View Full Version : Pitbulls with outside trash blood in them.
Foxman
03-25-2014, 06:27 AM
About 20 years ago. There was a group of people who approached me do some donating of blood from my dogs to test what all breeds of dogs were in them. They were trying to see what outside blood might cause them to bite people. Yet the test didn't fix the problem. I never had taken blood from a dog before. So I contacted a friend of mine who worked for a vet. We took blood from my dogs and several friends dogs. Now all the dogs that were tested had trash in them at that time. My abe dog was almost pure with minute parts of Terrier. He had like 1/1000 outside blood. Most of the outside blood in the dogs were English,Boston,Boxer and other bulldog types. There were some with different blood of Terrier types. The trashest were the Mayday dogs and I'm not running them down. They are as game as any other bloodline of dogs today. This trash didn't seem to hurt their gameness and they just had minute amounts of the outside blood. They had Lab and retriever in them. I had three Mayday dogs here from different yards. They all had the Lab and retriever in them. One dog that was tested belonged to a friend of mine. He was a two time winner and was Boudreaux and Nigger on his pedigree and he was tested. His blood showed to be a mix of Bulldog and terrier but had none of the origional pitbull blood. They used Amstaffs as a guide to the pure blood. The Amstaff's test showed they had no outside Bulldog or Terrier blood in them. So they were used as part of the test. Some of the Boudreaux' dogs I had here also tested pure except for added bulldog blood. There were five pitbulls that were littermates tested at one Kennels and they all tested slightly different in their inherited outside blood. Now again I am not running any bloodline down. I will say that picking up dogs off the street that were good game dogs and breeding to them caused this outside blood. Anyway I can prove this was all done but still believe there are good game dogs in all bloodlines. I believe it doesn't matter what outside blood they have but it bothers me a little to know the truth. I talked to the Tester the other day and the test has been improved and they have found new markers. This means the test is correct except some new outside markers have been found so there may be more outside blood than the first test showed.
Pit Bull Committed
03-25-2014, 06:36 AM
About 20 years ago. There was a group of people who approached me do some donating of blood from my dogs to test what all breeds of dogs were in them. They were trying to see what outside blood might cause them to bite people. Yet the test didn't fix the problem. I never had taken blood from a dog before. So I contacted a friend of mine who worked for a vet. We took blood from my dogs and several friends dogs. Now all the dogs that were tested had trash in them at that time. My abe dog was almost pure with minute parts of Terrier. He had like 1/1000 outside blood. Most of the outside blood in the dogs were English,Boston,Boxer and other bulldog types. There were some with different blood of Terrier types. The trashest were the Mayday dogs and I'm not running them down. They are as game as any other bloodline of dogs today. This trash didn't seem to hurt their gameness and they just had minute amounts of the outside blood. They had Lab and retriever in them. I had three Mayday dogs here from different yards. They all had the Lab and retriever in them. One dog that was tested belonged to a friend of mine. He was a two time winner and was Boudreaux and Nigger on his pedigree and he was tested. His blood showed to be a mix of Bulldog and terrier but had none of the origional pitbull blood. They used Amstaffs as a guide to the pure blood. The Amstaff's test showed they had no outside Bulldog or Terrier blood in them. So they were used as part of the test. Some of the Boudreaux' dogs I had here also tested pure except for added bulldog blood. There were five pitbulls that were littermates tested at one Kennels and they all tested slightly different in their inherited outside blood. Now again I am not running any bloodline down. I will say that picking up dogs off the street that were good game dogs and breeding to them caused this outside blood. Anyway I can prove this was all done but still believe there are good game dogs in all bloodlines. I believe it doesn't matter what outside blood they have but it bothers me a little to know the truth. I talked to the Tester the other day and the test has been improved and they have found new markers. This means the test is correct except some new outside markers have been found so there may be more outside blood than the first test showed.
Very interesting! I'm not surprised! ;)
Ditto Foxman. That is a very interesting read. Why I always liked the Pete Spark's dog picture standard, that was shown on his magazines. Preferred the dogs with a more older standard Bull Terrier build with a rat tail that was swung down low. Not curled above the tail or flagged up when excited or in a prey drive mode. With a tight seal skin type hair.
Overtime I noticed as the dogs were being bred larger and seeing more catch weight dogs used. You did not see as many tight haired seal skinned bull terrier type looking pit dogs. The hair was courser and longer with some dogs showing solid blue black tongues. I do not wish to rain on any ones parade or demean dogs. I had my share of worthless curs like anyone else no matter how they looked or were bred.
Without a blood testing mentioned above by Mr. Fox, no one could say for sure one way or the other. Just my humble opinion of what I saw and R. Braddock brought to my attention one time at a dog show. We were watching one of Bramlett's Snake dog pulling events. I was studying this dog and when he got hot and his mouth came open, Braddock elbowed me and said look at that dog's mouth and tongue, that dog has some Chow or Chinese fighting dog in him. If I remember correctly the center fold picture of Bramlett's Snake. The dog stands just like a Tosa dog with his tail curled over his back with small button ears and the face mask markings like a Tosa.
Back in the early 70's. Mr. Pratt, Atlas Brewer/Rex Byrd knew about a yard of Chinese Fighting dogs that had been brought into this country. The dog man that had these dogs lived not to far from Atlas Brewer. He did try his dogs out on the pit bull dogs. Not to long after that a Chinese guy was on the (I've got a secret TV show) claiming he was the first dog breeder to bring this breed of dog into the USA. I was thinking that was a lot of Bull. Atlas took me, V.J., G. Cox to a dog yard that had about ten of those suckers running around on dog chain hook ups. This owner of the Chinese dogs had some pit bulls also. True or not was just a rumor that some experimental breeding was tried between the two breeds.
Another old time breeder that had some dogs that shows up in some bloodlines today. Had in his very last years some dogs I tried out. These dogs were devastating in a practice dog pulling exercise. Would tear a dog down and just up and walk away and no longer show any interest in the other dog. These dogs were not afraid or cur acting just seemed to become bored of the beaten dog. As I studied these dogs, noticed the hair was thicker and courser and the dogs had a thick otter type tail instead of a bull terrier type rat tail. Overtime As I spent time talking with this much older dog man. He made mention that there was a big male Chesapeake Bay Retriever that ran loose in his community and antagonized his dogs time to time. LOL
Why I was always more particle to the smaller dogs. But some of my last dogs were big dogs off the Carver Bullyson dogs. Sometimes the bigger they get the more mastiff or bull dogge looking they get. Two other dogs come to my mind that were weird looking. One was the picture of Ralph Greenwood's Granny bitch, the other was a picture of a brindle dog said to be a picture of Mayfield's Snake (R. Jackson's Ratter) that V.J. and self used in our blood lines. When I saw that picture, maybe just a bad shot or angle. I said to myself, damn if I had knew that was what Snake looked like. I would have passed up that breeding. The Mayfield's Snake dog was ugly as Greenwood's Granny bitch. LOL
With ADBA allowing these new fangled dogs called Bully dogs to be registered as a A.P.B.T. Our breed of dogs may be in even greater danger of losing it's truer bloodline ancestry. Which I might add I like the looks of those Bully dogs for a pet dog over a English or mixed English pit bull dog. LOL
P.S. the old timer I mentioned was just one certain breeding he had made. I tried these dogs along with R. Morris. None panned out and were put down. This older breeder bred many top notch dogs over the years that could get it on. One being the roughest, hardest biting bitch I ever saw. The honorable Edward's Molly Bee. Cheers
SteelyDan
03-25-2014, 09:01 AM
Im not doubting that there is something in our dogs woodpile. I have never found much evidence that suggests those breed tests mean much though.
Foxman
03-25-2014, 09:39 AM
SreelyDan, I agree with you that the breed test means very little. Mayday stuff is proof of that. They are good game dogs. I didn't tell the story to discourage anyone away from any bloodline. Just thought their was something strange in the pitbull that I have noticed in the appearance since the beginning of my pitbull life. The different appearances of pitbulls in general is a blueprint to what the test all show. They vary from slim hound look to Boxie looks. Some long bodied with a dashhound body and short legs. Some tall with a greatdane or greyhound build. Some thick long tails some short keen tails. Ears shaped ever way in the world that a ear can be shaped. Many an unknown dog was bred to a good bitch. That male was got off the street. If that dog could fight and win with bite or gameness he was bred to. That is where i think the weird blood came from. Just my opinion. Randy Fox
Bolioman
03-25-2014, 01:09 PM
We'll its no different than any other dog, all dogs are a mixture of different breeds till a certain standard is achieved depending on what you are breeding for protection, sport, hunting ect once that dog its giving a specific breed name, we cant just disregard the fact that they are molded out of different breeds just my 2 cents.
Interesting post for sure. I have suspected this for a long time now. As I read and look throught old pics it seems clear to me that around the late 60s or 70s I guess the dogs started looking very different than those of the previous generation. Seems like about the time the new crop of breeders became prominent and Carver and Beaudroux became highly influential. No surprise after hearing about all the funny business specially with carver and his peds. I've always felt like carver in particular seemed like a guy who liked to experiment. Doesn't matter tho the dog is what it is i reckon and those dogs were badass anyway u look at it.
I would be interested to see test results on Chinaman/Frisco and tight straight Red Boy
Black Hand
08-14-2017, 08:24 AM
I'm pretty sure Tom has been doing that cross for a while now.
those old tests were like human ones were the tell you your part Scandinavian.
Verry interesting none the less.
I see some major problems with these tests. If the baseline APBT blood they're comparing against is AmStaff blood, then of course our dogs aren't going to match. I'm not saying that crosses never happened or that our dogs are wholly pure, but I have little confidence in this test's ability to accurately find those crosses.
Black Hand
08-14-2017, 01:59 PM
There are recent incidents of crossing happening. I remember someone on another board getting a pup that was half bird-dog. That was one guy that come forward. How about the ppl that didn't go online and didn't see the thread. They got the baddest bird dog alive and don't even know it :D imagine how many times this has taken place over the last 50 years.
IWK. Sadly, the best Genetic foundational dogs our dogs are founded off of. Is residing in the old Am Staff linages. The AM Staff breeders have lost the gaminess by breeding for show and not the go. As late as the 70's there was still some good game Am Staff blood around. We all like the good Carver dogs etc. Some of Peggy Harper's Am Staff resides in some of that older stock.
A old breeder(Mr. Dailey) of the Charles Doyles-Ferris Tacoma Am Staff dogs lived in Sumter S.C. Was about a forty five mile drive from my home town. This was back in the early to mid 70's. When myself and first dog partner went to see Mr. Dailey and check out his dogs. As I was looking at them I said to Mr. Bailey, these dogs resemble some of those Maurice Carver dogs I have been seeing in my dog magazines. He laughed and said well Mrs. Peggy Harper lives right down the road from ole Maurice. Have heard they were pretty tight friends.
His dogs were bought by various dog men around that area. Many of his dogs gave very good accounts against the local S.C. APBT. One I remember was called Foots that was a 3x winner. Scotty Mc'neil bred his, later my Young's Chuck dog to Foots. I told Scotty at that time I wanted to buy maybe a male and female out of the litter. When I visited him later to look at the weaned pups. Foots and pups were long gone. Would not tell me who he sold them too. Believe they went down Georgia way with maybe bogus papers. Never found out for sure.
IMHO, the Am Staff genetic gene pool would be a excellent reference point. Since these dogs would have had far less exposer to any outside trash breeding.
Black Hand
08-14-2017, 07:50 PM
That and a Colby dog.
IWK. Sadly, the best Genetic foundational dogs our dogs are founded off of. Is residing in the old Am Staff linages. The AM Staff breeders have lost the gaminess by breeding for show and not the go. As late as the 70's there was still some good game Am Staff blood around. We all like the good Carver dogs etc. Some of Peggy Harper's Am Staff resides in some of that older stock.
A old breeder(Mr. Dailey) of the Charles Doyles-Ferris Tacoma Am Staff dogs lived in Sumter S.C. Was about a forty five mile drive from my home town. This was back in the early to mid 70's. When myself and first dog partner went to see Mr. Dailey and check out his dogs. As I was looking at them I said to Mr. Bailey, these dogs resemble some of those Maurice Carver dogs I have been seeing in my dog magazines. He laughed and said well Mrs. Peggy Harper lives right down the road from ole Maurice. Have heard they were pretty tight friends.
His dogs were bought by various dog men around that area. Many of his dogs gave very good accounts against the local S.C. APBT. One I remember was called Foots that was a 3x winner. Scotty Mc'neil bred his, later my Young's Chuck dog to Foots. I told Scotty at that time I wanted to buy maybe a male and female out of the litter. When I visited him later to look at the weaned pups. Foots and pups were long gone. Would not tell me who he sold them too. Believe they went down Georgia way with maybe bogus papers. Never found out for sure.
IMHO, the Am Staff genetic gene pool would be a excellent reference point. Since these dogs would have had far less exposer to any outside trash breeding.
That's interesting. You think even today the AmStaffs are less likely to have been crossed than ours?
Ditto IWK, a excellent and valid question. It may be so or not so for some of those newer AM Staff bloodlines. Some of these newer AM Staffs have a body build more like a English Staffordshire or a colored English Bull Terrier. A Short and Blockier build.
The Am Staffs of the 60's and into the mid 70's still looked like the older Pete Sparks Your Friend and Mine dog standard. Those Show dog type persons, keep a close eye on their dogs and the ones they plan to breed. Being they are more fanatic about a show looks standard. A bitch dog in heat would be put up and closely watched. After being bred to Sir Williams of Tuff Town. LOL
I have seen some pictures of some breeders claiming they have the older AM Staff bloodlines and not bred for show. To me the pictures showed them to be just so, so, average looking dogs. Nothing like those Doyle-Ferris Tacoma dogs.
Some of the old original English Bull Terriers. Appear to still be intact over in India. They look like the older version of those dogs. Over there they are still used on wild boar etc. and probably some vigorous dog showing. You can see some of those dogs on the You Tube.
I have read that Komosinski (may have) bred a very game English bull terrier into his Colby/Clark/Armitage dogs. He had a tough one on his yard. Take a good look at Cotton's Bullet dog's picture. Ole Bullet could have passed for a nice looking old time Am Staff back then. Cheers
I would like to see that blood test done on some of those recent Black &Tan type Sorrell's dogs. Believe it is his wife or daughter still breeding that line today. I could be very wrong and will stand corrected. Some one told me in a conversation years back they also raised Rottweiler's.
Good stuff CYJ. I too would love to see that blood test on the Sorrell's black & tans. Ultimately, I don't really care if our dogs are pure. If outcrossing them somehow brought in some performance aspect we couldn't get within the breed, then I have no problem with it. I know a lot of folks will call blasphemy on that, but I can see it being valuable.
Black Hand
08-15-2017, 07:22 PM
I wouldn't care either. I think the array of different traits and phenotypes is a huge part of my enjoyment in dogs. I'm not really a breed purist, couldn't even really tell you the Adba standard or any other club's standard. I breed dogs how I like em, not how some other guy likes them. If it's a mixture of other breeds that gives us such flexibility to go our own way and forge our own road to the perfect dog then I like it that way.
Ditto Black Hand. Those Colby dogs that the Colby family still breed would be a excellent reference to add. Those would be close to the older original standard. Another would be some of that Hemphill bloodline. That Iron side Kennels carried on from the last Hemphill dogs Jake Wilder had. Cheers
Black Hand
08-15-2017, 07:34 PM
I'd be more interested in just seeing how closely related modern families are to each other. How genetically similar is a Boudreaux Reno bred dog to a cottingham's bear bred dog.
I would like to see that blood test done on some of those recent Black &Tan type Sorrell's dogs. Believe it is his wife or daughter still breeding that line today. I could be very wrong and will stand corrected. Some one told me in a conversation years back they also raised Rottweiler's.
CYJ. The history of this breed is truly amazing and I would like to make a conversation about it one day. But the breed originated from Manny different terriers and what not. The black and tan was one of the main ones, the Noonan strain is commonly refferd to as the Noonans black and tan. This is turn of the century pit bulls 30 years before akc staffs. For instance fly was 11lbs and her grand dam also
CYJ. The history of this breed is truly amazing and I would like to make a conversation about it one day. But the breed originated from Manny different terriers and what not. The black and tan was one of the main ones, the Noonan strain is commonly refferd to as the Noonans black and tan. This is turn of the century pit bulls 30 years before akc staffs. For instance fly was 11lbs and her grand dam also
CYJ I'm with you on this argument. Those flashy tri colored dogs didn't pop up in the Sorrells dogs until Tatonka started breeding them. I've seen the old Carver's Iron Head type crosses throw a widows peak shadow coloring on reds and buckskin dogs. But tri color rottweiler/staff markings? I'm callin bullshit on those dogs, just my opinion.
S_B
Ditto Lonz on the Noonan dogs of yesterday. I had at one time all of the Pete Sparks books along with most of the old bloodlines magazines. I only read of one noted black and tan I believe back in the fifties that won matches and showed deep game. I personally, never read, seen or heard of anymore, till I saw these Tatonka dogs. Since I had only seen mostly buckskin dogs coming from those Bert Sorrell dogs for over thirty years. Wondered about the sudden color change in those later Sorrell dogs.
I really did not wish to name Mr. Beal., who was up in age at that time. But I got some dogs off I believe his Heinzl Hobo cross. While I was there that day, visiting and later taking a few of those young dogs back with me. He mentioned about a Chesapeake Bay retriever running around the neighborhood causing a ruckus with his dogs etc.
As these dogs came of age I began to notice these dogs had those big otter tails and a inner coat like most water dogs have. Long story short. These dogs were devastating, had no fear of any size dog. Problem was, once they had put the other dog in the floor. Would walk away and cared nothing about scratching back. I put these all down. When you see odd looks on APBT dogs and they do weird stuff like that. You can probably guess you have some sort of trash that has crept in your dogs.
Not A good idea to say so what and pass it on. Just when you got the most sitting on the line in a show event and the yellow in the corn has gotten a extra good grinding. You will find yourself with a so called CH killer looking up at you saying. PA PA can we go home and hunt some ducks. LOL Cheers
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=19803
The retriever cross tot he APBT is one of the more frequent accidents. If the female challenges the retriever he will normally just move on as with other chained males. If she does not he is smart enough to maneuver his way through the dogs to find his sweet heart.
My brother in law has two that run his farm. They both look like 60-70lb pit bulls wearing a retriever coat/wide tail. For three plus years they do not fight one another. They roam at night and bring any four legged furry creature to his porch for his approval the following morning. He recently lost one to a bear. He had these huge, deep and penetrating scratch marks. Wide as all get out. They finally found a furry creature out of their weight class. But fit the bill.
My buddy traded a Mims/Eli bred bitch for two Midnight/RBJ dogs. Paperwork most would dream of. Straight off Midnight Jr. Two of the blackest and best looking puppies anyone would ever care to own. Straight walk away killers. They were big and thick and well built dogs. They had course like hair as they grew up. They had a wide thick tail at the base and the hair had a slight fan as it made its way down the tail. The male had the beginnings of webbed feet, not all out webbing, but more skin between the toes than a bulldog should have. Both had ungodly mouth. It was hard to stay with them for 20-25 minutes. But they gave a brand new meaning to the phrase, 'swimming in the deep water'. They would maul and walk away. They would both scratch if it were competitive but if either had an advantage coming out of hold they would not scratch.
Rumor was the RBJ bottom half had a Lab wonder onto the yard. The female was bred to another bulldog and had pups. One of the 'straight RBJ' pups was raised and then bred to Midnight Jr. She was a buckskin bitch and had an entire litter of all solid black pups.
I have never thought any of it was intentional. I think it was an accident and it took that second breeding for it to come out in the wash. It happens. The worst part is the female gave it up before the male. The male had stopped a couple of well thought of bulldogs. If he had been an a yard that bred a lot of dogs he had more than likely did enough to be bred. Fortunately for all involved he landed on a yard that was 'match or bust' . He ended up being a walk away bust.
My Grandma use to tell us not to shake our family tree too hard, there is just no telling what might fall out. I'm guessing dogs no different.
EWO
Wow. I have heard the lab mix about a few dogs.
M.O.W.LIGHTNINGSTRIKES
08-17-2017, 09:20 AM
Very very interesting to know these things occur 1st hand I always thought that about a few I've seen .... just like that guy with the hulk dog trying to say he's pure apbt .. pure bullshit he's got Neapolitan mastiff in him 100 % that's why it's good to get something u like and cultivate it to your liking. That's exactly what I've tried to do with my hounds and if I see something that has that oooh aww effect then I'll try to coordinate a breeding with something of mine
LOL EWO, I like that quote from your grandma!
I could very well write a book on the knowledge she was dropping. LOL
When it is other breed trash I think it comes to light a little easier than say, a paper hanging situation.
There was a guy in VA that had a winning son off of GRCH Virgil. He was a big dog. He was bred to a female that produced a 110lb. pit bull. Extremely athletic and a really good looking dog. The female was at least 1/2 if not all American Bulldog. I mean there is catch weight and then there is catch weight. 100lb pit bulls just do not come around all that often.
That guy not only hung papers, he added 'trash'. One a little easier to detect than others.
EWO