Head Shape and Bite?

[No Quarter Kennel]

Been thinking about his a lot lately. What are your thoughts?
A sprinter is typically longer than the average joe from the ankle to kneed and elbow to wrist and his waist is a bit higher than the common fellow of the same height.
A man with shorter arms can bench press a man of the same weight who has longer arms.
A thicker man can squat more wt than a skinny man of the same weight.

These are examples. OUTSIDE THE FREAKS AND EXCEPTIONS, what are your thoughts on the shape of the dog's head and his ability to bite? Not something I'm extremely focused on, but it's something I've been thinking about. A longer legged dog typically wrestles better than a short legged dog.

Head structure does play a role in the ability to bite or how hard. Is this something you guys consider?

I know there are a 100 other variables to consider, but when selecting stock to breed and many things being equal, what are your thoughts on head structure?

[EWO]

All the things you listed are really close to basic physics where one would get into fulcrum points, apexes and then spans into anatomical structure. Then scientifically one could say this dog should bite harder than that dog based on head structure, jaw length, scissor-ed bite, jaw muscle, and maybe even neck muscle. And as soon as we are onto something the exact opposite dog we are looking for will bite shit in half. Like your post said, lots of other variables, from the science of genetics down to the simple assumption is he biting as hard as he can in a particular situation.

So I can only respond to the post, not necessarily answer any questions. I think we can find some tendencies, maybe a little easier within a family/strain, but I doubt we can really nail anything down.

Great post. I too would like to hear the thoughts of others. EWO

[EWO]

All the things you listed are really close to basic physics where one would get into fulcrum points, apexes and then spans into anatomical structure. Then scientifically one could say this dog should bite harder than that dog based on head structure, jaw length, scissor-ed bite, jaw muscle, and maybe even neck muscle. And as soon as we are onto something the exact opposite dog we are looking for will bite shit in half. Like your post said, lots of other variables, from the science of genetics down to the simple assumption is he biting as hard as he can in a particular situation.

So I can only respond to the post, not necessarily answer any questions. I think we can find some tendencies, maybe a little easier within a family/strain, but I doubt we can really nail anything down.

Great post. I too would like to hear the thoughts of others. EWO

[CrazyRed]

I agree with you guys and like most things it either interests you or frustrates you with all the variables. I also after years learned about the unique differences of actual hard mouth. Because you really don't know how hard one is biting and also starts to depend where that dog is biting. A dog that hits soft tissue and opens it up and the hog bleeds out in 10, you would think wow that dog has some mouth killed him in 10. You would certainly think more of his mouth then the dog you hear killed a dog in 35, but you hear not only did he kill him but he killed him biting on the head. Also when should we rate the mouth, should we rate the mouth of dogs in their norm or when they are in shape. I know Kenny G liked dogs with smaller heads with not a long muzzle but not short compact neither shaped head and we know his dogs packed some punch. Me and a few friends still have some of these dogs around and I'll be damn but the dogs with those same type heads as Fargo tiny head, they seem to pack the most mouth. Also come with double sets of cutters and even seen a few that had 3 sets freaked me out a little. Now a friend who runs dogs opposite of Turtlebuster dogs likes dogs with small box heads not the big ones but small box heads with a short muzzle and his dogs have some of the best bite I've ever seen, they also wreck the chest and if they come to the face of a hog it's ugly. He also has some of the most driven dogs I've ever seen and beyond head size i think will plays a bigger part then people realize. Sorry for babbling guys

[EWO]

Agreed. Actual mouth can be hidden or over exemplified by bite location, as well as intent. Sometimes the intent of a dog defines him as a fighting dog or a killing dog. Some of the great finishers would throat check a dog and it takes little to "no mouth" to end one in quick fashion based solely on bite location. A winning head dog may very well do little damage in the chest of another. It is a lot like real estate, it is all about Location, Location, Location.

Determining mouth is difficult if the grade is based on the damage inflicted. Sort of like a lot of animal bites in humans. They bite and we jerk our hand out. Did the majority of the damage come from the bite or from the jerk? A lot say the jerk. Same with the dogs. A good jaw and neck muscle can take hold and go into a shaking flurry. Upon release the damage can be superficial to the skin or deep into the muscle. Did he bite into the deep tissue or did he bite and shake his way in? No real way to tell.

One of the reasons I have so much respect for the bitten dog continuing is once upon a time we were walking a dog and it got away. He went under a fence and hit a goat like a ton of bricks. Bit him right in the spinal area. After much explaining we had to buy the goat. We put him down and cut him up for the dogs. Upon skinning him the teeth marks in and around the spine were deep into tissue and seemed to round themselves out under the skin. The inside damage was far more severe than the outside damage. If you ever seen a deer shot thru the shoulder and see what lead shot does it is very similar. So for a dog to be bitten and continue is an amazing feat in itself. And this dog was a dog I did not consider a freak mouth dog. He bit hard but his forte was staying in the area for lengths of time not just bone crushing bites. EWO

[No Quarter Kennel]

Good points. The Hammonds stock comes, typically, slightly undershot. GH believed there is a much better holding ability with undershot dogs than scissor bite dogs. I agree. If you bit hard enough with a scissor bite, you will bite the nose OFF of the bull while an undershot jaw will fold and hold the nose. What do we want to do? STAY in hold or bite multiple times? Now, if you can literally bite the nose and other parts off, then by all means, scissors bite. HOWEVER, how many can bite THAT hard?

I believe the will plays a great role and along with excessive will sometimes, comes tremendous effort. With that, CAN, not always, but most times CAN exhaust a dog. Is this why hard biting dogs, in general, aren't as game as lines bred for other attributes? Of course I'm talking about lines or families bred exclusively FOR mouth.

You can have all the mechanical advantages in the world, but with no effort, it means nothing.
Without pace in accordance to your opponent and what it will take to win, comes burnout.
Winners are special.

[CYJ]

It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with it's overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

[evolutionkennels]

It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with his overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

Agreed

[EWO]

Well said, especially the bumble bee reference. The outwardly appearance can be misleading.

Just a side story. There is a local policeman here that is really over weight. Been a policeman here for maybe 30 years or more. When I was seventeen I had a school buddy who had a state record in the 100M and 110M hurdles. Kid could fly. He got into trouble and made a run for it. In a parking lot, with no obstacles or interferences he broke into a run. This fat cop, in fat cop shoes, ran him down over a 50 yard stretch. We had forgotten all about the transgression and the cause for the chase but we wore his hind end out in school on Monday. Moral to the story. Things are not always as they seem, and of course, never get caught by a fat cop in front of your friends. LOL. EWO





It is hard to get such dogs all the time. Sometimes the inbreeding pushes the dogs back to the heavier undershot bull dog type head. Which is O.K. if the head is not to large to the head body ratio. If backed by a powerful bull terrier body can still get the job done. I am not referring to a heavy under shot bulldog head. But a more blocker head like most of the Colby dogs had.

The type head I liked on a dog was the older Bull terrier wedge type head with the longer heavier muzzle and eyes more centered than spread apart. With a long neck, deep chested powerful bull terrier build and that rat tail swung down low. Not talking about those modern English Bull Terrier types like the Target dog.

Two examples on the head type I would prefer and body type would be dogs like CH Woodall's Weird Jack and CH Watt's Double Snort. Weird Jack at 44lbs chain weight and Watt's Double Snort at 40 lbs are really big boned athletic dogs for their show weight.

Mr. Hollingsworth foundation dogs were of this same type build. If I was buying a young dog or brood stock would prefer this type build if possible. Dogs like these with the longer neck, the longer muzzle and bull terrier wedge head. Can bite just as hard or harder than a under shot dog. They have that extra or longer reach that can enable them to get better holds or out of a bad hold.

Sort of the same benefits of the longer reach that one boxer has over the other. With all said though a Bumble Bee is not suppose to be able to fly with it's overly fat body and small wings. Yet it flies, and so with our dogs sometimes, with what ever head type they have. Put in proper shape many dogs that are not always built the best with a lot of heart can push on and win. Cheers

[No Quarter Kennel]

There are exceptions to all rules.
However, a fat cop, 99 out of 100 will not run down anyone, so we wouldn't breed for fat cops if we were breeding for track athletes would we.
That's kind of where I was going with this post.

[EWO]

Apologizing for going astray.

I have seen them bite and not bite from all shapes and structures. That was my point. I do not think there is a direct correlation between the two. Certain types of structures appear to be 'a biter' and certain types do not.

So that was the reasoning for the reference to the fat cop. He should have not been able to run this kid down and I based that on his outwardly appearance. Just like CYJ's reference to the bumble bee. Same with head structures. One dog will have the 'right' structure and absolutely bite shit in half and the next dog with the same head can't bite thru a biscuit. And the opposite is then true as well. A flat face, short muzzled dog with horrible teeth placement is a bone breaker.

So, no, I would not breed a fat cop if I were looking for an athlete in return. And on the same note I would not breed to a dog based on his head structure hoping that would lead to mouth. EWO

[CYJ]

Ditto EWO. Wrestling with a Fat woman is like riding a Moped. Is a lot of fun till someone sees you. LOL

[No Quarter Kennel]

CYJ - funny shit
Ewo - I agree. I think the biggest variable with something like bite is the effort of the animal which is not anatomical and one cannot measure.

Like most things with these dogs, I believe you'll typically get the average of the animals you concentrate on. So no matter how the head is shaped, if the majority of that line can bite, you'll probably get a biter. If they can't, you probably won't.

[No Quarter Kennel]

http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

[Limey Kennels]

Good points. The Hammonds stock comes, typically, slightly undershot. GH believed there is a much better holding ability with undershot dogs than scissor bite dogs. I agree. If you bit hard enough with a scissor bite, you will bite the nose OFF of the bull while an undershot jaw will fold and hold the nose. What do we want to do? STAY in hold or bite multiple times? Now, if you can literally bite the nose and other parts off, then by all means, scissors bite. HOWEVER, how many can bite THAT hard?

I believe the will plays a great role and along with excessive will sometimes, comes tremendous effort. With that, CAN, not always, but most times CAN exhaust a dog. Is this why hard biting dogs, in general, aren't as game as lines bred for other attributes? Of course I'm talking about lines or families bred exclusively FOR mouth.

You can have all the mechanical advantages in the world, but with no effort, it means nothing.
Without pace in accordance to your opponent and what it will take to win, comes burnout.
Winners are special.

Ferg In my world and history i have seen only a hand full of >>REAL<< hard mouthed dogs!!. most dogs labeld as hard mouthed dogs are dogs that take GOOD HOLDS and work them out properly!!!!!!!.
You will reconize A real hard mouthed dog when its n frond of you doing damage without efford that thussend sink in your brain at first. Most dogs with a good mouth wil show you there skull muscles and jaw muscles bulge up and some of them iven close there eyes while clamping douwn. however they bite as hard as they can. But that thussend mean they actualy can bite hard.

One of the hardest mouthed dogs we have seen was LK ch Candy aka Hammonds Black Angle out of Parkson x Litte Eve. SHE didnt show anything at al she whent on a high leg/ shoulder stifel head for a split second then come of of it and your mouth would fall open. needles to say the hogs she met where litterly crippeld in min.
her mouth was so extra ordenary that when on her back having no leverichs and only be able to use her mouth se inflikted the same carnige. without any efford.
I find Breeding for hard mouth redicules... as mouth 99 out of a 100 times dus NOT reproduce. i prefear a Holding dog above anything els mentiond !!. One That finds the right spot and be stuk in there like a alabama Tic!!.

Longest hold i ever seen(chest) lasted 1.01 and gues wat the show lasted 1.01!!!(scisor mouth). History has shown us that the laws of fisics ofthen do not aply when it comes to a knock out punsh ore hard mouth . Teoreticly a shorter muzzeld dog would be able to bite harder. But ofthen a short muzzel means a significend STOP on a high forhead.
witch teoreticly means Air flow restriction!! on the air intake.

witch means that the lung muscles need to work harder to suck in that air..... and sins our dogs Work with there mouths CLOSED (so far so for many a conditiong keep being used to work a dog) They need al the air intake they can get....... most hard mouthed dogs tire out quiker in there mouth department, as the jaw muscles are the shortest the dogs poseses and tire out quik. hens we CANT make there mouths stronger bij letting them work on the hide. infact this weakens the mouth. . so most hard mouthed dogs loose there bite force pretty quik!!... but can inflik seriues damage..

Best type of head fore great alround work to me is a Alligator type of head(im Biast) split scull muscle on top, rezenable long muzzle, witch can be a bit narrow on the bridge to be able to narrow the bite force on a smaal sirfes, insted of it being spred out over a larger sirfes. nice big noze with wide open nostrals and last but not least, less to NO stop between the muzzle and scull and a rezenable deep jaws...


breed them game and durable and that hard mouth wil come along ones in a while. Having said that The magic dog(two color pictures) had had a significan stop high forhead split scull Deep jaws over divelopt jaw muscles. he dindt shake would flip a uponden over put his full weight on them and dug in and would just scrape bite bite and non lasted longer then 15 min . It took 3 famely dogs one afther another including his own Father and son for 45 min to max him out,, however he was just tired!!. and did not had a mark on him.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Awesome Stuff D. I appreciate you sharing.

[Limey Kennels]

Your welcome ferg....

[Nut]

hens we CANT make there mouths stronger bij letting them work on the hide. infact this weakens the mouth. .

I think no serious person let his dog work the hide to make the mouth stronger, only train the jawmuscles to counteract acidification. if you dont overdo this, and stop 2-3 weeks in advance it shouldnt weaken the mouth..

[Limey Kennels]

to ad on the above post.The jaw muscles should NEVER be workt, they pump full with blood in no time. only thing you could ore should do is give them a chew bone ones in a while. Training tegnics from the past like spring pooling ore tug of war where mainly used (by those who knew) to get the kennel stress syndrome out of the dogs, together with rolating the dogs on diferend chain spots . these work ecsersizes dont build up anything at al. They are stamina drains and would not fit in a profesional conditioning program. Bij many a conditioner..

[Nut]

Ok, I must say i don't use the springpole or anything else. Just giving a kong for 30 minutes few days in the week, like Jack describes in his mill keep. But hearing this is new to me.


they pump full with blood in no time

And what does this mean for your dog?

[Limey Kennels]

You never notised how fast a dog gets windy hot and tired fooling around on a spring pool!?? prior ore afther workouts ore just taken of the chain... if you have wel then there is your awnser. it wil DRAIN your dogs build up stamina. its comon nolige to work your dog at 70% of his energy level.
The remaining 30% he/she needs to recuver. its like a engine of a new car . The durabilety is build in bij having the engine never be able to go over 70% of its performance. thats where the engine lives 10 years on. take the restrictions out and go full troutle at 100%and drive it like you stole it i wond last very long!!.
There is a BIG diferense in giving a dog a chewing bone where he can CHEW and use his jaw muscles in a compleat diferend way. ore have a dog keep full bite force on a hide!!.
You take a big ball of chewing gum and start working it with your jaws. Your jaw will tire out very quik. Now take a piece of cloth ore leather in your mouth and bite as hard as you can . You be sirpriced how fast you need to loose your bite.. Iven dogs that have a field day on a chewing bone start to runn hot and need to recuver befor they can go on chewing there bone.. So.They pump full with blood meens. that the jaw muscles just like your Biseps when working out get filled up to the max max pump . but when you keep working that muscle ore biseps you go past your pump, and weaken the muscle.

[skip11]

I don't think there is a conclusive direct correlation between head shapes and bite power. I recently got into bitework and dogsports and these GSD, Malinois and xMalinois that have more of a long and "skinny" head compared to bulldogs can bite super hard. Depending on the lines, many of these dogs also have a full and pushing bite. Whereas in bulldogs what I notice is that the ones with a real finish have a full and pushing bite. Many of em are perfectly fine having a half grip and work their holds.