DISPUTED OR FAKE PEDS FROM THE PAST AND PRESENT .

[projectx]

I will start this thread by posting what is said to be the true pedigree of arts missy and littermates gr ch davis boomerang and ron petronellis fox , as stated by ed crenshaw.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=22&dam_id=31515

[projectx]

This is another dog whos true pedigree is supposed to be this one below in the pedigree , its patricks tombstone .
The reasons as to why this is more than likely the true pedigree i will try to explain, and the first thing is that don maloney had a deal with earl tudor that any pups out of earls pure females like baby he was supposed to tell him about before dealing them out to anyone without earls say so, and as such if tombstone was out of baby then don maloney would have been in trouble from earl and earl known that maloney had dealth tombstone to ron petronelli wihtout him being told about it.
Another reason is that don mayfield always felt that tombstone was out of one of earls pure bitches that maloney had on his yard as explained above but was never able to completely get the truth out of maloney to be sure and as such he never bred tombstone into his dogs ,but he felt sure tombstone wasnt out of the bitch speedy allens jena .Don had something like 400 plus audio tapes that he had from his telephone conversations with dogmen like maloney and many others from those years , including earl tudor and carver etc etc , and althoguh i only have a mere handfull of thsoe audios tapes , i do have around 15 of them which include such rarities as conversations with earl tudor and carver and don maloney , where don is talking to maloney about the tombstone dog he got from ron petronelli who originally got the dog from don maloney, and in the conversation maloney seems to slip up and tell don mayfield that tombstone is out of the same dam as his nigger dog , which is baby , which to don made more sense to him as tombstone showed to be a very famly bred dog , not just in his gamness but in his subsequent proudcing abilty later on for pat patrick , to whom he later sold tombstone .Well in the same conversation maloney then catches himself and says to mayfield that tombstone is out of the jena bitch, but eventhough don was sure he wasnt out of her but out of baby , he didnt want ot take the chance to breed him into his line just incase it was true as he didnt want any part of the jena bitch in his line ,so he later sold him to pat patrick with the option that he had breeding rights to the dog ,he dint tell patrick this , but it was incase he was able to prove 100% that tombstone was out of baby and could then breed to him at a later stage if he wanted to.
Years later and on another telephone conversation , from a man who don didnt know and was from arkansas i think , he memtioned to don about tombstone, and that at the time that tombstone was supposed to be whelped out of gena this man told don she was on another mans yard and could in no way have been whelping tombstone on don maloneys yard , and of course confirming dons gut feeling of how tombstone was truly bred but of course it was many years too late .
I wish and hope i could still get more of those audio tapes, as they are the jewels that are really worth having , and although i like many other have all his video tapes also, the audios where he talks to these other dogmen recording them so as to have a record of their conversations ,so as in the case of tombstone to try to get to the truth on many things especially true breedings etc , and with earl he would take his tape recorder down to earls place and earl was happy to talk with don and those audios are like goldust for anyone in the dogs to learn and understand more about the game and the men who played it in those years that we all look back at as the golden generation of the game when tudor was still alive and breeding through to mayfield maloney carver burton and many more great characters and dogmen of the game, and i hope i can get more of those audios , i would like them all , but im happy to have the ones i do have as even in these few i have theres some of the most interesting conversations, two of which i have mentioned in this post about the true pedigree of patricks tombstone and i hope you enjoyed it regardless of whether you believe this pedigree is the true one or the one maloney put on tombstone .

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=37&dam_id=1628

[Officially Retired]

Okay, now, on the Ed Crenshaw breeding up top, I have never heard that about Boomer. What I do know is Ed Crenshaw had some white dogs, and many heavy Boomer dogs are known to be white, so there is some circumstantial evidence to support this theory.

On the Tombstone dog, I am one more you can add to the list of people who believe he was brother/sister bred off of Toot & Ch Baby (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=37&dam_id=1628) :)
Speedy Allen's Gina makes no sense, both as a breeding as well as why top dogmen would have it, use it, etc.
By contrast, a bother/sister breeding of Spike/Black Widow dogs explains why Tombstone was so game, and it also explains why he was such a prepotent producer.

And now I am going to throw in another fake breeding that "I heard of" (and believe) and that is the true breeding on Honeybunch. I am one of the many people who believes Honeybunch was NOT really off of Bullyson. To the best of my knowledge, all Bullyson ever threw were Black dogs. He was a black dominant AA dog and it was genetically impossible for him to throw anything else, no matter what he was bred to. (Sons/daughters of Bully could, if he was bred to red/buckskin dogs, but anything off of Bully directly had to be black.) That said, my belief is that Honeybunch was a father/daughter breeding (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=486&dam_id=484) of Carver's Amber bred back to her father Cracker (making her 3/4 Dibo/Black Widow, 1/4 Rascal/Black Widow, and Rascal is Dibo's 1/2-brother). I forget where I heard this, but this breeding did happen, and it also makes more "genetic sense" than Bullyson to Amber. It also explains why Honeybunch was such a great producer.

That's my $0.02.

Jack

[projectx]

The next dog that has a disputed pedigree is boudreaux's blind billy , this pedigree below is how floyd has him bred , and then we can look at the reality of whether that is true or not.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=165

What i would like to do is put my evidence or theory forward to prove that blind billy was not bred as floyd says , but infact
was as many dogmen of the time thought , of unknown breeding .If blind billy was not bred as floyd says, then that would lead us onto how ELI is bred and floyds whole family of dogs from that time forward , but lets start with blind billy, and for that we have to start with tudors dibo.
Tudors dibo was born on 1951-03-21 and we know from the story of dibo that he never went to tudor untill he was around
3 years old , which would make the date for him arriving on tudors yard no earlier than late 1953 to sometime in 1954 .
Now if we use floyds own words from his interview in the times jan-feb edition 1989 ,where he states that blind billy was born in 1952 and he got him in 1953 by trading earl tudor some rooster for him, then i think its fair to say that it would be
very unlikley that dibo could ever be the sire to blind billy , and is far more likely to be a dog of unknown heritage as suspected at the time .
Now with that in place i would like to move on to the ELI dog , who is supposed to be out of blind billy ,which with the above info in place looks very unlikely also. Before i go on and psot what is belived to be the true breeding of the ELI dog,
i would like to post this story by don mayfield about the ELi dog as this should help to give anyone not familiar with the
story something more to go on.
THIS BELOW STORY OF ELI BY DON MAYFIELD

Let me begin at the beginning when I first started in the game. One of my first friends in the game was Floyd Boudreaux. Floyd and I got together right away, he had not won any matches and I showed up to my first match with gameness and conditioning and Floyd and I became close friends in the '60s and traveled the road together and spoke on the phone very often.


When I had the bitch Cry Baby in 1965, my wife and I got separated for a while and I took Cry full of pups over to Floyd's so he would care for her until she whelpped in 2 weeks. I got the Cry bitch from George Gillman and Curly Hayes. They had bought her from Evelyn Start after she had won a match with her and they went on to win one or two more with Cry after that before I dealed for her.


I called Floyd after the date she was due to whelp and he told me that all of her pups were born dead. But when I went to get Cry back after 7 or 8 weeks it was obvious that she had whelped her pups and had been nursing them till about a week or two before I went to pick her up at Floyd's. I looked real good but I never said anything about it to Floyd.


About 2 years later, Floyd showed up at pitside with the Eli dog. When Eli's match started, Curly Hayes came up to me and said, "Don, you told me that all of Crys pups had died", and I said "Curley, thats what Floyd told me but I got eyes and I can see". It was the fact that Eli looked more like a twin to his dam than he did her son that gave him away. Later, Leo Kinard came up to me and said "Don, where did Floyd get the BLACK dog? did Cry have her pups on Floyd's yard?"


A while after that some in the game like Leo Kinard and Junior Bush told some others that Floyd had told them that Eli was was out of Cry, and some years later Sonny Sykes told me that he had seen Cry at Floyd's with her pups nursing off her and Floyd had let him take his pic of the litter. There were 6 in that litter and 2 of them were matched that I know of and one of them was called Ellis' Pistol. Sonny told me that after Eli had won his first match Floyd came up to him and said that Eli was the pup he had picked out of the litter but had never come to get.


After that incident Floyd and I had our falling out and ended our friendship.


The hardest and gamest dogs I seen produced by Eli were when he was bred to bitches off the Corvino family by John Cotton and Junior Bush. All of them were game winners and I always believed that the dog Zebo was one of them when Eli was stolen from John Cotten's yard and taken to Indian Sonnys yard in California where he was bred.


According to this version of the breeding of Eli, his true ped would be:


....................Langham's Cotton
.........Little Cotton
....................Dolan's Lady
...Eli
....................Tudor's Dibo
.........Cry Baby
....................Tudor's Dinah
This is the full pedigree of the believed to be true breeding of ELI below .

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=11153&dam_id=14044

Now as you can see from the story mayfield tell us that crybaby who was a black female by the way would have
whelped ELI in 1965 , so blind billy if he was even alive in 1965 would have been at least 12 years old , which
although doesnt rule him out under normal circumstances, i do believe with the unlikely possibility that blind billy
is bred as floyd says he is, it would be even less likely that he is the sire of ELI .
The story tell us and others have also over the years said that they had known that ELI was out of the crybaby littter,
and infact sonny sykes told of how floyd did offer him a pick from the litter which confirms dons story also .The other thing
is that floyd never had any black dogs before ELI ,and over the next few years from ELI onwards floyds whole line became
a predominately black line of dogs , which when you add up all the other evidence from blind billy on , it makes more sense.
I think that if we believe that blind billy was not bred like floyd says based on the evidence we have , then it stands to
reason that ELI and floyds whole family of dogs is not desended from blind billy ,but from the little cotton and crybaby litter
themselves .

[S_B]

Very interesting read ProjectX.

Makes a lot of since about the Tombstone and Honeybunch dogs.

What doesn't make since is WHY would so many dogmen of the past switch up pedigrees on bulldogs? I realize there were far less dogs, and one would want to stay ahead of the game by keeping recipes secret. But why not just choose not to disclose the pedigree?

It just seems such a dishonest practice.

Not to take anything away from any of the dogmen mentioned, as they are mostly just legends in the dust to most of us now. But imagine how much more great they would be if controversy didn't follow them.

[projectx]

Very interesting read ProjectX.

Makes a lot of since about the Tombstone and Honeybunch dogs.

What doesn't make since is WHY would so many dogmen of the past switch up pedigrees on bulldogs? I realize there were far less dogs, and one would want to stay ahead of the game by keeping recipes secret. But why not just choose not to disclose the pedigree?

It just seems such a dishonest practice.

Not to take anything away from any of the dogmen mentioned, as they are mostly just legends in the dust to most of us now. But imagine how much more great they would be if controversy didn't follow them.

Thanks sb , but what do you think about the blind billy ELI theory looking at the facts, its a shame that floyd or any other dogman would do that , but maybe the difference here between say carver being dishonest of faking peds
was more about either not wanting others to know the true breeding so he himself could repeat it , and also that as with bullyson and other flavour of the month dogs he would fake peds to sell you the pedigree or flavour of the month so to speak rather than to claim a line as his own , or to pass it off as sometihng that only he had a hand in and no other man.

Floyd on the other hand seems to have done his ped faking in this case to take credit for the line or not to give credit to another man , in this case mayfield , as both crybaby and little cotton were mayfields at the time and he made the breeding , but that type of ped faking seems worse to me than what carver did , as he wasnt claiming the breedings he faked peds on like carver did with ironhead or bullyson breedings etc which is still unacceptable done on the industrial scale carver did it on , floyds ped faking was claiming that a whole line was bred down from his own breeding ,as floyd seems to have done starting with the fake blind billy pedigree which led onto ELI and then the family of dogs we call the boudreaux family of dogs which definetly takes the shine from the mans legend status , but it shouldnt surpirse any of us that this happens, its called taking a short cut and most definetly dishonest .

[Wise]

Bobby halls bullyson dogs are even black til this day! I think those guys wrote up peds of whatever the buyer wanted man they didn't give a fuck back then noe was there any Internet or fast way to prove anything so....

[bolero]

i wouldnt beleive a word out of mayfirlds mouth

[projectx]

i wouldnt beleive a word out of mayfirlds mouth

Bolero when you make a statment like that , you should at least put some meat on the bones about why , and out of curiosity do you belive floyd boudreuax on blind billy ? i mean you read the post about that ,and the supporting evidence , which by the way only went to show just how mayfield was right all along about blind billy and ELI'S true breeding , along with many others which we have touched on like tombstone and others to come.

Mayfield told of a variety of dogs whos breeding he believed to be different than the
pedigree would show, as he had more information of breedings in his part of the world
and the ones mentioned in this thread so far are far more likely to be like he and others
knew they were than not.

Don like all of us was not perfect by any means , but when it came to pedigrees and breedings you could take his word to the bank , he was obsseive about them, and had
the bigest collection of information on the history of the breed and the game that any
man has ever had.

The funny thing is that non of the men whos dogs he claimed were bred differently
than they claimed, ever tried to say the same about him , they instead tried to say he
was crazy or other things ,but they never said that his dogs were bred different than he said as they knew they werent and that mayfield may not have been a saint ,but they
knew that if they tried to claim that about him they would be going down a dead end street.

Jack in his reply to the tombstone post ,where i explianed why mayfield could never bring
himself to breed to tombstone , eventhough he was sure that tombstone was out of baby and not jena , agreed that it didnt make sense the jena pedigree , and we can now be
certain that mayfield was infact correct in believing that tombstone was out of baby , but
becasue at the time he couldnt be 100% sure ,eventhough malony lets slip in the audio
that he is out of baby, then corrects himself later on in the same audio, and don because
of his way of breeding didnt want to take the chance by breeding tombstone into his
nigger bred family dogs if there was any chance that jena was the dam to tombstone
and not baby.

This shows mayfields attention to detail in his breding plan, and how seriously he valued the truth in his breedings and was aware as he has shown by what he claimed for many years
and i can tell you this , if i had to take one mans word on how his own dogs were bred , and the dogs in this thread so far ,then regardless of how much of a legend both mayfield and
boudreaux both are, i would have to say that on this i would trust mayfield , as i think
its fair to say that mayfield has pretty much proven to have been telling us the truth
on blind billy /ELI / tombstone , and if i had to say what you said about mayfield bolero,
it would be boudreaux i would be saying it about not mayfield .

For anyone who didnt know , don had more info and knowledge that he had amased in his
years of painstaking research of this breed and the men who played the game he loved.
He had trunks full of had written pedigrees from all those years and from the collections
of earl tudor amonst others , in put toggether a libray of video ,and more importantly 400 +
audio tapes of his dealings and conversations with every dogman from earl tudor to old frank
fitzwater and everyone else inbetween , in his search for the truth in breeding and as an absolute fanatic of this game and breed to have the forethought and passion of a true collector to have done that .

[bolero]

what u stated was not facts wat u stated were mayfields beleifs, now if great dogs like eli bullyson and brendy and eli jr were really mayfield dogs why could don nevere ever produce dogs as good as them or produced like them.

[S_B]

ProjectX,

I'm not as familiar with the Boudreaux dogs, or others mentioned in this thread. But this information is presented as a "theory" which can support facts or evidence as such. But the point is it isn't a proven solid, without a doubt fact.

It is an interesting read tough, and one can make their own judgement based on your theories, and evidence.

[CYJ]

I no longer know if John Cotton and Bill Cotton were brothers are of any kin. John Cotton was a ex FBI agent that lived in Tenn. and had some Corvino dogs. He was friends with Mayfield and Mr. Bush. Bill Cotton lived in N.C. and was the owner of the famed Cotton's Bullet dog. I never got to meet Bill Cotton but V. Jackson did at the Hank's dog's first match.

Is some interesting discussion on the Eli/ Tombstone etc. I thought Randy Fox was a member on here. Would like his thoughts on the Speedy Alan's Gina bitch. Maloney had a full sister to Tombstone named Bonnie that was bred to the Fox's Alvin dog and some others. Was some good dogs off her.

There is a lot of OFRN breeding along with Tudor/Corvino/Armitage/Williams/ Colby dogs in Gina's pedigree. If she was a red nose Gyp and since Toot was a red nose dog as well. Tombstone would show that red nose influence.

I had back in my time era thought of Don Maloney just a Dog matcher and Dog conditioner. Other than Toot and Colorado. A lot of his other pedigrees showed more DeCordova/Hemphill and other bred dogs in his area. I will have to pull up his pedigrees and take another look.

Kennedy/Deffenbach/Uselton/Trussell/etc. did more to keep those last breeding's of Tudor going. When the Glover - Stinson Sampson dog was lost after his last match with Hooten's Butcher Boy. Was a great loss to that Tudor family line of dogs. Jim Usleton was wanting to save Sampson so badly. A misunderstanding got him accidentally shot in one leg by a shot gun.

It is sad that men like E. Crenshaw, did not man up back then when they saw breeding's that were shown incorrect. Called UKC and ADBA to get the pedigrees corrected.

Was to late for Mr. E. Crenshaw to have let himself be taped in a interview. Claiming the errors of M. Carver breeding's after he had died. Mr. Crenshaw should have been addressing that matter to Ralph Greenwood when the paper changing was going down. At least with the dogs he and Carver were breeding.

If we could really see how many of the dogs of the 60's, 70's, 80's were really bred. Would be quite a eye opener. Howard Heinzl was one the few dog man that no one spoke bad of. Was considered to have been very honest with his breeding's and papers. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Very interesting, CYJ, thanks.

Did you know Deffenbach? I heard he lost with a Champion to the great Robert T dog. Did you happen to see that match?

Jack

[Officially Retired]

i wouldnt beleive a word out of mayfirlds mouth

I agree with some of this.

I certainly don't take every word out of Mayfield's (or anyone else's) mouth as gospel ... but, by the same token, he did have a lot of insight as to dogs of that era and I am sure some of his ideas/beliefs were true.

Jack

[projectx]

what u stated was not facts wat u stated were mayfields beleifs, now if great dogs like eli bullyson and brendy and eli jr were really mayfield dogs why could don nevere ever produce dogs as good as them or produced like them.

Bolero you are not reading what i posted, i never said that they were mayfield dogs, mayfield made the breeding of crybaby to little cotton , and if as i think it is ,we can see ,that if floyds story about blind billy was a lie, then its very likley that ELI was bred out of the crybaby litter and as such the whole floyd line from that point on was bred down from that litter in some way shape or form.
Bolero i ask you again having read the blind billy story i posted , using times and dates and using what i would call
a nose for smelling a rat, do you think that blind billy can possibly be bred as floyd says , and if not then it would stand to reason that floyd and not mayfield must have been lying, so as i asked you in my previous post, what did mayfiled lie to you about for you to say that about him?, i at least am putting forward my reason with some kind of evidence as to why i feel certain dogs were not bred as their pedigrees showed , what are you providing as evidence about mayfield lying in these cases ?

[projectx]

I no longer know if John Cotton and Bill Cotton were brothers are of any kin. John Cotton was a ex FBI agent that lived in Tenn. and had some Corvino dogs. He was friends with Mayfield and Mr. Bush. Bill Cotton lived in N.C. and was the owner of the famed Cotton's Bullet dog. I never got to meet Bill Cotton but V. Jackson did at the Hank's dog's first match.

Is some interesting discussion on the Eli/ Tombstone etc. I thought Randy Fox was a member on here. Would like his thoughts on the Speedy Alan's Gina bitch. Maloney had a full sister to Tombstone named Bonnie that was bred to the Fox's Alvin dog and some others. Was some good dogs off her.

There is a lot of OFRN breeding along with Tudor/Corvino/Armitage/Williams/ Colby dogs in Gina's pedigree. If she was a red nose Gyp and since Toot was a red nose dog as well. Tombstone would show that red nose influence.

I had back in my time era thought of Don Maloney just a Dog matcher and Dog conditioner. Other than Toot and Colorado. A lot of his other pedigrees showed more DeCordova/Hemphill and other bred dogs in his area. I will have to pull up his pedigrees and take another look.

Kennedy/Deffenbach/Uselton/Trussell/etc. did more to keep those last breeding's of Tudor going. When the Glover - Stinson Sampson dog was lost after his last match with Hooten's Butcher Boy. Was a great loss to that Tudor family line of dogs. Jim Usleton was wanting to save Sampson so badly. A misunderstanding got him accidentally shot in one leg by a shot gun.

It is sad that men like E. Crenshaw, did not man up back then when they saw breeding's that were shown incorrect. Called UKC and ADBA to get the pedigrees corrected.

Was to late for Mr. E. Crenshaw to have let himself be taped in a interview. Claiming the errors of M. Carver breeding's after he had died. Mr. Crenshaw should have been addressing that matter to Ralph Greenwood when the paper changing was going down. At least with the dogs he and Carver were breeding.

If we could really see how many of the dogs of the 60's, 70's, 80's were really bred. Would be quite a eye opener. Howard Heinzl was the only dog man that no one spoke bad of. Was considered to have been very honest with his breeding's and papers. Cheers

Nice post cyj, tudors baby was the female of earls that was on maloneys yard and was the likely dam to tombstone, and im sure if you read my post about the audio tape which i actually have and on it there is the convo with maloney and a man who called mayfield some years later and told don about how the gina bitch was up in another state when
she was suposed to be on maloenys yard whelping tomstones litter .
I think that jack is correct in saying that you should never completely belive everything about thoses times, regadless of
who tells you, but im more than happy to take mayfields word about tombstone/ ELI and blind billy not being bred as they show.
I do that not becasue i want to believe it just becasue mayfield says it, i think if you read my post about these dogs , i have used as msuch evidence,such as it is , including floyds own words , and the circumstanstail evidence of various factors like the audio conovs about tombstone, the timeline for blind billy and dibo which if true would more than likely prove that ELI was infact out of the crybaby litter as was thought at the time,and as such would mean that mayfield should at least get some recognition for that litter and the subsequent breeding that floyd most probably made with eli and the other litter mates .
In those audios mayfield had it showed the foresight to keep a record of his converstions ,from them we have found out many things about the breedings not just from amyfields mouth but from the mouths of the men he talked to in those audio tapes, which are the
most important information source we have today , and i only wish i had more of them , but from just those few it proved
a lot of what mayfield had said over these years was true.

As for ed crenshaws audio interview, well i think he in many ways had the tell on carver , he knew more about carvers breedings than most other folks around , and im not sure we should condem him about not telling what he knew about possible mixed up peds like the ones mentioned , as i think the dogmen back then and especially from ed crenshaws generation were far more low key and kept things to themselves much more than today , with the internet and instant access to information etc , but i agree with you it would be great if they all came out and said something , The trouble is back then how did you prove it, there was no dna like today , and when mayfield did say something ,which now looks like it was true, he gets shot down as jealous and crazy , so its not like the fraterntiy welcomes this type of news
with open arms , because if one mans lying then another is telling the truth , and the folks who stand behind the man caught lying never seem to be able to face upto it , its like they feel like thev'e been made to look a fool by sticking up for the liar , so rahter than look like fools they just call the other man a lair and hope it goes away , but the thing is that the truth ,or at least the truth as best as we can get it, comes out in the end ,just like blind billy ELI and tombstone , to name a few.

[CYJ]

Did not meet Deffenbach. Did briefly meet Maloney/ Maurice Carver/ and saw some of the other famous dog men at that dog show in Texas. Was when Don Mayfield put on a great dog show and his Easy bitch was matched into Stinson and Glover's Ruby bitch.

After that show when Easy lost to Ruby. Myself and V. Jackson went back to Don's Home and dog yard. With some other dog men do not remember all the names of this small group. Kreshner might have been one of the dog men. I was good at remembering faces but bad on names.

That was the day I started slowly parting ways with Don. Until then I along with Vernon were big Mayfield fans. Don had set up those matches with very strict washing rules. Even using the 100% percent alcohol, fresh sleeveless coveralls and sewed pockets. One sponge and water bucket. Dogs had to enter the show ring through a wire enclosure.

Nothing was handed into the show ring with Corner men on all sides. Some of these matches were going for good money and all means of cheating would be hard to pull off. Not to mention many season dog men were there. Nothing wrong with doing it this way and probably the best way today.

Later as we sat there in the dog yard, talking back and forth. I could see Don was not in the best of moods and kept looking far off in the distance in deep thought. After awhile he finally turned around to us and said his Bitch Easy had been rubbed. That hit me like a ton of bricks and later on in the trip back home.

I told V. Jackson he could continue with the older dogs we had started with, that I felt it was time for me to try something different.
I later got the McNeil Chuck dog, the 2x Lopossay Buster Pearl bitch from Shropshire and the Face bitch from Chandler. The Face bitch had some older Mayfield dogs through the Wille dog from Dwight Hathaway. The rest was mostly Bully Son/Art's Missy through the Middleton Black Betty bitch. Got one good breeding off the Zetterquest brother's Crazy dog.

One other thing that ended any future dealings with Mayfield, not that he ever did anything unfairly at the time we bought the two Coplin bitches from him. We later bred both bitches back to Sunshine and Tina to the Snake dog. Far as I knew, all had went well and Vernon had sent him the pups. Out of the deal Vernon not me had made with him. I had given my part of the pups to Vernon.

Sent the only male I had off Snake x Tina to Mr. Orbie Coplin for the two young stud dogs he had shipped to me. Was the last out cross stud dog Mr. Coplin owned. Named him Carolina Kid and kept him in the house. He and wife liked Carolina Kid a lot.

Later when the Jocko dogs etc. got popular off the Hank dog. Don ups and writes a real bummer of a article on the Hank dog. Vernon had bought the Hank dog as a pup out of Don's puppy pen. Their was some Sibling pups to the Hank dog. Some claim the Panama Red dog to be a sibling brother to Hank. Don gave Jackson the puppy ABDA registering certificate on Hank. Hank was ADBA registered dog.

After I read the article I called Don, asked him why he wrote such a article. When the Hank dog's reputation had not hurt the Mayfield name but enhanced it. He started telling me Vernon had not sent him the correct number of pups. I told him I knew nothing of any of this. Contacted Jackson to see what was up. Seems Vernon was short two pups since he had lost some of his from parvo or maybe a kennel accident. No longer remember all the details

I called Don back and told him I would send him a nice looking brindle female 4-5 month old pup off The Snake x Tina breeding. This was the second time I had ever shipped a dog by airways and did not know the stress a young pup could go through. The pup shipped to Mr. Coplin had went well. When Don picked the pup up it was badly dehydrated and had lost a lot of weight. He was not happy about that.

A year or so later I sent a fine little bitch off His Sunshine dog x Jackson's Pokey. To breed to Sunshine or Snake. He instead kept my bitch, renamed her Mayfield's Tish and bred her to Pusher. Was never able to get any inbreeding off his stud dogs. The last dog Vernon got from Don before their relationship fell apart was the Banjo dog.

Don was one of the best dog men in his prime and his conditioning thoughts and methods changed the way most dogs are worked today. Jackson used a lot of his method and I felt even improved on it. I am glad to have known Don briefly and never had any hard feelings. He was a Pro and I was a rookie.

Over time even Mr. Skinner told me that no matter how Maurice Carver was breeding his dogs. He was going to be the pit dog breeder to have the greatest impact on the dogs of today. Like Colby and Tudor did in their day. Don near the end may have felt he had not gotten the credit he should have. We will never know. Cheers

[projectx]

Did not meet Deffenbach. Did briefly meet Maloney/ Maurice Carver/ and saw some of the other famous dog men at that dog show in Texas. When Don Mayfield was matched into Stinson and Glover.

After that show when Easy lost to Ruby. Myself and V. Jackson went back to Don's Home and dog yard. With some other dog men do not remember all the names of this small group. Kreshner might have been one of the dog men. I was good at remembering faces but bad on names.

That was the day I started slowly parting ways with Don. Until then I along with Vernon were big Mayfield fans. Don had set up those matches with very strict washing rules. Even using the 100% percent alcohol, fresh sleeveless coveralls and sewed pockets. One sponge and water bucket. Dogs had to enter the show ring through a wire enclosure.

Nothing was handed into the show ring with Corner men on all sides. Some of these matches were going for good money and all means of cheating would be hard to pull off. Not to mention many season dog men were there. Nothing wrong with doing it this way and probably the best way today.

Later as we sat there in the dog yard, talking back and forth. I could see Don was not in the best of moods and kept looking far off in the distance in deep thought. After awhile he finally turned around to us and said his Bitch Easy had been rubbed. That hit me like a ton of bricks and later on in the trip back home.

I told V. Jackson he could continue with the older dogs we had started with, that I felt it was time for me to try something different.
I later got the McNeil Chuck dog, the 2x Lopossay Buster Pearl bitch from Shropshire and the Face bitch from Chandler. The Face bitch had some older Mayfield dogs through the Wille dog from Dwight Hathaway. The rest was mostly Bully Son/Art's Missy through the Middleton Black Betty dog. Got one good breeding off the Zetterquest brother's Crazy dog.

One other thing that ended any future dealings with Mayfield, not that he ever did anything unfairly at the time we bought the two Coplin bitches from him. We later bred both bitches back to Sunshine and Tina to the Snake dog. Far as I knew, all had went well and Vernon had sent him the pups. Out of the deal Vernon not me had made with him. I had given my part of the pups to Vernon.

Sent the only male I had off Snake x Tina to Mr. Orbie Coplin for the two young stud dogs he had shipped to me. Was the last out cross stud dog Mr. Coplin owned. Named him Carolina Kid and kept him in the house. He and wife liked Carolina Kid a lot.

Later when the Jocko dogs etc. got popular off the Hank dog. Don ups and writes a real bummer of a article on the Hank dog. Vernon had bought the Hank dog as a pup out of Don's puppy pen. Their was some Sibling pups to the Hank dog. Some claim the Panama Red dog to be a sibling brother to Hank. Don gave Jackson the puppy ABDA registering certificate on Hank. Hank was ADBA registered dog.

After I read the article I called Don, asked him why he wrote such a article. When the Hank dog's reputation had not hurt the Mayfield name but enhanced it. He started telling me Vernon had not sent him the correct number of pups. I told him I knew nothing of any of this. Contacted Jackson to see what was up. Seems Vernon was short two pups since he had lost some of his from parvo or maybe a kennel accident. No longer remember all the details

I called Don back and told him I would send him a nice looking brindle female 4-5 month old pup off The Snake x Tina breeding. This was the second time I had ever shipped a dog by airways and did not know the stress a young pup could go through. The pup shipped to Mr. Coplin had went well. When Don picked the pup up it was badly dehydrated and had lost a lot of weight. He was not happy about that.

A year or so later I sent a fine little bitch off His Sunshine dog x Jackson's Pokey. To breed to Sunshine or Snake. He instead kept my bitch, renamed her Mayfield's Tish and bred her to Pusher. Was never able to get any inbreeding off his stud dogs. The last dog Vernon got from Don before their relationship fell apart was the Banjo dog.

Don was one of the best dog men in his prime and his conditioning thoughts and methods changed the way most dogs are worked today. Jackson used a lot of his method and I felt even improved on it. I am glad to have known Don briefly and never had any hard feelings. He was a Pro and I was a rookie.

Over time even Mr. Skinner told me that no matter how Maurice Carver was breeding his dogs. He was going the be the pit dog breeder to have the greatest impact on the dogs of today. Like Colby and Tudor did in their day. Don near the end may have felt he had not gotten the credit he should have. We will never know. Cheers

Nice post again cyj , but having looked at the info about blind billy /ELI in this thread what is your opinion about those breedings , and doesnt it look like don was correct in those and probably many other breedings of the day , i would like to know what you think , as i think maybe the fact that he made the breeding that produced eli may go some way to give him a litte more credit than he seems to have had as a breeder to the many who are uniformed on the matter.

[CYJ]

Ditto Projectx, I to feel there may be something to the Cry Baby story as well. I was the one who entered the Mayfield's Cotton pedigree and some other Mayfield pedigrees. The way it is today, I figure if you feel stronger about those thoughts told by those various dog men than what the pedigrees are showing.

Then as the old saying goes, where there is smoke there may be a fire. Breed one's dogs according to those line of thought. Instead of how the papers show the dog or dogs to be bred.

One may end up doing one of two things. Either one's dogs will be bred more correctly or have just made a brand new click that is working. After that, what happens is up to how one choses to breed/cull their dogs and how honest one choses to be with the future papers.

I doubt ADBA or UKC or the other registries will change anything today with most of these dog men no longer living. Even listening to all of those tapes. Putting those tapes on a CD for others to buy and hear. Would if they chose to, could rewrite their own personnel pedigrees to go by. Give a copy of it along with the other pedigree to any dogs sold or farmed out. That other person could to do with the info as they chose.

Sonny Shropshire was a long time Game Chicken person and I enjoyed several trips up to Box Wood. Was a blast from the past. Top Game Chicken men and game chickens meeting from all States to get it on. LOL

Sonny was a good dog man in the short time he was in it. One day not long before he quit the dog game. He told me during a visit that Game Chicken breeders and conditioners he had known. Were a hell of a lot more honest than the crowd of Pit dog men he had known and dealt with in the past years. I said you are probably right. LOL

In closing If I was going to get back into the game. Pedigrees and dog papers would not be my first priority. I would look for a yard of dogs like Mr. Hollingsworth had bred up. Dogs that are built to perform and all of the dogs on the yard look a like.

Hopefully you will get the right papers of what that immediate breeder has done and the advice of how to carry on that line. The Dog game is a never ending story with lots of highs and lows. May you all have a lot of Highs and very few lows. Cheers

[projectx]

Ditto Projectx, I to feel there may be something to the Cry Baby story as well. I was the one who entered the Mayfield's Cotton pedigree and some other Mayfield pedigrees. The way it is today, I figure if you feel stronger about those thoughts told by those various dog men than what the pedigrees are showing.

Then as the old saying goes, where there is smoke there may be a fire. Breed one's dogs according to those line of thought. Instead of how the papers show the dog or dogs to be bred.

One may end up doing one of two things. Either one's dogs will be bred more correctly or have just made a brand new click that is working. After that, what happens is up to how one choses to breed/cull their dogs and how honest one choses to be with the future papers.

I doubt ADBA or UKC or the other registries will change anything today with most of these dog men no longer living. Even listening to all of those tapes. Putting those tapes on a CD for others to buy and hear. Would if they chose to, could rewrite their own personnel pedigrees to go by. Give a copy of it along with the other pedigree to any dogs sold or farmed out. That other person could to do with the info as they chose.

Sonny Shropshire was a long time Game Chicken person and I enjoyed several trips up to Box Wood. Was a blast from the past. Top Game Chicken men and game chickens meeting from all States to get it on. LOL

Sonny was a good dog man in the short time he was in it. One day not long before he quit the dog game. He told me during a visit that Game Chicken breeders and conditioners he had known. Were a hell of a lot more honest than the crowd of Pit dog men he had known and dealt with in the past years. I said you are probably right. LOL

In closing If I was going to get back into the game. Pedigrees and dog papers would not be my first priority. I would look for a yard of dogs like Mr. Hollingsworth had bred up. Dogs that are built to perform and all of the dogs on the yard look a like.

Hopefully you will get the right papers of what that immediate breeder has done and the advice of how to carry on that line. The Dog game is a never ending story with lots of highs and lows. May you all have a lot of Highs and very few lows. Cheers

Good post CYJ , if you tend to believe the crybaby theory which i also believe to be true, then what about the blind billy
story, i think that is the one that has the evidence to prove it could not be correct based on the dob of dibo and the timeline with floyds own version of when and how he got billy , which in turn then makes the ELI crybaby story fit into place with much more certainty and means that like a house of cards the whole boudreaux line based on blind billy and ELI's pedigrees collapses like a house of cards.


I dont know what a man might do if he had all of dons audios or even just some of them, i just know that on the 15 i have
there is so much information that i wonder how much more we might learn if we had them all, and don had the foresight to
make those recordings so he could refer back to them, and also so he could prove such things about breedigns and other
such things that a man might say in confidence on the phone ,but not admit in public as don knew how the game was and
that the match was not only at pitside ,but in every conversation with many of those men .

But don also was so into the history of the breed and the dogmen from the past, that he would also take his tape
recorder with him on his visits to earl tudors place ,and he would record as much as he could of earl telling about
his time and the men he played the game with, which showed his passion for the game ,and don always put earl
at the top of the tree ,and those recordings of earl were dons way of not loosing that to just a memory ,and i for
one thank him for that , becasue of all the books and magazines and other gamedog related stuff i have, the items
i would keep above all others are the audio tapes i have , and especially the ones with earl tudor .

I think as you said , the ADBA or UKC arent going to change the peds on these dogs, eventhough i do believe that the
blind billy dog can be proved to be without much doubt to not be as bred as the official dob of dibo and the age of when
he arrived at tudors place to the dob on blind billy , means it was impossible for dibo to be the sire , and in this case i
think that those registries should when evidence is clear and damming of such falsfication of a pedigree as in billys case
that they delete that pedigree from billy and change the pedigree to say unknown behind billy , regardless of who
is the man behind the dog, even a legend like floyd boudreuax , otherwise it means that we can't have any confidence
in these registries to police these matters and act when they have reason to do so.

[CYJ]

Projectx it is very hard to put 100% confidence in what any of those dog men like Mayfield/ Tudor/Boudreaux/Carver/Patrick and others said. It is like allowing yourself to become the outsider that gets caught up in their little family squabble. I too felt like you do in my younger years and was a crusader for the Truth of the pedigrees etc. Was not long before I found myself beating on a dead horse. One minute these same dog men were talking crap about each other, then later on being the best of pals. Even having group pictures took. Sitting there picking and a grinning at some pig picking.

Who would believe all that Earl Tudor had to say when much he did. Showed him to have some serious character flaws. In the Burton interview it was mentioned that Burton's wife could tell Mrs. Tudor was much afraid of ole Earl. If it be true, what sort of man lets a dog man pimp, bring over a young prostitute and have sex with her in the barn. While his wife of many years is in the House near by. How honest do you think Tudor and Carver are going to be about all their dog dealings when doing something as common as that?

Or brag about taking a squaw Indian women anytime you please. Or keeping other dog men's brood bitches after they paid stud fees and had shipped the bitch dogs to him. Then when Tudor feels some one has wronged him. He goes up on his mountain and starts caterwauling, according to what Mayfield wrote. If all those said statements are True. I and the many readers were not there so really all could be a lot of hear say. No doubt Tudor was a top dog man in his day and had a great influence on the dog game. But to take all Tudor said as the gospel from Don's taped interviews and any of those other taped interviews. Is a little more salt than I would want to take on my food.

Your best contribution to this matter and to the others that have the rest of those tapes. Is to put them down on a CD and sell them for a fair price. Or have the interviews posted on this site, like Dead End does on the on lines pedigree site. Then everyone can make up their own minds. Still, getting those older pedigrees changed will be a moot point far as those registries are concerned. Cheers

[projectx]

Projectx it is very hard to put 100% confidence in what any of those dog men like Mayfield/ Tudor/Boudreaux/Carver/Patrick and others said. It is like allowing yourself to become the outsider that gets caught up in their little family squabble. I too felt like you do in my younger years and was a crusader for the Truth of the pedigrees etc. Was not long before I found myself beating on a dead horse. One minute these same dog men were talking crap about each other, then later on being the best of pals. Even having group pictures took. Sitting there picking and a grinning at some pig picking.

Who would believe all that Earl Tudor had to say when much he did. Showed him to have some serious character flaws. In the Burton interview it was mentioned that Burton's wife could tell Mrs. Tudor was much afraid of ole Earl. If it be true, what sort of man lets a dog man pimp, bring over a young prostitute and have sex with her in the barn. While his wife of many years is in the House near by. How honest do you think Tudor and Carver are going to be about all their dog dealings when doing something as common as that?

Or brag about taking a squaw Indian women anytime you please. Or keeping other dog men's brood bitches after they paid stud fees and had shipped the bitch dogs to him. Then when Tudor feels some one has wronged him. He goes up on his mountain and starts caterwauling. No doubt he was a top dog man in his day. But to take all Tudor said as the gospel from Don's taped interviews and any of those other taped interviews. Is a little more salt than I would want to take on my food.

Your best contribution to this matter and to the others that have the rest of those tapes. Is to put them down on a CD and sell them for a fair price. Or have the interviews posted on this site, like Dead End does on the on lines pedigree site. Then everyone can make up their own minds. Still, getting those older pedigrees changed will be a moot point far as those registries are concerned. Cheers

CYJ , i dont disagree with you about the many flaws they had asdo many others, but were all human and everyone has there weakaness.As for taking all the audios as gospel , well like everything else i like to use common sense but those audios have a lot of truth in them, and also a lot of the bullshit that comes with playing the game, but on a historical note they are the best information source in the spoken word from most all of the players from that era ,and as such i am very glad i have the few i have.

You still havent said whether you think that the blind billy story looks like don and others were correct , but if you dont want to say anything about that , then i guess you agree with me , and if it is a lie then i feel that this is a case that the adba should put right , as theres no way based on the dob's of dibo and the age we know he was first bred by tudor and blind billys dob that dibo can be the sire , and i for one would think it would show a strong adba who cares about true pedigrees if they were to change that pedigree to unknown regardless of it being boudreuax, and infact would show the adba to not be showing favouritism to any one man ,be it legend friend or newbie .

[CYJ]

It may or may not be true what Don said about the Blind Billie dog. Blind Billie and the Scrub dog to me look nothing like those Bully son etc. dogs. When I saw that picture of the Scrub dog taking the count. I thought to myself that dog looks sort of weird like a half breed pit and that Fuzzy tail at the end of him. Maybe just some bad angles on the picture taking.

When you call Mr. C. Mims be prepared to do a lot of listening. Make sure your calling plan has plenty of minutes. Carl and self both owned and used that little Duplechain's Sally bitch. Sally died on my yard. Carl was telling me about one of the times he was in a motel room or some place with Lonzo Pratt. Said Lonzo was drinking and feeling at ease. Told me Lonzo started laughing about how he had just sold some young unexperienced dog men some dogs with bogus papers.

That was something Mr. Mims never did or was ever spoken about in that way. He today still says the Bass Cleo bitch is bred off the Cotton's Bullet dog. Mr. Mims was at one time a boxer and I do not know if Bass ever boxed. Bass was a Boxing coach, his son was a Golden Gloves Boxer. So Mr. Mims and Bass got along real well.

I can not say the same, from some of the experiences I had with R.E. Bass. I did not trust him far as I could throw him. Mr. Teal and Rowell over time quit dealing with Bass. Bass and Rowell got in some sort of a bad dispute which ended up with Bass pulling a gun on Rowell and firing off a round or two at his feet. Even W. Truett got to go a few rounds with Ole Bass.

Bass did not play well with others. Bass had Jim Williams of Palidan fame slap Woody Truett in his own dog yard. The first vehicle that left Woody's yard he emptied his shot gun into the back of it. Sadly it was not Bass and Williams, they had managed to get gone right before Woody made it back out of his House. Was two other innocent dog men from N.C. They were lucky and did not get hurt, but the truck got shot up. This is not hear say. I was there that day.

Katie and Bass parted ways and dogs, after he deliberately hurt her son Bo Marlowe. When Bo was a little boy. Katie was a tough woman and beat ole man Bass down in the ground with a heavy work shovel. Bo told me She even threw the shovel through the back window of his car, as he was fleeing the trailer park. Fellows Katie Marlowe came up hard and was one tough woman. She was tough on those Red boy dogs as well. One did not look right or acted right. That one was a sure goner.

So what we discuss in private affairs may not always be the best thing to discuss out in the open. Someone will get offended and the pissing contest begins. I got a little carried away on that other site and had to reel it in. Will after this post bring it back down some.

On another dog site someone posted a topic about, if Jocko could have beat Crenshaw's Jeep. I jumped in with all four feet and stated that if Jocko was at Jeep's pit weight and V. Jackson conditioned Jocko. Jocko would have turned Jeep everyway but loose and helped him get over that pit wall. That Jeep tried to get over a couple of times before. LOL One of the Moderators must have had a lot of Jeep bred dogs. He banned me from the site as he stated to me, forever. LOL

So I am not really trying to dispute you are anyone else on those stories. It is just what it is today. Doubt there is any chance of changing any thing now. I can say for myself that the dog's that have my name on them are bred as shown. What the dog man did before me and after me. I had no control over that.

I had the whole dog match on 8mm film of the Famous Trahan's Cajun dog that was matched into Komosinski's Rocky dog. Mr. Mike Ferris worked the Trahan dog and Mr. Howard Teal worked the Rocky dog. My father filmed the whole event. Back then they pulled a dog down to his bottom weight. For dogs to go at it like they did and pulled that tight. You better have bred for deep gaminess.

I have misplaced this piece of dog history and hope to find it before too much longer. You have some great dog history that would be great too share with these younger dog men. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Projectx it is very hard to put 100% confidence in what any of those dog men like Mayfield/ Tudor/Boudreaux/Carver/Patrick and others said. It is like allowing yourself to become the outsider that gets caught up in their little family squabble. I too felt like you do in my younger years and was a crusader for the Truth of the pedigrees etc. Was not long before I found myself beating on a dead horse. One minute these same dog men were talking crap about each other, then later on being the best of pals. Even having group pictures took. Sitting there picking and a grinning at some pig picking.

Who would believe all that Earl Tudor had to say when much he did. Showed him to have some serious character flaws. In the Burton interview it was mentioned that Burton's wife could tell Mrs. Tudor was much afraid of ole Earl. If it be true, what sort of man lets a dog man pimp, bring over a young prostitute and have sex with her in the barn. While his wife of many years is in the House near by. How honest do you think Tudor and Carver are going to be about all their dog dealings when doing something as common as that?

Or brag about taking a squaw Indian women anytime you please. Or keeping other dog men's brood bitches after they paid stud fees and had shipped the bitch dogs to him. Then when Tudor feels some one has wronged him. He goes up on his mountain and starts caterwauling. No doubt he was a top dog man in his day. But to take all Tudor said as the gospel from Don's taped interviews and any of those other taped interviews. Is a little more salt than I would want to take on my food.

Your best contribution to this matter and to the others that have the rest of those tapes. Is to put them down on a CD and sell them for a fair price. Or have the interviews posted on this site, like Dead End does on the on lines pedigree site. Then everyone can make up their own minds. Still, getting those older pedigrees changed will be a moot point far as those registries are concerned. Cheers


Very good post, CYJ. Those tapes could be put to YouTube and posted here with the video links.

I have always believed as you do: a man who lies to and cheats on his wife will lie to and cheat anyone.

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Projectx it is very hard to put 100% confidence in what any of those dog men like Mayfield/ Tudor/Boudreaux/Carver/Patrick and others said. It is like allowing yourself to become the outsider that gets caught up in their little family squabble. I too felt like you do in my younger years and was a crusader for the Truth of the pedigrees etc. Was not long before I found myself beating on a dead horse. One minute these same dog men were talking crap about each other, then later on being the best of pals. Even having group pictures took. Sitting there picking and a grinning at some pig picking.

Who would believe all that Earl Tudor had to say when much he did. Showed him to have some serious character flaws. In the Burton interview it was mentioned that Burton's wife could tell Mrs. Tudor was much afraid of ole Earl. If it be true, what sort of man lets a dog man pimp, bring over a young prostitute and have sex with her in the barn. While his wife of many years is in the House near by. How honest do you think Tudor and Carver are going to be about all their dog dealings when doing something as common as that?

Or brag about taking a squaw Indian women anytime you please. Or keeping other dog men's brood bitches after they paid stud fees and had shipped the bitch dogs to him. Then when Tudor feels some one has wronged him. He goes up on his mountain and starts caterwauling. No doubt he was a top dog man in his day. But to take all Tudor said as the gospel from Don's taped interviews and any of those other taped interviews. Is a little more salt than I would want to take on my food.

Your best contribution to this matter and to the others that have the rest of those tapes. Is to put them down on a CD and sell them for a fair price. Or have the interviews posted on this site, like Dead End does on the on lines pedigree site. Then everyone can make up their own minds. Still, getting those older pedigrees changed will be a moot point far as those registries are concerned. Cheers

Excellent. DB will tell you the first thing he learned form Tudor was, "You better be willing to cheat to win"
Well, hell, how honest are all these "good ole boys"
Mayfield was known to be a jealous man who continually run down just about anyone he could. I wouldn't take the word from someone like this on any topic in life. Not a single one.

[Officially Retired]

I believe there was a man in TN, named Paul Sweeny, who beat Earl Tudor 4-0 ...

[projectx]

Excellent. DB will tell you the first thing he learned form Tudor was, "You better be willing to cheat to win"
Well, hell, how honest are all these "good ole boys"
Mayfield was known to be a jealous man who continually run down just about anyone he could. I wouldn't take the word from someone like this on any topic in life. Not a single one.
NQK by the looks of your post it seems like you arethe one trying to run down mayfield ,even
when as it seems that he was right about the dogs mentioned so far in this thread , which
would mean your the jealous one trying to run him down.

Nqk i would agree with you entirely about mayfield being jealous if everytime he said something about the fake peds as mentioned in this thread they all turned out to be just in his imagination, but you know who started those rumours about don being jealous? the guys who owned the dogs he was talking about i wonder why?,and guess what don was right most of the time, so maybe
your perception of a jealous man depends on whos telling you that, i dont think anyone who can add up believes that blind billy or eli were bred as floyd papered them, so maybe you missed the theory and evidence in my post about blind billy and eli , and maybe you can tells us about how old mayfield the jealous guy as you say was wrong on that one .

[bolero]

boze quit never heard that before

[bolero]

NQK by the looks of your post it seems like you arethe one trying to run down mayfield ,even
when as it seems that he was right about the dogs mentioned so far in this thread , which
would mean your the jealous one trying to run him down.

Nqk i would agree with you entirely about mayfield being jealous if everytime he said something about the fake peds as mentioned in this thread they all turned out to be just in his imagination, but you know who started those rumours about don being jealous? the guys who owned the dogs he was talking about i wonder why?,and guess what don was right most of the time, so maybe
your perception of a jealous man depends on whos telling you that, i dont think anyone who can add up believes that blind billy or eli were bred as floyd papered them, so maybe you missed the theory and evidence in my post about blind billy and eli , and maybe you can tells us about how old mayfield the jealous guy as you say was wrong on that one .
ur not stating facts just mayfields rambles i would beleive floyds word over his u bought mayfields bullshit and im sorry nut that was your fault not ours mayfield could of lied about the dates and everything and he probably didmayfield was a conditioner as a breeder he sucked and those are the facts period,

[projectx]

ur not stating facts just mayfields rambles i would beleive floyds word over his u bought mayfields bullshit and im sorry nut that was your fault not ours mayfield could of lied about the dates and everything and he probably didmayfield was a conditioner as a breeder he sucked and those are the facts period,

BOlero you must not read to good or you would realsie it wasnt just mayfield saying that he didnt believe how blind billy was bred or that eli was bred the way floyd said he was, FLOYD BOUDREAUXS OWN WORDS MAKE HIM THE LIAR, floyd stated blind billy was born in 1952 , well dibo was born on the 21 of march 1951 and tudor never got him on his yard untill he was around 3 years old and them didnt breed him immediatley , so even if tudor had bred him the day he arrived that would be in 1954 so how the hell can he have sired blind billy who was born according to floyds own holy words in 1952 if tudor never even got dibo untill 1954 you tell me that .
And another thing i asked you what did mayfiled lie to you about for you to call him a lair ? you still havent said anything apart from deny the obvious which is that it was floyd who lied about blind billy and that means that eli is also a lie and most probably bred exactly like mayfield said and as practically anyone with half a brain , so you go on believing a lie thats what i call dumb .Now lets get this straight, most people having read and looked at the evidence such as it is in the matter of tombstones true breeding /blind billys true or unknown breeding and ELIs true breeding , have come to the conclusion that mayfield was more than likely correct ,so now who were you calling a lair again bolero ? oh yea mayfield thats right the guy that was proven correct thats who, now why dont you open your eyes and accept the truth even if it means that mayfield was not lying but floyd was , it wont kill you its called the truth it actually frees you from the chains you have been living in for many years if and by the way once you realise floyd basically stole dons breeding from claiming eli as his own blood, tehn maybe you and some others around here would understand who really was a true breeder and who wasnt , becasue mayfields blood filled the yards of many dogmen , some who were honest and some like floyd who denied it , i repoeat look at the dates that floyds says not mayfield then scractch your head a little and maybe the damn light will come on up there in the place were your brain should be, and maybe if your a man you might want to take back that shit you said about mayfield , but i wont hold my breath for that.

[CYJ]

My bad Bolero. Went back and corrected. I was talking about the Boudreaux' Scrub dog not the Boudreaux' Boze dog. Seems not only Boudreaux but the other Texas dog men etc. bred some quitting dogs in their pedigrees. Still done even today. I no longer have any of my older Magazines. But I believe Carver's Cracker was beat and failed to scratch, Trahan's Rascal dog did as well and some others.

The last living dog that V. Jackson had bred off of from my last bloodline, I was trying to develop. Had some awesome brothers and a beautiful built sibling sister. All got killed either by a very angry next door neighbor, Humane Dyke Society, stolen or drowned in a Texas Flash flood. That last dog was the Jackson's Harley dog. I was not there to see what happen but it was stated the dog quit in short order and barely mouthed the other dog.

Vernon said the dog was rubbed and two more later on, one dying in the kennel box and the other on the way to the Vet. Said he still has the Vet clinic reports showing Nicotine Sulphate. Would mail the reports to me to see for my self. Being that was a good many years back that was a moot point for me. Since I was not there to see for myself is a moot point. If I had felt the dog quit would have disposed of it even if that was the last Mohican. I know there was nothing wrong with his four grand parents. I had checked them pretty good.

Jackson said he went ahead and bred Harley to see if he may could be a producer. Felt he already knew the strengths and weakness of his dogs. Why go buy some one else's possible curs or cull dogs. V. Jackson said he on more than one occasion rode up on some of those dog thieves out on his property. There to steal dogs in the broad day light. Ended up letting a young Mexican dog man live on his property to help him and help watch and care for his remaining dogs.

Said all that to say I am not down on Boudreaux, Mayfield, are anyone else. I had some good dogs and some sorry ones. I was just one brick in the wall and nothing more. I was just a average dog man that liked the sport and did take very good care of my dogs. Kept my dogs healthy and runs clean.

We are all just bricks in the wall. Some may be considered big Concrete Blocks in that Wall. If we fight and bicker to much and demean each other. Not saying anyone has at this point. That wall can come tumbling down real fast.

Mr. Law. Mr. Do Good, Mr. john Q public and the Humane Dyke Society are only too willing, to put some of us bricks in a Jail house wall. LOL This sort of subject will just take us all around and around till we all turn into Butter or was that a brick. LOL Cheers

[bolero]

go by the american game dog times and read whata friend of both men says about eli and blind billy he explains everything and how eli was truly bred

[Foxman]

You guys sure tell and assume lots of stuff. Tombstone was bred like Maloney said. He wasn't always honest but in this case he was. I was there and saw Toot in the pen with Gina hungup and lots of those dogs have her body shape. If I remember correctly Gina was a red brindle dog but it has been years so I could be wrong. That man that had Gina I think she won two fights and that man had lots of winners and his dogs were tested hard. Davis is a dog in question. Yet he could be out of Toot. Who knows on that one. His dam was in the pen with two different males being bred. Charley Adkisson and I went out there one monday she was in with toot. When we went out there on thursday the dam was in with a De cordova dog called Rusty. When Maloney had Toot and Genia. There were no pure Tudor females at that time at his home. I know I was there. Gina was a two time winner. Don Maloney had a friend that he was real close with. I saw him several times at Maloney's home. He wasn't a bulldog man. He told me that him and Maloney went to Diffenbach's home to buy a pup. Diffenbach was gone so he ask Don which one he like and he pointed a Toot. So I grabbed it up and carried it to the truck. He said that is the truth about Toot. Maloney told him you need to keep your mouth shut.The first six years Toot was registered out of Jeff and then later on he was registered out of Spike. I think it was because Diffenbach had died but I'm not sure the true reason. That litter was supposedly off Spike. I got one thng to say to you guys. If you were not there and if you didn't see the breeding you can't say the pedigree is wrong.. No matter what anyone tells you. Don't go around swearing you know because you don't. Mayfield was a nice fellow. He hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better. I had several of those dog right off Nigger and top bred female all but one quit. Maloney and Tommy Sherwood fought two dog for over two hours. Earl liked Sherwood's dog. Maloney told several people that Nigger was off that dog of Sherwoods. He said Earl brought Nigger's Dam over and bred to that Brindle dog of Sherwoods. Nigger threw lots of Brindle dogs. So it might be true or it might not. I didn't see the4 breeding so who knows if it true or not. What a bunch of silly assumptions you guys swear to. I'm done

[projectx]

go by the american game dog times and read whata friend of both men says about eli and blind billy he explains everything and how eli was truly bred

Bolero why dont you post the story , and while your at it post the interview with floyd so we can see what his words say ,not a friend , the man himslef , but like i said some folks what to believe regardless of the evidence or common sense
and it looks like your one of them bolero, you have floyds own words the times jan feb issue 1989 , but you dont want to
belive floyds own words and the overwhelming view of the dogmen who had a brain back then with no axe to grind one way or another , but instead you want to belive a story from a friend of floyds rather than floyds own words , cos floyds words prove him a lair on blind billy and eli and you must not want to see it which is pretty sad .

[projectx]

You guys sure tell and assume lots of stuff. Tombstone was bred like Maloney said. He wasn't always honest but in this case he was. I was there and saw Toot in the pen with Gina hungup and lots of those dogs have her body shape. If I remember correctly Gina was a red brindle dog but it has been years so I could be wrong. That man that had Gina I think she won two fights and that man had lots of winners and his dogs were tested hard. Davis is a dog in question. Yet he could be out of Toot. Who knows on that one. His dam was in the pen with two different males being bred. Charley Adkisson and I went out there one monday she was in with toot. When we went out there on thursday the dam was in with a De cordova dog called Rusty. When Maloney had Toot and Genia. There were no pure Tudor females at that time at his home. I know I was there. Gina was a two time winner. Don Maloney had a friend that he was real close with. I saw him several times at Maloney's home. He wasn't a bulldog man. He told me that him and Maloney went to Diffenbach's home to buy a pup. Diffenbach was gone so he ask Don which one he like and he pointed a Toot. So I grabbed it up and carried it to the truck. He said that is the truth about Toot. Maloney told him you need to keep your mouth shut.The first six years Toot was registered out of Jeff and then later on he was registered out of Spike. I think it was because Diffenbach had died but I'm not sure the true reason. That litter was supposedly off Spike. I got one thng to say to you guys. If you were not there and if you didn't see the breeding you can't say the pedigree is wrong.. No matter what anyone tells you. Don't go around swearing you know because you don't. Mayfield was a nice fellow. He hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better. I had several of those dog right off Nigger and top bred female all but one quit. Maloney and Tommy Sherwood fought two dog for over two hours. Earl liked Sherwood's dog. Maloney told several people that Nigger was off that dog of Sherwoods. He said Earl brought Nigger's Dam over and bred to that Brindle dog of Sherwoods. Nigger threw lots of Brindle dogs. So it might be true or it might not. I didn't see the4 breeding so who knows if it true or not. What a bunch of silly assumptions you guys swear to. I'm done

Randy your a right in that we should never say that something is for sure, but neither should anyone, tombstone may be out of gina, but maloney had baby on his yard , and i think you know the deal he had with earl about anything form his pure females, and maloney was known as a slippery one , so who knows, but then we have an audio tape which i have heard
with mayfield and maloney just after mayfield got tombstone from ron , and on that audio tape maloney tells mayfield, (well hes mommas the same as the old nigger dog you got don, then some few minutes later he must realsie and changes it to the gina bitch .
Now im not going to say your msitaken randy cos i wasnt there when maloney bred toot to whatever female, and he may as you said have had gina on his yard at the time , but that dont prove he bred to her , infact like most folks who understand breeding as i know you do , and jack does and mayfield did, the breeding to gina didnt make sense, but the toot baby one did, it was the right way to breed them dogs and the sensible way, but maybe he did breed to gina if she was on his yard.

Now on another tape from a call mayfield had from a dogman in arkansas i think , who don didnt know personally and who had called him up to talk about the dogs, this man talked about how when gina was supposed to whelping tombstone on maloneys yard she was on another mans yard in another state, which of course was to late for mayfield as tombstone was dead and could not breed to him anymore.SO its all about what makes sense and circimstanstial evidence , but i tend to favour baby as the dam. but as you say anythings possible.

Randy im sure you read most if not all of the posts on this thread ,so i will assume you read mine about how i belive that floyd
lied about blind billy , and as such would mean that elis pedigree is also fake, and that mayfield is more than likely correct about both of those dogs, unknown and true heritage.
Floyds own words and timeline of dobs for both billy and his sire dibo along with the facts we know about when tudor got dibo would make it immposible for dibo to have been the sire of blind billy , and i know it hurts many dogmen who have had
a run in with mayfield in the past to say yes he was correct on something ,but i think that with the blind billy /eli story ,no one needs to be a freind or enemy of either man to see which one is lying or incorrect , floyd does that to himself and i would hope randy that you are able to agree with that even if it hurts to say so.

As for you saying that mayfield hid lots of happenings and twisted the truth to make his yard look better , well why dont you explain what you mean, im sure don was no angel, but i dont think he needed to lie about his yard or how his nigger dogs were bred , and we heard how maloney was a jealous man and started lots of strories about nigger , and we can be far more sure of how nigger is bred which i think is well known and maloney as i mentioned earlier even tells mayfield that tombstone has the same dam as his nigger dog , which was baby so that kind of shows maloney for the kind of man he was , which from all accounts he wasnt a very honest guy and petty sneaky type of guy, but thats the dog game .

[No Quarter Kennel]

NQK by the looks of your post it seems like you arethe one trying to run down mayfield ,even
when as it seems that he was right about the dogs mentioned so far in this thread , which
would mean your the jealous one trying to run him down.

Nqk i would agree with you entirely about mayfield being jealous if everytime he said something about the fake peds as mentioned in this thread they all turned out to be just in his imagination, but you know who started those rumours about don being jealous? the guys who owned the dogs he was talking about i wonder why?,and guess what don was right most of the time, so maybe
your perception of a jealous man depends on whos telling you that, i dont think anyone who can add up believes that blind billy or eli were bred as floyd papered them, so maybe you missed the theory and evidence in my post about blind billy and eli , and maybe you can tells us about how old mayfield the jealous guy as you say was wrong on that one .

I don't give a shit how blind billy or eli are bred. I could NOT, in any way, care any less than I already do about ANY dog's breeding that happened 20+ years ago. Not a single one. All I can focus on are the dogs on my yard and the yards of other men I trust and believe. I haven't read hardly anything you've typed on all of this subject b/c I honestly don't care. I skim over what others on this thread type as they are easier to interpret and comprehend. Again, I don't care about the dog's breedings, so therefore, I couldn't care less about what Mayfield has said about anything other than conditioning. That's the only area I am interested in when it comes to something Don Mayfield has said.

You are obviously insanely in love with Don Mayfild and that's your right. Have at it. For me, it doesn't matter what the subject matter is. When a man makes so many attempts to say so many negative things about other people, then I lose respect for them. It gets old man. Every time you talk to a dude and all he does is run others down. Why is that? What is the source of that? Think about it.

Show me where I said something negative about DM as well. I haven't. If someone isn't licking his crack and thinking his jibber jabber that's so hard to understand some times is the gospel, then you think they are being negative. I don't like him b/c he's an extremely negative human being and I have no time for that.

"Ain't nobody got time fa-dat"

Don Mayfield is the greatest Dog Man that ever lived. He's the most honest man that ever lived - more honest than Jesus. He's undefeated, undisputed and KING OF THE WORLD! Every good dog ever bred NOT by Don is a LIE and their pedigrees really all go back to Don Mayfield. Don Mayfield INVENTED the Pit Bull Dog. Don Mayfield - Heavy Weight Beard Champion of The World.

I LOVE DON MAYFIELD.

There - you happy?........BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Merry Freakin Christmas

[No Quarter Kennel]

ProjectX is a liar.
He doesn't have a single audio tape with ANYONE'S voice talking about anything.

I don't believe for one second you have any tapes with anything on them. I think you are making all of this up 100%.

Prove otherwise Truth Teller!

[CYJ]

Thank You very much Foxman for your input. I thought you were still a member on here. I know you knew and lived right there with most of those dog men. Mr. DeCordova had a lot more influence with those dogs around that area than most will credit him to. Cheers

[Foxman]

I'm done. To many so called dreamers on here. What ever they heard from whoever makes it so. They act like they knew those old timers and knew they were honest. Dream on. Did you ever see the series House, Although it was said on a TV series. It is true the statement 'Everybody Lies' You are praising Lawbreakers, Potheads and Bootleggers and you swear they are honest. You have more faith in them than I ever did. What does it matter what was out of what at this point. What does it matter what quit and what didn't quit back then. Genetics is tricky and can't be counted on very often. You will believe what you want to even if I do know the truth. See ya. Randy

[projectx]

I don't give a shit how blind billy or eli are bred. I could NOT, in any way, care any less than I already do about ANY dog's breeding that happened 20+ years ago. Not a single one. All I can focus on are the dogs on my yard and the yards of other men I trust and believe. I haven't read hardly anything you've typed on all of this subject b/c I honestly don't care. I skim over what others on this thread type as they are easier to interpret and comprehend. Again, I don't care about the dog's breedings, so therefore, I couldn't care less about what Mayfield has said about anything other than conditioning. That's the only area I am interested in when it comes to something Don Mayfield has said.

You are obviously insanely in love with Don Mayfild and that's your right. Have at it. For me, it doesn't matter what the subject matter is. When a man makes so many attempts to say so many negative things about other people, then I lose respect for them. It gets old man. Every time you talk to a dude and all he does is run others down. Why is that? What is the source of that? Think about it.

Show me where I said something negative about DM as well. I haven't. If someone isn't licking his crack and thinking his jibber jabber that's so hard to understand some times is the gospel, then you think they are being negative. I don't like him b/c he's an extremely negative human being and I have no time for that.

"Ain't nobody got time fa-dat"

Don Mayfield is the greatest Dog Man that ever lived. He's the most honest man that ever lived - more honest than Jesus. He's undefeated, undisputed and KING OF THE WORLD! Every good dog ever bred NOT by Don is a LIE and their pedigrees really all go back to Don Mayfield. Don Mayfield INVENTED the Pit Bull Dog. Don Mayfield - Heavy Weight Beard Champion of The World.

I LOVE DON MAYFIELD.

There - you happy?........BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Merry Freakin Christmas

NQK you can say what you like about me, but this thread was and is about dogs with fake pedsigres or at leasts ones with a known dubioius heritage, and as such if my mentioning them it is badmouthing them , that unfortunatley goes wth the territory.If you read my posts on this thread before writing you might have seen that the only one i would put my hand on my heart and say is undoubltedly fake is the blind billy and eli peds, with tombstone or the others its more a case of weighing up the facts to hand and the word of the ones around back then and decide which you think makes more sense , and i think i have said that although i tend to favour baby as tombstones dam , anything is possible, so maybe instead of you trying to bad mouth mayfield with no reason at all apart from the fact we disagree on hammonds so you want to hate on mayfield becasue of it ,even when the subject of the truth of such an important bloodline in the history of this bred as the ELI bloodline is up for discussion , you would rather not talk about that but waste your time trying to get at me by bad mouthing mayfield instead of taking an interest in the thread and maybe thinking about that, and what makes me laugh is that in your 2 posts , both of which have said nothing on any of the dogs and all they are is a rant about me and mayfield ,when maybe if you were a serious breeder as you say you are , you might have said something about it ,but of course that would mean having to agree with mayfield on something without sarcasm which you arent man enough to do are you.
Now as for my audio tapes i have a few of them and for you to call me a lair when you have no reason other than not having ever known of them or probably ever talked to mayfield as your obviously a greenhorn regardless of how long youve been breeding dogs, but the fact that i do have them and only wish i had all 400 of them and what i have said is on the tapes is infact on them ,and im sure that i am not the only one who got audio tapes from mayfield ,but i will call cyj and play the audio to him over the phone and then we can see whos a lair , and maybe the next dog i mention will be a little closer to home for you ,then you can get mad , but sometimes the only way a blind man can see is if you force his eyes wide open ,and by god yours need some serious opening thats for sure.

Now NQK when i prove i have the tapes , i will expect a full appology from you which i want you to confrim on this thread before i call a member on this thread who i have never talked to before but i asked him for his number as he seems to be very knwledgable about the game, and i would be happy to call him and he can confirm that he has infact heard the tapes.
Then i expect you will be a man and say SORRY to me,and if you confirm that you will say sorry when confiramtion of the tapes is given , i will go ahead and call this member who i was hoping to talk to anyway so i hope he wont mind if he can do that .

Now NQK by knowing that i am not a lair when you get confirmation of it, that will of course mean that whether i am correct in my beliefs or not in anything i have said to you before today or from this day forward and whether you agree with it or not i hope you can
get you to the realisation that what i have and im saying to you and others is not being said to take sides for the sake of it just becasue i happen to agree with mayfield or disagree with floyd or anyone else for that matter, its becasue i happen to think it has some truth to it ,but not just from blind faith , but from good old common sense and a little research to as best as possible say what i say , and whether you will agree or disagree with me on matters either past present or future , i have never lied or tried to deseive you or anyone else , so in that alone i hope you will never insult me again as you have done about the audios and call me a liar ,because i am not , and when as in the case of an obvious lie's like blind billy or any others that may follow on this thread, i hope you have the courage to admit you see it even if it means agreeing with me and mayfield and maybe having to disagree with one closer to you .

[CYJ]

Fellows you might as well suck it up. Mr. R. Fox is right. You got to live in today and do your best. Anymore to be said on this topic is a moot point. My Pit Bull Bible just arrived in the mail. Going to do something productive and start reading it.

Jack, the book arrived in a timely fashion and was well packaged. Thank You for your time in writing something of sound value. To help young dog men get a good solid start in the game. Wish I had a book like this back when I got in the dogs. Cheers

[projectx]

I'm done. To many so called dreamers on here. What ever they heard from whoever makes it so. They act like they knew those old timers and knew they were honest. Dream on. Did you ever see the series House, Although it was said on a TV series. It is true the statement 'Everybody Lies' You are praising Lawbreakers, Potheads and Bootleggers and you swear they are honest. You have more faith in them than I ever did. What does it matter what was out of what at this point. What does it matter what quit and what didn't quit back then. Genetics is tricky and can't be counted on very often. You will believe what you want to even if I do know the truth. See ya. Randy

Randy i dont think anyone is saying that we have to belive anyone in particular blindly , but after my reply to your post which i thought was a reasonable one ,asking you and making some reasonable points ,some in agreement and some not so, that rather than come in on a thread and make some statments about the sujbect and throw a few stories of your own in there about other possiblilties which is fine ,but to not want to have a debate about it but and to just have to believe exactly what you say or your not playing is wrong ,and i agree with you that 40 years on it isnt going to change the world ,whehter floyd lied about billy and eli, or what dog quit, etc , but dont you think it would be better to in someway try to make sense of these things were and when we can , rather than jsut avoid them as if they never happend .

Maybe you dont want to admit that its more than likely floyd was lying about billy ,based on the timeline alone regardless of any hearsay or other factors includng mayifelds theory, but you are a friend of floyds and not really mayfields friend , so i understand you not wanting to take sides, but this i think is the probelm we have with the dogs, everyone would rather keep quiet, when actually it would benefit the breed and the men whos reputation has either been made better or in mayfields case called him crazy for it, when infact randy i think it would be fair to give him the credit for at least making the breeding that produced eli and not floyd as that isnt right whosevers friend you or i am its still wrong and the peds should reflect it,especially when more than a serious doubt exisits as in blind billys case ,which would also mean eli is not bred as pedigreed and i know if that was my friend or family memebr that they called mad and jealous , i would want that put right wouldnt you randy.

[CrazyRed]

Randy i dont think anyone is saying that we have to belive anyone in particular blindly , but after my reply to your post which i thought was a reasonable one ,asking you and making some reasonable points ,some in agreement and some not so, that rather than come in on a thread and make some statments about the sujbect and throw a few stories of your own in there about other possiblilties which is fine ,but to not want to have a debate about it but and to just have to believe exactly what you say or your not playing is wrong ,and i agree with you that 40 years on it isnt going to change the world ,whehter floyd lied about billy and eli, or what dog quit, etc , but dont you think it would be better to in someway try to make sense of these things were and when we can , rather than jsut avoid them as if they never happend .

Maybe you dont want to admit that its more than likely floyd was lying about billy ,based on the timeline alone regardless of any hearsay or other factors includng mayifelds theory, but you are a friend of floyds and not really mayfields friend , so i understand you not wanting to take sides, but this i think is the probelm we have with the dogs, everyone would rather keep quiet, when actually it would benefit the breed and the men whos reputation has either been made better or in mayfields case called him crazy for it, when infact randy i think it would be fair to give him the credit for at least making the breeding that produced eli and not floyd as that isnt right whosevers friend you or i am its still wrong and the peds should reflect it,especially when more than a serious doubt exisits as in blind billys case ,which would also mean eli is not bred as pedigreed and i know if that was my friend or family memebr that they called mad and jealous , i would want that put right wouldnt you randy.

I think you are right, I don’t see the harm in talking about it and comparing what folks know. I was told once you find the key to unlock Pandora’s box you will probably end up wishing you didn’t. We know one thing for certain, aint no difference in men of yesterday compared to men of today. They all lie, some folks will lie and some folks will swear by that lie. I think Mountain man was one of if not the only to publicly state they would keep a dog that quit and just try him another day.

Project I think the theory of Eli and how he came about is valid, I've been honored to be able to speak to a few men that were around back then. Yes they all agree that Eli was off Ch Cry Baby, but at that is where Mayfield's credit for Eli just about stops. He did the litter that produced him, but it was Mr. Clemmons who took his gyp and bred to Eli to make him now famous after his 3 famous children. It was Floyd's work after those kids and their kids and so on that made Eli as famous as he is now. Folks that seen Eli don’t speak highly of him at all, they say he was pretty much average and was nothing to speak of until his kids hit the scene. That's where his fame took off.

I know a few guys who used some of the Mayfield blood and 20 years ago they had some great success but even those guys now with their dogs which still have some Mayfield blood in it have minimized using it. When I ask a friend who has Mayfield dogs for over 20 years back to the Sunshine stuff and stuff dome from Mr. Andress and others, about Maverick or Banjo or any other dog being Mayfield bred and he said simply from his experiences with the lines for 2 decades he can't see any similarities. He said especially with the Maverick dogs because everything about them is different from their change of build to their strengths and weaknesses. I've had some Maverick dogs for some time and can't see it either. One thing about his Mayfield dogs that have remained the same is their ability to bite (which he doesn’t breed for as primary) but also their ability to finish and want to finish. His dogs have stayed true to that but that's just his experiences. Also his dogs body style has been the same, not midget but short dogs with thick structure and great natural strength and wind. Where the maverick dogs I've had and the dogs he has had, have been longer dogs with more leg more head style or wrestling types of dogs, not with a bunch of mouth. Which a lot depended on what the bottom of it was, but his Mayfield dogs have been power dogs with mouth and want to finish.

Again could be just what he got and what they were able to produce. I know with a few of his associates they also got the same style of dogs and I seen that on 3 different yards from the Midwest to the South. You could be absolutely correct with your theory and could be absolutely wrong, but we can give the nod for all those around saying Eli was off Cry Baby but that's not where all his fame came from. So what exactly credit is Mayfield missing that he deserves? Eli became the man when his 3 kids were seen as badass dogs and then Ch Tommy and some other dogs. They were reminiscent of the Henry dogs that Tudor and others had success with those black powerhouses.

[CYJ]

I just got off the phone after a long talk with Projectx. About the dogs and many good war stories to boot. He has some good bred dogs and he does have those tapes. He let me listen to one of them, was interesting to listen to. Wish him and all the rest of our members Merry Christmas and good luck with their dogs. How ever they may or may not be bred. Like Phil Robertson from Duck Dynasty said; Lets have fun and be Happy, Happy, Happy. Cheers.

[projectx]

I think you are right, I don’t see the harm in talking about it and comparing what folks know. I was told once you find the key to unlock Pandora’s box you will probably end up wishing you didn’t. We know one thing for certain, aint no difference in men of yesterday compared to men of today. They all lie, some folks will lie and some folks will swear by that lie. I think Mountain man was one of if not the only to publicly state they would keep a dog that quit and just try him another day.

Project I think the theory of Eli and how he came about is valid, I've been honored to be able to speak to a few men that were around back then. Yes they all agree that Eli was off Ch Cry Baby, but at that is where Mayfield's credit for Eli just about stops. He did the litter that produced him, but it was Mr. Clemmons who took his gyp and bred to Eli to make him now famous after his 3 famous children. It was Floyd's work after those kids and their kids and so on that made Eli as famous as he is now. Folks that seen Eli don’t speak highly of him at all, they say he was pretty much average and was nothing to speak of until his kids hit the scene. That's where his fame took off.

I know a few guys who used some of the Mayfield blood and 20 years ago they had some great success but even those guys now with their dogs which still have some Mayfield blood in it have minimized using it. When I ask a friend who has Mayfield dogs for over 20 years back to the Sunshine stuff and stuff dome from Mr. Andress and others, about Maverick or Banjo or any other dog being Mayfield bred and he said simply from his experiences with the lines for 2 decades he can't see any similarities. He said especially with the Maverick dogs because everything about them is different from their change of build to their strengths and weaknesses. I've had some Maverick dogs for some time and can't see it either. One thing about his Mayfield dogs that have remained the same is their ability to bite (which he doesn’t breed for as primary) but also their ability to finish and want to finish. His dogs have stayed true to that but that's just his experiences. Also his dogs body style has been the same, not midget but short dogs with thick structure and great natural strength and wind. Where the maverick dogs I've had and the dogs he has had, have been longer dogs with more leg more head style or wrestling types of dogs, not with a bunch of mouth. Which a lot depended on what the bottom of it was, but his Mayfield dogs have been power dogs with mouth and want to finish.

Again could be just what he got and what they were able to produce. I know with a few of his associates they also got the same style of dogs and I seen that on 3 different yards from the Midwest to the South. You could be absolutely correct with your theory and could be absolutely wrong, but we can give the nod for all those around saying Eli was off Cry Baby but that's not where all his fame came from. So what exactly credit is Mayfield missing that he deserves? Eli became the man when his 3 kids were seen as badass dogs and then Ch Tommy and some other dogs. They were reminiscent of the Henry dogs that Tudor and others had success with those black powerhouses.

Hi crazyred , first off let me say im not asking that we give mayfield credit for the family that was bred down after the
intial crybaby x cotton breeding that produced ELI, but i do think that he should get the regonition for the breeding
and that he was correct all along that floyd had srewed him over on that litter of ELI'S , which when you think if floyd
handn't lied to mayfiled and told him all the pups had died , then mayfield would have taken the pups home with him and
and without ELI on floyds yard then neither floyd nor clemons could have bred to him and they wouldnt have been able to get the credit and fame for breeding up that ELI family of dogs if he had never been on floyds yard to start with would they.

SO its about time we gave mayfield at least the courtesy to say DON YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. which i think he deserves
just as i think the adba should change the blind billy ped to reflect his unknown heritage and ELI'S true heritage .

As for the maverick dog, i wont go into that now , but there is also some question marks as to that dog , and i will
go into that on another day , but i havent said anything about the maverick dog yet , so you were reading my mind
crazyred but i agree that we should try to see which way the wind is blowing thats for sure.

[Officially Retired]

Guys, this could be an interesting thread if people don't get their panties in a wad.

Try to keep it civil and mature, if possible.

Thanks,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Fellows you might as well suck it up. Mr. R. Fox is right. You got to live in today and do your best. Anymore to be said on this topic is a moot point. My Pit Bull Bible just arrived in the mail. Going to do something productive and start reading it.

Jack, the book arrived in a timely fashion and was well packaged. Thank You for your time in writing something of sound value. To help young dog men get a good solid start in the game. Wish I had a book like this back when I got in the dogs. Cheers


Glad you got is and even gladder you like it :)

Happy Holidays,

Jack

[CrazyRed]

Hi crazyred , first off let me say im not asking that we give mayfield credit for the family that was bred down after the
intial crybaby x cotton breeding that produced ELI, but i do think that he should get the regonition for the breeding
and that he was correct all along that floyd had srewed him over on that litter of ELI'S , which when you think if floyd
handn't lied to mayfiled and told him all the pups had died , then mayfield would have taken the pups home with him and
and without ELI on floyds yard then neither floyd nor clemons could have bred to him and they wouldnt have been able to get the credit and fame for breeding up that ELI family of dogs if he had never been on floyds yard to start with would they.

SO its about time we gave mayfield at least the courtesy to say DON YOU WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG. which i think he deserves
just as i think the adba should change the blind billy ped to reflect his unknown heritage and ELI'S true heritage .

As for the maverick dog, i wont go into that now , but there is also some question marks as to that dog , and i will
go into that on another day , but i havent said anything about the maverick dog yet , so you were reading my mind
crazyred but i agree that we should try to see which way the wind is blowing thats for sure.

I can't wait until you are up to talking about that, but I think it has long been credited to those whether in secret or in mind that Mayfield was correct about Eli being off Cry Baby. Yes I agree had Don took the pups then all of the following probably wouldn't have happened and with that said Eli wouldn't even be famous so what credit what don be looking to take?

Remember he had Tombstone as well, Snake as well and Hank. Does he deserve the credit for those dogs that became famous? If he want's that credit he has to take the credit for the folks who constantly screamed and yelled at him for spending tens of thousands with him and got curs down from his line as well. That's the big difference, and I've had dogs from Floyd that weren't worth a cats piss. Yet still you don't hear people bashing him for the curs they got you hear people praising for the great one that they got from him. Most folks that bash Floyd for the curs don't even own Eli dogs or never got a dog from Floyd. Same as with Jack and most other good breeders. Folks that bash typically never owned dogs from that man but talk about the curs. A good friend of mines spent over 7k on dogs from Mayfield and his protege at the time Kershner and not one of those dogs made the grade. So you got to remember the bad comes along with the good my friend.

I think Mayfield needed to reconsider his approach when it came to getting credit, you got to remember you catch more flies with honey then you do with salt.

I think he didn't feel as appreciated in his time but the generation after him and still to this day hold his name with high regard. Look at his peers and most of them had their moment with fame, Floyd took off with his Eli fame, Bobby with Bullyson fame, PP with Tombstone x Bolio fame, Crenshaw with Honeybunch, Baker Davis with Boomerang, Maloney with Toot, VJ with Hank, Wood's, Hyde etc and Maurice as in conversation as Greatest Breeder ever, he feels a little slighted. All these men had their own dogs and folks won with their dogs and they took turns as being the top breeder here or there where Mayfield didn't take off here, overseas he did but not in his own backyard and I think that got to him a little bit.

[projectx]

I can't wait until you are up to talking about that, but I think it has long been credited to those whether in secret or in mind that Mayfield was correct about Eli being off Cry Baby. Yes I agree had Don took the pups then all of the following probably wouldn't have happened and with that said Eli wouldn't even be famous so what credit what don be looking to take?

Remember he had Tombstone as well, Snake as well and Hank. Does he deserve the credit for those dogs that became famous? If he want's that credit he has to take the credit for the folks who constantly screamed and yelled at him for spending tens of thousands with him and got curs down from his line as well. That's the big difference, and I've had dogs from Floyd that weren't worth a cats piss. Yet still you don't hear people bashing him for the curs they got you hear people praising for the great one that they got from him. Most folks that bash Floyd for the curs don't even own Eli dogs or never got a dog from Floyd. Same as with Jack and most other good breeders. Folks that bash typically never owned dogs from that man but talk about the curs. A good friend of mines spent over 7k on dogs from Mayfield and his protege at the time Kershner and not one of those dogs made the grade. So you got to remember the bad comes along with the good my friend.

I think Mayfield needed to reconsider his approach when it came to getting credit, you got to remember you catch more flies with honey then you do with salt.

I think he didn't feel as appreciated in his time but the generation after him and still to this day hold his name with high regard. Look at his peers and most of them had their moment with fame, Floyd took off with his Eli fame, Bobby with Bullyson fame, PP with Tombstone x Bolio fame, Crenshaw with Honeybunch, Baker Davis with Boomerang, Maloney with Toot, VJ with Hank, Wood's, Hyde etc and Maurice as in conversation as Greatest Breeder ever, he feels a little slighted. All these men had their own dogs and folks won with their dogs and they took turns as being the top breeder here or there where Mayfield didn't take off here, overseas he did but not in his own backyard and I think that got to him a little bit.

Hi crazyred , i will get onto the maverick story later , but im not saying mayfield wanted any credit , i am saying that its
right that now we know about blind billy and ELI, that mayfield should be given some credit for that breeding and for haivng been correct all along ,instead of being called crazy and jealous, by people either directly involved with the dogs he talked
of as being bred incorrectly or their followers .

As for you saying that had don taken them pups home that ELI probably wouldnt have been famous seems way off base, lets not forget don made the breeding he knew how the dogs were bred and his intention was raise school and match
them had they shown good, and then of course breed them , and as don was at least the dogman that floyd ever was and
probably even better , then i dont think ELI's fame or his offsprings would have gone unnoticed in dons hands ,and at least
the peds would have been correct so that anyone getting those dogs could breed them with a full knowledge of their true
heritage ,whcih of course floyd never allowed to happen .

I dont think i am asking that we give mayfiled credit for tombstone , i have only said that mayfield was sure that tombstone
was not out of the gina bitch, but out of tudors baby, and gave his reasons for that ,but mayfield never tried to take credit
for him and im not suggesting that either, all mayfield was saying was that the pedigree in his opinion wasnt correct .The snake dog and hank i havent mentioned but mayfield bred the dog with kennedy and was his dog and he was bred and produced some exceptional dogs so yes now that you bring it up i dont see why mayfield shouldnt get credit for a dog he bred and owned or at least had a big hand in his existence , im sure CYJ can tell about snake also as he was bred to his tina bitch and produced very well.Hank again as you mentioned it was bred by mayfield and was made famous by v jackson and
i wouldnt agrue that v jackson made hank famous but the source should never be overlooked or underestimated , and i can tell you this, that don would always give earl credit for being instrumental in his breeding program , which produced many good dogs like hank and snake and all of his mayfield family of dogs , but he never put himself above earl, he always gave earl the credit for being able to breed them , which i think shows how different don was to so many who the day the get a dog
from a breeder like earl for example , and think that the next litter is all about them ,and forget the years of work put in
for them from the man before them.

As for your friend who spent a lot of money with mayfield dogs , well you mentioned kershner , so i will assume this wasnt from dons yard when don was still breeding himself but form kershner in illinois. Although kershner had dogs from mayfields breeding , depending on when your friend got them would make a big difference in the animals. Kershner at the beginging
did have a decent pool of mayfield genes, in other words a mix of the genes from mayfields family, but he never really had the older stuff that don still had before the mid 80s, and to my mind dons best blood on kershners yard came down from
dons old dibo dog , which kershner never had much of on his yard and never bred enough of those dogs with dibo blood
so his mayfield family was not as strong as it could have been , had he been able to get more of the older blood or bred up
more of the dogs that had dons dibo dogs indside then yes, but kershners best dogs came when he crossed the aligator blood into
his mayfield dogs , that was to my mind better , but it would be interesting to see how your friends dogs were bred , i think i can guess , but would be nice to see .

I totaly agree with you that mayfield didnt feel appreciated , but he took that as normal, he would say that when you are at the top of the mountian, the others will always try to push from it, and its very hard to get the respect you deserve while your still at the top.The funny thing is that earl tudor felt the same way , in one audio i have , earl tells mayfield that
(THEY NEVER DID GIVE ME NO RESPECT DON) , and he even went on to talk about a man who put out a book back in earls time when earl was the n01 dogman around , and earl says (,DON YOU KNOW HE NEVER EVEN MENTIONED MY NAME ONCE CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT DON), so things never change i suppose , anyway take care crazyred and you and everyone else on here have a happy christmas ok.

[Foxman]

An example of pedigrees is as follows. My wife and I were both raised in Oklahoma. Both sides of our family tree traced her and I both back to two different indian tribes. It is 5 generation on her 6 on me. We decided to send in our Dna to this place that has all the tribes markers for DNA on file. I do not remember the cost but I think it was $300 each. It came back with no indian in our family tree. We were both 100% European. When I told my family they all laughed and didn't get excited about the error. My wife's family was different. They got mad and called us liers and said that place was wrong. Why don't a bunch of you guys get together and see. There is a place that it can be sorted out at. If two people have the two bloodlines and have kept them faily pure. You can see if their connected. One side will be mad the other will say it is a lie. Just warning ahead of time. All those stories may be a lie some may be true. I personally do not care what anyone believes. Mayfield or Boudreaux didn't have a monopoly on all the good dogs. There were good ones all over the place. Boudreaux and his friends beat Mayfield Twice. Did you guys know that? I was at one of the fights. Mayfield was one of the greatest conditioners back then. Did any of you ever wonder why Mayfield would send Pit General to Wimberly to condition. That is the biggest money fight and the most important fight. Yet Mayfield said he had to condition a bitch. Which was for less money and wasn't a big deal. I had a man who was a friend of Mayfield's call me ahead of the Pit General fight and He said. Bet everything you can the fix is on. Now don't go telling people I said the fix is on. I'm not saying the fix is on. I'm just saying I got a call. I decided not to even go after I got that tip. I like it when both sides have an chance. Just in case that was true and it might not be. Randy Fox

[projectx]

An example of pedigrees is as follows. My wife and I were both raised in Oklahoma. Both sides of our family tree traced her and I both back to two different indian tribes. It is 5 generation on her 6 on me. We decided to send in our Dna to this place that has all the tribes markers for DNA on file. I do not remember the cost but I think it was $300 each. It came back with no indian in our family tree. We were both 100% European. When I told my family they all laughed and didn't get excited about the error. My wife's family was different. They got mad and called us liers and said that place was wrong. Why don't a bunch of you guys get together and see. There is a place that it can be sorted out at. If two people have the two bloodlines and have kept them faily pure. You can see if their connected. One side will be mad the other will say it is a lie. Just warning ahead of time. All those stories may be a lie some may be true. I personally do not care what anyone believes. Mayfield or Boudreaux didn't have a monopoly on all the good dogs. There were good ones all over the place. Boudreaux and his friends beat Mayfield Twice. Did you guys know that? I was at one of the fights. Mayfield was one of the greatest conditioners back then. Did any of you ever wonder why Mayfield would send Pit General to Wimberly to condition. That is the biggest money fight and the most important fight. Yet Mayfield said he had to condition a bitch. Which was for less money and wasn't a big deal. I had a man who was a friend of Mayfield's call me ahead of the Pit General fight and He said. Bet everything you can the fix is on. Now don't go telling people I said the fix is on. I'm not saying the fix is on. I'm just saying I got a call. I decided not to even go after I got that tip. I like it when both sides have an chance. Just in case that was true and it might not be. Randy Fox

Randy i dont know why you dont want to say much about the bind billy dog and i understand you have a side to take and i said that no one can be sure about some dogs like tombstone, but i looked at what evidence there is ,and of course the audio tapes which also give you an insight but its all about opinions , and even with tombstone your say with conviction that gina was on maloneys yard and that there were no pure tudor bitches like baby there , but maybe they were , but who knows if gina was or wasnt , but when weighing up the evidence , and that includes the audio tapes i came to the conclusion that it was more likely that baby was the dam, but anything is possible.But today i listenend to the audio again and i had forgotten who
the man was that was supposed to have had gina on his yard when gina was supposed to be on maloneys yard but i can now tell you that it was bob wallace, and the man who told mayfield this on the audio was the man who campiagned grch 35 for most of his fights put up the forefits and conditioned the dog(no not rushin bill) this man also ,had involement in little bear and sweet pea and was from arkansa and bob was his friend and had told him about gina being on his yard at the time.Mayfield had never heard that before and tells this man that if bob wallace said that then he would believe it, as he would beilive just about anything bob had to say about anything like that , and if bob said something like that he would be confident it was true.Now randy you may be right, but when it comes to blind billy , theres no doubt, but you seem to avoid saying anything that might go against floyd ,but i dont think i have ever seen a post of yours either here or on any forum where you dont try to run mayfield down as you have done in your last post.
RANDY not all of us dropped from the sky yesterday , so to say things like mayfield had wimberly conditon pit general ,and trying
to somehow make it seem like he couldnt condition dogs so he had to have other people condition for him , when you know that don had many people help him condition his dogs, including wimberly and others, and he taught many of them how to condition dogs, but folks seem to forget that dont they randy, and the reason he had guys like wimberly help him condition his dogs , was becasue it was his full time work , mayfield had left the day job he had at a hotel in dallas and dog fighting was his income and don himslef tells about how he would work dogs around the clock with guys like wimberely and others when he had many dogs being conditioned at the same time, so nice try randy better luck next time with the smear job.

Now for sneaky dig number 2 , you say how floyd beat don 2 times and then say I BET YOU DIDNT KNOW THAT , as if mayfield losing a match was a state secret or that don never admitted losing a match when he did , and again don himself talks about his wins and his losses ,hell he lost to stinson and glover and others , so what its no secret randy , his record is out there and its not a perfect one but a darn sight better than most hell maybe even better than yours randy .

Randy you can hate all you like , you have been doing it for years to don, yet you stick up for a known sneak like maloney and just about the world and his brother can see that floyd lied about billy and eli but your avoiding the answer,which aint very game of you is it randy .

Sneaky dig no 3 saying there was a fix in with pit general, ok now i know of a fix in the bullyson sir match but if their was a fix in in favour of general , then you can only be talking about the 2 fights he had , one against fitzwaters duke and freddie jones black bart.Now im not saying you never got a call sayng that , but it doesnt make sense in this instance, but maybe
like many conversations we have , some folks want to make you think and do one think so they tell you another, and maybe if you were told that it was for a reason like that , but now im going to try and explain why a fix seems a riddiculous
statement to make, and you couldnt have chosen a less believable story than that one randy if you tried.

Now we have the beauty of hindsight as we all know about pit general and his fights , but in my expierience if i wanted to put a fix in for a sure thing, then i would firstly make sure that the dog i was matching into had already quit ,as the sir dog had already done a few times
before he was matched against bullyson.Now the duke dog was a very well bred dog , and was never known before to quit or make any bad moves, and duke took his death never taking his eyes off pit general so even though mayfield hoped general would win just like purdue and fitzwater hoped duke might win , when any kind of fix is made your going to make sure a dog isnt game enough to take his death if your looking for a fix .OK now lets get onto possible fix n02
and black bart v pit general, well this again could never have happened or been true , bart was a killing dog and had done just that in his two matches , and don wasnt sure just like against duke what the outcome would be , and bart was another well bred family dog , and he also took his death against general , so randy whether you ever did get a phone call
or not , the talk of a fix is utter hogwash , and rather than come up with things like that , you must have realised that was hogwash , for the reasons i have just explained that you must also have realsied it, if not at the time of this supposed phone call , but certianly today all these years later knowing how the matches went and what dogs they were , but i like how you always finish by saying and it might be true or it might not, lol randy you like to smear without the meat and potatoes added to it , but i say to everyone use your common sense and your nose in life and you wont make to many mistakes and you generally see the bullshit from the truth as with that story.

[S_B]

Randy Fox is Awesome!!!

Projectx, I think Randy said more than once, he could care less about Blind Billy one way or the other. But you have raised interesting points. I would love to participate more, but I know nothing about Boudreaux, Blind Billy or Mayfield other than hearsay.

[projectx]

Randy Fox is Awesome!!!

Projectx, I think Randy said more than once, he could care less about Blind Billy one way or the other. But you have raised interesting points. I would love to participate more, but I know nothing about Boudreaux, Blind Billy or Mayfield other than hearsay.

SB randy has said a lot, but not about where he stands , and to not care about the true breeding of one of the most important bloodlines in the history of this breed of dogs in the blind billy and eli line is not the sign of a man who cares about breeding in any way and quite frankly is a copout of an excuse ,probably said in order to not have to agree with mayfield or disagree with floyd.

As for you wanting but not bieng able to participate more becasue you dont feel you dont know enough about any of this SB
its ok, you dont need to know anything, this thread is about opinions, i have tried to put toggether as much information using written /audio and hearsay evidence and using what i call a common sense view to every theory from which i have made my own assuptions
and which you can also make yours based on the eviidence and your own common sense or gut feeling as to were the truth may be in your opinion, so feel free to post your views on the dogs we have so far and any others that may pop up in this thread, merry christmas to you.

[Foxman]

I did not say I didn't like Don Mayfield. I liked him and his wife. Can you scan and post anywhere I said the words I did not like or I hated Mayfield? He was one of the greatest dogmen that ever lived. Yet in some areas he rambles. He claims that Boudreaux dogs are out of one of his bitches. On the other hand Mayfield calls they are all currs. Which way it is? Are they game dogs off Mayfield stuff or Curr dogs. I simply was trying to tell the truth as I saw it about breedings. Someone ask me to get on here and try to tell the truth. I told them 'no those people do not want the truth' but decided to do it anyway. I wish I'd never said anything. You guys will live on in your dream world. It seems to be the world for lots of dogmen to be happy in. If you really want to know the truth. Spend some money and see if the DNA's match on the bloodlines in question. No ones word that was there will change or prove anything to you guys. Except the ones you pick out to believe. But the DNA will. Get a bunch of guys together pay a DNA test facility to help. Then get your friends to help financially. That is if you can convince them this is a good cause. That way you will see if your dreams are right. I apologize for saying anything. Leave me out ot your bull.

[projectx]

I did not say I didn't like Don Mayfield. I liked him and his wife. Can you scan and post anywhere I said the words I did not like or I hated Mayfield? He was one of the greatest dogmen that ever lived. Yet in some areas he rambles. He claims that Boudreaux dogs are out of one of his bitches. On the other hand Mayfield calls they are all currs. Which way it is? Are they game dogs off Mayfield stuff or Curr dogs. I simply was trying to tell the truth as I saw it about breedings. Someone ask me to get on here and try to tell the truth. I told them 'no those people do not want the truth' but decided to do it anyway. I wish I'd never said anything. You guys will live on in your dream world. It seems to be the world for lots of dogmen to be happy in. If you really want to know the truth. Spend some money and see if the DNA's match on the bloodlines in question. No ones word that was there will change or prove anything to you guys. Except the ones you pick out to believe. But the DNA will. Get a bunch of guys together pay a DNA test facility to help. Then get your friends to help financially. That is if you can convince them this is a good cause. That way you will see if your dreams are right. I apologize for saying anything. Leave me out ot your bull.

Randy i enver said you hated mayfield , but its how you say things about him ,and you still have not said anything in your poststo add to this thread.I dont want you or anyone else to say what they dont believe in randy, but i offered up some evidence on why i believe don and many others believed that eli was out of crybaby and cotton, and that billy was not out of dibo, and eventhough i think that in these two dogs it seems as close to the truth as we can get to any of the dogs in the game that have had some disputed pedigrees over the years , and even floyds best friends and mayfields worst enemies would have to secretly agree that he was correct ,but you randy are sitting on the fence , unlike you normaly do
when you have the opportunity to put mayifeld down ,then you are 100% certain about your views ,but in this one your as quiet as a church mouse.
I think i know why you dont want to say anything about it,becasue if you say you believe floyd eventhough the eveidence is a damming as we can get , then you would look like a fool and taking flyds side , but if you agree ,which would be the only thing you really can do given the evidence , then you would be going against floyd , but randy if your going to come on here and blame others for not wanting the truth , well maybe you should start with some yourself , and instead of trying to throwing shit and hopeing it sticks , like you did in the post about the fix and wimberly , which i think i explianed to anyone who was dumb enough to actually believe your story why it couldnt have been true in generals case , and the other attempts at making mayfield look like he couldnt condtion so wimberly did it for him , which you knew why before my reply to your post, but thats ok randy so far your o for 2 so keep em coming , but you might want to either take a dump or get off the pot, so one last time do you believe floyd on blind billy and eli or mayfield and most inteligent thinking people who can see and accept the truth when they see it .

Randy by the way what truth is it that you have deemed to tells us here? i agree your views about tombstone are as legit as anyone elses, but what truth have you told us about billy and eli ? you talk about DnA and stuff none of us have talked about or game dogs and curs dogs ,which again no one has talked about , when its a thread about disputed pedigres on famous dogs past and present , but someone is mistaken in the baby v gina dispute , now as maloney made the breeding , and you say you seen gina there at exactly the time tombstone was whelped so someone so someone must be mistaken right? So who is it randy you and don maloney the saint or bob wallace, just about the most honest man in the game , but hell you might be right randy anything possible, but on billy its not possible to say that , its black and white cut and dried so lets hear it randy whats your truth about that .

[Gotta12v]

randy stated before that if you weren't there you don't know for sure. I never seen him claim he was there when eli was bred or whelped. this is like an Obama birth certificate argument without proof its just your opinion. the only man that really knows is still alive has he ever been asked about the discrepancy in the dates?

[Foxman]

I wasn't there when any of Boudreaux' dogs were bred. I wasn't there when any of the dogs Boudreaux bought were bred. Is that plain enough for everyone. Why don't you ask my friend Bennett Clayton how they were bred. Or ask the reknown Clements 'who I do not know' but he may be able to tell you how they are bred 'Maybe'. I have never heard Floyd Boudreaux bad mouth Mayfield. I have heard Mayfield bad mouth Floyd Numerous times. I saw and heard someone tell Floyd abut Mayfield mouthing about him one time. Floyd said 'That is just Don'. He likes to do that sort of thing. I thought that was a pretty nice statement from a guy that should be mad. DNA will stand up in court but not hear-say. Like I said the truth is out there through DNA. Spend some money and find the truth or just believe the talk.

[projectx]

randy stated before that if you weren't there you don't know for sure. I never seen him claim he was there when eli was bred or whelped. this is like an Obama birth certificate argument without proof its just your opinion. the only man that really knows is still alive has he ever been asked about the discrepancy in the dates?

Hi gotta , i never said randy said he was there when eli was whelped , i was talking about what randy said about gina being on maloneys yard and he seen here there when tombstone was bred , and i said that either he or bob wallace msut be mistaken ,as bob wallace said that she was on his yard when gina was supposed to have been whelping tombstone.

As for the dates for blind billy , i have said it a few times on this thread but here it is again.Floyd stated more than once and also in his interview exactly when and how he got blind billy and when he was born.Floyd tates that billy was born in 1952 and dibo was born march 21 1951 and tudor never got dibo untill 3 years old more or less so on floyds own version billy cant be out of dibo ,thats without all the other circumstantial evidence about crybaby , but on the dates alone its not possible .

[projectx]

I wasn't there when any of Boudreaux' dogs were bred. I wasn't there when any of the dogs Boudreaux bought were bred. Is that plain enough for everyone. Why don't you ask my friend Bennett Clayton how they were bred. Or ask the reknown Clements 'who I do not know' but he may be able to tell you how they are bred 'Maybe'. I have never heard Floyd Boudreaux bad mouth Mayfield. I have heard Mayfield bad mouth Floyd Numerous times. I saw and heard someone tell Floyd abut Mayfield mouthing about him one time. Floyd said 'That is just Don'. He likes to do that sort of thing. I thought that was a pretty nice statement from a guy that should be mad. DNA will stand up in court but not hear-say. Like I said the truth is out there through DNA. Spend some money and find the truth or just believe the talk.

Randy i never said you were there when eli or any of floyds dogs were bred , i said that you claimed to have seen gina on maloneys yard at the time when she had tombstone ,and i said that either you and the saint don maloney or bob wallace who was known as one of the most honest men in the game are msitaken as bob said she was on his yard at the time gina was supposed to have whelped tombstone ,so please dont put words into my mouth.


Once again you say how you never heard floyd badmouth mayfield but want to tell how you heard mayfield badmouth floyd.
Well randy once again rather than answer a very simple question as to whether in your opinion based on the facts about
blind billy and subsequently eli as one leads to the others true heritage , you would rahter throw up smoke screens and
stay sitting on the pot .If floyd had screwed me over , you can bet every dollar you ever had i would be badmouthing him too
if he had done that to me by claiming eli as his ,so maybe don had a good reason to badmouth floyd and anyone else who wanted to cover up the lies about what had been done to him, and you think floyd was being nice just saying that about don when it was his way of badmouthing don , and he knew better than that cos he knew don was telling the truth
about eli and billy so you might fool some folks on here but your so obvious randy its unreal .

Ok you made 3 posts , with only one statement about tombstone none about billy and eli or anyother dogs we talked about so far in this thread , but you made plenty of comments about mayfield and other stuff no one has asked or even mentioned except you , and as for DNA well i will make a call and find out what the chances are based on the scenario we have, which is a dog that was around over 40 years ago whos heritage has 2 possibilties one out of a known dog dibo and the other of unknown or only known to floyd , and as such the chances of them telling me yes no problem we can find out is remote but i will ask. But floyds own words tell us everything about billy and it tells us he aint out of dibo so eli aint out of billy ,so randy either tells us you believe old floyd or don and many others who can read and understand that it never happened , or show what level of truth you have your answer .

[CYJ]

Ditto Foxman. Well spoken. I found a simple way that solved my problem with some of those so called above issues. V. Jackson continued on with the Mayfield Sunshine/Snake/Coplin crosses. I bought the Carver-Creel bred dog formerly known as McNeil's Chuck. This dog was bought direct from M. Carver and I got to talk with the Creels about this dog. They confirmed I had the right dog.

Next I got the Chandler's Face bitch that was a Boudreaux/Carver/Mayfield bred dog. Face was bred out of Dwight Hathaway's dogs and C. Middleton's in bred Holt's Jerimiah bitch. Middleton went down to Texas and bought this young Black Betty bitch directly from Raymond and Sharon Holt. Black Betty turned out to be a good producer. I never knew of Cecil ever even rolling Black Betty. If he did he kept it private. Middleton was a good dog man and breeder. Was a smart man and kept his business and dog activities out of John Q Public's eye and the dog magazines.

I obtained a inbred Loposay's Buster x Lopasay's Beanie bitch through S. Shropshire that was owned by K. Powell. I got the C. Mim's Sally bitch from G. Cox. Sally was formerly a bitch owned by Duplechain who got his dogs from Roland Fontenot. Sally was a older bitch and off the Don Maloney dogs and a 1/4 Heinzl. Had no luck with Sally with any breeding's off Chuck. Was bred to Jackson's Tuney with no luck. Never got to breed her to my Jake dog but did get one litter off my Winchester dog and Spruill's Gr CH Jack dog. Some good dogs came off those breeding's. Those got drowned or stolen in Texas. The Gang buster's managed to keep a good one called Sally Cat.

From this blend of dogs I started on another line of dogs and added the breeding off the Zetterquest's brother's Crazy Critter dog. More Carver-Creel -Boudreaux breeding. All these dogs I started with were not young dogs. I had a limited time to bred up any pups.

From all this I started getting some of the best dogs I had had in a long while. V. Jackson took notice and asked me if he could breed his Tuney dog to my Face bitch and to my Monkey bitch and my Sally bitch. Which I did. He had wanted to use his Son dog but Son got killed in a kennel accident. Tuney was his brother and I think the last of those dogs. Got one litter off Face and Monkey but not Sally. I kept none of the pups and let him have all of them. He liked those crosses a lot.

Like I said before I had changed directions from being a hard core D. Mayfield man and wanted for once in my life to do my own thing and think for myself. I was getting much better built and more talented dogs with a Boudreaux/Carver-Creel/Mayfield crossed dogs than just the Sunshine based dogs. In fact the Mayfield Snake x Coplin dogs were much better over all dogs than the Sunshine dogs. Had tremendous biting power and wrestling abilities. All were small dogs.

Things were really looking good, then someone comes on my dog yard and breaks the back of my Chuck dog so bad I had to put him down. Later my little Monkey bitch had been bred back to that Crazy critter dog the Zetterquest brothers owned. She was full of pups and soon to deliver. Again while I had to work and was called out of town. Monkey had been heavily poisoned and found dead in the box. The culprit even stood her up on her back and leaned her against the side of the brood box. Was no sign of a struggle/bleeding of any sorts or a miscarriage problem. The bitch was so stiff she looked too have been dead two or three days.

From all of this, some other personnel problems along with worrying what day Mr. Law and the Humane Dyke society might pay me a visit. I gave it up and let V. Jackson take the rest of the dogs with him back to Texas. He blended what was left of all these dogs to start his last line of dogs.

To the over seas fellows like ProjectX/KeyStone, that bought up some of the last in bred Mayfield stock before he died. If still getting good dogs that can win and show gameness. I say be thankful and run with it. Over time if some of it starts not being up to par. You will have to go to some source of Boudreaux/Carver/ Patrick/ or a Tudor's Red Bill line to hopefully fire it back up. To worry so much about Blind Billie or any of those issues of 40 or 60 years ago is just a moot point. Best live in the today, no one knows what tomorrow holds for them.

No one had a monopoly on this breed of dogs from many years ago and will not today. Other good dog men had dogs just as good or better than Mr. Tudor or Don Mayfield. Stinson & Glover proved they could condition their dogs with the best of the lot. Including Mr. Mayfield. Was not so much the conditioning and certainly no dog rub. What got Easy was that killing mouth that the Ruby bitch had.

Was a repeat of history of what Lonzo Pratt's Mike dog did to Leo Kinard's dog. With Mayfield handling Leo's dog. Don was wearing a Texas Ten gallon hat and trying to hide Leo's dog from Lonzo Mike's dog. If you have the old magazine's pictures of that match it is quite obvious. Did no good, Pratt out smarted them all and flew his dog out there in advance. Lonzo's Mike was a well rested dog sitting in their back yard waiting for show time. Lonzo's Mike was a super bad bulldog.

Many times these line of dogs are bought and bred around popular trends and dog Breeder's popularity. When I got in the game, the Colby/Heinzl/Bullet/Hemphill OFRN lines were becoming less popular. It was the Carver/Boudreaux lines that were starting to be popular. Then later it was the Jocko-Red Boy-Medlin dogs, The Crenshaw-Jeep- Red Boy dogs. Later it was the Patrick dogs. Today many of all these lines are blended together. Far the better or the worse I am still seeing some nice looking Pit dogs today. You have some good dogs be thankful, if not keep trying till you get or find some. Cheers

[Foxman]

Project-X That story that was told about Gena not being on Maloney's place when Tombstone was born is a lie. I can bring forth two witnesses if you want to make it worth my while and they are not dead like your witness. Why don't you bet me 1000 dollars and we can send it to Weldon Stockton who use to be one of Mayfields Partners and was also a partner with Bennnett Clayton. I can produce two honest witnesses after the money is put up. Email me for Weldon's address and as soon as he calls me and says he has the $1000. I will send him 1000 dollars. Put up or shut up. I wasn't there 24 hours a day. So I know it is possible for Tombstone to be out of something else. But Toot Bred Genia I can prove that. She may have been bred to ten other males. I did see her hung up with Toot. I saw some pups nursing on Gena later that looked the same color as Tombstone plus some with more white. They could have been switched. My bet with you is Genia was there. I beleive tombstone is one of her pups but that isn't for sure and isn't part of the bet. I'd had to lived there to be sure whos they were positively Toot's and Gena's. I have one question. Why would a person lie about Tombstone being out of Gena who was not as well known of a known bloodline instead of some he had that were better known bloodlines dogs? That doesn't make since. I told you earlier there wee no Tudor females there. What i meant was he bred some dogs down from Tudor's stuff and had them there. What I'm saying is Tudor didn't breed one dog that was there on his place at the time. Anyway put up or shut up.

[evolutionkennels]

Now we were talking.

[projectx]

Project-X That story that was told about Gena not being on Maloney's place when Tombstone was born is a lie. I can bring forth two witnesses if you want to make it worth my while and they are not dead like your witness. Why don't you bet me 1000 dollars and we can send it to Weldon Stockton who use to be one of Mayfields Partners and was also a partner with Bennnett Clayton. I can produce two honest witnesses after the money is put up. Email me for Weldon's address and as soon as he calls me and says he has the $1000. I will send him 1000 dollars. Put up or shut up. I wasn't there 24 hours a day. So I know it is possible for Tombstone to be out of something else. But Toot Bred Genia I can prove that. She may have been bred to ten other males. I did see her hung up with Toot. I saw some pups nursing on Gena later that looked the same color as Tombstone plus some with more white. They could have been switched. My bet with you is Genia was there. I beleive tombstone is one of her pups but that isn't for sure and isn't part of the bet. I'd had to lived there to be sure whos they were positively Toot's and Gena's. I have one question. Why would a person lie about Tombstone being out of Gena who was not as well known of a known bloodline instead of some he had that were better known bloodlines dogs? That doesn't make since. I told you earlier there wee no Tudor females there. What i meant was he bred some dogs down from Tudor's stuff and had them there. What I'm saying is Tudor didn't breed one dog that was there on his place at the time. Anyway put up or shut up.

Randy you wanting me to put up money to something that i myself have said is possible both ways although i believe it was baby for reasons i have stated is riddiculous, as we would again only be being told that gina maybe was on maloneys yard ,not that anyone including you as you have stated in your own psot can be sure whether gina or baby was the dam to tombstone, so what would me putting up money prove anymore than we already can ? You should like i do put any info you have out there that is credible , like me calling CYJ and playing him some audio i have, and infact i will call him again to play him the audio where maloney says that toot
is out of the same dam mayfields nigger dog is which was baby, and then later maloney changes and says gina, so mayfield never knew for sure but in his gut he felt sure tombstone was out of one of earls pure bitches that maloney had on his yard,
and the reason why maloney would have lied to earl was if earl knew that don had sold those pups out of earls bitches earl would have been mad with maloney as they had a deal so the theory is maloney put gina as the mother to avoid that happening , and although i agreed with the view that in any case like this one were its a he said she said, the fact that maloney is on tape saying it then changing his story later on in the conversation plus another man who calls don years later and tells don that bob wallace who told this man , who i think went by the nickname of crab apple or had a dog named crab apple plus he conditoned grch 35 for rudshin bill upto one fight before his gr chs and had sweet pea and little bear so someone may know that man ,well bob told him that gina was on his yard , when maloney claims she was on his yard whelping tombstone, so like i said one of you may be correct but someone is most definetly mistaken and it could be any of you.

Randy are you going to never say what you feel is the truth about blind billy and eli, or can we take it that from your silence that anything you say would incrimnate floyd so rather than say anytihng your keeping quiet and only say something when it can make make mayfield look bad ?

I agree with cyj that what happened 40 years ago wont change our dogs today, but i never said it would , what i said is that it would be correct and the right thing to do to put that right especially when by your own silence randy faced with the facts about blind billy and subsequently eli , you obviuosly know yourself there can only be one true answer , otherwise randy based on how you post opinions on anything that could have more than one explanation that might prove mayfield wrong you would have said it, but your silence semms to say it all about blind billy and eli and were the truth lies.

I wonder how many of us would like it if we wrote a book or a song and someone stole it and passed it off as there own work , i wonder how many would just say , oh well who cares let the one who stole it take the credit for my work ,
which is exactly what we are doing by saying who cares in the case of blind billy and eli , when with the evidence we
have regardless of our alliances and friendships we should be man enough to say so not just when it suits our own agenda
and at least give mayfield his rightful credit as the breeder of the eli litter ,and blind billys untrue heritage proves it ,so instead of asking me to put up or shut up , especially as i have been asking you the same thing but not with some hogwash money up front first before i talk ,maybe you should try taking your own advice and do just that about blind billy and eli ,as i have answered and actually tried to explain every theory i have on these dogs from tombstone to eli and never held anything back ,so stop trying to play games and turn the tables with another hogwash smokescreen .

[Foxman]

ProjectX You win. Whoever you like is honest and tells the straight up scoop. If anyone disagrees with your they are wrong. Why do you ask anyone their opinion if it doesn't count. How many dogs have you fought? Mistro. You are the king of opinion. Have you ever done anything else but talk dogs. I would have to destroy Mayfield with facts and words to destroy you but I am not going there. I've already told you he was a great dogman. That you already know. I wish I'd never talked on here. I'm done with you.I told you to put up or shut up. You won't do either so I have to shut up to not hear you. By everyone.

[projectx]

ProjectX You win. Whoever you like is honest and tells the straight up scoop. If anyone disagrees with your they are wrong. Why do you ask anyone their opinion if it doesn't count. How many dogs have you fought? Mistro. You are the king of opinion. Have you ever done anything else but talk dogs. I would have to destroy Mayfield with facts and words to destroy you but I am not going there. I've already told you he was a great dogman. That you already know. I wish I'd never talked on here. I'm done with you.I told you to put up or shut up. You won't do either so I have to shut up to not hear you. By everyone.

Randy i have my opinions just like anyone else has them, and just like you or me we hope that people agree with what we may say as that is human nature , but for me to disagree with anyone they would at least have to make a commnet for me to disagree with in the first place, and you randy have only made one commnet on the dogs mentioned in this thread, and that was about tombstone,and how you believe that he was out of gina, but say notihng on any other dog, especially blind billy, so dont start trying to say that i only want people to agrree with me becuse i dont, i want poeple to give a true and honest opinion based on the facts presented such as they are ,not on who they like more or whos dogs they run.

I could say the same about you come to that , but at least i try to put forward a reasonable argument for why i beleive a dog may or may not be bred a certain way, and i already agreed with you in part that although i tend to believe that baby and not gina was the dam, based on the evidence and overall gut feeling , i still said contrary to you saying( i only want you or anyone else to agree with me ) that one of you guys as you had said categorically that gina was on maloneys yard at the exact time tombstone was whelped , and i said that another man told the story that bob wallace had gina on his yard , so maloney and you might be mistaken just as bob wallace might have been mistaken , i just happened to think baby is the dam, more because of what i heard maloney say on the audio to mayfield , and also because maloney did have a deal in place with earls pure bitches , but again i said that its a he said she said case and one that my gut tells me is baby yours tells you is gina , and i can live with that .

But just to put your little theory about anyone i believe is honest and anyone i dont believe in like floyd is not true, i know don was no saint just like floyd maloney and many more , and im sure theres been things mayfild did that we could say something about absolutley im not an idiot, but this thread as i keep reminding you randy is about famous dogs with disputed pedigrees and apart from tombstone on which i am happy to agree to disagree with you as their is
every chance that maybe gina was the dam and maybe not, but in the blind billy and eli case , and even i am getting tired of repeating myself for your benefit but the evidence is pretty much overwhelming and still you dont give a game reply but try to cop out by trying to turn the tables asking me hogwash questions as to somehow avoid having to make an honest and truth full answer to the question. And as you know where i stand on the blind billy eli subject all you have to do is say either i beleive floyd or mayfield and others as it wasnt only mayfield who always felt blind billy wasnt bred as floyd said or eli, so to claim i disagree whith anyone who doesnt agree with me is a mute point untill you actually say what you think without trying dance around the subject which your still doing i cant disagree with you can i. I hope that if you do give us an answer rather than running away from it as you keep threatening to do on every post that doesnt agreee with you rather than accuse me of that, you might explain how you think blind billy could be the son of dibo because if thats what you think randy , that might be a little tricky but id love to hear that .

Finally randy i think im stating the obvious here but your comment about me saying that if anyone disagrees with me they are wrong , is what most people you included think about an opposing view if they think ,as i do that i am correct just like you think you are correct ,so we could say that about everybody who unless shown a reason that proves them wrong will
always disagree with the opposite version, but i can say to you that if i was a floyd worshipper and hadnt known about the timeline for dibo and billy or the crybaby litter and other evidence albeit circumstantial from dogmen and the like , i might also be saying i beleive floyd , but when i am shown something more than hearsay that gives me more than a just a hearsay and whos side do i take decsion to make depending on who i like or whos dogs i run , then with the evidence on blind blly and eli i would have to say it must be true, and so far randy eventhough i dont agree with you on tombstones dam, i am open to the possibilty that it might have been gina, just as i am open to the possibilty on other dogs with disputed pedigrees, but on billy and eli i cant pretend to be blind regardless of who i like more ,and you will not see me defending mayfield or other dogmen who i like but i know are not angels when i am presented with more than hearsay on sometihng like the subject of this thread, so randy i dont care if you agree or disaagree i am as confident about the true breeding of eli and the unknown breeding of blind billy as i or anyone else could ever be, and if you agree it wouldnt be because im saying so ,it would be becasue in this case the evidence points there , and it would seem a shame that you would rather say nothing on something so obvious and i hope i am wrong and that you will give your view based on the evidence .

[evolutionkennels]

Someone please close this thread.

[No Quarter Kennel]

NQK you can say what you like about me, but this thread was and is about dogs with fake pedsigres or at leasts ones with a known dubioius heritage, and as such if my mentioning them it is badmouthing them , that unfortunatley goes wth the territory.If you read my posts on this thread before writing you might have seen that the only one i would put my hand on my heart and say is undoubltedly fake is the blind billy and eli peds, with tombstone or the others its more a case of weighing up the facts to hand and the word of the ones around back then and decide which you think makes more sense , and i think i have said that although i tend to favour baby as tombstones dam , anything is possible, so maybe instead of you trying to bad mouth mayfield with no reason at all apart from the fact we disagree on hammonds so you want to hate on mayfield becasue of it ,even when the subject of the truth of such an important bloodline in the history of this bred as the ELI bloodline is up for discussion , you would rather not talk about that but waste your time trying to get at me by bad mouthing mayfield instead of taking an interest in the thread and maybe thinking about that, and what makes me laugh is that in your 2 posts , both of which have said nothing on any of the dogs and all they are is a rant about me and mayfield ,when maybe if you were a serious breeder as you say you are , you might have said something about it ,but of course that would mean having to agree with mayfield on something without sarcasm which you arent man enough to do are you.
Now as for my audio tapes i have a few of them and for you to call me a lair when you have no reason other than not having ever known of them or probably ever talked to mayfield as your obviously a greenhorn regardless of how long youve been breeding dogs, but the fact that i do have them and only wish i had all 400 of them and what i have said is on the tapes is infact on them ,and im sure that i am not the only one who got audio tapes from mayfield ,but i will call cyj and play the audio to him over the phone and then we can see whos a lair , and maybe the next dog i mention will be a little closer to home for you ,then you can get mad , but sometimes the only way a blind man can see is if you force his eyes wide open ,and by god yours need some serious opening thats for sure.

Now NQK when i prove i have the tapes , i will expect a full appology from you which i want you to confrim on this thread before i call a member on this thread who i have never talked to before but i asked him for his number as he seems to be very knwledgable about the game, and i would be happy to call him and he can confirm that he has infact heard the tapes.
Then i expect you will be a man and say SORRY to me,and if you confirm that you will say sorry when confiramtion of the tapes is given , i will go ahead and call this member who i was hoping to talk to anyway so i hope he wont mind if he can do that .

Now NQK by knowing that i am not a lair when you get confirmation of it, that will of course mean that whether i am correct in my beliefs or not in anything i have said to you before today or from this day forward and whether you agree with it or not i hope you can
get you to the realisation that what i have and im saying to you and others is not being said to take sides for the sake of it just becasue i happen to agree with mayfield or disagree with floyd or anyone else for that matter, its becasue i happen to think it has some truth to it ,but not just from blind faith , but from good old common sense and a little research to as best as possible say what i say , and whether you will agree or disagree with me on matters either past present or future , i have never lied or tried to deseive you or anyone else , so in that alone i hope you will never insult me again as you have done about the audios and call me a liar ,because i am not , and when as in the case of an obvious lie's like blind billy or any others that may follow on this thread, i hope you have the courage to admit you see it even if it means agreeing with me and mayfield and maybe having to disagree with one closer to you .

I apologize that you have tapes with someone (unconfirmed) saying shit you believe in. I'm sorry you canNOT prove the voices on the tape are anyone you say they are.
I am sorry you are obsessed with proving people who have honest reputations are dishonest and your source of validation is that of people who lived dishonest lives.

There - you win - I apologized.

Happy New Year!

[Gotta12v]

its a shame when a knowledgeable and honest old timer is disrespected and discouraged from posting on here. hes not going to say what you want him to say so why cant this be left alone?

[projectx]

Someone please close this thread.

Hi evo , why should the thread be closed ? it has only jsut started with a few dogs being talked about,
and if you are getting bored of the psots between me and foxman, well i agree so am i , but maybe if
someone actually tries to porve the blind billy thoery wrong if thats what they think ,then they need
to at least make a psot attempting to do just that insyead of dragging thier feet and saying zippo
about it .

I m not sure what we are all supposed to do when a subject like disputed pedigrees is opened, are we
just to pretend they dont exist, or as some of us have done make some posts and even foxman himself put
forward his version of what he believes is the dam to tombstone, which i argued against , but his could be true just
like the theory i believe could also be true , and thats how any thread on these matters should be untill we get
more overwhellming evidence to prove otherwsie.

Now if i am posting on a thread , as foxman has done on here just as others have also done, then
if the thread is being ruined by the arguing by me and foxman i agree, downhill, i would be better
if we stopped it,, but seeing as he has yet to make a comment as to where he stands on eli and billy
which is of course is his right, but considering foxman always seems to make sure he posts when he
has the chance to counter any theory that might counter a mayfield theory , then if he says he has
nothing against him it would be nice to hear him agree with mayfield also , as i cant see how he cant
on billy and eli, and it would have shown foxman as being fair when the evidence proves it and to show
the same courage to maybe say something on the blind billy and eli story by way of a definitiive answer
as to what he believes based on what i would call the most clear cut evidence we have on probably
have on any dog that has ever had a disputed pedigree ,to be clear about what he thinks but that
would mean agreeing with mayfield there is no other answer otherwise foxman would have put one up
by now .

Evo i would also ask you to give your opinion on this , or any of the dogs we have talked about so far
in this thread, im sure you will have your own opinion which may or may not agree with mine or randys or anyone
elses so far , but it would be appreciatted , and considering that the eli line is probably the second most
famous line of modern times behind dibo himself, and that the evidence is there to pretty much put it
right as to the true and unknown brreeding of eli and blind billy , then maybe rather than asking to close the
thread evo you might have added your considered view on all or any of the dogs so far talked about but
especially eli and blind billy, as i think it is only right that the man who for all these years has been talked
about as mad crazy jealous and more, was actually correct about eli and blind billy ,and like i said to randy
and i would ask all of you , to see if you would like that said of yourself or your father , when all along he
was right , and that all these years another man had passed of that intial breeding as his own , and that is wrong
but fate has a way of biteing back , and we dont need faith in mayfield or any other dogman who thought blind billy
was not out of dibo or that eli was not bred as papered, floyds own words have done that for us and its what i call
karma , so before we all go asking to close a thread , lets see it through and have some honest answers , god
knows theirs been enough lies around the dogs and the game maybe its time we started to put it right when we can
and with billy and eli its about as easy as it gets to put right , but that means standing up and being counted like a
man , its easy to run away so lets hear it guys look at the evidence and make it an interesting thread a lets all
of us stop tryting to put down others and stick to what facts we have on each dog already talked about and any
others that may follow take care .

[projectx]

its a shame when a knowledgeable and honest old timer is disrespected and discouraged from posting on here. hes not going to say what you want him to say so why cant this be left alone?

Him gotta , if your talking about foxamn, well im not aksing him to say anything he doesnt want, and if anyones being
disrspected its mayfield, how would you like it gotta12 if that was you they said was mad crazy jealous when all aong you were right, and foxman can keep as quiet as a church mouse for all i care, his silence means he knows if he says anytihng
on blind billy and eli it has to agree with mayfield and about everyone else whos honest enough to admit it , and what makes me wonder about this is that you have bothered to post about poor old foxman, but let me ask you a question
gotta12 , did you look at the evidence about blind billy ? did you work it out ? and if so do you honestly believe that blind
billy is out oif dibo ? and if you do please explain to me how you come to that conclusion? I think the thread would
benefit form every post having an opinion on the subject not on the personal issues foxman or me or anyone else might have as all it does is ruin the thread , so whats your opinioon gotta12 , you made a good post before to which i answered you.
So come on guys i dont want this hogwash anymore than you guys, so lets stick to the thread and the facts and give
some honest and explained comments as to why you think what you think , thats how we all learn and maybe realise
we might have been wrong about something ,including me you and foxman to .

[No Quarter Kennel]

This thread is an insane waste of time.

DELETE - it brings down the credibility of this website

[projectx]

I apologize that you have tapes with someone (unconfirmed) saying shit you believe in. I'm sorry you canNOT prove the voices on the tape are anyone you say they are.
I am sorry you are obsessed with proving people who have honest reputations are dishonest and your source of validation is that of people who lived dishonest lives.

There - you win - I apologized.

Happy New Year!

WOw you are one piece of work NQK your come on hear and call me a lair, i go out of my way to contact a member CYJ
who i didnt know at all ,but who seemed to be a knowledgeable and reasonable man by his posts , and who had made comments that he knew mayfeild and jackson , so thought if he heard the tapes he could confirm it as he did , and infact the first thing cyj said to me was (thats mayfields voice alright) and infact i am going to play him the audio
of maloney and others , and i would even call you to play it over the phone, but as you wouldnt belive it anyway as your
shitty appolgy showed, you can take it and stick where the sun dont shine .
AS for me wanting to prove people as dishonest, well to answer your question, NQK
this thread is about disputed peidgreews, i wonder if you even bothered to look at the psots which do have some good points , form various people ,and maybe its just me, but i wonder if you would be saying that if you had an interest in a line or the breed as you should being you call yourself a breeder , wouldnt you like to know how arguably the seocnd most important line of modern times was really bred ? or only if it meant being able to disagree with me i wonder.

Nqk i have no doubt seeing how you with no reason and certainly no evidence called me a lair and said i didnt have the tapes, and your caling me obbsesed by wanting to asking questions about how some famous dogs might or might not have been bred ? you are a piece of work and i would gladly call you and play you some audio and then tell you to take a hike .

By the way i agree with you that many of the men we talk about have not lead the msot saintly of lives ,and as such just
blindly taking anyones word is stupid, but you see the audios which don recodred are his conversations with other men talking also so we have the words of more than one man , so that always helps when weighing up any theorys any of us may have , but there are some people who are dishonest in one way but wouldnt be dishonest about something else, and theirs many examples of that, im sure we all know or have a friend who might in one way have negative points but we like
them , but as we know them we can make exceptions for that side of them, and the same goes im sure for every damn one of us.

Now NQK you can choose to be the lesser man and to make me such an appology shows what a little man you really are , but if thats the level of man you are then you are no sportsman , even two fighters shake hands win or lose, and to be honest i dont dislike you i never have , its you who decided you disliked me since i told you something you didnt like hearing about, and i was actually trying to help you , but thats your loss not mine, and ever since all you do is try to put me down and even accused me of lying with no good reason , so before you go calling anyone a lair or obbssed take a good look at yourself NQK and if you have any decency you will give me an honest appology not that shamefull sarcastic one you posted , that was a disgracefull thing to do but as i am a bigger man than you merry chrsitmas all the same .

[projectx]

This thread is an insane waste of time.

DELETE - it brings down the credibility of this website

No NQK people like you who accuse others of lying and are then are proven to be wrong and then arent man enough to give a decent appology bring this website down, you might try posting something about the subject of the thread instead of fighting a losing battle with me .

[ragedog10]

What does it matter now? Blind Billy/ Eli family have stood the test of time,as for Mayfield not breeding to Tombstone well if you ask me and look at Tombstone production Mayfield made the wrong choice. I just think this whole thing is childish now ,what do you expect to come from it by arguing on Jacks board? The ADBA is nt going to change records after all this time. Floyds line has stood the test of time just like the Tombstone line has and the Mayfield line has faded to the yards of collectors and history buffs ,just like most of the Colby blood today. In the end it does nt matter and history has been written. If there was a issue it should have been taken care of years ago when the dogs and players were still all around. Yis Ole Man

[projectx]

What does it matter now? Blind Billy/ Eli family have stood the test of time,as for Mayfield not breeding to Tombstone well if you ask me and look at Tombstone production Mayfield made the wrong choice. I just think this whole thing is childish now ,what do you expect to come from it by arguing on Jacks board? The ADBA is nt going to change records after all this time. Floyds line has stood the test of time just like the Tombstone line has and the Mayfield line has faded to the yards of collectors and history buffs ,just like most of the Colby blood today. In the end it does nt matter and history has been written. If there was a issue it should have been taken care of years ago when the dogs and players were still all around. Yis Ole Man

Ragedog i agree it wont change our dogs today , and yes tombstone did go on and make a great record as a producer.
but mayfield wouldnt breed to him not being able to be 100% sure that baby and not gina was his dam, but he did keep
breeding rights to the dog in case he ever did find out for sure how he was bred .

I also agree that the blind billy eli line has stood the test of time, but the point is exactly that ragedog, is it the blind billy eli line or infact as i believe and as i believe the evidence proves it to be the cry babyx cotton eli line .That is something that we can at least amongst ourselves try to make right, why if the evidence is there should we not do it, it isnt
right and mayfield at least deserves credit as the breeder of the eli litter , as anyone who can look at the evidence provided on blind billy would be hard pressed to say he was sired by dibo ,in whch case eli cant be out of billy billy
but is out of ,as most suspected at the time crybaby x cotton, and to me when i hear anyone else say (well lets just leave it like it is and say nothing, ) is like saying well lets leave that man in prison who is innocent of murder and
leave the guilty man free , and that ragedog is not the way i look at it , so why is everyone so damn happy to keep up the pretence that nothings wrong with that.

Actually the adba can has has rectified pedigrees of dogs with far less evidence than there is on blind billy , so that would also be the correct thing to do , as i dont see why floyd whos line as you rightly say has stood the test of time, should not at least acknowledge the very big part that eli played in him being able to make floyd and his line famous and as such also acknowledge the true breeder of that litter , without which that may never have happened to floyd, because if floyd felt the need to use another mans work to start his line and pass it off as his , what does it tell you about the mans own line at that time that he felt he needed to do that to mayfield , so lets not forget that shall we.

Your last point about floyds line and tombstones line still being relavant comapred to mayfield lines , well that depends on what you know and who you talk to, not everything is on peds online ,and i think theres so much more to be told about the many dogs mayfield put into tha hands of other dogmen jsut like he had been given by tudor before him ,that did very well with them , and if we talk about floyds line or even the tombstone line, well both lines were if we belive baby to be the true dam of tombstone , of pure family breeding , and mayfield at that time when eli was born was beginging breeding his family and would later go on to breed that same tudor family more or less exclusivly and as i said floyd went on and bred the eli line but
had mayfield not been screwed over by floyd and taken his pups home with him ,then rather than try to take away from mayfield any rightfull credit for that litter that he bred , which is what has been done upto now, we would talking about mayfields eli and what he did with them, and that chance was taken away from him , just like when pit general was stolen and taken away from any history he might have gone on to have as a producer with mayfield , so if anyone thinks thats fine and dandy to just let that slide then your wrong and if it happend to you you would think so to .

[Foxman]

I hope the Taliban don't get a hold of all this top secret stuff that ProjectX has accumulated. This could set the whole country back some. This is some serious stuff. Danny Burton called I was going to tell everything he said about this stuff but I decided not to that might even increase some more of ProjectX' Rant. A fellow can just write a little bit of a rebuttal and he will throw a book at you. I have decided after talking to some of my friends about this. That this man battles with his mouth and his pen or his keyboard. He never has battled with his dogs. He gets so excited he breaks the sound barrier with his typing speed. Trying to fault old dogmen. I know he has never fought a dog he'd have to hospitilized after that type excitment. I'm going to write an article about him on my web. That way the country can decide about ProjectX for themselves. I will post his ideas and he can't disagree on there. I have as many as 5000 readers a day. That ought to get some opinions going. See You nice folks and the walking pitbull breeding encyclopedia Projectx around. Jack this ought to attract lots of readers. I'm not giving out any apologies on this one. But I do hope for a two page Rant from ProjectX.

[projectx]

I hope the Taliban don't get a hold of all this top secret stuff that ProjectX has accumulated. This could set the whole country back some. This is some serious stuff. Danny Burton called I was going to tell everything he said about this stuff but I decided not to that might even increase some more of ProjectX' Rant. A fellow can just write a little bit of a rebuttal and he will throw a book at you. I have decided after talking to some of my friends about this. That this man battles with his mouth and his pen or his keyboard. He never has battled with his dogs. He gets so excited he breaks the sound barrier with his typing speed. Trying to fault old dogmen. I know he has never fought a dog he'd have to hospitilized after that type excitment. I'm going to write an article about him on my web. That way the country can decide about ProjectX for themselves. I will post his ideas and he can't disagree on there. I have as many as 5000 readers a day. That ought to get some opinions going. See You nice folks and the walking pitbull breeding encyclopedia Projectx around. Jack this ought to attract lots of readers. I'm not giving out any apologies on this one. But I do hope for a two page Rant from ProjectX.
Randy you are a very sad individual, you talk about everything but the subject, and you are the one who demeans the very word game, you have shown your lack of gameness in trying to avoid and sidestep everything i said , apart from the the tombstone story , but on what i would think any person involved with this breed of dog would actually find interesting ,the discussion of
a line like elis would be very important if we could clear it up some dont you think .

You randy would rather try to discreit what im saying by claiming i have never matched a dog, well thats seems like a lame way of trying to avoid being a man randy and put your balls on the line,about a breeding as you never fail to do so when you think you can put confusion into a topic or have your say, but your so scared to admit mayfield was right about billy and eli , that you resort to saying hogwash like that about me, as if it would somehow make any difference to the facts
not secrets that i presented on the matter , and if you think there so out of this world why dont you shoot them down randy, that should be easy for you im sure.

As for going around calling people up and talking to them about me, and claiming i never had one between my legs, well who the hell did you call , im not here to brag on what i may or may not have done , and whoever you talked to would have to know who i am for them to tell you anything about me personally not by a nick on a forum now wouldnt they randy.

By the way you can run but you cant hide randy so keep running away from the truth, and like i said to you you dont have to say anyttihng about eli or billy if you dont want to, but considering your trying to now sheep dip me wouldnt you
be better served to just man up and grow a pair rather than look foolish by trying to have a pissing contest about who
fought more dogs, as if that would make black turn white somehow , and turn a lie into the truth.

Randy you can and never will be able to play games with me like you do with others who might believe you , i am a little to ahead of you for that one, so either say something other than showing how scared you are of me by your posts ,and how you wish i could be silenced so others who may not have known or ever thought about such matters might actuall start thinking about them , i would never try to get you banned, or any hater, i would rather stand and fight my corner how about you randy ? Funny thing is randy you say your willing to talk about me on your website and post my ideas, which are not my ideas, there facts that are out there regading the blind billy eli theory, but you wont do it here cos here you cant control what people read and neither can i randy , but thats called freedom to decide randy so lets have your view it wont kill you randy the truth
will actually set you free , of course unless you have an out of this world theory of your own as to how dibo could have ever possibley have sired blind billy, which i for one would love to hear and im sure many others would also, but im guessing that wont ever happen .

[projectx]

Ok if someone wants to make a usefull post with a theory based on common sense and maybe a few facts such as they may be on any of the dogs mentioned so far keep em coming , or any new ones you want to mention.

Now i would like put forward the next dog which has had some disscusion over the years to his pedigree , and
thats adams grch zebo , who some believed may have been sired by the ELI dog and others never doubting his
known pedigree, i for one am open to any possibilty and it would be nice to hear any views or theorys about it.

[ragedog10]

Blind Billy produced a whole family of dogs that are still relevant today Fact. Eli produced a whole family of dogs that changed the game Fact. Patrick produced a family of dogs that are still relevant today Fact. Mr.Fox has more knowledge than you and me and was a hell of a dogman Fact. Pit General was bred by Burton and sold to Mayfield and then stolen Fact. Trying to change history on this site to give Mayfield Credit for the Eli line is not going to happen..Yis Ole Man

[projectx]

Blind Billy produced a whole family of dogs that are still relevant today Fact. Eli produced a whole family of dogs that changed the game Fact. Patrick produced a family of dogs that are still relevant today Fact. Mr.Fox has more knowledge than you and me and was a hell of a dogman Fact. Pit General was bred by Burton and sold to Mayfield and then stolen Fact. Trying to change history on this site to give Mayfield Credit for the Eli line is not going to happen..Yis Ole Man

Ragedog , you obviously didnt read my post fully, i never once said that we should give mayfield credit for the eli line,
i said that as the blind blly dog doesnt show to be bred as papered by floyd, then it
would stand to reason if that is correct then crybaby x cotton were infact the sire and dam to eli and mayfield
should get his credit as the breeder of elis litter not the line, unfortunaly he was robbed of that ,but the we can do if proven correct is give him his basic credit as the breeder dont you thnk so ragedog.

As for your Facts, what exactly are they, you say that blind bllly produced a whole line of dogs, but thats what were trying
to find out in this thread ragedog, was it actually blind billy ? and if we can prove billy was not eli's sire then where does thast leave your Facts ? Do you think billy is out of dibo ragedog ? have you looked at the facts i presented ,that have been around
for many years and not all my own ? So ragedog if you can tell me based on the facts already presented that you still
believe billy is out of dibo , then please explain why you beleive that with some facts or a theory asto why ,just as i have done to suggest he wasnt.

As for randy knowing more than me, well after all his years he should do,but it doesnt look like it to me ,if he doesnt beleive
billy has a fake ped, he should be able to shoot me down shouldnt he ? And im still waiting to hear his view either for or against mine on billys breeding , but his offering up nothing in this debate about billy apart from trying to smear me so
he can avoid saying anytihng that might prove mayfield was right about billy and eli,but it would kill randy to do it, because he trys
every chance he can to put any doubt into any story mayfiedl ever talked about, and randy is never normsally lost for words ,and look how much time he spends talking about me ,when
he might have at least given us his view one way or the other ,maybe hes hoping he can make people belive im mad aswell as mayfield rather than give us an opinion ,
i wonder why that is ragedog any guess's ? Maybe cos mayfield was right ?

And ragedog i think i also said that tombstone produced a great record as a porducer, so why are you saying that to me i agree of course he did
and i also said general was stolen and as such mayfield lost the opportunity
to further match him or breed him , and i asked you ragedog, who now wants to stick up
for poor old randy if you would like to be screwed over and think its ok to just take it , when if we can prove
that mayfield had the credit he deserved for breeding eli taken away from him, and a the chance to
also breed those dogs himself as he made the breeding lets not forget for himself , then do you
think that is absolutly acceptable in your opinion ? but i hope im wrong on that score
and that if you ever breed dogs now or in the fuutre and the same thing happens to you that i believe happend to mayfield
with eli, then i hope you find out and can get it put right ,isnt that the american way ragedog well maybe you
didnt read the facts , im not going to bother repeating them again if you want to see them there on this thread ,and
just so you and anyone else dont keep saying i want mayfield to get credit for the eli line, i dont, i would like anyone who has been robbed as the breeder of any litter they have breed to at least be given that credit when it can be proven as such, by the greater fraternity and i belive if the evidence is strong then also by the adba , but thats another matter .

Lets think about this for just one minute ,if after looking at the evidence or proof on billy
and its shows to be true, then eli would be automatically be doubtfull based on the fake billy
ped and i think that even randy might have to agree if not on a public forum that mayfield was indeed correct and is the breeder of the eli litter.
Now if going forward from that , we say that mayfield not only lost his right as the breeder, but also of being able to do what he had intended to do with that litter and as such was
robbed of that opportunity, as he was robbed of that opportunity to breed pit general who
he did not breed ,but who he would have undoubtedly bred into his family of dogs ,and again that was robbed from him, so ragedog i ask you out of courtesy , please look at the evidence i presented about billy which leads on to eli and if you dont agree with my view, please explain why with a theory or facts that makes more sense than the facts that i
presented to explain my theory, but if you do find that you agree with my theory, then
i think you will understand why i think it should be put right not just to give mayfield the
basic credit he desrves for the breeding , and to somehow balance out his lost opportunity, but for the game and breed in general so that we dont just acceppt that this happens and
we should just do and say nothing , even when we can, thats all i ask ok.

Now as you can see i have moved on to another dog, so im not going to wait for a miracle
from certain people on here, who only want to play mind games that they can't win, id rather keep the thread moving and i have posted another dog to the topic , before im accused of wanting to demonise somenone , but just remmber it takes two to tango ,and they try to play games im there , but anyway ragedog that wasnt about you they know who they are , but i would honestly like your view so if you can please take the time to give your considered opinion one way or the other i thank you.

[Foxman]

OK Project- Here goes. Have you ever seen these Bloodlines fight? The Cry Bavy stuff had a Medium Pace. If the old Eli dog would have been out of Crybaby. Eli should have been a slower fighting dog than he was and he should have stayed in holt better than he did. When he got tired he dropped his holts. How about The Nigger stuff and the Eli Stuff? Eli stuff fights all out a hunded miles per hour. Nigger stuff has a medium pace. Well I know you haven't. They do not fight alike. They have a little different system of winning. Looks like If the Eli dogs had any Mayfield blood in them they would similar in style. OK about Zebo. When Crossed with HoneyBunch the pups were not good dogs. HoneyBunch was out of Bullyson. If Zebo had been a Boudreaux dog. I believe a big percentage of those pups would have been good. Also, One unknown fact is Zebo produced not more winners but did produce more champions than Eli Jr. Or BullySon and a heck of a lot more than Nigger produced. If you line breed or inbreed Eli stuff you still get a good percentage of good dogs. But 90 percent of the inbred Nigger dogs are currs. If crossed right the Nigger dogs percentage is much higher but occasionally you will get a good inbred one. I oned several Nigger dogs and only had one game one. Mayfield crossed them with that Fitawater stuff he had and they came good. One female I had was bred on Tudor's yard and she quit for me. Now that is what they were like years ago. I'm not sure about today. Toot when he was on the chain and down in weight looked a lot like Tombstone. It isn't unusual for a dog to look like his sire no matter what the dam was. But back when the rumors you have acquired were established that's the way they were. Their action in the pit blows your theory all to crap. Is that any nicer. You still wont like that for an answer that is why I hesitated to hand it to you but it is a tad more proof than the word from dead folks and or rumors. If I say anything to you about the facts you change the story and say I'm after Mayfield. I'm not after him in any way he was off in left field toward the end of his life. Mayfield wasn't the same person for about three or four years before he died. I'm not sure what had happened to him mentally but something changed. He was a hell of a guy before that. Ask any of his friends. It isn't just me. Randy Fox

[projectx]

OK Project- Here goes. Have you ever seen these Bloodlines fight? The Cry Bavy stuff had a Medium Pace. If the old Eli dog would have been out of Crybaby. Eli should have been a slower fighting dog than he was and he should have stayed in holt better than he did. When he got tired he dropped his holts. How about The Nigger stuff and the Eli Stuff? Eli stuff fights all out a hunded miles per hour. Nigger stuff has a medium pace. Well I know you haven't. They do not fight alike. They have a little different system of winning. Looks like If the Eli dogs had any Mayfield blood in them they would similar in style. OK about Zebo. When Crossed with HoneyBunch the pups were not good dogs. HoneyBunch was out of Bullyson. If Zebo had been a Boudreaux dog. I believe a big percentage of those pups would have been good. Also, One unknown fact is Zebo produced not more winners but did produce more champions than Eli Jr. Or BullySon and a heck of a lot more than Nigger produced. If you line breed or inbreed Eli stuff you still get a good percentage of good dogs. But 90 percent of the inbred Nigger dogs are currs. If crossed right the Nigger dogs percentage is much higher but occasionally you will get a good inbred one. I oned several Nigger dogs and only had one game one. Mayfield crossed them with that Fitawater stuff he had and they came good. One female I had was bred on Tudor's yard and she quit for me. Now that is what they were like years ago. I'm not sure about today. Toot when he was on the chain and down in weight looked a lot like Tombstone. It isn't unusual for a dog to look like his sire no matter what the dam was. But back when the rumors you have acquired were established that's the way they were. Their action in the pit blows your theory all to crap. Is that any nicer. You still wont like that for an answer that is why I hesitated to hand it to you but it is a tad more proof than the word from dead folks and or rumors. Randy Fox

Randy thats posts a little more like it should have been , why all the annimosity before , but as for blowing my theory out of the water, well i dont think you do, not becuase i dont belive your opinion on a dogs fihgting stlye, and i might even agree with you on some points, but to blow my theory out of the water dont you think you should explain how dibo born in 1951 and billy born supposedly in 1952 (which would mean dibo was bred at one year old or less depending what month billy was whelped )and as we know as has been well documented that dibo was nearly 3 yrs old more or less before earl got him , and wasnt bred by tudor on the day he arrived on his yard , so even if we said dibo was on earls yard at exactly 2 years old, in march 1953 that would still
make it one year to late for him to be blind billys sire, and if it was nearer 3 yrs as is known then it would make it late 1953 or sometime in 1954 before dibo got to earls yard, so i would ask you randy as i have done in all my posts how do you explain that ? I can take on board your fighting styles opinion, but i think the dates need some explaining dont you before you can make such a bold statement as blowing my theory out of the water,i hesitate to say that to you incase you use it to say i wont belive anything you say , because im still waiting for a realistic explanation for how billy can be out of dibo based on those dates , and even making it earlier by one whole year doesnt make it possible, so as much as i take on board your opinons on fighting styles , that breeding wasnt done before by mayfield so how can anyone say what a dogs
fighting style will or wont be , and even dogs who line we know can be very different in style , i certaintly think that the dates need a lot more than that as an expalnation before you can say you blow my theory out of the water randy, i would
put it to you that if you presented your theory in a court of law, and mine i have a feeling the jury would blow yours out of the water as the dates are a prooof of fact , your opinion on what a dogs fighting style may or may not have been is just
an opinion and not a cast iron fact , and if crybaby x cotton as i believe were the true sire and dam to eli, then as that breeding had not been made before how can you or anyone else try to put that up as better evidence than the dobs of both dibo and blind billy which are not made up by me , but a record of fact and sworn to by floyd himself on billy , so randy
as much as i like the tone of your last post and hopefully whatever our views we can keep it to a level where we can agree
to disagree without getting to personal and just let others deicde what they want to believe or not believe, i think that rather than you blowing my theory out of the water randy i am very much still afloat and stillwaiting for that torpedo of facts to match my ones before anyone can say they have sunk me , but i can say this if they can i will be the first to
say well done , thats what were here for to learn more about true breedings not hide from them for fear that we have to play
a game of taking sides regadless of the truth , that gets us nowhere but down the same dead end road , but anyway take care randy ,i dont want to fight with you for the sakeof it, and when ever i think your right i will say so , no matter what has gone before , i believe in being fair regadless of alliances ok.

[CYJ]

Projectx, I enjoyed our chat and did discern that one of the voices was Don Mayfield on that Tape. I was unable to really hear all that was said between Don and Carver. Can be interesting to hear, it is our human nature to see or hear some new thing whether right or wrong. In the majority of cases and situations will never prove much of anything. You my poor fellow and in your own way of thinking, may mean well. But you still are beating on a dead horse. It is over, that horse has died 40 to 60 years ago. The guys in my time era got over it, best do the same.

For example I listen to the taped conversation of Pat Patrick supposedly admitting he had changed some papers on a specific dog. This taped conversation is on the You tube.

Since there was some big bucks to be made. Patrick could have just told this supposed foreigner what he wanted to hear to make a dog sell. Instead of those guys thinking they were getting something over on Patrick. He may have went down to the bank with their money. Laughing all the way. What did he really care one way or the other, if he was going to make a dog sale for a good amount of money. Tell the guy what he want's to hear.

I have seen some dog sellers single register their puppies and dogs. Instead of litter registering them. You come asking for a certain specific breeding and all of that litter was sold. You still going to get a pup or dog just like the breeding you want. These guys have to sell all those puppies not just the choice few. That dog breeder can not eat them. All have to be sold. That is not true in all cases with all dog kennels, but it has been done many a time.

Mr Howard Teal told a story one time of a young dog man that wanted to buy a pup out of a litter he had bred a certain way. He also had a adjoining litter of of extra nice pups in the next brood pen, but not bred the same way.

This young fellow wanted that certain breeding, maybe the Bullet stuff. But he really liked another pup out of that other litter which was bred some what different. So the guy is standing there looking back and forth and back forth. Finally Mr. Teal who is a business man and had many other things that needed attending to that day. Gets enough of it all and says look you like that other pup but you want these papers. Am I right in that assumption. The Reply is yes and the young man leaves with the papers he wanted on the other dog he wanted. So there you go, how many times you reckon that has been done. LOL


I know that Mr. Fox can very well defend himself. But to call him a sad individual is very disrespectable. Mr. Fox has seen more great dog matches than the majority of dog men in my time era ever saw. He matched some very good dogs and they were in condition to win. Mr. Fox was best of friends of top known dog men. In my time Era and we are about the same age give or take a little. Mr. Fox was considered then and now a very honest dog man. I never heard anyone speak bad of him.

You need to go over to Mr. Fox's site and read about his Alvin dog. Alvin was really the best of show and gamest of show dog that day. After the match, Mr. Earl Tudor said that Fox's Alvin was the Best match dog he had seen in forty years. That would have included many of Tudor' favorites like Spike and Jeff. Later Tudor was not calling D. Mayfield or D. Maloney or Burton looking for a good stud dog to breed to. He was calling Mr. Fox to see if he could get a breeding off the Alvin dog.

You said something about Zebo maybe being off that Eli dog. That story has been told before. The Lonzo Pratt's Andy & Mike dogs were two of Mr. Pratt's favorite dogs and Mike was a Pit Ace. He had no need of a Mayfield or Boudreaux's Eli dog to continue on his line of dogs. The hard bite that those dogs showed came primarily from Mr. Joe Beal's dogs which I knew very well. The last stud dog that Mr. Joe Beal used a lot before he died was a dog he got from me bred off My Chuck dog and his breeding on the dam's side. Dog's name was Southern Johnny Reb.

You wish to know about Mr. Pratt's dogs. Best talk with Tar Heel Matt. Tar Heel Matt was one of the young dog men that got along real well with Mr. Pratt. Matt knew his dogs and dog yard real well. Matt has sort of fallen off the map of lately. Hope all is well with him and family. Have called and P.M. him but no answers as of yet. I would bred a good bitch of my choice to the Apostle dog if I had one, in a New York Minute.

This whole topic has turned in the sort of what ever stuff you get on the on line pedigree site. No longer appears to be civil enough for my liking. The way Mr. Fox has been keyed on for just telling the truth to the best of his ability. He knows nothing about the Boudreaux Blind Billy dog no more than I do or Mayfield did. Only Boudreaux and Tudor know. The birth dates could just be a honest mistake. Even dog registries make lots of errors.

Lets not start another Cyber Bully rant like over on the other site. Cyber Bully left the other site, and I was thinking to myself, hope he does not show up over here. Cheers

[projectx]

Projectx, I enjoyed our chat and did discern that one of the voices was Don Mayfield on that Tape. I was unable to really hear all that was said between Don and Carver. Can be interesting to hear, it is our human nature to see or hear some new thing whether right or wrong. In the majority of cases and situations will never prove much of anything. You my poor fellow and in your own way of thinking, may mean well. But you still are beating on a dead horse. It is over, that horse has died 40 to 60 years ago. The guys in my time era got over it, best do the same.

For example I listen to the taped conversation of Pat Patrick supposedly admitting he had changed some papers on a specific dog. This taped conversation is on the You tube.

Since there was some big bucks to be made. Patrick could have just told this supposed foreigner what he wanted to hear to make a dog sell. Instead of those guys thinking they were getting something over on Patrick. He may have went down to the bank with their money. Laughing all the way. What did he really care one way or the other, if he was going to make a dog sale for a good amount of money. Tell the guy what he want's to hear.

I have seen some dog sellers single register their puppies and dogs. Instead of litter registering them. You come asking for a certain specific breeding and all of that litter was sold. You still going to get a pup or dog just like the breeding you want. These guys have to sell all those puppies not just the choice few. That dog breeder can not eat them. All have to be sold. That is not true in all cases with all dog kennels, but it has been done many a time.

Mr Howard Teal told a story one time of a young dog man that wanted to buy a pup out of a litter he had bred a certain way. He also had a adjoining litter of of extra nice pups in the next brood pen, but not bred the same way.

This young fellow wanted that certain breeding, maybe the Bullet stuff. But he really liked another pup out of that other litter which was bred some what different. So the guy is standing there looking back and forth and back forth. Finally Mr. Teal who is a business man and had many other things that needed attending to that day. Gets enough of it all and says look you like that other pup but you want these papers. Am I right in that assumption. The Reply is yes and the young man leaves with the papers he wanted on the other dog he wanted. So there you go, how many times you reckon that has been done. LOL


I know that Mr. Fox can very well defend himself. But to call him a sad individual is very disrespectable. Mr. Fox has seen more great dog matches than the majority of dog men in my time era ever saw. He matched some very good dogs and they were in condition to win. Mr. Fox was best of friends of top known dog men. In my time Era and we are about the same age give or take a little. Mr. Fox was considered then and now a very honest dog man. I never heard anyone speak bad of him.

You need to go over to Mr. Fox's site and read about his Alvin dog. Alvin was really the best of show and gamest of show dog that day. After the match, Mr. Earl Tudor said that Fox's Alvin was the Best match dog he had seen in forty years. That would have included many of Tudor' favorites like Spike and Jeff. Later Tudor was not calling D. Mayfield or D. Maloney or Burton looking for a good stud dog to breed to. He was calling Mr. Fox to see if he could get a breeding off the Alvin dog.

You said something about Zebo maybe being off that Eli dog. The Lonzo Pratt's Mike dog was Mr. Pratt's favorite dog and was a very good Pit Ace. He had no need of a Mayfield or Boudreaux's Eli dog to continue on his line of dog. You want to know about Mr. Pratt's dogs. Best talk with Tar Heel Matt.

Tar Heel Matt was one of the few dog men that got along real well with Mr. Pratt. Matt knew his dogs and dog yard real well. Matt has sort of fallen off the map of lately. Hope all is well with him and family. Have called and P.M. him but no answers as of yet. I would bred a good bitch of my choice to the Apostle dog if I had one, in a New York Minute.

This whole topic has turned in the sort of what ever stuff you get on the on line pedigree site. No longer appears to be civil enough for my liking. The way Mr. Fox has been keyed on for just telling the truth to the best of his ability. He knows nothing about the Boudreaux Blind Billy dog no more than I do or Mayfield did. Only Boudreaux and Tudor know. The birth dates could just be a honest mistake. Even dog registries make lots of errors.

Lets not start another Cyber Bully rant like over on the other site. Cyber Bully left the other site, and I was thinking to my self, hope he does not show up over here. Cheers

CYJ i would like to say that you are correct in most all you say ,and folks can and do say whatever other folks want to hear at tmes, ,but iwould say that in those mayfield audios , its just an extra way of learning something that may be all
true or not at all, but thats what god gave us all a brain and the freedom to use it to put the puzzle toggehter with as
many pieces that we have to hand.
As for zebo i never said i believed he was out of eli, i said that there were rumours and infact floyd i think had claimed he felt that eli was zebos sire , and i was asking what others thought about zebo and if anyone had any views as to his breeding, i have no reason to disbelieve his pedigree , but there were rumours and he is another very famous dog and it would have been intersting to see other peoples views on zebo, or any other dog that anyone else wants to talk about of interest .
As for me calling randy sad , well i was defending myself, as randy had not been saying much but trying to either discredit
me without any thoery as to why he believd or didnt beleive eli was out of crybaby x cotton, or that bily couldnt be correct based soley on the dates without any other circumstantial evidence to support it, and when i was attaked i defended myself as i my right to do so , and up untill randys last post he had done only that , were at leastin his last post he gives some reason as to why he thinks eli is correct , but up untill then it was like extracting teeth getting an answer from him, but he was plenty rude to me also , and randy may be the msot honest man in the world and respected by everyone, but
that doesnt give him anymore right to be rude to me either, and if his opinion is his honest one ok , i dont happen to
agree with it , but if were now going to say that the dob of dibo is or could be wrong , when floyd not once but twice and in all these years has never changed billys dob, and dibos dob has never been questioned, then i would say that
if the dates are correect which i nor anyone else can have reason to say there not, then the truth lies with mayfield
and yes the dogs are long dead now, but does that mean we should forget about it, and leave the innocent man in prison ?
while the guilty walk free ? i wonder if you or i were in prison for 40 years and the evidence could free us, do you think
it would be right to just say nothing or do the right thing? I dont think either so you or me CYJ believe blind billy is bred like floyd shows him or eli , and if we have reached the point where we want to put the dob of dibo in doubt to somehow to make floyds verson more believable, then i think we may aswell say we will put in doubt every pedigree we have and just toss them all aside and say to hell with it and live in a constant caos of what if possibilties and scenarios to suit our needs
and to hell with the truth when we have the chance to find it, and god knows thats not very often with gamedogs, but i for one dont want to be part of that no way.

Ps just to show you that i would rather dogs than get into silly personel stuff which
may lead me and others to sometimes say things we dont always want to say or mean to say , and if i have been excessivvely disrespectfull to randy i wasnt
going looking for a fight and to my mind i was only giving as good as i got , but if you
thought that i was CYJ then my genuine appolgy is given to randy .

[ragedog10]

I do not believe you have any facts whatsoever plain and simple, you have what amounts to heresy. Yes you have Mayfield tapes but why is word better than Floyds? Mr. Fox explained the styles of the strains and if you do dogs you under stand most families of dog's have similar styles. I do believe your intention s were good but it seems you have gotten wrapped up in and all. What done is done like CJY said this was talked about years ago. And yes Blind Billy produced a great line and so did Eli and it's still good today regardless of how you think it may be bred. They way you keeping talking about these tapes sounds down right Fanatical. I'm done with this as its pointless trying to reason with you. Yis Ole Man

[Gotta12v]

what are the adba dob for dibo and billy

also randy got me thinking when he mentioned how zebo and honey produce together. ive heard that honeybuch could have been out of ironhead and if that was true if could explain why he didn't produce with honey but did with clemmons pepper (eli boze) to produce niggertoby and lupe (eli boze carver) to produce huey who prodced t-bud

eli family breeders bred toby and t-bud dogs in there pure eli yards

[CYJ]

One last thought on this matter. If the breeding of Mayfield's Little Cotton to Start's Cry Baby was very important to Don. He got Cry Baby back from Boudreaux. Why did he not make the breeding again when Cry Baby came back in heat?

Surely both dogs had not both died in less than 6 to 8 months. Even the Lightning I and II dog had similar breeding to the Mayfield's little Cotton dog. Of all those dog bloodlines Don had. I liked those Lightning I & II dogs a lot. Believe he got some good match dogs off that line. Cheers

[projectx]

I do not believe you have any facts whatsoever plain and simple, you have what amounts to heresy. Yes you have Mayfield tapes but why is word better than Floyds? Mr. Fox explained the styles of the strains and if you do dogs you under stand most families of dog's have similar styles. I do believe your intention s were good but it seems you have gotten wrapped up in and all. What done is done like CJY said this was talked about years ago. And yes Blind Billy produced a great line and so did Eli and it's still good today regardless of how you think it may be bred. They way you keeping talking about these tapes sounds down right Fanatical. I'm done with this as its pointless trying to reason with you. Yis Ole Man

RAGE dog i menton the tapes just because they happen to be very interesting , but i cant beleive that you dont think the dates of birth of dibo and blind billy are not important , yet you want to use a dogs style as more proof of the true breeding thatn dates of birth that prove the sire can in no way be dibo , but i may aswell use the old saying that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink, but you are intitlerd to your view, albeit completly upside down as to what proof is and isnt, but good luck all the same .

[projectx]

what are the adba dob for dibo and billy

also randy got me thinking when he mentioned how zebo and honey produce together. ive heard that honeybuch could have been out of ironhead and if that was true if could explain why he didn't produce with honey but did with clemmons pepper (eli boze) to produce niggertoby and lupe (eli boze carver) to produce huey who prodced t-bud

eli family breeders bred toby and t-bud dogs in there pure eli yards

Hi gotta 12 the dob for dibo is march 21 1951 , and floyd says blind billy was born in 1952 , and i think we know when earl got dibo in his yard so on those dobs alone without any of hte talk about black dogs and what a coincidence that two years later floyd shows up at putside with eli and ohter dogmen who ahd seen crybaby nursing pups which were supposed to have died , whcih is all circumstantial just as msot talk is, but the dobs are not they are as much of a fact as we have on any dsiputed breeding we could ever tallk about .

As for zebo it all very interesting , and i also heard that about ironhead , but i think with zebo and others its going ot be a case of how do we dsipute zebos known peidigree on a hunch that maybe when stolen eli was bred and produced zebo , it would be a push to make the leap , but of course it might be possoble, but im not sure that any info will ever surface as to that being true or not, but its intersting hearing the various views on zebo.

The ironhead one i heard was that with ironhead you could always be sure if he had sired a litter as his marking dominated the litter , and i think ed crenshaw believed that there were far less pups out of ironhead than there were suposed to be
becasue of that, and also as he was well bred carver would sell you a pedigree and that was also supposed to be true with bullyson when he was all the rage back then, but of course its all a case of what makes sense and looking at all the bits and maaking the best decsion we can about these thingsa.

[projectx]

One last thought on this matter. If the breeding of Mayfield's Little Cotton to Start's Cry Baby was very important to Don. He got Cry Baby back from Boudreaux. Why did he not make the breeding again when Cry Baby came back in heat?

Surely both dogs had not both died in less than 6 to 8 months. Even the Lightning I and II dog had similar breeding to the Mayfield's little Cotton dog. Of all those dog bloodlines Don had. I liked those Lightning I & II dogs a lot. Believe he got some good match dogs off that line. Cheers

Hi CYJ well who knows maybe he did try, i can tell you myself that getting breedings done isnt always easy , and of course don did have other dogs to breed and maybe he didnt have both anymore , we have to remmber don only put crybay on floyds ayrd as he was having some trouble at home and maybe crybaby wasnt the only one he farmed out at the time, but
CYJ i would ask you do you think that blind billy and eli are bred as paprered , and if so how do you square the dobs if they are as believed to be correct ? That question is like the magic bullet thoery that the warren commision put out to cover up the kennedy assasination, and if we to try make blind billy out of dibo it is about as unbelievable as that magic bullet theory , but hey miracles do happen dont they .

[ragedog10]

The interview with Floyd was in 1989 I believe could be wrong, Billy was born in 1952 it was 37 years later did you ever stop to think maybe he simply forgot? That would be a honest mistake seeing how so much time had passed. But really none of us know and have no way of knowing , the only reason I mentioned style is because lines throw similar traits on a consistent basis. I think you're heart is in the right place but you are reading to much into this conspiracy theory. I hope you get some closure on this subject, I ve been around these dogs a long time and there s always someone who knows the truth about a great dog. Best of luck Ole Man

[projectx]

The interview with Floyd was in 1989 I believe could be wrong, Billy was born in 1952 it was 37 years later did you ever stop to think maybe he simply forgot? That would be a honest mistake seeing how so much time had passed. But really none of us know and have no way of knowing , the only reason I mentioned style is because lines throw similar traits on a consistent basis. I think you're heart is in the right place but you are reading to much into this conspiracy theory. I hope you get some closure on this subject, I ve been around these dogs a long time and there s always someone who knows the truth about a great dog. Best of luck Ole Man

Hi ragedog, floyd may have got many things wrong just like we all can and do , but that interview and the story of blind billy and eli has never changed and floyd has been saying the same things including the dates from day one and long before 89 that wasnt the first time ragedog and people were questioning his pedigree for blind billy back in the 60s and floyd always told the same story he told in 89 , so rather than you
or anyone else wanting to find a way to give floyd the benfit of the doubt why can't we just be honest about it and lets
stop trying to make excuses for him when its obvious, and its a perfect example of that old saying that you had better make sure you remmber your lies , because if you dont they will end up finding you out, and thats exactly what happend with
blind billy and eli, and as for closure i dont need it, closure is for people who still need to know the truth about something ,and i got closure a long time ago to satisfy me as to what is true, but maybe you and others who just cant bring themselves to see it are much more in need of closure not me, and maybe the closure as i have said before should be for mayfield ,as he is
the man who has been called mad crazy and jealous for telling us the truth, so maybe if you gave mayfield the same break and benefit of the doubt that you are willing to give floyd
eventough the evidence of dobs is overwhelming without any of the other circumstantial
and hearsay evidence which i havent even said much about ,then maybe just maybe
justice would be done and then there would be closure for everyone dont you think so ragedog.

[Officially Retired]

If Mayfield was so smart, and knew so much about breeding dogs and breeding theory, then why wasn't he more successful as a breeder compared to those he talked about?

None of what he has said is a "fact" ... it's merely "what he says" ...

Jack

PS: A dog born in March of 51 could easily sire a litter in 52 ... and would be 18 months old by September. Could also have been bred to on Heinzl's yard for all we know. Birthdates could be wrong on the papers, etc.

[Foxman]

Gotta12V I heard that story about HoneyBunch being out of Ironhead to. I blew it off because I heard it after Bullyson quit. So I figured they switched fathers to help sell pups or keep the fame. Yet there were several IronHead-Eli crosses here in Oklahoma that were good dogs. Not sure they were papered that way but the guys that owned them said they were bred that way. This all puts me in mind of Maurice saying I'll sell you the soup but not the recipe. There is projectX another one to solve. There were lots of false stuff that went on. I'm aware of that but it isn't my place to correct it when it is impossible to know the truth except through DNA. The subjects you might choose to DNA for proof. They just have to have one lie on their pedigree to mess up test answer. So it is impossible to know or fix. That is why I played around with ProjectX. It is a very impossible task to get a correct answer. There are some things Mayfield said I didn't like. One thing I did not like is that when I ask him if it bothered him if one of his dogs he fought got hurt bad. He said no as long as they live to fight him another day. That is quiet a bit more heartless than me. I tried to shut out close feelings but it was impossible for me. Earl Tudor was soft hearted about losing a dog. I've been by his place when one died. He'd tell me about it and have tears in his eyes. Anyway I truly believe all this about who was bred this way or that way is a waste of time and impossible to solve. Yet it does let lots of people entertain themselves with their writing and rambling and the talk about their theories with their impossible solutions. I have a life with my family and that is more important and interesting to me. I keep my records straight on my pups and they are kept correct here and that is all I can say for sure. I wouldn't be able to sleep if I lied about any breeding. My wife wouldn't ever talk to me again either. I hope everyone has a job that needs it and had a good Christmas. At least you all know who you are talking to and bad mouthing. When it is me your bad mouthing. That is more than I can say about lots of hidden identies on here. I have no secrets to hide. Randy Fox

[CrazyRed]

Some folks think every great Black dog has Eli behind it and every Mayfield fancier thinks Eli is a dog Mayfield bred. One thing, why not incorporate any of that Eli blood in the yard?

Far as Zebo, no way he was son of Eli, nothing about him says Eli besides the fact he was a destroyer and black. He looks just like his daddy Andy and he looks and performs like Mike and those dogs down off Mike. If anything Vindy & Rosie might be the dogs that are questioned out of that breeding but before folks go to question that please know that Beal's dog Powhattan was a Red RN dog. Pow is also off Snowball, and that litter "Andy x Angie" was Grandfather bred back to his grandaughter which was also his niece who was off his half brother/uncle.

[CrazyRed]

what are the adba dob for dibo and billy

also randy got me thinking when he mentioned how zebo and honey produce together. ive heard that honeybuch could have been out of ironhead and if that was true if could explain why he didn't produce with honey but did with clemmons pepper (eli boze) to produce niggertoby and lupe (eli boze carver) to produce huey who prodced t-bud

eli family breeders bred toby and t-bud dogs in there pure eli yards

I dont think she was off Ironhead, I think it's very possible she was off Bullyson x Amber. I personally believe her to be off Ch Cracker who is Amber's sire. In fact many of the Jeep dogs I've owned and came across resemble Cracker more than anything. The buckskin with the black ticked in is something that holds true even today in heavy bred Jeep/Honeybunch dogs. I truly believe if Honey isn't off Bully x Amber then she is directly off Cracker possible inbred Cracker back to his daughter Amber.

[No Quarter Kennel]

WOw you are one piece of work NQK your come on hear and call me a lair, i go out of my way to contact a member CYJ
who i didnt know at all ,but who seemed to be a knowledgeable and reasonable man by his posts , and who had made comments that he knew mayfeild and jackson , so thought if he heard the tapes he could confirm it as he did , and infact the first thing cyj said to me was (thats mayfields voice alright) and infact i am going to play him the audio
of maloney and others , and i would even call you to play it over the phone, but as you wouldnt belive it anyway as your
shitty appolgy showed, you can take it and stick where the sun dont shine .
AS for me wanting to prove people as dishonest, well to answer your question, NQK
this thread is about disputed peidgreews, i wonder if you even bothered to look at the psots which do have some good points , form various people ,and maybe its just me, but i wonder if you would be saying that if you had an interest in a line or the breed as you should being you call yourself a breeder , wouldnt you like to know how arguably the seocnd most important line of modern times was really bred ? or only if it meant being able to disagree with me i wonder.

Nqk i have no doubt seeing how you with no reason and certainly no evidence called me a lair and said i didnt have the tapes, and your caling me obbsesed by wanting to asking questions about how some famous dogs might or might not have been bred ? you are a piece of work and i would gladly call you and play you some audio and then tell you to take a hike .

By the way i agree with you that many of the men we talk about have not lead the msot saintly of lives ,and as such just
blindly taking anyones word is stupid, but you see the audios which don recodred are his conversations with other men talking also so we have the words of more than one man , so that always helps when weighing up any theorys any of us may have , but there are some people who are dishonest in one way but wouldnt be dishonest about something else, and theirs many examples of that, im sure we all know or have a friend who might in one way have negative points but we like
them , but as we know them we can make exceptions for that side of them, and the same goes im sure for every damn one of us.

Now NQK you can choose to be the lesser man and to make me such an appology shows what a little man you really are , but if thats the level of man you are then you are no sportsman , even two fighters shake hands win or lose, and to be honest i dont dislike you i never have , its you who decided you disliked me since i told you something you didnt like hearing about, and i was actually trying to help you , but thats your loss not mine, and ever since all you do is try to put me down and even accused me of lying with no good reason , so before you go calling anyone a lair or obbssed take a good look at yourself NQK and if you have any decency you will give me an honest appology not that shamefull sarcastic one you posted , that was a disgracefull thing to do but as i am a bigger man than you merry chrsitmas all the same .

You are insane dude.
Worry about things you can control and forget everything else.
I dislike you based on the bullshit you spew on here constantly. You are that guy, no matter what is presented or brought to you, you will NEVER change. You are a stagnant pool of water that ultimately becomes so toxic it's poison.
As for honest people in some areas and not others - BULLSHIT! A guy is either honest or he's not.

I don't know if you are liar or not, but your tapes prove absolutely NOTHING! NO ONE on this planet can confirm those tapes are the men you claim them to be. No one can prove they are not. If this shit went to a court of law, your tapes WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. YOU KNOW WHY??????? B/c no one can prove it's them. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. However, it's what you hang ALL of your "proof" on. It is not enough. I' not even saying that you are wrong - but that you CANNOT IN ANY WAY IN HELL PROVE IT - SO THEREFORE - LET IT GO.

I apologize for calling you a liar as I don't KNOW if you are lying or not.
I also apologize for your ignorance that you cannot see or understand yourself.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I think Mayfield recorded conversations with other dogmen without their consent b/c 1. He was paranoid as hell 2. He wanted to use confidential info for and against different people and 3. He was probably a fucking snitch and used these tapes against rivals.

Why in the hell else would someone tape conversations of other people

[Officially Retired]

I dont think she was off Ironhead, I think it's very possible she was off Bullyson x Amber. I personally believe her to be off Ch Cracker who is Amber's sire. In fact many of the Jeep dogs I've owned and came across resemble Cracker more than anything. The buckskin with the black ticked in is something that holds true even today in heavy bred Jeep/Honeybunch dogs. I truly believe if Honey isn't off Bully x Amber then she is directly off Cracker possible inbred Cracker back to his daughter Amber.

This is what I believe also ...

[Officially Retired]

I think Mayfield recorded conversations with other dogmen without their consent b/c 1. He was paranoid as hell 2. He wanted to use confidential info for and against different people and 3. He was probably a fucking snitch and used these tapes against rivals.
Why in the hell else would someone tape conversations of other people


I can understand why, because it sets a precedence of the person being a liar.

I taped 3 conversations of me and Pat Patrick, a long time ago when I was a beginner, when he and I were on the verge of falling out. I was a green nobody then, and he had personally told me of the "true breeding" of so many dogs, that I felt this needed to be documented. So I do "get" why Mayfield would want to preserve on tape "the true breedings" behind some famous dogs. (Same as Bobby Smith got Pat Patrick to admit Ch Blaze was really off of Reuben.) I personally never made my tapes public ... but I may too someday when I am old, angry, and bored ... same as I did when I published Smith's tape when I The Truth about Mason's Ch Hammer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/content.php?201) :lol:

This doesn't necessarily make a person a snitch; it might be the only way for the truth to get out. I could likewise publish the tapes with Patrick admitting how Buck, Cheryl Tiegs, and Ch Chewy are really bred, but since I don't run dogs down from these lines (like I do Ch Hammer), I have never bothered.

Jack

PS: Ultimately, I agree it doesn't matter anymore, but it does make for interesting historical footnotes for discussion.

[projectx]

If Mayfield was so smart, and knew so much about breeding dogs and breeding theory, then why wasn't he more successful as a breeder compared to those he talked about?

None of what he has said is a "fact" ... it's merely "what he says" ...

Jack

PS: A dog born in March of 51 could easily sire a litter in 52 ... and would be 18 months old by September. Could also have been bred to on Heinzl's yard for all we know. Birthdates could be wrong on the papers, etc.

Jack mayfield was a very good breeder and bred some very good dogs and i think to say otherwise is being very hard indeed i think in texas alone the yards he helped with dogs from his family never mind the others he sent to dogmen
form texas to canada and california to new york who were more than happy with them and would still today wish they could gets dogs bred like
that mayfield sent them.
As for waht mayfield said being fact a fact,well i dont think i am saying everything he said is a fact, of course theres always another possiblity, but i think you yourself agreed with the tombstone theory which was like most things that have a lot of hearsay and circumstantial evidence and gut feelings rather than stone cold facts, we use our inteligence to try put the pieces in place and make the correct decsion on them as best as we can and to our satisfaction.

I do however think that although their is an outside chance that dibo born in march 21 of 1951 might have been the sire to a dog , in this instance blind billy , we would need to change up the dates and facts that we know and have never been disputed or had any doubt thrown on them untill you said it about the dobs , and it seems odd that we would rather move heaven and earth just to make floyds story fit rather than use the facts or things that we know from dibos history and floyds own words which as i said he has been sayiig since the 60s but would rather decide not to see what is right in front of our noses
instead.

Ok lets look at the what if scenario of it might be true, well unless anyone else can prove that dibos dobs is incorrect, then i think we need to take that as a starting point for this case.So dibos dob march 21 1951 we also know and untill
there is any proof otherwise dibo wasnt bred by anyone untill earl tudor got him on his yard, and that was at around 3 years old at least and so his first breeding may have been even later ,but lets say he was 2 just to give floyd a break shall we, so that would mean ,(and im being very generous is giving floyd back a year here), that dibo was on earls yard in march of 1953 (which he wasnt ) but blind billy by floyds own words from the hr time he got billy onwards was that billy was born in 1952 which still means its impossible, unless of course we play the lets make anything possible game and
every dob or knowledge we have on any dog in doubt then we can make it fit the story.

Just like you saying well maybe heinzl bred him, well maybe he did ,but we do know heinzl never thought much of the dog , and infact thats the first time anyone has ever said that as an excuse for a what if scenario on blind billy, but then
floyd also said he got billy by trading some roosters for him, and theres never been any mention that heinzl ever bred blind billy.

So like most things that dont fit when we try to make them fit they never do fit properly, and like i said with the evidence we have and even being generous on the dates ( which im sure no one would do for mayfield)just for the purpose of this thread , i dont see how an intleigent man can make the leap from what is believable to something that doesnt make realistic sense at all .

Jack with the tombstone dog for example , eventhough i believe baby was his dam as you do,and not based on mayfields own words alone or his overall gut feeling , becasue he himself was never 100% satistisfied enough to breed tombstone
eventhough he was sure baby was the dam, and even with maloney on audio confirming that and then some 5 mins later
changes it to say the gina bitch ,mayfield wouldnt take the chance of breeding him into his family , and then years later
a dogman from arkansas who mayfield didnt know personally but i am sure someone on here will know who he was, called mayfield and during the conversation and he asks mayfiled what he thought about tombstone and if he liked him etc and why he
never shows up in any of mayfields pedigrees, and mayfield tells him that he couldnt for sure get the truth about the dam to satisfy him so
he sold him but with breeding rights just in case he could ever get the truth .Well on hearing that this the man tells mayfield that he was a friend of bob wallace who was a much older man than this fellow, and bob wallace told this man that
when maloney claimed that gina was on his yard whelping tombstone bobs said gina was onn his yard, and mayfield says, well im not surpirsed, that makes sense to me, i never did believe tombstone was out of that gina bitch ,and you telling me that story
about bob wallace confirms that to me, and mayfield then says if bob wallace said that i would believe him , infact i would beleive
just about anything bob wallace had to say , as wallace was known as a very honest and direct man who prided himself on his honesty .Now that is an example of a scenario that although i tend to believe the mayfield gut feeling and wallace scenario,it is more than possible that mayfield could have been wrong and that wallace was mistaken and that maloney
was telling the truth and gina was the dam, there is no conclusive evidence to really prove one theory wrong or one theory right, this one is more a case of piecing the puzzle toggether with the pieces we have and making a decison based on the picture as a whole , but i would be the first to say we will just have to leave it as is and move on as it would be unfair
regardless of gut feeling to just changes it now, so that to me is an example of a reasonable what if scenarios being realistically possible, but not the blind billy story.

I am not trying to convince anyone im just putting it out there, and if we look the evidence without trying to play the what if scenario then of all the dogs that have been talked about so far in this thread , and probably every other dog that will ever be talked about
in a thread like this, i dont think we will ever have more proof about a dog than we do on billy,and even without adding in all the circumstantial and hearsay evidence that we could add to the blind billy and eli story i think just on dobs alone and the known story makes it very hard to say its not true, but if people want to beleive floyds version
or what i believe is the true version thats fine by me , take care .

[projectx]

You are insane dude.
Worry about things you can control and forget everything else.
I dislike you based on the bullshit you spew on here constantly. You are that guy, no matter what is presented or brought to you, you will NEVER change. You are a stagnant pool of water that ultimately becomes so toxic it's poison.
As for honest people in some areas and not others - BULLSHIT! A guy is either honest or he's not.

I don't know if you are liar or not, but your tapes prove absolutely NOTHING! NO ONE on this planet can confirm those tapes are the men you claim them to be. No one can prove they are not. If this shit went to a court of law, your tapes WOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. YOU KNOW WHY??????? B/c no one can prove it's them. Maybe it is, maybe it's not. However, it's what you hang ALL of your "proof" on. It is not enough. I' not even saying that you are wrong - but that you CANNOT IN ANY WAY IN HELL PROVE IT - SO THEREFORE - LET IT GO.

I apologize for calling you a liar as I don't KNOW if you are lying or not.
I also apologize for your ignorance that you cannot see or understand yourself.

NQK you called me a lair , you have yet to give me a decent appolgy and as a man which i assume you are , all you have done is say nothing on this thread apart forpm call me a lair and other hidious things , and not once have you given this thread the courtesy of your years of peddling pups to give your views on any dogs mentioned ,but like the obviuos weasel of a man that you are, you call me a lair then when i prove i do have audios that mayfield put out , you dont even have the couurage of a mouse to give a man a decent appology, hell i even appologised to foxamn becasue CYJ who i talked to just the other day for the first time and who i think is a good guy , said i may have overstepped the mark calling foxamn sad, so i gave foxman a genuine appology, you on the otherhand are obviously trialer trash of the worst kind and apart form tell you i think hammonds line is not what it used to be and talk to you about the henry blood, what exaclty have i done to you for you to hate me this much,? You called me a lair, and think that if it was me having said that to you or given me a sarcastic appology and then this last post where you show whos the toxic one, cos if im toxic, then what are the ones who lies to us about our dogs pedigrees ? what are they NQK angels? why is it always the one trying to say something that might actually be true that is called toxic, ? why dont you try adding something usefull to the thread instead of attacking me out of jealosuy and gods knows what other insecurites you suffer from . And honest and decent your not cos you dont act like an honest and decent man NQK, who judges others with statements like (a man is either honest or dishonest), well then your sole lack of honesty in not bieng a real man and having the courage to take back what you called me and give me a geniune appology shows how damn honest and decnet you are NQK , so if your not going to give me that appology
then save your psots to the subject of the thread, otherwsie all your doing by insulting me is doing exactly what you accused me of and thats making a mockery of this thread or something like that so try to be productive , use that thing inside your head called a brain to think about the thread and maybe you can put out a theory of your own without anyones help but if you want to play games with me do it in pm i dont want to be accussed of turning this thread bad becasue of you NQK got it!!

I just forgot to add this ,and i dont care if you dont think the men on these tapes are actually the men i say they are, i think anyone who knew them would know its them , just like jack knows its him talking to patrick on his own tapes, and im sure patricks voice will be regonisable to most folks who have ever hard him talk,orare you trying to say that mayfield made up all 400+ audio tapes with actors playing the parts of earl tudor maurice carver frank fitzwater don maloney and about every other dogman to ever take a piss , wow thats some all star cast and some actors.
Your msot funny statement NQK ,and on that shows your inteligence as you seem to question mine with ease, is the statement you made at the end of your post, with your second disgracefull appolgy to me but of course your appolgys always seem to carry another insult , which might say more about your upbring9ng than anything else , but
only a truly stupid and cretinous person would say as you said to me , and i quote NQK
below.

( I apologize for calling you a liar as I don't KNOW if you are lying or not)

NQK then goes on to say below and i quote

( I also apologize for your ignorance that you cannot see or understand yourself )


although i would love to accept a genuine appology from NQK , i feel that
for any appology to be meant and accepted it should be given without any added insults
otherwise it is hardly an appology is it.

But for him to appologise for my ignorance after his first quote from
which i nearly died from laughing so hard ,is about the most contradictory
and stupid statement that only a village idiot could make wihtout realising
how stupid it sounds and still post it,and certainley the man who makes a statement like
that has no place calling other peolpe ignorant, unless of course they were
looking in mirror at the time they wrote it, which may have confused a person
whos brain works on the same level as the average village idiot .

[projectx]

I think Mayfield recorded conversations with other dogmen without their consent b/c 1. He was paranoid as hell 2. He wanted to use confidential info for and against different people and 3. He was probably a fucking snitch and used these tapes against rivals.

Why in the hell else would someone tape conversations of other people

Nqk i completly agree that mayfield never had their consent, im sure they wouldnt have said the things they did had they known he was recording them , which actually makes the tapes that much more interesting and important, and he probably was paranoid , with good reason, but to call him a snitch , there you go again NQK full accusations with no proof as usuall you must like calling folks lairs but not even a theory on any of the dogs so far, just here to throw shit and hate on me and mayfield , well at least try to put up a theory if dont believe a man like i have done with floyd , at least it isnt just becasue i hate him , i dont but i dont believe him on blind billy, but at least i try to explain why ,what do you do on this thread NQK apart from insult me and look for fight that you cant win , maybe actually making a post about the dogs might be an idea to get you started with .

[bolero]

Randy thats posts a little more like it should have been , why all the annimosity before , but as for blowing my theory out of the water, well i dont think you do, not becuase i dont belive your opinion on a dogs fihgting stlye, and i might even agree with you on some points, but to blow my theory out of the water dont you think you should explain how dibo born in 1951 and billy born supposedly in 1952 (which would mean dibo was bred at one year old or less depending what month billy was whelped )and as we know as has been well documented that dibo was nearly 3 yrs old more or less before earl got him , and wasnt bred by tudor on the day he arrived on his yard , so even if we said dibo was on earls yard at exactly 2 years old, in march 1953 that would still
make it one year to late for him to be blind billys sire, and if it was nearer 3 yrs as is known then it would make it late 1953 or sometime in 1954 before dibo got to earls yard, so i would ask you randy as i have done in all my posts how do you explain that ? I can take on board your fighting styles opinion, but i think the dates need some explaining dont you before you can make such a bold statement as blowing my theory out of the water,i hesitate to say that to you incase you use it to say i wont belive anything you say , because im still waiting for a realistic explanation for how billy can be out of dibo based on those dates , and even making it earlier by one whole year doesnt make it possible, so as much as i take on board your opinons on fighting styles , that breeding wasnt done before by mayfield so how can anyone say what a dogs
fighting style will or wont be , and even dogs who line we know can be very different in style , i certaintly think that the dates need a lot more than that as an expalnation before you can say you blow my theory out of the water randy, i would
put it to you that if you presented your theory in a court of law, and mine i have a feeling the jury would blow yours out of the water as the dates are a prooof of fact , your opinion on what a dogs fighting style may or may not have been is just
an opinion and not a cast iron fact , and if crybaby x cotton as i believe were the true sire and dam to eli, then as that breeding had not been made before how can you or anyone else try to put that up as better evidence than the dobs of both dibo and blind billy which are not made up by me , but a record of fact and sworn to by floyd himself on billy , so randy
as much as i like the tone of your last post and hopefully whatever our views we can keep it to a level where we can agree
to disagree without getting to personal and just let others deicde what they want to believe or not believe, i think that rather than you blowing my theory out of the water randy i am very much still afloat and stillwaiting for that torpedo of facts to match my ones before anyone can say they have sunk me , but i can say this if they can i will be the first to
say well done , thats what were here for to learn more about true breedings not hide from them for fear that we have to play
a game of taking sides regadless of the truth , that gets us nowhere but down the same dead end road , but anyway take care randy ,i dont want to fight with you for the sakeof it, and when ever i think your right i will say so , no matter what has gone before , i believe in being fair regadless of alliances ok.
how about your dates are wrong mayb floyd was mistaken or mayb earl lied ever think of that mayb earl bred dibo as a puppy and had billy for a while before he gave him to floyd

[Foxman]

Jack, The problem with any dogman that lies and says it is a lie but the second story he is fixing to share with you is the correct one. I have a problem with any story he tells. The first second or third. Whether it is recorded on the phone or otherwise. All he is doing by saying he is now expressing the true breeding is confessing he is a lier. So how could a person believe anything he says. A good attorney would completely ruin a witness using that approach. It's something to talk about among friends but I am not convinced anything any of those guys say like Patrick is ever the truth. I can see a mistake like saying it was the 24th when he was born then shortly after that statement saying I was wrong it was the 28th but to tell a Whole line of dogs you lied about then say you lied and here is the new truth. I'm out on that crap. Randy Fox

[Officially Retired]

Jack, The problem with any dogman that lies and says it is a lie but the second story he is fixing to share with you is the correct one. I have a problem with any story he tells. The first second or third. Whether it is recorded on the phone or otherwise. All he is doing by saying he is now expressing the true breeding is confessing he is a lier. So how could a person believe anything he says. A good attorney would completely ruin a witness using that approach. It's something to talk about among friends but I am not convinced anything any of those guys say like Patrick is ever the truth. I can see a mistake like saying it was the 24th when he was born then shortly after that statement saying I was wrong it was the 28th but to tell a Whole line of dogs you lied about then say you lied and here is the new truth. I'm out on that crap. Randy Fox

I hear what you're saying.

As a fraud investigator for over 12 years, who then either settles claims or litigates/prosecutes them with attorneys, I am well versed in dealing with lies.

The key word is motive.

When Patrick was telling me "the inside scoop," it was as a confidant. When he was lying, it was either because someone wanted "a Maloney dog" (so he papered it that way to make $$) ... or it was because a famous stud was shooting blanks (so he used a no-name son to cover for the elder, so again he could make $$) ... or it was to take some dog that made Champion off a dead stud (and re-paper it under an active stud, so again he could promote that living stud), etc.

When I was being told "the truth" there was no financial motive ... it was just during 3-hour conversations shooting the breeze. But, I agree, once a person is a confirmed liar on paperwork ... it's hard to take their word seriously if the money is on the line.

Jack

[CYJ]

Wish I still had my old Pete Spark's Bound books and the older Blood lines magazines. A lot of those older pedigrees are in those books. Only way to check is get a printed copy of both pedigrees. The errors may or may not be there. I think it is just a human error and nothing more. Mr.Tudor was a Game Chicken man and Boudreaux had access to some good Game Chicken stock. Cajuns liked the Game Chicken Sport probably more than the dogs. Some of the best Game Chicken breeders lived in Cajun country.

Bass' Tramp Red Boy was bred to other bitches before Bass owned him. Mr. Martin was breeding him early as 12 to 14 months or so. Rowell had one of those breeding's off Martin's lady called Ringo. My brother had Ringo's full sister named Liz. Both dogs were black and white.

So a male dog can be bred at a young age. A Black man owned Dibo for a good while and was how this dog got his name. He could have bred Dibo as well, before anybody else got him. He may have had no papers and Heinzl had to apply for them. Nothing can be proved by just a conservation were two dog men may have just been feeling each other out.

When Pit General got stole, sure the conversation between Mayfield and Carver was more of a feeling each other out. Mayfield was running up and down rabbit trails. Carver may have been a suspect.

The conversation between Mayfield and Maloney could have been Maloney screwing with Don. Flip flopping in the conversation to have a little fun. See how one can build up assumptions. Why certain type picture taking and taped conversations without the person knowing can not be used in a court of law. Or if court approved the other lawyer is to have access to them as well to prepare a proper defense.

I worked and retired from the Telephone company. If one is being recorded with certain type equipment approved to be used by a Court Order. The approved equipment was placed on the main frame inside the Telephone Central Office and tagged.

A person being recorded without permission and outside premises equipment used. Would hear a intermediate beep back in those days. If a off premise extension was put on a main telephone line. The Telephone company would notify the main house # and let that person know about the off premise extension.

So if Carver/Maloney/Patrick or who ever heard those beeps. Knew they were being recorded and might could have just played along. One thing I have learned in my life is how one treats others are generally how you get treated back. As the old saying goes, What goes around comes around. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

Jack mayfield was a very good breeder and bred some very good dogs and i think to say otherwise is being very hard indeed i think in texas alone the yards he helped with dogs from his family never mind the others he sent to dogmen
form texas to canada and california to new york who were more than happy with them and would still today wish they could gets dogs bred like
that mayfield sent them.

We simply disagree. People being "happy" with a man's dogs means nothing. Hell, there are millions of people who are "happy" with pomeranians.

What we're talking about is producing seriously good dogs that truly affect the game. And while Mayfield may have bred some good dogs, his influence was negligible when compared to his peers about whom he speaks (Carver, Tudor, Boudreaux). Mayfield's influence as a breeder was nowhere near these individuals'.

Does that make him wrong? Not necessarily. I am sure there is merit in some of what he says, but I sure wouldn't be hanging on his every word like you seem to.

Jack

[ragedog10]

We simply disagree. People being "happy" with a man's dogs means nothing. Hell, there are millions of people who are "happy" with pomeranians.

What we're talking about is producing seriously good dogs that truly affect the game. And while Mayfield may have bred some good dogs, his influence was negligible when compared to his peers about whom he speaks (Carver, Tudor, Boudreaux). Mayfield's influence as a breeder was nowhere near these individuals'.

Does that make him wrong? Not necessarily. I am sure there is merit in some of what he says, but I sure wouldn't be hanging on his every word like you seem to.

Jack

Amen

[Foxman]

Jack, I liked Mayfield and visited with him many times. He was a very interesting person til around the last four or five years of his life. He would write paragraph after parigraph of material that I had no understanding of what he was trying to say sort of like projectX. Clements called it the Ramblings of Mayfield. I ask Boudreaux years ago. Boudreaux may not remember this about what he thought about Mayfield and some of the things he said. He'd grin and say Mayfield is mayfield. I never did worship Mayfield like he was a God liike some of the dogmen do. Matter of fact I do not believe there are any dogmen without some faults expecially myself. Mayfield was a talented dogman with many faults just like everyone else. Weldon stockton who is a long time trusted friend of mine and also was a good friend of Mayfields. I talk to him on the internet three or four times a week. He read a statement Mayfield wrote that he only fought dogs that belong to himself. Weldon said that is a damn lie. Weldon said Mayfield borrowed several dogs from me and matched them. Of course all dogmen back then knew that. His outstanding ability was in his conditioning only. I see lots of people better than him in other areas. I do not think he was a better conditioner than Floyd. Mayfield was a Bell boy at a Hotel and Floyd told me he put tile in bathrooms and did lots of other professsional stuff. I told him I was a Commercial Plumbing Contractor and he said he also Plumbed. So I put him up quiet a bit above Mayfield in his work and money making abilities. Mayfield as he got older quit the bell boy job and rasied a big commercial vegetable garden and did good at that. He had lots of customers. Like I said he was a good dogman but not a God to be worshipped.

[projectx]

how about your dates are wrong mayb floyd was mistaken or mayb earl lied ever think of that mayb earl bred dibo as a puppy and had billy for a while before he gave him to floyd

Bolero how about this maybe floyd lied how about that scenario or shall we just try to make the dobs and floyds own words count for nothing, there has never been any question to the dobs of dibo or floyd ever saying anything apart from the same thing hes always said that billy was born in 1952 , but if you want to play lets pretend and what if aliens took dibo bred him then put him on ealrs yard bla bla bla, then yes anythings possible , but why when we have a clean and clear timeline you dont want to accept it ? .

[ragedog10]

Let It Go Please !!!!

[Officially Retired]

Jack, I liked Mayfield and visited with him many times. He was a very interesting person til around the last four or five years of his life. He would write paragraph after parigraph of material that I had no understanding of what he was trying to say sort of like projectX. Clements called it the Ramblings of Mayfield. I ask Boudreaux years ago. Boudreaux may not remember this about what he thought about Mayfield and some of the things he said. He'd grin and say Mayfield is mayfield. I never did worship Mayfield like he was a God liike some of the dogmen do. Matter of fact I do not believe there are any dogmen without some faults expecially myself. Mayfield was a talented dogman with many faults just like everyone else. Weldon stockton who is a long time trusted friend of mine and also was a good friend of Mayfields. I talk to him on the internet three or four times a week. He read a statement Mayfield wrote that he only fought dogs that belong to himself. Weldon said that is a damn lie. Weldon said Mayfield borrowed several dogs from me and matched them. Of course all dogmen back then knew that. His outstanding ability was in his conditioning only. I see lots of people better than him in other areas. I do not think he was a better conditioner than Floyd. Mayfield was a Bell boy at a Hotel and Floyd told me he put tile in bathrooms and did lots of other professsional stuff. I told him I was a Commercial Plumbing Contractor and he said he also Plumbed. So I put him up quiet a bit above Mayfield in his work and money making abilities. Mayfield as he got older quit the bell boy job and rasied a big commercial vegetable garden and did good at that. He had lots of customers. Like I said he was a good dogman but not a God to be worshipped.

Well (and fairly) said.

Jack

[projectx]

We simply disagree. People being "happy" with a man's dogs means nothing. Hell, there are millions of people who are "happy" with pomeranians.

What we're talking about is producing seriously good dogs that truly affect the game. And while Mayfield may have bred some good dogs, his influence was negligible when compared to his peers about whom he speaks (Carver, Tudor, Boudreaux). Mayfield's influence as a breeder was nowhere near these individuals'.

Does that make him wrong? Not necessarily. I am sure there is merit in some of what he says, but I sure wouldn't be hanging on his every word like you seem to.

Jack

Jack im surprised that you dont know more about the dogs mayfield dealt to some top dogmen around the usa, but thats fine, but like i said from the south to cannada and if you look inside texas thers more than enough men who kept his line
and were happy to ahve it, as it was the purest of the dibo blood ,and the men who got it knew what they were getting
in dons days.
OK if i was hanging onto every word of dons i would have to hang onto all of them which i dont, as otherwise i would not hesitate to say that there is no doubt that tombstone is out of baby, but i dont as i agree their is every chance it could be
gina, but after weighing up the evidence to hand my gut feeling like yours jack was baby but it could be gina, and you jack
agreed with don that you did feel it was baby so are you not also agreeing as you say i am as it was from my first
post on this thread about tombstone and dons story and audios that you thought that it made sense , so you also are in agreement with mayfield based on the same things i had to work with ,namely the evidence or gut feeling based on the hearsay back story and audio tapes along with a knolwedge of the breeding that did and didnt make sense to do.

On blind billy jack i am in no doubt, and if you and others want to play the (lets make up all the possible scenarios that
might lead to dibo having been bred before earl got him so it makes dibo billys sire)then lets say the same thing about every
breeding ever made before dna was around so we might aswell tear up all the peds from before 1980 and start again.Or we
could do what makes sense, and that is use the brain we have the overall evidence both hearsay (the fact that floyd never
had black dogs before eli came along /other dogmen had seen crybaby nursing the pups/even offered a pup which would have been eli etcetc) then add the dobs in which for more than 50 years in both dbios and billys case no one untill this thread
has ever claimed may be wrong or mistaken and no story of dibo ever being bred before getting to earls yard and even floyds own words as to what year billy was born has never changed , but we want to help floyd by saying maybe he got the dob wrong or maybe dibos dob is wrong , but i can tell you this , and i may myself be wrong but its something i had forgotten and its this, if i buy a dog from you i know i bought it from you so that shouldnt change should it , so why would floyd have told two versions of how he got billy , he has said for sure that he traded earl 3 roosters for billy and then im sure ive seen and definetly heard that floyd also said he got billy from his uncle , but im sure someone will correct me if im wrong, but what im saying is, lets not try to alter what we know at least to be true which is dibos story without trying to add all these scenarios to make it look like dibo is billys sire, then i would say ok make the case ,but it has to be believable the pieces have to fit, not just saying ,well a one year old dog could sire a litter ,or what if heinzl bred him etc etc
without making the pieces fit, all they really are are unrealistic what if scenarios .

To make all or any of the scenarios mentioned in this thread and many others fit better than the actually evidence we already have, it would make the whole thing so over conveluted complex and intricate to such a riddiculous extent
,that it would be easier to find out exactly who killed president kennedy and actually prosecute them than make
the what if dibo scenarios stand up to serious scrutiny, unless of course we decide we want to live in the caos
that is the world of what if scenarios and overlook the obvious, then i agreree anything is possible.

[evolutionkennels]

Jack im surprised that you dont know more about the dogs mayfield dealt to some top dogmen around the usa, but thats fine, but like i said from the south to cannada and if you look inside texas thers more than enough men who kept his line
and were happy to ahve it, as it was the purest of the dibo blood ,and the men who got it knew what they were getting
in dons days.
OK if i was hanging onto every word of dons i would have to hang onto all of them which i dont, as otherwise i would not hesitate to say that there is no doubt that tombstone is out of baby, but i dont as i agree their is every chance it could be
gina, but after weighing up the evidence to hand my gut feeling like yours jack was baby but it could be gina, and you jack
agreed with don that you did feel it was baby so are you not also agreeing as you say i am as it was from my first
post on this thread about tombstone and dons story and audios that you thought that it made sense , so you also are in agreement with mayfield based on the same things i had to work with ,namely the evidence or gut feeling based on the hearsay back story and audio tapes along with a knolwedge of the breeding that did and didnt make sense to do.

On blind billy jack i am in no doubt, and if you and others want to play the (lets make up all the possible scenarios that
might lead to dibo having been bred before earl got him so it makes dibo billys sire)then lets say the same thing about every
breeding ever made before dna was around so we might aswell tear up all the peds from before 1980 and start again.Or we
could do what makes sense, and that is use the brain we have the overall evidence both hearsay (the fact that floyd never
had black dogs before eli came along /other dogmen had seen crybaby nursing the pups/even offered a pup which would have been eli etcetc) then add the dobs in which for more than 50 years in both dbios and billys case no one untill this thread
has ever claimed may be wrong or mistaken and no story of dibo ever being bred before getting to earls yard and even floyds own words as to what year billy was born has never changed , but we want to help floyd by saying maybe he got the dob wrong or maybe dibos dob is wrong , but i can tell you this , and i may myself be wrong but its something i had forgotten and its this, if i buy a dog from you i know i bought it from you so that shouldnt change should it , so why would floyd have told two versions of how he got billy , he has said for sure that he traded earl 3 roosters for billy and then im sure ive seen and definetly heard that floyd also said he got billy from his uncle , but im sure someone will correct me if im wrong, but what im saying is, lets not try to alter what we know at least to be true which is dibos story without trying to add all these scenarios to make it look like dibo is billys sire, then i would say ok make the case ,but it has to be believable the pieces have to fit, not just saying ,well a one year old dog could sire a litter ,or what if heinzl bred him etc etc
without making the pieces fit, all they really are are unrealistic what if scenarios .

To make all or any of the scenarios mentioned in this thread and many others fit better than the actually evidence we already have, it would make the whole thing so over conveluted complex and intricate to such a riddiculous extent
,that it would be easier to find out exactly who killed president kennedy and actually prosecute them than make
the what if dibo scenarios stand up to serious scrutiny, unless of course we decide we want to live in the caos
that is the world of what if scenarios and overlook the obvious, then i agreree anything is possible.

The sheep Clarise... Tell me about the sheep.

http://tancast.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg

[ragedog10]

Lmao !!!!

[projectx]

The sheep Clarise... Tell me about the sheep.

http://tancast.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg

Evo i could care less if you and the rest of the folks on here think im retarded , but first thing is i think that its disgracefull that you find handicapped children funny and would post that foto even if its to poke fun at me, your just like that school yard bully who thinks hes the bees knees , but im sure anyone on here who may have a child like that would find that offensive and you and the others who think its funny should be ashamed of yourselves , i hope you never have one of your own then see how funny it is and maybe the fact that you posted that foto makes you a little more like the person your trying to paint me as evo . But secondly for you
and the others who might find that funny ,rather than try to make fun of me, why dont you smart alecks try tell me how you get a square peg into the round hole that is floyds story
and the facts regarding blind billy, this is after all is a thread about dogs with disputed pedigrees , or are you so
lacking in any ideas that you take the easy and curs way out evo but then i shouldnt be surpirsed about that i suppose coming from a man or men who would find that foto funny regardless of who its designed to riddicule , and what i would find far more eassy to riddicule is a person or persons who are entitled to their views just as i am , but when faced with facts that they cant dsipute with anymore substantial facts themselves to prove otherwise, would deem to riddicule that person rather than show thier own iron clad theory
that would indeed support that riddicule ,but of ocourse what we get is the bottom of the garbage in a person that can find it funny to post such a foto , maybe its more a true reflection of themselves .

[Officially Retired]

Jack im surprised that you dont know more about the dogs mayfield dealt to some top dogmen around the usa, but thats fine, but like i said from the south to cannada and if you look inside texas thers more than enough men who kept his line

Projectx, I realize you are a Mayfield disciple ... and that you probably wear Mayfield t-shirts and say your prayers to Mayfield at night ... but please don't start talking to me as if "you" are now Mayfield ... because it really can't get much more embarrassing for you at this point :lol:

:rolleyes:

Jack

[Officially Retired]

The sheep Clarise... Tell me about the sheep.
http://tancast.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg

LMAO, it really has gotten to this point ...

[BKNGAME]

The sheep Clarise... Tell me about the sheep.

http://tancast.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/arguing_on_the_internet.jpg

All this Bk & forth abt dead and gone dogmen when there are 21st Century breeders & dogmen who are altering peds or explaining to u (after purchase) why your peds aren't the same as what's posted on their sites!!! They'll even pretend tht you're the idiot because u didn't know tht "XYZ" didn't hv papers on him in 1983. I had lost over 30+ dogs due to motorcycle accident in 2006 which left me in a wheelchair for over 14 months then rehab, life, etc took another few years before I ws once again able to own this magnificent, highly controversial breed. Since then I've spent a small fortune putting together another yard with completely different strains than before. I researched journals as to who ws doing what and made my decisions on only to find out tht these new acquaintances think completely different. A great friend of mine told me that a good bulldog is where u find him. Firstly know tht u can trust the breeder---registry refused to correct papers on dog due to handwritten peds from Hollingsworth himself tht he obtained personally. 2nd thing I've noticed is that these pit forum site glorify the moderators or creators of site. If u search the respected Vise-Grip kennels on Game-Dog.com there's comments tht Jack's dogs are only good for house pets!! I found this post researching the bulldogs involved in my purchases. I personally hv spent my hard earned money on 2 dogs that contain Jack's breeding (an older dbl "PONCHO" gyp & dam of male pup) & I completely disagree with tht thought until shown differently. These Internet sites do assist in finding certain strains, but if their peds are real or not is a question not only posed from the old schoolers but current bulldog inventory as well. I'm still waiting on papers for 2dogs from a well known breeder who previously had my papers in hand on prior dealings.... will these 2peds be fake?! Best advice any man can hv is keep your own records true & put the dogs 1st. Times hv definitely changed & people are less trustworthy everyday due to economic factors, yard space, & life in general. So beating up on Mayfield, Tudor, Maloney, Patrick should serve as an insight vs a debate ovr which crook u trust the most. THERE ARE NO TRUE PEDIGREES.... :lotsagreen:
I used CA Jack as an example of how people will say anything & I purposely DID NOT mention 21st century breeders/dogmen as to not discredit the work they've done after the illegitimacy of certain dogs in current pedigrees. I only hope to hv the same or better success in retrospect to the Hounds I lost in 2006.

[evolutionkennels]

Evo i could care less if you and the rest of the folks on here think im retarded , but first thing is i think that its disgracefull that you find handicapped children funny and would post that foto even if its to poke fun at me, your just like that school yard bully who thinks hes the bees knees , but im sure anyone on here who may have a child like that would find that offensive and you and the others who think its funny should be ashamed of yourselves , i hope you never have one of your own then see how funny it is and maybe the fact that you posted that foto makes you a little more like the person your trying to paint me as evo . But secondly for you
and the others who might find that funny ,rather than try to make fun of me, why dont you smart alecks try tell me how you get a square peg into the round hole that is floyds story
and the facts regarding blind billy, this is after all is a thread about dogs with disputed pedigrees , or are you so
lacking in any ideas that you take the easy and curs way out evo but then i shouldnt be surpirsed about that i suppose coming from a man or men who would find that foto funny regardless of who its designed to riddicule , and what i would find far more eassy to riddicule is a person or persons who are entitled to their views just as i am , but when faced with facts that they cant dsipute with anymore substantial facts themselves to prove otherwise, would deem to riddicule that person rather than show thier own iron clad theory
that would indeed support that riddicule ,but of ocourse what we get is the bottom of the garbage in a person that can find it funny to post such a foto , maybe its more a true reflection of themselves .

I never said you won the argument! But if the shoe fits...... WEAR IT. The picture implies that arguing about something as you have for as long as you have is as effective as Muhammad Ali applying for Barber school licence suffering from Parkinsons, NOT VERY REALISTIC. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I've listened to some of the Mayfield you tube videos, and if you ask me, the kid in the picture probably sounds more intelligent. Now, that being said, I vehemently apologize if I offended anyone by using that picture. Yes, I have a sense of humor, yes, it pushes the envelope, but I wonder if you read the fine print. This board is tired of your rants. You lost the argument the minute that you took what Mayfield said as FACT, it's not , IT'S HIS OPINION, and I guarantee he put his pants on in the Am just like YOU DO.

[projectx]

Projectx, I realize you are a Mayfield disciple ... and that you probably wear Mayfield t-shirts and say your prayers to Mayfield at night ... but please don't start talking to me as if "you" are now Mayfield ... because it really can't get much more embarrassing for you at this point :lol:

:rolleyes:
Jack

.
Jack[/QUOTE]

Jack im a mayfield fan yes , but if you are also sinking to having to try to sheep dip me rather than if you are intersted of course in the thread, to maybe give me a more real world scenario that disputes the blind billy one that is not mine but floyds
own words, but so far it seems like the only disciples around here wear floyd t shirts along with huge rose coloured glasses
and believe me jack unlike many who think there so damn good i would never claim to be on mayfields level but no one on this thread is either , and what i find embarasing is a men on here who call themselves knowledgeable but put up embarasing scenarios to cover up for what is the truth ,that jack is truly embarasing, and for you to also think its funny to put up fotos of downs syndrome kid to poke fun at me, surprises me jack , we may not agree on much but i never thought you were a person that would allow a foto like that to be posted, not becasue of me but for anyone who may have a child like that and think that you guys find it funny regardless of if its to poke fun at me or anyone else , thats not nice jack
and your obvious taking of sides against me becasue of our locking horns once before is showing itself by the way you always pull me up about anything i say, but tell randy what a fair post he made,or say nothing when others insult me and worse, when randys words were an outright putdown of mayfield and quotes from others which adde no new evidence or theorys to any of the dogs so far mentioned, and he just posts as a direct way to stick the knife in again on mayfield ,and that is starting to look a little one sided jack and referee
seems to be in on it.

SO jack if randys sticking the knife into mayfield on every post he makes is fair, of course he always starts by saying WELL I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNT MAYFIELD , then goes on to character asasinate him but thats fair in your view sorry very fair, wow, well hows this for fair, two can play that game, as in my posts regardless of who agrees with it or not, i have made my posts based on evidence not just the man , but now lets play randys way shall we. A good dogman in arizona once told me that anything floyd told him he wouldnt believe , now hows that for fair jack , we can all say stuff out of context, that is just for a personal agenda, but neither randy or anyone else has offered a reasonalbe theory because their isn't one realistic expalntion with a shread of proof to contradict the facts with any certianty, but you and others feel in your rights to riddicule me yet with no reason other than having it in for me and maybe just like lots of untruths when we start to reveal them, maybe
knowing that once we start down the rabbit hole of truth , the fear of how deep will it take us is not something all men can face , it takes a little more courage than normal
to go that deep jack, but in the end its always worth it if one has a value for the truth.


Jack[/QUOTE]

[projectx]

I never said you won the argument! But if the shoe fits...... WEAR IT. The picture implies that arguing about something as you have for as long as you have is as effective as Muhammad Ali applying for Barber school licence suffering from Parkinsons, NOT VERY REALISTIC. IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I've listened to some of the Mayfield you tube videos, and if you ask me, the kid in the picture probably sounds more intelligent. Now, that being said, I vehemently apologize if I offended anyone by using that picture. Yes, I have a sense of humor, yes, it pushes the envelope, but I wonder if you read the fine print. This board is tired of your rants. You lost the argument the minute that you took what Mayfield said as FACT, it's not , IT'S HIS OPINION, and I guarantee he put his pants on in the Am just like YOU DO.

EVo first off im asking you a direct question based on floyds words not mayfields and the evidence we have for the blind billy and eli story do you as an inteligent man really beleive billy was sired by dibo ,and if so please give a better explanation to counter the facts we do have and not make believe scenarios .

Secondly you may think mayfield is retarded by that comment you made, but that again is just insulting a man who wasnt so retared that he put toggether enough stuff with the foresight to know thier would always be doubters to what he may say , and the audios certainly prove he was no retard.

THirdly you say im ranting but if you attack i defend , but others who protest just as vehmently that they dont believe it, are also ranting ,but with no evidence other than not wanting to believe the floyd the legend might actually have lied and stolen a litter frommayfield which he made a huge part of his and clemmons name from ,but you find that ok do you ?
I never asked for an argument, the thread is therre for people to talk about famous dogs who have had some doubt placed to their true breeding, and apart from a few people everyone else has either attacked me for putting my view forward onl billy, which i have my opinions on as others have theirs, but no dog talked about other than blind billy has had such a propoderance of the evidence pointing to a realistic truth other than blind billy, but even seemingly inteligent men who
should know better either started to make up fantastic scenarios to make it not so or just attack me by doing the old make
enough noise so that you distract others from the reality , which i have never done , i have argued on all dogs either for or against depending on the overall evidence we had including hearsay and circumtnatial as in tombstones case, but eventhough i dont believe gina was tombstones dam and neither did jack, i cant say she wasnt, and neither could mayfield, but on billy evo
if someone wants to prove the facts that we do have wrong then i will be the first to say ok , because im not bothered
as long as we get the truth if we can,and you wont find me crying that mayfield was wrong ,but so far on billy not one person has shown any proof to counter the proof we do have, so why are you all willing to attack me and mayfield when you have no good reason other than fear of the rabbit hole and how deep it goes.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I can understand why, because it sets a precedence of the person being a liar.

I taped 3 conversations of me and Pat Patrick, a long time ago when I was a beginner, when he and I were on the verge of falling out. I was a green nobody then, and he had personally told me of the "true breeding" of so many dogs, that I felt this needed to be documented. So I do "get" why Mayfield would want to preserve on tape "the true breedings" behind some famous dogs. (Same as Bobby Smith got Pat Patrick to admit Ch Blaze was really off of Reuben.) I personally never made my tapes public ... but I may too someday when I am old, angry, and bored ... same as I did when I published Smith's tape when I The Truth about Mason's Ch Hammer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/content.php?201) :lol:

This doesn't necessarily make a person a snitch; it might be the only way for the truth to get out. I could likewise publish the tapes with Patrick admitting how Buck, Cheryl Tiegs, and Ch Chewy are really bred, but since I don't run dogs down from these lines (like I do Ch Hammer), I have never bothered.

Jack

PS: Ultimately, I agree it doesn't matter anymore, but it does make for interesting historical footnotes for discussion.

I see all of that. Makes sense. I sincerely apologize to......well, nah, I'll just take this good perspective and admit, I can totally see this.

You guys have a great New Year

[Foxman]

ProjectX You enter this man's web and twist and turn everything you can to make someone think you have stumbled onto the pot of Gold. It is a good thing that this isn't my web because your words along with the whole topic would vanish into the air without a stain left on this board. Your thoughts are not showing facts about anything. You rant on and on like your needle is stuck on an old 45-RPM record. You are like a child that was just dropped into a mans world with no idea of the past or present. How does your kind of people stumble into a real dog man's world. I am not assassinating Mayfield I am simply stating the facts. If I have an opinion about anything that deviates from your dream. You think I am a bad crazy know nothing person and so is anyone else that has a thought. I'm not sure if you can have any open thoughts a day. You think it, you type it, You believe it, so it is so. Like I said your one Lucky man this isn't my web. I might have told a thing or two that wasn't part of the debate about Mayfield. It wasn't to hurt Mayfield it was to show you he was a man and not a perfect man and he was far down the morale charcter chain for someone who should be worshipped. What we did was break laws for our entertainment at the dogs expense in those days. That doesn't make any of us a Saint. I always ask God to forgive me for what I was fixing to do when I fought a dog. Because I wasn't sure he liked me doing that. I have ask God many times to forgive me for what I done since then. Randy Fox.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Nqk i completly agree that mayfield never had their consent, im sure they wouldnt have said the things they did had they known he was recording them , which actually makes the tapes that much more interesting and important, and he probably was paranoid , with good reason, but to call him a snitch , there you go again NQK full accusations with no proof as usuall you must like calling folks lairs but not even a theory on any of the dogs so far, just here to throw shit and hate on me and mayfield , well at least try to put up a theory if dont believe a man like i have done with floyd , at least it isnt just becasue i hate him , i dont but i dont believe him on blind billy, but at least i try to explain why ,what do you do on this thread NQK apart from insult me and look for fight that you cant win , maybe actually making a post about the dogs might be an idea to get you started with .

Here you go ProjectX - You ready? Sincere, all the way. Since I don't know for a fact that you lied, I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart apologize for calling you a liar. To break it down even further and to make sure you all understand - I APOLOGIZE FOR CALLING YOU A LIAR! Sincere and all.

Now I would expect a "MAN" to apologize back at me for calling me all those tasteless things you called me now. Making accusations against my manhood???? That hurts and being a "real man" of honesty and integrity, I expect a full apology from you now.

Now, my contribution to what agitates you so much. 1st - For any man to have 400 recorded conversations with anyone, for any reason turns me away from that person instantly. Seriously. What is driving or burning this guy up inside so bad to motivate him to spend (in my opinion waste) this much time just to be able to say "AH HA - GOTCHA". Seriously. Nothing but this thread has come from Mayfield and his recordings. Nothing fruitful in any sense of the meaning. 2nd - You say calling him a snitch is doing so "with no proof". This is exactly what you are doing. You are calling people liars, which you don't like to be called, with no proof. Recordings of people saying things doesn't make anyone a liar, unless, you can prove who's on the tapes. If you can't do that, then you sir, "have no proof". So I'm merely doing the same thing you are doing. To take it a step further, to show you how nice and willing I am to work with you, I actually DO BELIEVE that it's Mayfield on your tapes, but still, me believing, you believing and everyone on this planet believing anything, does not PROVE anything to be a fact. So you are stirring a pot, as interesting as it might could be, with NO PROOF.

So, my contribution to your topic is not about the dogs as I have stated and will continue to do so, I couldn't care less about the breeding of the dogs you mention. It won't do me, my dogs, or anyone else any good to change the pedigree of the dogs you brought here. Even if you are right and the ADBA changes the pedigree - what was gained? Nothing. Nothing of substance anyways. No one is going to go out, put their entire yard down and start over are they? No one is going to build a memorial to Don Mayfield and proclaim him the most honest of all dogmen that ever lived or give him credit for anything other than what he's already done. He's dead as is this conspiracy theory stuff guys keep digging up.

I believe this a wasted endeavor - this straightening out of pedigrees based on NO PROVABLE FACTS! That is my contribution and since I apologized, I'll look for your apology since you set the bar so high and the standard for integrity.

Take care, hope you find what you seek and may the Good Lord bless you and yours in 2014

[projectx]

You enter this man's web and twist and turn everything you can to make someone think you have stumbled onto the pot of Gold. It is a good thing that this isn't my web because your words along with the whole topic would vanish into the air without a stain left on this board. Your thoughts are not showing facts about anything. You rant on and on like your needle is stuck on an old 45-RPM record. You are like a child that was just dropped into a mans world with no idea of the past or present. How does your kind of people stumble into a real dog man's world. I am not assassinating Mayfield I am simply stating the facts. If I have an opinion about anything that deviates from your dream. You think I am a bad crazy know nothing person and so is anyone else that has a thought. I'm not sure if you can have any open thoughts a day. You think it, you type it, You believe it, so it is so. Like I said your one Lucky man this isn't my web/ Randy Fox.

Randy you are a hoot , its hard to get angry at you that but for you to say that i am coming on here twistng words from you is like the pot calling the kettle black.I put the views that are out there regarding some dogs, of which we have all had our say, and we have even agrred to disagree on gina v baby, and i agrreed it could be either i wouldnt swear to it, but then we get to blind billy, and boom your head explodes because you or anyone else can make the hat fit can you, and you are
now trying to turn the tables on me to somehow try to make this whole thing go away just incase someone actually works it out and realises that mayfield yes mayfield was correct along with more than a few dogmen from your time randy who didnt buy it for a new york minute .Now im damn sure in your in website no one would get to say anything that didnt pass the randy fox seal of approval, especially any truth you dont like to hear, you would love ot silence me and others like me yet you proclaim that all you say when you post is a FACT wow randy how arrogant you are , and what facts did you say in your last few posts that had anything to do with the thread or any dogs disputed pedigree ? none you use your posts to rant about me telling the truth about billy and trying to make it seem like a crime , yet you have no proof to
contradict all the known evidence we have and floyds own words and timeline so im not saying anything that isnt known and out there so you might fool some people randy ,but its obvious to me that your not able to face the inevitable truth about blind billy and then eli which would mean your matrix would crumble under it .

I dont care if you dont agrree or anyone else, but dont accuse me of being a child, im the one putting forward the facts what are you doing but trying to put out a smokescreen but that gets blown away randy its built on nothing so gives nothing back of value , so when you stop your ranting and accuseing me of only wanting to have you or anyone else agree with me, thats not true, on all the other dogs, tombstone being a good example i have openly said that although i believe baby was the dam and you beleive gina was the dam i have accepted that it could be true either way , so i think that blows your talk about me only wanting everyone to agree with me out of the water.

But in blind billys case randy all i am doing is replying to all the posts directed at me but not one of you has given a realsitic theory based on more evidence (other than what if scenarios ), than we already have on both dibo and billy including floyds own words for more than 50 years , but that for some reason you want pretend doesnt exist and create a new story.

Your like the warren commision who wanted everyone to beleive in the lone gunman theory and the magic bullet when all the evidence that they hadnt destroyed pointed everywhere else but the lone gunman and the magic bullet theory.

Randy its always nice to know your so worried about me and the facts that you ar practically begging jack to ban me so you can rest easy , and that randy is the sign of a man who knows more than he wants to admit to , and a man who doesnt like a fair fight , but im right here randy make the evidence go away trump it with more than maybes and what ifs .there is more clear facts on billy than we have on any disputed dog in the game but you dont want to play ball , well i not here to convince myself, and if the horses dont want to be led to water well then they dont drink so i guess they stay thirsty.

By the way i see through your slick style you have of barbded comments towards mayfield in every post you make when you mention his name not just here but on every forum you are on, you use the old sheep dip trick of not saying outright nasty comments but constant negative things like how cold he was and how warm hearted you are to your dogs, but you dont say negative things about floyd or your friends do you then you use floyds commnet about his reply to don saying something about him Oh WELL THATS JUST DON trying to again create an image of don in a negative way just like you comment on thinking more highly of floyds as he was on a higher economic level than mayfield ,again all comments that had nothing to do with any dog story but were made solely to create a negative image of don trying show him in a bad light and floyd seem like a saint to push the eyes of people away from the only facts as you call them that we have which are the ones that show the truth
in this case randy , becasue if you had any proof other than your desire to make it true, by god you would have produced it in a heartbeat if anything that could prove mayfield wrong and floyd right , but i ask everyone to take note of how randy has never been able to post anything to do with billy that can disprove the fatcs we do have and that in every post where he mentions mayfield he always (after his clever intial i liked don comment) goes on to say things that have nothing to do with the dogs were talking about, but makes a personal sniping and barbed comments designed to assisinate dons character to make anything don may have said less believable even when its true , all i ask anyone to do is look at the facts we have and without making up what if scenarios , be honest either on here or to yourselves and understand what the truth is here and i think it wil be hard to come to any other conclusion based on the evidence and facts we have, that blind billy is not out of dibo and eli can then also be put in doubt and the high probabilty is that eli was indeed out of crybaby x cotton , and i am happy to leave it there guys, and as long as none of you comes back just attacking me for the sake of it i will not reply to avoid being called a ranter , but if you attack me and just make it personal rather than about trying to find out as best as we can how some famous dogs are bred ,then i will reply so please dont accuse me of ranting if i do , your post will be the reason i reply or not just remmeber that ok thank you.

[projectx]

Here you go ProjectX - You ready? Sincere, all the way. Since I don't know for a fact that you lied, I sincerely, from the bottom of my heart apologize for calling you a liar. To break it down even further and to make sure you all understand - I APOLOGIZE FOR CALLING YOU A LIAR! Sincere and all.

Now I would expect a "MAN" to apologize back at me for calling me all those tasteless things you called me now. Making accusations against my manhood???? That hurts and being a "real man" of honesty and integrity, I expect a full apology from you now.

Now, my contribution to what agitates you so much. 1st - For any man to have 400 recorded conversations with anyone, for any reason turns me away from that person instantly. Seriously. What is driving or burning this guy up inside so bad to motivate him to spend (in my opinion waste) this much time just to be able to say "AH HA - GOTCHA". Seriously. Nothing but this thread has come from Mayfield and his recordings. Nothing fruitful in any sense of the meaning. 2nd - You say calling him a snitch is doing so "with no proof". This is exactly what you are doing. You are calling people liars, which you don't like to be called, with no proof. Recordings of people saying things doesn't make anyone a liar, unless, you can prove who's on the tapes. If you can't do that, then you sir, "have no proof". So I'm merely doing the same thing you are doing. To take it a step further, to show you how nice and willing I am to work with you, I actually DO BELIEVE that it's Mayfield on your tapes, but still, me believing, you believing and everyone on this planet believing anything, does not PROVE anything to be a fact. So you are stirring a pot, as interesting as it might could be, with NO PROOF.

So, my contribution to your topic is not about the dogs as I have stated and will continue to do so, I couldn't care less about the breeding of the dogs you mention. It won't do me, my dogs, or anyone else any good to change the pedigree of the dogs you brought here. Even if you are right and the ADBA changes the pedigree - what was gained? Nothing. Nothing of substance anyways. No one is going to go out, put their entire yard down and start over are they? No one is going to build a memorial to Don Mayfield and proclaim him the most honest of all dogmen that ever lived or give him credit for anything other than what he's already done. He's dead as is this conspiracy theory stuff guys keep digging up.

I believe this a wasted endeavor - this straightening out of pedigrees based on NO PROVABLE FACTS! That is my contribution and since I apologized, I'll look for your apology since you set the bar so high and the standard for integrity.

Take care, hope you find what you seek and may the Good Lord bless you and yours in 2014

NQK thank you for your appology albiet long overdue and looking at your post hardly well meant as you continue to try and make me out to be like you , when the difference is that you called me a lair saying i didnt have any tapes, which i infact did , so you called me a lair based on nothiog but your dislike of me based on our pms about things you didnt like hearing but you did ask me why i said it so i told you, and then you got all defensive and ever since its lets try to attack projectx
which resulted in you calling me a liar and then having to appolgise, when maybe it would have been better to just pm me and i could have called you and played you some of the audios over the phone , hell i might even have mad a copy for you .

Now i have not called anyone a liar like you called me, i have said in my view based on the evidence that we do have on blind billy that i believe floyd is lying but based on the facts we have and floyds own timeline and story, you had neither of those things when you called me a lair about the audios so its not quite the same thing at all, as i was infact able to prove i wasn't lying , but so far no one has been able to prove floyd wasnt.

Which now conviently you and everyone else dont want to see it as facts, eventhough the dobs and floyds own words havent changed in 50 plus years ,and based on those facts i have said that i dont beleive floyd and i do infact think he is lying, but i have done so not blindly like you did to me, that indeed would be very stupid wouldnt it, no i have questioned floyds version based on abda pedigrees floyds own story of the year he got billy and the very well, known and docunmented never questioned story of dibo and his life, which when you actually do a little research puts more than enough doubt on floyds version , but that is very different to you or me just blindly out of nothing more than hate or anger
calling a man a liar based on zero evidence of any kind.

Now mayfield made those tapes precisley for the reasons jack explained in him recodring pat patrick , to make sure he
could infact keep a record of the conversations so he could indeed have it on record if as an example when talking to maloney
he was trying to get the true breeding of tombstone from maloney or when hes talking to carver about pit general and indian sonnys involvement in that it was being able to understsand who was who and what was bullshit and what wasnt, mayfield said that the match with other dogmen wasnt only in the pit, he said that you can here the match in the audios as there is a lot that people say
that they say to tell you what they want you to hear and theres also lots of truth, and mayfield knew that, but i never said any of the audios were a fact , i said that it helps to hear them and then using all the pieces of the puzzle we are trying to fit toggehter ,we make our chice as to what we believe, and infact mayfield didnt breed to tombstone and sold him becasue he could never be 100% sure he was out of baby,although he felt sure he was , so i never have said that me you or anyone should take those audios as a fact, but more as a very intersting piece of gameodg history which if my few are anytihng to go by god only knows what other great stuff is on the rest of them, and im sure NQK even you who says he has no interest in long gone dogs , which is a shame as i think the more true pedigrees we have the better, but thats you and thats me, plus of course being a fair man as you claim to be i am sure if mayfield was infact elis breder you would not deny him that right would you NQK im sure you wouldnt like that if that happened to you, and im also sure that if you had access to those audios and were able to hear earl tudor talking that would interest you as it should ,and the man we need to thank for that is don mayfield he collected a libary of audios and documents that he said evrytime the indian sonny was at his place he always wanted to get into dons old wooden trunks full of pedigrees but never did lol , its a shame don is being treated like a nobody who has to compete with dog peddlers for some respect, when he deserves so much more from the game he certainly doesnt deserve that.

Nqk one last thing you say that this whole thing is a pointless endeavour , which in many cases is correct, do you beleive your pedigrees that you got from the adba ? (yes)then why doubt the dob on dibo which is not and has never been in question, billy was born in 1952 dibo born march 1951 and unless anyone can prove otherwise dibo didnt get to earls untill at least late 1953 or 1954 and theres never been any record of dibo being bred before that earls , so going by the things we can prove from dobs and arguably thestory of the most famous dog of the modern era in dibo are you saying that the proof is not there ,for in that case neither are yours mine or anyone elses if we want to call the dobs into question then why not everyones .

Now nqk i will galdly appolgise to you if you feel i need to, but first i think that i still need an appology without the follow on comments that is not an appolgy so when you send me that i will as a man of my word give you the same and equal courtesy ok .





N

[Officially Retired]

.
Jack im a mayfield fan yes , but if you are also sinking to having to try to sheep dip me rather than if you are intersted of course in the thread, to maybe give me a more real world scenario that disputes the blind billy one that is not mine but floyds
own words, but so far it seems like the only disciples around here wear floyd t shirts along with huge rose coloured glasses


Without being disrespectful, I don't care one wit about Floyd Boudreaux either.
Never wanted that line of dogs, though I am well aware of their accomplishments.

I laugh in your face if you believe I wear rose-colored glasses about him or any other dogman.




.
and believe me jack unlike many who think there so damn good i would never claim to be on mayfields level but no one on this thread is either , and what i find embarasing is a men on here who call themselves knowledgeable but put up embarasing scenarios to cover up for what is the truth ,that jack is truly embarasing,

Mayfield's level? WTF does that mean?

You can put Mayfield on some super-high level "above you" (on some heoric pedestal) if you'd like, but I certainly don't put him above myself, on ANY level, save maybe as a knowledgeable conditioner of dogs for his day.
On every other subject that pertains to dogs, from medical knowledge, to knowledge of diseases and nutritional information, to the knowledge of how to successfully breed one's own family of dogs, I am FAR more knowledgeable than Mayfield ever dreamed to be.

I do have a modicum of respect for the man as a conditioner, as well as for being around (and a part of) the foundational history for our breed ... but most of what he did is now considered outdated ... and there are too many levels where I would not want to be "like him" in any way, shape, or form.




.
and for you to also think its funny to put up fotos of downs syndrome kid to poke fun at me, surprises me jack , we may not agree on much but i never thought you were a person that would allow a foto like that to be posted, not becasue of me but for anyone who may have a child like that and think that you guys find it funny regardless of if its to poke fun at me or anyone else , thats not nice jack


First of all, I never claimed to be nice. I try to run a class operation here ... and I will not allow porn or vile nasty stuff to be posted here. I try to allow freedom of speech, so long as it isn't vile or abusive, and I think harmless posts like what Evo put are just that ... harmless fun. And, quite frankly, I agree with his gist: namely that you are the textbook definition of someone who lacks the sense as to when to shut up and just drop a subject. On EVERY thread where you've posted, you have ultimately turned it into an insane, never-ending digression of repetitive stupidity where you have basically had to be told to SHUT UP before you finally do.




.
and your obvious taking of sides against me becasue of our locking horns once before is showing itself by the way you always pull me up about anything i say, but tell randy what a fair post he made,or say nothing when others insult me and worse, when randys words were an outright putdown of mayfield and quotes from others which adde no new evidence or theorys to any of the dogs so far mentioned, and he just posts as a direct way to stick the knife in again on mayfield ,and that is starting to look a little one sided jack and referee
seems to be in on it.

I actually joined in on this thread in a positive way, trying to bury the hatchet with you, trying to let bygones be bygones, and I participated constructively on the first page or so.
(Go back and re-read the first page, genius.)

However, EVERYONE HERE has gotten sick of you droning on-and-on-and-on-and-on about Don Mayfield's theories. Every one.

You don't seem to have the sense to understand anything around you.
You don't seem to have the sense to let well enough alone and move on.
Time and time again, you digress into a never-ending diatribe of mindless stupidity.
Tine and time again, you have to be forced to shut up.




.
SO jack if randys sticking the knife into mayfield on every post he makes is fair, of course he always starts by saying WELL I HAVE NOTHING AGAISNT MAYFIELD , then goes on to character asasinate him but thats fair in your view sorry very fair, wow, well hows this for fair, two can play that game, as in my posts regardless of who agrees with it or not, i have made my posts based on evidence not just the man , but now lets play randys way shall we.

Randy is allowed to say what he wants, to an extent, as you are allowed to say what you want, to an extent.

Randy's opinion is more valuable than yours because he lived through these times ... whereas you are just a guy parroting "what you heard" on a video :idea:

This doesn't mean I believe everything Randy says, and it doesn't mean that I don't, but I *do* find his statements more interesting, compelling, and closer to what OTHER old-timers I personally know (who lived through this era also) have always said about Mayfield.

With all due respect, you are just a parrot here by comparison, repeating things with ZERO actual knowledge or experience of what you repeat.




.
A good dogman in arizona once told me that anything floyd told him he wouldnt believe , now hows that for fair jack , we can all say stuff out of context, that is just for a personal agenda, but neither randy or anyone else has offered a reasonalbe theory because their isn't one realistic expalntion with a shread of proof to contradict the facts with any certianty, but you and others feel in your rights to riddicule me yet with no reason other than having it in for me and maybe just like lots of untruths when we start to reveal them, maybe

Like I said, I could care less about Floyd Boudreaux also, and I have heard it said the only time Floyd lies is when he opens his mouth ... so what?
Heard the same thing about Carver too. Heard Tudor was a wife-beater, liar, and a cheat. Again, so what?

They were just DOGmen, not saints. Not people to emulate.

I would listen intently to what Carver had to say about breeding dogs ... or which dogs HE had that were his favorites ... and WHY ... and it would be of great historical interest to me.
I would do the same thing to what Tudor had to say about his breedings ... or which dogs were HIS favorites ... and WHY ... and it would likewise be of great historical interest to me.
Same with Mayfield.

But I would take NONE of these men's advice on what to feed, what to do medically ... and I don't need anyone's advice on how to breed my own dogs ... and I sure as shit wouldn't trust ANY of these men to be alone with my woman or to keep and feed a super-valuable dog of mine on their yards. Wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them.




.
knowing that once we start down the rabbit hole of truth , the fear of how deep will it take us is not something all men can face , it takes a little more courage than normal
to go that deep jack, but in the end its always worth it if one has a value for the truth.

Oh please spare me this overly-dramatic greenhorn bullshit :rolleyes:

Other than peripheral historical interest, I don't give a damn about Blind Billy and his breeding, Floyd's dogs, nor Mayfield's. Has nothing to do with me, my goals, my bloodline, nor anything I can in any way control ... nor would it affect me in any way if I were still breeding my own dogs.

If Don Mayfield were to come here and start debating Floyd, that would be interesting.
Randy Fox coming here to give his $0.02 about the situation is interesting.

But "you" (a guy who has nothing to do with anything) repeating yourself and going on--and-on-and-f***ing-on about this shit is nauseating.

Jack

[CYJ]

Here we go again, here is another monkey wrench in the spokes so to speak of. I am fixing to really throw down some good ole hear say. There have been several articles written on the famed Henry dogs that Tudor used. Not all came black, some came snow white and sure other colors. Probably the earliest articles just speaking of his dogs are the most correct.

One of the articles on Jack Kelley's site had that same type article asking the question. Why all the black dogs Boudreaux suddenly came up with. For as I am concerned only he knows, I certainly do not know and as of today no longer care.

The story centers around AKA Dirty Harry and Scotty Nelson. Seems Scotty Nelson was told by (I do not know who). That Earl Tudor bought dogs from England from I assume the same source that the Henry dogs came from. ( Note I am Assuming a lot here). LOL

That Tudor had some of these dogs on into the mid 50's. That he kept two sets of record keeping and registered all those crosses under the Dibo line of dogs. That most of these Dogs came black or black brindle with even black gums. Were said to be very rough hard biting dogs, but in some cases liking deep gaminess. What was referred to as those crazy, hot to fight, red eyed black Henry dogs.

Now if that is some of the Truth about Mr. Tudor's dogs and I myself am not saying it is. Mayfield trying to claim he has the purest Blue Blooded Henry dogs is still a moot point. Being Tudor supposedly kept two sets of dog registries. Who if any, really got the most of the Henry breeding in their Tudor dogs. If this be true only Tudor knows who got what.

Now on the other hand, knowing how most of the older family's of USA dogs are bred. I say if you want a Truer bred Tudor Old Family bred dog/with the most known Henry breeding in it. According to much more accurate pedigrees that the UKC has.

You will find the last old family Tudor/Henry dogs is in Peggy Harper's AM Staff dogs that lived not far down the road from Mr. Maurice Carver. I was sitting at the serving table in the Bowman restaurant with Mr. Teal/Mr. E. Skinner eating breakfast, many years ago. Something came up about Carver and his dogs. That is when I heard that if Mrs. Harper got one of those staffs that would not refuse to fight any dog it saw. Became uncontrollable.

She called Mr. Carver, and he came and picked the dog up. The Staff was checked out and if showed deep gaminess etc. Was bred in his stock of dogs. Now once again (hear say) and if done no one knows how many times.

I have talked before about Mr. Ralph Dailey's last dogs, who lived in Sumter S.C. From the talk about staff x pits being crossed from Mr. Teal and Egan. A. Howle and self visited this older dog breeder in Sumter S.C.. To find he had some straight Tacoma/Doyle Staff dogs and some Tacoma/Doyle x Charles Medlin crossed dogs. We got a dog and bitch off the Tacoma/Doyle x Medlin cross.

These dogs were black and white and turned out to be very good dogs. We both being rank rookies and thinking we could go back to that well and get more like them. Matched the male and he took his death while giving out a lot of punishment and receiving it. Never made a bad move proving to be dead game. The bitch lost her life in a five minute freak roll accident on my Ginger bitch off Snake x Tina cross. Died in a matter of seconds without a whimper. When we lost her was both very upset.

We borrowed money from the bank and went back to get some more dogs from Mr. Dailey. That well had run dry as he had died. His wife gave away or had the remaining dogs put down. Took years of dog papers and all the UKC Blood line journals he had and much more to the dump. Offered us no useable info., told us to leave and never come back.

One of MR. Dailey's straight bred Staff bitch dogs that was popular in the Camden S.C. area. Was a bitch dog called Foots. She had won at least two or three matches and was a very good dog. Very strong well built light brindle bitch with white stocking feet. Hench the name Foots.

Foots was bred to the famed Kelly's Willie dog and to McNeil's (Young's) Chuck dog. I saw Foots and her pups off Chuck on McNeil's yard. Went back later in hopes of buying a couple of the pups. Foots and the pups were gone and McNeil did not want to say who had them. I suspected their had been some paper changing to cover up the Staff breeding.

Was one Bitch off the Willie x Foots breeding that a Black man owned. He kept this bitch in ready to go off the chain condition. Beat and killed a lot of dogs brought there just to whip her.

So it appears that maybe Tudor and Carver along with some local dog men did or may have used some Staff blood up into the mid 70's or so. Probably not today.

Mike Ferris used a lot of the Doyle/Tacoma dogs and just maybe, (just maybe) Tudor might have as well. Instead of spending money to ship Staff dogs from England. I would think it would cost good money back then to ship a Staff dog from England. I did not get the impression that Tudor was a wealthy man that could spend money in that fashion. Once again only he knew. If there is a will there is a way. Once again if the stories and rumors be true.

So, see how I have added interesting true story's with some rumors or hear say that can not be proven today or back then. If one has well built, good acting dogs today. All the dogs look a like and not a Heinz 57 assortment of looking dogs. You are ahead of the game. Only one thing left to do some day. That is the oil checking/ culling process/matching process that will prove the real deal Truth for all to see and know. Cheers

[Foxman]

Tudor didn't ever tell me he imported any dogs. I lived and was raised 10 miles from him. I think I know about as much as anyone about his dogs. There were lots of Henry dogs around for Earl to get from people in the USA. He liked dogs that had been tried. He didn't care how they were bred as long as he could win with them. He constantly took in new bloodlines. He was always adding new stuff to his bloodlines. There is a Amstaff called Ipso Facto added around 1965 to his dogs. He also got a dog in the early days from A Black man at Fox Oklahoma. The dogs name was Dillinger he bred the snot out of him. He was stolen from armitage. Armatage speaks of this dog in his book and the black man but not Earl. I don't believe Earl ever got the papers on that dog. In the late 50's around 59 they fixed it where you could buy liquior in Oklahoma. That killed Earls bootleg business. You don't see him fighting any dogs shortly after that or buying many dogs. Mayfield called his the purest of the purest but they had lots of bloodlines in them. I know. I was at some fights and tudor was setting by a friend of mine and his wife. Tudor kept staring at my friends wife's straddle. All Of a sudden he took his hand and rubbed her between the legs. She got as red as a beet and whispered something to her husband. He got up and moved her on the other side of him away from Earl. Earl went back to watching the fight just like nothing happened. I thought what an idiot. Yet he was drunk. I wouldn't have done that drunk in front of 150 people. He had lots of different bloodlines up to the dibo stuff including that Colby-Dibo cross called Lucky toward the end. Lucky sireds some good dogs. Lots of old timers are not normal. Bill De Cordova was the best most honest dog man I ever met. Jim Williams a lawman was not straight up with me. He robbed me bad once.

[evolutionkennels]

Tudor didn't ever tell me he imported any dogs. I lived and was raised 10 miles from him. I think I know about as much as anyone about his dogs. There were lots of Henry dogs around for Earl to get from people in the USA. He liked dogs that had been tried. He didn't care how they were bred as long as he could win with them. He constantly took in new bloodlines. He was always adding new stuff to his bloodlines. There is a Amstaff called Ipso Facto added around 1965 to his dogs. He also got a dog in the early days from A Black man at Fox Oklahoma. The dogs name was Dillinger he bred the snot out of him. He was stolen from armitage. Armatage speaks of this dog in his book and the black man but not Earl. I don't believe Earl ever got the papers on that dog. In the late 50's around 59 they fixed it where you could buy liquior in Oklahoma. That killed Earls bootleg business. You don't see him fighting any dogs shortly after that or buying many dogs. Mayfield called his the purest of the purest but they had lots of bloodlines in them. I know. I was at some fights and tudor was setting by a friend of mine and his wife. Tudor kept staring at my friends wife's straddle. All Of a sudden he took his hand and rubbed her between the legs. She got as red as a beet and whispered something to her husband. He got up and moved her on the other side of him away from Earl. Earl went back to watching the fight just like nothing happened. I thought what an idiot. Yet he was drunk. I wouldn't have done that drunk in front of 150 people. He had lots of different bloodlines up to the dibo stuff including that Colby-Dibo cross called Lucky toward the end. Lucky sireds some good dogs. Lots of old timers are not normal. Bill De Cordova was the best most honest dog man I ever met. Jim Williams a lawman was not straight up with me. He robbed me bad once.

Randy,

It's an absolute pleasure to have you here with us

[No Quarter Kennel]

I agree - awesome stuff. I was friends with Burton for a while and it was the same thing. Direct, "cool shit" from someone who knew.

[Officially Retired]

I agree - awesome stuff. I was friends with Burton for a while and it was the same thing. Direct, "cool shit" from someone who knew.


The Old Man I knew back in TN matched directly into both Burton (a few times) as well as Mayfield (once).
He beat Burton but lost to Mayfield.

When he faced Mayfield, the Old Man traveled to TX, and after the roadtrip to get there he said Mayfield continued to give him the runaround ...
making the crew first drive here, then drive there, etc. ... before the match actually took place.

When they arrived, the Old Man said Mayfield also had the scales rigged, and so (to make a long story short) Mayfield used a lot more than "conditioning" to win dogfights ...
The man who mentored the Old Man in the 60s (a local dogman named Paul Sweeney) faced and beat Earl Tudor 3-4x.

Jack

[projectx]

The Old Man I knew back in TN matched directly into both Burton (a few times) as well as Mayfield (once).
He beat Burton but lost to Mayfield.

When he faced Mayfield, the Old Man traveled to TX, and after the roadtrip to get there he said Mayfield continued to give him the runaround ...
making the crew first drive here, then drive there, etc. ... before the match actually took place.

When they arrived, the Old Man said Mayfield also had the scales rigged, and so (to make a long story short) Mayfield used a lot more than "conditioning" to win dogfights ...
The man who mentored the Old Man in the 60s (a local dogman named Paul Sweeney) faced and beat Earl Tudor 3-4x.

Jack

Jack if the scales were rigged why the hell did he go on with the fight ? if he could prove the scales were fixed like mayfield proved against other dogmen then the fight would not have gone on , but thats the first i heard of mayfield rigging scales, but you get me more than hearsay jack and i will be the first one to say so not like others one here who never see facts unless its against mayfield so as they say jack show me the money, and it was mayfeild who found out about some other dogmen who HAD RIGGED SOME SCALES and put a stop to it, so maybe your man in TN just lost to the better dog that day , just like benny bob did to jimmie boots after being driven around for hours.

PS jack most all dogmen will try to get an advantage , whether its home soil pit size driving them around a while before getting to the pit or any number of things thaat they feel may give them some small advantage, like the one you mentioned about drivng around a while , well the guys who had jimme boots did that to bennybob , drove them around for 3 hours for security as an excuse , then they find out that the motel was only 5 mins from the pit.
Or keeping a dog hanging on the scale while checking weight is another one and if the owner of the dog allows it to happen thats their stupidty , but claiming that mayfield rigged the scales is maybe your man in TN's gut feeling maybe becasue he lost and like many men before him thought they coudlnt lose and so look for a reason why , even mayfield as mentioned on this thread by CYJ couldnt believe a female of his lost and felt sure she'd been rubbed but just lost to the better dog, but your claim jack like many needs some meat on the bones before saying it , weres the proof ? mayfield proved they were rigging the scales, randy probably knows the story of when mayfield got wise to it and put a stop to it, and its a known story of how theses dogmen rigged the scales and mayfield found them out, but weres your proof other than your mans in TN 's gut feeling .

Of course without knowing who this TN dogman was its a little harder for anyone to check on anything and a little unfair as we mention other men so we have an idea of who they are and whether they also have any bagage to go along with their fame as dogmen, but not knowing who your talking about isnt very easy is it , or what other fights took place that night ,maybe other dogmen who were there might be able to add their 2 cents , but that would need a little more info than your providing other than some hearsay from only one side of at least two possibilties jack .

[CYJ]

How were the Old Man's dogs bred? Did he use one certain bloodline predominately? Very hard to drive that far even having a pound of weight advantage and win. The only way to deal with weighing scales you are not familiar with. Is to have a couple of varying Toledo US Certified weights to check the scale. The Old Man may have done just that. If just a few of you and a whole lot of them. You are not left with many choices if the other group chooses to work against you.

Was a three hour or longer drive to Atlas Brewer's place. Atlas Brewer's side kicks, then drove us around and up and down hill sides for a hour and half. Before our assumed match with him took place. Our dog did get car sick. Turned out it was Mr. Lonzo Pratt we were going into not Atlas. Pratt had been there at the show ring in advance with a rested dog ready to go. CA Jack we had one of those extra good Head/Throat dogs you prefer named Braddock's Mr Clean. Did them no good.

For any dog men that have not traveled to a far away State. With just a handful of you alls and a whole bunch of them alls waiting for you to arrive. It can not always be a pleasant experience.

V. Jackson conditioned a really nice bitch for R. Sweatman named Gold Pudding. Was into Irish Jerry's Pool Hall Red. Was a hard tit for tat match right down to the wire.

When the final scratch came up for Gold Pudding. All Jerry's fans came around to our corner. When Gold Pudding was released they went to foot stomping, caterwauling and beating on any metal object they could. Was enough to spook Sweatman's dog and stall her out. When Gold Pudding got refocused, started over to Pool Hall, she did not beat the count. Was using their referee and there was a lot of Georgia Hill Billy's there that day. Was only four of us.

Momma said they would be days like that. LOL You have to suck it up and move on to something else. Yikes!!!

[Foxman]

I always played a radio real loud and beat two pans together and jumped around while my dogs worked on the treadmill. They were use to loud noise and didn't ever have one spook with my system. If anyone came over I'd have them jump back and forth and scream and do fast movement at them. Then have them back off and repeat that process. You would be surprised what went on in the pit in those days. Earl once told me he used that bitch urine a couple of times. I ask him how that helped him. I said they wash the dogs. He said I ddin't put it on my dog I put it on me. I'd put it on my lower pant leg on one side. Then if the other dog got my dog down I would place my leg by their dog's head so he could get a good smell. He said he had one dog drop a holt and turn away from his dog and turn toward his leg. He would put vicks on his dogs nose before the fight. Earl used something on his dog to help him win. He never would tell me what it was. Danny said Earl told him what it was but he never used it. He always had guys meet at Jim Williams house and Jim would call him so he could prep his dog before they went that 23 miles from Jim's house to Earls's House to fight a dog. He made the remark to me several times. I'd like to think Mr. Booth for that win. There was a Booth drug at Hobart so I knew who he meant. I ask Mr. Booth once what Earl used he got from him to help him win dogfights. He grinned real big and said who told you that. I said Earl. He said then ask him what it was if you want to know. Mre Booth told Earl I ask him that and Earl Teased me about asking Booth that. Randy Fox

[projectx]

These are great stories and very interesting jack, but they need a separate thread as they have nothing to do with this thread , including my reply to your post .

Maybe a thread called (GAINING A FAIR ADVANTAGE FOR THE MATCH OR CHEATING) ? or some such title, anyway jack only you can move post's inoto a new or relavant thread .

[CYJ]

Ditto Foxman. We did too after that incident. I put a TV/VCR in my Building and played loud foot ball games etc. Some times the hard knock way of schooling helps a lot. LOL

In my town there was a dog man that had a deep booming voice and would get down by your dog and holler at him to let his dog go and quit biting my dog. Would holler at your dog when making it's scratch to his dog. Would cover his dog's mouth and head with his hand and arm if you let him get away with it.

Finally one time he was pulling this crap and had his face down close to both dogs. The opponent's dog released his hold to try and take a good bite hold on this guy's face. Missed his face by a mill second. He got right white looking in the Face. Look like he was going to pass out. From then on he stopped a lot of those shenanigans. LOL

I think this topic is about done far. I like war stories much better. LOL Mr. Fox if you wish, post something on the Tudor's Runt/Dibo story. Mr. Skinner told me about this back in the early 70's. Start a new topic. Enough has been said on this subject. At least for me anyway. Cheers

[Foxman]

CYJ, Most everyone knows that' I think'. About Dibo being Runt for a while. I had a female who sure out of Runt and Dam was out of Dibo. So she was inbred on Dibo. I'm not sure why he did all the paper changing. Earl told me once if you want to be famous. Get you a good dog and put your papers on him. I didn't ever ask Earl about that Dibo=Runt deal. Maloney told me about it originally. I believe he didn't have the papers he desired so he used them. I still wonder to this day how Dibo was bred. He doesn't look like his ancestors to me but I think the last se of papers might be right, Because why would you change the first to the second set unless you thought the second was right and the first set were wrong. Project-X thinks we are straying from the subject. But proving the only pure strain comes from a guy that lies about the papers and cheats in dogfights, Is just part of the testimony breaking down Project-x' Dream. Mayfield also stole a dog from Fitzawater when after they made friends later on in life. Mayfield confessed. Just some testimony showing Mayfield isn't a God and his Earl wasn't an upstanding guy either. Earl ended up with several stolen dogs throught his life. Earl's own Brother -in-law Flo's brother shot him once. Earl had been shot five or six times. Does that sound like a God.

[projectx]

CYJ, Most everyone knows that' I think'. About Dibo being Runt for a while. I had a female who sure out of Runt and Dam was out of Dibo. So she was inbred on Dibo. I'm not sure why he did all the paper changing. Earl told me once if you want to be famous. Get you a good dog and put your papers on him. I didn't ever ask Earl about that Dibo=Runt deal. Maloney told me about it originally. I believe he didn't have the papers he desired so he used them. I still wonder to this day how Dibo was bred. He doesn't look like his ancestors to me but I think the last se of papers might be right, Because why would you change the first to the second set unless you thought the second was right and the first set were wrong. Project-X thinks we are straying from the subject. But proving the only pure strain comes from a guy that lies about the papers and cheats in dogfights, Is just part of the testimony breaking down Project-x' Dream. Mayfield also stole a dog from Fitzawater when after they made friends later on in life. Mayfield confessed. Just some testimony showing Mayfield isn't a God and his Earl wasn't an upstanding guy either. Earl ended up with several stolen dogs throught his life. Earl's own Brother -in-law Flo's brother shot him once. Earl had been shot five or six times. Does that sound like a God.

Randy i never said anyone was an angel and mayfield also wasn't a choir boy, but my dream as you like to call it is based on the facts we have about blind billy and they are the same type of facts you randy like to quote in your sermons about other dogs .

Now when i said we are straying away from the thread, it was about post's which have notihng to do with the thread like jacks one about scale rigging and mine in reply to it reply whichn is deserves its own thread otherwsie whats the point of
threads on a particular subject, yours adding some historical breeidng stuff is fine but talk off a completly different subject
that doesnt have anything to do with the pedigrees should have its own thread whichim sure you many ohters including myslef can add to without confusing this one .

Now as usuall randy you want to throw your clusterbombs at folks today its tudor, with only a little at mayfield , and of course we dont know how you roll do we , i mean your a stand up living and breathing saint arent you randy , but what im saying is this, yes we all know earl said lots of stuff about learn how to cheat etc and was always trying to get an edge, no one at least not me is saying he or anyone else including mayfield didnt try what they could , but with all your knowledge about the game randy which you have and in many tihngs i think you have no axe to grind , but i have tried to put as many scenarios regarding billy into place, and unless you or anyone else can prove that dibo was bred before he got to earls yard to minnie
and somehow billy miracoulously ended up on earls yard one year before dibo even left henzls yard id like to hear it, but not a load of what if and maybe scenarios randy actuall recorded facts like we have on both dibo and blind billy along with the floyds OWN words which i assume you not going to say hes lying are you randy , i think its a tough hole all the floyd supporters and mayfield haters are in , as floyds own words incriminate him and if hes lying about his own words that does the same, so randy lets stop trying to avoid the enevitable and admit it looks like floyd may not have been as saintly as some folks on this forum would like to have us believe randy and of course that would lead us to eli and that would lead us to MAYFIELD and that randy would break some folks hearts and collapse the house of cards that is the blind billy and eli cover up.

Now randy before you reply with your diversion tactics like you always do, try giving the good folks here more than just
some what if and maybe scenario and you heard this or that , what facts do you have, cos so far randy all you have done is scream as loud as you can about me and my words , but the fact is their not my words or even MYAIFELDS words randy their FLOYDS own words along with the dobs and uncontested histroical storys that we have for dibo ,and all the wanting
to change them facts to help old floyd isnt going to change them ,and i wonddr if it was mayfield in floyds place if you would be runing around like a jack rabbit trying to find a hole to jump into to avoid the the jaws of the dog , i doubt it.

Randy whatever your problem with mayfield is and i know were it stems from, thats fine everyone has a side , but when
you as you always do you like to drip feed every post with negative vibes towards him , when other folks say something positive you never back that up do you andyou never counter other negative psots about mayfield, like jacks scale rigging post, which may be true but may also be untrue as i think as you know everything about this breed that it was mayfield who found out
that another set of dogemn were rigging some scales and he put a stop to it, now im not saying that means he didnt riig scales himself , just as you or any other dogman may or may not have done soemthing who knows right, but you never counter to help mayfield you only either say negative tihngs mostly or chip in to agree with others or say nothing which considering your knwledge base i find astounding but completly in character with your modis operandai , so gang up do what you want keep telling us what so and so said and deny to yourself all you like, but its a shame that your dislike for don takes you to keep trying to cover up for floyd .

Randy i know you take this personally , but i dont ahte you but please dont treat me like a fool ,you may get away with that with other folks , but not with me, and we can agree to have different opinions and that i can respect from any man
just like your view on the dam to tombstone vs' my view , i dont agree but i can see how it could be true, as their is more room for other possibilties but no hard facts to really change the pedigree just words of mouth and other circumstantial evidence ,which one can make their own mind up to, but randy not with billy and the fact that you would atack me with such hate rather than stronger and more opposing facts to prove them wrong which i would respect regardless of our
views , but you cant bring yourself to do it, to be a sportsman to say ok it looks bad but i still dont think its like that ,but i can see how it looks bad for floyd , and that would be a man who can be honest even if it hurts , and someone who can
disagree but see your side of the argument when the arguemnt is hard to beat , but randy so far you have not been that man ,but i have , so randy i dont expect your reply to be any different to your others , but who knows its the christmas
period and they do say miracles happen at christmas time , but all this thread should hope to achieve is getting a little nearer the truth about some famous dogs with disputed pedigrees as best as we can ,and with that randy i wish you
and your loved ones a happy new year.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack if the scales were rigged why the hell did he go on with the fight ? if he could prove the scales were fixed like mayfield proved against other dogmen then the fight would not have gone on , but thats the first i heard of mayfield rigging scales, but you get me more than hearsay jack and i will be the first one to say so not like others one here who never see facts unless its against mayfield so as they say jack show me the money, and it was mayfeild who found out about some other dogmen who HAD RIGGED SOME SCALES and put a stop to it, so maybe your man in TN just lost to the better dog that day , just like benny bob did to jimmie boots after being driven around for hours.

PS jack most all dogmen will try to get an advantage , whether its home soil pit size driving them around a while before getting to the pit or any number of things thaat they feel may give them some small advantage, like the one you mentioned about drivng around a while , well the guys who had jimme boots did that to bennybob , drove them around for 3 hours for security as an excuse , then they find out that the motel was only 5 mins from the pit.
Or keeping a dog hanging on the scale while checking weight is another one and if the owner of the dog allows it to happen thats their stupidty , but claiming that mayfield rigged the scales is maybe your man in TN's gut feeling maybe becasue he lost and like many men before him thought they coudlnt lose and so look for a reason why , even mayfield as mentioned on this thread by CYJ couldnt believe a female of his lost and felt sure she'd been rubbed but just lost to the better dog, but your claim jack like many needs some meat on the bones before saying it , weres the proof ? mayfield proved they were rigging the scales, randy probably knows the story of when mayfield got wise to it and put a stop to it, and its a known story of how theses dogmen rigged the scales and mayfield found them out, but weres your proof other than your mans in TN 's gut feeling .

Of course without knowing who this TN dogman was its a little harder for anyone to check on anything and a little unfair as we mention other men so we have an idea of who they are and whether they also have any bagage to go along with their fame as dogmen, but not knowing who your talking about isnt very easy is it , or what other fights took place that night ,maybe other dogmen who were there might be able to add their 2 cents , but that would need a little more info than your providing other than some hearsay from only one side of at least two possibilties jack .

OR, maybe, Mayfield was a fucking cheat....maybe, maybe, blah blah blah

[projectx]

OR, maybe, Mayfield was a fucking cheat....maybe, maybe, blah blah blah

Hey NQK still waiting for my appology, but i see that your back to hateing on me via mayfield and bringing the thread and forum into disrepute with your posts all about attacking me and mayfield for no good reason and you dont see me going onto any thread you psot and jsut saying shit towards you for the sake of it but then im a better man than you and have some honour ,you on the other hand are jsut a boy who vcant face his truth but you will, and soon trust me . Well if mayfield cheated by rigging scales its the first time i heard that ,but anytihngs possibloe, but i see you only post when you can try to put mayfield down to get at me and never add anything of worth to this threads topic.

I dont suppose anyone else could be a cheat , nqk , i mean what about the guy from TN that your defending and you dont know whether he was a cheat or whatever you just chime in to try and put mayfield down, a man who won 84 times out of 102 matches, and an excuse for a man like you chimes in on a post, (which may be true just like the man from tn maybe a cheat right or anyone for that matter) and all you do is show yourself for the poor sorry person you are, just shows i was right all along about you, your not a man you cant even give a decent appology , well just keep your appolgy it wouldnt be worth damn coming from you anyway .

Hell i dont think even randy who loves to stick the knife into old don would have said such a dumbass thing like you did, all your doing is showing your hate to me rather than any understanding you may have, and whether mayfield floyd tudor or anyone did or didnt cheat by rubbing or fixing scales as their reason for winning more than they lost then their peers of which neither you nor i are one have been the judge of that, and you are one sorry sad person who out of hate for me becasue i told you something you didnt want to hear and thats all i did , you are now are on a selfdestructive campaign to attack me which is only showing you up as somebody with nothing of value to say on anything and your showing yourself up as a joke
with posts like that ,your so obvious its unreal, if you want to start a thread on cheating start one but do some damn research before you engage your mouth i find it normally helps .

NQK maybe hammonds is a cheat maybe? maybe your a cheat maybe?maybe were all cheats maybe? get a brain my feeble minded friend or see a doctor or better still try researching something for yourself for a change.

Now if you want to vent ,do it on pms , dont ruin the thread if you have to hate at least pretend by making a post aobut sometihng other than attacking me via mayfield or me directly and keep it to pms that way this thread can be of use to the folks that may want
to try to add something constructive other than an outpouring of bile ,take care and have a happy new year .

[bolero]

u dont have facts u have earls word of dibos birth which could very well b a lie

[projectx]

u dont have facts u have earls word of dibos birth which could very well b a lie

Bolero then lets do this lets say everyone including you and me are a lair's and not take any historical or actuall words from anyone ever and start over again shall we.And if you can say why should we take earls or the men who bred dibos word for it, and all and any other timeline evidence we have and decide to not accept it, then why cant you say that about floyds words bolero? words that actually dont add up but you like others only want to doubt one side the side with a believable timeline over one that doesnt ,and if your not being onesided how come you have never once said that, maybe its floyd who is wrong rather than the overwhellming evidence before you, so i find it telling as to your motives for this denial..

Of course we dont want to do that, and we dont have just earls word for anytihng, we have a lot of words from floyd himslef, plus we have the actuall adba pedigrrees and probably the ukc pedigrees for dibo and billy and lets not forget all the other hearsay and circumstantial evidence while not being direct proof certainley adds to the facts we do have and
they show it to be a very unlikley that billy was sired by dibo, and bolero if you can find more actuall factual evidence other than what ifs and maybe's then im all ears and would welcome it with open arms, have a happy new year.

[ragedog10]

ENOUGH ALREADY. You are obsessed with this. The FACTS are Mayfield was not a good breeder peroid, if he were then he would have used Tombstone and Eli in his program he chose not to. Its sad now to watch you repeat the same thing over and over again, it seems that you hang onto every word Mayfield said. Like many have said what does it matter now? Just stop you are making yourself look crazy, whats done is done. Yis Ole Man

[Foxman]

Project-X How old are you? Have you ever seen a real dogfight? Have you ever met a real dogfighter? Why is it so important for you to believe these rumors you keep saying? Did you know this stuff has been hashed and rehashed for years with no ending? Are you handicapped and secluded in one place and have no life? What country,state,town are you from. Do you have a College Degree? Do you have any Mayfield dogs? If so have you tested them? I saw Nigger quit. His name was Black Shine when he quit. Does that bother you? A.B. Forsaythe owned him at that time. He changed hands 6 or 7 times. He was used as a roll dog and bred three times that I know of when A.B. had him. A.B. made a deal with Jim Williams to help him get him. Jim Williams went to Earls and got a Dibo female and Black Shine. A.B. traded Dusky Jr. who was a bad hard dog for those two dogs to Jim to be delivered to A.B. Forsythe. Those two that A.B. Forsythe got were bred together and all of the pups quit. I got a male out of Black Shine and a daughter to Forsythes Jeanie and Forsythe's Dusky dog. His name was Crazy and he was a good dog. He whipped two top bred dogs but was plagued with red mange. I wish he was born today. I can cure that stuff now. His dam's mother died in a fight against Colorado. She was a game dog. All of Crazy's full brothers and sisters out of Nigger (Black Shine) quit. Blackshine (Nigger) also was bred to Forsythe's Jeanie. One of them was kept as a stud dog but the rest quit. Mayfield had several that were good game dogs. I'm guessing he bred up 10 that were top winning dogs. That is a poor average if you count all he bred. Kind of like the man said in the movie. Project-X 'Do you like apples? Well how about them apples? Please answer some of my questions. Randy Fox

[Officially Retired]

:lol:

Ya know ... I am tempted to close this thread, because of the insanity of the digression, but occasionally some gems do come out of it ... as with the post above ... so I will leave it up for now.

Cheers,

Jack

[ragedog10]

Yea when someone beside s Project X posts lol.

[Officially Retired]

LOL, yep.

Gotta give him credit for being game though :)

[No Quarter Kennel]

LOL, yep.

Gotta give him credit for being game though :)

That's some funny shit right there.

Randy - awesome stuff man. I think alot of guys around my age would agree - we all was born about 30 years too late.

[projectx]

Project-X How old are you? Have you ever seen a real dogfight? Have you ever met a real dogfighter? Why is it so important for you to believe these rumors you keep saying? Did you know this stuff has been hashed and rehashed for years with no ending? Are you handicapped and secluded in one place and have no life? What country,state,town are you from. Do you have a College Degree? Do you have any Mayfield dogs? If so have you tested them? I saw Nigger quit. His name was Black Shine when he quit. Does that bother you? A.B. Forsaythe owned him at that time. He changed hands 6 or 7 times. He was used as a roll dog and bred three times that I know of when A.B. had him. A.B. made a deal with Jim Williams to help him get him. Jim Williams went to Earls and got a Dibo female and Black Shine. A.B. traded Dusky Jr. who was a bad hard dog for those two dogs to Jim to be delivered to A.B. Forsythe. Those two that A.B. Forsythe got were bred together and all of the pups quit. I got a male out of Black Shine and a daughter to Forsythes Jeanie and Forsythe's Dusky dog. His name was Crazy and he was a good dog. He whipped two top bred dogs but was plagued with red mange. I wish he was born today. I can cure that stuff now. His dam's mother died in a fight against Colorado. She was a game dog. All of Crazy's full brothers and sisters out of Nigger (Black Shine) quit. Blackshine (Nigger) also was bred to Forsythe's Jeanie. One of them was kept as a stud dog but the rest quit. Mayfield had several that were good game dogs. I'm guessing he bred up 10 that were top winning dogs. That is a poor average if you count all he bred. Kind of like the man said in the movie. Project-X 'Do you like apples? Well how about them apples? Please answer some of my questions. Randy Fox

Randy hows these apples BLIND BILLY IS NOT OUT OF DIBO. AND AS FOR ME TELLING YOU MY PERSONAL BUISSNESS WELL THATS FOR MY FRIENDS TO KNOW ABOUT AND YOU ARE NOT MY FRIEND .

Randy nice try at another smoke screen asking me some dumbass questions that have zero to do with the thread, and again you avoid givng an answer that makes sense.I dont expect you to agree with me even if it obvious that there is certainly a need for some explanation at the very least regarding blind billy, but you cant even bring yourself to admit that YES THERE IS SOME FACTS THAT NEED EXLPLAINING as things just dont add up, but you cant even say that , but thats fine randy just keep on denying the obvious long enough and im sure you will beileve it and get others to belive it also.

As for nigger quitting, well i would not doubt for a minute that nigger may have indeed quit when you saw him , just as i have no doubt he didnt quit when D. burton seen him rolled into tiger dan ,but what does that have to do with your friend floyd boudreuaxs ped on blind billy ?


Anyway you and the gang here otherwise known as the braintrust have had more than a week to come up with a good excuse to prove floyd was shall we say mistaken about
blind billy's ped , but still only diversions and you and the braintrust can only make silly child like posts about me, mmm i wonder if you all put your heads together you may come up with an idea that holds water, just an idea from me i wouldnt want anyone to say i dont help you when i can . Now guys keep those blinkers on im sure your eyes wouldnt be able to take the light anyway so happy new year to you all.

[ragedog10]

I have a question Floyd got the dog from Earl so should nt u be upset with Earl? It would seem to me that Earl would have been the one to hang papers on Billy. All Floyd did was go off what was told to him. Randy makes a good point and yes i would nt expect you to admit to illegal things online but it does seem that you have very little real world expirence with these dogs. Again none of this matters now.

[projectx]

I have a question Floyd got the dog from Earl so should nt u be upset with Earl? It would seem to me that Earl would have been the one to hang papers on Billy. All Floyd did was go off what was told to him. Randy makes a good point and yes i would nt expect you to admit to illegal things online but it does seem that you have very little real world expirence with these dogs. Again none of this matters now.

Hi ragedog, at last your entering into the debate with some thought on the matter and thats good.I dont think i should be annoyed at earl as the evidnece points to billy never being out of dibo and as such earl never sold him the dog .
I put all thepieces in place that are out there for anyone to see if they look for it, and the whole thing doesnt add up
so if your asking me could earl have put false papers on billy, well maybe , but only if he had actually bred the dog in
the first place could we even consider that possibilty , but the evidence points to floyd never geting billy from earl at all.
As for my real world expierience, well just for you ragedog , i have been around the dogs since 1987 , now please as you have taken the first step towards debate please look at the facts then think it through and if you dont think theres questions that need answering ok but at least lets keep this dwebate on these lines not personallly attacking me for trying ot get to the truth ok take care .

[ragedog10]

Ok then why would Earl be so happy at Billy second match yelling and carring on? Also dont you think Earl would have said something when Billy was alive? I mean with historical info we do have Earl was alive and well, so to me that does nt make sense to me. If there was paper hanging that went on then do you blame the breeder or the owner who took the breeders word? You have dogs and been around since 87 then i think the most important thing is for one to be happy with whats in ones backyard i assume you are just like me. So in the end how Billy was bred or wasnt has no effect on the dogs we feed today to much time has passed. Yis Ole Man

[Foxman]

I think I got this figured out. I'm not allowed to ask any questions that you can't and or will not answer. Yet you expect me to answer question that I or no one else can answer. Half those questions I ask you. You can answer without any consequences. You twist and turn to get out of answering anything. All you do is Rattle ,Rattle, Rattle on. I'm done. Randy Fox

[projectx]

I think I got this figured out. I'm not allowed to ask any questions that you can't and or will not answer. Yet you expect me to answer question that I or no one else can answer. Half those questions I ask you. You can answer without any consequences. You twist and turn to get out of answering anything. All you do is Rattle ,Rattle, Rattle on. I'm done. Randy Fox

Randy if im not mistaken the thread is called : DISPUTED OR FAKE PEDS FROM THE PAST AND PRESENT and considering that
i have been replying to your psots and from the very first one i have been asking you to explain the discrepancies in dobs and timelines for dibo and blind billy if you think floyd was correct , but you have done none of that so far, all you have done is come up with a half baked theory and now you resort to trying to turn the tables on me with posts such as this last one claiming that i wont answer your questions which have nothing to do with the thread , so if anyone is trying to turn the tables RANDY FOX its you, and if you cant or dont want to give a reasonable and non hypothetical answer feel free , but
i wont hold my breath for that to happen , and randy i knew you were done the second you tried your diversion tactics and trying to change the subject matter, maybe that might open some folks eyes on here as to WHY rather than argue the point on its merits like we did on tombstone .

[projectx]

Ok then why would Earl be so happy at Billy second match yelling and carring on? Also dont you think Earl would have said something when Billy was alive? I mean with historical info we do have Earl was alive and well, so to me that does nt make sense to me. If there was paper hanging that went on then do you blame the breeder or the owner who took the breeders word? You have dogs and been around since 87 then i think the most important thing is for one to be happy with whats in ones backyard i assume you are just like me. So in the end how Billy was bred or wasnt has no effect on the dogs we feed today to much time has passed. Yis Ole Man

Hi ragedog , well if earl did yell at blind billys scratch , does that mean blind billy must be out of dibo? is that more evidence that actual facts we do have.Now ragedog for you say to me WELL WOULDNT EARL HAVE SAID SOMETHING , well first off if every breeder of every dog whos pedigree is disputed told everything we wouldnt be taking about it today would we, and also most folks just kept quiet and didnt say much , it was a few rumours and whispers back then more so than today , so lets say if i read you right your saying if earl knew blind billy wasnt out of dibo why didnt he say
so ? Well how many stories today you hear from 50 /40 /30 years ago from dogmen who knew but kept quiet ?PLenty and if earl even knew about it he probalby didnt care about it ,he certainly wasnt going to bother himself with that, he probably didnt care less about it, im sure he wouldnt have said a thing and many others woudlnt have either as infact histroy shows. Today rememeber we have everything coming out withtin days or weeks and instant global information, back then things were more word of mouth and stayed more local so what went down in texas or oaklahoma didnt become common knowledge all over america and the world like it would today with the internet .

I do agree that it doesnt affect the dogs we have today, but all of these dogs and many others that have become famous
and their owners along with them make for interesting debate, but blind billy along with the eli back story has some of the most compelling eividence we have on any dogs true heritage (other than one mans word against another which is what we have in most other cases ), in billys case we have the dibos dob + story which gives us a good indication as to when tudor got him , and from that we can take the dob on billy and floyds own words as to when he was born and start putting the pieces toggether and see if they add up , and thats without adding in any hearsay or circumstantial evidence to it.

I have put them on here a few times and so far everyone has decided to ignore them or make up other what if and maybe scenarios, which of course like anythng in life we can always find a scenario that however improbable
it may seem could be true , but in most cases the probable always makes more sense than the improbable and fits much more neatly also.

I hope ragedog that by looking into it a little more you will find that there are some things that dont make sense
and certainly cant be explained away by earl hollering at a scratch billy made , he may also have had money on billy or like many dogmen just love to see a deep game dog scratch and he may also have been a little merry from booze as aluded to by others ,so to overlook the factual for the many and varied reasons why a man might do something is invariably not the actual reason we might think he did infact do it for .

Ok one last go dibo dob 21 march 1951 billy dob 1952 even if billys dob was dec 31 1952 it still doesnt make sense although
possible if we didnt have a timeline for dibos life, and as far as we know and there is no evidence to suggest dibo
was bred untill earl tudor got him in his yard in late 1953 or 1954 which means that somethng cant be right.

Yes of course we could say WHAT IF HEINZL BRED HIM and never told earl which could be possible, but not very probable
because we now a lot about both dibo and heinzl.Firstly had heinzl bred dibo then how did blind billy end up on earls yard
for floyd to buy him ? there is no evidence that heinzl told earl he had bred dibo before and then decided to send him billy,
and if he had bred him secretly wouldnt he then have kept the dog as it would seem pointless to have bred dibo secretly to
then give away the dog later , which is why this possibile scenario like most others is one of those improbable ones
which always have to many loose ends and it doesnt make sense.

The fact is we have no evidence to prove heinzl bred dibo while on his yard ,and the earliest date we have for dibo getting to earls is at the earliest in late 1953 or sometime later in 1954, but even allowing for the earlier date and based on the actual facts we have about both dibo and billys timeline it would make it an improbable possibilty .

Now i will add this known fact which is before ELI came along floyd never had any black dogs but crybaby was one of the them ,and the claim is that crybaby and little cotton are infact eli's true sire and dam, as mayfield had put her on floyds yard to let her whelp as he was having some personal problems at home ,and asked floyd to look after her until, she whelped and then he would come and pick up crybaby and the pups ,and he hoped it would all be ok by then.

When mayfield called floyd to see if she had whelped , floyd told him all the pups were born dead , but when mayfield
went to pick her up some weeks later crybaby looked like she had been nursing but just left it at that but he knew
something wasnt right.

This was in 1965 and now comes the hearsay and circumstantial evidence to add to all the other known facts we have
like dobs timelines dibos known histroy and the crybaby story.

Well after eli comes along floyds yard becomes the yard of black dogs and two years later floyd show up with ELI at pitside and mayfield and others like leo kinard and curly hayes all asked mayfield are those the pups from crybaby, and where did floyd get the black dog from , and of course mayfield knew what had gone down at that point.

Floyd had also supposedly told leo kinard and junior bush sometime later that ELI was out of crybaby , and sonny sykes was also at floyds yard and seen crybaby nursing the pups and floyd had offered him a pup from the litter at that time.

Now if we all just look at the circumstantial evidence and hearsay evidence alone wihtout any dobs timelines etc and we
know for a fact that crybaby was on floyds yard full of pups ,then if we assume the pups didnt die then that alone would
in all probabilty point to ELI being out of crybaby x cotton and not blind billy ,which would then certianly put doubt on blind billys pedigree alone without any of the dob or timelne evidence etc.

Of course it might be also possible that the pups did infact die and floyd never told leo kinard or junior bush some time later that ELI was out of crybaby x cotton or that sonny sykes ever saw crybaby nursing pups ,eventhough considering
the aftermath that ELI created and how floyds yard which upto that time had never had black dogs and he had billy since the 50s but in reality it was only after ELIS arrival that floyds yard became black even if the peds on lots of other supposed blind billy offspring show otherwsie the game knew of floyds yard and it wasnt the yard of black dogs before ELi came along.

So just the hearsay and circumstantial evidence alone points more towards crybaby x cotton, but i also agree there is also the chance it isn't.

But now if you take the full facts as we know them to be true includng dobs for dibo and blind billy plus dibos known story
and timeline and known breding history plus crybaby full of pups, then add in if you actually need to the hearsay and circumstantial evidence and i think its the most obvious and overwhelming evidence on any dog with a dsiputed pedigree
we have yet to see , and i dont expect any of you to agree with me because i say its so, but because the evidence both
factual and circumstantial points to it .

I would hope that the least any of you would do is to weigh up the possibilty that indeed blind billy has some doubts as does ELI's and i hope that looking at all the evidence both the probable and improbable circumstantial and hearsay along with
the actual known facts we do have ,that you will give it and me a fair and honest hearing without prejudice.

Happy new year and may it be a good one for all of you .

[ragedog10]

Bullshit aside you do make very good points but the truth is there are a million things that could of took place. But hey its possible it really is. Happy New Year Ole Man D.M.D.K

[projectx]

Bullshit aside you do make very good points but the truth is there are a million things that could of took place. But hey its possible it really is. Happy New Year Ole Man D.M.D.K

Hi ragedog what bullshit aside? the bullshit if there is any would be in the maybe what if improbable scenarios i outlined
not in the actual known facts , theres no bullshit in those .

And theres really not many outcomes certainley not a million, if you look at the overalll picture and go with the what is the probable truth based on all the facts we have and what makes sense, but at least your starting to see what is there now
and thtas all i can ask for take care.

[ragedog10]

By bullshit i meant the bickering and arguing in the post

[projectx]

By bullshit i meant the bickering and arguing in the post

Hi ragedog , yes i agree that bickering is bullshit, but it wasnt me who started it, i just posted my thoery or the old theorys that have been talked about before ,and boom you all just went to attaking me rather than debating the subject, but im glad you have now started to do that ragedog ,lets hope some others try to look at the probable and factual over the improbable and the unlikely .

[Black Hand]

There are no facts. just second hand stories and 50 year old recorded info that may or may not be accurate. For arguments sake, it is possible for birthdays to be recorded wrong, stories to be embellished or strong details left out/added over time. None of the information here is factual or should I say nothing here can be proven as factual. It's history aka his--story. it's whatever you'd like to make of it but unless you got a time machine or DNA samples... this is 16 pages of speculation. There is no proving who blind billy was off, nor Eli. Unless you know all parties involved and witnessed it or got conclusive stories from everyone, you will never know the truth. 3 sides to a story, your side his side and then the truth wich will remain untold.

[projectx]

There are no facts. just second hand stories and 50 year old recorded info that may or may not be accurate. For arguments sake, it is possible for birthdays to be recorded wrong, stories to be embellished or strong details left out/added over time. None of the information here is factual or should I say nothing here can be proven as factual. It's history aka his--story. it's whatever you'd like to make of it but unless you got a time machine or DNA samples... this is 16 pages of speculation. There is no proving who blind billy was off, nor Eli. Unless you know all parties involved and witnessed it or got conclusive stories from everyone, you will never know the truth. 3 sides to a story, your side his side and then the truth wich will remain untold.

Hi blackhand, i agree their is always the chance that every detsail of every pedigree and every story on every dog in every book and magazine could all be wrong and all the dates wrong , but on the facts or known history which has never been disputed and pedigrees filed with the various registries adba and ukc then adding the circumstantial evidence it certainly looks like someone was not being completly honest thats for sure, and my money using all of the evidence both factual and circumstantial would be to go with the the law of probable over the more improbable , which leads me to floyd having been a naughty boy .

Blackhand my question to you is this, if we for one minute agree for arguments sake that all the dobs and the dibo stroy is correct plus crybaby and using floyds own words and if you need to add in the circumstantial evidence (i dont think it matters much but it does add up if you take the other evidence as true ) and tell me what conclusion you would make
as to blind billy and subsequently ELI and his probable true pedigree .

[No Quarter Kennel]

I don't know how he has the time to do this, but Projectx is just jacking with everyone here. Surely I'm right. No one can be this big an idiot........can they?

Happy New Year ProjectX

[Officially Retired]

There are no facts. just second hand stories and 50 year old recorded info that may or may not be accurate. For arguments sake, it is possible for birthdays to be recorded wrong, stories to be embellished or strong details left out/added over time. None of the information here is factual or should I say nothing here can be proven as factual. It's history aka his--story. it's whatever you'd like to make of it but unless you got a time machine or DNA samples... this is 16 pages of speculation. There is no proving who blind billy was off, nor Eli. Unless you know all parties involved and witnessed it or got conclusive stories from everyone, you will never know the truth. 3 sides to a story, your side his side and then the truth wich will remain untold.

:appl:

[Nut]

Why not put your time in the future. The way those dogs were bred is no longer relevant?

[Officially Retired]

Why not put your time in the future. The way those dogs were bred is no longer relevant?

That is a fitting way to end this thread :idea:

[Officially Retired]

This thread was closed because of what an incredible lemming Project X was, but CYJ asked that I place this addendum in here:



Hello Jack. That ProjectX topic section was closed. Which it should have been. I was looking at my comments on the V. Jackson X Pool Hall Red match. I talked to V. Jackson a few days back and he is coming to visit me tomorrow.

His Step son is getting married this Sunday in Beaufort S.C. So V.J. and his wife are coming through. First time I have seem him face to face in 20 years.

I ask him if he had used his Shiloh bitch that night against Pool Hall Red. He told me no, that it was a good little carver bred bitch owned by Robert Swetman, named Gold Pudding. Gold Pudding and Shiloh looked a lot a like so being so many years ago. I named the wrong dog in that event. R. Swetman and H. Hargrove were good friends and had dogs of their own and together.

I was wanting to go back in that topic section and edit my remarks and correct. IF I make a mistake or misquote. I try to fix any wrong info. pronto.

I did not put in there all that could be told about that match due to hurting some of these younger dog men's confidence in their personal today dogs.

Gold Pudding was a vicious hard biting dog like Pool Hall Red. Red got in some serious early shots that told on Gold Pudding later in the game. Had not been for V.J.'s outstanding conditioning a lesser dog would have lost in the early stages of that match.

Gold Pudding took some vicious hard nose holds on Pool Hall's muzzle, we thought her muzzle was going to be torn off. Pool Hall was screaming for all she was worth, do not blame her, I would be too. LOL

At the end, Gold Pudding after deliberately stalled by the noisy crowd. Made a dead game scratch pushing with her back legs to a foot of Pool Hall Red. Got counted out. On the courtesy scratch when I. Jerry released Pool Hall Red. She would not cross the scratch line and went back behind Jerry's legs. Gold Pudding died not many minutes after leaving the pit.

When Pool Hall fought Mayfield's Easy. She had been taken to the well one time to many. Was never in the match and Jerry picked her up. Cheers


I only edited one part, to spare a person's name from being used, but this is the private message CYJ sent to me, above, concerning the history of these dogs.

Jack

PS: Now that Project X has received the boot, I have opened this topic back up ...

[BLACKDAWGICE]

ALOT IF THE FAKE PEDS CAME WHEN RALPH TOOK OVER THE ADBA WHEN HE LET PEOPLE REG THEIR DOGS ANY THEY WANTED TO,TO BIULD UP MEMBERSHIP. JIMMY BOOTS PED WAS CHANGE TOO FROM WHAT IT ORIGNALLY WAS.DON EXPOSED A LOT OF DOGMEN,AND DON WAS RIGHT I TOO WAS TOLD HE WAS A CRAZY OLDMAN THAT SMOKED WEED ALLDAY BUT DON WAS TELLING THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

[bossman311]

ALOT IF THE FAKE PEDS CAME WHEN RALPH TOOK OVER THE ADBA WHEN HE LET PEOPLE REG THEIR DOGS ANY THEY WANTED TO,TO BIULD UP MEMBERSHIP. JIMMY BOOTS PED WAS CHANGE TOO FROM WHAT IT ORIGNALLY WAS.DON EXPOSED A LOT OF DOGMEN,AND DON WAS RIGHT I TOO WAS TOLD HE WAS A CRAZY OLDMAN THAT SMOKED WEED ALLDAY BUT DON WAS TELLING THE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH

I believe that also about allot of dogs.
Have personally many of dogs papers get changed as they go thru hands over the years.
Folks post pics of dogs & pups that look nothing like the dogs I've seen & when look @ peds can catch sometimes the one that got changed.
The only way to have the right papers is to breed your own dogs.
You can never guarantee what others did before you but you can what you put your name on.
You only know what you see.

[S_B]

Probably one of my favorite (controversial) threads here.

Bumping it up for some of you newer guys, there are some gold nuggets within.

Enjoy!
S_B

[evolutionkennels]

http://www.machobuck.com/Downy.jpg

here you go!