Tosa inu vs gamedogs

[will888]

Hi!

I love pitbull ADBA , for me it's the best!

But i was told that the Tosa inu is able to fight and win over Gamedogs ...

Also the catchweight ...

In 90 these dogs were won in few minutes by a Gamedog

But now the story is changed... In Corea, Japan Romany there are kennel opened

To all challenge ...

This is not a provocation!!! Listen me, i only want to know the truth...

I know gr ch Tito an apbt won over Tano a Tosa Inu...

But one is not enought .

So what do you know about this ?

Gameness is ok, but if the Other big Tosa kills the opponent in 10 or 20 minutes... What is it worth for?

Tell me your experience if you have some.

Thanks to all

[waccamaw]

Then why do the Japanese buy apbt?

[will888]

Because they are cheaper to feed... A 20 kg pitbull doesn't eat like a 70 kg tosa...

You can have 3 times more dogs at the same times and so you can bet 3 times than a Tosa kennel...

These are only simple argouments...

Then a pitbull show is much longer... look at 16 kg match...

Different at 30 kg match... They work for less time and give themselfes more damages...

I want only know the truth...

[skipper]

The apbt is far superior every other breed when it comes to dogfighting. If there were a better breed it would be used. No rules without exceptions, but in general nothing compares to the bulldogs.

[EWO]

If left down and two dogs are really laying the pipe the three time bigger dog should prevail. Since every dog has a right to quit, and should be given ample opportunity to do so, if it becomes a scratching contest, the game bulldog knocks on victory's door 99.9% of the time. Really simple. EWO

[waccamaw]

The bigger should win ,but a tosa is not a bulldog ,just like a bigger german Shepard should beat a 30 lb pit ,but they can't.a well bred pit bull has the hardest bite of any dog
.and I know of some jap kennels breeding pits to tosa's to improve the tosa.

[will888]

Breeding pit to tosa is for hybrid vigor.
The hardest bite is of dog like Bandog 50 mastiff and 50 pitbull, Tosa, bullykutta.
Pitbull at 30 kg can be compared yes... Pound for pound he's the best!!!
But the need of man to watch long show for demonstrate the DEEP game put in second way the Other qualityes...

Pit general, gr ch Art Was able to tear away a pesce of meat from the opponent...
Chinaman crippled a dog... They were finisher... Like Zebo too..

I know these is the gamedog... Not mouth dog.. But this can open the way to a super mouth heavy eur dog to keep the pitbull down and destroy him with few bites...

[waccamaw]

Don't believe what you see on animal channel ,no dog bites like a pit bull,period I know fellas in jap that have bothe tosa and pits ,I have also seen mastiff and bullmastiff try and take a rough boar ,they could not hang on or take the punishment .when the pit could hang and do damage plus could take what the big boar thrower at him ,I have even seen the pits get gutted by a boar and still hang on while you killed the hog .to sum it up there is no dog on earth like the American pit bull terrier.

[Officially Retired]

Breeding pit to tosa is for hybrid vigor.
The hardest bite is of dog like Bandog 50 mastiff and 50 pitbull, Tosa, bullykutta.
Pitbull at 30 kg can be compared yes... Pound for pound he's the best!!!
But the need of man to watch long show for demonstrate the DEEP game put in second way the Other qualityes...
Pit general, gr ch Art Was able to tear away a pesce of meat from the opponent...
Chinaman crippled a dog... They were finisher... Like Zebo too..
I know these is the gamedog... Not mouth dog.. But this can open the way to a super mouth heavy eur dog to keep the pitbull down and destroy him with few bites...


This is all simple-minded nonsense.

There is no one "bite power" that can be attibutable to any breed of dog. There are pit bulls that can't bust a grape, and there are pit bulls that can break bones and destroy tissue with every bite, with every range of "bite power" inbetween :idea:

And so it is with every breed of dog known to man ... some individuals will bite harder than other individuals ... and that is it.

Trying to say, "Pit bulls bite harder than tosas" (or visa versa) is ridiculous. The truth is (to anyone with a lick of sense and a drop of basic dog knowledge) some pit bulls bite harder than some tosas ... while some tosas bite harder than some pit bulls ... and NO ONE can make an absolute, conclusive, definitive statement about which breed bites harder than which "always."

Thus this discussion is sophomoric, at best, and retarded at worst.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I have to disagree ,on average the pit has more mouth ,even a soft mouth pit has a hard mouth ,I have skinned out hogs that tissue was bused up from soft mouth pits .but a walker hound can crack a bone when he wants to.

[Officially Retired]

I have to disagree ,on average the pit has more mouth ,even a soft mouth pit has a hard mouth ,I have skinned out hogs that tissue was bused up from soft mouth pits .but a walker hound can crack a bone when he wants to.


That may well be true, but for any test to be conclusive someone would literally have to take a sample of at least a few thousand dogs, of each breed type, conduct actual pressure tests, and then publish the bell-shaped curve of the statistic spread to see which "average" is greater. If any.

Without this concrete data, everyone is pretty much discussing opinions and biases, not facts.

Obviously, I agree that the pit bull is (pound-for-pound) the greatest fighting dog on earth ... "on average" ... but lots of them can't bite all that hard.

What makes them such great fighters is their general athleticism and gameness ... and what makes them hang on, even when mutilated, isn't "biting power" so much as tenacity and gameness: the refusal to let go.

Jack

[R2L]

it doesnt make sense to compare biting force with a 3 times bigger dog

[waccamaw]

We had a 200 lb german rott that wondered into cyclones chain space ,we had to break cyclone off him.that dang dog had holes in him you could put a golf ball in and cyclone just had scratches ,but as far a a protector that rott was a beast .

[waccamaw]

The best I remember from what the japs told me tosa rules are alot different from American rules ,the dogs are slow and more in comparison to a sumo wrestler .

[Jon P. Lebron]

About the dogs biting force, I can only say that I have only seen Bulldogs breaking rocks and I mean fist size rocks and this was a 35-40 lb bulldog. Now the fact that Japanese dog man cross their Tosas with bulldogs, should tell you that this dogman now that the bulldogs have something that the Tosas don't have.

[EWO]

In the early 90's I had a few Fila Brasileiros. At the bite portion of the working weekend the guy being paid to test the dogs asked if anyone wanted to give it a try. I took bites from the Filas. They were somewhat hard mouthed, but it was a frontal bite, and it was a lot of weight (120-160lbs dogs) pulling down. Next was a Malinois about 80lbs. Hard mouthed, lots of tenacity, full mouth bite. The next was a 45lb. pit bulldog of a Snooty/Pool Hall red breeding. The bite pressure of the other dogs felt like nothing in comparison to the pit bulldog. He was sent from about 15-20 yards and he brought a load. The last dog was a 85-90lb American Bulldog. His pressure on the sleeve was more than the others but not like the pit, but he went airborne, hit the sleeve and knocked me on my ass. Quite impressive.
These are just one individual dog from only three or four different breeds. I can't say it crosses all dogs of every breed, but in this case the pit dog had far more bite pressure than the others. I doubt there is anyway to really test bite, like in pounds per square inch, or so many lbs of pressure, as there is no way to tell if the dog is biting all out. I agree with Jack, it is the desire to stay there that makes the difference. That desire, I believe, is exclusive to the APBT. EWO

[will888]

Jack why do you say it's a nonsense?

I know that the statistic science need lot of data on dog to make a reasonable description about bite force of different dog breeds... It's about all things!!!

I told you the Tosa is a bigger mastiff near the pitbull...
So if you compare the hardest bite of a tosa with the hardest bite of a pitbull i think the tosa would have the hardest...

But mouth is not all, the weight plays an important rule... The tosa keep him down and the pitbull has to pull and push a weight of 60- 70 kg...

And pitbull get tired soon in comparison to fight with a same weight dog...

And if the tosa give a neck bite or spine bite... It's a big big trouble...

I love the pitbull and respect the breed more than you think believe me!!!

FOR ME A 30 kg of hard hard mouth pitbull is the ZENITH OF THE WARRIOR CANINE FAMILY!!!

But focus on long shows the true finishers don't have the right space.

Pitbull must be the top!!!
Gr ch Tano demostrates this!!!

But i know Tosas won over 30 kg pitbulls... And i would know if it is caused by the breeder that isn't able to select good bulldogs... Or it's only because the Tosa is a super fighter

[Eliman]

It's because Tosa is 30 to 40 kg's bigger period would you contract into another bulldog that is 5, 10 or 15 lbs heaver no because there is only one out come and it doesn't make the larger winner the better bulldog just the smaller ones owner a damn fool a Tosa's ability is no way comparable lb for lb to the APBT as a combat dog bulldogs are in a league of there own.

RoughNeck

[Jon P. Lebron]

will888 ask your self which breed of fighting dog is the one used all over the world? The answer is the bulldog, it used from North America all the way to South America, it is used in Europe, and many of the country's where they have their own fighting breed, Japan, Turkey, Russia, ect. This fact alone shows that the bulldog is the best fighting dog breed, also the bulldog game is a scratching game, the Tosa is fought with different rules, no emphasis on scratching.

[waccamaw]

If you will read Richard f stratons first book ,I think it was 3 pitbulls that went over to jap and they all won..against the tosa

[will888]

Yes i asked to myself many times!!!
And i Found out that pitbull is pound for pound the best at all !!!
But tell me how many dogs you know that are 30 kg conditioned...
Some lonzo... Some neblet... But a 30 kg match pitbull is a Short full of blood match that can least 20 minutes because one of the two is seriously wounded!!!!

In Balkans there is Amor's Skar that won a match in 7 hours!!!
But do you think the opponent of him had the same mouth of Eli, bullyson or Pit general or gr ch Art?

In story gr ch Art, General, Eli were stolen because freack of nature...

But some people are too concentrate to gameness!!!!
Ok it's the base but if my dog in 7 hours don't kill nothing in the 4X 4 ... He has a cat mouth!!!

So in Balkans dear ELIMAN dogman call Eli line the cur line!!!
But for me they are out of head!!! For me Eli is the true warrior package!
They have mouth, and the will to finish and know were bite to do damage!!!

But if in the Balkans a show least 10 minutes for them is a cur show!!!

Hey believe me i love pitbull... But this sport push the man to select the 15-20 kg!!!
Not because 15-20 kg are the best!!!
If not why dogman refuse the fight if the opponent is only 300 g heavyer?

And would you put in a pit an hard mouth 20 kg pitbull vs an hard mouth 30 kg conditioned pitbull?

If not why??

Tell me how many 30 kg do you have and how many 15-20 kg do you have ...

I think in a kennel of 10 dog you have 8-9 of 15-20 kg...

It's not a provocation!!!
It's only to make you think on this and ask you why...

Thanks for your replyes

[R2L]

this discussion is sophomoric, at best, and retarded at worst..

[waccamaw]

Years ago people had what they called catch wght dogs ,if you called catch wght you could be hunting. A 57 lb dog with a 100 lb dog catch wght simply meant big dog against big dog no certain wght wght called other than catch wght ,so if the tosa ,mastiff ,bullmastiff are such heavier mouth and could have it done in 10 min don't y'all think alot of those dogs would have been used against the pit ,and win ,we'll it did not happen so this must tell you something about the mouth of the pit plus how many have seen 60 plus pound pits ,if you have they can really close their mouth such as big John .mayday ,and all the others .

[will888]

.

Don't tell this shit !!! You sure don't know the truth!!!

I'm telling you the pitbull is the best !!!
27-30 kg is a total package of speed, agility and power!!!

I know!!!

I'm retarded???!?!?
Why?

Because i'm asking you about this?

I soon told you gr ch Tito won over a Tosa!!!

But i also saw Tosa won over pitbulls...

For me the truth is this:

MONEY!!!!

When a kennel challenge an other kennel or when 10 pitbull dogman ask for a match against any tosa the truth come out!!!

And i hope pitbull dogman win!!!

In some place from est there are tosa kennel in big numbers...

So over there there is the possibility to face off !!!

Not in America...

Stratton it's ok, but they push hard the selection for cajun rules...

If a dogman try to contract a match with a tosa dogman and he refuses... That mean that the Tosa is not enought for a pitbull!!!

[R2L]

Im not saying you are retarded but the discussion tends to it.

Like jack said.
[quote ... some individuals will bite harder than other individuals ... and that is it.[/quote]
And some tosu's could win over pitbulls and some not.

I don't think any serious dogman would contract his dog with a tosu. So it makes me wonder what quality the dogs were that matched into them. I wouldnt think it had any value when mine would win over one. Just a stupid risk of harming a dog in its prime which could spend its time training for the real deal.

[waccamaw]

In Japan dogs are carefully bred and trained and the game is conducted under strict rules and accompanied by holy rituals and processions. The dog fights among Tosa's should never be cruel or bloody and they never end with the death of one of the participants. On the contrary, the fights are designed to last long and, contrary to pit dog fights, a dog that goes for a fast and easy victory, is not considered a good specimen. Similar to Sumo wrestling, the dogs try to bring and hold each other down on the floor. If he dominates for more than 3 min. (or 5 min. if the fight lasted for more than 15 min.) he is declared the winner. A whining or growling dog is declared the loser. The same goes for a dog that turns its hind to the opponent or moves back three steps when attacked. The fight ends in any case after 30 min. in a nil draw if neither of the dogs has proved superior to the other. Unlike most other fighting dog breeds, the original Tosa is conscious of the symbolic value of the fight and it respects the rules of the game and its opponents.
Like sumo wrestlers, the dogs are graded into a hierarchy according to the points they have recently earned. The greatest Tosa "wrestlers" receive the title of Yokozuna, like the famous sumo's.

[will888]

Im not saying you are retarded but the discussion tends to it.

Like jack said.
[quote ... some individuals will bite harder than other individuals ... and that is it.
And some tosu's could win over pitbulls and some not.

I don't think any serious dogman would contract his dog with a tosu. So it makes me wonder what quality the dogs were that matched into them. I wouldnt think it had any value when mine would win over one. Just a stupid risk of harming a dog in its prime which could spend its time training for the real deal.[/QUOTE]

Sorry i don't understand well...

Is it a risck for a pitbull because he could be seriously wounded or because he could learn to fight in a Bad way?


And i know in Japan fight is stricly related with sumo and religion.

But out of that race they started to select dogs in base a more realistic fight...

But mine are only words...

I don 't know if there are match between the two breed...
And to conclude this argouments whe have to put the 30 best pitbull 30 kg vs the 30 best Tosas ...

I will try to find out more info about this...

Sure in Corea APBT is not at the same level of usa or Mexico pitbulls...
This is sure!!!

Thanks to all for your info

[evolutionkennels]

In Japan dogs are carefully bred and trained and the game is conducted under strict rules and accompanied by holy rituals and processions. The dog fights among Tosa's should never be cruel or bloody and they never end with the death of one of the participants. On the contrary, the fights are designed to last long and, contrary to pit dog fights, a dog that goes for a fast and easy victory, is not considered a good specimen. Similar to Sumo wrestling, the dogs try to bring and hold each other down on the floor. If he dominates for more than 3 min. (or 5 min. if the fight lasted for more than 15 min.) he is declared the winner. A whining or growling dog is declared the loser. The same goes for a dog that turns its hind to the opponent or moves back three steps when attacked. The fight ends in any case after 30 min. in a nil draw if neither of the dogs has proved superior to the other. Unlike most other fighting dog breeds, the original Tosa is conscious of the symbolic value of the fight and it respects the rules of the game and its opponents.
Like sumo wrestlers, the dogs are graded into a hierarchy according to their e points they have recently earned. The greatest Tosa "wrestlers" receive the title of Yokozuna, like the famous sumo's.


100% True, well said wacc, finally some enlightenment. I'll add this, and to argue against is an uphill battle. GR. CH. MAYDAY OR CH. BIG JOHN AGAINST AN EQUAL WEIGHT TOSA WITH WHATEVER TITLE WONT LAST 15 MINUTES CAJUN RULES. FURTHERMORE , AT THE SAME WEIGHT, WITH TOSA RULES..... SAME RESULT. LASTLY A 60 POUND PIT AGAINST A 100 POUND TOSA WITH TOSA RULES, THE TOSA IS MORE LIKELY TO WIN BECAUSE OF WEIGHT ADVANTAGE. PERIOD

[BlackHeartWarrior]

I've seen pit bulls in schoolings what could not even puncture the skin i also know of a 4xw what has barely left a puncture wound on all his opponents. I feel jacks opinion is correct because i have seen it with my own eyes

[waccamaw]

You ever heard of pressure biters ,some dogs don't leave holes due to the shape of the teeth or the skin of the other animal and some just cant bite .just like all are not game .but that is not the average bulldog.a pressure bite is one that seems like he is not doing anything and the next thing you know something is dead ,or the next day swollen beyond belief
.kinda like it takes less pressure to push a knife blade through you than it does the handle.

[Eliman]

Seen a few wacc that fluid sacks come up before the hunt is even over :shocked:

RoughNeck

[waccamaw]

Sometimes the next day .

[EWO]

Not that I have any scientific data, so it is strictly opinion, I would venture to say the pit bull dog on the average will have harder mouth. The individual specimens I experienced on the sleeve were from one end of the dog group to the other and that particular day the bulldog bit with an incredible amount of force/pressure than the other dogs. With that said, there is no way I could say the Malinois was biting as hard as it possibly could, or the Fila could have bit harder but was using its weight to pull me in closer. Some years back my partner had a snap ring failure on a walk near a pasture. The end result was a broken up lamb. We put her down and fed her to the dogs. During the dressing part I thought I understood the devastation of a hard mouth dog by seeing it from the outside, but to see it from the inside gave me an brand new insight. One for the amount of damage but two, and more importantly, these dogs will scratch back for more.

Without scientific data it is hard to say one can bite any harder than the other. Impossible to say one dog is biting to his fullest at any given time. I would guess that the reason is because they just want to based on lineage and history. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Well said yourself EWO.

[ToTheDogs]

Upup

[will888]

Upup

Why did you delete what you wrote?

You wrote that a Tosa won over a gr ch from Mexico...

Why?

[ToTheDogs]

I didn't write shit and don't know what you are talkin bout.