Mentors

[BONEDADDY]

I hear a lot of dogmen complain about the youngsters in the game. How many of you have tried to teach them what to do without trying to sell them something. I hate it when a young knuckle head tells me that they bought a dog from some so-called dogman and I get to their yard and the dog is living in HELL!!! I suggest that we teach them how to take care of a mutt before we even consider letting them get a good bulldog. It's a shame that we complain about the media focusing on us and we let some young nobody get a bulldog because they got the $ to pay an expensive ticket. I hear dogmen say cull them, but I say teach them and if they are not willing to learn, then cull them. What are your takes on this?
Bonedaddy

[Officially Retired]

I hear a lot of dogmen complain about the youngsters in the game. How many of you have tried to teach them what to do without trying to sell them something. I hate it when a young knuckle head tells me that they bought a dog from some so-called dogman and I get to their yard and the dog is living in HELL!!! I suggest that we teach them how to take care of a mutt before we even consider letting them get a good bulldog. It's a shame that we complain about the media focusing on us and we let some young nobody get a bulldog because they got the $ to pay an expensive ticket. I hear dogmen say cull them, but I say teach them and if they are not willing to learn, then cull them. What are your takes on this?
Bonedaddy


I have done everything humanly possible to provide "mentorship" on a lot of different subjects ... from internet posts dating back to the mid-90s ... to magazine articles I've sent to various mags ... to publishing books ... to publishing DVDs ... to (now) creating a massive Online APBT Database chronicling step-by-step, EVERY step, a person can take to do his best in the sport of dogs.

Eventually, I got to the point where I no longer published my phone number, just because of all the phone calls I would get from complete strangers wanting me to help them in an infinite number of ways, but before I shut my phone off, I have had no telling how many different discussions with no telling how many people over the years.

Invariably, what I have noticed is that people who try hard, try hard ... while half-asses continue to be half-asses :idea:
It has been my perpetual hope and goal to have folks take heed and really do try their best to emulate the time-proven methods we use.

Unfortunately, and ultimately, I believe those who have it in their genes to do their best, WILL ... and those who don't have it in their genes to try their best won't.

This database will be here for anyone who's interested for as long as there's a breath of life in me, and I truly feel it is the best I (or anyone) can do to provide a blueprint as to how to do things right for their dogs.
On the side, I will always be willing to help folks, as I am sure you are, if I get the feeling that they're really the type of person to do their best.

Jack

[EWO]

Mentors are great. I was lucky enough coming along. My best friend's Pops was hard in the dogs in the 60's and 70's. I sort of grew up in and around the dogs. Later a close friend of his helped me a ton when I was "young with my own dogs". I will admit they prevented me from making a lot of mistakes (normal/typical mistakes) a lot of new guys make. I did not waste a lot of good money and good dogs in getting to a good place. I started off a few notches ahead of the average first time guy. I am much appreciative of that, but, with that said.....

A mentor is only as good as the person being mentored. People seeking knowledge and understanding find it more times than not. People looking for magic pills, quick fixes and fast money seldom find what they are looking for. I think that is where the disconnect occurs. The percentage of people willing to shovel the shit from a good dog for two years is very low. The percentages of guys willing to shovel another man's dog shit in exchange for knowledge and experience is even lower. That is just an example. I think when the 'mentor' sees the desire and willingness to work at the craft from the mentored there is a better flow of information. The new guy that comes running with a handful of money, a big mouth and has already "done it all", I doubt there will be a lot of information/experience passed along.

I believe it goes both ways. And when one is in need of something sometimes he has to be willing to give a little more than he gets in the beginning and let time even things out. Too many people gotta' have it right now. It is a 'right click and got it' world we live in now but learning dogs is far from just a right click away. EWO

[EWO]

As I thought about the last paragraph, I will admit there is so much information out there (this site being an excellent example) there is really no reason for a dog not to be well cared for, well fed, well wormed/great parasite control, well housed and brought to maturity being fit, happy and healthy. It is just so much out there with the 'right click'. It is so much easier to know how to care for dogs than it was years ago. Maybe that is the disconnect. Still thinking on it. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, I got into dogs in a similar fashion as you, minus the friend's dad who was in dogs. I fell in with active people who prevented me from making all the typical mistakes, and much like you, the dogs and experiences I received were steps above most people starting off.

I've mentored 2 people and feel as if I'm helping a third at this point. I don't know if I could do it without having hands on with them and seeing them do things to point out the good and the bad. Some people catch on quicker than others due to their natural aptitude. Some people are more intellectual in WHAT they're doing, but it takes them a little longer in the actual experience to see what needs to be seen, etc. They all have their faults and positive points. The biggest thing I've noticed is that they all want it RIGHT now, much like EWO said. That's not really a bad or a good thing, it's just natural enthusiasm. I'd rather see/have that, and harness it for good use, than someone scared to learn or do it.

I believe what Jack said is right also. "I believe those who have it in their genes to do their best, WILL ... and those who don't have it in their genes to try their best won't."

[EWO]

Well said, I agree. There is nothing wrong with wanting it right now and having the willingness to put that want into motion with work and learning is pretty hard to beat. The opposite would be wanting it right now and using the magic pills and potions (or a big handful of money) in an attempt to make it happen. The latter does not last very long. Good posts. EWO

[SteelyDan]

Finding a good mentor is just as hard as someone looking for a good protege.

As a young dogger looking to jump in neck deep and set the world on fire (ya i know i want it now!!!! lol patience is a bitch) it was hard and still is hard to find the right people to provide the avenue for success. When i started in dogs i was surrounded by those who were not successful. It took me quitting a good paying career and moving across country to surround myself with the doggers i needed. That sacrifice spoke a lot for my dedication i feel. I think most folks just getting into these dogs dont realize the lifestyle change and cant handle it. Living in the middle of nowhere because of the privacy that is needed, realizing that the balance between life and bulldogs is LIFE IS BULLDOGS is hard to grasp. Although people think they want to be a dogman, they dont realize that it can be a lonely isolating lifestyle. It runs a lot of wannabes off. On top of that the responsibilities of a protege can encompass all of their work in addition to their mentors work. Double duty on a large yard is a ton of work and a ton of money. It comes with a lot of education though.

The point im getting at is... If the process of mentoring a protege is done correctly the weak will cull themselves.... and if you are serious about learning these dogs you will cull many people off your list that are potential mentors and will most likely end up learning from a handful of successful dogmen and learning what not to do from many more unsuccessful doggers.

[H.C.B.A.Kennel]

great read and yes its so hard to find a soild person to teach you the right and wrong ive been thru it ive shoveld and raised hounds for others thinking that if I help him he will bless me with the hounds that I needed to take over the world Lmao.but I was fooled I raised this mans dogs telling me this telling that I raised seven of his hounds for two years and spending my hard earn money than the I let the fat f---k stay @ my house thinking I got this great dogman in my house he was a fat Cur and this fool him and mr pope lied to me you can breed to him or her those fools took all the dogs and one of the dogs became a 1x for real kennel joe reed im sorry about that for me I do a lot of readind I taught myself a lot my REal Mentor is THE GREAT ARELLANO he gave me my first hound plus its very hard to find some one to help you and to keep 100 with you their is a lot of hate in this game But please remember their are still Soild Azz dogman and woman that are will to show you proper way on handleing your hounds

[Nut]

I think its great if someone is willing to teach a dedicated person what he knows. But you don't necessarily need a "mentor". I've had quiet some people who were willing to help me on different subjects. You got the people that you bought a dog from, you got friends who are in the same sport and you could simply read on google or a board like this and soak up all the info there is, open a topic and or send a PM to a member who you think that knows something about the subject that you have a question about. No you have, yes you can get.

If you put 5 dogman together who all separately had 20+ years in the game, they still going to disagree on a whole lot of subjects. So imo its always good to be a little skeptical and also ask another person what he thinks about someones opinion. I think its important, just like when you're searching for trustworthy/reliable information on the internet about lets say a car or some holiday, is to be able to fish out the right info from the right people and try to understand why something is done. If some says for example, supplement your dog iron. Try to find out why and what it exactly does for the dog. Don't be afraid. to ask ask questions, and don't be lazy to google something yourself.

[wrknapbt]

I know this is a old subject but I was thinking about it after talking to a member of this forum via PMs. I have a friend who still to this day makes stupid rookie mistakes. He will ask for information all the time and never look anything up. I myself don't sell dogs but have placed a few out to good yards/homes and I have been blessed because I ended up with owners who work their dogs in many different areas. I think many of the old timers are just tired of dealing with the guys who think they know it all and are not willing to learn anything. The day that I can say I know everything about these dogs is the day I should quit keeping dogs and find something else to do. Great subject and needs to be talked about more

[EGK]

I have to say I am one that asks questions and have learn from quite a few. My mentoring was more ask the questions of good Dogmen they know you know the answer to and take from their experience. Just cause I was TOLD the answer before wasn't satisfying. I want to know why I'm doing something, when does this apply, what should I look for, how do I apply it, and where can I research the info you gave me. One thing I can say a good mentor will make you self sufficient. I'm thankful to some good and not so good characters for sharing their experiences with me. More then anything mentor and protégé have to be dedicated and understand without direction anything can be expected. You want someone mentoring you that has been there and can guide you the direction your passion takes you. It can be stressful as is and the times I don't enjoy and how I bounce back as someone still learning reflect the most of my character as a dog man to me. Steely you gave up a lot and with that said you are in a better position than most started with. Frosty I got to give it to you you have pushed me myself plenty of times to think for years and still pushing me to get better. Sometimes the game itself and just going get the experience is your best mentor when no one is there to be hands on. My will to be better and to honestly look over my yard and say I honestly built this barnone is what drives me. You have to be dedicated and driven to some degree to be mentored by anybody. No use mentoring someone who's never going to use it. Mentors get discouraged too cause they get so many hang around till I get in and get a dog to peddle types that they shut out plenty. It all depend on both individuals overall. As another good dog man told me it takes a certain type of person to be a dog man. Not many have it. The heart or drive to simply do what it takes let alone be game themselves for the long haul.

[Millerman]

I have to say I am one that asks questions and have learn from quite a few. My mentoring was more ask the questions of good Dogmen they know you know the answer to and take from there experience. Just cause I was TOLD the answer before wasn't satisfying. I want to know why I'm doing something, when does this apply, what should I look for, how do I apply it, and where can I research the info you gave me. One thing I can say a good mentor will make you self sufficient. I'm thankful to some good and not so good characters for sharing their experiences with me. More then anything mentor and protégé have to be dedicated and understand without direction anything can be expected. You want someone mentoring you that has been there and can guide you the direction your passion takes you. It can be stressful as is and the times I don't enjoy and how I bounce back as someone still learning reflect the most of my character as a dog man to me. Steely you gave up a lot and with that said you are in a better position than most started with. Frosty I got to give it to you you have pushed me myself plenty of times to think for years and still pushing me to get better. Sometimes the game itself and just going get the experience is your best mentor when no one is there to be hands on. My will to be better and to honestly look over my yard and say I honestly built this barnone is what drives me. You have to be dedicated and driven to some degree to be mentored by anybody. No use mentoring someone who's never going to use it. Mentors get discouraged too cause they get so many hang around till I get in and get a dog to peddle types that they shut out plenty. It all depend on both individuals overall. As another good dog man told me it takes a certain type of person to be a dog man. Not many have it. The heart or drive to simply do what it takes let alone be game themselves for the long haul.

You are a 100% right by saying that it takes two to make the mentorship work. I personal do believe that the lack of mentorship has us in the state of turmoil that we are in. More now than ever do we need our veterans to lead us down the right path.

I am in my mid thirties and some of the stuff I hear and see really makes me feel like I came from a different time zone but I am not to much older than some of the goobers. One of the biggest problems is that the last couple generations of dogman can not handle constructive criticism so with that being said you have Tom, Dick and Harry thinking that they don't need any help and can do it all on there own and change the dog world as we know it and that is hurting us more than anything else.

So do I blame the older guys for not really wanting to help the young guns who don't really want to help themselves no, but we need are vets to stand strong and keep trying to past the torch to the ones who will listen. I was blessed to have two mentors that both had twenty years on me and boy did I ever get a good tong lashing for doing stupid stuff but they would give me the shirt off their back if it would help me to be a better dogman and that what's mentoring is all about helping someone to better themselves.

[EarlyBird]

Good discussion on mentors guys. I've been going thru hell trying to find a decent dogman/ mentor to learn from. I have some older guys I speak with on the phone now and then but that's bout it. I've been following jack since he was on PEDs giving advice and now I'm here enjoying the reads and post that you all discuss. From what I've been dealing I can agree and say that it is pretty difficult to "get-in" but I'm a fighter so no quitting here, I just wish I could get a break. With that being said I'm located in Louisiana so if anyone needs a good right hand I'm here.

[SteelyDan]

As someone who dropped their career, family, and friends to move cross country to be mentored I will say this... Most don't got what it takes. They speak of dedication then in the same breath prioritize things ahead of that which they supposedly want. You want a mentor... Make these dogs your highest priority above anything else. Make these dogs your religion so to speak. Do that and a mentor will soon follow. They've already dedicated a life time... You willing to show your ready to dedicate yours?

[Thunder98]

Most of the people I was around got me to liking the hounds and as I got in where I fitted I was able to gain value information,some are mentors and don't even know it. I have collected information from them over the years and used what was best for me. My brother and his friend were the most valuable resource for me. They soon let me know there was no such thing as a dumb question. I remember them showing me the pit bull gazette in 92 I believe with poncho on the cover, for some reason they already knew this dog would have an impact on the future of the breed whereas I had no clue. Nowadays honesty and dedication by both parties should make for a great team..jmo

[EarlyBird]

This game has already consumed me!! This is what I want!!

[Nut]

Nobody wants this. Its a lethal addiction. lol

[Pit Bull Committed]

My two cents...I am as dedicated as any greenhorn out there but to be honest you don't have to sacrifice everything for the dogs to make it work. I always believe in the saying..."there is no one way of doing something". I believe in having a strong family, healthy financial status , real friendships (don't have to be dogman), do my RESEARCH, a good dog program/setup (keep only a low quality number of dogs). Always looking for ways to improve my dogs, program/setup.

I do not believe in a total solo isolation in order to make things work. Sometimes it's good to have a moment away from the dog world. :)

[evolutionkennels]

Common sense goes a long way. A few rules for greenhorns

1. Love your dog
2. Be on his side.. Not against him.. That means paying forfeit when sick, never pushing weight, getting to the spot a few days before, getting bloodwork done cause they can't talk to tell you something wrong
3. Most people lose because they overwork the dog. Rest them.. They're not machines
4. Each dog is different.. Work them differently according to style. A defensive ear animal gonna need air and stamina, a barnstorming killer gonna need strength to do what he sees if he's a pusher.. Train them that way
5. Be smarter than the dog.... Hard for some people. Find out what the dog likes to work and build around that.

[Pit Bull Committed]

Common sense goes a long way. A few rules for greenhorns

1. Love your dog
2. Be on his side.. Not against him.. That means paying forfeit when sick, never pushing weight, getting to the spot a few days before, getting bloodwork done cause they can't talk to tell you something wrong
3. Most people lose because they overwork the dog. Rest them.. They're not machines
4. Each dog is different.. Work them differently according to style. A defensive ear animal gonna need air and stamina, a barnstorming killer gonna need strength to do what he sees if he's a pusher.. Train them that way
5. Be smarter than the dog.... Hard for some people. Find out what the dog likes to work and build around that.
:appl: :appl: :appl:

[Officially Retired]

Common sense goes a long way. A few rules for greenhorns

1. Love your dog
2. Be on his side.. Not against him.. That means paying forfeit when sick, never pushing weight, getting to the spot a few days before, getting bloodwork done cause they can't talk to tell you something wrong
3. Most people lose because they overwork the dog. Rest them.. They're not machines
4. Each dog is different.. Work them differently according to style. A defensive ear animal gonna need air and stamina, a barnstorming killer gonna need strength to do what he sees if he's a pusher.. Train them that way
5. Be smarter than the dog.... Hard for some people. Find out what the dog likes to work and build around that.


:appl: :appl: :appl:

:-bd

[EGK]

Truth

[FrostyPaws]

Common sense goes a long way. A few rules for greenhorns

1. Love your dog
2. Be on his side.. Not against him.. That means paying forfeit when sick, never pushing weight, getting to the spot a few days before, getting bloodwork done cause they can't talk to tell you something wrong
3. Most people lose because they overwork the dog. Rest them.. They're not machines
4. Each dog is different.. Work them differently according to style. A defensive ear animal gonna need air and stamina, a barnstorming killer gonna need strength to do what he sees if he's a pusher.. Train them that way
5. Be smarter than the dog.... Hard for some people. Find out what the dog likes to work and build around that.

I agree with most of this with the exception of 3 and 4.

It has been my experience that most people lose for one simple reason: Wrong Dog Syndrome. I think I can count the number of times on both hands I've known of them to lose due to being overworked. Most losses have been from one dog simply being better than the other. I would say I've seen more dogs not in the RIGHT shape, which leads to number 4.

Whether it be a defensive ear dog or a barnstorming killer, they're all going to need air/stamina. I've seen countless people work a barnstorming dog for strength and NOT work enough for the stamina end. Invariably, the strong dog doesn't have the endurance to carry the show longer when needed. Barnstorming dogs need to be worked twice as hard as most dogs simply for one reason: breakneck pace. If a man wants a dog to be able to go at a breakneck pace for any length of time, the dog has to be in the proper shape to sustain that, and if a man just centers on the dog's strength, he's going to invariably fail when he runs into something that's in better shape that he's not able to barnstorm into submission initially.

I personally think working a dog according to a style is setting the dog up for potential failure. If you're going to try and account for all possibilities, you have to account for running into a dog that possibly negates your style, or better yet, is BETTER at said style than your dog. If that is the case, and you've tried to work a dog according to it's style, it won't be in any proper shape to possibly change up and go into a different style for a sustained time if need be.

I can think of a certain Cottingham dog that had won a show or two that was really good as a defensive head animal. All I heard from the owner was how those dogs had such excellent air and stamina. He believed in conditioning for style also, and I posed a similar question to him. What happens if you run into a better head dog than you? Is your dog in the PROPER shape to go at it differently if need be? Invariably, his next time out, he DID run into a better dog, and the dog was bottom dog around 40 simply due to not being in the proper shape for a different change of pace. He was in shape to control the show, but he wasn't in the proper shape to play catch up and turn the tide.

How you work your dog, or why, is entirely up to you. I just feel if you work according to style, you're gonna be in more deep water than need be when you run into quality dogs and not quality men.

[EWO]

I like #2. I think if #2 is heeded then the rest sort of fall in order. Be with him and not against him covers an awful lot. Reading the dog during the work is vital. Identifying the need for rest is a struggle for a lot of people. I have always thought ( assuming we are working with a good dog ) missing on the over worked side is far more detrimental than coming in under worked.

I think every day is a different day, and every session is different than the last. An example, we start work at 6AM, and finish at 8AM. We have 22 hours to rest until we work again. Just for numbers sake, we need to work right up until the point where the 22 hours of rest and recuperation is enough. If he needs 23 hours and is not ready at 6AM, he was over worked. If he is ready to go 100% at 20 hours we could have worked a little more. These are just numbers, but that line can be very fine, hitting that mark is an art in itself. Hitting that mark day in and day out over 6-8 weeks creates separation from the rest.

Being with your dog means spending the time to learn this. I think #2 is a thread in itself. EWO

[apbtbbd91]

It seems impossible to find a mentor in my area

[Black Hand]

It seems impossible to find a mentor in my area

Then buy the Pitbull bible and whatever you can't learn from the book you'll just learn from your fuck ups.

[apbtbbd91]

I ordered it last week waiting for it to be printed thanks for the advice though