stud dogs brood bitches and dog prizes in general. and the ""Justification"" in

[Limey Kennels]

Asking higher prices ..Tought i opend this topic, to get a debate going.

[CrazyRed]

Well we can debate, not sure about what. I'm a believer that a man's price is his price and just as the buyer has an option to pay or keep walking the man with the merchandise has the option to set his price where he wants. I feel you pay for what you want. I mean you might spend $300 10x to get some cheap pups and the guy even throws you a few pups so you only spent $3k to get between 10-15 dogs and you might have 10-15 turds. You could easily spend $1500-3500 on a pup and get a turd. I would say it's up to the person purchasing, if the stock is proven then your chances of getting something quality is very high. That $1500 pup or dog might turn out to be the best investment you ever made and make you back tens of thousands and he might be a dud. Each dog has opportunity but when you talk about "proof" then its world's apart. The guy charging 1500 might have great success and others have great success with his stock. The guy charging 300 might have success but others might not have the same success, does that mean his dogs arent worth it? No he just might be a better dogman or able to get more out of his dogs then anybody else. It is an option to buy or not to, so how can you bash.

[Officially Retired]

Well we can debate, not sure about what. I'm a believer that a man's price is his price and just as the buyer has an option to pay or keep walking the man with the merchandise has the option to set his price where he wants. I feel you pay for what you want. I mean you might spend $300 10x to get some cheap pups and the guy even throws you a few pups so you only spent $3k to get between 10-15 dogs and you might have 10-15 turds. You could easily spend $1500-3500 on a pup and get a turd. I would say it's up to the person purchasing, if the stock is proven then your chances of getting something quality is very high. That $1500 pup or dog might turn out to be the best investment you ever made and make you back tens of thousands and he might be a dud. Each dog has opportunity but when you talk about "proof" then its world's apart. The guy charging 1500 might have great success and others have great success with his stock. The guy charging 300 might have success but others might not have the same success, does that mean his dogs arent worth it? No he just might be a better dogman or able to get more out of his dogs then anybody else. It is an option to buy or not to, so how can you bash.


Good post.

The bottom line is a man can charge whatever he wants to charge, and people can pay it or not.

What might be "worth it" to one guy might not be to another. In my opinion, it is ALWAYS better to pay a little more for "expertise" than it is to try to save money buying from inexperience.

When I breed my own dogs, down from the same line I have been working with for 20-something years, and consistently producing high-percentages of winners/producers each time ... and I personally know every dog in the pedigree, what it has (what it lacks) and have a feel for what I am doing ... I would "like" to think that I have a better idea of what the heck I am going to get out of my pups than some guy who just bought 2 mix-bred dogs and bred them together :lol:

I am absolutely 100% confident that my pups are going to be within "the genetic ballpark" of what I am wanting to get MUCH more frequently, reliably, and consistently than some guy breeding 2 dogs he knows nothing about, genetically. I would bet my life on that. And I will damned sure be charging more for this genetic certainty I have with what I am doing ... and I will collect it too ... than someone playing guessing games with his "crosses" that he's experimenting with because "it looks good on paper" (to him, anyway).

I understand that not every pup comes out as planned. But I also understand that pups that are truly planned, and linebred on prepotent animals, come out closer to those plans (much more frequently) than will a hodgepodge of unrelated stuff being stuck together for the hell of it.

Any person with a couple of decades of successful breedings behind him, all back down from the same stock he's always been successful with, will simply have better odds of getting what he wants day-in and day-out than the average bandwagon-jumper will ... and anyone who doesn't believe, or understand, this simply knows nothing about breeding or genetics.

Jack

[EWO]

I would say it is Basic Economics 101. Although the seller can set the selling price only the buyer can dictate the value/worth (dollar amount) of the object being sold. He simply does that making the purchase.

Value is a lot like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. It only takes one buyer to 'justify' the seller's price, regardless if the masses think the opposite. The buyer has the option to meet the seller's asking price, negotiate or walk away. That process determines the dollar value of any object being sold.

In the dogs the higher the percentage of successes within a family/line/strain/breeder usually up that dollar amount. That dollar amount is always kept in check by the buyer.

If there were a standard, a hard line or solid measuring stick that was not relative or subjective it would be easier to say "X" amount of money should get "X" amount of dog. Unfortunately it is not that simple. Again the buyer is the 'check' in the process.

A slightly better topic would be to offer up some of the standards or measuring sticks people use to justify why they ask a certain amount and then couple that with those same standards as why someone would be willing to pay. Just an example (and sorry Jack, its your board, so you get the guinea pig role)

If I were looking for a Poncho dog I would be willing to go to the source for said Poncho dog and that would be Vise-Grip. Factoring in the family, the ancestry, the successes over time, the personal commitment and the percentages I would pay more for that Poncho dog. On the flip side, this Poncho dog's parent's siblings were sold as puppies and later bred. I would not pay the same for that puppy, although the breedings were the same/similar. Why? Maybe Vise Grip would have bred them a different way, maybe not even at all, but that is where I see value. The source.

So, for me, going to the source would be a factor in paying more, or justifying the seller's price by making the purchase. EWO

[Officially Retired]

I would say it is Basic Economics 101. Although the seller can set the selling price only the buyer can dictate the value/worth (dollar amount) of the object being sold. He simply does that making the purchase.

Value is a lot like beauty, it is in the eye of the beholder. It only takes one buyer to 'justify' the seller's price, regardless if the masses think the opposite. The buyer has the option to meet the seller's asking price, negotiate or walk away. That process determines the dollar value of any object being sold.

In the dogs the higher the percentage of successes within a family/line/strain/breeder usually up that dollar amount. That dollar amount is always kept in check by the buyer.

If there were a standard, a hard line or solid measuring stick that was not relative or subjective it would be easier to say "X" amount of money should get "X" amount of dog. Unfortunately it is not that simple. Again the buyer is the 'check' in the process.

A slightly better topic would be to offer up some of the standards or measuring sticks people use to justify why they ask a certain amount and then couple that with those same standards as why someone would be willing to pay. Just an example (and sorry Jack, its your board, so you get the guinea pig role)

If I were looking for a Poncho dog I would be willing to go to the source for said Poncho dog and that would be Vise-Grip. Factoring in the family, the ancestry, the successes over time, the personal commitment and the percentages I would pay more for that Poncho dog. On the flip side, this Poncho dog's parent's siblings were sold as puppies and later bred. I would not pay the same for that puppy, although the breedings were the same/similar. Why? Maybe Vise Grip would have bred them a different way, maybe not even at all, but that is where I see value. The source.

So, for me, going to the source would be a factor in paying more, or justifying the seller's price by making the purchase. EWO


Another insightful, intelligent post by EWO.

I see people breeding dogs of mine, that I would not breed together, all the time.

One of the primary things I look for in the dogs I keep is speed and athleticism. I can spot the athletes in a litter at a very early age. Their "stance" is almost always the same: very tight front paws, held close together, with the back legs spread apart a bit. They are light on their feet, they move with a clearly-superior grace, and these dogs just beam with precision, poise, and balance. I have had many well-schooled old-timers tell me they love the "stance" of my dogs overall ... because they see what I see in them.

And yet some of my dogs just aren't athletes. A few will come out with their elbows out, splayed front feet, or whatever ... and I will see people inbreeding on these unathletic dopes ... and I just don't understand WTH they're thinking. Sure, you can "use" a less-than-stellar athlete, if they're game (breeding back toward some kind of athleticism) ... but you don't inbreed on an unathletic dolt!

Anyway, if the key to breeding is selection ... then I would feel FAR more comfortable spending more money with a person who has consistently maintained quality in his line through repeatedly-good selections ... than I ever would buying "a cheap pup" from some bloke who has no idea what that really means :idea:

Jack


.

[ragedog10]

That sums it up pretty much. A higher price on a well bred animal coming off a well bred family coming from a breeder with consitent success with the family of dog, then yes a higher price is fine as it is this man life work made available. The problem is as Jack stated someone breeding two sub par dogs and charging high prices based on someone else hard work. That is happening all to often now a days but its up to the buyer to decide to pay or not plan simple. I cant put a value on someone else's dog, i can only choose to buy it or not its really that simple. Another thing people dont realize is how much it costs to maintain a healthy yard of bulldogs so that is factored into the price of a pup also. Yis Ole Man

[projectx]

Asking higher prices ..Tought i opend this topic, to get a debate going.

Limey as you started this justifiyingstud fees , i would like to ask you to justify the stud fee for kingpin and the overall cost that i estimate a prospective buyer would have to end up paying at least $6000 once they got thier female back from you without a gurantee of pups as breedings whether surgical or live dont always work so even if you give a refund on the stud fee , there would still be more than $3000 in other costs such as shipping vet fees which would not be refunded im sure .
The normal way most folks get their dogs bred is within their own country by either driving to the male or mybe nowadays they have fresh or frozen semen shipped , with the frozen costing a lot more as the shipping is expensive as the liquid nitrogen container has to be shipped both ways , but most folks i believe still do it the old fashioned way and take their female even if it means a long drive there and back , but the costs for fuel and maybe an overnight stay in a motel might add $300 to tha overall cost so its not to compare with what it wouyld cost to breed under your rules to kingpin.

The other thing i think we would like to know , is how you come to a price of $2.700 for the stud fee, as the dog is not a gr ch and evn if you can ask what you like , i believe there should be some overall reason as to why kingpin has such a high stud fee for a dog that has never done anything to merit the price, and if breeding to an aligator dog is what someone wants to do ,then in the usa htere are still some excellent and old aligator lines jsut as good and probably better and from working dogs that are no more than $1000 to $1500 and that goes for many ch and gr ch dogs from many other bloodlines also.

I know there are owners out there of some of the more popular winners that have charged very high stud fees , but they arec few and far between , with most working dogs falling within and much lower stud fee range than yours , and without the ristrictions you impose on who can breed to kingpin which means only the usa and canada or possibly the latin american countries but not hte whole of europe east or west , so that means no one can just drive to you and take a normal breeding they must incurr these extra costs on top of the stud fee which in itself is not realsitic even if the dog was a ch which he is not .

I feel that if a dogs stud fee is so high especially for a non working dog , then there should be some realistic price on the stud fee , as there are many well bred dogs which can be bred to for less than half yuor asking price and with minimal other costs to your main market which under yuor rules would be the usa and canada by and large.

Why you feel knigpin is worht more than $1000 stud fee would be nice to know , i cant beleive you will say becasue of how he is bred , as there are many other better bred dogs than kingpin with reasonable stud fees , so i am curious to know your reason for your fee, especially when the econmy is bad and like many ohter things in times like these people dont have the kind of money your are expecting them to pay to breed to your dog .
The appox total cost i feel would be broken down like this and i feel it would be a mintotal and could be as much as $2k more depending on shiping and vets fees which are not in the buyers control .
STUD FEE $2.7K
crate/rabiesshot/microchip vet cert $300
shipping both ways between $2k and $4k
vets fees min $1/2k

min total 6k could be as much as $7/8k

[projectx]

For the full advert and stud fee for knigpin you need to go to bulldogs at stud and look there .

[AmberLamps]

Projectx: settings, ignore list, add Limey Kennels and you get a nice message that says.. "This message is hidden because Limey Kennels is on your ignore list."

[Limey Kennels]

Projectx I do not have to justify myself. i was asking the forum members the question. you might whant to respond to the question.. and we take it from there

[projectx]

Projectx I do not have to justify myself. i was asking the forum members the question. you might whant to respond to the question.. and we take it from there

Hi limey , i think i responed in some detail, and you may not feel the need to justify what you ask in stud fees , but i feel that it would be of interest as to how you come to your stud fee considering all the points i raised in my post, and im sure the memebrs on here would like to know how you arrive at such a high stud fee compared to many other well known ch dogs and thats without the extra costs any prospective buyer of a stud from your dog would incurr in the extra fees i outlined .

[gabbagabbahey]

Regarding the liquid nitrogen container you had to hire,i have only recently been told of a much cheaper alternative which serves the same purpose,but is disposable & one way. So basically you buy the container & it is sufficient to keep the frozen at the right temperature for four or so days,giving ample time to reach the freezing bank.
Haven't looked further on this,but I would appreciate any input if anyone knows of or has used one.
Sounds very similar to the type which Jack mentions in his DVD,regarding using semen extender in fresh sperm.
Apologies for straying LK. If I get a short reply,then I will open a new thread

[projectx]

Regarding the liquid nitrogen container you had to hire,i have only recently been told of a much cheaper alternative which serves the same purpose,but is disposable & one way. So basically you buy the container & it is sufficient to keep the frozen at the right temperature for four or so days,giving ample time to reach the freezing bank.
Haven't looked further on this,but I would appreciate any input if anyone knows of or has used one.
Sounds very similar to the type which Jack mentions in his DVD,regarding using semen extender in fresh sperm.
Apologies for straying LK. If I get a short reply,then I will open a new threadHi , yes there are one way disposable containers called CRYODRUMS, and having looked into this in some detail i can tell you that they are not relaible for air shipping, they seem to be very easily broken and there have been many cases of semen ariving and they contianer has lost its capacity to keep it frozen. The people who i talked to said that they would only use it for ground shipping ,but for any air shipping and to be sure your semen arrives safely to use the dry shippers that usually need shipping back to the semen center they came from .The one way disposable containers are in theory supposed to do the job , but doing my research i found out that there have been many case were the containers failed .

BelOW are so,e reports from a people using the disposable containers , and as in this case many vets and facilties that store and ship frozen semen will not use the disposable containers for the same reasons outlined below .That said if you want to take a chance and the semen is not rare or expensive , maybe trying the disposable could be a more cost effective way to go , but i personally decided to take the hit of the shipping on the dry shipper both ways as the semen was not going to be available again .

BELOW ARE SOME REPORTS FORM USER OF THE CRYODRUM

My repro. vet feels the same way about them as Sunnydays' does. She had an entire shipment of a client's semen lost when the disposable shattered and also doesn't like the fact that the semen is exposed to ambient temperature as she removes it. She will no longer accept semen sent in a disposable.

May. 5, 2010, 05:24 AM
Just in reference to the few threads about Cryodrums... we just had another shipment go bad. A new Cryodrum, filled as per instructions to the correct weight etc. failed to hold and thawed out 8 straws of semen that was sent overnight.

It didn't even hold for 20 hours! It's the 2nd time this has happened to us (I was told the first time was a 1 in 1,000,000; and we haven't sent 999,999 shipments since then!), and heralds the end of us using Cryodrums... it's a shame because the product is a good idea, but that lack of reliability makes it impossible for us to continue using them.

Just our experience and my opionion, of course!


I have had five shipments with Cryodrum in the last 12 months. Two have worked, one of which was because I took it from the National Stud stocking centre to the UK in my car. The other three have lost 6 doses of Flipper d'Elle and two doses of Mighty Magic (two of these shipments Jamie was talking about above).

Yes, they were a good idea and are manufactured about 20 minutes from my farm, but I now cannot trust them with 3 out of five going wrong.

As well, my vet says she worries because the internal container is of an easily shattered material (as in some drinking thermoses), and she doesn't think it could withstand falls or hard knocks. I would be reluctant to use, unless I was carrying it in my own car for a trip of some hours.

I hope this helps you , but my advice is use the dry shipper unless your able to ground ship , but most semen banks dont like to ship frozen semen unless they use a dry shipper so if the semen you want to ship to your local repro vet is one of those that wont use anything else but a dry shipper .
I know ground shipping a dry shipper is not so expensive as air shipping and if you are looking to ship inside the usa the ground shipping cost is not like someone having to dry ship internationaly which can cost upwards of $1000 to $2000 plus .

Ps the type mentioned in ca jacks dvds are fresh semen containers there cheap to buy but only for fresh chilled semen not frozen ok.

[The Old Timer.]

Asking higher prices ..Tought i opend this topic, to get a debate going.

why don't you get the debate going by answering the question project is asking you ! or are you waiting for someone to jump to your defense because you cant get your head around it yourself, we are all ears.

[splash747]

JMO...beating a dead horse, negotiate if you like or move on.

[Limey Kennels]

Hi limey , i think i responed in some detail, and you may not feel the need to justify what you ask in stud fees , but i feel that it would be of interest as to how you come to your stud fee considering all the points i raised in my post, and im sure the memebrs on here would like to know how you arrive at such a high stud fee compared to many other well known ch dogs and thats without the extra costs any prospective buyer of a stud from your dog would incurr in the extra fees i outlined .

Projecx it is obviusly that watever i am going to state that you wil find a way to argue as it is seems to be a personal thing for you. Please tell us your justification when your putting a high stud sirvis out, if you do and why and when.
I akt because i like to know what peoples motivations are putting out a high$$ stud fees.. .

[Limey Kennels]

why don't you get the debate going by answering the question project is asking you ! or are you waiting for someone to jump to your defense because you cant get your head around it yourself, we are all ears. chek post above..

[The Old Timer.]

chek post above..

don't you answer me with check post above, answer the question or are you waiting for someone to come to your defense,

[Limey Kennels]

I awnser the way i whant. i stick to the topic and let no one lure me into a pissing contest....

[projectx]

Projecx it is obviusly that watever i am going to state that you wil find a way to argue as it is seems to be a personal thing for you. Please tell us your justification when your putting a high stud sirvis out, if you do and why and when.
I akt because i like to know what peoples motivations are putting out a high$$ stud fees.. .

Hi limey , i dont see were you think that whatever you say i will find a way to argue witj you i think i was very clear in my post, and i can see by the reaction of others that they also feel that it would be interesting to hear why you feel the stud fee on kingpin is worth the $2.700 fee ,plus the extra costs associated with a breeding as you will only accept breeding from outside the whole of europe ,which means anyone wanting to breed to knigpin would neeed to spend at least $6000 and maybe upt0 $8000 depending on shipping and unforseen vets costs etc , so i think as this is not a normal circumstance and cost for breeding to a dog , especially a dog with no record of any kind ,that maybe you could explain it to us as so far it looks like you are avoiding having to answer ,and the only reason i can think of would be becasue you really cant justify the stud fee and the rules you lay out for breeding to him so you decide to avoid answering at all.

On another point about the rules you impose to breed to knigpin as to who can breed to him and what females etc, i know as in the case of the stud fee you can impose whatever rules you wish ,but i say this to you and others who also impose various restrictions as to who and what etc when studing out thier dog, it is a false feeling to think that if you let out your blood close to you that you will somehow loose the monopoly on that blood, as especially today with all the ways of geting a breeding to a dogs via fresah or frozen semen apart from just buying a live pup or dog from someone who may already have had a dog or breeding from a breeder like you , it seems futile to impose restrictions like that at all, and secondly if a dog is a true producer he should produce with any female no matter how she is bred , that is what a prepotent dog is and of course you would expect a dog to produce even better with similarly bred or family bred females , but we should not be afriad to breed to whoever has the money to want a breeding to any female, as this allows the dog to show his true producing potency and if he is a true prepotent producer then that will also increase his chance of having a very good producing record ,so those breeders should believe more in the blood they use and stud out,and not be affraid to let anyone breed a female which may not be bred the way you or they like to him for fear that afterwards the word is that the dog isnt a producer , and only try to breed to females you or they think will enhance his record ,this type of thinking in breeding should be saved for our own personal breedings , but i say breed them females and lets see if a dog is a true prepotent male or just average and not panic if its the latter turns out to be true.

[The Old Timer.]

A few guys I knew always set real high stud fees on one or two of there dogs, at present I do the same with one dog I have now, some times you just like to keep the years / or a life time of your hard work to your self, some guys would take the service of the dog if they got it for a few hundred $, but when you set a real high price you don't fall out with guys by refusing them the stud, the stud dog is there but at a price they wont pay. to be honest if limeys stud dog was a producing dog and sires large litters of pups I myself would pay that fee, if its some thing I wanted, the bottom line if you paid 2700 for the service, and you got 10 pups or more in the litter, each pup would cost 270 or less, i think limey is correct in putting any price he wants on his dog, its a take it or leave it situation, on the other hand when you set a real high stud fee you or letting others believe you have some thing special - it makes a good sales pitch , and gets guys talking about your stud dog or line of dogs you keep, and then an old saying comes to my head also a " fool and his money are easy parted."

[projectx]

A few guys I knew always set real high stud fees on one or two of there dogs, at present I do the same with one dog I have now, some times you just like to keep the years / or a life time of your hard work to your self, some guys would take the service of the dog if they got it for a few hundred $, but when you set a real high price you don't fall out with guys by refusing them the stud, the stud dog is there but at a price they wont pay. to be honest if limeys stud dog was a producing dog and sires large litters of pups I myself would pay that fee, if its some thing I wanted, the bottom line if you paid 2700 for the service, and you got 10 pups or more in the litter, each pup would cost 270 or less, i think limey is correct in putting any price he wants on his dog, its a take it or leave it situation, on the other hand when you set a real high stud fee you or letting others believe you have some thing special - it makes a good sales pitch , and gets guys talking about your stud dog or line of dogs you keep, and then an old saying comes to my head also a " fool and his money are easy parted."

Hi oldtimer ,i dont disagree with anyone setting a high price for a stud fee, and you mentioned that some guys want to keep a lifetime of there work to themselves or at least set a high stud fee , but i think that an average stud fee if you just look at the stud offers on this forum and on others is between $500 to $1000 maybe $1500 and some of those are well bred dogs who have either a hunt record or a producing record or even both, yes there some higher but they all have record in one or both departments but the average is between the csots i mentioned on the whole.

I think that limeys kingpin does not fall into the category of dog to demand the $2.700 stud fee which seems to me on the very high side, and thats wihtout the extra costs involved to anyone wanting a breeding under limeys rules, as i have outlined an appoximate cost of betwwen $6000 and maybe upto $8000 which you may not have seen , which would make your cost per pup theory of a litter of ten pups rising to between $600 and $800 per pup, but that is only if the female actuall gets pregnant and both natrual breedings and surgical inseminations are not always a gurantee of getting pups , so the reality is that to spend between $6000 and maybe $8000 and maybe not even get your female pregnant ,which could happen , and then have the hassle of getting your money back as by this time your female would have been shipped back to you so its not like you can just get in your car and drive to get another breeding for free is it.
The reality is that untill any female has her pups we can all make scenarios as what could be the case, so to me its just a case of untill the pups hit the ground its all speculation as to what is value for money, and i dont think im being hard on limey saying that i feel that his stud fee alone without even adding the extra costs to a buyer is just way over the top for his dogs achievments as yet.

I think maybe you had a good point in that some people are salesmen and by setting a high price on a dog might make newbies think they need to get some of it, but im not into that kind of dogman , thats the kind i stay away from, especially if the dog has yet to do anything to merit the high stud fee in the first place, that to me is the type of thing a peddler does .

The other point is that if we all never let out any dogs none of us would ever have had any dont you think, like i said before its a nonsense to think that even if you think you have something so special that no one else can have it , by the sheer fact the you yourself must have got them from someone in the first place means that to think like that is futile, as no one man has a monopoly on any bloodline ,not even limey ,and they never had not even before the world got on the internet which opened up to them stud dogs and bloodlines to anyone around the world to buy , so whehter its eli or aligator or mayfield or redboy etc etc and many other much sought after bloodlines , some of which are not in high numbers like others are , to think that any one man or kennel can have a monopoly on that bloodline is wrong , as there is always more than one man who will have that line no matter how low in numbers they are or diifcult to get , there has always been more than one man involved in any one line of dogs , that is how they keep the line going in a pure or tight bred family , into the future ,and the death of any line is when one man is in total control of it ,and thankfully as in the case of limeys kingpin to use as an example , the aligator line is still being bred and actually in a more pure family than even limeys , just like other hard to get blood of yesteryear , its just like anything else , you have to do your research eventhough you may have been looking for that stud or female from a bloodline that today seems extinct , i have found that with a little paticience you can still find bloodlines that most of us would give our right nut for to have as a breeding pool today.

The ohter thing you metioned that i agree with is that a fool and his money are easily parted, and if anyone can justify to themselves the overall cost of a getting a breeding to limeys kingpin, especially if your in the usa where like i said there are many good tight aligator dogs being bred , were if you get a stud or pup you may pay $1000 $1500 , then to me anyone taking a stud from kingpin , or any other dog that would cost them that kind of overall price ,when they have as good or better at home for a fraction of the cost , then they truely are a fool who maybe needs to be parted with his or her money just so they learn a valuable lesson from it , as sometimes thats the only way a person can learn when the get their ass burned.

[Officially Retired]

I think that limeys kingpin does not fall into the category of dog to demand the $2.700 stud fee which seems to me on the very high side, and thats wihtout the extra costs involved to anyone wanting a breeding under limeys rules, as i have outlined an appoximate cost of betwwen $6000 and maybe upto $8000 which you may not have seen , which would make your cost per pup theory of a litter of ten pups rising to between $600 and $800 per pup, but that is only if the female actuall gets pregnant and both natrual breedings and surgical inseminations are not always a gurantee of getting pups , so the reality is that to spend between $6000 and maybe $8000 and maybe not even get your female pregnant ,which could happen , and then have the hassle of getting your money back as by this time your female would have been shipped back to you so its not like you can just get in your car and drive to get another breeding for free is it.
The reality is that untill any female has her pups we can all make scenarios as what could be the case, so to me its just a case of untill the pups hit the ground its all speculation as to what is value for money, and i dont think im being hard on limey saying that i feel that his stud fee alone without even adding the extra costs to a buyer is just way over the top for his dogs achievments as yet.

I am not coming to anyone's defense, per se, but my questions are these:

Why do you care what Limey does, and how (in any way) does it affect you?

Jack

[projectx]

I am not coming to anyone's defense, per se, but my questions are these:

Why do you care what Limey does, and how (in any way) does it affect you?

JackHi jack , this thread is about the cost of stud fees and the justification of them , or at least the discussion as to what is expected from prospective stud dogs etc and i think my posts about the cost in the case of limeys kingpin is a reasonable one ,given not just the stud fee but the very high extra costs that would be incurred going forward with it.

You ask me what do i care what limey does , and how does it affect me , which seems to me to be a defense of limey and i must assume that you feel that his stud fee and overall cost to breed to his dog which has no record in any department as yet is a fair and normal cost ,and requires no one asking limey or any other stud dog owner who expects any prospective taker of a high stud fee to their expensive stud dog to ever ask them why they are asking such a high stud fee comapred to the normal fees that i have stated before in other posts of between $500 to$1500 comapred to limeys base stud fee of $2.700 plus the extra costs , especially for a dog that has yet to prove itself in any way , and that you feel my question as to why he feels the stud fee and extra costs associated with it are questions that should never be asked by anyone and to just be accepted without question ,which would seem a foolish thing to do in any walk of life when making a purchase including the dogs.

I hope i have assumed incorrectly in your feeling that way , as i would have though that you of all people would also want to have some balance in this field of stud fees and costs, and like any other product we can buy , the costs are normally associsted with a products quality , and in the case of bulldogs that normally means a stud fee is relative to what the stud dog has done in either of the two fields we tend to feel merits some acknowledgement in the game , of which as far as i can see and unless limey tells us otherwise his dog has yet to achieve anything in either of those two fields as yet to merit even the normal range top end stud fee of $1500 let alone $2.700 plus the extras . Yes he can ask what he likes , and maybe instead of defending him he should maybe defend himself if you or he feel my question is so unfair on him ,in so far as it would be of interest to know why he feels his dog and the very high overal cost to take a breeding to his dog is somnething we should be thinking about doing , rather than keeping quiet ,which seems to me to say that he cant really give an answer as to why the cost should be so high apart form the fact that it is very high and just keep quiet and dont ask awkward questions.

I myself jack like to fight my own battles ,and you will never find me pm ing you to complain about another member who posts or says very normal things about me , and asking you to do sometihng about it, as some people have a name for that already on other forums , so much so that they have been booted out of them for always crying to the mods about other people as they cant answer basic questions when put to them, and the forums just had enough of that guy and told him to go away and grow some balls instead of always crying to them to help him, i will never do that and as i say maybe limey should give us an insight into the stud fee for his dog, maybe we can understand why , rather than have you defend him and ask me the questions you asked me, i think maybe asking limey the same questions i asked him and others have would have made more sense given the extreme cost anyone would have had to incurr taking a breeding to his dog comapred to other much more acknowleged dogs at a much lower cost in stud fee alone , would have been a question lots of us would like to,know. Had he asked a stud fee within the normal range , then i would never have said a word ,albeit still very costly as to the extra costs , but at least it would have been a stud fee with reasonable bounds ,which quite frankly his is not at the moment and im surprised you dont feel it in some way needs some kind of explanation on limeys part , but you ask me something about why im asking limey about his stud fee, mmm doesnt seem to make sense to me unless your taking sides ,which im sure your not jack, as in the interests of knowledge an answer from limey himself would im sure enlighten us all in one way or another .

[Officially Retired]

Hi jack , this thread is about the cost of stud fees and the justification of them , or at least the discussion as to what is expected from prospective stud dogs etc and i think my posts about the cost in the case of limeys kingpin is a reasonable one ,given not just the stud fee but the very high extra costs that would be incurred going forward with it.

Hi Project X;

Honestly, I don't need you to recapitulate "what the thread is about" for me :lol:

You may think your going on-and-on-and-on about the cost of Limey's stud is "reasonable," but IMO it would be more reasonable just to move on and not pay for something you think is too high.

You sound more hostile than reasonable.




You ask me what do i care what limey does , and how does it affect me , which seems to me to be a defense of limey and i must assume that you feel that his stud fee and overall cost to breed to his dog which has no record in any department as yet is a fair and normal cost ,and requires no one asking limey or any other stud dog owner who expects any prospective taker of a high stud fee to their expensive stud dog to ever ask them why they are asking such a high stud fee comapred to the normal fees that i have stated before in other posts of between $500 to$1500 comapred to limeys base stud fee of $2.700 plus the extra costs , especially for a dog that has yet to prove itself in any way , and that you feel my question as to why he feels the stud fee and extra costs associated with it are questions that should never be asked by anyone and to just be accepted without question ,which would seem a foolish thing to do in any walk of life when making a purchase including the dogs.

I find it amusing that you didn't answer my question, yet you demand that Limey answer yours ;)

I am defending Limey's position mainly because I think your attack is hostile and needless.

Again, if you don't like Limey's price, simply don't pay for it. That is what rational, reasonable people do. Me, I see studs all the time that have shitty structure, pedigrees I would never have bred, possess traits I would never want to have, with splayed feet, tongues hanging out like they're going to collapse from exhaustion from just standing there, and I don't write big long posts about "why" I would never pay to breed to that POS. Instead, I just move on to something else.

I also see stud dogs that look interesting, but never bother to breed to them. Mostly because I am happy with what I have (or had, back when I was breeding dogs).

Your greatest blunder in thinking is the belief that Limey's dog is "unproven." I have heard nimrods tell this same thing to me about "my" studs, too, back when I was breeding dogs. I have heard so many people make comments on something that they have never seen go with "their" eyes ... and these idiots believe that their eyes are ALL eyes ... but they're not. They think because "they" haven't seen something go, that means that "I" haven't either. I mean, they really think that I am breeding something "unproven" ... just because it hasn't been proven "to them." As if I give a shit about "them" in my decision-making. Time and again, I have heard the same shit spewed at me, by people whose dogs (and opinions on dogs) couldn't kiss my ass ... and these people likewise operate under the insanity that just because "they" don't know how good my dog is somehow means I don't know how good my dog is :lol:

The real truth is you have no freaking idea how good Limey's dog is, or isn't. Period.
Maybe this dog proved a shitload to Limey. Maybe this dog is the best damned dog he's ever seen in his life, and he is pricing it accordingly.
Or maybe the dog is an untouched wonder with no ability. I don't know. You don't know.

But at the end of the day, the word "proven" is a meaningless word in your context. I could go on for pages about dogs mine have faced that were "proven" ... "proven fastlane winners" from "proven ROM" producers ... and yet my dogs whipped their ass, and stopped these "great proven dogs" cold ... all the while my dogs were out of studs and bitches that "no one else" has seen but me. So, really, all of that so-called "proof" doesn't mean shit.




I hope i have assumed incorrectly in your feeling that way , as i would have though that you of all people would also want to have some balance in this field of stud fees and costs, and like any other product we can buy , the costs are normally associsted with a products quality , and in the case of bulldogs that normally means a stud fee is relative to what the stud dog has done in either of the two fields we tend to feel merits some acknowledgement in the game , of which as far as i can see and unless limey tells us otherwise his dog has yet to achieve anything in either of those two fields as yet to merit even the normal range top end stud fee of $1500 let alone $2.700 plus the extras . Yes he can ask what he likes , and maybe instead of defending him he should maybe defend himself if you or he feel my question is so unfair on him ,in so far as it would be of interest to know why he feels his dog and the very high overal cost to take a breeding to his dog is somnething we should be thinking about doing , rather than keeping quiet ,which seems to me to say that he cant really give an answer as to why the cost should be so high apart form the fact that it is very high and just keep quiet and dont ask awkward questions.

You a$$ume incorrectly.

I don't care what anyone else charges for a stud fee.

I will never breed to anyone else's studs, but my own. The only exception would be to a trusted dogman-friend, whose dog I had seen with my own eyes, and/or whose opinion on a dog I respected. And I would invariably be offered to breed to the dog for free. But I would still rather breed to my own stud dog 99x out of 100.




I myself jack like to fight my own battles ,and you will never find me pm ing you to complain about another member who posts or says very normal things about me , and asking you to do sometihng about it, as some people have a name for that already on other forums , so much so that they have been booted out of them for always crying to the mods about other people as they cant answer basic questions when put to them, and the forums just had enough of that guy and told him to go away and grow some balls instead of always crying to them to help him, i will never do that and as i say maybe limey should give us an insight into the stud fee for his dog, maybe we can understand why , rather than have you defend him and ask me the questions you asked me, i think maybe asking limey the same questions i asked him and others have would have made more sense given the extreme cost anyone would have had to incurr taking a breeding to his dog comapred to other much more acknowleged dogs at a much lower cost in stud fee alone , would have been a question lots of us would like to,know. Had he asked a stud fee within the normal range , then i would never have said a word ,albeit still very costly as to the extra costs , but at least it would have been a stud fee with reasonable bounds ,which quite frankly his is not at the moment and im surprised you dont feel it in some way needs some kind of explanation on limeys part , but you ask me something about why im asking limey about his stud fee, mmm doesnt seem to make sense to me unless your taking sides ,which im sure your not jack, as in the interests of knowledge an answer from limey himself would im sure enlighten us all in one way or another .

You have a serious boundary disorder. You not only think Limey should "do as you do," you now think that I should pick my fights "as you would" too. This is a recurring insanity on your part, thinking that everyone else should "do as you do," so let me clarify two things for you:


1) I don't care what "you" do; I will fight in whatever battles I choose and I don't need your permission to enter in to any fray, ever.
2) Limey doesn't care about what "you" think stud fees will be either. He has the right to charge what he wants on stud services to his stud, period.

In the end, I will agree that all of your "reasons" for stud fees being a certain price ARE reasons ... but they are only reasons for YOU not to breed to Limey's stud dog. Nothing more. If someone is into Limey's bloodline, and trusts his opinion on a dog, then they will breed to the dog. And guess what? Limey can also choose to lower his fee for the right person too.

Or, everyone may agree with you, and Limey may never get a single person to pay the money, and therefore he will never breed outside his yard.

But NONE of this has anything to do with you or your opinion. The only way it affects you is if you let it.

If you charge what you want for your studs, and pay only what you're willing to pay for an outside stud, you will have a much healthier outlook than lamenting page-after-page over some stud whose price point is higher than what you want to pay.

Jack

.

[R2L]

I stopped caring for quiet some time now. I think no one needs to justify anything.

The only thing i find shameful once in a while is that well bred pups are being sold to people with money regardless who or what they are. This is also none of my business but if i would let something go in the first place, i would personally rather give a pup for free to someone who i think can make me proud then cashing x000 $

[Officially Retired]

I stopped caring for quiet some time now. I think no one needs to justify anything.


Agreed.





The only thing i find shameful once in a while is that well bred pups are being sold to people with money regardless who or what they are. This is also none of my business but if i would let something go in the first place, i would personally rather give a pup for free to someone who i think can make me proud then cashing x000 $

The most shameful thing in the world is worrying about what other people do.

When you sell dogs for a living, money comes first.

That said, I have turned down $$$ from people I knew were pure scum, but have sold dogs to all kinds of dogmen: from total beginners to some of the winningest kennels out there. Almost none of them can keep a dog alive for life, no matter who they are. But a few have. Any already good dogman who gets dogs from me uses them for breeding into their own line. Many beginners buy dogs from me to breed them and develop their own lines too. I would rather sell a dog for breeding and building than to be used as a toy.

Invariably, time-and-again, the best buyers are relative (not total) beginners ... who've learned enough of the ropes to have some sense ... but who still haven't "made it" ... but they buy with truly good intentions and then they get out there and whip top dogmen with the dogs they get from me (or off of the breedings they made using my dogs).

Jack

[R2L]

You have to be strong to grant someone one of your dogs and see them fuck up or use them as models/coachpatatos

[Officially Retired]

You have to be strong to grant someone one of your dogs and see them fuck up or use them as models/coachpatatos

Everyone has fucked up. The difference is, was it a mistake, or intentional recklessness.

That said, I would rather see someone use one of my dogs as a "model" or a stud dog ... so at least the dog has a good life ... than see someone fuck it up, feed it shit food, or keep it in lousy conditions.

The truth is, if I didn't sell dogs, I would never have been able to breed as many generations-deep into my own line as I have ... never have been able to do as many experimental breedings as I have ... never have learned as much as I have about the truths and myths about line-/inbreeding first hand ... never have seen my dogs kick as much ass all over the world as I have ... nor been able to becomee the expert on breeding as I am now.

If I kept every pup I bred, from youth to old age, I would hardly have any breeding experience at all.

So there is a flipside to everything ....

Jack

[projectx]

Hi Project X;

Honestly, I don't need you to recapitulate "what the thread is about" for me :lol:

You may think your going on-and-on-and-on about the cost of Limey's stud is "reasonable," but IMO it would be more reasonable just to move on and not pay for something you think is too high.

You sound more hostile than reasonable.





I find it amusing that you didn't answer my question, yet you demand that Limey answer yours ;)

I am defending Limey's position mainly because I think your attack is hostile and needless.

Again, if you don't like Limey's price, simply don't pay for it. That is what rational, reasonable people do. Me, I see studs all the time that have shitty structure, pedigrees I would never have bred, possess traits I would never want to have, with splayed feet, tongues hanging out like they're going to collapse from exhaustion from just standing there, and I don't write big long posts about "why" I would never pay to breed to that POS. Instead, I just move on to something else.

I also see stud dogs that look interesting, but never bother to breed to them. Mostly because I am happy with what I have (or had, back when I was breeding dogs).

Your greatest blunder in thinking is the belief that Limey's dog is "unproven." I have heard nimrods tell this same thing to me about "my" studs, too, back when I was breeding dogs. I have heard so many people make comments on something that they have never seen go with "their" eyes ... and these idiots believe that their eyes are ALL eyes ... but they're not. They think because "they" haven't seen something go, that means that "I" haven't either. I mean, they really think that I am breeding something "unproven" ... just because it hasn't been proven "to them." As if I give a shit about "them" in my decision-making. Time and again, I have heard the same shit spewed at me, by people whose dogs (and opinions on dogs) couldn't kiss my ass ... and these people likewise operate under the insanity that just because "they" don't know how good my dog is somehow means I don't know how good my dog is :lol:

The real truth is you have no freaking idea how good Limey's dog is, or isn't. Period.
Maybe this dog proved a shitload to Limey. Maybe this dog is the best damned dog he's ever seen in his life, and he is pricing it accordingly.
Or maybe the dog is an untouched wonder with no ability. I don't know. You don't know.

But at the end of the day, the word "proven" is a meaningless word in your context. I could go on for pages about dogs mine have faced that were "proven" ... "proven fastlane winners" from "proven ROM" producers ... and yet my dogs whipped their ass, and stopped these "great proven dogs" cold ... all the while my dogs were out of studs and bitches that "no one else" has seen but me. So, really, all of that so-called "proof" doesn't mean shit.





You a$$ume incorrectly.

I don't care what anyone else charges for a stud fee.

I will never breed to anyone else's studs, but my own. The only exception would be to a trusted dogman-friend, whose dog I had seen with my own eyes, and/or whose opinion on a dog I respected. And I would invariably be offered to breed to the dog for free. But I would still rather breed to my own stud dog 99x out of 100.





You have a serious boundary disorder. You not only think Limey should "do as you do," you now think that I should pick my fights "as you would" too. This is a recurring insanity on your part, thinking that everyone else should "do as you do," so let me clarify two things for you:


1) I don't care what "you" do; I will fight in whatever battles I choose and I don't need your permission to enter in to any fray, ever.
2) Limey doesn't care about what "you" think stud fees will be either. He has the right to charge what he wants on stud services to his stud, period.

In the end, I will agree that all of your "reasons" for stud fees being a certain price ARE reasons ... but they are only reasons for YOU not to breed to Limey's stud dog. Nothing more. If someone is into Limey's bloodline, and trusts his opinion on a dog, then they will breed to the dog. And guess what? Limey can also choose to lower his fee for the right person too.

Or, he may never get a single person to pay the money and therefore will never breed outside his yard.

But NONE of this has anything to do with you or your opinion. The only way it affects you is if you let it.

If you charge what you want for your studs, and pay only what you're willing to pay for an outside stud, you will have a much healthier outlook than lamenting page-after-page over some stud whose price point is higher than what you want to pay.

Jack

.

Hi jack , i think i answered your questions about my reasons, and i also said in my psots have said that limey and any other person can ask what they like for a stud fee, but when as in the case of limeys its seems an unreasonably high amount for an as yet un known perfomer /producer if at all outside of limeys yard ,then i feel it does make a hell of a difference to any stud fee asked for.

I dont disagree with you that a dog can be the best performer producer in the world , but if limeys was either , as in most cases he would make a point of telling it as is his stlye to do, as he is never shy in telling us of his dogs acomplishments and the only acopmlishment he said about his kingpin dog in his ad was that gary hammonds said hes the best looking dog hes seen in 10 years , so it would seem that any acomplishments are only know inside his own yard if any.

I thought that you like myself and many others who over the years have talked to other men and friends about dogs, when you have what could be described as a high dollar stud fee or even high dollar pups which as in limeys stud are outside the normal stud fees for most dogs and especially as yet un proven dogs , at least to the outside world , and if your clients are the outside world , well then i think they deserve an answer to the question if the price seems high for the accomplishments of any given stud dog pup or brood bitch without a track record that is know outside of the yard it came from, as its easy to say what you like and claim what you like in your own back yard , not so easy when you play outside so it gets seen by at least a few others who arent all your friends.

Jack like you said yourself in most cases you would not breed outside your own yard, but if you did im sure regardless of the stud fee , but especially if it was a reasonably high one for what i regard in limeys kingpin as an unknown quantity yet, then you would probalby ask yourself if not the owner , why is the price so high on the dog , and most owners might tell you something you dont know that answers that question for you, but only if they open their mouth and actually tell you .

If the stud dog is a known performer/producer, then i feel like most people , that man can ask what he likes, and we may even justify to ourselves a $5000 stud fee if the dog has been there done it seen it etc , but i cant think of many top dogs whos stud fee would surpass limeys kingpin in cost even on the basic stud fee alone , so althoguh you can never gurantee what you will get for sure from either a dog of unknown potential or from one who has a track record in one or both departments, if like most people looking for a studdog had to pay top dollar for an unknown or known performing /producing dog and still stay within a bloodline that fit their ideals , im sure most would go for the known dog, as this is common sense.

Jack i also dont expect anyone to do what i do , i merely said that you will never find me crying to mods or you about boo hoo someone is asking me questions i cant answer please help boo hoo , i just said that i would want to fight my own corner , especially if i felt strongly about my bloodline i would surley want to give the person asking what i feel was a perfectly reasonable question to ask an answer ,and im sure if anyone asked you why you believed your dogs had the value you put on them , you would have an answer which im sure would consist of an answer which leaves them regardless of whehter they buy or not form you, with something to think about for the future, rather than saying nothing you may try to educate them as to why .

By the way you did tell me that if i wanted to say anything about limeys ad to start a thread in the genral forum and that there i could say what i liked , which i have , infact on the thread limey started , but know you seem to feel that even this is to much for poor limey to handle , so are we to believe that even a reasonable debate with no offensive name calling as by myself regarding this thread or any others were god forbid someone might ask i perfectly normal question is just to harsh or shall we just say that limey just like on his own forum decides what people can say as long as he likes it and doesnt make him feel nervous ? i for one hope that this is not the case as unless someone is abusing another member , and that a question is asked, that you of all people jack would not intervene in such an obviously biased way towards limey , in a forum which we all hope to learn from as its run by you jack, would be more biased towards understanding than banning people from feeling free to say what they feel , and let other members tell them whether they agree or disagree in some or all parts of their argument.

Just one last thing jack you say im being hostile towards limey ,but my language is calm and reasoned , whether you or others agree or disagree with my comments in this thread , i have not been agressive or hostile , but pardon me for saying so but you attack me and the language or temrinolgy you use , seems like your being pretty aggresive and attacking me for my posts , anyone would think limey owned this forum also which i hope to god he doesnt as that would mean just one view would be allowed on most things his view .

[Officially Retired]

Hi again;

I just got back from a weekend vacation, and have answered as much as I can, for now.

Ultimately, I personally don't care what anyone charges for a stud fee, but I agree that the question, "What is a valid price for a stud?", opens the forum up to some interesting dialogue, so I will attempt to participate more in a day or so when I have more time.

I have always felt that a stud service was one of THE most valuable tools a person can use to develop his program, and THE most undervalued service in the dog game, so I have a lot to say on the subject :mrgreen:

Jack

[R2L]

When you sell dogs for a living, money comes first.

I think for you quality came first and thats what separates you from 99,99% of the breeders who sell dogs for a living. So that was not directed towards you, you're right about what you couldn't have done if you were to selective.

[Officially Retired]

I think for you quality came first and thats what separates you from 99,99% of the breeders who sell dogs for a living. So that was not directed towards you, you're right about what you couldn't have done if you were to selective.


Thank you. I did everything I could to produce quality, from the dogs I bred, to creating a full set of instructions (my books) as to what to do with them ... from birth till death .... and even how to properly manage their gene pools, with selective breeding choices, to carry their genetic qualities indefinitely on into posterity. And I would say 85% don't listen :lol:

So, you were right, it is tough to watch people mess-up with the lives/happiness/potential of the dogs I've created ... but I've also got to meet a lot of cool people along the way too and see my dogs achieve a high level of success all over the world as well.

I've pretty much stopped my own involvement in breeding now, for legal as well as a lot of other reasons, but I remain extremely interested in these dogs ... so I am trying to create the best online resource of information on dogs through this website :)

Jack

[Pit Bull Committed]

Agreed.





The most shameful thing in the world is worrying about what other people do.

When you sell dogs for a living, money comes first.

That said, I have turned down $$$ from people I knew were pure scum, but have sold dogs to all kinds of dogmen: from total beginners to some of the winningest kennels out there. Almost none of them can keep a dog alive for life, no matter who they are. But a few have. Any already good dogman who gets dogs from me uses them for breeding into their own line. Many beginners buy dogs from me to breed them and develop their own lines too. I would rather sell a dog for breeding and building than to be used as a toy.

Invariably, time-and-again, the best buyers are relative (not total) beginners ... who've learned enough of the ropes to have some sense ... but who still haven't "made it" ... but they buy with truly good intentions and then they get out there and whip top dogmen with the dogs they get from me (or off of the breedings they made using my dogs).

Jack

Great post! :)

[Pit Bull Committed]

Everyone has fucked up. The difference is, was it a mistake, or intentional recklessness.

That said, I would rather see someone use one of my dogs as a "model" or a stud dog ... so at least the dog has a good life ... than see someone fuck it up, feed it shit food, or keep it in lousy conditions.

The truth is, if I didn't sell dogs, I would never have been able to breed as many generations-deep into my own line as I have ... never have been able to do as many experimental breedings as I have ... never have learned as much as I have about the truths and myths about line-/inbreeding first hand ... never have seen my dogs kick as much ass all over the world as I have ... nor been able to becomee the expert on breeding as I am now.

If I kept every pup I bred, from youth to old age, I would hardly have any breeding experience at all.

So there is a flipside to everything ....

Jack

Great to know! ;)

[dpitbull]

"The truth is, if I didn't sell dogs, I would never have been able to breed as many generations-deep into my own line as I have ... never have been able to do as many experimental breedings as I have ... never have learned as much as I have about the truths and myths about line-/inbreeding first hand ... never have seen my dogs kick as much ass all over the world as I have ... nor been able to becomee the expert on breeding as I am now.

If I kept every pup I bred, from youth to old age, I would hardly have any breeding experience at all.

So there is a flipside to everything ...."

This is a great post.

[evolutionkennels]

Thank you. I did everything I could to produce quality, from the dogs I bred, to creating a full set of instructions (my books) as to what to do with them ... from birth till death .... and even how to properly manage their gene pools, with selective breeding choices, to carry their genetic qualities indefinitely on into posterity. And I would say 85% don't listen :lol:

So, you were right, it is tough to watch people mess-up with the lives/happiness/potential of the dogs I've created ... but I've also got to meet a lot of cool people along the way too and see my dogs achieve a high level of success all over the world as well.

I've pretty much stopped my own involvement in breeding now, for legal as well as a lot of other reasons, but I remain extremely interested in these dogs ... so I am trying to create the best online resource of information on dogs through this website :)

Jack

As As a breeder , Jack has been able to establish a line of winning dogs, known as the vise grip line, or the cali Jack dogs. Produced countless winners champions, grand champions, and deadgame dogs like Nazi. ALL bloodlines have curs, it's just that the better lines have better percentages. One of the most difficult things to watch is a dumbass make mistakes with YOUR FAMILY OF DOGS. ONE OF THE MOST REWARDING IS TO SEE SOMEONE HAVE SUCCESS WITH YOUR STOCK. I am in the process of establishing the Machobuck line of dogs. I am extremely excited that my studs have champions each from the very first breedings done with them, with many more to come. But I've equally pulled my hair out. The other weekend a greenhorn tool a daughter of mr. Machobuck to 1:26 belly crawl flopping scratches to win pushing two pounds... No aftercare. Another in Jersey pushing 3 to 2:20 at 33 pounds with a 17 months old pup. It's enough to make you throw up. Another 2xer being done with a 26 blood count. So. .. It's a tough argument if such and such dog is a "producer" The bottom line is feed isn't free, you gotta sell some, but you also have to place some in experienced proven hands. We've recently taken a mentor approach to some newbies that are full of piss and vinegar, and have had good results.

[Wise]

Nice post evo! It's always good to see someone take a gentleman's approach to this shit and just say to each is own. I could never waste my time worrying about the next guys biz or trying to convince anyone of anything. You're only gonna get outta these dogs what you put in to them.....and a lot of times you don't get anything but a lesson. The thing that's sour about the climate of the game now, or maybe it's been that way, is, you could have a few guys that in general will have similar ways as it relates to their dog dealings but for some reason one or two get props as being "good Dogmen" while the others get knocked for the same reasons lol. I will never forget the second race I ever went to, this guy at the end of the race proceeded to talk down on the winning dog because he didn't like its owner then turns around and started making excuses for the loser because he looked up to the owner smh.

[Officially Retired]

Great post! :)


Great to know! ;)


This is a great post.

Thank you and glad you enjoyed the read ...







As As a breeder , Jack has been able to establish a line of winning dogs, known as the vise grip line, or the cali Jack dogs. Produced countless winners champions, grand champions, and deadgame dogs like Nazi. ALL bloodlines have curs, it's just that the better lines have better percentages. One of the most difficult things to watch is a dumbass make mistakes with YOUR FAMILY OF DOGS. ONE OF THE MOST REWARDING IS TO SEE SOMEONE HAVE SUCCESS WITH YOUR STOCK. I am in the process of establishing the Machobuck line of dogs. I am extremely excited that my studs have champions each from the very first breedings done with them, with many more to come. But I've equally pulled my hair out. The other weekend a greenhorn tool a daughter of mr. Machobuck to 1:26 belly crawl flopping scratches to win pushing two pounds... No aftercare. Another in Jersey pushing 3 to 2:20 at 33 pounds with a 17 months old pup. It's enough to make you throw up. Another 2xer being done with a 26 blood count. So. .. It's a tough argument if such and such dog is a "producer" The bottom line is feed isn't free, you gotta sell some, but you also have to place some in experienced proven hands. We've recently taken a mentor approach to some newbies that are full of piss and vinegar, and have had good results.

Thank you and great post yourself.

All I can say is I share your hopes ... and feel your pain ... and have no doubt that you'll achieve everything you set your mind to.

It would be a lot easier if people appreciated what they had and the thought/work that was put into it.

Cheers,

Jack

[Stella]

As As a breeder , Jack has been able to establish a line of winning dogs, known as the vise grip line, or the cali Jack dogs. Produced countless winners champions, grand champions, and deadgame dogs like Nazi. ALL bloodlines have curs, it's just that the better lines have better percentages. One of the most difficult things to watch is a dumbass make mistakes with YOUR FAMILY OF DOGS. ONE OF THE MOST REWARDING IS TO SEE SOMEONE HAVE SUCCESS WITH YOUR STOCK. I am in the process of establishing the Machobuck line of dogs. I am extremely excited that my studs have champions each from the very first breedings done with them, with many more to come. But I've equally pulled my hair out. The other weekend a greenhorn tool a daughter of mr. Machobuck to 1:26 belly crawl flopping scratches to win pushing two pounds... No aftercare. Another in Jersey pushing 3 to 2:20 at 33 pounds with a 17 months old pup. It's enough to make you throw up. Another 2xer being done with a 26 blood count. So. .. It's a tough argument if such and such dog is a "producer" The bottom line is feed isn't free, you gotta sell some, but you also have to place some in experienced proven hands. We've recently taken a mentor approach to some newbies that are full of piss and vinegar, and have had good results.



This is nice to hear.because of the state of things these days it is difficult for a greenhorn to get good sound guidance especially with all the dirtbag so called dogmen.If the wrong person gets a hold of a greenhorn it compounds stupidity.

[evolutionkennels]

This is nice to hear.because of the state of things these days it is difficult for a greenhorn to get good sound guidance especially with all the dirtbag so called dogmen.If the wrong person gets a hold of a greenhorn it compounds stupidity.

:-bd

[Pit Bull Committed]

This is nice to hear.because of the state of things these days it is difficult for a greenhorn to get good sound guidance especially with all the dirtbag so called dogmen.If the wrong person gets a hold of a greenhorn it compounds stupidity.

I agree with you...but I'll add that a smart greenhorn will know how to spot a dirtbag dogman quickly and stay away from them. Newbies that has no goals and standards will not tthrive. We can't aways blame the dirtbag dogman. :) Most newbies are monkey see monkey do...too in a rush to get dogs from just anyone and do something with them. Only a few will put in the effort and work...do their homework/research and strive for top class competition.

[Stella]

I agree with you...but I'll add that a smart greenhorn will know how to spot a dirtbag dogman quickly and stay away from them. Newbies that has no goals and standards will not tthrive. We can't aways blame the dirtbag dogman. :) Most newbies are monkey see monkey do...too in a rush to get dogs from just anyone and do something with them. Only a few will put in the effort and work...do their homework/research and strive for top class competition.


Yep.....also a careful greenhorn will struggle to get "in" with the right people simply because the right people are careful who they associate with....it can be tough for a good up and comer who may have great intentions etc.But can not find the right people to associate with.