redboy dogs

[Emmit Mccaskel]

Just wanted to get opinions on boomer rom dogs. And if you had sny how were they.

[ragedog10]

I like em as a out. Have these like em alot. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=24273

[CYJ]

I really like the breeding on that Back Street Truez Snake girl. Good bred dogs you have there. I would be surprised if you told me the Snake Girl did not have a hard mouth. Cheers

[ragedog10]

I really like the breeding on that Back Street Truez Snake girl. Good bred dogs you have there. I would be surprised if you told me the Snake Girl did not have a hard mouth. Cheers I see you know a lot about the V.J stuff have a buddy whom use it with the Vietnam lil spike stuff was thinking about adding some of it to the backstreet truez bitch we have!

[CYJ]

Emmitt are you referring to Cottingham's Boomer? There is someone I talk with that should know those dogs well. Called this evening but caught me in the middle of watching my favorite TV series Once upon a time. May call be back later this week. Will ask if I do not forget to. Cheers

[Emmit Mccaskel]

Sami the Arabs boomer. Pit island kennels

[bently]

Me and my buddy went up north to get 2 right off of boomer and 1off of boomer jr. Neither off of boomer made the cut. The boomer jr male was ok and also had a pretty nice mouth on him as we'll. but personally I had better success with the haymaker dogs in my time. Just my experience with them. Might be different for someone else

[ragedog10]

No i agree the Hap / Haymaker Holland type dogs i always liked better.

[Emmit Mccaskel]

Thanks for the advice fellas

[CYJ]

One of our members Wrap Em Up. Has just made a heavy Holland breeding. The article and pedigree was just posted last week. Check with that breeder. Cheers

[BKNGAME]

My Buddy has an inbred "Sami" BOOMER male bt I LOVE MY Bingo/Haymaker blood hasn't let me down yet
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=23524

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=23580

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=403104

[evolutionkennels]

Like Doug the best

[cdj396]

you liked the right one JUDGE'S BUCK put some good one's on the ground thanks tj

[evolutionkennels]

I've heard good

[Wise]

Nothing wrong with those dogs at all, they outcross well. Even a few o the pure ones get down. Most don't like the prices or his pretty peds so they hate on his dogs without ever owning one or enough of em to really say so. Wouldn't part with the bitch i have.

[FrostyPaws]

I don't know about most people hating on Boomer dogs, but dogs generally earn a bad reputation for a few reasons. The owner himself and his practices, the amount of times a stud has been bred, and the dogs off him.

I personally don't like Boomer dogs, based on the opinions of others I trust for those reasons. They're all in the tri-state area and have seen a lot more Boomer dogs than I ever will, and they've probably seen more than everyone here on this thread. I have a few pups with some Boomer blood in them, so I'll have a little something to go on with these to see what they've added or taken away from what I already have here.

[cdj396]

I like the MIMS ,HAYMAKER KATIE MARLOWE DOGS

[Wise]

I just like how the red boy line has taken so many paths and branched off into lines within the line. You can go Boomer, or hunterr red, Deacon, Cottingham, Tants stuff, mims, bailey stuff, etc etc. All the same but different.

[cdj396]

ALL THE SAME BUT SOME BETTER

[Wise]

.....and when you breed your dog, be it to a boomer dog or whatever else lets not forget the pups get 50% from each parent so as far as them adding or taking away from your program is bit of a twisted statement. If one doesn't think they are improving when making a breeding what's the point of making it at all?

[Officially Retired]

I have to add my $0.02 here on the subject of these dogs. I realize that it is a popular bloodline, and I am sure it has been with good reason, but honestly I never been able to share the excitement about the Redboy dogs as so many others have. Neither as a beginner nor as a 20-year veteran.

Back when I first got in, longtime Redboy breeder Tony Robinson (of Apache (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8885) and Crusher (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15089) fame -- who owned Truman/Trinx' brother Bodine (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=669)--as well as a couple other Hollingsworth dogs--which is why I called him) told me directly, "Jack (the Hollingsworth dogs) are even gamer than my Redboy dogs.") So I never bothered to get into them, as I didn't see any reason to demote what I had. And, over the years, everything I have personally ever seen (or heard about), when facing my own dogs, confirms my initial impression.

Believe me, I am well aware of all the great dogs that have come down from this line. I am well aware that these Redboy dogs are supposedly bred for gameness. However, I can only speak from my own experience and (I am not trying to brag, but) every single cross I have ever seen (or gone into) has quit to my stuff. Every single one, except a lone individual dog many years ago (Garrett's Spike (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37460)) who died DG to Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526) in :48. The rest have all quit, including a daughter of Ch Bozack (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4850) who quit to Zukill's sister Volcha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7533) in 2:12. (I don't know what the bottom side was of the bitch, exactly, but I believe it too was Redboy, possibly Termite / Triple-Ott Red).

This also includes my Pretty Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10137) dog, whose first fight was over a Jeep/Redboy mix, bred by Rockbottom and G. Long, shown by M. Pinkerton. I don't know the exact breeding, but these are all topnotch guys who are behind the "who's who" of the Jeep/Reboy cross (Long's Werdo/Pinky, etc.). Yet their dog couldn't whip Pretty Boy (who was only 16 months old at the time) and conditioned by a rank beginner. Yes, the contest went 2:42, but Pretty Boy was a mediocre dog at best (though deeply game), and this Jeep/Redboy dog finally quit to him. Again, so much for legendary gameness.

In the meantime, I have rolled into several supposedly badass "battle crosses" involving this blood. My Sun Demon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1970) dog stopped Holland's Smuggler (1xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37463) in :40, and U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540) stopped Smuggler's brother in less time. What made it more embarrassing is that Sun Demon was hog-fat coming off the chain into a conditioned dog ... and was the bottom dog all the way ... until the last :05 ... which is when Smuggler quit (the moment he got tired also and fell behind) ... while Sun Demon had been gasping for breath and was bottom dog the entire time ... and had only got to his feet for :05. Meanwhile, U-Nhan-Rha was 3 lb lighter than his opponent and kicked that dog's ass the entire time. Again, there was not a drop of "legendary gameness" that I saw (except, of course, once again from my dogs).

In other rolls, my Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152) dog absolutely decimated some sort of Redboy/L.G. battlecross (I don't remember the exact breeding, but it was clean and topnotch), as did Ms. Bobbi (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=984) who decimated another Redboy/L.G. "battle cross," bred similarly. In both cases, my dogs were smaller, and in both cases these "battle crosses" had to be picked up in :12 or less, neither wanting anymore of what they were getting. So, again, it's not like there was a tit-for-tat going on, where sometimes mine lost/quit, sometimes they won ... it was mine always won, the others always quit (or were picked up looking bad).

In another actual contest that I remember clearly, my PonchoBack (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=177) dog stopped another absolutely topnotch cross utilizing this blood, UWK's My Man (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7523) (brother to Gr Ch Rose Red) in 2:36. Yes it went 2:36, yes both dogs were truly superior animals, but yes again the Redboy-mix QUIT to my dog. The only absolute gameness that was displayed once again came from one of mine.

I even tried to incorporate this blood into my program, seeing how my dogs would "mix" with this blood, when I bred Cadillac III to Perfect (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=4879). The result was not some new "grand slam" iconic breeding, but rather the typical mixed result that most people get when the mix dogs together. Only two pups lived: Polar Ice (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37469) grew up to be a game, rough dog ... while Red Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37470) supposedly turned out to be a short-winded cur. I was batting 50% which is not good news IMO.

You see, when I bred that same bitch Perfect to U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=6073), I got an all-game litter, including a Champion and a 2xW, 1xGL, and in this litter the other dogs in the litter all were fast, game, and talented. By contrast, when bred to Cadillac III, both dogs were slow and ponderous: one was slow, ponderous, but game and rough ... while the other was slow, ponderous, short-winded, and not game. As a matter of fact, one of the sons of U-Nhan-Rha/Perfect, Ch Red Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=5378), defeated yet another Redboy dog, a son of Ch Bear (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8503), for #2, also stopping him in under an hour.

The last battle between my stuff and the Redboy blood occurred toward the end of last year, when Prime Ape (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=25429) came from way back to beat some Eli/Redboy cross (where I don't know the exact breeding either), who (like the "My Man" dog that PonchoBack beat) was also devastating ... but who, ultimately, was neither fast enough, smart enough, nor game enough to hang with one of mine till the bitter end.

So, I am sorry to step on anyone's toes, but I personally just can't get excited when I see that stuff in a pedigree. To me, these dogs lower intelligence and diminish speed. They are not very bright and they're not very fast, at least not the ones I have seen, and these are two of the primary assets I personally breed for that distinguish my dogs from most other lines. To make things worse, the level of gameness that they supposedly add may be a bonus to some lines, but it is actually a demotion to the consistent level of gameness in my line. The only truly positive thing I have seen out of these dogs is they tend to throw a rather large frame, and (when crossed) they seem to throw the potential for a pretty heavy mouth. But I have never seen a single individual that I would call either very fast or very smart ... or (I hate to say it) very game. Not compared to my dogs they're not.

Maybe I have just been "unlucky" in the individuals I have seen (or that my dogs have gone into) ... but that "lack of luck" has happened too many different times, mixed-up too many different ways, for me to ever want to incorporate it in my yard (if I ever decided to breed dogs again).

I am not talking shit; I am just stating what I have directly seen or heard about from reliable sources in actual contests. I am fully aware that I have not seen them all and that there are some truly great dogs of this line, but I honestly don't think they're as high percentage as what people hope them to be. Not by a longshot.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Duly noted. I on the other hand have had remarkable success breeding the redboy jocko line into the Buck Hollingsworth line. The original macho was one of the best I ever saw, machobuck won his first at 14, third fourth and 5th within a 14 week period traveling 24 hours to NC twice. However, I did cautiously select the rbj stuff from only daisy Mae rom, and awesome baby rom. Do keep in mind as well. You had quite a bit of good dogs from the Katana Poncho cross, and I believe she had a fair amount of rbj.

[Officially Retired]

Duly noted. I on the other hand have had remarkable success breeding the redboy jocko line into the Buck Hollingsworth line.

Duly noted backatcha :)

It is my opinion that the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs, as well as the "magic mix" of Jocko, added something to the Redboy dogs.

In other words, the athleticism is not coming from the Redboy blood IMHO.

Some of them are absolutely beautiful dogs, but they are slow IMO and I haven't seen any pure specimens that I would consider either fast or intelligent.
(Not saying there aren't any, I just haven't seen any, and I have seen alot of them.)




The original macho was one of the best I ever saw, machobuck won his first at 14, third fourth and 5th within a 14 week period traveling 24 hours to NC twice. However, I did cautiously select the rbj stuff from only daisy Mae rom, and awesome baby rom.

Again, the Hollingsworth/Buck blood behind Macho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1653) is, IMO, a massive part of the success of that dog (along with "that magic mix" of the Jocko blood).

No one can question Gr Ch Machobuck (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=327) either, who not only was a great performer and producer, but one of the most incredible-looking dogs I have ever seen as well. I mean, he was just a specimen :exclamation:

Pedigree-wise, however, Machobuck was 50% Buck/Hollingsworth which (again) I think is the most consistently-game blood on planet earth. There is also something to the Yellow (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=111) blood, that RBJ mix in particular, which likewise was magic ... and so too with the Buck/Hollingsworth dogs added to it in particular. Daisy Mae and Awesome Baby are both great producers, no doubt, but I have never seen any of that blood, that I liked personally, unless it had a massive amount of Buck/Hollingsworth in it (as yours did).

My beef was with "pure Redboy" dogs, and other Redboy crosses in general (without the Buck/Hollingsworth influence).
They just have not impressed me, nor done well against my dogs ... this includes several rolls with some legendary dogmen ... to lots of matches, many at the absolute highest level the sport offers ... the result is invariably the same: my dogs win and those dogs quit.

But sure, if you add my favorite blood in the world to it, (Buck/Hollingsworth/my stuff) I think the gameness/athleticism/smarts goes WAY up.
Athleticism and smarts in particular.

I am also not talking giving a thumbs-down Yellow dogs, as I have seen some very badass members of this group also.
Yet, here again, the ability and power I personally attribute to the Jocko in the pedigree + the fact that it just happens to click in a special way.

It's the pure Redboy dogs (and non-Buck/Hollingsworth crosses) that unfortunately do nothing for me. Still, I am sure there are those I have not seen that I would think are, in fact, quite awesome.




Do keep in mind as well. You had quite a bit of good dogs from the Katana Poncho cross, and I believe she had a fair amount of rbj.

Good point, but again Kitana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=169) was heavy Hollingsworth, on top of which I think Yellow *did* add some desirable traits that the Hollingsworth blood lacked. Also, even though Poncho himself was not devastating, his two sisters remain the hardest-mouthed bitches I have ever bred, Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3) in particular, who fractured the muzzle/skull of every bitch she got her mouth on, until the slightly-bigger Screamer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=221) broke her leg when Missy was 7 years of age and the 2-lb bigger Screamer was in her prime. So I am not altogether sure the devastating offspring was just because of Kitana.

Also, Kitana was a 52 lb chainweight bitch ... but she was picked up to another big bitch ... which Wild Red Rose (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=674) later stopped (and broke her leg) spotting this bitch 4 lb of weight ...

Still, there is no question that the Poncho/Kitana breeding produced an awesome, high-percentage litter ... where every dog was game, except one ... Murder (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=34450) ... who still beat a 6xW and a 1xW before he quit ... and that was to some freak mouthed dog whose trick was to amputate front paws (he would shake/bite so hard when he got there). I am not ashamed of any dog that can beat a Grand Champion + another winner and who only curs to something way out of the ordinary.

So good post,

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Interesting. Yeah.. Good valid points. I've never had experience but for one. Ch. DINGO WAS A MURDEROUS hard scratching ace. Not sure if it's on here but he was off Yellow III and Low country 's Spice.. A pure rascal gyp out of pure rebel kennels stock. Similarily, Yellow II produced Ch. CRYBABY with Consuela. I really liked every dog I saw roll of Yellow II. In my opinion he was the best producing son of Yellow, but wasn't managed correctly. Frank Jacobs agreed with you. He said that the Redboy-Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit without the ability and styful finish that Jocko brought to the table. Others say the Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit if not for redboy gameness. I can agree with both. The latter statement holds true to Jeep Redboy dogs as well. But I will say. IN MY OPINION, few can boast what the redboy jocko buck hollingsworth can. 1996,2002,2003,2004 sdj Doy. .. When the judge was Jack Kelly, and reputable honest men had to vouch for the animal, and when you got a star next to the show for beating an old timer. Just my thoughts. Not to take away from the Waccamaw strain which has stood the test of time, and I am looking to incorporate with my Bull semen.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=30021

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=26308

[FrostyPaws]

.....and when you breed your dog, be it to a boomer dog or whatever else lets not forget the pups get 50% from each parent so as far as them adding or taking away from your program is bit of a twisted statement. If one doesn't think they are improving when making a breeding what's the point of making it at all?

It's not a twisted statement at all if you already know what your dogs produce on an average basis, and you can compare/contrast that with other breedings done. As for the improvement question. I do my breedings with my dogs for improvement, but I can't make the same statement about other people's bitches. I don't generally get the chance to judge someone else's female, and unfortunately, I can't look at a pedigree of a dog and decipher where the improvement could possibly come from.

[FrostyPaws]

As someone that's owned Redboy crosses through my entire life in dogs, there is a lot of truth in what Jack says. There are so many of those dogs out there being bred without any rhyme or reason, that it tends to water it all down to a lot of nothing in a lot of cases. I've seen a ton of slow, dumb Redboy and/or Redboy/Jocko dogs along with an assortment of other Redboy crosses. One of the main reasons I never bred to Hunter Red, even when knowing the owners, is that the majority of dogs I saw off Hunter, or bred from him, were JUST like him. Even when Hunter was pushed back some generations, he was so prepotent that he was able to dominate the gene pool with a small influence.

A lot of the Redboy type dogs I have owned were never slow. They weren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, and that's one of the things I've always tried to correct over the years with the breedings I do. I've finally started making some headway to having dogs that, while they're not the Einstein of the dog world, they are a lot further along than they were at points some years ago. Generally, the stupid dogs get rid of themselves when they simply run into dogs that have more sense. So I've just tried to build off dogs with more sense. They are nowhere near what the image of Bolio dogs have, but they're climbing the ladder one step at a time.

A lot of people have the misconception that Redboy dogs, as a whole, are noted for gameness. Maybe at one time some years ago, you could say that when dogs were still relatively close to that particular individual. The Redboy dogs, as a whole, are probably only second to the Eli dogs to be the most peddled and heading down the road of ruination. It's hard for a popular line of dogs to be realistically known for something, especially gameness, when it's being pulled in every single direction and whim by every jerk off that fancies themselves the next person to change the game. If you want a line of dogs to be known for something, you have to breed for that something around dogs that have that something you're looking for. I know that's a rather simplistic statement, but that's the idea.

[evolutionkennels]

As someone that's owned Redboy crosses through my entire life in dogs, there is a lot of truth in what Jack says. There are so many of those dogs out there being bred without any rhyme or reason, that it tends to water it all down to a lot of nothing in a lot of cases. I've seen a ton of slow, dumb Redboy and/or Redboy/Jocko dogs along with an assortment of other Redboy crosses. One of the main reasons I never bred to Hunter Red, even when knowing the owners, is that the majority of dogs I saw off Hunter, or bred from him, were JUST like him. Even when Hunter was pushed back some generations, he was so prepotent that he was able to dominate the gene pool with a small influence.

A lot of the Redboy type dogs I have owned were never slow. They weren't always the sharpest tools in the shed, and that's one of the things I've always tried to correct over the years with the breedings I do. I've finally started making some headway to having dogs that, while they're not the Einstein of the dog world, they are a lot further along than they were at points some years ago. Generally, the stupid dogs get rid of themselves when they simply run into dogs that have more sense. So I've just tried to build off dogs with more sense. They are nowhere near what the image of Bolio dogs have, but they're climbing the ladder one step at a time.

A lot of people have the misconception that Redboy dogs, as a whole, are noted for gameness. Maybe at one time some years ago, you could say that when dogs were still relatively close to that particular individual. The Redboy dogs, as a whole, are probably only second to the Eli dogs to be the most peddled and heading down the road of ruination. It's hard for a popular line of dogs to be realistically known for something, especially gameness, when it's being pulled in every single direction and whim by every jerk off that fancies themselves the next person to change the game. If you want a line of dogs to be known for something, you have to breed for that something around dogs that have that something you're looking for. I know that's a rather simplistic statement, but that's the idea.

Well stated

[S_B]

X 2 :appl: @ Frostypaws

[Officially Retired]

X 3

I have seen people breed dogs of my own that I would neither keep/feed nor breed to either (or, also, breed to in that direction ...).

That kind of stupidity, replicated over time, can ruin anything.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Interesting. Yeah.. Good valid points. I've never had experience but for one. Ch. DINGO WAS A MURDEROUS hard scratching ace. Not sure if it's on here but he was off Yellow III and Low country 's Spice.. A pure rascal gyp out of pure rebel kennels stock. Similarily, Yellow II produced Ch. CRYBABY with Consuela. I really liked every dog I saw roll of Yellow II. In my opinion he was the best producing son of Yellow, but wasn't managed correctly. Frank Jacobs agreed with you. He said that the Redboy-Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit without the ability and styful finish that Jocko brought to the table. Others say the Jocko dogs wouldn't be shit if not for redboy gameness. I can agree with both. The latter statement holds true to Jeep Redboy dogs as well. But I will say. IN MY OPINION, few can boast what the redboy jocko buck hollingsworth can. 1996,2002,2003,2004 sdj Doy. .. When the judge was Jack Kelly, and reputable honest men had to vouch for the animal, and when you got a star next to the show for beating an old timer. Just my thoughts. Not to take away from the Waccamaw strain which has stood the test of time, and I am looking to incorporate with my Bull semen.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=30021

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=26308


Good post too.

I personally knew the Consuela bitch and Ch Crybaby. Crybaby seemed like a really eager, game dog to me.
There was a suggestion to roll Crybaby into Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=211), but it never happened, which is probably a good thing for Crybaby ... I could see him being willing to take his death to Stormy, but I can't see him whipping one side of him.

Jack

[Wise]

If im not mistaken on the cover of sdj 2002 august there is what was said to be recoreded as the longest match between two females at 4:40 BOTH bitches had redboy blood in them. Hooker red and Georgia girl. And if you look at the top spots on the ROM list Tab, Deacon,May day, yellow all have that blood in them too so i cant agree with the statement that they demote lines.

[Officially Retired]

If im not mistaken on the cover of sdj 2002 august there is what was said to be recoreded as the longest match between two females at 4:40 BOTH bitches had redboy blood in them. Hooker red and Georgia girl.

You are mistaken (50%).

The dog who won, Georgia Girl (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4364), was a heavy Hollingsworth bitch (3/4 Dolly/Polly on top), with Heavy Nigerino + a lil Chinaman on bottom. She was only 6% Redboy. The Hollignsworth/Chinaman dogs have done awesome too.

The dog who lost, Hooker Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=20953), was indeed heavy Redboy, so you're right about that. But I do believe she was the one who eventually quit the the Hollingsworth cross, so please re-visit my first post about what Tony Robinson said about the Hollignsworth dogs vs. the Redboy dogs ...




And if you look at the top spots on the ROM list Tab, Deacon,May day, yellow all have that blood in them too so i cant agree with the statement that they demote lines.

:-t You either didn't really read what I said to Evo, or you have trouble with comprehending what you read, but I already addressed the issue of Yellow/Mayday, etc.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4364

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=20953

Seriously,

This is splitting hairs. I guarantee you many bloodlines out there wish they've seen 4:40. It's a tribute to both bloodlines. MY OPINION, Bolio Tombstone adds extreme gameness, ability, durability, and front end finish (throat), face crunches, redboy jocko adds very good air, extreme gameness, thick skin, back end finish (styful), and find a way to win plan b and c dogs. Point is they both are a great line of bulldogs, which is why I base my yard on half from each. If I had to choose, it'd be a hard decision. I personally think my dogs take more after the Bolio tombstone lines, but I won't downplay the relevance of rbj blood as it is half of my genetic contribution.

Putting aside the numerous champions Gr. Ch. Yellow produced, and they are many. The forgotten breeding was the Yellow John x greens Sandy breeding, Produced Gr. Ch. John boy, Ch. Toro,, greens hitman 2x, and super gnats boots.. Who went 4:52 in his second beating the time of both aforementioned candidates. Anyhow, when it comes to these two lines, in my opinion... The two are the two very best. Rank em how you want

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_offspring.php?dog_id=423&sex_id=3

[Officially Retired]

Seriously,
This is splitting hairs. I guarantee you many bloodlines out there wish they've seen 4:40. It's a tribute to both bloodlines.

Agree it's a tribute to both lines; I also believe splitting hairs (like splitting atoms) is sometimes necessary ... and can likewise sometimes be explosive :lol:




Seriously,
MY OPINION, Bolio Tombstone adds extreme gameness, ability, durability, and front end finish (throat), face crunches, redboy jocko adds very good air, extreme gameness, thick skin, back end finish (styful), and find a way to win plan b and c dogs.

I actually believe more hair-splitting is necessary :idea:

I think most Bolio/Tombstone dogs are thin-boned curs (Bolio more so;
By constrast the right Bolio/Tombstone dogs are some of the gamest/smartest best dogs on earth IMO.

In other words, you're not just selecting any B/T dogs, you're selecting BUCK and LADY IN RED DOGS, aren't you ;)
Same thing with "RBJ" dogs; some of those are long-haired, fat-tailed curs as well ... but the right RBJ dogs are what you just described. (Although I would say Bolio dogs are smarter and more prone to having a "Plan b and c" than RBJ dogs ...)




Seriously,
Point is they both are a great line of bulldogs, which is why I base my yard on half from each. If I had to choose, it'd be a hard decision.

I think certain segments of these families are great ... while others are not so great.

I think the BUCK/Hollingsworth dogs are the best of their line (Boyles too) ... and Yellow-type dogs are the best of those dog. I realize there are some small, very private pockets of similar dogs that are also good, so I am speaking very broadly.

Quite frankly, I don't think your dogs have much Tombstone blood in there at all, and might more properly be called "Buck/Yellow" dogs ...

If I personally had to choose between pure Redboy and pure Buck/Hollingsworth, I would choose the Buck/Hollingsworth in a NY second ...




Seriously,
I personally think my dogs take more after the Bolio tombstone lines, but I won't downplay the relevance of rbj blood as it is half of my genetic contribution. Two awesome bloodlines, in my opinion... The two very best. Rank em how you want

I think Machobuck was cleary a Buck dog with the bone density of Mayday. That density came from the Hollingsworth blood IMO, but of course there's no way to say for sure, it's just an opinion.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Putting aside the numerous champions Gr. Ch. Yellow produced, and they are many. The forgotten breeding was the Yellow John x greens Sandy breeding, Produced Gr. Ch. John boy, Ch. Toro,, greens hitman 2x, and super gnats boots.. Who went 4:52 in his second beating the time of both aforementioned candidates. Anyhow, when it comes to these two lines, in my opinion... The two are the two very best. Rank em how you want

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_offspring.php?dog_id=423&sex_id=3


Well, again, I already acknowledged 2 things: 1) that I am well aware of all the great dogs down from certain Redboy elements, and 2) that the RB/JOCKO dogs in particular were magic, but I give a lot of that credit to JOCKO ... and Sandy was just another Vernon Jackson dog that created a similar "magic mix" ... And if you look at Jocko, you can see he is the one bringing the speed.

But that was also a long, long time ago ...

All I can say is the ones my dogs have faced in today's game have damned near all QUIT ... especially without any Yellow in there ... but sometimes with it in there. When they lose, it's not DG, it's by standing there taking the count. ALMOST ALWAYS. So I don't see how it can be called a "game" line ...

But at no time did I say there weren't any historically-game Redboy dogs, I am just talking about what I have experienced lately, and for quite some time.

In the present day, I think MOST of the "pure Redboy" dogs I have personally seen have not been anywhere near what I would call "game" ... and most have been slow and not too bright either. When I see "a pure Redboy dog," I am not thinking "game" ... I am thinking slow, dumb, so-so-game dog ... that will quit at some point.

People just assume that "pure Redboy dogs" are game on average ... or in high-percentage ... and I truly think they are NOT, not like the pure Hollingsworth dogs used to be, and not like my dogs are. They quit to mine almost every time.

Again, I am speaking of straight battlecrosses I see people making today, not of Yellow, or Yellow John's sons of times long passed. I am talking about TODAY ... of taking some "pure Redboy" dog ... and making a "battle cross" with it. I think most aren't worth a plug nickel, quite frankly. Not the ones I've seen at any rate.

Hooker Red is a great example of one who was (well, almost dead game). She was off of Crews' Rocky, a legitimately great producer. And HERE IS THE KEY: I am sure there are certain SELECTED great Redboy INDIVIDUAL producers ... but I don't think "the line itself" is anything to write home about.

Back in the day, when you said "Hollingsworth dog" ... you said GAME (essentially). It didn't matter which one you were pointing at, they were damned near all game, and you would either lose to it or it would take you 2+ hours to beat it (and you'd die after you did).

That same truth does not apply when you say "Redboy dog" ... not even close. It seems to me you're lucky to find a truly game Redboy dog.

That is my message and opinion, and of course others may differ :)

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Some things are on point, some I agree, some is irrefutable. I agree, about the difference in bolio dogs and hollingsworth, it's why I made the breeding with hollingsworth bull. And yes. My dogs are mostly buck. .. Like Mr. Machobuck, but Machobear has more hollingsworth mixed in. Yes Machobuck was Buck in a Mayday body. .. Be it hollingsworth or yellow. And yes. . I believe redboy dogs have been over bred, but I've seen dogs off Hatfield's Taz consistently produce make you cry game dogs with a plethora of bitches. Who is a gamer line as a whole, tough to beat hollingsworth, I even think gamer than yellow or buck line slightly. . My absolute favorite breeding of all time was the Mayday - Blondie breeding. It was a masterpiece. A grand champion son of Grandchampion and best producing rbj dog of all time, bred to one of the best producing bitches of all time straight from old man Hollingsworth's yard. Bottom was out of a grand champion who who beat a grand champion bolio tombstone dog, to one of the best producing rbj gyps out of yellow from litters that were consistent. Mayday, choice, dragonlady, Madonna on top, Gr. Ch. Yellowbuck and ch. Piggy on bottom. I've tried to breed around that, adding tonka bear , deadlift, your stuff.. . Always keeping around the same %. 50-50..next few years will tell the tale.

[Officially Retired]

:hatsoff:

[CYJ]

I was right there at the beginning of the straight Red Boy x Cleo etc. crosses. Owned a full brother of Red Boy's litter formally owned by Louis Miles. The brindle black nose dog's name was Bouncer. I had another named Liz out of Red Boy and Martin's lady. Louis had a small yard of Red Boy dogs bred around Bass' Cleo.

Another dog man by the name of Rowell had another bitch named Fancy. Fancy was out of Bass' Tramp Red Boy x Bass' Cleo. Rowell bred up at least one cross of Davis' Chivo or Davis' Boomerang to Fancy. He got some match dogs off that breeding.

F. Jacob's also bred the Boze dog to his Hog bitch that was Red boy bred. There were other's that had those dogs as Red Boy was bred by Martin/Bass/ and Katie when each person owned Tramp Red Boy. The Red Boy dogs were real popular among the Pembroke Indians. A lot of those dogs not all came red/red nose and given Indian names. Great marketing scheme.

Now for the rest of the story and my experience with some Red boy dogs. First nothing was ever done with the Bouncer dog. He was a average dog with average ability. A ex Navy Seal by the name of R. Goodson took the dog and kept it for a pet.

Louis Miles swore to me one of his black bitches off Red Boy and Cleo was a game acting bitch and had a good mouth. Was a nice looking black bitch. I matched her into a bitch owned by Rex Byrd. Rex had a fast hard driving, shoulder biting dog. Miles Red Boy bitch curred and ran in less than ten minutes.

Later V. Jackson came down and rolled his young Banjo dog on my Liz bitch. Banjo was the better dog and since Liz had a gimp leg gave Liz to my brother. Liz was a game dog and had a full brother owned by Rowell named Ringo. Ringo was a very good dog. These two dogs were Red Boy x Bullet breeding.

Later V. Jackson matched my Stagger Lee bitch into one of Rowell's B. Davis x Fancy bred bitches. Was a good match but Stagger Lee out fought and out bit Rowell's dog two to one.

Later on down the road I rolled my little Jake dog on one of J. Spruill's dogs that outweighed my dog by a good ten pounds or more. Spruill had some smaller dogs but wanted to use this dog. He had bought this dog from Jacobs. This dog was red &white with a red nose and yellow eyes. Probably some of the Boze x Hog dog cross. I agreed to let it go for five but no longer than ten minutes due to the weight difference and my dog right off the chain. My little Jake dog had it rough for around five minutes. Till he shot in the back end and curred this big dog out. Spruill was furious as he had paid some good money for that dog.

My Face bitch was matched once into one of Jacobs Ch Red Boy bitches and later a extra rough Carver x Red Boy cross of Jacob and Johnson. My Face bitch curred and killed both these bitches in under ten minutes.

There were two other matches where Bass and Katie matched two different Red Boy bitches. One into Molly Bee and one into J. Johnson's Rage bitch. Both Red Boy bitches curred and died real fast after Molly Bee and Rage got their mouths on them. After both of those matches started and Bass saw what the out come was going to be. He hauled ass with all the gate money and did not honor his bets. Most dog men quit messing with Bass and he died not many years after that last match with the Rage bitch.

Now all this is my opinion and my in site. I had sorry dogs as well but I had some real go getters. When V.J. was at the top of his game. Bass or Katie never sent us any weights. I saw Straight /Red Boy dogs rolling or going against other Red boy dogs. They would go and go and scratch and scratch. But was no real damage was being done. When a hard biting, corner pile driving dog got one. It was over real fast.

Back then Bass liked to go around to us younger beginner dog men's yard. Challenge us to four week matches with him holding the forfeit. He was a real peach of a Guy. My friend A. Howle kept his dogs lean and in pre keep shape. Howle had some Cotton's Bullet x Carver's Tiger Jack dogs. Bass was down our way in a local get together and jab session. He was throwing out some weights and wanting to go in four weeks. So Howle took his weight on one of his Red Boy bitches. Had a neutral person to hold the forfeit. When the show went down. Howle beat Bass' Red BOY bitch dog like a red headed step child. Howle was competing and holding his own against dog men like M. Gainey so he had dogs with mouth and gaminess.


I was really surprised when I got to looking at all these newer bred dogs. To find so much Red Boy crossed to these other blood lines. Especially to good Carver lines that I felt were being diluted down with a lesser who knew how they were bred local bulldogs. So over time with Katie and Mims having control over this line and culling real hard and out crossing them. The dogs got much better.

Do not wish to sound like I am putting any ones dogs down. Have put off writing this. I had plenty of sorry dogs of my own. I was more comfortable with the pedigrees off my Coplin/Heinzl dogs than trying to figure out what the Red boy line came from. They were Katie's dogs and she was doing her thing. Was very successful I might add. I preferred to do my own thing. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

I was right there at the beginning of the straight Red Boy x Cleo etc. crosses. Owned a full brother of Red Boy's litter formally owned by Louis Miles. The brindle black nose dog's name was Bouncer. I had another named Liz out of Red Boy and Martin's lady. Louis had a small yard of Red Boy dogs bred around Bass' Cleo.

Another dog man by the name of Rowell had another bitch named Fancy. Fancy was out of Bass' Tramp Red Boy x Bass' Cleo. Rowell bred up at least one cross of Davis' Chivo or Davis' Boomerang to Fancy. He got some match dogs off that breeding.

F. Jacob's also bred the Boze dog to his Hog bitch that was Red boy bred. There were other's that had those dogs as Red Boy was bred by Martin/Bass/ and Katie when each person owned Tramp Red Boy. The Red Boy dogs were real popular among the Pembroke Indians. A lot of those dogs not all came red/red nose and given Indian names. Great marketing scheme.

Now for the rest of the story and my experience with some Red boy dogs. First nothing was ever done with the Bouncer dog. He was a average dog with average ability. A ex Navy Seal by the name of R. Goodson took the dog and kept it for a pet.

Louis Miles swore to me one of his black bitches off Red Boy and Cleo was a game acting bitch and had a good mouth. Was a nice looking black bitch. I matched her into a bitch owned by Rex Byrd. Rex had a fast hard driving, shoulder biting dog. Miles Red Boy bitch curred and ran in less than ten minutes.

Later V. Jackson came down and rolled his young Banjo dog on my Liz bitch. Banjo was the better dog and since Liz had a gimp leg gave Liz to my brother. Liz was a game dog and had a full brother owned by Rowell named Ringo. Ringo was a very good dog. These two dogs were Red Boy x Bullet breeding.

Later V. Jackson matched my Stagger Lee bitch into one of Rowell's B. Davis x Fancy bred bitches. Was a good match but Stagger Lee out fought and out bit Rowell's dog two to one.

Later on down the road I rolled my little Jake dog on one of J. Spruill's dogs that out weighed my dog by a good ten pounds or more. Spruill had some smaller dogs but wanted to use this dog. He had bought this dog from Jacobs. This dog was red &white with a red nose and yellow eyes. Probably some of the Boze x Hog dog cross. I agreed to let it go for five but no longer than ten minutes due to the weight difference and my dog right off the chain. My little Jake dog had it rough for around five minutes. Till he shot in the back end and curred this big dog out. Spruill was furious as he had paid some good money for that dog.

My Face bitch was matched once into one of Jacobs Ch Red Boy bitches and later a xtra rough Carver x Red Boy cross of Jacob and Johnson. My Face bitch curred and killed both these bitches in under fifteen minutes.

There were two other matches where Bass and Katie matched two different Red Boy bitches. One into Molly Bee and one into J. Johnson's Rage bitch. Both Red Boy bitches curred and died real fast after Molly Bee and Rage got their mouths on them. After both of those matches started and Bass saw what the out come was going to be. He hauled ass with all the gate money and did not honor his bets. Most dog men quit messing with Bass and he died not many years after that last match with the Rage bitch.

Now all this is my opinion and my in site. I had sorry dogs as well but I had some real go getters. When V.J. was at the top of his game. Bass or Katie never sent us any weights. I saw Straight /Red Boy dogs rolling or going against other Red boy dogs. They would go and go and scratch and scratch. But was no real damage was being done. When a hard biting, corner pile driving dog got one. It was over real fast.

Back then Bass liked to go around to us younger beginner dog men's yard. Challenge us to four week matches with him holding the forfeit. He was a real peach of a Guy. My friend A. Howle kept his dogs lean and in pre keep shape. Howle had some Cotton's Bullet x Carver's Tiger Jack dogs. Bass was down our way in a local get together and jab session. He was throwing out some weights and wanting to go in four weeks. So Howle took his weight on one of his Red Boy bitches. Had a neutral person to hold the forfeit. When the show went down. Howle beat Bass' Red BOY bitch dog like a red headed step child. Howle was competing and holding his own against dog men like M. Gainey so he had dogs with mouth and gaminess.


I was really surprised when I got to looking at all these newer bred dogs. To find so much Red Boy crossed to these other blood lines. Especially to good Carver lines that I felt were being diluted down with a lesser who knew how they were bred local bulldogs. So over time with Katie and Mims having control over this line and culling real hard and out crossing them. The dogs got much better.

Do not wish to sound like I am putting any ones dogs down. Have put off writing this. I had plenty of sorry dogs of my own. I was more comfortable with the pedigrees off my Coplin/Heinzl dogs than trying to figure out what the Red boy line came from. They were Katie's dogs and she was doing her thing. Was very successful I might add. I preferred to do my own thing. Cheers


Nice history, as always, CYJ.

Ultimately, I too preferred doing my own thing.

As they say, if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.

The best way to get dogs "like you want" is to breed those dogs which have those traits together, try to lock it in, and then "keep doing what you're doing."

If your dogs keep curring to everybody else's, then you're doing something wrong.
If everyone else's dogs keep curring to yours, then you're doing something right.

Sounds like you were doing something right.

Cheers,

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Seems like there are times when splitting hairs is necessary, especially when it comes to dogs and the finer points of discussion. While I can't begin to even touch Mr. Y's experience with dogs coming right from Redboy, I can add my .02.

I would have to agree with him that somewhere, over time, those dogs did get a lot better. Somehow, those dogs got noted for gameness, and there's usually only one way to truly be noted for such things. The Redboy dogs that I've seen and/or owned that consistently showed the gameness those dogs were noted for came from Deacon, Mike & Co's Mangler, and Voyles' Little John. We're all aware who Deacon was during his day. The Deacon dogs I'll speak on were Frosty Paws and Ch.Becky. Mangler was from a breeding of Bingo/Bliss and was located in TN. Voyles' Little John was a Redboy/Jocko breeding right from Fletcher when he was alive. Sure, all of those dogs had offspring that quit. There's simply no way around that, but what they did on a regular basis, whether getting checked or getting matched was show their gameness when it was called upon.

Those dogs showed that as they were consistently bred for that gameness, and there have been quite a few extreme cases bred from those particular individual dogs. The only one of those dogs that had a lot of inbreeding done with it was Little John. It wasn't until the end when his owner started simply trying to get dogs off him that all of that suffered some on the dog's production standpoint. Mangler wasn't bred as much as he should be, but his ability to produce dogs that could win and stay there during a long, brutal war was proven time and time again. The Kottonmouth dog that BCC had was off Mangler, and that dog was bred extensively to their Rags blood. He carried on the Mangler tradition for those guys. The dogs I saw down from Becky were bred by a man who really became obsessed with the gameness aspect of dogs. Good or bad, he was the only person, or yard, that I ever visited that gameness was seriously the number one priority. It wasn't the ability to win a match, bite you down, etc. It was simply the ability to show what the dog was made of in the most dire circumstances. It was always an interesting time at his house some years ago. My Frosty Paws dog was bred by WCC, and he wasn't any household name of a dog. He was simply a dog that had the ability to produce a game dog, show dog, etc on a regular basis. My yard still carries a very heavy influence of him to this day, and it will for some times to come.

I wrote all of that to simply say this. If someone wants Redboy dogs for gameness consistently, you need to find a person that is breeding those dogs with that in mind. It's fairly easy to get online and find a super heavy Redboy bred dog and hope it's a game dog. The sad reality is most of those individuals really have no idea what that really means. That is why I wouldn't buy any Redboy type dogs from anyone, save maybe one person at this time. The line simply isn't based on the gameness it was originally noted for any longer.

[evolutionkennels]

Seems like there are times when splitting hairs is necessary, especially when it comes to dogs and the finer points of discussion. While I can't begin to even touch Mr. Y's experience with dogs coming right from Redboy, I can add my .02.

I would have to agree with him that somewhere, over time, those dogs did get a lot better. Somehow, those dogs got noted for gameness, and there's usually only one way to truly be noted for such things. The Redboy dogs that I've seen and/or owned that consistently showed the gameness those dogs were noted for came from Deacon, Mike & Co's Mangler, and Voyles' Little John. We're all aware who Deacon was during his day. The Deacon dogs I'll speak on were Frosty Paws and Ch.Becky. Mangler was from a breeding of Bingo/Bliss and was located in TN. Voyles' Little John was a Redboy/Jocko breeding right from Fletcher when he was alive. Sure, all of those dogs had offspring that quit. There's simply no way around that, but what they did on a regular basis, whether getting checked or getting matched was show their gameness when it was called upon.

Those dogs showed that as they were consistently bred for that gameness, and there have been quite a few extreme cases bred from those particular individual dogs. The only one of those dogs that had a lot of inbreeding done with it was Little John. It wasn't until the end when his owner started simply trying to get dogs off him that all of that suffered some on the dog's production standpoint. Mangler wasn't bred as much as he should be, but his ability to produce dogs that could win and stay there during a long, brutal war was proven time and time again. The Kottonmouth dog that BCC had was off Mangler, and that dog was bred extensively to their Rags blood. He carried on the Mangler tradition for those guys. The dogs I saw down from Becky were bred by a man who really became obsessed with the gameness aspect of dogs. Good or bad, he was the only person, or yard, that I ever visited that gameness was seriously the number one priority. It wasn't the ability to win a match, bite you down, etc. It was simply the ability to show what the dog was made of in the most dire circumstances. It was always an interesting time at his house some years ago. My Frosty Paws dog was bred by WCC, and he wasn't any household name of a dog. He was simply a dog that had the ability to produce a game dog, show dog, etc on a regular basis. My yard still carries a very heavy influence of him to this day, and it will for some times to come.

I wrote all of that to simply say this. If someone wants Redboy dogs for gameness consistently, you need to find a person that is breeding those dogs with that in mind. It's fairly easy to get online and find a super heavy Redboy bred dog and hope it's a game dog. The sad reality is most of those individuals really have no idea what that really means. That is why I wouldn't buy any Redboy type dogs from anyone, save maybe one person at this time. The line simply isn't based on the gameness it was originally noted for any longer.

I would take a dog off Hatfield's Taz bred to a dalmatian.. Seen that many good game you cry game ones off him

[FrostyPaws]

I would take a dog off Hatfield's Taz bred to a dalmatian.. Seen that many good game you cry game ones off him

And that's where you and I are different, as I'm sure we all are in regards to some ways. I would take plenty of dogs off Taz. That doesn't mean I would breed them when I'm finished. I look at breeding dogs as a complete thing, not a 50% thing. I've owned dogs off Little John, and even my own dog, that I never had the intentions of breeding. I can think of quite a few examples of dogs such as you describe, that when bred, produced dick. They couldn't reproduce the gameness they showed. Possibly it could be they just weren't producers, but to a T of the dogs I'm thinking of, they were always 1/4 or 1/2 bred from something not noted for that gameness and/or produced it on such a rare basis I never wanted to feed it again.

So, I agree in taking a dog off Taz and doing whatever with. Just as I would take anything off Frosty, at this point, or Little John. But that's not a guarantee to be bred and carry in the program simply because of that.

[waccamaw]

Nothing like a real 50/50 Redboy /Jocko dog ,all around total package dogs .and it crosses with anything.

[EWO]

Good series of posts. In our neck of the woods the Mims Redboy dogs are a mainstay. His Redboy dogs are down from Redboy himself and then thru K. Marlowe. I was a young kid back then but the guy that turned me onto dogs bought dogs both straight off Red boy and then later thru K. Marlowe as well. He was a hard man to please and he was hard on his dogs, to the point if it was still there at two years old it had not only been to death's door, but stepped in to see how the other half lived. With that said...

He owned JR, which was straight off Redboy, littermate to Yellow John. He was the type of dog that got the myths and fallacies going. He would stay all night but had little to no mouth. It was said back then every hair on his body had to be killed individually to the tip of his tail and he would then make on more naked scratch.

Lots of people back then were far more impressed with wins than attributes or production records. Redboy dogs were staying all night, winning gamest in show, but seldom had enough left to come back out, or even live that night. Thus the crosses. Another thing (side note) that has always surprised me is when the Redboy and Jocko dogs were crossed the Jocko dogs were doing the winning and in the beginning they were Jocko-Redboy dogs not RBJ. In time the Redboy dogs were crossed into other dogs, several different strains of Redboy started and Redboy gained/led in the popularity polls. In time Jocko took a backseat. Unless one was running those dogs they were referred to as "dumb ol' Jocko-Redboy dogs.

Mr. Mims made a blend of the Redboy dogs to his Snooty dogs and the influx from Clemen's Midnite (littlermate to Bull Boy Bob). In time they were blended so well it was more a Mims dog rather than a Redboy-Snooty-Bolio dog. He knew his dogs and within the the Redboy family he had three very prominent stud dogs, who were all three 'straight/pure bred Redboy dogs, all three were different in style and produced very well when bred to the "Snooty/Bolio" or "Bolio/Snooty" bitches.

Of the Redboy strains I have always preferred what came from Mr. Mims., and especially those dogs bred to certain bitches he had (Lucky and Rainbow). Over the years we have tried many of the Redboy strains, straight and crossed, and always end up leaning back toward the Mims heavy Redboy dogs.

Granted, one or two dogs from a line can't be true indicators. That would be unfair. We had two Deacon dogs, one straight off Deacon and another off of Deacon Jr. to a daughter of Deacon. Both bit very hard, not just hard for a Redboy dog but bit very hard period, but neither had forty minutes in him. So we again leaned back to the Mims dogs. We tried dogs from D. Cottingham, a little more success with them, but the few we had lacked durability. Again, back to the Mims dogs.

This is just my opinion, but I think Redboy, like a lot of lines, fell victim to its own popularity. Go to any message board and type "Pure Redboy" then type in "Pure Buck", "Pure Poncho" "Pure Bolio", "Pure whatever" and watch the number of views. The redboy dogs will always win. Couple this with these dogs being sold for $$$ to any one with $$$ and the strain itself has to suffer. Another debate pops up along the same lines as Frosty pointed out, being Redboy is not as near as important as being whose Redboy. EWO

[evolutionkennels]

Good series of posts. In our neck of the woods the Mims Redboy dogs are a mainstay. His Redboy dogs are down from Redboy himself and then thru K. Marlowe. I was a young kid back then but the guy that turned me onto dogs bought dogs both straight off Red boy and then later thru K. Marlowe as well. He was a hard man to please and he was hard on his dogs, to the point if it was still there at two years old it had not only been to death's door, but stepped in to see how the other half lived. With that said...

He owned JR, which was straight off Redboy, littermate to Yellow John. He was the type of dog that got the myths and fallacies going. He would stay all night but had little to no mouth. It was said back then every hair on his body had to be killed individually to the tip of his tail and he would then make on more naked scratch.

Lots of people back then were far more impressed with wins than attributes or production records. Redboy dogs were staying all night, winning gamest in show, but seldom had enough left to come back out, or even live that night. Thus the crosses. Another thing (side note) that has always surprised me is when the Redboy and Jocko dogs were crossed the Jocko dogs were doing the winning and in the beginning they were Jocko-Redboy dogs not RBJ. In time the Redboy dogs were crossed into other dogs, several different strains of Redboy started and Redboy gained/led in the popularity polls. In time Jocko took a backseat. Unless one was running those dogs they were referred to as "dumb ol' Jocko-Redboy dogs.

Mr. Mims made a blend of the Redboy dogs to his Snooty dogs and the influx from Clemen's Midnite (littlermate to Bull Boy Bob). In time they were blended so well it was more a Mims dog rather than a Redboy-Snooty-Bolio dog. He knew his dogs and within the the Redboy family he had three very prominent stud dogs, who were all three 'straight/pure bred Redboy dogs, all three were different in style and produced very well when bred to the "Snooty/Bolio" or "Bolio/Snooty" bitches.

Of the Redboy strains I have always preferred what came from Mr. Mims., and especially those dogs bred to certain bitches he had (Lucky and Rainbow). Over the years we have tried many of the Redboy strains, straight and crossed, and always end up leaning back toward the Mims heavy Redboy dogs.

Granted, one or two dogs from a line can't be true indicators. That would be unfair. We had two Deacon dogs, one straight off Deacon and another off of Deacon Jr. to a daughter of Deacon. Both bit very hard, not just hard for a Redboy dog but bit very hard period, but neither had forty minutes in him. So we again leaned back to the Mims dogs. We tried dogs from D. Cottingham, a little more success with them, but the few we had lacked durability. Again, back to the Mims dogs.

This is just my opinion, but I think Redboy, like a lot of lines, fell victim to its own popularity. Go to any message board and type "Pure Redboy" then type in "Pure Buck", "Pure Poncho" "Pure Bolio", "Pure whatever" and watch the number of views. The redboy dogs will always win. Couple this with these dogs being sold for $$$ to any one with $$$ and the strain itself has to suffer. Another debate pops up along the same lines as Frosty pointed out, being Redboy is not as near as important as being whose Redboy. EWO


Again, we'll we'll stated. I absolutely love the mims redboy dogs as as well. They are super nice and have plenty of back end staying power

[FrostyPaws]

EWO, I can remember going back and looking through a lot of the old SDJs at one time to find out what happened to the Jocko dogs, persay. What I found, through only the magazine and my deducation, is that the Jocko dogs WERE winning. BUT, they were also quitting a lot after winning 1 or 2. I think the only reason there are still any Jocko dogs around, in any form, is simply due to Yellow John being influxed into those dogs. There were heavy bred Yellow John dogs kicking around for years, but you never really saw many heavy Jocko dogs, certainly not anything like you would see the YJ dogs. I think the only heavy Jocko bred dog that had success in production, along with performance, was Ch.Termite. His son, Gabriel, did a good job production wise also, but I don't know how many times he was bred, so maybe the production bit goes down a lot depending on that aspect.

The Little John dog I was so fond of was a little heavier Jocko than Yellow John, but he was also the only Redboy/Jocko dog I've seen that I saw enough offspring from to be impressed with. The Yellow dogs I saw from Tant were never impressive to me. I never saw any heavy Redboy dogs from Mims, but I did see a yard of dogs from him that were those crosses of which you speak. There was one dog from that entire group of dogs that had that kind of honesty, and even that dog was a psycho, man-eating SOB.

It's too bad we couldn't take the best, or gamest, dogs from those particular strains, combine, go through, and keep strolling into the future.

[EWO]

I have had my share of crazy ass Mims dogs as well. Most just get geeked up and it is hard for them to come back down. I have one now that I think left unattended, or without daily attention he would eventually be a biter. It is like he is sitting on the fence. Never had one that actually bit me but I can see where the lack of handling coupled with that bat shit craziness a dog could get on that side of the fence.

Agree on the RBJ dogs. The Termite dog I agree with, and your deduction about how they turned out, well, I can see the point as well. I have not had a ton of experience with the RBJ dogs myself. I saw a Burns Hotdog/Tomjack dog quit, and a couple from Tant's Tripple AAA not make it either. From Triple AAA there was a good dog named Jam who produced a couple of good ones around these parts. The best one I saw was from Waccamaw, he went 2:50 I think, and the last :50 was as impressive as anything I have seen. He took a beating and was willing to go when the other was not. Looked good. I would not judge the whole family on what little I have seen.

Good posts. Bog redboy fan myself. EWO

[FrostyPaws]

I made a visit out that way some years ago and saw Jam, and a few dogs off him. Also saw some dogs off Shredder. Unfortunately, the dogs off Jam were still rather young, and while the Shredder dogs were ok, they weren't exactly my cup of tea. I know Shredder produced some winners when bred to Dirty White Boy I believe. That has been so long ago though. Always interesting when the world gets a little smaller when conversations merge together.

And I, like you, don't want to degrade an entire family on a few dogs. I know there were good Yellow dogs out there. I was just never really fortunate enough to see any that I really thought were something I'd want to feed or breed around.

[AmericanDogMan]

Not to belabor the point. But I found a good read from Mr. Carl Mims himself where he calls out the Bolio/Tombstone the number one producing line. Circa 1986

Good read below

He states name's like:

Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.). A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.
-----

The dog' he mention's are name's behind

Hollingsworth bull
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=181

and

Hollingsworth Dolly
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=171

and Gr Ch Machobuck DOY 2004
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=327

And

And Gr Ch Awesome Beast Doy 2003
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4545

And the best of the Boyle's line

And further to the point these dogs were the secret sauce in
DOY 2002 Latin Force Barracuda
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=372
With him being a heavy Yellow dog ... Matter fact most of the Redboy found in the above mentioned specimens were Yellow dog's

I am a great fan of Mims' Redboy dogs and the stuff from K. Marlowe coming thru Judge's Buck

But I must admit my favorite as well is Tombstone/Bolio and their winning Gr Ch/ Ch children.

Below is the full article
----

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986
Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world.
Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses.
It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal.
One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him.
I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some.
If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake.
If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes.
I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith".

The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM),
Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM), "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and
Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't.
A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/ "Indian Bolio" (ROM). Some of the top producers of this line are: Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr." (produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) Crossed over into Ch. "Jocko" blood has produced some great ones like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM) This is a line that has been bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh. "Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) This line is known for it's gameness. If all of "Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's "Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter "Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California. His brother sired 2 Champions before his death. "Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the Journal, and has been bred quite a bit. This line is great breeding stock.
These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.
TIP!! An example of a line that people are taking a chance on is GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died. GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.

[FrostyPaws]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.

[Officially Retired]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.

Mmmm, I am not sure I can agree with that.

People forget how many Bolio-type dogs there are out there winning.

The Boyle's line alone, all based on a son of BBB out of a daughter of Red Baby, could probably go head-to-head with the RBJ dogs of that era, as far as Champions/wins, ROMs etc. By itself.

Then if you add the Buck dogs, my dogs, the Tonka dogs, etc. of the 90s/2000s ... let alone all the RBJ crosses using the Buck/Hollingsworth Bolio/Tombstone blood as a catalyst (or a mainstay) ... while trying not to forget almost every single significant Garner's Chinaman dog has a heavy Bolio/Hollingsworth and/or Payne/Crum-bred Bolio/Tombstone influence in there ... it all starts to look a bit overwhelming.

Regardless of who has "the most," it was definitely at the forefront or thereabouts.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Not to belabor the point. But I found a good read from Mr. Carl Mims himself where he calls out the Bolio/Tombstone the number one producing line. Circa 1986

Good read below

He states name's like:

Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.). A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.
-----

The dog' he mention's are name's behind

Hollingsworth bull
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=181

and

Hollingsworth Dolly
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=171

and Gr Ch Machobuck DOY 2004
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=327

And

And Gr Ch Awesome Beast Doy 2003
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4545

And the best of the Boyle's line

And further to the point these dogs were the secret sauce in
DOY 2002 Latin Force Barracuda
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=372
With him being a heavy Yellow dog ... Matter fact most of the Redboy found in the above mentioned specimens were Yellow dog's

I am a great fan of Mims' Redboy dogs and the stuff from K. Marlowe coming thru Judge's Buck

But I must admit my favorite as well is Tombstone/Bolio and their winning Gr Ch/ Ch children.

Below is the full article
----

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986
Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world.
Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses.
It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal.
One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him.
I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some.
If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake.
If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes.
I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith".

The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM),
Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM), "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and
Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't.
A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/ "Indian Bolio" (ROM). Some of the top producers of this line are: Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob" (Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr." (produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) Crossed over into Ch. "Jocko" blood has produced some great ones like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM) This is a line that has been bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh. "Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) This line is known for it's gameness. If all of "Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's "Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter "Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California. His brother sired 2 Champions before his death. "Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the Journal, and has been bred quite a bit. This line is great breeding stock.
These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.
TIP!! An example of a line that people are taking a chance on is GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died. GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.


It's nice to read the musings / research of some of the old-timers. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Jack

[waccamaw]

In 1986, I would agree. It was at that time that the first Redboy/Jocko crosses were really coming of age. So, I'd be willing to bet during the end of the 80s and through some of the 90s, the Redboy/Jocko dogs won as much, if not more during that span of time, than most any other line of dogs. Dogs are peaks and valleys.
In the late 80,s and all through the 90's the RBJ dogs had the most wins in the SDJ .mainly the yellow dogs .

[blood brothers]

Hooker red did not quit....it was a draw between the two

[AmericanDogMan]

It's nice to read the musings / research of some of the old-timers. Thanks for taking the time to share this.

Jack

Thank you too Jack. This thread has been fun to read as well. It has shined a light on an important point, kind of like dogging 101.

The bottom line take away is that, it's more important to deal with reputable breeder's from a specific strain of a family of dog's; than to just chase after a bloodline.

Happy hunting friends
-

[Officially Retired]

In the late 80,s and all through the 90's the RBJ dogs had the most wins in the SDJ .mainly the yellow dogs .

I am sure they are up there, possibly at the top, but unquestionably "up there" ... and this is where the beauty of this database comes in ... we have the Statistics Generator (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_statistics_dogs.php) to find out the facts 8)

So I am going to run it and get back here with the results :)

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Mmmm, I am not sure I can agree with that.

People forget how many Bolio-type dogs there are out there winning.

The Boyle's line alone, all based on a son of BBB out of a daughter of Red Baby, could probably go head-to-head with the RBJ dogs of that era, as far as Champions/wins, ROMs etc. By itself.

Then if you add the Buck dogs, my dogs, the Tonka dogs, etc. of the 90s/2000s ... let alone all the RBJ crosses using the Buck/Hollingsworth Bolio/Tombstone blood as a catalyst (or a mainstay) ... while trying not to forget almost every single significant Garner's Chinaman dog has a heavy Bolio/Hollingsworth and/or Payne/Crum-bred Bolio/Tombstone influence in there ... it all starts to look a bit overwhelming.

Regardless of who has "the most," it was definitely at the forefront or thereabouts.

Jack

I didn't forget about the Bolio type dogs out there, but that's also why I said through some of the 90s. During the mid-late 90s, the Boyles line of dogs, especially bred from WCC, were all over the SDJ winning left and right. Champions, Grand Champions, ROM dogs, etc. They had a long, solid run of winning just as the Redboy/Jocko dogs did from the mid-late 80s through the early part of the 90s to probably the mid 90s.

I didn't comment so much on the later 90s or the 2000s as I simply don't remember one batch of dogs clearly standing out like in previous periods. I was only commenting on certain periods not over an entire three decade span.

[Officially Retired]

Thank you too Jack. This thread has been fun to read as well. It has shined a light on an important point, kind of like dogging 101.
The bottom line take away is that, it's more important to deal with reputable breeder's from a specific strain of a family of dog's; than to just chase after a bloodline.
Happy hunting friends
-


Honestly, it has to do with something more important than "reputable" breeders; it has to do with breeders who really understand what gameness means :idea:

There are plenty of breeders who will be honest, with both pedigrees and paperwork, but who still are selling something "other than" truly game dogs ... in fact, most breeders are in this category.

Also, there are plenty of breeders who sell dogs "that can win" ... but they're still not bloodlines that almost invariably lose "dead game" when they do lose ... their dogs just quit like everything else.

Yes, we've all bred dogs that have quit ... but when MOST of your losses are quits, then you're not breeding a game line of dogs IMO.

And, like I said on Page 3 (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs/page3), most of these Redboy dogs are quitting when they lose. Almost invariably, they are not showing as game as the Hollingsworth dogs were. In fact, when the pure Hollingsworth dog Dr. Savage (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37745) faced the pure RBJ dog Latin Boys' Clorox ... it again was another 2+ hour fight ... but, again, the Hollingsworth dog won, and never stopped scratching, while the other finally had enough and did stop scratching. That has just been my consistent experience.

They are simply not as game a line of dogs, on average. Again, this exact same opinion occurred from one of the foundational Redboy breeders 20 years ago, when his pure Hollingsworth dogs were stopping his pure Redboy dogs. This same scenario has repeatedly been true when these dogs have faced mine. The result is the same literally almost every time. There is no "50-50 split" ... it's those dogs ultimately have a stopping point and lose on the scratch line ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I didn't forget about the Bolio type dogs out there, but that's also why I said through some of the 90s. During the mid-late 90s, the Boyles line of dogs, especially bred from WCC, were all over the SDJ winning left and right. Champions, Grand Champions, ROM dogs, etc. They had a long, solid run of winning just as the Redboy/Jocko dogs did from the mid-late 80s through the early part of the 90s to probably the mid 90s.
I didn't comment so much on the later 90s or the 2000s as I simply don't remember one batch of dogs clearly standing out like in previous periods. I was only commenting on certain periods not over an entire three decade span.


Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=238), who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2866), etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

Understood. The subject of winning is another can of worms, but my original complaint was these dogs are being bought and sold as THE GAMEST dogs ... but they're nothing even close to that.

I know that you had Frosty Paws (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=238), who was consistently producing that kind of gameness for you, and I know that there were other select individuals (such as Crews' Rocky (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2866), etc.) that were throwing more gameness than what is typical of the line (or any line). But I honestly believe these game-producing Redboy dogs are the EXCEPTION for their line.

"In general" I have seen (and had my dogs go into) a whole host of different Redboy dogs ... and the Redboy dogs almost invariably lose and quit.
Maybe "in general" the Redboy dogs might be out-scratching (say) Eli dogs, or whatever other kind of dogs, but when they have faced the truly dead game Hollingsworth dogs (and blends, such as my own) ... yeah, it typically goes awhile, but almost invariably it's the Redboy crosses that run out of gameness first. It has been nowhere near a 50-50% split.

Again, this is not trash talk, it's just what I have seen happen time and again.
As a line, they simply are nowhere near as reliably-game as the Hollingworth dogs were as a line.

Granted, as you have said, I think there are those breeders who breed extremely game segments of the Redboy family, but "as a whole" it is not a DG line of dogs.

I guess the point of my original rant was to put the brakes on the idea that "this is a game line" in general ... because "in general" it sure as hell is not ... not like what I am used to at any rate.

Maybe if the Hollingsworth dogs were overbred too, they would become inconsistent junk also, but I never really saw that happen.
Back when they were prevalent, if you were "another line" going into a Hollingsworth dog (or cross), you were pretty much looking to quit to it eventually or die ... and the Hollingsworth dog would either win eventually, on scratching, or it would die DEAD GAME. They simply would not quit. Literally, almost never.

And that is what I consider a truly game line to be ... it produces dogs that either win or die trying ... where "quits" are truly rare, unpleasant surprises.

Whoever said, "Be surprised when they scratch," was simply breeding the wrong line of dogs ...

Jack

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

[waccamaw]

Gameness has a lot to do with health and condition of the animal hunting,and what they are hunting .a good game animal in the hands of an idiot won't be so game ,to sum it up some people can screw up anything they touch.
Now back on the RBJ ,our line is a little different than most.we have focused on keeping it. 50/ 50 and only breeding solid bulldogs ,total package hunters .smart ,wide open barnstormer's,deep game ,and that heavy mouth .while some only focused on gameness or mouth ,and end up bouncing here and there ,we bred the ones that had it all .the end results total package dogs with a high percentage in each litter .this practice is what we call select breeding .i can't take anything away from any bloodline just certain strains of the bloodline ,you need to know what breeder has the best line .

[swampdawg]

Ditto to what Sonny said.

[Black Hand]

Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

[Black Hand]

Some of those redboy dogs may be the exception and not the rule... But as long as it's the rule on my yard and not the exception who cares about the rest of em lol. Find it and build around it. I don't feed redboy dogs though, just speaking in general.

[Officially Retired]

I don't believe that any line of dogs is a DG line of dogs. There are DG individuals within all lines of dogs, but invariably, there are individuals WITHIN those lines that produce that on a higher average than others. And I think that dogs that produce that higher than above average gameness are always exceptions. I can't say as I blame you for trying to put on the brakes from all the "game line" talk as I've done that before.

Well said.




Any line of dogs that are mass bred and sold off to everyone with money to burn will become inconsistent junk. There is simply no way around that. I'm a firm believer that most folks shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Hell, I still feel that way about myself at times. The difference is I'm letting the dogs, and the decisions I make, show me the error of my ways OR giving me the golden fruit, so to speak. I'm trying to keep everything I do, in house, so I can fully see what works how I want and what doesn't, and like I said in previous posts, I think I'm finally getting a handle on that.

Agreed. And I have said the same thing for years: most people shouldn't even contemplate breeding dogs. Amen to that.




In regards to matches and what not, invariably the dogs that quit during schooling don't get counted so much. I feel the same as you about your own dogs. When something has made it to a certain point for me, they've never quit past that point. Matches are tricky in the sense of timing, when to pickup, not picking up, leaving them down, etc.

This is true. But, here again, when the dogs are legitimately DG, they just don't quit regardless.

For example, I can think of dozens of dogs "that have lost" because of their keep, their condition, etc. Lost but not QUIT.

I do believe health and condition can affect gameness. I also believe styles, frustrations, depth of pain/injury can affect gameness.
One dog may quit if he gets bit in the stomach, or kidneys, yet not care if he's bit on the legs. Etc.

Yet some dogs just DO NOT QUIT ... and, no matter what happens, they keep going until the last bit of life escapes them.
And I can think of certain families of dogs (and families within families) that will pretty much DO THIS (way more often than they'll quit).

THAT is what I call "a DG family" of dogs: where damned near every dog on the yard will go the route.
And there are yards like that.




If our mutual friend Keith were still in dogs, he would be the one person I'd go to if I seriously wanted game Redboy dogs. Short of that, I can't think of another person I'd go to for something as serious as gameness regarding that line of dogs.

Understood.

And, really, if I open my own eyes a little wider, I would see that what I am talking about are Lady In Red dogs ... or "Poncho dogs" (whose mother was a 3/4 Lady In Red dog) ... not just any "Bolio/Tombstone" dogs ...

In the same fashion, I think MOST of the modern-day Bolio/Tombstone dogs aren't even close to being a "game line" either. (I've been through many dozens of them on my way to finding out what I wanted.)
In all my years in dogs, I have never found ANY segment of the Bolio/Tombstone dogs that had the % of gameness as "Lady In Red" dogs or, ultimately, my Poncho dogs. Not one.

In the same fashion, you probably have never found any Redboy dogs that give you the same % of gameness as Frosty Paws.
In your eyes, and experience, there are generic "Redboy dogs" and there are Frosty dogs.
Ultimately, what all this dialogue brings out is that we have to look for key individuals with any line, and try to linebreed off of them.

Hollingsworth did so with Lady In Red, I did so so with Poncho, and you are doing so with Frosty.

This idea that "any Redboy dog is going to be game" is as false as believing "any Bolio dog is going to be game." Not so!

Yet, within each of these lines, you will find certain key breeders who've got certain key/prepotent dogs, where pretty much any dog off of THEM is going to be a game dog ... or awful close to it.
And this is where re-establishing new sub-families off of main families becomes key, following proven linebreeding patterns based on these key individual prepotent dogs.

So, if nothing else, this discussion has tried to clear the air of breeding "general lines" versus breeding to specific key individuals within these lines.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

Well said. Exactly.

[EWO]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Take the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation. Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.

This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO




Selection. You can probably start with Eli dogs, Hollingsworth dogs, redboy dogs, jeep dogs. Really doesn't matter if your foundation is the WRONG dog from any one of those lines. And the RIGHT dog can help you path the way from any of those lines if you're able to retain it what you had in him. Any line of dog, didn't fall from the sky. A man created and retained the traits you see.

[Officially Retired]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Yes.




VTake the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation.

True. However, most serious breeders will provide insight as to what would make a "breedable pair," a big purchase like that is seldom without breeder input, so the first step after delivery usually carries quite a bit of the breeder's input also.

However, which pups to keep is entirely up to the new owner.
Which breeding decisions to make beyond that, again entirely up to the new owner.

As far as matching dogs goes, I personally root for Poncho dogs no matter who has them ... and I am typically confident in their winning, no matter who bred them ... because they don't need to be mixed any special way to be at least SERIOUSLY GAME ... game enough to stop most other lines on the scratch line ... they got that down pretty good ... but I suppose, over time, I am going to see that start to change ...




Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.


I am watching this happen right now ~X(





This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO

Yes, absolutely. Good post.

Jack

[Frank43]

Very well said. I think the man behind the dogs carries more weight than the family name itself. My Mims Redboy dogs are different than the Deacon Redboy dogs we experienced. Seen very few Holland bred dogs I liked. All Redboy, just different strains, and different strains develop because different people breed the same family for different reasons.

Take the Vise Grip dogs (own the board/get the guinea pig job, LOL). I could go to Jack (or Evolution/Garner/Mims/Boyles) anyone, and buy two males and two females. I may choose to breed A and C, and maybe one of these owners would have bred B and D based on their personal knowledge of their dogs. All the dogs in the pedigree will be Vise grip but if I make the decision on which two to breed this is they very beginning of the next strain. Then when I make the next decision and if it is not the one the line creator would have made there is more separation. Then (and this usually a lines fatal blow) I start selling Vise Grip dogs or Poncho dogs to any and everyone with $2, before you know Jack's Vise Grip/Poncho name will bear the burden of my shortcomings.

This happens to a lot of lines. Popularity, lack of knowledge and profitability will cripple the percentages of any family. Redboy no different. For me, and it is only my opinion, it is better to be more concerned with who the dog comes from rather than chasing a 30 year old name, i.e Redboy-Bolio-Eli-Dime-Dibo...etc...etc...EWO


amen

[ROCK-MACHINE]

For the Boomer ROM Redboy dogs some of the best of it came by way of Red Spook. If I was looking for Redboy blood today though I would go with Panick's (Woodall's) Cod POR or his son Panick's Cod Sack.

[brightlight168]

Is it true, Katie Marlowe culled Ch Radarman?

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=91680

[EWO]

On some yards, and I will not point fingers, or call any names, but culling dogs have little to do with whether a dog is deemed a cur.

On those yards somethings are understood.

On those same yards dogs who make all their scratches do not have all the tools to win.

Those dogs are culled, regardless of pedigree.

EWO

[Frank43]

On some yards, and I will not point fingers, or call any names, but culling dogs have little to do with whether a dog is deemed a cur.

On those yards somethings are understood.

On those same yards dogs who make all their scratches do not have all the tools to win.

Those dogs are culled, regardless of pedigree.

EWO

You think it takes all that

[brightlight168]

On some yards, and I will not point fingers, or call any names, but culling dogs have little to do with whether a dog is deemed a cur.

On those yards somethings are understood.

On those same yards dogs who make all their scratches do not have all the tools to win.

Those dogs are culled, regardless of pedigree.

EWO

That is how you maintain the highest Quality

[EWO]

It all depends on your 'mission statement'.

If you set out to have and make winning dogs, then yes. You have to breed and select traits that make winning dogs.

From that selection process, unless you have unlimited space, unlimited time and unlimited money, some dogs have to go.

When Dog A comes along and he is simply more suited and better than Dog B then Dog A needs a chain spot. Dog B is then removed from the gene pool.

My first experience with the dogs as a kid was on a yard where the bulldog only had one purpose and that was to win matches. The rabbit dogs had to both jump and run. The coon dogs had to tree. Any dog that did not meet the standards was culled.

It was said he put down a ton of dogs other people would have loved to own. When he was out of the dogs and in his 70's he then said he wished he had bred a lot of the dogs he had, even a bunch of the ones he culled. Then in his next breath he said, but if I had gone that route, I would have not won the matches I won.

Now if the mission statement is to preserve the breed or maintain gameness or maintain a family then to reach that goal does not need a bunch of W's to be successful.

I grew up as a 10-year-old kid where a dog was either winner or on his way to becoming a winner. Anything else came up short.

The flipside is that other people pushed the Red Boy family in a thousand directions, bred a bunch of dogs and made a lot of money.

With all the history surrounding Red Boy dogs, the fact they have been and still are, the most popular bulldog in history, also factor in they may be the most profitably bulldog ever just imagine if you owned a male straight off Red Boy who was the full brother to Yellow John. Then imagine that this dog could not bite and did not have much ability and his only redeeming quality was all night scratching.

EWO

[Frank43]

I am interested in those too. The triple ott and yellow John dogs. My other question was about the ways some people approach breeding and culling dogs. That's why I asked does it take all that. I'm not stupid or unable to accept some don't make it. My way was start with hopefully good dogs then asses what is missing or needs improving. If possible find it in something related. Inbreed on ones I wanted to fix traits. Line breed etc. my point is. I think some people do random best to best breedings then end up with litters of junk. Does it take all that. I recently did a breeding i think could be a corner stone of a family. I'm building up to it sequentially.

So now I have this guy and a sister. One is sold.
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum...p?dog_id=91581

They are pups but the little male feels stout to me. I call him monster. I'm excited. The out hopefully gives room to back cross to other dogs in his history.

[EWO]

I also believe good dogs come from any where and everywhere. The dog you )can't see the pedigree) may be the next Yellow John or Mayday or Chinaman or Zebo.

The best female I ever seen was bought out of the newspaper. She was pawned off by a knot-head to his grandmother and she could not care for the dog. The female kept getting out so she was given to a friend of mine with nearly two bags of dog food, a 10X10 pen and a nice igloo dog house. He raised her up and gave her the same shot all his 'really nice' dogs received. She rolled thru them like nothing we had ever seen. She was the most scatterbred dog I have ever seen. Name a dog from the 70's/80's/90's and it was in her. She would scratch, take hold and flop over. Thirty minutes later the standing female would fall over and then get throat checked into the after life. She planted every dog that was ever on her for more than 20 minutes. She won three times. The third time they laid two quarter bound cheeseburgers on the walk out path they gave us. She ate both of them before we realized what she had grabbed. She was over weight and I just knew she would blow hot. She checked that one out in :30.

She was bred to a dog that had produced his fair share of winners. Out of three, one was OK, one was a game plug and the other quit.

She was a freak and freaks normally do not throw themselves.

I see your point but it takes all the spokes in the wheel to keep it turning.

EWO