Redboy / jocko has made more dead game dogs !

[cdj396]

well all I got to say is REDBOY SNOOTY

[Officially Retired]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=611&d=1399664573

Fat Bill sent me the match reports on Zabo.

Stacy conditioned and handled for Chavis. The dog was reported as a winner in one of the '89 Journals that time as Chavis' Jojo.
Cannot find the pedigree on him though ...

Anyway, notice how Hollingsworth's Riot (aka: Davis' Redman) took Zabo longer than all 4 other dogs did, put together.
That's what I am talking about regarding gameness and durability ...

But he didn't win though, Zabo won, an Eli/Carver dog.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Not to mention maymay made short work of gr ch chi chi

[swampdawg]

Most shows seem different through the eyes of individuals.The show between Mayday and the Cody dog is a good example of how diff.people see things differently.I heard MD was detroying Cody,then I heard from someone else that the only reason MD won was because DT picked up to sell him to Big NateN.

[EWO]

Hopefully it does not get shut down. It was off to a good start, had some low points but now is back to some historical data. I have often said I am as big a fan of the history of the dogs as the dogs themselves. EWO

[EWO]

Most shows seem different through the eyes of individuals.The show between Mayday and the Cody dog is a good example of how diff.people see things differently.I heard MD was detroying Cody,then I heard from someone else that the only reason MD won was because DT picked up to sell him to Big NateN.

This happens a lot. I know two older fellows who saw Mt. Man's Bandit. I can remember them damn near coming to blows over his standing the line. One swears he was stopped and could not go, and the other swears he straight quit. I was not there so I just listen to both sides and that is pretty much the end of it.

Ch. Cotton was had a very impressive 1st win. His conditioner f'ed him up for #2. He was on shaky ground late in #2. The other dog quit first. No one in the building would have kept except one person. He bought him for peanuts. Brought him back out and beat F. Chavis with one of those Jocko dogs.

I lost to one of the roughest bitches I have ever seen. I picked up because I was five minutes away from not having a dog to bring home. Just flat got bit down. I made several game scratches and when it was not going to work I picked up. I paid my money. When asked, I said the other dog won but was a cur, and I just did not have enough dog to find out. I was called a hater. That bitch was sold for some heavy $$$$ pit side. She was brought back out for even more $$$ and hung it up in less than :20, sooner than that if it had been a handle made.


Happens all the time. A lot like beauty, gameness is in the eye of the beholder, there is only about 10,000 definitions. A person must know what he is looking for before he can know what he is looking at. It takes all kinds. EWO

[Officially Retired]

That is a great post EWO, except I'd say that last part in reverse: a person must know what he's looking AT before he can select what he's looking for :idea:

Jack

[EWO]

I think it works both ways. It was something that was told to me many moons ago. I sort of like it the opposite way I posted it as well, but I always repeat it the way Mr. Hughes said it, mostly out of respect.

I think the statement said either way is why heavy mouthed dogs get a pass, and then late in the game they hang it up. Mouth "hides" a lot of faults for a lot of people. EWO

[bamaman]

There was definitely some Dibo in Ch Jocko (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=385), but there was less than 5% Goldie.
Point taken .It jmo .

[Pit Bull Committed]

Lmfao!!! Jack, looks like RBJ fans are asking you to shut down this post! You've backed up your statement and provided facts that are too overwhelming to take. :) Interesting comparison on the Fat bill Zabo matches. :)

[waccamaw]

Lmfao!!! Jack, looks like RBJ fans are asking you to shut down this post! You've backed up your statement and provided facts that are too overwhelming to take. :) Interesting comparison on the Fat bill Zabo matches. :)

Not so true ,on the facts ,some things are better not said and jack knows it .anything that gets said on here will be used against you .,don't think big brother is not sitting back and taking notes .
And abouth the mayday Cody deal Cody was not tants dogs nor was he in a keep .have Cyj check on it he is from sc. The guy that owned him was from lake city is all I will say .

[waccamaw]

Lmfao!!! Jack, looks like RBJ fans are asking you to shut down this post! You've backed up your statement and provided facts that are too overwhelming to take. :) Interesting comparison on the Fat bill Zabo matches. :)
On the pitbull data base ,who do you think puts the data in ?

[evolutionkennels]

I think it works both ways. It was something that was told to me many moons ago. I sort of like it the opposite way I posted it as well, but I always repeat it the way Mr. Hughes said it, mostly out of respect.

I think the statement said either way is why heavy mouthed dogs get a pass, and then late in the game they hang it up. Mouth "hides" a lot of faults for a lot of people. EWO


I agree 100% furthermore.. the Bolio tombstone dogs are one thing, but to classify them together with all carved dogs is like saying the penicillin you buy at the feed store is the same as vancomycin. It's not. Yeah.. you can bring Eli carved for mouth, ,but unless it's got any tombstone Bolio or redboy jocko, they seldom make 45 minutes if they run into one that can give it as good as they can. Mouth does give a lot of dogs a free food pass. And you may see an 8xw, 7xw with all that good ole Eli blood,but what you don't talk about is the 8 siblings that quit.

[Officially Retired]

Not so true ,on the facts ,some things are better not said and jack knows it .anything that gets said on here will be used against you .,don't think big brother is not sitting back and taking notes .
And abouth the mayday Cody deal Cody was not tants dogs nor was he in a keep .have Cyj check on it he is from sc. The guy that owned him was from lake city is all I will say .

I don't think you'd like what CJY sent me privately about RB dogs ;)




On the pitbull data base ,who do you think puts the data in ?

Sonny, please stop saying stupid things. There are almost 40,000 dogs in here, or which I have put in about 900 animals.

This database is simply a conglomerate of what HUNDREDS of people have put in here ... and, as I said, YOU TELL ME what ultra-high-winning RBJ dogs exist ... or admit that they don't.

YOU CAN'T because THEY DON'T EXIST.

There is no boogeyman here. It's not "hating." It is simply THE FACTS OF THE GAME. Deal with them.

You have simply made a bunch of unfounded claims for which you don't have THE FACTS to back up.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I agree 100% furthermore.. the Bolio tombstone dogs are one thing, but to classify them together with all carved dogs is like saying the penicillin you buy at the feed store is the same as vancomycin. It's not. Yeah.. you can bring Eli carved for mouth, ,but unless it's got any tombstone Bolio or redboy jocko, they seldom make 45 minutes if they run into one that can give it as good as they can. Mouth does give a lot of dogs a free food pass. And you may see an 8xw, 7xw with all that good ole Eli blood,but what you don't talk about is the 8 siblings that quit.

That was well said !!!!!

[waccamaw]

I don't think you'd like what CJY sent me privately about RB dogs ;)





Sonny, please stop saying stupid things. There are almost 40,000 dogs in here, or which I have put in about 900 animals.

This database is simply a conglomerate of what HUNDREDS of people have put in here ... and, as I said, YOU TELL ME what ultra-high-winning RBJ dogs exist ... or admit that they don't.

YOU CAN'T because THEY DON'T EXIST.

There is no boogeyman here. It's not "hating." It is simply THE FACTS OF THE GAME. Deal with them.

You have simply made a bunch of unfounded claims for which you don't have THE FACTS to back up.

Jack

Jack every body knows you ,except the green horns and they will soon know you (LOL)

[Officially Retired]

Jack every body knows you ,except the green horns and they will soon know you (LOL)

Sonny, I am going to warn you one final time: either show me some FACTS that dispute what I am saying, or admit that THEY DON'T EXIST.

But if you insult me one more time, I am booting your ass out of here.

If you don't have any FACTS to back up your ideas, then you need to remain silent.

But if you do have some FACTS, then by all means we'd like to see them and be set straight.

So far, NO ONE can show me a dog that has won more than 6 fights that is a pure Redboy/Jocko dog. NO ONE.

By contrast, I can show you a mile-long list of Eli/Caver dogs that have done so.
I will even be more specific: Eli/BlackWidow

So either bring the facts, or sit down, but please stop running your mouth at me if you don't like THE TRUTH of what I am saying.

Thanks,

Jack

[waccamaw]

I don't think you'd like what CJY sent me privately about RB dogs ;)





Sonny, please stop saying stupid things. There are almost 40,000 dogs in here, or which I have put in about 900 animals.

This database is simply a conglomerate of what HUNDREDS of people have put in here ... and, as I said, YOU TELL ME what ultra-high-winning RBJ dogs exist ... or admit that they don't.

YOU CAN'T because THEY DON'T EXIST.

There is no boogeyman here. It's not "hating." It is simply THE FACTS OF THE GAME. Deal with them.

You have simply made a bunch of unfounded claims for which you don't have THE FACTS to back up.

Jack

Try me !you never know he might be right or he might be wrong ,but he can sure ask a few about Cody

Well jack if all these facts show the facts on all your wins !and tell us how you got poncho and those other 2 pitbulls to ride in the front seat of your truck together ,you know like when you came by the house .i truly was impressed by. That .

[waccamaw]

Is it me or is jack just trying to get somebody to say. They fight dogs ,or give up names .i may be wrong but that is what seems like .but jack you are a smart boy look them up,you will probably find some .if you was talking about hogs I could tell you a few ,,but the fighting part is out of my league .

[Officially Retired]

Try me !you never know he might be right or he might be wrong ,but he can sure ask a few about Cody
Well jack if all these facts show the facts on all your wins !and tell us how you got poncho and those other 2 pitbulls to ride in the front seat of your truck together ,you know like when you came by the house .i truly was impressed by. That .


You are a stupid man Sonny.
I told you not to keep running your mouth, but to please just stick to the facts, and you are too stupid to listen..

I've never had 3 pit bulls riding in the front seat, but I have had 2.
I guess you're also too stupid to realize that 2 badass pit bulls can be friends with each other, IF they're socialized, and IF they're the opposite sex.
But this has nothing to do with the subject.

I have asked you either to provide some FACTS, or to admit they don't exist.
You keep mentioning greenhorns, telling me to "ask somebody," and all kinds of evasive, subject-changing bullshit.
Then you tell "me" to put up "my" wins.
I will gladly compare the number of Champions and better that have come down from my dogs, but WHY DIDN'T YOU WHEN I ASKED?

Sonny, there has never been a single multi-winning dog down from YOUR line, ever.
There have been multiple such dogs down from mine. But, again, this has nothing to do with the topic.

The topic, which YOU started, stated that RBJ dogs "kill the most" and that "all the good ones" are of this combination.

I think it has been CLEARLY shown that both claims are baseless and wrong.

Now, all you're doing is attacking me, saying "I" entered all the dogs in here, and all kinds of childish, stupid shit.

I warned you to stop this nonsense, to keep this bullshit out of here, and to please just stick to THE FACTS ... and either PRODUCE THE DOGS or to ADMIT THEY DON'T EXIST.

Nothing is stopping YOU from entering in some pure RBJ dogs that have also won 6, 7, 8, and 9 shows, as I have done with pure Carver dogs and Carver/Clouse dogs.
(I didn't even bother to do this with Eli/Carver dogs because there's too many of them to do.)

You are simply a liar, a cheerleader, and canNOT have a reasonable, factual discussion based on actual historical data.

And that is a shame, but your ass is out of here for the next month.

See ya.

[Officially Retired]

Is it me or is jack just trying to get somebody to say. They fight dogs ,or give up names .i may be wrong but that is what seems like .but jack you are a smart boy look them up,you will probably find some .if you was talking about hogs I could tell you a few ,,but the fighting part is out of my league .

It's you Sonny. You're a lowlife who introduces bullshit into a discussion.

The dogs I am talking about are LONG DEAD and nobody is "in danger" for making a list of dead dogs and their accomplishments.

If you don't want to talk about bulldogs online, then don't get online and talk about them.
But if you DO talk about them, and if you DO make great big, outlandish claims about what you have, then expect to be taken to task and back up your mouth.

The truth is, you don't mind running your mouth about your dogs making other dogs "dead game" on your original post here at all.
You don't mind putting up your backyard, 3x winning dogs on this database. You don't mind talking about how your dogs "have it all."
You don't mind CLAIMING this, and CLAIMING that, but when asked to produce the actual dog names of MULTI-winning Grand Champions, you go to himmin-and-hawwin and make up a bunch of excuses. Go back to page 1 and there you are bragging about killing and deadgame.

But when somebody asks you about 5x, 6x, 7x-winning dogs from you, you start stuttering.
And when somebody cracks their knuckles, and starts pulling away the curtains to see what you got, you start running for cover like a cockroach, hissing, and getting upset that THERE ARE NO dogs of your preferred bloodline that are "up there" with the absolute baddest, winningest dogs of all time.

There was no reason to start insulting.
This was either your opportunity to back up your big claims, or to sit down and realize that it's a great big world out there.
To admit and realize there are OTHER GREAT COMBINATIONS of dogs that have actually DONE BETTER than the RBJ combination. And that is a FACT.

Again, that doesn't mean RBJ dogs aren't good, with some truly great. I never said or implied this.

But what I did want to do is stick a pin in your little "hot air balloon," and I am sorry if this (literally) burst your bubble.

You might not want to make completely false claims next time to your "green audience" ... because there are people here who know better ;)

Jack

[Officially Retired]

but to classify them together with all carved dogs is like saying the penicillin you buy at the feed store is the same as vancomycin. It's not.

Well, we're classifying all the RBJ dogs into one hat too, are we not?

And, no matter how you slice them, or mix them, the RBJ combination, by iteself, is NOT winning as many contests as ANY of the Eli/Carver combinations ... unless THEY TOO have Eli/Carver in them ... which combo already wins at that level WITHOUT RBJ :idea:

So, which combo truly is "the winningest" then?

I can even be more specific, and say IRONHEAD/BLACK WIDOW dogs ... and the record of these dogs STILL trumps every single pure RBJ combination that every existed :idea:





Yeah.. you can bring Eli carved for mouth, ,but unless it's got any tombstone Bolio or redboy jocko, they seldom make 45 minutes if they run into one that can give it as good as they can.

That is flat out untrue. Again, the greatest, winningest dogs EVER are not RBJ. Only Barracuda is up there, and he is not pure.

I agree that Bolio dogs are among, if not THE greatest Carver dogs ever ... but there are PLENTY of Boomer/Satch/ButcherBoy/Honeybunch (and a host of other) Carver dogs that have gone the route and achieved the highest accolades in APBT history. Almost all of them are Ironhead/BlackWidow-type dogs.




Mouth does give a lot of dogs a free food pass. And you may see an 8xw, 7xw with all that good ole Eli blood,but what you don't talk about is the 8 siblings that quit.

I agree with you that pure Eli dogs are nowhere near as consistently game as some of the other lines ... but ELI/CARVER dogs are a whole different deal, and THESE are what have REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY produced THE BEST dogs in the world, more than any other combination, ever.

And I don't run that line either, I am not promoting "myself," so I have no dog in this fight.
I am just trying to be ACCURATE in what I say based on THE HISTORICAL FACTS that are easily searched and proven here.

That does not mean that my line, or your line, or even Sonny's line haven't produced great dogs. THEY HAVE.

It just means that THE multi-winningest cross isn't RBJ, it's Eli/Carver.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Well, we're classifying all the RBJ dogs into one hat too, are we not?

And, no matter how you slice them, or mix them, the RBJ combination, by iteself, is NOT winning as many contests as ANY of the Eli/Carver combinations ... unless THEY TOO have Eli/Carver in them ... which combo already wins at that level WITHOUT RBJ :idea:

So, which combo truly is "the winningest" then?

I can even be more specific, and say IRONHEAD/BLACK WIDOW dogs ... and the record of these dogs STILL trumps every single pure RBJ combination that every existed :idea:






That is flat out untrue. Again, the greatest, winningest dogs EVER are not RBJ. Only Barracuda is up there, and he is not pure.

I agree that Bolio dogs are among, if not THE greatest Carver dogs ever ... but there are PLENTY of Boomer/Satch/ButcherBoy/Honeybunch (and a host of other) Carver dogs that have gone the route and achieved the highest accolades in APBT history. Almost all of them are Ironhead/BlackWidow-type dogs.





I agree with you that pure Eli dogs are nowhere near as consistently game as some of the other lines ... but ELI/CARVER dogs are a whole different deal, and THESE are what have REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY produced THE BEST dogs in the world, more than any other combination, ever.

And I don't run that line either, I am not promoting "myself," so I have no dog in this fight. I am just trying to be ACCURATE in what I say based on THE HISTORICAL FACTS that are easily searched and proven here.

That does not mean that my line, or your line, or even Sonny's line haven't produced great dogs. THEY HAVE.

It just means that THE multi-winningest cross isn't RBJ, it's Eli/Carver.

Jack

We can whole heartedly abiut the ironhead black widow cross. I myself like the boomerang and snooty dogs, that's obvious from the dogs that I own. I don't agree with Sonny, but I do like the redboy jocko line, agree about Baracuda, and point out that Hollingsworth himself bred to Yellow. Most winningest dogs.... That's a hard conversation, even with facts. Different eras of dogmen have different opinions. Colby? Lightner, Tudor? Heinzel?It's a great topic . What role did the E.Crenshaw really play in the cold Ironhead dogs? Only Maurice knows.

[Officially Retired]

We can whole heartedly abiut the ironhead black widow cross.

Yep.




I myself like the boomerang and snooty dogs, that's obvious from the dogs that I own.

Good point. A man's actions speak what he likes. My own Hollingsworth dogs were upgraded by the addition of Ch Hammer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4), a grandson of Boomerang. This is doubly-true if Ch Hammer's true pedigree is really off of Reuben (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7431). That would make my line, essentially, Eli/Carver/Clouse (mostly Carver/Clouse).

I have never wanted to add Eli (or RBJ either), but I tried RBJ through Mayday and it worked very well. I tried RBJ too, through Waccamaw's dogs, and the results were not nearly as good as through Mayday.
This made Sonny mad, hence the bad blood, but those were simply THE FACTS as they pertained to my dogs and my results. I do not have time to worry about anyone's feelings, that is just the way it went.
Some of the Waccamaw crosses WERE good, really good, but overall it did not in any way compare to the Mayday crosses (which had more Hollingsworth blood), and that is just the way it turned out.

Now, those Poncho/Mayday dogs were very consistent in producing dogs "capable of winning" ... in fact, capable of beating the BEST (as they stopped a few Champions and even 2 Grand Champions) ... but, though excellent, none of them was actually able to be a multi-winning 7xW itself.

So there is a difference between being "focking good" ... and being "focking GREAT" :)

But hey, there is nothing wrong with having damned good, rock-solid, absolutely consistent dogs capable of winning 1-3/4x against the best dogs in the world :idea:
Nothing wrong with that at all.

But becoming a 6x, 7x, 8x, and 9x winning Grand Champion, who beats multiple Champions, is a whole other level, too, isn't it? :idea:

Now, 1 or 2 dogs DOWN FROM my dogs have done this won 6, 9 shows, etc. ... but they ALWAYS had Eli or Chinaman blood in there ... and I have to be honest enough to admit and acknowledge this :-?

Poncho's sister Ruby (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=23) was bred to the straight Eli/Carver male Cates' Rambo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7514), and that produced the winningest dog in Japan's history, Okabe's Gr Ch Jigilu (9xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7513), who beat 4 Champions in a setting like the professional boxing world where they have mandatory challenges of best-to-best.

I did not make that breeding, and I would not have made that breeding.

However, in hindsight, and with the benefit of a database like this, to really see what's going on out there, maybe I should have made more breedings like that :idea:
I was always afraid of losing my gameness percentages, but maybe I should have focused more on upgrading in some areas (mouth/destruction).

Maybe I should have made some pure Eli injections of something like Trump's Shotgun (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2260) into my dogs, and/or the Rambo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7514) dog, and taken my bloodline to a whole new level? I don't know.

I am not sorry for anything I have done, as I love my line and am very proud of its consistent ability to win, and its ability to face and beat most any ONE dog you want to put in front of them.
They will be there, do what it takes, take what they have to, dish out what they need to ... and KEEP COMING ... until they WIN ... and they are able to do this 85 out of every 100 shows they have.
But the ability to win 7, 8, or 9 fights has never happened to one of my pure dogs. And the only time it has happened involving my dogs is when bred to an Eli or Chinaman-type dog.

Funny thing is, my dogs have WHIPPED both Eli and Chinaman dogs ... but when my dogs have been combined with them, some of the individuals have achieved a level of success that my "pure dogs" never have.

Anyway, all I am doing here is "thinking out loud" ... TALKING DOGS ... I am not running down my own, or any other, bloodline.

This particular section of the forum is called BLOODLINES AND BREEDING THEORIES ... and the WHOLE PURPOSE of the calculating and quantifying Search Engine (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_search.php) and Statistics Page (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_statistics_dogs.php) is to plug-in what criteria we're after and come up with some DEFINITE CONCLUSIONS about what is producing what, which combinations work, and which combinations don't ever seem to get "up there" ... to separate FACT from fantasy.

There is no question that RBJ dogs produce winners, Champions, and Grand Champions. Regularly and consistently.
So do my dogs, so do your dogs.

But when we raise the bar, and start looking at Grand Champions of Grand Champions, the simple fact is, if it does not have Eli/Carver in there somewhere, it's NOT going to get super-high stats.

And, again, I don't run that stuff. I have never really tried to add it to my stuff.

But I think I should have ...




I don't agree with Sonny, but I do like the redboy jocko line, agree about Baracuda, and point out that Hollingsworth himself bred to Yellow.

No one with any intelligence or honesty can agree with Sonny.

And, as much as I have taken it upon myself to give credit to Hollingsworth ... and to preserve his name, his bloodline, and his dogs on into posterity ... he was just a man.

And, as great as that breeding was, and as successful as it has become, historically, it is still NOT the winningest litter of all time.

Further (and more importantly), we are still MEN ... who don't have to mindlessly follow in ANY man's footsteps ... without deviation.
We have the right (and responsibility) to THINK ON OUR OWN ... to take tools (like this database) and USE those tools to come up with some EVEN MORE creative or successful ideas of our own :idea:




Most winningest dogs.... That's a hard conversation, even with facts. Different eras of dogmen have different opinions.

Disagree here.

In this case, "opinions" make no difference. WinningEST = numbers.

And when you're dealing with numbers, the #, the PERCENTAGES, and the FACTS are the only things that matter.




Colby? Lightner, Tudor? Heinzel?It's a great topic .

It is a great topic, and all of these guys were influential, there's no doubt.

But which dog combos are the most successful IS able to be calculated and quantified BY THIS VERY DATABASE ...
That is why I worked my ass off so long to bring it into existence.
Breeding dogs has always been my passion, along with APBT history.
This is also why it is so important to add the data accurately and precisely.

Is it a perfect system? No.
Are there missing dogs or inaccurate data? Yes.
But it is still THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE WORLD for calculating dog data and quantifying statistics that has ever been put together :exclamation:

And, you know what? If Sonny, or anyone, knows of a particular dog that isn't in here THEY CAN ADD IT.
There are nearly 40,000 dogs in here now. In 10 years we'll probably have 200,000.

With guys like CYJ and S_B cleaning things up on meaningful dogs, and with most people now entering dogs correctly, this will ultimately be THE place to be to understand what genetic combinations produce what for the serious dogmen.

Here's what it WON'T do:

It won't give someone a good eye for a dog;
It won't make any particular dog "good" or "bad";
It won't make a person a good conditioner/handler.

But it WILL give dogmen and breeders THE BEST POSSIBLE PERSPECTIVE OF THE FOREST ... so they don't let the "little trees" on their yard get in the way of seeing the whole deal :idea:




What role did the E.Crenshaw really play in the cold Ironhead dogs? Only Maurice knows.

Aren't Ed Cranshaw's dogs behind the Steve's White dogs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1983)?

Honestly, I highly doubt it. And here's why:


1) those White dogs never really became multi-winning Grand Champions on their own, while Carver/Eli dogs repeatedly do, and
2) those dogs have long bodies and no ability ... while Carver dogs are fast and athletic.

So I personally don't believe it. But, you're right, only Maurice knows for sure.

Jack

[cdj396]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj

He's already shared his experiences here (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs/page4).

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Hey Jack not taking no sides but would like to know what
CJY said about the RB DOG most of my yard is based on them thanks tj


Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.

My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.

If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?

But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.

I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.

I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.

There's a difference.

There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.

These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all :-?

Jack

[cdj396]

well thanks for the information tj

[Milky]

He's already shared his experiences here (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs/page4).

Jack

Some good and interesting reading right there.

[evolutionkennels]

:-bd
Honestly, amigo, you shouldn't worry about what anyone says, including me.

My dogs haven't produced "the baddest of the bad" either.
A few have with crosses, but NONE of my pure dogs has ever made it to Grand Champion.
Most of my dogs just win when asked to, or sometimes lose, game, with a few not-so-game.

If you like your dogs, and if you're winning with them (or producing winners with them), then what else do you need?

But when you're talking about THE winningest combinations possible, you have to LOOK AT what's putting them out there.

I love the Hollingsworth dogs, but only ONE pure Lady In Red dog ever made Champion.
Most either won (or lost game) on 1 to 2 deals. At most.
But they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely game dogs. Nothing wrong with that.

I believe that the Hollingsworth dogs are the most consistently-game dogs ever, but I don't think they're the "baddest" or "multi-winningest" dogs ever.

There's a difference.

There is no reason for anyone to get mad, kick rocks, or sniffle boo-hoo over the statistical facts that can be harvested here.
They don't make your dogs (or my dogs) "suck" or anything else.
I love my dogs and I am absolutely confident in them beating anything their weight and then some. I am sure you feel the same way about yours.

These statistical tools merely give us quantified information.
From that information, we can all rub our chins and make more informed choices, that's all :-?

Jack


That's as honest as it gets. I feel machobuck could have won 10. Just cause he was a bonafide killer. But a kennel accident took the cartilage out of his joint and we had to put a steel plate in there , and it would swell after two weeks of work.. Even swimming. So.. it wasn't in the cards.

[Officially Retired]

:-bd

That's as honest as it gets.

Thank you :D

The only way to arrive at the truth is to try to be honest and accurate.

It is a waste of time to do anything else.




I feel machobuck could have won 10. Just cause he was a bonafide killer. But a kennel accident took the cartilage out of his joint and we had to put a steel plate in there , and it would swell after two weeks of work.. Even swimming. So.. it wasn't in the cards.

I understand how you feel about the great Gr Ch Machobuck (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=327).

I feel if Ch Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=211) were in the right hands he could have won 10 also.
I have never seen ANY dog in my life have that kind of body strength, pit savvy, and finish all in one package. Never.

I also feel that Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526), who won 6 in a row, never having to go passed :48, even without any cutters, could have easily won 10.
I especially believe this if he had a full set of hangers.

But our "believing" or "feeling" these dogs "could have" won 10 isn't them actually doing it (even if our beliefs are knowledgeable and well-founded).
We can only go by facts, and what dogs actually do win. The facts are Stormy won 4 and Zukill won 6.

Your Gr Ch Machobuck won 5, and also earned a title few dogs ever see: DOY. In fact, Machobuck won nearly every title a dog can have.
There will always be asterisks (*) by certain dogs. There will always be intangibles we can never account for.

Maybe Chavis' Ch Zinc (6xW, 1xL) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) "would have" won 10 ... if he hadn't have run into Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990).
But the FACT is Ch Zinc did run into Gr Ch Sampson ... and the FACT is he lost ...

The truth is, if any of the dogs we THINK "could have" won 10 had faced other Champions or Grand Champions, as these two did, there could be a lot of surprises. Either way.

I was absolutely sure that Ch Tulipa 4xW, 4xBIS (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7382) was going to be a Grand Champion. She was a freak of nature and widely considered the best bitch in Brazil's history.
Tulipa beat a Cardenas/Morfin bitch (a 2xW sister to a 6xW and a 4xW), spotting her 3 lb of weight in a HUGE international convention. She won BIS and GIS in 1:30.
Ch Tulipa won either BIS, or GIS (or both), in EVERY match she had, ALL of which were huge, international 10-14 card shows.
But the actual FACTS are, Ch Tulipa LOST her Gr Ch bid. I believe you experienced the same thing with one of your own great, 4xW bitches ... a killer also.
Killers lose too. In fact, The Old Man I know owned Ch Zinc for his last into Ricky. He said Zinc would kill you in the kidneys in 1-2 bites. Yet he lost too.

That is what separates fact from fantasy ... but nothing will take away from THE FACT these were all great dogs, including Ch Zinc.
Killing 6 in a row, and losing game to a 5xBIS Grand Champion, in one of the most successful competitor's hands, is still one helluvan effort from one helluva dog.

Jack

[Pit Bull Committed]

That is what separates fact from fantasy ... but nothing will take away from THE FACT these were all great dogs, including Ch Zinc.
Killing 6 in a row, and losing game to a 5xBIS Grand Champion, in one of the most successful competitor's hands, is still one helluvan effort from one helluva dog.

Jack
I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most! :)

[Pit Bull Committed]

However, in hindsight, and with the benefit of a database like this, to really see what's going on out there, maybe I should have made more breedings like that :idea:
I was always afraid of losing my gameness percentages, but maybe I should have focused more on upgrading in some areas (mouth/destruction).

I like what you said here. :) I must admit I'm a greenhorn but I learned a bunch from this particular thread about bloodlines. ;)

[Officially Retired]

I absolutely agree with your full post but I like this part the most! :)

Yep.

Most knowledgeable people realize even the greatest of dogs can lose when they step up in class and face other truly great dogs :idea:

For example, and once again, just recently the great Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=32664) was also a 6xW, a BIS, and DOY winner ... and yet he lost when he faced another great dog in Gr Ch Titere (7xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11369) ... who is now a DOY also. (Lotta Eli/Carver in that dog ;) )

Furthermore, even if a person takes his great dog, and spot-picks and goes into "no name" dogs, he can still lose and get his ass handed to him, if it's a genuinely good and well-bred dog.

As yet another example in this RB/J-Eli/Carver debate, the great Eli/Carver (Rascal/Honeybunch) dog Hardcore's Ch Doogie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7497) was a 4xW and a DOY.
Doogie had defeated Keystone's CH Stryker and he had whipped Gr Ch Yellow's brother, the pure RBJ Tant's Ch Rocko (4xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8870), stopping Rocko from achieving his own Grand Championship.
(Same pattern, folks ...)

Yet when Hardcore took his great, 2-Champion-killer, and faced the NOBODY Ram ... who had his own little Eli/Carver dog Flash (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27161) ... the great, titled Ch Doogie DOY ... LOST.
Granted, it was a 2:50 loss ... and, granted again, nobody knew Flash would grow up to be Champion Flash ... brother to Gr Ch Bossman (12xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=28069) ... but he was another Eli/Carver dog ;)

But that *is* the way things can go out there ...

All of these dogs are great dogs being talked about ...

Yet, actually winning 7 (let alone 10!) is a very rare thing indeed ... especially when facing the absolute best to be had in the sport of dogs.

Ken Allen and the A-Team tried to win 10x with at least 4 different Grand Champions.

The pure RBJ dog Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) failed when he tried into the pure Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990).
Even the UNK-bred Gr Ch Dooley (8xW) failed in 2:48 when he tried into Carver/Heinzl-bred Gr Ch Melonhead (14xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27180).
The pure Carver/Bolio Gr Ch Robert T (9xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9965), who had the best resume of any dog mentioned here, still lost #10 into the UNK-bred Tito's Ch Ninja.
ONLY the great Eli/Corvino-bred Gr Ch Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) finally made it to 10x for Ken Allen & Co ... but she didn't do it facing other Chs & Gr Chs ...

So it's a lot more difficult to actually DO this, historically, than it is to project about it.

Especially when facing the kind of dogs Ken Allen and The A-Team faced back in the heyday of the APBT ...

But, if you pay attention, history does have a tendency to repeat itself ... and the same, basic combinations are the ones which are able to go the highest ...
While other very good combinations do build a consistent, very respectable record ... but almost invariably get weeded-out after 5-6x ... and never seem to rise up to the very highest altitudes :idea:

Jack

[Dogmaster]

awesome topic Jack, but Ram's Ch Flash was only a 3x winner http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=422665 , seen two of his shows. He was off Ch Rattler and the full brother to Ch Big Bossman this ped is wrong. I also agree with you 100%

[Officially Retired]

awesome topic Jack, but Ram's Ch Flash was only a 3x winner http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/public/printPedigree.php?dog_id=422665 , seen two of his shows. He was off Ch Rattler and the full brother to Ch Big Bossman this ped is wrong. I also agree with you 100%

Thank you for the clarification.

I don't know the particulars on Ch Flash, but I thought he made it to 5 and then was stolen.

I am not sure, so if you are closer to the dog and know he was only a 3xW, then I will correct the information.

I am almost 100% sure Ram was shot and killed while he was walking Flash, and that the dog was stolen from him (tragic), so thanks for taking the time to correct any misinformation.

Great dog and (I hope) points made, regardless.

Cheers,

Jack

[Dogmaster]

Yes I'm from that neck of the woods. My cuz was the ref. on #2 against D-Mob's dog. He was killed in a drive by his own brother's in front of True Colour's House with an dog in his arm's (not Flash). Sometime later his brother's were caught and the police went to his mother's house and seen all the dogs and called HSUS that's when they got Flash. See Ram was on the cover of the Journal with Flash so they new what Flash looked like. Everybody and their mama went down to HSUS to try and get Flash, but they would not let anyone get him and you know what happen to Ch. Flash (R.I.P. to Pat Ram and True Colours Tony Rodgers) Oh yeah all points were made like I said. I like RBJ dogs, but I got to have Carver/Eli dogs LOL.

[Bigfoot23]

Dogmaster what type of style did ch flash have and did he get a chance to produce anything?

[Dogmaster]

He went into very good camps he did everything better then each dog he went into and he had a good hard mouth. Ch Doogie was his hardest show he almost didn't make it out of that one. A friend of mine has some of the blood down from his daugther http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38629

[waccamaw]

Jack every body knows you ,except the green horns and they will soon know you (LOL)


Jack I I would love to know what Cyj has to say about the RBJ .i think everybody else would too.and jack the only reason you are talking up Eli carver dogs now is because you now claim poncho is down from that ,due to P.P. Paper hanging .and from the audio it sounds like he did hang a paper .i think I would also like to hear about your interview with Fox 16 news after pat patric got busted .

[Officially Retired]

Jack I I would love to know what Cyj has to say about the RBJ. i think everybody else would too.

Then you will have to ask CYJ.

I am not going to re-post anyone's PM to me, unless it's to discredit them if they're lying in public to me directly.



and jack the only reason you are talking up Eli carver dogs now is because you now claim poncho is down from that ,due to P.P. Paper hanging .and from the audio it sounds like he did hang a paper.

No, the only reason I am talking up the Eli/Carver dogs, retard, is because the statistics prove that they're the winningest cross ever.

Or do you think I am making that up too?

I don't know what your defect is that you can't just accept the truth of this, when it's easily-researched information.

I am sorry if this fact is in stark contrast to all the cheerleading you've done for yourself, but your dogs really haven't done much, ANYWHERE, except your own back yard.

And they haven't even made Gr Ch there ... pure, crossed, a quarter-out, nothing. Your dogs are good, not great.

I am sorry if this is a source of pain for you, but you shouldn't go to bragging about how "bad" your dogs are ... unless they actually have the record to support that position.




i think I would also like to hear about your interview with Fox 16 news after pat patric got busted .

I never had an interview with Fox 16 news after Pat Patrick got busted, genius, I was called by a news team after a customer of mine got busted ... named Patryk Janisewski ... and he told them he got his dogs from me.
I was called by the news team, totally out of the blue, and I got off the phone pretty much as quick as I could.

And Sonny, since right off the bat you're starting shit again, getting your facts wrong, and making implications you have no business making ... right after I lifted your one-month ban ... your dumb ass just got the boot for good.

If you're trying to imply that "I" had something to do with Pat Patrick's bust, then you are a double-idiot, because I sent $500 of my own money to help the Patricks, even though I hated them.

You now what Sonny, I have had enough of your lip, your shitty attitude, and (really) your stupidity.

So, congratulations, you are banned for good. I mean, right after your month-long ban ends, you pick up right off and start making stupid accusations all over again.
You really are a stupid man who doesn't know how to leave well enough alone.

It doesn't even dawn on you that THE TRUTH might be the reason I built this website, to crunch dog statistic numbers, and actually get meaningful statistics on which dogs produce what, so we can separate FACT from (what you seem to thrive on) FANTASY.

I am sorry that the FACTS show that NO DOG on the upper-end of these performance statistics carries your blood in it ... it must be embarrassing to have to "explain" that to all your green customers :embarrassed:

And I am sorry if these statistics PROVE the Eli/Carver dogs are the ones producing THE baddest dogs of all time ... but the fact of the matter is, that's the way it is.

I don't know why you think there is some "conspiracy" going on ... and why you can't simply accept THE TRUTH for what it is ... but you're a stupid and annoying man, and I am tired of your implications and innuendos.

Go back to the dirty south and tell your local rednecks that "you" have the baddest dogs of all time ... but the statistics prove that you don't even come close.

Good riddance :bootintheass:

[Jrbulldogs]

the funny thing is when you really think about bolio himself was a carver dog.

[Officially Retired]

No doubt about it.

Bull Boy Bob was a Carver/Clouse dog; Reuben was a pure Carver dog.

[Jrbulldogs]

so jack would you yourself call poncho hounds a family of Eli/Carver/Tombstone hounds ? or Eli/Carver/Bolio/Tombstone ?

[Officially Retired]

so jack would you yourself call poncho hounds a family of Eli/Carver/Tombstone hounds ? or Eli/Carver/Bolio/Tombstone ?


I would call them a family of Poncho dogs, or Vise-Grip dogs, since Poncho is the # 1 focus, comprises the most of their genetics, and since I as a breeder bred deeper into my own family and bloodline than any single breeder actually bred into anything that's in back of them.

I would say Poncho dogs go back to Carver dogs, mostly, with heavy Patrick, Hollingsworth influence ... which goes back to Carver, Clouse, Tombstone, and (if Reuben is Hammer's sire) Eli blood, etc.

Jack

[Jrbulldogs]

i hear you

[widerange]

Wow just finished reading All 30 pages of this and I almost want to re read it to make sure I didn't miss out on any info. It got a little out there for a min but the info here is great. From the history to using the site for different resources I have learned a lot. I would like to say I run a mix of rb/j/Eli dogs coming from Abbe POR and GR CH Davis boomerang and midnight cowboy along with some rb/Eli from the same source. My dogs have several wins in but I just started breeding off my yard to others and have seen a change with the bolio/Eli/carver blood and even tried it with rb/bolio/jocko dogs who are too young to actually know anything about but after reading this Im more interested in seeing how this turns out. I live in SC and it's hard to find better rb dogs then what we have here and I was told yrs ago that jocko was bred into the heavy inbred rb dogs to add mouth. I'm pretty sure miss jocko was the dog originally used in the cross to improve mouth. With that I have never owned one so I don't know. I like my rb/jeep/Eli crosses and have been wanting to add bolio/ Eli or carver crosses into my rb/Eli dogs for sometime so I couldn't get enough of this post. Thanks for all the info and I'll try to add some more facts to that list of winners with my own dogs after figuring out how to use this search page to it's full potinual

[Officially Retired]

Wow just finished reading All 30 pages of this and I almost want to re read it to make sure I didn't miss out on any info. It got a little out there for a min but the info here is great. From the history to using the site for different resources I have learned a lot. I would like to say I run a mix of rb/j/Eli dogs coming from Abbe POR and GR CH Davis boomerang and midnight cowboy along with some rb/Eli from the same source. My dogs have several wins in but I just started breeding off my yard to others and have seen a change with the bolio/Eli/carver blood and even tried it with rb/bolio/jocko dogs who are too young to actually know anything about but after reading this Im more interested in seeing how this turns out. I live in SC and it's hard to find better rb dogs then what we have here and I was told yrs ago that jocko was bred into the heavy inbred rb dogs to add mouth. I'm pretty sure miss jocko was the dog originally used in the cross to improve mouth. With that I have never owned one so I don't know. I like my rb/jeep/Eli crosses and have been wanting to add bolio/ Eli or carver crosses into my rb/Eli dogs for sometime so I couldn't get enough of this post. Thanks for all the info and I'll try to add some more facts to that list of winners with my own dogs after figuring out how to use this search page to it's full potinual

Very glad you took the time to read it all. If people could get over their propensity to cry boo-hoo, if their favorite lines don't quite measure up as they previously believed, the information that can be harvested here really is interesting.

Ultimately, like everything else, claims of having "the baddest" need to have the statistics behind it in order to be validated ... or to be refuted if, in fact, the statistics are not behind some of the claims being made ;)

Further, just because some lines may produce "the winningest" dogs, doesn't mean said lines (or crosses) excel in all categories. As mentioned, the Hollingsworth dogs (as a pure line) could hardly win more than 2 fights (if they didn't die after the first fight). Typically, it took these dogs 1.5-2 hours to win (or lose) any fight, generally. So the Hollingsworth dogs were by no means "the baddest" ... yet they were absolutely beautiful, absolutely stunning animals visually ... and they were absolutely so game and so tough they could BEAT the baddest (or die trying) ... by simply outlasting them ... as the Hollingsworth dogs were game enough, and tough enough, to go 2 hours with anything ... win, lose, or draw, no matter how many "quick wins" the other dog had against other bloodlines. My own dogs, as a pure line, tended to be like this: when they faced "badass" dogs of other lines ... suddenly that "badass" dog would find itself in there with a BULLdog ... that wasn't going to die in :20 ... that was just getting warmed up by :40 ... and who would TAKE what other dogs would die to ... and ultimately befuddle & figure-out that supposed "badass" ... and ultimately stop him deep in the trenches.

So there will always be "intangibles" that can't accurately be quantified by a statistical search ... that can still be appreciated as good and valuable traits to enjoy in a bulldog.

Jack

[widerange]

Often you hear rb blood for game Eli for mouth and so on and so on. So can we take from this that the fact that Eli/carver dogs make it into that 6 or more winning group because of their ability to stop shows in shorter orders with the trait of heavier mouths and that often rb blood or Hollingsworth dogs don't see that 6+ show bc of their lack of being able to stop dogs in short order causing them to take on more damage then the Eli/carver dogs do in a single show? Or is that reading between the lines a little too much?

[EWO]

I agree if we can drop the blood line part of the equation. I think the majority of dogs that win 6 or more do several of them in short order, for whatever reason, from whatever the line. Finding a dog who won 6 or more and 4 or 5 of them stretched to the 2 hour and beyond mark would be quite the task.

Two trains of thought, one, the dog is perceived to be low in the proverbial gas tank after several two hour trips, and two, the owner feels less and less confident the dog can continue to go 2 hours time and time again.

I would think most 6 and better dogs had a few quick ones along the way, either they dominated or something quit up under them and things wrapped up in quick order. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Often you hear rb blood for game Eli for mouth and so on and so on.

Well, I have another post (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs) where I dispute the claim of RB dogs being known for gameness ... at least the ones I have seen (I know there are differences). And they sure as heck aren't very smart, which (to me) is a big drawback.




So can we take from this that the fact that Eli/carver dogs make it into that 6 or more winning group because of their ability to stop shows in shorter orders with the trait of heavier mouths and that often rb blood or Hollingsworth dogs don't see that 6+ show bc of their lack of being able to stop dogs in short order causing them to take on more damage then the Eli/carver dogs do in a single show? Or is that reading between the lines a little too much?


I agree if we can drop the blood line part of the equation. I think the majority of dogs that win 6 or more do several of them in short order, for whatever reason, from whatever the line. Finding a dog who won 6 or more and 4 or 5 of them stretched to the 2 hour and beyond mark would be quite the task.
Two trains of thought, one, the dog is perceived to be low in the proverbial gas tank after several two hour trips, and two, the owner feels less and less confident the dog can continue to go 2 hours time and time again.
I would think most 6 and better dogs had a few quick ones along the way, either they dominated or something quit up under them and things wrapped up in quick order. EWO


That is exactly right IMO ... the HW-type dogs take too much abuse to keep going on and on ... though extremely game, they are a little ponderous, and because they take so much abuse they could only do that so many times. Dogs that win 6 or more times have to be able to really break something down, and/or have to be able to stay out of trouble, and usually both. For example, the Eli/Carver/Hetrick Gr Ch Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) (while known and celebrated for killing 9 out of 10 dogs she faced) was actually a wizard on defense as well, killing 3 dogs without getting a single hole in her skin. Just think about that: not only being bad enough to kill 3 ... but slick enough to do it without getting touched in return. Yet no one comments on that.

Also, in keeping with this, when "the baddest of the bad" of these respective crosses (RBJ and Eli/Carver) meet each other ... in Epic battles of the Gr Champions vs. Gr Champions, it invariably seems like the Eli/Carver dogs prevail for these reasons. As a recap:

As the RBJ/BT dog Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431) fell off to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952) ...
As the RBJ Gr Ch Zinc (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) fell off to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990) ...
As the RBJ/BT Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) fell off to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch Da Beast (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065) ...
As Yellow's brother Ch Rocko (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8870) fell off to the Eli/Carver Ch Doogie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7497) ...
As the RBJ/BT Ch Noriega (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38292) fell of to the Carver-bred Gr Ch Ajax (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38291) ...
As Ch Jocko's brother Ch Argo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6464) lost # 5 to the Eli/Carver/Clouse Ch Bumper (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3473) ...
As Ch Jocko's sister Ch Apples (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=424) lost to the Eli/Loposay Gr Ch Molly Bee (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117) ... etc., etc.

Remember, ALL of these dogs were great dogs, and part of our history, but it sure seems like when the absolute best meets the absolute best of the respective lines, that it's the Eli/Carver dogs which prevail nearly every time.

Honestly, I believe it all boils down to an extra amount of intelligence ... on top of just power ... because "stupid game" (and even "stupid power") will only get you so far.

I really do think that's the difference ... you can almost see the difference in their eyes (aside from reviewing the actual match reports).

To be the best of the best, you have to be bad, yes, and you have to be smart as well :idea:

Jack


.

[DangerBoyKennel]

Here here stop living in the past i'am from the eli country Louisiana eli/carver dogs are not as good as the past dogs were these dogs can bit that's true but soon as you put a smart head dog on they ass they lay it down its like a stubborn kid when they can't get what they want they just holla and run and none of those dogs you name was blackjack, yellow, mayday, lukane, gator, brutus,tuffy, barracuda, machobuck these dogs are some of the best that ever did it... it is what it is jeep/redboy rascal and redboy/jocko dogs today have the highest winning percentage today period

[Officially Retired]

Here here stop living in the past i'am from the eli country Louisiana eli/carver dogs are not as good as the past dogs were these dogs can bit that's true but soon as you put a smart head dog on they ass they lay it down its like a stubborn kid when they can't get what they want they just holla and run and none of those dogs you name was blackjack, yellow, mayday, lukane, gator, brutus,tuffy, barracuda, machobuck these dogs are some of the best that ever did it... it is what it is jeep/redboy rascal and redboy/jocko dogs today have the highest winning percentage today period

You need to learn how to read correctly, because you are confusing two things: "high win percentage" and having badass, multi-winning dogs.

No one ever said RBJ dogs don't win. And, of the 9 dogs you said "I" mentioned, in point of fact I only mentioned 2.

Buddy, we weren't talking about "win percentages," we were talking about winning 7, 8, 9, and 10 fights ... being the baddest of the bad ... and, hate to burst your bubble, but RBJ dogs weren't doing it then ... and aren't doing it now.

They win lots of matches, yes. 1-2, 3-4, and (occasionally) 5-6 ... but when it starts getting deeper than that, they are no where to be found ... except Barracuda.

Yet Eli/Carver dogs are STILL winning 7x, 8x, etc., even today, so you are simply wrong. You also say that Eli/Carver dogs are the ones quitting ... um, I have news for you, of the 7 Epic Matches I listed above ... all 7 were lost by the RBJ dogs ... and only one of them (Noriega) showed dead game.

Jack

[DangerBoyKennel]

It's all dog talk anyways don't get mad about it my boy you put what you felt and so did i it's all good homie

[Officially Retired]

Well, if you want to talk about "today's game" ... and epic battles "today" ... let me burst your bubble with this reality check:

Because didn't Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW, 1xL DOY) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=32664) ... just get beat by the Eli/Carver Gr Ch Titere (7xW, DOY) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11369)? ;)

Now, admittedly, there is 1/4 Redboy in Titere, but there is not a drop of Jocko, and the dog is basically 3/4 Eli/Carver.

Check your facts; review your history (past and present) ... because if you see a dog winning 7, 8, 9x almost invariably it will not be a RBJ dog ... it will be an Eli/Carver dog or similar.

That is just the way the ball keeps bouncing ...

Jack

PS: It's not about how we "feel" ... nor is this to discredit any line. We are just crunching numbers and quoting hard statistics.

[DangerBoyKennel]

Hahaha i'am not trying to get into argument with you about the dogs homie you good but i feel the way i feel respect it like i respect what you believe homie :-) I even like the dogs you bred and back to the mayday line it's over

[Officially Retired]

Hahaha i'am not trying to get into argument with you about the dogs homie you good but i feel the way i feel respect it like i respect what you believe homie :-) I even like the dogs you bred and back to the mayday line it's over

LOL, thank you, and I love my dogs too :D

Yet, in over 25 years of breeding dogs, there have been only 3 dogs of my bloodline that have won 6 or more fights ... and none had RBJ in there :idea:

Of these cross-dogs of mine that won 6 or more fights, 2 had Eli injections. The 3rd had OFRN in it, actually.

I am actually with you on the "percentages" thing: that is what I personally have always bred for.

I absolutely LOVE my percentages. I will compare my percentages with any breeder who has ever bred dogs.

Yet (when speaking of BADASS, multi-winning dogs) of all the gazillion "pure breedings" I have done, I have to admit the most any "pure" dog of mine has won is 4 :)

And, while the Mayday/RBJ crosses have been wonderful, of all the RBJ crosses I have made, again, the most any dog of this mix has won is 4 and 5 :)

The dogs that mine crossed with, who won 6 and 9 were Chinaman and Eli crosses ... not my preferred cup of tea ... but I have to stop and consider that facts are facts ... as history really does repeat itself :-?

Jack :cheers:

[DangerBoyKennel]

That's real homie my boy have some of your blood and i will take it back to my redboyjocko blood and i will let you know how many i put up with that cross lol!!!

[Officially Retired]

LOL, best of luck to you, seriously :-bd

[widerange]

I don't think he read it from the start did he? And should homer be ch homer bolboa now not gr ch

[apeman]

Yep.

Most knowledgeable people realize even the greatest of dogs can lose when they step up in class and face other truly great dogs :idea:

For example, and once again, just recently the great Gr Ch Homer Balboa (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=32664) was also a 6xW, a BIS, and DOY winner ... and yet he lost when he faced another great dog in Gr Ch Titere (7xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11369) ... who is now a DOY also. (Lotta Eli/Carver in that dog ;) )

Furthermore, even if a person takes his great dog, and spot-picks and goes into "no name" dogs, he can still lose and get his ass handed to him, if it's a genuinely good and well-bred dog.

As yet another example in this RB/J-Eli/Carver debate, the great Eli/Carver (Rascal/Honeybunch) dog Hardcore's Ch Doogie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7497) was a 4xW and a DOY.
Doogie had defeated Keystone's CH Stryker and he had whipped Gr Ch Yellow's brother, the pure RBJ Tant's Ch Rocko (4xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8870), stopping Rocko from achieving his own Grand Championship.
(Same pattern, folks ...)

Yet when Hardcore took his great, 2-Champion-killer, and faced the NOBODY Ram ... who had his own little Eli/Carver dog Flash (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27161) ... the great, titled Ch Doogie DOY ... LOST.
Granted, it was a 2:50 loss ... and, granted again, nobody knew Flash would grow up to be Champion Flash ... brother to Gr Ch Bossman (12xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=28069) ... but he was another Eli/Carver dog ;)

But that *is* the way things can go out there ...

All of these dogs are great dogs being talked about ...

Yet, actually winning 7 (let alone 10!) is a very rare thing indeed ... especially when facing the absolute best to be had in the sport of dogs.

Ken Allen and the A-Team tried to win 10x with at least 4 different Grand Champions.

The pure RBJ dog Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) failed when he tried into the pure Eli/Carver Gr Ch Sampson (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990).
Even the UNK-bred Gr Ch Dooley (8xW) failed in 2:48 when he tried into Carver/Heinzl-bred Gr Ch Melonhead (14xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27180).
The pure Carver/Bolio Gr Ch Robert T (9xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9965), who had the best resume of any dog mentioned here, still lost #10 into the UNK-bred Tito's Ch Ninja.
ONLY the great Eli/Corvino-bred Gr Ch Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) finally made it to 10x for Ken Allen & Co ... but she didn't do it facing other Chs & Gr Chs ...

So it's a lot more difficult to actually DO this, historically, than it is to project about it.

Especially when facing the kind of dogs Ken Allen and The A-Team faced back in the heyday of the APBT ...

But, if you pay attention, history does have a tendency to repeat itself ... and the same, basic combinations are the ones which are able to go the highest ...
While other very good combinations do build a consistent, very respectable record ... but almost invariably get weeded-out after 5-6x ... and never seem to rise up to the very highest altitudes :idea:

Jack


Jack, this is Tito and the local boys Ch Ninja http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21672
Eli/Ironhead

[Officially Retired]

Jack, this is Tito and the local boys Ch Ninja http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21672
Eli/Ironhead

Thank you!

Am I correct in believing this dog to be a 4xW?

[apeman]

Thank you!

Am I correct in believing this dog to be a 4xW?

Correct, he was a 4xw; 1xl who defeated Ch Mr Rodgers in his second, and lost to a bolo/clouse dog in his 5th (many believe he should have been retired after #2, and was a shell of his former self by #5).

[CYJ]

I can fix that. Apeman what was the name of the Bolio /Clouse dog that won over this dog? Would like to add this to the narrative. Do you know the color of the Ninja dog and weight of this Ninja dog? A black nose or red nose dog. Cheers

[No Quarter Kennel]

No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

Not in my neighborhood

[CYJ]

The Norman L's Petey dog that won over the Ninja dog.. Can anyone give more detail on this dog's name and breeding. Can not find it in this system or the other site. If I can find the right dog and pedigree would like to enter it into this site if not already in our system. Cheers

[lightningstrikes]

That is pretty much the way it's been for me. I have owned a few, schooled with a bunch, and known plenty with a lot of that stuff.

The pure ones I've seen have been slow and dumb by my standards. A couple had some real good mouth though.
The best ones I have seen seemed very rugged, and very determined, but again were slow.
Seen a couple of crosses that were pretty darned good, the whole package, but I have seen some crosses that were rank curs too. And I do mean rank.

But my Top 30 List of the absolute best dogs I have seen (dogs that were super-fast, freak-strong, athletic, smart, absolutely determined, with finish) has none of that blood in it.

Jack



Jack if u mind me asking when u have some time could u list the 30 best uve seen ? Thanks in advance

Lightningstrikes

[apeman]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=46691

[blackfist1]

Rip. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=41195. One of the gamest and most heart I have seen and own. Ran a great race.

[EWO]

Old topic. Great line. Does not really matter whether it is accurate, a personal opinion, or whatever... Still a great line.

EWO

[flashsbulldogs]

I never said that RBJ dogs weren't great. In fact I do believe I directly said they were both great and consistent as a bloodline.

But the idea that "most" kennels use them ... or that they've produced "the baddest" ... or "all" of the great dogs out there ... is absolutely asinine.

FACT:
My dogs have beat every HOE dog they ever faced (3); they've also beaten at least 1 Hardcore dog (a daughter of Bozack);
One of Southern Kennels' finest Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) was defeated by the Jeep dog Gr Ch Da Beast (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065) (who came up to 52 lb to beat him);
And Stone City's #1 dog, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431), was beaten by the Eli/Carver dog Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952).
I could go on and on ...

So, again, NO, sorry, the RBJ dogs are good ... and I mean no disrespect to the line ... because I agree they are as competitive as the other great lines out there ... but they do NOT have a lock on either winning or "badness" ... not by a longshot.

Jack

where are all the IBM dogs now? IBM was bred like pure garbage scater bred to hell with a hung pedigree from Ming man in the bronx but he was a hell of a dog that is for sure , even so I would still have to say the CH Nico dogs are still out there making there mark to this day .. da beast was a rank cur and where is that stuff now? his so called great son was a box jumping cur as well.. none of that is around anymore, but there are tons and tons of ch glocks family around still winning.. hey Jack one of the best dogs I have ever seen from your stock was CH Heavy D who was off CH Nico JR who was CH NICO'S son and one hell of a bull dog.. In my opinion the rbj and the bolio tombstone both go together so well I would really not want either of them with out the other. they add what the other lacks.. I always felt the mouth was deff from the jocko side and that clicked up with the tombstone side cause of the mayfield Tudor stuff well and the bolio and redboy gave it the bottom end.. cause I have had past dogs from all of those lines on there own.. and none of them did as well as when they were all 4 crossed together.. just my opinion

[flashsbulldogs]

Try me !you never know he might be right or he might be wrong ,but he can sure ask a few about Cody

Well jack if all these facts show the facts on all your wins !and tell us how you got poncho and those other 2 pitbulls to ride in the front seat of your truck together ,you know like when you came by the house .i truly was impressed by. That .
so what? that shows pack mentality and intelligence I love a smart dog, gr ch virgil would run around with other dogs.. not even dogs he knew.. some dogs are smart enough to know when there is no threat. wac I must say I have seen a lot of dogs down from your stock and I was impressed with the mouth and drive similar to dogs from tants yard but they were not game as far as I am concerned big ruff fight crazy dogs do not sell me.. thats for the average joe. I think the bolio stuff jack has will add that Intelligence in there so they are not so fight crazy cause that means nothing where it really counts. but I would breed to big john in a heart back today if I could.. but it would be to a bolio mayday bitch..

[brokeback]

so what? that shows pack mentality and intelligence I love a smart dog, gr ch virgil would run around with other dogs.. not even dogs he knew.. some dogs are smart enough to know when there is no threat. wac I must say I have seen a lot of dogs down from your stock and I was impressed with the mouth and drive similar to dogs from tants yard but they were not game as far as I am concerned big ruff fight crazy dogs do not sell me.. thats for the average joe. I think the bolio stuff jack has will add that Intelligence in there so they are not so fight crazy cause that means nothing where it really counts. but I would breed to big john in a heart back today if I could.. but it would be to a bolio mayday bitch..


Wacc won't be responding, that's another of the many jackass banned for no reason. Sucks too because I liked his posts.

[BRICKFACE]

Wacc won't be responding, that's another of the many jackass banned for no reason. Sucks too because I liked his posts.

he's not banned and welcomed to come back anytime

[brokeback]

he's not banned and welcomed to come back anytime

Hope he does. I don't know him other than online and don't run his dogs either. Just enjoyed his posts. Hope the others come back too. I enjoy this site and the members on here. And their views and opinions. Whether I agree or not.

[BRICKFACE]

Hope he does. I don't know him other than online and don't run his dogs either. Just enjoyed his posts. Hope the others come back too. I enjoy this site and the members on here. And their views and opinions. Whether I agree or not.Lots of people are signing up and or coming back. I've almost added 100 members since I took over. We're over 320+ now and growing 8)

[brokeback]

Lots of people are signing up and or coming back. I've almost added 100 members since I took over. We're over 320+ now and growing 8)

That's great news, bro. I'm happy for not only the site but you as well.

[bossman311]

Good stuff!

[MBK]

Dentista and Siega Kind of epitomize both families.

[sam i am]

Informing post!

[evolutionkennels]

ALL bloods can produce world beaters. Its up to the fancier to choose his stock

[EWO]

This was a volatile threads over a number of weeks.

Regardless of the merit of the statement, it is one of my favorite things I have heard/read in the dogs.

Did it mean RBJ dogs created more dead game dogs? Did they push the game dogs to the other side?

I just liked the quote itself. I really did not care in what context, who said it or what they meant. I remember liking the quote and the former owner copy and pasted me damn near off the board.

EWO

[skip11]

"Did it mean RBJ dogs created more dead game dogs? Did they push the game dogs to the other side?"

I think Wac meant RBJ produce more dead game dogs but the way he worded them makes it sound like RBJ produces the most bad ass dogs that finishes the most hogs.

[Osagedogman2015]

I believe he meant it to say that those dogs (RBJ) produced the most dead game dogs. It is only an opinion that cannot be proven either right or wrong. Nobody knows and never will. There isn't any comprehensive documentation to support it either way.

[S_B]

Let's face it, RBJ dogs are the gamest dogs on the planet! :dancin:

[skip11]

Somehow it got misinterpreted to RBJ made other dogs dead game.

[S_B]

You are right Skip, I flipped the script. :pirate:

[EWO]

Agreed. That is why I liked it so much. It could be spoken/written in one context but could have meant something quite different.

I felt like he was on the 'RBJ production meaning'.

Either way, I thought is was a great statement. I really did not care how it was intended or how it could be taken.

Even if it was not intended to be written as 'double talk' it was a great statement.

EWO

[Misfit]

RBJ fans Stand Up!!!

[S_B]

RBJ fans Stand Up!!!

This thread is about to EXPLODE! RBJ for life!!!

[skip11]

I'm a fan of RBJBT (mostly because that's what I own) but somehow I'm less of a fan of just RBJ without the bolio tombstone (hollingsworth/buck).

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=8836

We beat three or four over the years. They were Tant and Burns bred. Never was much of a fan.

I worked a RBJ/Mims cross for his fourth and never seen a harder working, more determined dog.

Got a chance to get this female on the Mims/RBJ cross. She is just a puppy but I am digging her so far.

EWO

[skip11]

So essentially Mims = redboy/snooty/bolio right?

[EWO]

Yes.

I'm digging the Mims RBJ cross.

S

[EWO]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=61943

This is by far the hardest working dog I have ever seen. This dog went all out on everything he did. He gave maximum effort on any and all of the equipment.

He made the turn table look like a saw mill. Long runs on the 4 wheeler I had to continually speed up as he was always trying to out run the machine.

He was freak bull strong, could pretty much breathe underwater and never tired.

I had to learn how to apply the brakes with this dog.

EWO

[Misfit]

I love how he's bred. I run some of that X-Factor and Barr-Cayman blood. How big is he?

[Misfit]

Do you think he's better than Ali Baba?

[EWO]

No experience with Ali Baba. Only heard good things.

Which is better would just be speculation. It would take a dog with a ton of mouth and an incredible motor to stay with Lil Man.

Based on what I heard about both, leave both of them down for an hour and neither side would have much to work with afterwards. That would be my best guess.

But a guess still the same.

I would have loved to stand on top of either of them.

Check your PM.

EWO

[gotap_d]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=61943

This is by far the hardest working dog I have ever seen. This dog went all out on everything he did. He gave maximum effort on any and all of the equipment.

He made the turn table look like a saw mill. Long runs on the 4 wheeler I had to continually speed up as he was always trying to out run the machine.

He was freak bull strong, could pretty much breathe underwater and never tired.

I had to learn how to apply the brakes with this dog.

EWO

Have a grandson of his that i'm liking so far.

[Frank43]

Here is my input on this beat to death subject. BOTH lines are a great line of dogs. The Bolio-Tombstone blend of dogs crosses great with the Eli line for mouth establishhing a seperate line (Boyles) , and the Redboy-Jocko crossed excellent with Rascal and Honeybunch creating the HArdcore Kennels dogs. Here is my opinion, The best Hollingsworth dog ever as a performer was Gr.Ch.Mayday. he was simply a beast. traveled from Puerto Rico to New York City to South Carolina beating the likes of the Gator Boys, Tant, and Soulman. He was indeed a killing machine. With all respect to Waccamaw, If Big John was as good as Mayday, he certainly didn't travel and beat those big name kennels. That being said....Mayday was half Redboy-Jocko! Indeed he was a Hollingsworth dog, bred by Mr.Hollingsworth himself. That begs the question of ,"If the Hollingsworth line had all it needed, why did he breed to Yellow. In addition to that what other Hollingswoth bitch bred to any dog produced three champions in the same litter?" Its a good question. What I am getting at is that Yellow added value, and Mr.Hollingsworth knew it somehow, and the bulldog world is glad he did. As it pertains to Gameness, I've said before ..both dogs bring it, but I think it's a different kind of gameness. My opinion is that the Bolio-Tombstone dogs are deadgame because of thier stubborness in face of defeat, because of their will and mindset not to lose or be defeated. The Bolio-Tombstone dogs are stubborn sons of bitches. You're not going to make one do anything they dont want to. Their coats are finicky and they are LOUD! Lets just say that the neighbors won't appreciate Gr.Ch.Buck living next door.

The Redboy-Jocko dogs are equally as game, but in "my opinion" it's cause they are just to stupid to quit. It's like a switch flips and they will keep on coming no matter what. Like a chicken with it's head held to the ground. Add to that that my experience with Redboy-Jocko dogs is that they are destructive high strung dogs that will run the chain until they die, destroy their doghouses, uproot tree roots.

Frankly, because of that , If I had to pick one or the other it would be the Hollingsworth line. Smarts trumps Retards. Thank goodness.. I dont have to pick one. Almost all my dogs are half of both. That being said, I own two pure Bolio-Tombstone dogs off Ch.Red Pirate to Miss Blitz. I do not own a pure Redboy-Jocko dog. I got rid of the bitch after the breeding to Bull because she was just too destructive. Even managed to destroy and eat some of a stainless steel bowl. That was the straw that broke the camels back. You guys can choose to go at it repeatedly, but there will be no winners. Gr.Ch.Yellow, Gr.Ch.Rodney, Super Gnat's Boots (4:52) Gr.Ch.john Boy, Ch.Yellowjohn, Ch. Rocko, Ch.Deadlift, and many more cement this bloodlines legacy. Crossed into the jeep or Rascal made Ch.yellowolf, Ch. Redman, Ch.Mystic, Ch. Bozak, Ch.Doogie, Ch.judy, and many more.

The Bolio-Tombstone line has a thousand dogs on it's own including Gr.Ch.buck (ROM) and a thousand Boyles winners. The Boyleslineis Hank x Redbaby. Redbaby is a Bolio dog and they used Bobby Jr. heavily. I dont care about west coast or east coast. to me, that is silly. There are many dogmen on the East Coast like STP and Captain America , Southern Kennels, Havannah Boys, Strictly Business that have done the deed well for many years, but the West Coast has just as many if not more. I guess you can sum it up with "to each their own" It is my opinion that half redboy-jocko and half Bolio-Tombstone is better than either on their own. But thats just my opinion based on my experience. i LOVE the Hollingsworth dogs, but if given the choice to cross it with Eli or Redboy-Jocko, its not even a choice. I believe the Redboy-Jocko dogs are 10x gamer than the Eli dogs, and the Termite strain of Jocko do punch just as hard as an Eli dog.

I will say this, because when we did it, we traveled all over the country. YOU MAKE YOUR NAME TRAVELING AND SPANKING PEOPLE IN THIER BACKYARD. Thats how we did it. More credibility to those that do it like that hunting down the hard competition than those that stay locally. I applaud Mr.Hollingsworth's "idiot savant" decision to breed to Yellow. I love my dogs . I urge both parties of this argument to take the high road and show leadership given our audience.


Thanks for posting this. I was wondering why my Hollingsworth machobuck dog was so stubborn. She has the coat like you mention. It would be good to have someone to ask about things like that. I thought she was a bad representative of her line. You can learn a lot listening to people with more experience talk or argue.

[PacStaySolo]

:-bd
No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

[BRICKFACE]

This thread was awesome lol

[YELLOWJOHN]

I believe the tread was redboy/jocko blood as a whole has produced more dead game dogs then any other line. I am not sure how it was taken out of context about being the best. I only assumed the statement was about the essence of these dogs period. does anyone have any insight to if this is not true? I honestly believe this to be true but could be wrong.

[EWO]

It was an awesome thread that waged on for weeks. It is five years old and I just re-read large parts of it. I still have the same opinion. It was an awesome statement, regardless of how accurate it turned out to be. If advertising bulldogs was smart it would be a great tag line on the cover of a magazine.

I was never a Red Boy Jocko fan. When I was cutting my teeth on these dogs they were Jocko-RedBoy dogs as Jocko was the dog doing the do at the time. In time the popularity of Red Boy took over and then they were RBJ dogs.

In the past few years I have seen where a number of RBJ dogs crossed with the Mims dogs are getting it done. Really impressive as well.

End of the day Mr. Waccamaw made a really cool statement.

EWO

[EWO]

I have enjoyed this board for quite some time. I re-newed to track down a guy I owed for a dog. Now that I have re-newed the best thing about the board is the pictures and the pictures of breedings.

Other than that, it is quite boring.

I think over the next few days I will breach some of the older subjects and maybe a few new ones.

I'm not trying to be the savior of the bulldog forums but for the next few weeks I will have a lot of time in the recliner and I am not that watch that much TV.

Maybe even convince CYJ of making another run on here. He is a guy with a life time of knowledge, real knowledge, first hand accounts of dogs 98% just have the chance to read about. Not to call on his 'seniority', but he has been around the block a time or two, the block most of us dreamed we grew up on. I'd pay his subscription if he'd chime in once or twice a week. I'd still get the better part of the deal.

EWO

[Frank43]

I still check the boards. I thought I had died. I have just been looking up test breedings on the pedigree tool. Oh yea. I had my first litter of pups. Been busy with them.

[ceasar]

I have enjoyed this board for quite some time. I re-newed to track down a guy I owed for a dog. Now that I have re-newed the best thing about the board is the pictures and the pictures of breedings.

Other than that, it is quite boring.

I think over the next few days I will breach some of the older subjects and maybe a few new ones.

I'm not trying to be the savior of the bulldog forums but for the next few weeks I will have a lot of time in the recliner and I am not that watch that much TV.

Maybe even convince CYJ of making another run on here. He is a guy with a life time of knowledge, real knowledge, first hand accounts of dogs 98% just have the chance to read about. Not to call on his 'seniority', but he has been around the block a time or two, the block most of us dreamed we grew up on. I'd pay his subscription if he'd chime in once or twice a week. I'd still get the better part of the deal.

EWO

This would be great. Your absolutely right snails pace around here yet somehow still worth the $30.
Been trying to get some friends and associates to join but they seem stuck on that peds online crap.

[Frank43]

I'd like to get some discussions going. I hate that the talk died down on here. I have some things I'd like to discuss.

[EWO]

Post away.

EWO

[Targo]

The statement is probably true but if 85 percent of the dogmen are using rb/Jocko it should be true. it would take a equal ratio of bloodlines to compare to say for sure.jmo

[EWO]

For me, it was a great catch phase because it can be interpreted two ways. One, RB/J dogs themselves have more dead game dogs and/or two, by going into a RB/J dog if your dog is game, he indeed will be dead game.

I never put much thought into whether either one was accurate or not. I just thought it was a cool statement.

I think I posted it before, if you were selling these dogs with a billboard, it would be about the best advertisement tag line.

EWO

[Frank43]

What was Chavis like?

[EWO]

A little before my time. I never met him. The dog that made him famous was his half of the Red Boy-Jocko dogs, the Ch. Jocko dog.

Back when I was a kid they were referred to as Jocko-Red Boy dogs as Jocko was the half of the breeding that was getting it done. For whatever reason, the Red Boy popularity sky rocketed over the years and in time they became Red Boy-Jocko dogs.

If someone can get CYJ to log on for this topic he can answer this question way better than most any one else.

A bulldog story......There was a dog named Cotton. He was owned by a guy just getting started in the dogs. He listened well and received a lot of help in the first show. Cotton won impressively. When Cotton came back out for #2 his new owner 'did not want help' as he had mastered the dogs. He bought a mill. The keep comprised of the dog running the mill for as long as the 12 pack and a couple of joints would last. On show night Cotton was nothing more than a dish rag. He got drug. The guy looked over and told his corner man I f%^&Ked Cotton up and it was a silent nod in agreement. Cotton made a game scratch and it was all he had. On the other dog's scratch Cotton had nothing left. The other dog toed the line.

On the ride home the first hour was how he regretted f'ing up a good dog. The second hour of the drive after 12 more cold ones, maybe ol' Cotton was not the dog they thought. On the last hour Cotton was a cur and it took the show to find it. The other guy on the driving said he would buy Cotton, his collar, his barrel, his chain and his axle for $300. Cotton was bought just before they got home.

Cotton was put back out there. Mr. Chavis picked the weight up and told everyone he knew that Cotton had nothing left in #2 and did not think he would be all that on his next trip out. He called twice a week to let the new owner know he would be waxed and waxed in short order. He was quite confident and quite full of himself. I always wondered if the confidence was in his dog or the fact Cotton did not show well in #2.

Cotton showed up, in condition, shaped by one of the best ever. Cotton changed Mr. Chavis' mind about a lot fo things that night.

The only information I have.

EWO

[Frank43]

Thanks. I always wonder what some of the old school guys were like. I think he’s one I would like to sit and talk to. I spend a lot of time studying pedigrees. I feel like I can look at pedigrees and see the kind of yard he had. He committed fully to red boy
, yellow and Jocko. A lot of his peds were super tight. Triple bred off yellow and red boy bred to double bred Jocko dogs. I wonder what traits he valued how he made his decisions. One thing said he wasn’t well off. Funny you say that about conditioning. I think most dogs get screwed by their owners. That help thing is interesting topic. There’s so much false info out and people value different things.

[EWO]

The Jocko-Red Boy dogs were rough, durable and game. As a family, I would venture to guess they had as many Ch's as any. Not using the title as a marker, but to say the dogs won long hard battles multiple times.

Way back then they were also called dumb ol' Jocko-Red Boy dogs. They would scratch to a sign post. Most would trade. A lot would take more than they gave but the durability and gameness outlasted the next guy.

I seen a number of them lose for an hour plus, and then have enough to be the winner in the end.

One of the better crosses was to the Hollingsworth dogs. If it did nothing else, it amped the intensity level ten times. That intensity and pressure took the family to the next level.

Seeing the same thing when the RBJ stuff is crossed to the Mims family of Snooty-Red Boy dogs.

And meeting Mr. Chavis would have been a pleasure for me as well. I'm as big of fan of the dog's history as I am the dogs themselves. Mr. Chavis played a huge role in where the dogs are at now compared to if he had not played his part in making the cross.

EWO

[Frank43]

It would have been good to walk their yards and see how they were. His first breedings did a lot to add to the prepotency of the strain. I wonder if he really thought about it. One thing said he didn't have a lot of money. If what we would call line breedings and inbreedings were really just. "This is where I live. This is what we have. I like how he goes that's his best daughter I want more like him." "How do you know it's too tight?" Breeding won't take or you get one pup. If that happens take him to one of those."

I like those 1/4 3/4 rbj to holingsworth dogs. and 50/50 dogs. I want to concentrate on that section of the universe. I think I'm intense. I like the same in my dogs.

[EWO]

I wish CYJ would chime in.

EWO

[Frank43]

A little before my time. I never met him. The dog that made him famous was his half of the Red Boy-Jocko dogs, the Ch. Jocko dog.

Back when I was a kid they were referred to as Jocko-Red Boy dogs as Jocko was the half of the breeding that was getting it done. For whatever reason, the Red Boy popularity sky rocketed over the years and in time they became Red Boy-Jocko dogs.

If someone can get CYJ to log on for this topic he can answer this question way better than most any one else.

A bulldog story......There was a dog named Cotton. He was owned by a guy just getting started in the dogs. He listened well and received a lot of help in the first show. Cotton won impressively. When Cotton came back out for #2 his new owner 'did not want help' as he had mastered the dogs. He bought a mill. The keep comprised of the dog running the mill for as long as the 12 pack and a couple of joints would last. On show night Cotton was nothing more than a dish rag. He got drug. The guy looked over and told his corner man I f%^&Ked Cotton up and it was a silent nod in agreement. Cotton made a game scratch and it was all he had. On the other dog's scratch Cotton had nothing left. The other dog toed the line.

On the ride home the first hour was how he regretted f'ing up a good dog. The second hour of the drive after 12 more cold ones, maybe ol' Cotton was not the dog they thought. On the last hour Cotton was a cur and it took the show to find it. The other guy on the driving said he would buy Cotton, his collar, his barrel, his chain and his axle for $300. Cotton was bought just before they got home.

Cotton was put back out there. Mr. Chavis picked the weight up and told everyone he knew that Cotton had nothing left in #2 and did not think he would be all that on his next trip out. He called twice a week to let the new owner know he would be waxed and waxed in short order. He was quite confident and quite full of himself. I always wondered if the confidence was in his dog or the fact Cotton did not show well in #2.

Cotton showed up, in condition, shaped by one of the best ever. Cotton changed Mr. Chavis' mind about a lot fo things that night.

The only information I have.

EWO

What happened to cotton. Was the other dogman a known person?

[EWO]

Cotton was bred a couple of times but not as much as he should have been.

The guy that owned him never really bred any dogs. He kept 8-10-12 dogs that were 'open to the world'. His calling card was conditioning. He won a bunch of matches in the late 70's, 80's and into the early 90's.

His name is really not out there because he never bred, nor sold dogs. Long term, winning and conditioning dogs is lost to breeding and puppy sales. Dogs that produce and people that breed dogs are what get remembered. A dog's accomplishments get devalued if he does not produce more of the same.

The guy I talk about is out of the dogs but still in and around the game. I won't call his name in a public forum. Sort of a respect thing.

Mr. Ozzie Stevens once said his dogs were conditioned as well as any thing he had seen. That was huge statement coming from Mr. Stevens, who is very well one of the greatest shapers ever.

EWO

[Frank43]

Cotton was bred a couple of times but not as much as he should have been.

The guy that owned him never really bred any dogs. He kept 8-10-12 dogs that were 'open to the world'. His calling card was conditioning. He won a bunch of matches in the late 70's, 80's and into the early 90's.

His name is really not out there because he never bred, nor sold dogs. Long term, winning and conditioning dogs is lost to breeding and puppy sales. Dogs that produce and people that breed dogs are what get remembered. A dog's accomplishments get devalued if he does not produce more of the same.

The guy I talk about is out of the dogs but still in and around the game. I won't call his name in a public forum. Sort of a respect thing.

Mr. Ozzie Stevens once said his dogs were conditioned as well as any thing he had seen. That was huge statement coming from Mr. Stevens, who is very well one of the greatest shapers ever.

EWO

I wasn’t asking to put his name out there. I always think the best people out there are never really known. I wouldn’t have a large yard. I wouldn’t breed a lot. I’d have a small family and work them. Too many lazy sorry people not knowing their dogs and wasting them and blaming the dogs. It’s just funny that a “no name” took a “good for nothing” dog and beat a solid guy.

[Frank43]

Cotton was bred a couple of times but not as much as he should have been.

The guy that owned him never really bred any dogs. He kept 8-10-12 dogs that were 'open to the world'. His calling card was conditioning. He won a bunch of matches in the late 70's, 80's and into the early 90's.

His name is really not out there because he never bred, nor sold dogs. Long term, winning and conditioning dogs is lost to breeding and puppy sales. Dogs that produce and people that breed dogs are what get remembered. A dog's accomplishments get devalued if he does not produce more of the same.

The guy I talk about is out of the dogs but still in and around the game. I won't call his name in a public forum. Sort of a respect thing.

Mr. Ozzie Stevens once said his dogs were conditioned as well as any thing he had seen. That was huge statement coming from Mr. Stevens, who is very well one of the greatest shapers ever.

EWO

How was cotton bred. And was this before or after Chavis started focusing on wind?

[apeman]

Classic Thread!

[EWO]

One of the best ever.

The title can read a couple different ways which made it an eye catcher from the start.

Then the content.

And then it went south but was way entertaining.

EWO

[brokeback]

I haven't reread it but it was certainly entertaining while it was going on lol.

[EWO]

It started a couple of trades with Jack and myself as well. I meant it would have been a great slogan as it could be read a couple different ways. Great wording.

That turned into me being on the opposite side than Jack and it went south quick.

Soon afterwards he gave me the boot.

But it was indeed a great thread. And to give Jack credit that cat can do some research and post some numbers.

Entertaining and informative.

EWO

[BRICKFACE]

how many guys got banned off this one? lolz

[EWO]

My getting bumped stemmed from this one but it was a couple of PM's between Jack and myself that got me on the wrong side of the owner/administrator.

Then after a few PM's where I questioned him being 'all things bulldog' my son finally gave him a reason.

We play jokes on one another all the time. He had got me with a good one and then walked out of the room while playing an on-line combat game. A SEAL team game I think. So I picked up his head set, pretending to be him, and 'came out as gay' to all his internet cartoon combat friends.

A day or so later I left the lap top up in this board and he answered questions/posts with 'jack-ass' answers and Jack gave me the boot for 'spamming' his board.

I sent him a personal e-mail and apologized. In that exchange I think I was suppose to 'bend at the knee' and I did not.

I got the boot.

EWO

[CrazyRed]

Might of been the greatest thread ever.

[apeman]

Bump up

[Frank43]

where do cottingham dogs fit into this. Just game or game and talent? Is Waccamaw still on here?

[EWO]

The Red Boy/Jocko dogs do well when crossed back to different strains of Red Boy. The Cottingham dogs are just as good as any when re-introducing the Red Boy.

There was a guy near here some years back that did the Tant's AAA to a daughter of Bear Jr. They were heavy mouthed, rough dogs. Dumb as a stump and would scratch to a sign post and would swap and trade just to be swapping and trading.

I think they scrapped just to be scrapping, seemed happy delivering or receiving.


But that was just one combination. I think those dogs were made to be bred, maybe like the next cross was going to make more complete dogs.

EWO

[Frank43]

The Red Boy/Jocko dogs do well when crossed back to different strains of Red Boy. The Cottingham dogs are just as good as any when re-introducing the Red Boy.

There was a guy near here some years back that did the Tant's AAA to a daughter of Bear Jr. They were heavy mouthed, rough dogs. Dumb as a stump and would scratch to a sign post and would swap and trade just to be swapping and trading.

I think they scrapped just to be scrapping, seemed happy delivering or receiving.


But that was just one combination. I think those dogs were made to be bred, maybe like the next cross was going to make more complete dogs.

EWO

I talked to someone about this possibility if I could create my own little rbjbt gene pool. Today I saw this on TG site. Maybe Ill take my female to Redboy. There are so many options. Few places to put all these dogs. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=73686&dam_id=76817. I bet they are fast and athletic as hell.

[IWK]

I talked to someone about this possibility if I could create my own little rbjbt gene pool. Today I saw this on TG site. Maybe Ill take my female to Redboy. There are so many options. Few places to put all these dogs. https://www.tomgarnerkennels.com/redboy-x-birdie-sparrow-1-20.shtml. I bet they are fast and athletic as hell.

That does look interesting. Curious to know how those turn out.

[apeman]

I talked to someone about this possibility if I could create my own little rbjbt gene pool. Today I saw this on TG site. Maybe Ill take my female to Redboy. There are so many options. Few places to put all these dogs. https://www.tomgarnerkennels.com/redboy-x-birdie-sparrow-1-20.shtml. I bet they are fast and athletic as hell.

These too:

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=73686&dam_id=76778

[Frank43]

These too:

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=73686&dam_id=76778


Hell yea. I was looking at that hickson jr and that lever red blood. That would go good in the mix too. What traits do those hickson lever red dogs throw?

[Frank43]

I was out in the woods looking for hogs alone. I came upon a guy that was squirrel hunting with two little bird dogs or something. He looked at me funny because i had my 10.5 ar with me. He told me how one day he came up on a sow with some piglets. He said the sow charged him. His terriers ran behind him. I couldn't imagine a worse feeling. i couldn't imagine leaving two dogs in the woods faster. I need to know my hog dog goes forward at all costs. Works ear, muzzle and throat. I'm not sure i need gator jaws. He just needs to be smart enough to adjust, fast enough to get where he needs to be, tough enough to ride it out, mouth enough to keep his hold and finish if opportunity presents itself.

[apeman]

Hell yea. I was looking at that hickson jr and that lever red blood. That would go good in the mix too. What traits do those hickson lever red dogs throw?

Years ago, the good ones were smart and durable. I couldn't tell you anything about Hickson Jr. but the pups off his daughter, Kora, look good.

[Frank43]

Years ago, the good ones were smart and durable. I couldn't tell you anything about Hickson Jr. but the pups off his daughter, Kora, look good.

I think at this point. You just have to read some history. Trust some people that know. Think about what you value and raise some pups.

[Frank43]

What other options are there. The Journal has been KIA

[apeman]

It's an expensive life to live. Get out and see some dogs. Find out what you like. Establish some relationships. If you have dogs already, put the work in and grow with them.

[Frank43]

with who is the prob. one per side with a ref doesn't interest too many people

[Frank43]

and why can't the journal come back?

[Frank43]

Can the journal be separated into two magazines.

[STA8541]

This is an incredible thread. Definitely worth re-reading. I'm sorry about the fireworks, though: both Sonny & Jack were & are great dogmen, & neophytes (like me) can sure learn tons from them, even on here. The tragic thing is I truly believe it all started over a misunderstanding between them about what was being claimed! As EWO stated, the title can read a couple different ways, & maybe they were looking past each other, I don't know. I do know poor EWO, one of the finest contributors on this site imo, very informative, got caught up in the backwash & got the boot for awhile...crazy!

In any case, lotta good information here regardless of the side roads, lots to think about, & thanks to everybody that contributed.

[State Bull]

Old post that was very interesting.. I believe what Wac was referring to the first generation Red Boy/Jocko bred by Mr. D. Green, which were straight out destroyers!! The second wave from Fletcher were not as heavy Jocko as Mr. Greens batch. But just as devastating with heart!

Mr.Green was a great breeder and had equally good dogs.

I have seen a few off the original blood. There was a reason they were popular years prior.

With the Wac line they didn't start letting their blood out until the late ninties early two thousand. With that being noted.. Many ruined the dogs early and then cried foul.lol.

[EWO]

Yep, in just a few days I got the boot for 'basically not taking sides' as the statement would be a world class marketing claim. Either there were more RBJ dogs that were dead game or they were such destroyers they made other game dogs dead. I am not sure a bulldog customer could be drawn in any better.

That was my point. And I think I clearly stated I could not care any less about which side would prevail or should prevail and that pissed Jack off. The 'you are with me or against me approach'.

Within a day or so someone or Jack brought back up the 87% game claim and I questioned what were the factors being used. He then gave me the standard more winners, more champions, than anyone else claim. And I replied that if every one is a 'fuck-tard' like you say how do you make all them puppies and get them onto the yards where 9 out of 10 do all the right things? So 87% is feasible if you get to blame the quitters on the people who bought/raised them. So he blasted me pretty hard because I said he was simply better at copying and pasting than me, and that the majority of his book was copy and paste from someone else (great book, maybe even the best as it was current but I mentioned we were building one sheet dog boxes in the 70's before he even new what a bulldog was).

The final straw was funny to me but he did not see the humor in it. My son and I play crude jokes on each other til this day. He left his game system on and I picked up the head set and acted like I was him and came out gay to all his friends. My son was pissed as he had to listen see all the gay bashing coming his way via the XBox crowd.

A day or so later I left the lap top up and he made stupid comments on several posts, especially Jack's. My favorite was someone applauded Jack on the great look of a dog he posted and Jack responded with the high end quality of his photography equipment and of course his superior skills.

My son commented under my name and said, "Great canine photography is easy when neither the dog nor the lenses has ever been scratched".

From there, I had 'spammed' his board and got the boot.

I apologized to the board to no avail and I was banned til Brick got the site.

I would still rank this thread with one of the top two or three in any of the forums.

And to the ones that want to see those first generation Jocko Red Boy dogs from Waccamaw look for the Chicora II blood. She is turning back time.

EWO

[STA8541]

My son commented under my name and said, "Great canine photography is easy when neither the dog nor the lenses has ever been scratched".

From there, I had 'spammed' his board and got the boot.

I apologized to the board to no avail and I was banned til Brick got the site.

Glad you're back. You help make this place very interesting and helpful and informative.

[SGC]

Glad you're back. You help make this place very interesting and helpful and informative.

Yes, EWO you have made some excellent posts. Hard to believe the site has been here 10 yrs now. It's a bit quiet here at times but none of the trash talk etc of other places.

This is a good thread, like many others. These older threads tend to slide down over time and unless they are bumped up they get missed. Maybe some of the better threads could be made a "sticky" at the top of the page so they are easier to find?

Glad you are back EWO, you and CYJ really make this board a good one!