View Full Version : Scratch to win
Who likes to include it in the contract?
If not, do you still let the dog scratch?
gotap_d
09-06-2013, 02:32 PM
Its no big deal either way. But if its not specified in the contract it still should be done if the handling began as a result of an out of holds count. The question i would like to ad to this thread is this. If the handling begins as a result of an out of holds count and the bottom hod stands the other must scratch to win, if that hog refuses to cross what is the out come? Is it a draw? A no contest? Or do both get called losers?
its a draw i guess. I would consider it a loss tho.
TopShelfKennels
09-06-2013, 03:19 PM
I think scratch to win should be mandatory. As a handler/owner, id like to see mine courtesy. Jmo
I am not a fan of making it a stipulation upfront. It is a fine line between the sportsman aspect and the gambling aspect. If the other dog has stopped or been stopped and does not make his scratch I feel no obligation to show mine will. Mostly because if the other side has doubts about my dog after their dog has lost they have to pay to see him again. My concept at the show is not to prove my dog is game, or even find out if your dog is game, that should have been done long ago (will do a first time out on the cheap as a game check, but that is a different topic) at the show it is about winning. For me, it is a two man team. I can't ask him to do all that I ask of him, everything it takes to win, then when he wins, I ask him to do one more thing for nothing more than a display. The fruits of our labor must have a reward. EWO
FrostyPaws
09-06-2013, 09:53 PM
If both dogs stand from an OOH count, it's a draw. I, personally, would never agree to a scratch to win contest.
grindhard
09-07-2013, 04:15 AM
well said ewo
Well said. If both dogs stand on OOH count it is a draw. If one stands on his scratch I see no need to scratch mine just to show he will. When the opposite guy stands, tries but can't or any combination of the two, if he does not come on his scratch, well, it is over. (it is a team sport) In that very split second my dog is declared the winner my most important contribution to the team is to see after his best interests, in lots of situations, those seconds that turn into minutes are precious to saving the dog. That is somewhat dramatic but as soon as the after care starts the better the chances of saving the dog/the dog coming back again.
I have seen shows where there is, let's say, 'hostility in the air'. some trash talking of sorts, and a guy scratches his winning dog to 'show' the crowd he will. I have seen the ones where there was no stipulation upfront and the losing team starts screaming 'you gotta scratch to win' in a last ditch effort to save their money. Personally, I don't give in to either. It is a scratching contest. The starting point to the contest is "Release your dogs" and end point is 8, 9 , 10...this dog the winner" anything after that has no benefit to the dog. At that point I want my dog's best interests to come first. Get'em up and get'em doctored. EWO
If both dogs stand from an OOH count, it's a draw. I, personally, would never agree to a scratch to win contest.
The Old Timer.
09-07-2013, 06:55 AM
good posts EWO, I agree 100 %, I would not scratch my dog for fear he could break a tooth in a scratch that was not necessary.
TopShelfKennels
09-07-2013, 10:28 AM
I agree the dogs best interest is priority. But once you step over those walls, he is a competitor and in my opinion, the scratch is how you win. Completing the scratch ensures a winner, if one quits and the other doesnt have too, then technically speaking, many dogs are saved from a draw. (Loss) If scratching is the name of the game, then i believe you should scratch to win. From a gambler's view, i wouldnt want to scratch if the opponent quit already, but as competitor who strives for quality, i am very proud knowing we won definitively. But too each his own, i understand the reasoning behind both preferences.
I agree, once you step over the wall it is a competition. Competition is about winning and losing. Striving for quality and being proud of winning definitively are just feelings. They have nothing to do with winning. All those things should be done prior to stepping over the wall. When one steps over the wall the question of striving for quality should have already been answered. Once the win has been established that is all that should be asked of a dog. No need to do extra just to satisfy a personal feeling.
Scratching is the name of the game. A dog is only and should only be required to scratch when it is his turn to do so. I understand it can be seen from both sides of the fence, and to each his own. I just think every dog has the right to quit (not scratch) and no dog should be asked to do so if does not have to do so (scratch to win).
And with that said. I have seen the night (as a younger guy) that I would make a statement scratch at the end just to stick it in he face of the crowd or the opposite side. There is nothing like winning, and then showing there is more where that came from. As I got a little older I came to the way of thinking that once all the pre-req's are complete and we step over the wall...it is all about the dog...My personal feelings and my ego are on the other side of the wall.
Great series of posts. Great topic. Good insight. EWO
TopShelfKennels
09-07-2013, 12:17 PM
Point taken! I see where you're coming from.
Scratch to win, or scratch to continue. Should never be a stipulation in order for you and your dog to win. It can be asked for verbally by the other handler and up to the other party to accept or not. Seldom is there any advantage for one to do either.
You can ask for a courtesy scratch on either dog after the counting is done and have a declared winner. The time and work that goes into a dog keep. You go to Win even if it is by the hair of your chinny chin chin. LOL
Pedhelper
09-10-2013, 01:59 AM
"I agree the dogs best interest is priority. But once you step over those walls, he is a competitor and in my opinion, the scratch is how you win. Completing the scratch ensures a winner, if one quits and the other doesnt have too, then technically speaking, many dogs are saved from a draw. (Loss) If scratching is the name of the game, then i believe you should scratch to win. From a gambler's view, i wouldnt want to scratch if the opponent quit already, but as competitor who strives for quality, i am very proud knowing we won definitively. But too each his own, i understand the reasoning behind both preferences." - my view exactly!
If scratch to win was mandatory in Cajun rules, it basically wouldnt matter who makes the first turn and who's turn it is to scratch. I must say i really like this aspect of the game. Yes, probably many have been saved from a draw, but thats the game and like EWO said, if anyone doubts they have to put their money where their mouth is :lol:
evolutionkennels
09-10-2013, 09:41 AM
If scratch to win was mandatory in Cajun rules, it basically wouldnt matter who makes the first turn and who's turn it is to scratch. I must say i really like this aspect of the game. Yes, probably many have been saved from a draw, but thats the game and like EWO said, if anyone doubts they have to put their money where their mouth is :lol:
We always did scratch to win. The downside is that if you 86 the dog in the box, some dogs won't scratch to a dead dog. In machobuck 5th, CH. Edge was dead in 38 minutes, from 38 min to 1:27 Machobuck was literally dismembering the other dog. Luckily, he let go a half of second to catch his breath and dtown was able to scoop him up. Even more lucky was that by then Machobuck thought edge was his chew toy and he freightrained on his release. Some dogs won't. But i agree, imo, scratch to win is a must
In the Cajun rules you do not have to scratch to win or to a dead dog to win. If a dog is counted out, dies in a match for any reason it is the automatic loser. If a dog jumps the pit and feet hit the ground is a automatic loser. If there is a scratch to win agreement, the referee should know and the spectators.
When your opponent will not pick up a losing or dying dog. If one ask you to scratch to win may be hoping your dog will not scratch to a dead dog or has seen a fault in your dog. Unless you have a deep game high predator drive dog. Best to decline and remind that person of the rules.
One should never have a person referee that does not have a book of the Cajun rules and knows all of it. I have seen sore losers pick up their dog, let your dog slam into the corner wall on scratch to win or courtesy scratches.
Another reason some will leave a losing dog down is in hopes of killing your dog as well. From the excessive exertion and drawing the match out to long. Sometimes the winning dog can go into shock.
This sort of thing stays in the mind of dog men a long time. When Burton refused to pick up his badly hurt and dying dog. The Con trying to be pulled, was the scratch to win or scratch to continue. A good Referee should have stepped in reminded him of the poor sportsmanship he was displaying. That soon as that dog is declared dead. He loses and the party is over. Which did happen but was drawn out way to long.
I seen this sort of thing maybe once or twice. The good dog men shunned them and would not match them. When the other dog is counted out and you want a courtesy scratch ask for it and tail scratch your dog. There is a smart part of match making. If you saw a bad fault in the winning dog and you have that weight. Try to match into that dog at a later date.
It is not good policy and bad manners to jump up in the crowd and loudly challenge the winning dog. Best to let all winners have their day, shake hands and be friendly. Earl Tudor said a match well made is a match well won.
Overtime I saw the dog game go from a wonderful dog fraternity to grudge matches between the different dog camps. When the dope dealers, big money gambling, gangsta groups showed up. The sport became less fun and more violent. Was no longer about game dogs only money, pride and power.
W. T. told me the last bad thing he saw not to far back was a little bitch that had given her all and fell forward on her scratch line. Could not get up, was counted out. The owner in front of the group forced her head down into a bucket of water and drowned her. Hopefully that guy owns no breed of dogs today. Cheers
TopShelfKennels
09-10-2013, 12:01 PM
If the dog is dead before you can make a handle, then i wouldnt stress a courtesy all that much. But its really shitty to see dogs win in under 30 without scratching once simply because the other dog quit first. To me thats just not exceptable to me. JMHO.
I would not agree to it upfront and would not be looking for it in the end. To each his own though. Lots of people interpret the scratch differently. Some say the scratch is to prove a dog game. I say the scratch is to allow a dog the opportunity to quit. For me that is where it ends. All I have ever asked my dogs to do is make their scratch and once they have made theirs I am not looking for another, especially if the last set of words I hear is 8...9...10..."he ain't coming". EWO
TopShelfKennels
09-10-2013, 06:38 PM
EWO, I agree each dog should be given the opportunity to quit. As well as given the opportunity to continue...im simply saying that without a courtesy scratch the other is not given the opportunity to do anything but stand in your arms. Once the opponent quits, it should be the others chance/opportunity to quit or continue, if he wants to continue declare him winner. That in my opinion is 100% fair rule wise. But on the flip side i do see the logic in not wanting to ask your dog to charge into battle again.
evolutionkennels
09-10-2013, 08:06 PM
In the Cajun rules you do not have to scratch to win or to a dead dog to win. If a dog is counted out, dies in a match for any reason it is the automatic loser. If a dog jumps the pit and feet hit the ground is a automatic loser. If there is a scratch to win agreement, the referee should know and the spectators.
When your opponent will not pick up a losing or dying dog. If one ask you to scratch to win may be hoping your dog will not scratch to a dead dog or has seen a fault in your dog. Unless you have a deep game high predator drive dog. Best to decline and remind that person of the rules.
One should never have a person referee that does not have a book of the Cajun rules and knows all of it. I have seen sore losers pick up their dog, let your dog slam into the corner wall on scratch to win or courtesy scratches.
Another reason some will leave a losing dog down is in hopes of killing your dog as well. From the excessive exertion and drawing the match out to long. Sometimes the winning dog can go into shock.
This sort of thing stays in the mind of dog men a long time. When Burton refused to pick up his badly hurt and dying dog. The Con trying to be pulled, was the scratch to win or scratch to continue. A good Referee should have stepped in reminded him of the poor sportsmanship he was displaying. That soon as that dog is declared dead. He loses and the party is over. Which did happen but was drawn out way to long.
I seen this sort of thing maybe once or twice. The good dog men shunned them and would not match them. When the other dog is counted out and you want a courtesy scratch ask for it and tail scratch your dog. There is a smart part of match making. If you saw a bad fault in the winning dog and you have that weight. Try to match into that dog at a later date.
It is not good policy and bad manners to jump up in the crowd and loudly challenge the winning dog. Best to let all winners have their day, shake hands and be friendly. Earl Tudor said a match well made is a match well won.
Overtime I saw the dog game go from a wonderful dog fraternity to grudge matches between the different dog camps. When the dope dealers, big money gambling, gangsta groups showed up. The sport became less fun and more violent. Was no longer about game dogs only money, pride and power.
W. T. told me the last bad thing he saw not to far back was a little bitch that had given her all and fell forward on her scratch line. Could not get up, was counted out. The owner in front of the group forced her head down into a bucket of water and drowned her. Hopefully that guy owns no breed of dogs today. Cheers
We always agreed previous
FrostyPaws
09-12-2013, 08:57 PM
If the dog is legitimately dead, the match is over. There's no reason for a dog that's legitimately dead at 38 minutes to be drug around for almost an hour.
And honestly, I've never owned a dog that wouldn't scratch to a down dog, and I can't think of any dog I've ever seen that wouldn't scratch to a down dog in the opposite corner.
EWO THAT's the best post I've ever read online period. Reason being is I say it to people all the time, the show is for winning not proving if your game. Although it takes gameness to win you better know before you bet.
I am not a fan of making it a stipulation upfront. It is a fine line between the sportsman aspect and the gambling aspect. If the other dog has stopped or been stopped and does not make his scratch I feel no obligation to show mine will. Mostly because if the other side has doubts about my dog after their dog has lost they have to pay to see him again. My concept at the show is not to prove my dog is game, or even find out if your dog is game, that should have been done long ago (will do a first time out on the cheap as a game check, but that is a different topic) at the show it is about winning. For me, it is a two man team. I can't ask him to do all that I ask of him, everything it takes to win, then when he wins, I ask him to do one more thing for nothing more than a display. The fruits of our labor must have a reward. EWO
Make all checks payable to EWO...LOL...It is a great topic. I am not sure if there are actual right or wrong answers or just passionate opinions. I believe there are starting and stopping points to most every endeavor. When one dog fails to make his/her scratch, for me, it is over at that point, period. Again, for me, asking my dog to make a display, or prove something is not on my list of priorities at that point. As soon as one dog fails to make his scratch, or at the point one dog is declared the winner, the only thing that really matters is the well being of the dog/dogs. (With the money exchange a close second). EWO
Officially Retired
09-28-2013, 06:14 AM
I have always thought any man who deliberately allows his game dog to be killed in a match at all, wasn't a dogman to begin with, but a gambler with no regard for his game dog.
Jack
evolutionkennels
09-28-2013, 11:33 AM
I have always thought any man who deliberately allows his game dog to be killed in a match at all, wasn't a dogman to begin with, but a gambler with no regard for his game dog.
Jack
Agreed
Without a doubt. Very true. EWO
I have always thought any man who deliberately allows his game dog to be killed in a match at all, wasn't a dogman to begin with, but a gambler with no regard for his game dog.
Jack
bolero
09-29-2013, 08:08 AM
I have always thought any man who deliberately allows his game dog to be killed in a match at all, wasn't a dogman to begin with, but a gambler with no regard for his game dog.
Jack
sadly jack that is how most dogmen are
Officially Retired
09-29-2013, 04:53 PM
I agree, it is sad.
I don't know what is wrong with saying, "Hey, the little guy just doesn't have it today, but damn he's trying his best," and just picking up a game dog? Why does death have to be a part of fighting? Why does any match (except in rare instances) have to have a negative outcome? Folks, it's OKAY to pick up! :)
We watch and enjoy human fights all the time, and yet death is never a part of the outcome. We can pretty much tell who the winner is long before lives become at risk. This same truth applies to the dogs 99% of the time. Only rarely do 2 dead game dogs of equal ability face each other. And that is why the sporting concept of "a draw" was invented: for the human dogmen to protect their own game dogs from death.
Really, I have bred as many or more truly game dogs as anyone alive today, and I have never had to kill a dog in school to determine if it was "game enough" or not. I can tell within a few minutes if I like the dog's style, and by :20-:30 minutes if it can compete with the best in the world, and I have been able to determine this quite accurately for a very long time now. Yes, my dogs lose too, but you gotta whip one to join "The 10% Club" and actually beat one when the smoke clears. It will not be a cakewalk. And I have NEVER had to "leave any dog down," make it crawl, or kill a dog, to get this level of consistency.
So when people make excuses and talk about "their standards" and pretend that high standards = killing dogs, I call bullshit. That is just demented, sociopathic, psychotic abuse of game dogs, nothing more. I absolutely know this to be true. NO ONE needs to abuse dogs to prove gameness. NO ONE needs to allow dogs to get killed to determine quality, anymore than we "need" to do this in human fighting to determine quality. If a person can't see "quality" in a dog from just a normal, fairly hard roll then he simply is blind and doesn't have an eye for a dog. To say that, "Some dogs have to be killed," to keep the standard of winning alive is pure, fabricated bullshit. It is only what sick people spew to justify their sickness and abuse of game dogs.
Nothing more.
Very well said Jack. For some it is hard to understand the operative word in the phrase 'dead game' is dead, not game. EWO
Officially Retired
09-29-2013, 07:33 PM
Exactly. And, if that level of gameness is the most treasured commodity in these dogs, then taking dogs that game to their death is (essentially) throwing the most treasured quality away with both hands.
Not a very good strategy for success, to say nothing of clean sportsmanship.
If I wasn't able to breed to the deeply-game dogs I started my yard with, I wouldn't have enjoyed the win/loss ratio I did as a breeder. I think founding a yard on deep gameness first, and then gradually breeding for more ability, is a better route to go (strategy-wise) than trying to breed high-ability curs together, and then trying to "add more gameness" ...
The former makes for more confidence in the trenches :lol:
Jack
scratchin dog
09-29-2013, 09:14 PM
I agree, it is sad.
I don't know what is wrong with saying, "Hey, the little guy just doesn't have it today, but damn he's trying his best," and just picking up a game dog? Why does death have to be a part of fighting? Why does any match (except in rare instances) have to have a negative outcome? Folks, it's OKAY to pick up! :)
We watch and enjoy human fights all the time, and yet death is never a part of the outcome. We can pretty much tell who the winner is long before lives become at risk. This same truth applies to the dogs 99% of the time. Only rarely do 2 dead game dogs of equal ability face each other. And that is why the sporting concept of "a draw" was invented: for the human dogmen to protect their own game dogs from death.
Really, I have bred as many or more truly game dogs as anyone alive today, and I have never had to kill a dog in school to determine if it was "game enough" or not. I can tell within a few minutes if I like the dog's style, and by :20-:30 minutes if it can compete with the best in the world, and I have been able to determine this quite accurately for a very long time now. Yes, my dogs lose too, but you gotta whip one to join "The 10% Club" and actually beat one when the smoke clears. It will not be a cakewalk. And I have NEVER had to "leave any dog down," make it crawl, or kill a dog, to get this level of consistency.
So when people make excuses and talk about "their standards" and pretend that high standards = killing dogs, I call bullshit. That is just demented, sociopathic, psychotic abuse of game dogs, nothing more. I absolutely know this to be true. NO ONE needs to abuse dogs to prove gameness. NO ONE needs to allow dogs to get killed to determine quality, anymore than we "need" to do this in human fighting to determine quality. If a person can't see "quality" in a dog from just a normal, fairly hard roll then he simply is blind and doesn't have an eye for a dog. To say that, "Some dogs have to be killed," to keep the standard of winning alive is pure, fabricated bullshit. It is only what sick people spew to justify their sickness and abuse of game dogs.
Nothing more.
:appl: Great post!
Great series of posts.
Leaving a dog down too long is part of my not being a fan of the scratch to continue. My belief that scratching is meant to allow a dog to quit (which every dog has the right to do so) and not meant to prove a dog is game is why I do not like the scratch to win stipulation. Sort of like little steps. If the dog wants to quit, let him, and then it is over. The dog that made his last scratch has done all that is asked, again, it is over. Allowing/making a game dog scratch just for a repeated display of his gameness after his opponent has checked up is extra....and extra is not what I am looking for at that point.
When the dog checks up, or is picked up, or I have picked up, in that split second in time all the energies should be switched from the match to the well being of the dog/dogs involved.
Great reference to boxing/MMA. There have been many fighters who would have on their own come out for the 16th/17th/18th round and potentially died either there, or shortly after from their beating. The only drawback to rules and rounds and judges is sometimes there are quick stoppages. Quick stoppages suck for the loser and the fans but the alternative is watching someone get beat to death. It is a no-brainer there. Like Jack said, pretty much no difference in the dogs. Most matches are less than an hour, (for any number of reasons) and in most matches the winner is clear 30-40-50 minutes. (I agree some great stories have been told about dogs who come from the bottom and win after an hour plus dragging, but they are the exception, not the rule.)
After a clear winner has been displayed (in lots of cases) the losing camp leaves the dog down because they either do not know any better, they do not care, they are hoping against hope the other dog will quit on top to save and save their money. For me, and it is only a personal opinion, this is like first cousins to scratching to win. The dog is doing more than he was originally asked to do, and I am not a big fan of that. EWO (sorry for the length)
Great posts
@ Jack, this is something i quoted from another topic.
Therefore, although I stopped competing, I was able to continuously succeed as a breeder because I understood the Cajun Rules as well as the basic rules of fighting, which is "Protect yourself at all times."
To me, any dog that didn't have a high degree of athleticism + the sense to keep itself from "getting bit back" was a loser dog to me. A lot of people may "be happy" watching 2 dogs "swap it out," but the reality is such dogs are stupid palookas and not World Class animals in my book. A World Class dog does all the biting without getting bit much in return. Even if he's a killer, to my way of thinking a truly good killer is still killing in such a way as to position himself out of harm's way.
After having schooled dogs with people from coast-to-coast, and getting feedback from several hundred matches, it is my firm conviction that most people accept dogs that aren't really all that athletic or bright ... they're mainly "rough and predictable" ... and they're not too game, either. Because that's another thing I have always enjoyed more than the average guy in dogs is some f***ing incredibly game dogs. 9.5x out of 10, if any match with one of my dogs goes over the hour mark, it's the Vise-Grip dog that's going to win on the scratching. Very rarely do my dogs ever lose a scratching contest ... which, essentially is what a Cajun Rules contest is ... and that has been proven time-and-time-again.
So winning consistently isn't just about "you being happy," it's about really knowing fighting strategy in general. It may "make you happy" to watch one-dimensional stifle dogs driving for the back end, but I promise you will never achieve a 9x/10 win record choosing dogs of this style to continuously breed for. You may get an occasional ace that can make that work, but you will be losing (and counting to 10) more often than winning. Further, producing dogs that win consistently goes beyond knowing what a winning style looks like, it's also about selecting the right dogs (and family) that display this winning style to breed together, and then continuously making the right choices as to how to sustain (and improve upon) the gene pool you're working with to keep it that way (or improve upon it).
I will write that this is by no means meant to offend anyone, so that this is clear..lol. Not saying getting damaged, bitten on ugly spots or being in pain is the only reason for a dog to stop. But i wonder how dogs that hardly ever get bit themselves can proof (proof to you) they are game for real? I think dogs or a line of dogs who hardly get bit and almost always win a scratching contest is just great and more then i could wish for. But i think it says more about other ability's then gameness. Or as they say "game enough to win"
Standing by ready for the internet spanking,...here goes.
I do not doubt the 87% success rate nor the 95% game rate when just factoring in the dogs. My questions have always been how you found 8.7 out of every 10 persons that were knowledgeable enough to allow 9.5 out of every 10 dogs sold/placed/produced to be proven game without being &^%ked up along the way. Over the years I have seen lots of ignorance (ignorance being just not knowing any better) and stupidity. I always wondered about the screening process.
And I say this because I have always believed across the board the dogs as whole are far better than they are given credit for because so many are crippled by their individual owners. I basically have more faith in the dogs than I do in man, sad, but true. (And I apologize for straying off topic). EWO
Officially Retired
09-30-2013, 06:12 AM
Great posts
@ Jack, this is something i quoted from another topic.
I will write that this is by no means meant to offend anyone, so that this is clear..lol. Not saying getting damaged, bitten on ugly spots or being in pain is the only reason for a dog to stop. But i wonder how dogs that hardly ever get bit themselves can proof (proof to you) they are game for real? I think dogs or a line of dogs who hardly get bit and almost always win a scratching contest is just great and more then i could wish for. But i think it says more about other ability's then gameness. Or as they say "game enough to win"
I know my dogs are game "for real" because 1) they are founded upon extreme gameness, coming in HIGH LITTER PERCENTAGES, and 2) the times when my dogs have lost, it has invariably been absolutely game to the core.
When Silverback's half-brother Energizer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=24787) lost to Wonderboy's Ch Pup Pup (a candidate for dog of the year), Energizer went 2:45 (which was longer than all Pup Pup's other matches put together), and he crawled, rolled, flopped to get over there on his last scratch. I had 10 different dogmen from the Northeast call me when it was over saying that he was the gamest dog they had ever seen in their lives (Brooklyn Knights, LeFonze, Latino Ray, etc.).
When Blackrock Kennels' El Nazi (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=827) won BIS in Mexico on a huge card, he got his entire face/muzzle/upper palate eat off to the eyes, and still never stopped trying. I had Evolution's brother Atown (whom I can't stand and who can't stand me) email me saying that dog was the gamest he ever saw in his life--and took so much abuse it made Atown question his involvement in the dog game.
When Eloheem's Loki (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11136) was matched into Gr Ch Chevy dying of lymphatic cancer, he got totally outclassed and was done by :40 ... and yet lasted almost to the 2-hour mark, taking Chevy longer than any dog ever had on nothing but the fact Loki wouldn't stop living or scratching. In fact, Gr Ch Chevy turned from a down and dying dog because he just couldn't kill Loki.
When my average Pretty Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10137) was matched into Rockbottom and MPits, at only 16 months of age, and had never even been bumped, let alone schooled, he still won in 2:42 on nothing but heart, and again scratched to a standing ovation and had the owner of Fastlane Registry running home to get his med box to save him he was so impressed with PB's gameness.
I mean, I could give you a roster of when the average dogs of mine got matched, they STILL win on nothing but guts, rugged durability, and absolute gameness ... and even when they lose, they *always* take whatever dog they're with a longer distance than any other dog they faced. And since they have consistently done this for two decades, I am pretty confident that my dogs will outlast and outscratch the competition damned near every time ... and if they can't win ... they'll still be the gamest dogs that opponent has ever seen and will take their mutts longer than any other opponent ever has.
So when the talented dogs of mine get matched, unless you have a truly extraordinary animal, you won't have a snowball's chance in hell of beating them, and it's not going to be "my" dogs losing on the scratch line ;)
Jack
Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up :pirate:
To bad you stopped breeding.
Officially Retired
09-30-2013, 06:46 AM
Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up :pirate:.
Exactly. That and the fact I made it my business to breed to exceptionally game dogs, from exceptionally-high-percentage litters, as my foundation.
Yea i see, so its actually the less talented and the dogs who weren't 100% ready to match, that shows you what the most talented dogs have as a back up :pirate:
To bad you stopped breeding.
I miss breeding dogs, mainly because of the dogs themselves, but I don't miss the stress of having a big yard ... nor the aggravation of hearing of people doing my little dogs wrong (feeding them shit food, making spot weight, etc.). There have been some really good folks who've gotten their hands on them though, and I do miss hearing the stories of how their dogs are progressing. What I miss the most is just watching world class athletes, the precision of their movements, and the excitement/eagerness on their faces when they're doing their thing.
Officially Retired
09-30-2013, 09:17 AM
:appl: Great post!
Thank you :hatsoff:
Officially Retired
09-30-2013, 09:32 AM
Standing by ready for the internet spanking,...here goes.
LOL, nah, you're too good a member, making too many good posts here, to "spank" :)
I do not doubt the 87% success rate nor the 95% game rate when just factoring in the dogs. My questions have always been how you found 8.7 out of every 10 persons that were knowledgeable enough to allow 9.5 out of every 10 dogs sold/placed/produced to be proven game without being &^%ked up along the way. Over the years I have seen lots of ignorance (ignorance being just not knowing any better) and stupidity. I always wondered about the screening process.
That is a helluva question. First of all, my numbers are easy: 87% of my dogs win, and ~95% win or "lose game" ...
And that is exactly WHY I am so proud of my dogs and my breeding program is the very fact that they can win in ANYBODY's hands, damned near. All over the world, in just about every state, Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, and Asia ... they either get off the plane and win (or they produce winners). Almost without exception.
And the reason is simply I breed for the solid foundation of excellence that CAN'T be ruined through human stupidity. If I am breeding for mouth, a bad keep can take away my mouth. This is why I never bred for mouth, it was too easy to lose and too easy to beat with other key traits. I breed for traits that are harder to get and keep, and IMPOSSIBLE TO LOSE, if there.
For example, NO keep can make a dog super-smart (he either is or he isn't); NO keep can make a dog naturally pace itself (the dog either has the sense to do this or it doesn't); NO keep can make a dog super-fast or athletic (he either is or he isn't). The only thing a keep can do is add muscular strength, muscular endurance, and stamina. That's it. The keep is NOT going to make the dog dead game, fast, smart, or super-athletic. These traits have to be there--and they will continue to be there even if the dog isn't right. They're also traits that the average dullard in dogs can't see and doesn't even look for. I would say the only thing 90% of people in dogs ever talk about is "roughness" and "mouth," and these are the first things to go in a blown keep. Yet a blown keep canNOT take away intelligence, natural aptitude/savvy, etc. Yet people laugh at things like "pacing itself," "smart," "stays out of trouble," "makes the opponent work/carry his weight," etc.
And that is why, in the end, my other handle is SmileWiper ... because, when the smoke clears, nearly 9x out of 10 the opponent who breeds for the simple Neanderthal traits of "mouth" and "roughness" winds up counting to 10 over his mutt when it faces one of mine :lol:
SAnd I say this because I have always believed across the board the dogs as whole are far better than they are given credit for because so many are crippled by their individual owners. I basically have more faith in the dogs than I do in man, sad, but true. (And I apologize for straying off topic). EWO
Absolutely. Which is why, as a breeder, I have had to breed dogs that can overcome virtually all forms of human stupidity. The trouble is, that can only go on for so long. You have people who (after a helluva win) will then continually match their dogs, without giving it proper rest ... or who continually spot weight ... or who continually feed shit food ... I mean, dogs are only human ... which is why the average owner almost always winds up losing their best animals at some point, and they don't have the sense to preserve them right with a proper breeding program. Very rarely do you get the whole package in an owner too.
So, ultimately, it can become an exercise in frustration and futility ...
TopShelfKennels
09-30-2013, 10:34 AM
Very good post guys!!
gameday
09-30-2013, 07:47 PM
I am not a fan of making it a stipulation upfront. It is a fine line between the sportsman aspect and the gambling aspect. If the other dog has stopped or been stopped and does not make his scratch I feel no obligation to show mine will. Mostly because if the other side has doubts about my dog after their dog has lost they have to pay to see him again. My concept at the show is not to prove my dog is game, or even find out if your dog is game, that should have been done long ago (will do a first time out on the cheap as a game check, but that is a different topic) at the show it is about winning. For me, it is a two man team. I can't ask him to do all that I ask of him, everything it takes to win, then when he wins, I ask him to do one more thing for nothing more than a display. The fruits of our labor must have a reward. EWO
awesome post!!!