View Full Version : What suplements do you cut out in the final week
Had a conversation with someone who said its best to cut the b12 vitamine out of the supplements in the last week. I have googled it for a bit after that, found one topic on gd where 2 guys say it will run your dog hot, no reasons given, and one on this board. Reason given is when you slightly dehydrate the dog in the final day and the hct is already high, the blood concentration can get to thick, so the heart will have a harder time to pump it around the body which means delayed transportation of oxygen trhough the red blood cells. Ok i understand his theory, don't know if one week is going to make a difference though and so this reason would count for any red blood cell boosting supplements. Any other reasons to cut it out?
Thought it might be interesting (discussion) to see what else you guys cut out in the last week or day of your keep.
how about supplements which contain dextrose/glucose
Was thinking how can it be that when you're in the hardest part of your training and you're using all of these supplements, why doesnt the dog run hot then, so why would you cut any of them out?
No scientific data to back up or bolster my opinion....The supplements are there because the dog is being worked to the point his normal feed plan will not be sufficient. In a lot of keeps the last week or so is a lot more rest and nailing down the weight at a specific time of the day. If the dog is resting more the supplementations are no longer needed (to a point, and depending on the supplement). If the amount of working supplementation is maintained when the work load is not there it could be issues.
There is a thread here about B vitamins and running hot. I see the theory R2L posted about as well. I think lots of people need to have an excuse/point fingers/blame game when the dog runs hot. Basically, it is never my fault. (LOL) I think the misuse of supplements, or better said the over use of supplements can lead to issues during maximum output. For me though, I think that usually can be fingered to the amount and type of work during the keep more so than the supplements. An example is a dog that ran a really free spinning mill throughout the keep for long periods at a medium pace. On show night he has to wrestle and push and pull and strain. All of a sudden he is hot. No supplementation issue here, just lack of a good keep. Opposite is true as well. The dog that pulls weight, gets all muscled up and is a strength machine. Then on show night it is a fast paced, back and forth affair. The speed of the night runs him hot, not what he was given during the keep.
Kinda got off topic. I think the issue with any supplement and its effectiveness depends on the amount of work it is coupled with through out the keep. If not, the supplements are no longer supplements, they should be a part of the daily feed regimen. Supplements, by definition are extra, and when those 'extras' are applied they need to be done so in a proportional amount to the work being done.
So as I rest and prepare in the last few days the supplements come off accordingly. Again, no scientific data to support my thoughts. EWO
No scientific data to back up or bolster my opinion.
That doesn't matter. You do not hold back to write something in public. That's the only way to get a good discussion and a better idea of what's just a myth or what to watch out for.
Good point, people always try to find excuses.:mrgreen: Im trying to rule them out.
Do we mean the same thread about b vitamines and running hot; a discussion between gotap and waccamaw? I still wonder why b12 would run a dog hot. And in what way it differs from Iron when it comes to running hot.
I understand your point. But let's take for example. I have one supplement containing HBM,MSM, a little ammount of creatine , thiamine b1 and maltodextrin. HBM and also the creatine is something that will help train more effective/longer(goes against acidification) and recover better after the training, but also protect the muscle mass. Thiamine helps with converting carbohydrates/glucose into energy. Maltodextrin consist of glucose.
I see nothing wrong with the HBM and MSM, that little bit of creatine will not cause any water retention, the thiamine i don't mind for what ever carbohydrates my dogs will have in its body during a show. Though i remember glucose is a fast sugar and not something you want a bulldog to run on in a show. Now i don't know in what quantities each ingredient is, i do know its main ingredient is HBM.
Considering it's something advised to used at least 20 days prior to an event, also on the resting and taking in mind that this is a greyhound supplement. Would you or would you not keep giving it? I wonder why they advise to keeping it continuously until the event.
The dog will benefit from most ingredients during the show day, but if there's one thing that could work against the dog, like the glucose (although again i dont know in what %) it's better to stop it. Now that im wrote this i think you're better of buying each supplement individually, though you would really have to be careful with the dosages.
Im far from a professor myself, i just try to google for stuff i don't know. Lot of good but also bad information on the net.
So aside from the question what supplements do you cut out in the last week; what do you still want to use on the showday itself.
evolutionkennels
11-30-2013, 06:47 AM
I agree with EWO (like usual) on the keep. That's why Stp used one day hard turning mill, one day free spinning. That's why I like the 30 foot jenny with the counterweight. However, that last week, I do believe in cutting out all vitamin b and supplements. If the feed is good enough and you rest him well that last week, the dogs body doesn't need the excess stuff. We cut out all supplements the Monday before the Saturday show. If you are going to use Dex before, make sure you have tested it on the dog throughout the keep to check for an allergic response.. Some dogs don't take well to it and 5mg of prednisone two days in a row before the show will help reduce water and act as anti-inflammatory and prevent shock. Not saying we are right, that's just what has worked for us
First, we cut out everything about 7 days out. My last three hard days are the Friday, Saturday and Monday prior to the following Saturday show. My last "supplementations" are giving on that Saturday night, 7 days out. The last 12-14 days I regulate everything going in at intervals so I know what he will weigh morning, noon and night the last 10 days.
Check out the site sportsvet.com
One of the things about using studies and scientific data for other breeds in other sports is that only part of it applies to what we are asking of our dogs. The grey hound dog is going to need immediate energy, maximum output, incredible burst and his race is over in seconds. In this area there is little room for running hot so I am guessing (as I know nothing about greyhound racing) the supplements can be fed up to and maybe throughout training. Again I do not know how often the same dog races each day/week/event. If it us multiple times in a day or weekend then there is rest periods in between as other races take place. In those cases I think one could supplement lesser amounts over longer periods of time. Again, just an assumption.
Next would be the sled dogs. The initial burst to get going and then the steady all day drain places a different demand on the body thus it would need different supplementations. In that all day drain they also have the benefit of colder temperatures. Musher.com magazine has some nice articles on sled dog nutrition, especially fat content that are really informative.
Then there is the hunting/game (bird)/tracking and treeing type dogs. They jog around until they jump and then it is an all out sprint over long stretches til they tree or something is shot. They load up (resting) and go to another spot and do it again several times thru the day. (These are the most impressive to me because most of these hounds are fed gravy flavored cardboard straight out of a bag. How they give what they give all day is amazing to me in itself, but a different topic altogether).
Not that anyone needed a history on the types of sporting dogs but there are tests and studies on feeding and supplementing these dogs. No university or dog food company is testing for the bulldog. The bulldog owner has to draw from each of these "known studies" and choose what applies as we need them all at varying times through out a show. Thus, varying training methods thru a keep works best and supplementing in proportion to work is best.
R2L, after all that babbling my answer to you would be an honest, " I do not know about your specific question". My best advice would be to try it and see. Maybe not for the show but maybe for a end of schooling hard roll where one would be in control of the outcome and would not lose dog nor money, only time. Trading time for knowledge can be priceless. There are so many variables in supplementing dogs (just like EVOLUTION said about dex, not all dogs react the same) your dog may do fine on that supplement all the way thru and mine may not do so well.
Another one of my opinions, conditioning a bulldog is far more art than science. Lots of variables, lots of subjective ideas, lots of bias, lots of 'what I like to see'.
Apologize for the babbling on. Best of luck. EWO
I agree, you can make it as complicated as you want to. Think if you found something that works for you, you should stick to it, and if you are going to change stuff, change only 1 thing. I didnt reach that point just yet, lol.
As for the greyhound stuff im aware. Though many of the supplements made for this dogs come as close as it gets when searching for a balanced supplement for our type of dogs. I think the fast carbohydrates/sugars in them are something you should most watch out for.
Brings me to the next question, does anyone know for a fact how long a dog will store these in their bodies? Wouldnt that be the energy source that the dog will use first so i guess they will also be gone quickly? In that case there is no need to stop a complete suplement 7 days out, just because it has some dextrose in it.
evolutionkennels
12-01-2013, 08:11 AM
Try it both ways and see
I am not sure about the dextrose question. Timing it from ingestion to assimilation to being drawn on for energy would be tough to do. Using it on a regular basis so it is there I am not sure of, as I would rather use another form of calories on a regular basis/overtime.
With that said, I knew a guy who once used raw, unfiltered, unprocessed honey at the three hour out mark, and then again 1 hour prior. His thought process was it would give the initial burst/quick energy/immediate energy supply and then the dog would transition smoothly to other 'stores'. Whether the digestion process was that fast I do not know. Lots of times if someone feels good about something and experiences success, right or wrong, good or bad does not factor in all that much. If I am winning while feeding corn flakes and cabbage it would be a hard task for someone to convince me to change to their way of thinking.
There are a lot of creatine supplements that use dextrose for the insulin spike. I have never supplemented to the end with these so I could not answer whether the dextrose would be an issue. I supplement throughout when the body is craving nutrients. The feed throughout is what I want him to be drawing from at the show. I am interested in others views, especially those that supplement all the way thru.
EWO
I agree, you can make it as complicated as you want to. Think if you found something that works for you, you should stick to it, and if you are going to change stuff, change only 1 thing. I didnt reach that point just yet, lol.
As for the greyhound stuff im aware. Though many of the supplements made for this dogs come as close as it gets when searching for a balanced supplement for our type of dogs. I think the fast carbohydrates/sugars in them are something you should most watch out for.
Brings me to the next question, does anyone know for a fact how long a dog will store these in their bodies? Wouldnt that be the energy source that the dog will use first so i guess they will also be gone quickly? In that case there is no need to stop a complete suplement 7 days out, just because it has some dextrose in it.
FrostyPaws
12-01-2013, 11:45 PM
I don't cut out anything. My last work day is the Wednesday before the show, giving my dog 3 days of rest. I stopped giving a full week rest out some time ago as it always caused me more headache than it's worth. The entire thing about B12 and running hot makes no sense whatsoever. Dogs run hot due to the amount of energy they expend. If they're not in the shape to expend that much energy, you get hot. That's why you have to work the shit out of barnstorming dogs or they will work themselves off their feet, thereby putting them in a position to quit.
Good post. I agree with the running hot issue. I think running hot is the result of not being able to expend the energy required for that certain span of time.
I have known a few that stop about 3 to four days out. I like stopping on Monday night. That gives me Tuesday thru Saturday to adjust food to weight without the working loss. Good post. EWO