View Full Version : Vise Grips Wild Red Rose
Jack were roses siblings "delilah" and "turbo" ever bred? If so how did their offspring do? And were these the only siblings of rose?
Also the breeding of poncho x rosey, and the breeding of thunder to rosey what were the overall similarities between these two breedings (seeing how the are pretty much three quarter siblings)
And finally would the two best overall producers of these two breedings be considered "Chase", and "Razor" like peds indicates?
Also any info on roses win if its not to much trouble.
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Don't know what happened to Delilah, as I lost contact with her owner, but she was the smartest, most athletic dog in the litter. (Should have kept her.)
Turbo was a slow, stupid, but pretty rough dog, who hit bleeders every time he was set down. He would always start behind ... he would always struggle to get a hold, and then (once he did get a hold) he would cripple the dog almost immediately and it would be over. After beating LA Dream Team's Blackie Boy, Turbo was brought in real light and just looked like $#!^ and quit to TVK's RE. He was given away as a pet and never bred.
There were two other brothers, Odin and Blockhead, that were awesome specimens and game as hell ... but I lost track with their owners.
Wild Red Rose won 1 for Leon and was a slow, stupid dog with heavy mouth like Turbo also ... but she was much gamer. I think she won in like :40-:50 and Leon told me she'd break legs at the elbow. In school, Rosey also broke the legs of the bitch who had Kitana picked up ...
I understand why you think Chase and Razor were the best producers from those respective litters, but they weren't, they were just two of the many good producers in that litter. As physical specimens and individuals go, Hornet & Whitehead were my favorite males in that litter, not Chase; Chase was actually the "last pick" of that litter. I don't think Chase was match-worthy, while his brother Whitehead went on to win in 1:20 but I lost track of him. Whitehead also won international BIS for his conformation. Hornet was also a physical specimen (before he got fat), but he was only bred once ... yet from his only breeding he produced Ch Mr. Serious ROM, Boots (another producer of Champions), and Mr. Cho (who died crawling DG at only 16 months when facing a Champion). IMO Mr. Serious was a better dog out of Hornet's only breeding than ever came out of Chase from many breedings. This is not to disrespect Chase, he was a game dog and good producer, but IMO he was a far cry from "the best" dog in that litter. He just got bred more.
Same with Razor. Razor was actually the "ugly duckling" in her litter compared to Sassy and Thunder Rose. However, I do think Razor was smarter and faster than they were. Razor was a super-bred bitch, just like the sisters, but what made her produce those dogs was also the fact she was bred to Hero. Hero was IMO the best (or one of the 2 best) males out of that litter, and so he played a vital role in the quality of that Ch Miagi / Ch Pierce litter too. Thunder Rose never got bred (as far as I know), but Sassy produced a badass dog named Leavenworth's Jasper 2xW bred to Waccamaw's Ch Yellow John, who lost his third only because he broke his jaw early on a freak collision ... but yet still went out screaming game in 1:10 to a dog he couldn't even mouth for the whole deal. He would be a Champion had that not happened. Sassy also produced PonchoBack 2xW who was an ace head dog, but who happened to face a devastating dog for #2 (that he beat) but whose mouth was so horrible he couldn't survive afterward, even from just a few bites. I am sure Kilo's Gorilla Girl would be tough to beat at her best weight also, but has never been done.
Lots of times fate (and who ends up with the dogs) determines whether they get matched or not, as well as what level of competition they face when they do go out.
Jack
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Thank you for the reply jack, very insightful. Wasn't trying to discredit any of these dogs either as they have ALL done great.
How many pups did zipper actually have? And could you tell me a little about her pups? How did roxanne compare to pup pup?
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 06:27 PM
Thank you for the reply jack, very insightful. Wasn't trying to discredit any of these dogs either as they have ALL done great.
How many pups did zipper actually have? And could you tell me a little about her pups? How did roxanne compare to pup pup?
I am not trying to discredit any of them either, just correcting the assumption you had that the dogs you mentioned were "the best"; they weren't.
Unfortunately, Zipper was the worst in the litter. I liked her intensity as a pup, but she came out long-bodied and unathletic. Pup Pup was a late-starting, average, game dog ... who made lousy moves ... but proved deeply-game regardless. My dogs almost never make bad moves, so I never really trusted Pup Pup's gameness, despite seeing it. He was NOTHING compared to Stormbringer, and really doesn't deserve to be in the same sentence with him. My gut feel proved correct, as every single dog off of Pup Pup either wouldn't start, or quit, which was a shame because Pup Pup was bred well "on paper."
Fittingly, Pup Pup had a brother named Iron Mike who never started and was put down. The sister Roxanne had a defective foot and was not very athletic at all either, so Zipper's percentages were horrible. (I don't know if this defective foot was genetic, or because of ricketts, because Leon's care wasn't the best). Anyway, when Leon went to jail and I got some of these dogs back, I tried going "out" and bred Zipper to Waccamaw's Bud, and I got a male named Buddy Boy, and (as far as I know) he never started either. So the worst one in that Poncho/Rosey litter was my Zipper bitch, who was actually game ... but who couldn't throw a first-class dog to save her life ... and who died young from eating metal, which (judging by her pups) was probably a good thing.
Zipper produced the worst, and lowest-percentage pocket of blood in the history of my yard and I I hate to say it but am glad it is gone :mrgreen:
Jack
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Thank you again, as this has been great info to read.
(And again I feel I should point out that it wasn't my personal assumption. Merely phrased it that way due to razor and chase being the only ones listed with POR, ROM on peds.)
so what became of bronco and igor?
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 06:42 PM
Thank you again, as this has been great info to read.
My pleasure :)
(And again I feel I should point out that it wasn't my personal assumption. Merely phrased it that way due to razor and chase being the only ones listed with POR, ROM on peds.)
Which means you assumed they were "the best" because of the titles on a pedigree :mrgreen:
The truth is, they could ALL produce way above average, except for Zipper.
Don't know what went wrong with her, but Zipper was just a dud, whereas every other dog in her litter produced phenomenally-good percentages.
Jack
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Icedogger
01-06-2012, 07:23 PM
So every dog off of Pup Pup didn't start or quit am I reading this right? So Painted Puppy? Lil Poncho? P'Cola ? all of them dogs where curs? Well I guess I cant say cur if they don't start is that the proper etiquette, Now I new Bolo was cold and I took a big chance getting a pup off him but he could produce from what I hear and what I know. This is a very disappoint ment to hear this about Pup Pup and the dogs he produced that's alot of dogs, well I no it's part of life. Just something for me to stop and think about is all came as a suprise to me, but thanks for the info.
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 07:30 PM
So every dog off of Pup Pup didn't start or quit am I reading this right? So Painted Puppy? Lil Poncho? P'Cola ? all of them dogs where curs? Well I guess I cant say cur if they don't start is that the proper etiquette, Now I new Bolo was cold and I took a big chance getting a pup off him but he could produce from what I hear and what I know. This is a very disappoint ment to hear this about Pup Pup and the dogs he produced that's alot of dogs, well I no it's part of life. Just something for me to stop and think about is all came as a suprise to me, but thanks for the info.
Painted Puppy did not quit, but his brothers Lightning and Jason quit. P'Cola was average but did not quit, as far as I know, however her sister was cold. And, yes, Bolo was cold ... and I told you this ... and, if I remember right, the main reason you bough his son was for the mere $300 price, and their history is why they were only $300. As I told you, I doubled-up on the game Pup Pup (and he was extremely game), and I did this to see what I would get as a breeding experiment. You say your dog is good, so it seems like the experiment worked.
It was simply the lowest percentage stuff I had, but a few were good.
Icedogger
01-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Can't say my dog is "good" but I will say this he is GREAT 100% without a doubt we have walked the walk and still able and willing! So yes the experiment did work. I beleive you have the price a little wrong, but that's ok that price wouldn't even wipe his ass these days. According to my records I payed 500 for him and you gave me a deal and sold me Tuscany for 400 which I'm also very happy with her ,don't get me twisted here I'm just saying it came to a suprise to me that every dog PUP PUP produced was cold or a curr but in reality that is not true at all it was just low percentages that is good to hear cause that is a big difference wouldn't you agree. I don't remember you telling me these things, but that was many years ago and hell I've been wrong once before :lol: But I love what I got and what there producing so far. I'm not complaining I'm just saying it came as a surpise.
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 08:01 PM
Can't say my dog is "good" but I will say this he is GREAT 100% without a doubt we have walked the walk and still able and willing! So yes the experiment did work. I beleive you have the price a little wrong, but that's ok that price wouldn't even wipe his ass these days. According to my records I payed 500 for him and you gave me a deal and sold me Tuscany for 400 which I'm also very happy with her ,don't get me twisted here I'm just saying it came to a suprise to me that every dog PUP PUP produced was cold or a curr but in reality that is not true at all it was just low percentages that is good to hear cause that is a big difference wouldn't you agree. I don't remember you telling me these things, but that was many years ago and hell I've been wrong once before :lol: But I love what I got and what there producing so far. I'm not complaining I'm just saying it came as a surpise.
Look, I am not going to argue with you, but all of these things were out in the open on my old board, same as they're in the open now. If you don't remember this, then that has more to do with your recollection and habits than anything else. Furthermore, a lot of the subsequent quits out of Pup Pup came after you bought your pup. Most of my dogs are prepotent as hell, Pup Pup sure was not.
Jack
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Icedogger
01-06-2012, 08:11 PM
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
So why were these the only breedings done with rosey?
FACE203
01-06-2012, 08:30 PM
Has the wrr blood been crossed/bred with the sb blood?
Officially Retired
01-06-2012, 08:36 PM
Yes, PonchoBack (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=273253) and his sister Gorilla Girl.
Good night :)
Officially Retired
01-07-2012, 04:40 AM
So why were these the only breedings done with rosey?
No, Rosey was sold to a guy as a pup, and he bred her to an Alligator dog I think, before I got her back. When I got her I bred her to Poncho, and then I sold her to Leon who bred her to Thunder and Stormbringer, and then she died of cancer by age 5.
Officially Retired
01-07-2012, 04:56 AM
so what became of bronco and igor?
Bronco was owned by SlimmDog and I don't know what happened to the dog when Slim went to jail.
Igor was owned by a (well, I will just let you fill-in the blank) in the northeast who told me Igor was a game bum. Time and again, I would get a call from this guy telling me Igor was "not match worthy" ... yet he stopped 1, 2, 3 of this guy's "good match dogs" after taking a beating. Igor was game as hell!
I suggested to this fool that he might want to re-consider what "a match dog" was, seeing as everything he liked kept quitting to Igor. So what does this genius do? He rolls Igor uphil 10 lb with a devastating dog who boke Igor down ... but still turned to a dead-game Igor, who kept trying his best, and the guy finally picked Igor up, but he couldn't be saved afterward.
Wow, I get hot thinking about this stuff, but anyway both Igor and Bronco were extremely game dogs that got wasted by their owners.
Jack
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FACE203
01-07-2012, 05:08 AM
gorilla girl to rose bud would be nice to tighten up sassy, in turn wrr... Has that been done or in the works, just wondering :D
Officially Retired
01-07-2012, 05:11 AM
gorilla girl to rose bud would be nice to tighten up sassy, in turn wrr... Has that been done or in the works, just wondering :D
I don't know if it's being planned, as they're not my dogs, but I do agree that would be a nice breeding.
There is also a bitch out there named Sassafras, off of Rocko x Sassy, that I am sure is a very good bitch.
great info jack most appreciated.
ponchday
01-20-2012, 10:32 PM
I had this one off wwr to Battendorf's Lil Drake. J&J's Ch. Buck http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/mo ... _id=217268 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=217268)
Officially Retired
01-21-2012, 04:23 AM
Did not know he was a Champion! Who did he beat?
But, wow, you can sure see the Rosey blood in him :mrgreen:
Shame on you for cropping those beautiful Hollingsworth ears though :evil:
Jack did any of your dogs bred down from Rosey, ever produce any kinked tails? The heavy Chase/Chita dogs seemed to produce them every so often, any ideas where this might of came from? Thanks......
Hell i just remembered Broke Tail! lol
ponchday
01-21-2012, 07:25 AM
He went into Lacras Kennel's Chamuco 2xw 1:45, Manriquez' Handsome 2xw :45, and for his Ch. Against Merino's Campeoncito 4xw 1:56, first 2 were in Baja Calif, the last one at Mexico D.F.
Officially Retired
01-21-2012, 07:54 AM
Jack did any of your dogs bred down from Rosey, ever produce any kinked tails? The heavy Chase/Chita dogs seemed to produce them every so often, any ideas where this might of came from? Thanks......
Hell i just remembered Broke Tail! lol
Yep!
And as a matter of fact, my little Amazon bitch (Silverback/BrickHouse) has a kinked tail :)
I will post photos later :mrgreen:
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He went into Lacras Kennel's Chamuco 2xw 1:45, Manriquez' Handsome 2xw :45, and for his Ch. Against Merino's Campeoncito 4xw 1:56, first 2 were in Baja Calif, the last one at Mexico D.F.
Wow, I sure would have liked to known about this dog when I had Sassy alive (Thunder/Rosey), that would have made a helluva double-Rosey breeding! Also, it is a shame that those CA boys didn't breed Sassy's sister (Miagi's mother) Razor to him as well.
Thank you for sharing this info 8-)
Cheers,
Jack
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