Kidney's

[Showcase]

I've been reading all the posts on animal conditioning, but I've not read anything about some of ways of keeping the life of the motor running ,(kidneys)!!! Are there people out there that still use the Buckthorn Extract i.e. Racers Choice to keep the kidneys flushed??? Thanks in advance for the responses...

[EWO]

Hydration is the first choice for saving the kidneys. The next is being on top of the 'dump' count. And third not 'over protein-ing or over supplementing. I personally have never used a product for the specific intent of flushing the kidney's. Maybe others have and I am interested in other's views. EWO

[BONEDADDY]

Showcase, Jack's book talks about proper feeding techniques. Do a little research on the net and you will know what adversely affects the kidneys on animals.

[FrostyPaws]

Nothing should hinder your dog's kidneys if they're normal functioning kidneys. If your dog has access to water, the kidneys should not have any issues. If you have a lazy, sedentary dog, it doesn't need excess protein. A working dog needs extra protein to repair muscle tissue, etc. Protein needs increase, you increase protein. Allow the dog to drink the water needed to help flush toxins from the body.

[Showcase]

Thanks for the responses, but wouldn't you gentlemen think with all the powder supplementation going in the animal that you should have something to help keep the kidneys flushed?

[Officially Retired]

Nothing should hinder your dog's kidneys if they're normal functioning kidneys. If your dog has access to water, the kidneys should not have any issues. If you have a lazy, sedentary dog, it doesn't need excess protein. A working dog needs extra protein to repair muscle tissue, etc. Protein needs increase, you increase protein. Allow the dog to drink the water needed to help flush toxins from the body.


I would say that the word "protein," by itself, needs to be examined ... and replaced with the highest-quality, most biologically-available protein possible :idea:

All proteins are not created equally as far as their usefulness goes ... some being easy on the dog to process ... others being very difficult to process at all ... which distinction is vital to understand why there are sometimes problems :idea:

For example, if your dog is struggling with a lot of work, isn't being given enough water, and is being fed cheap kibble where "corn gluten" is the source of protein, then he is going to get kidney problems ... 1) because he's dehydrated (which EWO pointed out is the #1 problem), and 2) whatever protein the dog *is* getting, SUCKS!, isn't easily-processed by the dog, which also causes his kidneys to work hard. [This can also be true for those super-high-protein "grain-free" kibbles (like Innova Evo) which also cause dehydration.]

By contrast, if your dog is doing a lot of work, has plenty of water, and is eating a RAW diet of chicken, egg proteins, and even easily-digested protein supplements ... then he should have NO kidney problems at all.

Jack
.

[drz]

Anyone here use K-Ease and what do think of it?

[ragedog10]

With all the know it all' s on this board and all we can get is six post leads me to believe most can quote from text but very few have went at it first hand experience!!!!

[evolutionkennels]

I would say that the word "protein," by itself, needs to be examined ... and replaced with the highest-quality, most biologically-available protein possible :idea:

All proteins are not created equally as far as their usefulness goes ... some being easy on the dog to process ... others being very difficult to process at all ... which distinction is vital to understand why there are sometimes problems :idea:

For example, if your dog is struggling with a lot of work, isn't being given enough water, and is being fed cheap kibble where "corn gluten" is the source of protein, then he is going to get kidney problems ... 1) because he's dehydrated (which EWO pointed out is the #1 problem), and 2) whatever protein the dog *is* getting, SUCKS!, isn't easily-processed by the dog, which also causes his kidneys to work hard. [This can also be true for those super-high-protein "grain-free" kibbles (like Innova Evo) which also cause dehydration.]

By contrast, if your dog is doing a lot of work, has plenty of water, and is eating a RAW diet of chicken, egg proteins, and even easily-digested protein supplements ... then he should have NO kidney problems at all.

Jack
.

I agree. Common sense goes a long way. I determine the quality of kibble by how much water they drink while on it. The BEST.... NATURES VARIETY VENISON & LAMB WITH RAW BOOST. They drink almost zero water to process it. "almost" like raw. The worst.. Orijen.... Also... NVRBWV&L is the only food I've ever fed where the pregnant and nursing bitch doesn't lose any hair.

[evolutionkennels]

Thanks for the responses, but wouldn't you gentlemen think with all the powder supplementation going in the animal that you should have something to help keep the kidneys flushed?

No, powder or vitamin or steroid, none of that shit matters if your dog has access to all the fresh water it wants. The mistake people make is to cut water during the keep. Never cut water. Furthermore, I always believed in bringing a dog one pound in waterweight over his dried out pit weight. TThat way he has enough water to allow him to work during the show. Some idiots are like.... My dogs kidneys shut down after the show.... I say.. They sure did. It's also smart to have Lasix on hand after the show as part of the recovery, along with solu delta and an iv bag.

[Nut]

I agree. Common sense goes a long way. I determine the quality of kibble by how much water they drink while on it. The BEST.... NATURES VARIETY VENISON & LAMB WITH RAW BOOST. They drink almost zero water to process it. "almost" like raw. The worst.. Orijen.... Also... NVRBWV&L is the only food I've ever fed where the pregnant and nursing bitch doesn't lose any hair.

So u value orijen as worst quality because they drink the most water on it. Doesnt that have to do with the % of protein in ratio to other kibbles.

[evolutionkennels]

It's the worst of all the quality feeds. The NV better

[Nut]

Iv tried it and i didn't like it, gave em soft somewhat greenish shit on regional red.

[Macker]

Judging by the comments here most of you guys leave your dog's with fresh water for the most of the keep and this is the dog's only source of fluids during the keep??? Excuse me if I've taken you guys up wrong, just trying to read between the lines here, the original question referred to the conditioning of an animal.

[FrostyPaws]

No, powder or vitamin or steroid, none of that shit matters if your dog has access to all the fresh water it wants. The mistake people make is to cut water during the keep. Never cut water. Furthermore, I always believed in bringing a dog one pound in waterweight over his dried out pit weight. TThat way he has enough water to allow him to work during the show. Some idiots are like.... My dogs kidneys shut down after the show.... I say.. They sure did. It's also smart to have Lasix on hand after the show as part of the recovery, along with solu delta and an iv bag.

Kidneys shut down afterwards mainly because of Rhabdomyolysis (http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000473.htm). The amount of water the dog has during a show naturally depletes as the show continues on due to fluid volume loss. While Solu Delta (or any type of anti-shock agent) is supremely important, even more important are the fluids as that is what will flush the kidneys to possibly reverse and save the kidneys from Rhabdo.

[Black Hand]

Yeah if there was lot of damage it can hurt the animal internally.

[evolutionkennels]

Kidneys shut down due afterwards mainly because of rhabdomyolysishttp://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000473.htm


yup

[FrostyPaws]

Judging by the comments here most of you guys leave your dog's with fresh water for the most of the keep and this is the dog's only source of fluids during the keep??? Excuse me if I've taken you guys up wrong, just trying to read between the lines here, the original question referred to the conditioning of an animal.

Macker, I don't leave my dogs with fresh water for most of the keep. They have fresh water the first 2-3 weeks of their keep, and afterwards the water they have is the water I give them during feeding time and whatever they get the next morning. That way I prevent excess water intake at inappropriate times, and I'm not battling excess weight. My dogs are isolated from the others, so excessive foolishness doesn't come into play, which in turn, has them drinking excessive water. If you give your dog 1oz of water per pound of weight, the dog will have plenty of water to drink everyday. You can give it all at once after work, or you can split it in half by giving half that night and half the next morning. Either way, that will be plenty of water for your dog throughout the keep everyday.

[Nut]

Can one of you explain what role solu delta cortef plays in fluid loss/ kidney shutdown.

[FrostyPaws]

None. Solu Delta Cortef is for shock purposes.

[Macker]

That's interesting frosty, I leave the dog with fresh water for more or less the whole keep, I only control the fresh water in the last week, that's when I take any excess fluids off the dog and fine tune the weight. And are you giving anything to help keep the kidneys flushed?

[Nut]

None. Solu Delta Cortef is for shock purposes.

Thanks, thats why i wondered that it was mentioned.

[Nut]

I've copied Frosty's method and im happy with it. That's plenty of water, i give a little less, and all at once 30 min after training.

When u just leave the dogs with fresh water, i find they don't drink enough to keep themselves hydrated for training. And when you add "some" water to the food, i found some dogs wouldn't touch their bowl. So better to give it all at once.

[FrostyPaws]

Macker, the water flushes the kidneys. You figure if a dog gets 32oz of water, that's 2lbs of water everyday. When the dog isn't working, he's laid up resting. The dog's body gets rid of the excess water throughout the day. You also have to take into account the body's ability to make metabolic water throughout the day from the processing of energy. So the kidneys are fine unless there is previous kidney damage.

[Macker]

Ok, it's just your initial posts was asking what people are giving supplements to help keep the kidneys flushed so I just wondered if you where giving anything yourself?? Like I say I leave them with fresh water as well as giving broth with a supplement to help kidney function once a day, that's just the way I learned to do it but I am interested by your method.

[FrostyPaws]

Toxins are released in the body throughout the door. That amount increases during and after work. The water at feeding time helps to flush all that out initially. Since it's so much water to give in one feeding (or 2 if you desire), the excess water continues to flush the kidneys when urination occurs. Couple that with the metabolic water the body produces anyway, and you have a little extra water flushing right alongside the water given in the feed.

[Officially Retired]

My only trouble with "all the water at once with the food" methodology is the fact that it's an overload of everything at once.

Say the dog eats X amount of food, then the dog's digestive juices go to work trying to break down and process that food.

Left alone, the dog's digestive juices are already challenged when in optimal concentration to try to do so :idea:

However, with the influx of an assload of water on top of that, all at once, those stomach juices become diluted :-t

Giving the dog all the food at once, by itself, is a challenge for the dog to digest completely and properly, but there is no way this can happen with the total dilution of these digestive acids with a day's worth of water on top of it.

No way.

Jack

[Nut]

I feed kibbles at the moment. I will let it soak in all the water (warmed up, not hot) for 30-60 minutes before feeding. It makes it more easy to digest.
When u add all that water, and you let your dog empty after 2 hours, you will see he will piss out a river already. So it's not like the food is swimming in all that water all the time.

Dogs are able to perform/train hard. So whether its optimal for digestion is questionable but i dont notice any problems in practice

[Officially Retired]

All that water, added to all that food, is simply not optimal for for digestion.

It is done for "human convenience," and for an element of control, not for any other reason.

[WHISPERS]

I break it down in two parts, Jack. Lets say the dog is getting 1.5lbs feed and a cup and a half water all at once at feed time and then weigh. In two to three hrs I will let him/her out to urinate and put em bck in the crate for the night. In the morning, when we empty out, we might lose 10-18oz of piss n shit. After the workout I will offer another cup and a half of water. Depending on what stage of keep we're in he/she may or may not drink it all. So what do you do when he/she begins to stop drinking the water towards the end of the keep if you dont give it all with the feed? Do you think that when they start to not want the water this could be a cause for some dogs kidneys failing afterwards?

[FrostyPaws]

High intensity exercise tends to increase stomach acids used in the digestion of food. Adding all the water at one sitting May or may not be optimum. I know it doesn't hurt anything, and I didn't see any significant differences when splitting water into 2 separate feedings.