poncho line crossed to chinaman

[mag1971]

has anyone done it and how were the results???????????

[Officially Retired]

has anyone done it and how were the results???????????


The results have produced Champions and some really badass dogs, like most crosses from my line. For example:

Jackson's Ch Violent (3xW) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=310762)[/*:m:sqwkcji1]
Jackson's 45 (2xW) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=54551)[/*:m:sqwkcji1]
Wldchild's Sir Lancelot (1xW) DG (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=184245)[/*:m:sqwkcji1]
And actually, if you study his pedigrees, you will see that all Garner has ever done to maintain his own bloodline, pretty much, is mix his Chinaman dogs with other Bolio/Hollingsworth/Crum-type dogs ;)

Hope this helps,

Jack

.

[YigYang]

The Breeding that made Jakcson's 45, and Violent was a very successful breeding that i think any real dog man will be proud to own

[wrongway]

What ever happened to 45? I remember seeing jack post about how he was a really good face dog? Did he produce the same?

[Officially Retired]

I don't know the guys who had 45, but from what I heard MOK tell me they were street runners with an ace in their hands.

MOK was personally at nearly every single deal that Gr Ch Amboss was involved in, he personally knew his owner and he thought a lot of Amboss and in fact bred to him before he went back to his breeder. However, MOK said 45 was in a class by himself, with even more ability and 10x the mouth. While this might sound like an exaggeration, we're talking about a dog in 45 who DOA'd his opponents in :18 and :19 ... on the head ... he crushed their skulls ... while also being a super-slick, untouchable head dog himself. In his last deal, it was a $20,000 contract, and yet the guy picked up in :18 ... but still couldn't save his dog :shock:

MOK told me that he is always just a little bit nervous before any deal, but if he had 45 himself he would have been 100% confident going into any dog that has ever lived, at even weight, that is how much he thought of the dog. MOK said he was far better than his very good Champion sister Violent, but that 45 was just in the wrong hands and never reached the potential he would have reached in truly excellent hands.

Jack


.

[AL Clown]

I don't like to call people liars or say things when they are not able to defend themselves. Alot of the info you have on 45 and V is correct as I am the person tha shape 45 for is 1st and my good friend did the handling. 45 is was a beast and is producing dogs as good or better which is hard to believe because he is a once in a lifetime dog. Currently he has a 3xw son that is said to be much better then 45.

On a side not we also made CH I-20 who was also whelped at MOK. So to say I have some 1st hand knowledge would be accurate. I still have the number for 45 owner and put another friend in touch with him just recently.

[Officially Retired]

I don't like to call people liars or say things when they are not able to defend themselves. Alot of the info you have on 45 and V is correct as I am the person tha shape 45 for is 1st and my good friend did the handling. 45 is was a beast and is producing dogs as good or better which is hard to believe because he is a once in a lifetime dog. Currently he has a 3xw son that is said to be much better then 45.
On a side not we also made CH I-20 who was also whelped at MOK. So to say I have some 1st hand knowledge would be accurate. I still have the number for 45 owner and put another friend in touch with him just recently.

What lies were told Al Clown? Did you mean by me or by MOK?

I know you have first-hand experience with the dog, so I would appreciate it if you would help clarify what you said.

Also, how is his son bred on the bottom, and in what ways is he excelling his sire?

Thanks,

Jack

[AL Clown]

I said some of the info you have is correct meaning, you was given one man opinion on the accounts of these people and their dogs not that you mis-rep the info you was given. Don't get me wrong I'm no fan of 45 owner but I wasn't a fan of Chad either. And I am sure alot of people will say I have a way of rubbing people wrong, but I always keep it 100% when it comes to dogs.

As far as the particular I can't give any detail, but I was told he was a beast and probably even better then his sire.
littermate to this female: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=267998 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=267998)

The dam to 45 & V was a good producer. She actually through bulldogs breed to your blood, Hammonds blood, and line breed. I have (or rather my mom has) a nice male that blends some of your blood and Moe: http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=304911 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=304911)

[Officially Retired]

Well, I apologize if I said anything wrong about the owner and who had/did 45.

Perhaps it is best just to leave personality differences aside, and just stick to dog talk. In hindsight, I should have just said, "45 was considered a once-in-a-lifetime dog by most people who saw him, but (for whatever reason) never was shown passed his second," and left it like that,

Making value judgments on other people, especially without firsthand knowledge, was wrong of me to do ... and we both have people who don't think too well of us for that matter :lol: :mrgreen: ... so let's just stick to the quality of dogs and leave all personality conflicts aside.

Anyway, thank you for answering the question as to the pedigree; it looks like 45 was mated to a well bred (and in some ways similar-bred) bitch to carry on the tradition.

Hope he does well, and I am glad to hear 45 is doing all right.

Jack

.

[AL Clown]

If you noticed that was a bitch I owned and also damn to my Chopper dog that was breed to Poncho Bell.
I gave Twister to a friend and he sent her to the guy that did the breeding with 45.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... g_id=75946 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=75946)

There was no dog 38# to 40# that could last 30 mins with 45, not even my Chopper dog, and Chopper 1st was into a CH that had KIA everything in under 20 mins himself. Chopper went 55 mins and we both lost our dogs. 45 started slow but finish you quick, it seem like he got pissed only after he got hit. What I liked about him the most was his attitude, he was laid back and a real loving dog.

[Officially Retired]

If you noticed that was a bitch I owned and also damn to my Chopper dog that was breed to Poncho Bell.
I gave Twister to a friend and he sent her to the guy that did the breeding with 45.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... g_id=75946 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=75946)
There was no dog 38# to 40# that could last 30 mins with 45, not even my Chopper dog, and Chopper 1st was into a CH that had KIA everything in under 20 mins himself. Chopper went 55 mins and we both lost our dogs. 45 started slow but finish you quick, it seem like he got pissed only after he got hit. What I liked about him the most was his attitude, he was laid back and a real loving dog.

I did notice! And Choppa sure was a well-built dog, damn.

45 sounds like the perfect bulldog: calm and quiet ... unless you cross that line with him ... and then there was no forgiveness.

[YigYang]

I don't like to call people liars or say things when they are not able to defend themselves. Alot of the info you have on 45 and V is correct as I am the person tha shape 45 for is 1st and my good friend did the handling. 45 is was a beast and is producing dogs as good or better which is hard to believe because he is a once in a lifetime dog. Currently he has a 3xw son that is said to be much better then 45.

On a side not we also made CH I-20 who was also whelped at MOK. So to say I have some 1st hand knowledge would be accurate. I still have the number for 45 owner and put another friend in touch with him just recently.

I know where you are coming from. It may or may not be true, what what i have heard and what you have heard is just "hear say there say", am i correct?
Alot of times its just hype because everyone wants to have the best dog, and there is no way anyone of us can change us, its just the way humans are. :arrow: ;)

[AL Clown]

True we are all human and and sometimes our opinons and views tend to differ. However, we can still be adults, act civil and agree to disagree.

The bottom line is the pairing of Diamond Dude and Moe was great, and 45 was without a doubt one of if not the best in that litter. V and Elmo 1XL had to prove their heart in their deals so I have alot of respect for them. Sampson never showed any real interest and Chicago had the biggest heart of them all. Chicago had more time in the woods then the rest of the litter combine. Because I am good friends with the owner of Moe, I had access to most of this litter and owned Chicago and Sampson at one time.

[STORMY]

If you noticed that was a bitch I owned and also damn to my Chopper dog that was breed to Poncho Bell.
I gave Twister to a friend and he sent her to the guy that did the breeding with 45.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... g_id=75946 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=75946)

There was no dog 38# to 40# that could last 30 mins with 45, not even my Chopper dog, and Chopper 1st was into a CH that had KIA everything in under 20 mins himself. Chopper went 55 mins and we both lost our dogs. 45 started slow but finish you quick, it seem like he got pissed only after he got hit. What I liked about him the most was his attitude, he was laid back and a real loving dog.


yeap nice lil dog 45

jack you remember i put you on the phone with the owners around 06/07 about a breeding we all thought would have made a history impact we just couldn't get it togther.

[Officially Retired]

yeap nice lil dog 45
jack you remember i put you on the phone with the owners around 06/07 about a breeding we all thought would have made a history impact we just couldn't get it togther.

I remember the phone call & convo ... but remind me of the bitch (was it Dirty Diamond?).

[thefoodchain]

has anyone done it and how were the results???????????


The results have produced Champions and some really badass dogs, like most crosses from my line. For example:

Jackson's Ch Violent (3xW) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=310762)[/*:m:29ipxk42]
Jackson's 45 (2xW) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=54551)[/*:m:29ipxk42]
Wldchild's Sir Lancelot (1xW) DG (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=184245)[/*:m:29ipxk42]
And actually, if you study his pedigrees, you will see that all Garner has ever done to maintain his own bloodline, pretty much, is mix his Chinaman dogs with other Bolio/Hollingsworth/Crum-type dogs ;)

Hope this helps,

Jack

.

Excellent and accurate point. T.G. himself said "the Bolio blood took my program to a whole other level" And I as a fan of excellence. It take's a lot in a very ego drive endeavor to give credit to another individual. I myself am a striving for the same along a similar approach but with a different twist. But with all that said the foundation remains the same "SOLID". On a different note CA Jack, my first post on the forum. Been a fan from a far for YEARS. I solemly hope this will stay an place for the pursuit of knowledge and not a cyber cess pool.
God Bless & Best Wishes
"Dax"

[Officially Retired]

Excellent and accurate point. T.G. himself said "the Bolio blood took my program to a whole other level" And I as a fan of excellence. It take's a lot in a very ego drive endeavor to give credit to another individual. I myself am a striving for the same along a similar approach but with a different twist. But with all that said the foundation remains the same "SOLID". On a different note CA Jack, my first post on the forum. Been a fan from a far for YEARS. I solemly hope this will stay an place for the pursuit of knowledge and not a cyber cess pool.
God Bless & Best Wishes
"Dax"

Thank you for your nice statements, Dax, and welcome to the forum.

Longtime breeders like Garner know which dogs are producing what traits on their yard and know which dogs to use to draw out of them whatever traits they are desiring with a particular breeding.

I am glad you've got your own recipe going, and I wish you all the success in continuously achieving your goals with it.

Cheers,

Jack

[STORMY]

yeap nice lil dog 45
jack you remember i put you on the phone with the owners around 06/07 about a breeding we all thought would have made a history impact we just couldn't get it togther.

I remember the phone call & convo ... but remind me of the bitch (was it Dirty Diamond?).


yes it was D.D

[STONEWALL]

This isn't a Poncho / Chinaman cross but similarly bred to that cross. This is the pedigree of one of the foundation dogs of my Bolio line dogs.

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=377501 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=377501)

[Officially Retired]

This isn't a Poncho / Chinaman cross but similarly bred to that cross. This is the pedigree of one of the foundation dogs of my Bolio line dogs.
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/pu ... _id=377501 (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=377501)


I agree it is similar, since Tessy and Ch Hammer were both really brother/sister to Wichita's Ch Blaze (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=71839) ;)

[No Quarter Kennel]

I don't know the guys who had 45, but from what I heard MOK tell me they were street runners with an ace in their hands.

MOK was personally at nearly every single deal that Gr Ch Amboss was involved in, he personally knew his owner and he thought a lot of Amboss and in fact bred to him before he went back to his breeder. However, MOK said 45 was in a class by himself, with even more ability and 10x the mouth. While this might sound like an exaggeration, we're talking about a dog in 45 who DOA'd his opponents in :18 and :19 ... on the head ... he crushed their skulls ... while also being a super-slick, untouchable head dog himself. In his last deal, it was a $20,000 contract, and yet the guy picked up in :18 ... but still couldn't save his dog :shock:

MOK told me that he is always just a little bit nervous before any deal, but if he had 45 himself he would have been 100% confident going into any dog that has ever lived, at even weight, that is how much he thought of the dog. MOK said he was far better than his very good Champion sister Violent, but that 45 was just in the wrong hands and never reached the potential he would have reached in truly excellent hands.

Jack


.

Jack - I'm assuming you are talking about Mountain Oak Kennels.
If so, please let him know, Ferg, of No Quarter Kennel is on your board. He had some of my stuff, the Hammonds Alligator stuff, that really did well for him up there. I'd like to touch base.

Thank you

[Officially Retired]

Jack - I'm assuming you are talking about Mountain Oak Kennels.
If so, please let him know, Ferg, of No Quarter Kennel is on your board. He had some of my stuff, the Hammonds Alligator stuff, that really did well for him up there. I'd like to touch base.
Thank you


Sorry to say, MOK got out of the dogs a few years ago. He was always a cool dude with me and the stud he got from me (Diamond Dude) produced many good dogs for him.

I very much do remember MOK telling me about an Alligator-bred stud he had, that was game as hell also, and that he was really high on as well, so I am assuming that came from you :)

Cheers,

Jack