looking for answers head to indian. There are still dogs there what seem to be transitioning from wild animals to domesticated dogs. they resemble that of the african wild dog.
I live in africa my friends. seen all these animals and i have never seen wild wolves behave anything like a canine But a african wild dog. No doubt they cut from the same cloth.

[BlackHeartWarrior]

Dingo, Canaan Dog, Basanji, Indian Paria Dog, Koi Dog, Sicha Dog, I-Twina Dog, I-NJA Isintu Dog, Carolina Dog. These are a few of the primitive dogs found in the world. Most of them are found in africa. I think its safe to say that dogs came from africa and my own personal opinion they are not descendants of the wolf. Rather they evolved from the african dogs after the continental shift