View Full Version : how u proceed after collecting a forfeit on a condtioned dog or win in short order.
Wonder what people thoughts are, how to proceed best when you collected a forfeit on an already fully conditioned dog or have won in a really short order. You do find another weight for this dog out there the next day and you want to get into that asap, but there would be 8 weeks in between at least.
Curious
TopShelfKennels
11-08-2013, 07:08 PM
If the dog is ready and you want to do him agaim, why not take the weight.... either you want to try for number 2 or you dont, either way the choice is yours. It also never hurts to rest your dog and give him time to heal.
FrostyPaws
11-08-2013, 09:34 PM
It depends on how much damage the dog took in the win, and how well they took their keep. Ch.Banger won her first in 8 minutes. She took 2 weeks off, went back into keep, and 8 weeks later won in 44. I can't sit here and say that every dog MUST BE given two months of rest before a new keep. I don't think it's a bad idea as a general rule of thumb, but each dog is different, and it's up to you to know the dog well enough to really decide if it's good or bad for the dog.
As for forfeits, I would let my dog on something for 5-10 minutes to let out some of that steam, and at least have the dog associate all the work with the activity at the end.
Agree with the last statement. I am not going to keep him at peak for two weeks just to get him done but I am also not going to work the crap out of him and then just put him on the chain to get fattened/rested before the next keep. I would first look for something for him to do at his weight or a pound up to take advantage of the keep/time/his work. If that did not pan out within a couple of days I give him a short hard bump. Maybe even push a little to release the hell I hope I have pent up in him. Then rest/fatten before going straight back into keep. And the length of the rest totally depends on the individual dog.
If the #1 goes in short order and #2 makes itself available the only person that can answer that question is the owner of the dog. There is no one else that knows or should know the dog like the owner. There is no time chart that says a 20 minute win requires X amount of time off in between. No reference material available for that nor is there another dog man/woman that can provide that information. EWO
The Old Timer.
11-10-2013, 04:24 AM
It depends on how much damage the dog took in the win, and how well they took their keep. Ch.Banger won her first in 8 minutes. She took 2 weeks off, went back into keep, and 8 weeks later won in 44. I can't sit here and say that every dog MUST BE given two months of rest before a new keep. I don't think it's a bad idea as a general rule of thumb, but each dog is different, and it's up to you to know the dog well enough to really decide if it's good or bad for the dog.
As for forfeits, I would let my dog on something for 5-10 minutes to let out some of that steam, and at least have the dog associate all the work with the activity at the end.
why would you do that, every time you roll your dog you put him in danger of losing a fang, but each to there own.
Never been there before but based on feeling i would give 2 weeks rest, put them a pound higher and then continue where i would normally start in week 3.
I can see why you would give them a little bump, but i agree with The Old Timer also. When a dog has been down the road before he's expecting a fight and some will just be bouncing around all day.
FrostyPaws
11-10-2013, 07:21 PM
Everytime you do anything with a dog, you take a chance of something happening. You could put him on a swap out dog, etc. There are various ways to avoid things from happening. I'm not particularly concerned with losing a fang. The dog has 3 more to work with if that were to happen, and dogs with 3 teeth can win easily.
What about a first time out dog that's never been down that road before? All that work, and the dog isn't associating it with any outcome.
CrazyRed
11-11-2013, 06:23 AM
When faced with this situation, i had a dog that was possible in the best shape of her life and one of the best keeps i've done. I could say the dog was close or a little over 90%, and when collected the fit, i thought i would just rest her for 3 weeks and then find another swamp to chase some boars. Well what i end up doing was giving her 3 days off and then walking and running her lightly when i say lightly all i did was take a ball and throw it out to her for about hour or so.. did that for 3 days then rested her another 2 days.. then ball time for 2 days rested her for about 4 days then ball for 2 days and rested her for 5 days.. about a month had passed and she was still looking excellent and worked her way down to normal but still premium shape for most chain dogs.. Well when her # got called again i started working her and it was probably the best 3 first weeks i ever had because while she wasnt at peak, she was still in tip top shape but had time to flush her body out and rest down but remain in shape, and she was showing me that she could hit another level of training and i was concerned she would peak out too early but an old friend said, no she won't peak she just showing you how much better she can when you are doing more.. Well come time and it was the best 54 mins i ever seen and the gyp literally never blew one time.. (will admit i added jack's spring pole sessions) in my own keep and it worked out great.. If you're dog is in great shape, then a few cool down days with some light work over time won't hurt them while you still looking for a swamp to run in.. Also not sure what ingredients you use in your keep, but if you using things that are extreme on the body, then you might need a couple weeks to flush their body. Also not sure how much work your dogs get when they not in keep but a keep on a dog that is 15lbs over weight and gets work once a month is a little more stressful on a dog then a dog who gets some typical work throughout their lives. Have some good land where I'm at and dogs get some free run here, and others get a few mins on the mills inbetween walks so that for one they used to their tools and also keep some work in them.. I like dogs who enjoy working, whether its a slat, a carpet, free running pulling or swimming..
You are correct, There is a difference between a active fit and dog and an over weight dog. On the flip side there is a lot of difference between that same active and fit dog and a dog at peak. A dog can be lean, fit, active and in shape his entire life and that is a healthy lifestyle. A dog can't maintain peak for lengthy periods of time. A dog at peak for a length of time will quickly become stale. It needs to be some sort of release and rest after that much work. EWO
CrazyRed
11-12-2013, 05:42 AM
You are correct, There is a difference between a active fit and dog and an over weight dog. On the flip side there is a lot of difference between that same active and fit dog and a dog at peak. A dog can be lean, fit, active and in shape his entire life and that is a healthy lifestyle. A dog can't maintain peak for lengthy periods of time. A dog at peak for a length of time will quickly become stale. It needs to be some sort of release and rest after that much work. EWO Honestly speaking I've only had about 4 dogs i could say i thought were closed to being at Peak.. all 4 i would say were over 90%.. I've only known about 3 men who constantly got dogs to be as close to 100% every time they shaped one. They also been around dogs between 20-30 years in the dogs as well. What you said though made perfect sense because my buddy said until i learn how to peak at the perfect time, it's better to be close to peak then to get there and come out stale.. I understand exactly what you meant..
Officially Retired
11-12-2013, 07:07 AM
Good thread ...
That is very true. It is better to miss just under peak than to work thru peak only to come out flat or stale or over worked. Just my two cents.
The other side is that peak is such a fine line. When we see one that we think is peaked on a certain day/days there is always some question. Does he need just a little more or should I have stopped a little early? They are animals and those questions always go unanswered. I say that because there are so many variables between great conditioning and winning. The best shaped sub-par dog in the world is still a sub-par dog. The dog that is a run of the mill plug who happens to be in great shape will best his run of the mill plug counterpart, and even compete with a more talented hound.
Even though there is scientific data available, nutrition on the forefront, supplementation far better than years past I believe conditioning is still more art than science. Again, just my opinion. EWO
Honestly speaking I've only had about 4 dogs i could say i thought were closed to being at Peak.. all 4 i would say were over 90%.. I've only known about 3 men who constantly got dogs to be as close to 100% every time they shaped one. They also been around dogs between 20-30 years in the dogs as well. What you said though made perfect sense because my buddy said until i learn how to peak at the perfect time, it's better to be close to peak then to get there and come out stale.. I understand exactly what you meant..