Redboy / jocko has made more dead game dogs !

[waccamaw]

It is a known fact that the redboy / jocko dogs have made more dogs dead game !!

[EWO]

I am no expert on the statistics but either way, that is one of the coolest statements I have read about the dogs. EWO

[Nextlevel]

It is a known fact that the redboy / jocko dogs have made more dogs dead game !!


Redboy/Jocko fans stand up!!!!!!

[waccamaw]

I little different ,but true .

[CYJ]

How about Jocko /Red Boy dogs instead of Red Boy/Jocko dogs. When it all started out it was those Jocko/ Red Boy dogs. Than later on it became the Red Boy/Jocko dogs.

Still a very somber quote, will be interesting to see what the stats show. Cheers

[S_B]

Haha I like it!

[Thunder98]

:-bd

[Macker]

Is this in reflection to the tread about the Hollingsworth dogs??

[EWO]

True. It is funny how the Red Boy has moved out front over the years. There is an older guy around here that still refers to them as Jocko-Redboy dogs. He beat FC with a dog named Ch. Cotton way back when. He said back then (first sets of dogs coming off the first few crosses) these dogs would change the game. They were rough and durable, dumb as a stump but game. Game to the bone. He always said when going into one to pack a lunch, you better be ready to be there awhile.

But in reference to another post, the overwhelming popularity of "anything Redboy" changed the name to RBJ. EWO




How about Jocko /Red Boy dogs instead of Red Boy/Jocko dogs. When it all started out it was those Jocko/ Red Boy dogs. Than later on it became the Red Boy/Jocko dogs.

Still a very somber quote, will be interesting to see what the stats show. Cheers

[waccamaw]

Is this in reflection to the tread about the Hollingsworth dogs??

No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

[Officially Retired]

No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.


No, I have not noticed that. In fact, that's about as false as statements get.

In point of fact, the winngest dogs in history don't have a drop of RBJ in them.
I don't think they produce the most devastating killers either. Queen of Hearts (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919), Molly B (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117), Shady Lady (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=616), Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) ... not a drop.
The absolutey baddest crosses with my own line were to Eli, Chinaman, or Coca Cola dogs.

Statistically, there are more winners with Eli blood and/or Bolio blood in them than RBJ.
Bolio/Eli, Bolio/Boomerang (and even Jeep/Redboy dogs) have ALL been been major, dominant forces out there also ... with not a drop of RBJ.
And let's not forget the avalanche of awesome, multi-winning Jeep/Rascal dogs too ...

I do agree RBJ dogs are an undeniably great, very consistent line of dogs though. Absolutely.
But they sure as hell don't produce "all" the good ones, not by a longshot.

Jack

[Jrbulldogs]

preach jack

[Nextlevel]

No, I have not noticed that. In fact, that's about as false as statements get.

In point of fact, the winngest dogs in history don't have a drop of RBJ in them.
I don't think they produce the most devastating killers either. Queen of Hearts (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919), Molly B (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117), Shady Lady (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=616), Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) ... not a drop.
The absolutey baddest crosses with my own line were to Eli, Chinaman, or Coca Cola dogs.

Statistically, there are more winners with Eli blood and/or Bolio blood in them than RBJ.
Bolio/Eli, Bolio/Boomerang (and even Jeep/Redboy dogs) have ALL been been major, dominant forces out there also ... with not a drop of RBJ.
And let's not forget the avalanche of awesome, multi-winning Jeep/Rascal dogs too ...

I do agree RBJ dogs are an undeniably great, very consistent line of dogs though. Absolutely.
But they sure as hell don't produce "all" the good ones, not by a longshot.

Jack


Most of the kennels that won in the 90's and 2000's had redboy jocko in their pedigree..... Waccamaw, Southern kennels, Hardcore, Hell on Earth, Carolina kennels, Stone City kennels, undertaker kennels (Mrs. Leaky foundation bitch) Evolution Kennels, Tant, Mr Burns and cross road kennels....that's just a few it's a hell of a lot more with the offspring of those foundation dogs for those kennels... Just my two cents....you won't find a more highlighted working stock then those accomplishments of those kennels.....I can't speak on what happen before the 90's.... That's when I got my first journal...except for reading Stratton books ( hey I had to learn somewhere )

[Officially Retired]

Most of the kennels that won in the 90's and 2000's had redboy jocko in their pedigree..... Waccamaw, Southern kennels, Hardcore, Hell on Earth, Carolina kennels, Stone City kennels, undertaker kennels (Mrs. Leaky foundation bitch) Evolution Kennels, Tant, Mr Burns and cross road kennels....that's just a few it's a hell of a lot more with the offspring of those foundation dogs for those kennels... Just my two cents....you won't find a more highlighted working stock then those accomplishments of those kennels.....I can't speak on what happen before the 90's.... That's when I got my first journal...except for reading Stratton books ( hey I had to learn somewhere )

I never said that RBJ dogs weren't great. In fact I do believe I directly said they were both great and consistent as a bloodline.

But the idea that "most" kennels use them ... or that they've produced "the baddest" ... or "all" of the great dogs out there ... is absolutely asinine.

FACT:
My dogs have beat every HOE dog they ever faced (3); they've also beaten at least 1 Hardcore dog (a daughter of Bozack);
One of Southern Kennels' finest Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) was defeated by the Jeep dog Gr Ch Da Beast (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065) (who came up to 52 lb to beat him);
And Stone City's #1 dog, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431), was beaten by the Eli/Carver dog Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952).
I could go on and on ...

So, again, NO, sorry, the RBJ dogs are good ... and I mean no disrespect to the line ... because I agree they are as competitive as the other great lines out there ... but they do NOT have a lock on either winning or "badness" ... not by a longshot.

Jack

[Nextlevel]

I never said that RBJ dogs weren't great. In fact I do believe I directly said they were both great and consistent as a bloodline.

But the idea that they've produced "the baddest" ... or "all" of the great dogs out there ... is absolutely asinine.

FACT:
My dogs have beat every HOE dog they ever faced (3); they've also beaten at least 1 Hardcore dog (a daughter of Bozack);
One of Southern Kennels' finest Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) was defeated by the Jeep dog Gr Ch Da Beast (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065) (who came up to 52 lb to beat him);
And Stone City's #1 dog, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431), was beaten by the Eli/Carver dog Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952).
I could go on and on ...

So, again, NO, sorry, the RBJ dogs are good ... and I mean no disrespect to the line ... because I agree they are as competitive as the other great lines out there ... but they do NOT have a lock on either winning or "badness" ... not by a longshot.

Jack

I agree with your post 100%. No line of dogs has a lock on the game but when you talk about consistency and high ability animals .... Redboy/ Jocko and crosses are second to none.... You have your occasional destroyers from other lines of dogs.... But the percentage of hounds in those liters are drastically lower....( not speaking on Poncho hounds I have never ran across one ) ... I'm starting to get mid 40's to high 30's hounds hopefully in the future I get a chance to compete with some....

[Officially Retired]

I agree with your post 100%. No line of dogs has a lock on the game but when you talk about consistency and high ability animals .... Redboy/ Jocko and crosses are second to none.... You have your occasional destroyers from other lines of dogs.... But the percentage of hounds in those liters are drastically lower....( not speaking on Poncho hounds I have never ran across one ) ... I'm starting to get mid 40's to high 30's hounds hopefully in the future I get a chance to compete with some....


I agree that RBJ dogs are as good and competitive as any of the great lines, with a boatload of accomplishments, true.

My disagreement was that they have EVER produced either "the baddest" killing dogs in history ... OR "all" the good dogs ... either today, recently, in the past, or at any other time in history.

That is simply flat-out untrue.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I never said that RBJ dogs weren't great. In fact I do believe I directly said they were both great and consistent as a bloodline.

But the idea that "most" kennels use them ... or that they've produced "the baddest" ... or "all" of the great dogs out there ... is absolutely asinine.



FACT:
My dogs have beat every HOE dog they ever faced (3); they've also beaten at least 1 Hardcore dog (a daughter of Bozack);
One of Southern Kennels' finest Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) was defeated by the Jeep dog Gr Ch Da Beast (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065) (who came up to 52 lb to beat him);
And Stone City's #1 dog, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431), was beaten by the Eli/Carver dog Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952).
I could go on and on ...

So, again, NO, sorry, the RBJ dogs are good ... and I mean no disrespect to the line ... because I agree they are as competitive as the other great lines out there ... but they do NOT have a lock on either winning or "badness" ... not by a longshot.

Jack

Hoe was not the dog butch was told he was ,but that dog beside my name ch big John now that was one more bad ass he would flat eat a hog ,i got a dog right now named solo ( the cannibal) ,just like him.only thing is I can't hunt him with bay dogs ,he eats anything with four legs .i might have to have him put down being I can't hunt him with bay dogs .he ate 3 of em.

[waccamaw]

No, I have not noticed that. In fact, that's about as false as statements get.

In point of fact, the winngest dogs in history don't have a drop of RBJ in them.
I don't think they produce the most devastating killers either. Queen of Hearts (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919), Molly B (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117), Shady Lady (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=616), Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) ... not a drop.
The absolutey baddest crosses with my own line were to Eli, Chinaman, or Coca Cola dogs.

Statistically, there are more winners with Eli blood and/or Bolio blood in them than RBJ.
Bolio/Eli, Bolio/Boomerang (and even Jeep/Redboy dogs) have ALL been been major, dominant forces out there also ... with not a drop of RBJ.
And let's not forget the avalanche of awesome, multi-winning Jeep/Rascal dogs too ...

I do agree RBJ dogs are an undeniably great, very consistent line of dogs though. Absolutely.
But they sure as hell don't produce "all" the good ones, not by a longshot.

Jack
Ca jack if you look back in the ped of the redboy / jocko you will see the same dogs as in tornado .

[CYJ]

Waccamaw the V. Jackson Hank dog and the Kelley's Willie dog were both hard core cannibals. The Hank dog, when on a dog was not just trying to be dominant with a high prey drive. He or the Willie dog was trying to kill the dog in front of them and have a nice lunch afterwards. LOL Vernon or Mr. Kelley have come home to find some ones hunting dog or a puppy that got out of the pen. Devoured or being devoured. Like the wolves though would leave the head. Cheers

[waccamaw]

We have to A.I. 90% of our dogs !high prey drive ?a hog can run a tusk from one side to the next break their jaw !it don't bother them at all as far as they know they are still going to eat the hog .that is what I like about the redboy / jocko all around dog on average .

[Black Hand]

We have to A.I. 90% of our dogs !high prey drive ?a hog can run a tusk from one side to the next break their jaw !it don't bother them at all as far as they know they are still going to eat the hog .that is what I like about the redboy / jocko all around dog on average .

Wacc, sounds like a pain in the ass.

[waccamaw]

Wacc, sounds like a pain in the ass.

It can be a pain in the ass ,but then gain they have been known to be a pain in the ass lol.

[waccamaw]

I hope nobody has taken my post the wrong ,just bringing to light the original RBJ .but they all trace back to the same dogs.

[creek_bottom]

I'm waiting on these to drop now and I have some high hopes for them RBJ with some Jeep blood I'm sure you will recognize a few dogs in this ped Waccamaw
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=383640&myPedigrees=1

[creek_bottom]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=4897

[Blueprint]

Nice breeding Creek

[waccamaw]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=4897

That is a pretty good cross .you will have good luck with it .

[Blueprint]

Wac who is your best producing stud? I've been interested in your blood forever. I tried to get something from you years ago but talked to you once and couldn't get you aagain. So I went this way and it turned out good. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15857 I shouldn't have let her go

[swampdawg]

U know those Hollingsworth hounds look alot like redboy hounds.

[EWO]

Here we go...






U know those Hollingsworth hounds look alot like redboy hounds.

[Officially Retired]

Ca jack if you look back in the ped of the redboy / jocko you will see the same dogs as in tornado .

We must be from different planets then :mrgreen:

Tornado is no more closely related to the RBJ dogs than I am related to your sister.
They're both pit bulls (and we're both Caucasian human beings), and that's about it :lol:

The simple proof is to run a 10-generation pedigree search on Yellow bred to Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=111&dam_id=9349), and you don't even get 2 tenths of 1% :exclamation:

So I don't know how you came up with the idea that Tornado has anything to do with RBJ dogs ... but she sure isn't even remotely related.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

We have to A.I. 90% of our dogs !high prey drive ?a hog can run a tusk from one side to the next break their jaw !it don't bother them at all as far as they know they are still going to eat the hog .that is what I like about the redboy / jocko all around dog on average .


A dog having "prey drive" is great ... and I love a cannibal also.

Not saying RBJ dogs don't produce these traits; I am sure they do.

I am saying that they sure don't produce "all the good ones" (like you said); it's not even close.
They are also not on the top list of "awesome, brutal killers" either.

Hell, Silverback was a stone-killer, but that doesn't mean he actually went out there and topped Molly B's record. Big difference.

No one is questioning that the RBJ GOOD (some GREAT) ... but saying they make up "all" the good ones ... or that they've killed more dogs than ALL the other strains is about as far from reality as saying Tornado was a RBJ dog :-O

The fact is they get killed and beaten by many of the other bloodlines too.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

U know those Hollingsworth hounds look alot like redboy hounds.

They do have a similarity, at first blush, true.

But, having put my hands on both, the Hollingsworth dogs were more muscular, and had a greater density and strength to them.

This is why, bred pure, they could actually go 2 hours with some of the baddest match dogs alive, while not many pure RB dogs can do that.

Jack

[waccamaw]

We must be from different planets then :mrgreen:

Tornado is no more closely related to the RBJ dogs than I am related to your sister.
They're both pit bulls (and we're both Caucasian human beings), and that's about it :lol:

The simple proof is to run a 10-generation pedigree search on Yellow bred to Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=111&dam_id=9349), and you don't even get 2 tenths of 1% :exclamation:

So I don't know how you came up with the idea that Tornado has anything to do with RBJ dogs ... but she sure isn't even remotely related.

Jackhow I came up with it ,I looked at both dogs Peds ,both go back to laposy and teals sarge ,don't know what planet you come from if you don't see that!,just like jocko goes back to Tudors Dibo.

[Officially Retired]

Well, all I can tell you is no pedigree program on earth, nor any knowledgeable dogman I know, would call those two dogs "related" ...

There are 2046 dogs in a 10-gen pedigree, so (sorry) if Teal's Sarge is in there 7-gen back a couple times it means nothing.

Calling the dogs "related" would be the text book definition of a "stretch" ...

[waccamaw]

Any way you want to twist it jack ,they both go back to laposy and jocko goes back to dibo.

[waccamaw]

With bulldogs you got to know where you came from to know where you gonna go or else you just gonna get lost

[Officially Retired]

Actually, it's any way you want to misunderstand it.
Because if anyone is doing some twisting it's you.

Bolio dogs go back to Dibo at some point.
So do Eli dogs.
So do a lot of other dogs.
It does NOT mean they're the same bloodline or even remotely related.
Relatedness depends on QUANTITY of dogs and/or their POSITION within the pedigree.
And there are almost ZERO dog in common in the two dogs' peds. Literally almost zero.
And their position in relation to their pedigrees is absolutely meaningless.

There isn't a single common dog anywhere in a 6-generation pedigree.
There isn't a single common dog anywhere in a 7-generation pedigree.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""8-generation pedigree. Not one.

Again, we should simply agree to disagree.

In your eyes, I am wrong, I am "twisting things," the pedigree coefficient is wrong, etc.
In my eyes, you simply don't know what you're talking about if you think Tornado has anything whatsoever to do with RBJ dogs.

So we can just leave it like that.

Jack

[waccamaw]

Actually, it's any way you want to misunderstand it.
Because if anyone is doing some twisting it's you.

Bolio dogs go back to Dibo at some point.
So do Eli dogs.
So do a lot of other dogs.
It does NOT mean they're the same bloodline or even remotely related.
Relatedness depends on QUANTITY of dogs and/or their POSITION within the pedigree.
And there are almost ZERO dog in common in the two dogs' peds. Literally almost zero.
And their position in relation to their pedigrees is absolutely meaningless.

There isn't a single common dog anywhere in a 6-generation pedigree.
There isn't a single common dog anywhere in a 7-generation pedigree.
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""8-generation pedigree. Not one.

Again, we should simply agree to disagree.

In your eyes, I am wrong, I am "twisting things," the pedigree coefficient is wrong, etc.
In my eyes, you simply don't know what you're talking about if you think Tornado has anything whatsoever to do with RBJ dogs.

So we can just leave it like that.

Jack
Anyway you want to say it jack they both go back to laposy ,just like jocko goes back to dibo.and I never said tornado had anything to do with RBJ ,I said they go back to the same dogs .meaning if tornado had it they could and many do have as well .

[waccamaw]

I know those Hollingsworth dogs aren't what you say they are and they never were !! The best Hollingsworth dogs came when the old man bred to yellow ,just like the best mayday dogs came when bred back to RBJ .or maybe those Hollingsworth dogs were on the same planet that buck beat jr on .

[Officially Retired]

I do understand what you're saying ... but (for example) at 10 generations, Poncho is 15% Dibo ... and Big John is 0% Dibo ...

But at 14 generations Big John is 7% Dibo ... so Poncho and Big John (at vastly different points in their pedigrees) do share Dibo a bit ... but that doesn't mean they are even remotely related.

Hope this makes sense.

[waccamaw]

But any way that was a fun topic ,time to move on .we starting to act like that other board had to catch myself.

[Officially Retired]

Lol, true.

It's kinda fascinating how many dogs share distant relatives ... but then branch off in so many directions.

Butcher Boy, Bolio, and Boomerang have many common ancestors. Tombstone too. Yet they each carry different traits.

I don't know the RB dogs as well, but there's a lot of Colby ties if I remember right ... into Loposay, as you mentioned.

[waccamaw]

Lol, true.

It's kinda fascinating how many dogs share distant relatives ... but then branch off in so many directions.

Butcher Boy, Bolio, and Boomerang have many common ancestors. Tombstone too. Yet they each carry different traits.

I don't know the RB dogs as well, but there's a lot of Colby ties if I remember right ... into Loposay, as you mentioned.

I would say most can trace back to Colby

[waccamaw]

In each line it comes down to the breeder ,as what trait he is trying to master .if a man has enough time in life he can breed just about any trait .if he is strict and has common sense.in his breeding practice .

[waccamaw]

Like all Eli are not heavy mouth depends on the breeder

[swampdawg]

They can all trace their ancestors back to monkeys anyway or is that us.

[Officially Retired]

In each line it comes down to the breeder ,as what trait he is trying to master .if a man has enough time in life he can breed just about any trait .if he is strict and has common sense.in his breeding practice .

I would agree with that.

[EWO]

Wolves are the same. Coyotes are the same. Dogs would be the same if it were not for the fact dogs are bred by people and those dogs use nature as a guide. Dibo, Poncho, Bolio, Bullet are all 'related' in the sense they are all pit bulldogs and at some point the pedigrees/ancestry would inevitably cross paths. The reason there is more uniformity in the Wolf population is there is no man to pick and choose what traits to breed for, or heck, some even choose by color.

Same reason Waccamaw RBJ dogs can be different from Tant's RBJ dogs. Lots of shared family members but can be different dogs altogether. Same with the Red Boy dogs. They can all be Red Boy dogs but the different breeders breeding for different reasons make different dogs.

With that said, and it is only a personal opinion, with it and $.75 you might be able to buy a soft drink, once a breeder sells a dog it is the first step in that dog no longer being a part of the original breeder's line. The second owner will not make all the same decisions, raise the same way, school the same way, cull the same way and in the end breed the same way. If I buy two Waccamaw dogs and breed them based on what I am looking for then they revert back to being RBJ dogs more so than Waccamaw RBJ dogs. Same with any other line, because in fact, that is how the lines are created. Every line has to start somewhere and if all the 'somewheres' are traced back, eventually they will connect.

Great topic. And even better opening line. I didn't really care about the facts or statistics, or even the opinions, it was a really cool wording. EWO





Lol, true.

It's kinda fascinating how many dogs share distant relatives ... but then branch off in so many directions.

Butcher Boy, Bolio, and Boomerang have many common ancestors. Tombstone too. Yet they each carry different traits.




I don't know the RB dogs as well, but there's a lot of Colby ties if I remember right ... into Loposay, as you mentioned.

[loot]

Hoe was not the dog butch was told he was ,but that dog beside my name ch big John now that was one more bad ass he would flat eat a hog ,i got a dog right now named solo ( the cannibal) ,just like him.only thing is I can't hunt him with bay dogs ,he eats anything with four legs .i might have to have him put down being I can't hunt him with bay dogs .he ate 3 of em.

I'II take him off your hands.

[ChuckyDukes]

No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

The 3 best I've seen have not a drop of Yellow, redboy/jocko blood in them. I've experienced the opposite from the line. They lacked smarts and ability from the ones I saw. Great, legendary bloodline for sure.

[Officially Retired]

The 3 best I've seen have not a drop of Yellow, redboy/jocko blood in them. I've experienced the opposite from the line. They lacked smarts and ability from the ones I saw. Great, legendary bloodline for sure.

That is pretty much the way it's been for me. I have owned a few, schooled with a bunch, and known plenty with a lot of that stuff.

The pure ones I've seen have been slow and dumb by my standards. A couple had some real good mouth though.
The best ones I have seen seemed very rugged, and very determined, but again were slow.
Seen a couple of crosses that were pretty darned good, the whole package, but I have seen some crosses that were rank curs too. And I do mean rank.

But my Top 30 List of the absolute best dogs I have seen (dogs that were super-fast, freak-strong, athletic, smart, absolutely determined, with finish) has none of that blood in it.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

They can all trace their ancestors back to monkeys anyway or is that us.

Wolves..however... The reference to humans coming from monkeys is stupid. We share a common ancestor...we don't come from monkeys.. a few million years ago.. Yes.we were indeed one hominid..as evolution happened... One branched off into monkeys...one into humans... And if you don't believe that...compare DNA.. chimps and us DNA is 96% identical

[EWO]

Way back when I was a youngster, and they were Jocko-Redboy dogs, they often referred to as dumb 'ol Jocko-Redboy dogs. You have to beat the hell out of them, as they just keep coming, sometimes just to be coming. They bite hard and they just stay. Dogs wilted under them from time and pressure. Then over time things got better thru selection.

I think the original Red Boy dogs were the same. They had some shortcomings in the beginning and lots of those were corrected and then they were "RED BOY" dogs. Popularity and mass production have left most of them to be 'red boy' dogs. I do not see that as much with the RB-J (JR-B) dogs. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Way back when I was a youngster, and they were Jocko-Redboy dogs, they often referred to as dumb 'ol Jocko-Redboy dogs. You have to beat the hell out of them, as they just keep coming, sometimes just to be coming. They bite hard and they just stay. Dogs wilted under them from time and pressure. Then over time things got better thru selection.

That makes sense ... except that all the ones I have seen (the good ones) ... were pretty much still "slow, dumb dogs that kept at it" ... and the only improvement to that basic package was when the Bolio blood was added to it, not by adding more RBJ.

Bolio dogs are the ones who add the speed/brains to most of what they get blended with ... especially the right Bolio dogs ;)

Jack

[Blueprint]

I definitely like it blended with the Hollingsworth blood. My rbj blood is coming thru this. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=16860 They have speed and ability like my Vise Grip dogs. They are game tuff durable smart dogs. I must say that my Vise Grip dogs are freakishly strong athletic and smart . That's why I love the breeding I just made http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=4808 I know they will be Awesome!!!! Can't wait.. Blueprint

[Officially Retired]

I definitely like it blended with the Hollingsworth blood. My rbj blood is coming thru this. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=16860 They have speed and ability like my Vise Grip dogs. They are game tuff durable smart dogs. I must say that my Vise Grip dogs are freakishly strong athletic and smart . That's why I love the breeding I just made http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedingprofile.php?breeding_id=4808 I know they will be Awesome!!!! Can't wait.. Blueprint

Very nice! You should definitely get some good ones :)

... but DAMN you have your dogs too fat ... way too fat :-t

[waccamaw]

I'II take him off your hands.
Reckon I will have to keep him .ha,ha.

[waccamaw]

That is pretty much the way it's been for me. I have owned a few, schooled with a bunch, and known plenty with a lot of that stuff.

The pure ones I've seen have been slow and dumb by my standards. A couple had some real good mouth though.
The best ones I have seen seemed very rugged, and very determined, but again were slow.
Seen a couple of crosses that were pretty darned good, the whole package, but I have seen some crosses that were rank curs too. And I do mean rank.

But my Top 30 List of the absolute best dogs I have seen (dogs that were super-fast, freak-strong, athletic, smart, absolutely determined, with finish) has none of that blood in it.

Jack
I can tell you this, nobody wont tell you that. The dogs we hunt with are slow ,weak,dumb ,no mouth .i. Fact our dogs are extremely fast on trail,and death on a pigs heel.
A lot of the RBJ dogs now have to many outs .same with a lot of other dogs ,and as far as all these smart fast tombstone bolio dogs only a few out there ,and I am not going on hear say ,and I will give that to evolution ,and Bullard .and they had RBJ in them ,well Bullard put RBJ in his after a few hunts .these are the only two that has traits I like .

[Blueprint]

Yeah Jack they are FAT! LOL I always fatten them up around breeding time. I'm guilty of over doing it. Been giving plenty extra in hope of a large healthy litter.

[waccamaw]

Yeah Jack they are FAT! LOL I always fatten them up around breeding time. I'm guilty of over doing it. Been giving plenty extra in hope of a large healthy litter.

Better to fat than to poor

[Officially Retired]

Better to fat than to poor

Better in excellent athletic shape, fed the best food possible, than either fat or poor.

[EWO]

This is my point exactly. Selection. I am willing to bet the dogs you are working today are better than the dogs from yesterday. That happens through selection.

and which Bullard? Bullard of Ch. Jack and Daisy ROM? EWO




I can tell you this, nobody wont tell you that. The dogs we hunt with are slow ,weak,dumb ,no mouth .i. Fact our dogs are extremely fast on trail,and death on a pigs heel.
A lot of the RBJ dogs now have to many outs .same with a lot of other dogs ,and as far as all these smart fast tombstone bolio dogs only a few out there ,and I am not going on hear say ,and I will give that to evolution ,and Bullard .and they had RBJ in them ,well Bullard put RBJ in his after a few hunts .these are the only two that has traits I like .

[waccamaw]

Better in excellent athletic shape, fed the best food possible, than either fat or poor.
How fat was this dog ,I now have an image of a barrle with legs

[Officially Retired]

Click on the link of her being bred. She used to shine like new money, and be rippling with muscles. Now she IS a "barrel with legs" ...

[EWO]

I read that, went out ran three of my dogs on the mill just out of guilt. EWO

[Blueprint]

The day before I bred them. Don't look so fat does he.

[Blueprint]

Same dogs different angle :shocked:

[Officially Retired]

I appreciate your attempt to be civil, but even those tiny, poor-quality photos can't hide the fact they look way too fat, plain and simple.

Ray Charles could see that.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Once again that's your opinion. Facts are I sold one of her pups and have the rest thank you very much. I can count the number of dogs I've sold on my two hands. If I decided to sell them all it would be my choice. I've heard people say that you didn't feed yours enough. It's 6 in 1 & 1/2 dozen in the other. By the way I'm not trying to prove anything it is what it is. Everyone can see the pictures for themselves and if they don't Boo Hoo I'll cry because someone said my dog's too fat.

Carry on as you are then. I am not going to debate someone who's impervious to education.
Anyone who says my dogs are "too thin" is simply an ignorant newbie that has NO IDEA what ANYTHING looks like in optimal shape.

Here's the dog I have now, Amazon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=222), and she looks like how a dog should look, if her owner actually knows what kind of shape an ATHLETE should be in: lean, NO excess fat, shiny coat.

Again, as they say, a picture's worth a thousand words, so let's take a look at the photos Coca-Rilla now:


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000213_01.jpg
My Way

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/pics/dog_000213_02.jpg?453025
Your Way

Yeah, everybody has an opinion. But you need to have the sense to recognize the opinion of someone who's never accomplished anything versus THE OPINION OF SOMEONE WHO'S BRED WINNERS ALL OVER THE WORLD ... and you need to have the sense to know WHICH opinion to listen to when opinions differ.

Babbling a lot of meaningless phrases ("6 of one, 1/2 dozen of the other" ... "it is what it is" ... etc.) is a substitute for you saying anything of worth in response. And that is because you're ACTUAL KNOWLEDGE = ZERO.
So here's another phrase for you, "Some people have something to say, while others have to say something."

Like I said, you should just STOP talking and LISTEN to what I am saying. I am not trying to "hurt you" ... I am trying TO HELP my dog ... that is in DEPLORABLE CONDITION while in your care.

What you call "care" is malpractice.

Jack

[Blueprint]

I never said I'm not listening you've just been very disrespectful and rude as usual. I said from the jump I value and RESPECT your advice.

[Officially Retired]

I am sorry, but I am very angry.

Disrespectful to you? Showing me my bitch looking like that is disrespectful to me (and to her).

When you first sent me her photos, I told you she looked terrible, and you said to me you were going to feed her an optimal raw diet.
I liked you and I believed you.

Clearly, that dog is NOT in optimal health nor being fed an optimal diet.

I have "educated eyes" ... and they can't be fooled. I know what an optimally-raw-fed dog looks like, and (in your care) she does not look like that.
I also know that bitch personally, and I know what she SHOULD look like (and what she DID look like) while under my care ... and it sure isn't how she's looking now.

"Listening" to someone means more than just "reading their words," it means adopting the practices they recommend because what they say actually resonates with you.

It is not much more difficult to feed and do everything optimally, so it is still amazing to me how SO MANY choose not to.

Jack

[waccamaw]

Wac who is your best producing stud? I've been interested in your blood forever. I tried to get something from you years ago but talked to you once and couldn't get you aagain. So I went this way and it turned out good. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=15857 I shouldn't have let her go

All my studs are producing great ,that is why they are my studs we are very strict on breeding ,but different peeps have their favs ,some like rattler a lot and some swear by little thunder and crazy eyes jr .

[Blueprint]

Thanks Wac for the reply. I'm definitely interested in getting some of your blood to add to the program. I've like your blood since seeing them hunt awhile ago. Looking forward ..... Blueprint

[Officially Retired]

My apologies to everyone for flipping out when I saw the condition of Coca-Rilla, but it just makes me sick to see a wonderful, healthy, athletic animal turned into a fat cow due to ignorant ownership.

I am trying to apologize here, but I am again getting furious the more I think of it ... so I am not sure, even now, if I can spit out a proper apology.

The idea that feeding an animal extra helpings of lousy food, and making her hog-fat, is a way to get "more and healthier pups" is so ignorant, so backward, that it really is insane.
Again, that is like believing that over-feeding your wife, until she too is hog-fat, will ensure "more children are born" and that those children will be "healthier" :rolleyes:

It is simply ignorant; it is simply malpractice.
There is no other way to describe this mindset.

Intelligent people, who actually have studied the subjects of nutrition and reproduction, make sure their wives are in shape, and that they're eating the best food possible, prior to conception and on into gestation.
And intelligent dog breeders do the same thing with their animals. There is nothing to debate; that's just the way it is.

Being fat doesn't produce "more eggs" in a female; the amount of eggs she produces is controlled biologically.
The only thing that can be affected in the mother is the health of her eggs (as well as herself), which is controlled by THE QUALITY of the food, not "the quantity" of substandard food.
More importantly, the ease of her pregnancy (and delivery!) is controlled by her being IN shape versus OUT OF shape, as having strong stomach muscles and optimal condition make it easier for her to push more effectively.
This is especially true with small bitches having to "push out" large pups.

In essence, Blueprint is doing everything wrong, and has nothing to say but, "It is what it is" ... and "6 of 1, half-dozen of the other" ... as a response. Just mindless prattle as a defense mechanism for his malpractice.
Oh, and he says "he respects me" ... after flagrantly disregarding every piece of advice he's ever received ... and following what other no-names do instead (his "peers" as he says).
I am sorry, but I can't take and digest pure bullship like that very well.

I showed my respect to Hollingsworth's advice on how to breed dogs, by following his basic principles, of doubling-up on the key dogs, from all-game litters, and I profited immensely by doing so.
I showed my respect by taking the time to write a book about his breedings, pointing out what he was doing, as A BLUEPRINT FOR SUCCESS, and those others who have imitated what he did have profited also.
That, to me, is "respect" ... as opposed to disregarding everything the old man told me.

Ultimately, I find it ironic, Blueprint, that you call yourself "Blueprint," when you can't even follow the very Blueprints of Success you're given as to the proper way to feed, keep, and breed dogs.
Very ironic indeed. Someday when you stop repeating vapid bromides, and actually pay attention, you will discover that you should have paid attention to the pearls you were being given.
But, unfortunately, only your dogs' health will ultimately be suffering from your malpractice.

Anyway, I can't be any nicer than this, given how angry I am.
But I have at least taken out the posts where I am flat cussing this guy out (as well as re-worded others).
I shouldn't have done gotten so vulgar, so I apologize for not better controlling my outrage.

But my outrage is still my outrage ...
I will never feel anything but outrage every time I see a dog that looked fabulous in my care ... RUINED in someone else's.

I put too much into these dogs to "feel detached" when I see them mismanaged and done wrong.
Especially when the person has "the right way" sitting in front of his face, but just chooses the lazy way.

So maybe I will try to learn some diplomacy, Blueprint ... while you might try studying-up on the correct principles of canine nutrition and reproduction.

BOTTOM LINE: overfeeding your bitches ... and turning your athletes into cows ... isn't "good care" ... it's malpractice.

Jack

[Pit Bull Committed]

:appl::appl:

[swampdawg]

Wolves..however... The reference to humans coming from monkeys is stupid. We share a common ancestor...we don't come from monkeys.. a few million years ago.. Yes.we were indeed one hominid..as evolution happened... One branched off into monkeys...one into humans... And if you don't believe that...compare DNA.. chimps and us DNA is 96% identical

It was a joke,no need to get all philosophical.maybe bulldogs didnt evolve from wolves but were brought here from a diff.galaxy.Isnt that what Chico use to say about awesome buck or whatever his name was.

[evolutionkennels]

I can tell you this, nobody wont tell you that. The dogs we hunt with are slow ,weak,dumb ,no mouth .i. Fact our dogs are extremely fast on trail,and death on a pigs heel.
A lot of the RBJ dogs now have to many outs .same with a lot of other dogs ,and as far as all these smart fast tombstone bolio dogs only a few out there ,and I am not going on hear say ,and I will give that to evolution ,and Bullard .and they had RBJ in them ,well Bullard put RBJ in his after a few hunts .these are the only two that has traits I like .

Thanks sonny.. I love and appreciate both bloodlines. I believe it makes for the perfect product. But that's my opinion based on winning. Really are splitting hairs here. As I've said before.

[evolutionkennels]

It was a joke,no need to get all philosophical.maybe bulldogs didnt evolve from wolves but were brought here from a diff.galaxy.Isnt that what Chico use to say about awesome buck or whatever his name was.

Lmfao

[FrostyPaws]

Most of the kennels that won in the 90's and 2000's had redboy jocko in their pedigree..... Waccamaw, Southern kennels, Hardcore, Hell on Earth, Carolina kennels, Stone City kennels, undertaker kennels (Mrs. Leaky foundation bitch) Evolution Kennels, Tant, Mr Burns and cross road kennels....that's just a few it's a hell of a lot more with the offspring of those foundation dogs for those kennels... Just my two cents....you won't find a more highlighted working stock then those accomplishments of those kennels.....I can't speak on what happen before the 90's.... That's when I got my first journal...except for reading Stratton books ( hey I had to learn somewhere )

I know I'm a little late to this particular thread, but I had a giggle at this. No disrespect to the kennels listed

BUT, I have to agree with Jack.

Dogs from WCC MAULED the competition during the 90s with probably more Ch., Gr.Ch., ROMs, and winners than ANY kennel producing dogs at that time. What you won't find are any Redboy/Jocko dogs there. STP anyone? Bellon Club? I'm sure I could sit here and actually think of a TON more people that used zero of those dogs in their breeding program. I happen to like RBJ dogs, and I cut my teeth on those dogs in the 90s off and down from Voyles' Little John, whose parents came straight from Fletcher.

[AmericanDogMan]

I read that, went out ran three of my dogs on the mill just out of guilt. EWO

Me too! Jack made me want to body fat test my dog's; f*ck that them hounds is getting on the mill 3x's a week flirt 3x's a week whether in keep or not.

http://www.slipperybrick.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/body-fat-meter-for-dogs.jpg

http://www.slipperybrick.com/2007/06/dog-body-fat-meter/


The last two pics of some of my dog's are some 6 & 5 month old puppies respectively... Puppy fat...

All and all them f*ckers is still getting in better shape.

[Nextlevel]

I know I'm a little late to this particular thread, but I had a giggle at this. No disrespect to the kennels listed

BUT, I have to agree with Jack.

Dogs from WCC MAULED the competition during the 90s with probably more Ch., Gr.Ch., ROMs, and winners than ANY kennel producing dogs at that time. What you won't find are any Redboy/Jocko dogs there. STP anyone? Bellon Club? I'm sure I could sit here and actually think of a TON more people that used zero of those dogs in their breeding program. I happen to like RBJ dogs, and I cut my teeth on those dogs in the 90s off and down from Voyles' Little John, whose parents came straight from Fletcher.

You do realize that STP and Bellon Club both used redboy jocko bred hounds also right?

[Officially Retired]

You do realize that STP and Bellon Club both used redboy jocko bred hounds also right?

These guys USED a few RBJ dogs, true. A few.

But these dogs were NOT either their "most-often-used" ... nor their BEST ... and these dogs are also not what they KEPT and BRED :idea:

Jack

[waccamaw]

I would strongly disagree.but it is like coke and Pepsi,whatever your flavor is .is naturally gonna be the best.even though old SDJ reports clearly show RBJ in the lead in the 90's
.

[Officially Retired]

even though old SDJ reports clearly show RBJ in the lead in the 90's
.

Actually, that is not even remotely true either.

In fact, in the 90s, Fat Bill (in the editorial of his American Gamedog Times magazine) used to call the Journal "The Jeep/Buck" Journal ... not because RBJ dogs were in there the most ... but because Jeep/Buck (Crenshaw/STP) dogs were in there the most.

I actually think Jeep/Rascal and Eli dogs dominated ... and Boyles dogs were in there a bunch too ... and, of course, RBJ dogs were in there as well. (I mean, hey, it's a great line.)

But your statement "all the good dogs" come from this line is so false it would do everyone some good if you just retracted it :lol:

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

You do realize that STP and Bellon Club both used redboy jocko bred hounds also right?

I know STP used Revenge, Lukane, and maybe a few others here and there. But you won't find them using much of that blood throughout their entire career. The Bellon Club used THEIR own dogs for the most part, and if you search through their breeding program, there was ONE dog with RBJ that was used. Short of that, they used their own dogs for over 2 decades, so I wouldn't even venture to say that they, or STP, used those dogs with any regularity through the time period we're talking about.

[Nextlevel]

I know STP used Revenge, Lukane, and maybe a few others here and there. But you won't find them using much of that blood throughout their entire career. The Bellon Club used THEIR own dogs for the most part, and if you search through their breeding program, there was ONE dog with RBJ that was used. Short of that, they used their own dogs for over 2 decades, so I wouldn't even venture to say that they, or STP, used those dogs with any regularity through the time period we're talking about.

You got to love it.......and I quote (What you want find is any RBJ dogs there.....) when in fact both had major success with it......

[waccamaw]

Actually, that is not even remotely true either.

In fact, in the 90s, Fat Bill (in the editorial of his American Gamedog Times magazine) used to call the Journal "The Jeep/Buck" Journal ... not because RBJ dogs were in there the most ... but because Jeep/Buck (Crenshaw/STP) dogs were in there the most.

I actually think Jeep/Rascal and Eli dogs dominated ... and Boyles dogs were in there a bunch too ... and, of course, RBJ dogs were in there as well. (I mean, hey, it's a great line.)

But your statement "all the good dogs" come from this line is so false it would do everyone some good if you just retracted it :lol:

Jack
What fat bill was talking about ,jack Kelly and Crenshaw being best of friends ,not to mention who ever spent the most money in the mag with paid adds .i I never said that RBJ were the only good dogs

[Officially Retired]

You got to love it.......and I quote (What you want find is any RBJ dogs there.....) when in fact both had major success with it......

1. Want = desire; Won't = "will not" and is the word you're trying to use.

2. The statement was made by Wac that "all the good dogs" that are produced are RBJ in nature ... which is a flat-out fallacy.

3. The other statement made by Wac is that RBJ dogs are "the best" and "kill the most" dogs ... which is another flat-out fallacy.

4. I don't think Bellon Club used many RBJ dogs, mostly Eli and Crenshaw/Eli dogs ... and certainly their absolute BEST, KILLINGEST dogs didn't have a drop of RBJ blood in there (negating #3).

5. While STP did use several RBJ dogs ... he got rid of them afterward ... and he BRED mostly Boyles'-type dogs (aside from Buck) ... and his BEST dog, again, didn't have a drop of RBJ in there: it was Buck, the 1/2-brother to Hollingsworth's Lady In Red.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

What fat bill was talking about ,jack Kelly and Crenshaw being best of friends ,not to mention who ever spent the most money in the mag with paid adds .i I never said that RBJ were the only good dogs

You said exactly that. Here is what you said, at the top and bottom of Page 1:



It is a known fact that the redboy / jocko dogs have made more dogs dead game !!


No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.


Those are the statements that I, and other, knowledgeable dogmen are having trouble swallowing.

No one is suggesting RBJ dogs aren't good, some truly great.
No one is suggesting that it isn't an all-time great bloodline.

What is being disputed is 1) that this line has made MORE dogs "dead game" than any other (which I assume means killed more dogs than any other), and 2) that "all the good ones" are of this bloodline. They simply are not.

You have made two false statements IMO.

It's not the end of the world ... but it does provide a lot of room for debate :lol:

Jack

[Nextlevel]

1. Want = desire; Won't is the word you're trying to use.

2. The statement was made by Wac that "all the good dogs" that are produced are RBJ in nature ... which is a flat-out fallacy.

3. The other statement made by Wac is that RBJ dogs are "the best" and "kill the most" dogs ... which is another flat-out fallacy.

4. I don't think Bellon Club used many RBJ dogs, mostly Eli and Crenshaw/Eli dogs ... and certainly their absolute BEST, KILLINGEST dogs didn't have a drop of RBJ blood in there (negating #3).

5. While STP did use several RBJ dogs ... he got rid of them afterward ... and he BRED mostly Boyles'-type dogs (aside from Buck) ... and his BEST dog, again, didn't have a drop of RBJ in there: it was Buck, the 1/2-brother to Lady In Red.

Jack

It was a typo pointing out the misuse of the word won't or want, wouldn't change the fact that frosty paws stated that (neither=not one or the other) since we pulling out Webster had that blood...I didn't say it he did even if they used one dog they both had it and won with it. Who knows which dogs were the best STP had multiple champions with it and even a Gr Ch.....

[Officially Retired]

It was a typo pointing out the misuse of the word won't or want, wouldn't change the fact that frosty paws stated that (neither=not one or the other) since we pulling out Webster had that blood...I didn't say it he did even if they used one dog they both had it and won with it. Who knows which dogs were the best STP had multiple champions with it and even a Gr Ch.....

We know which dog was the best, because STP wrote an article in the Journal, when Gr Ch Buck died, directly stating Buck was the best dog they ever had out of all the great dogs that they showed.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

You got to love it.......and I quote (What you want find is any RBJ dogs there.....) when in fact both had major success with it......

Show me where Bellon Club had major success with RBJ dogs. I'm well aware of what I said, and I stand by what I said. Seeing as I knew part of the Bellon Club, and knowing what they used, you won't find them using RBJ dogs. Goofy was a dog they made a breeding with in their program. Once. No winners from the breeding. Go back and show me 5, hell 3, winning RBJ dogs that the Bellon Club used their ENTIRE time in dogs. Those are facts.

When people think of STP, the first thing they think of isn't RBJ dogs, though they did use them. That's because their greatest success, through their time, came with the Boyles type dogs.

Crenshaw didn't use RBJ dogs. Casino didn't use RBJ dogs. TVK didn't use RBJ dogs. BMW didn't use RBJ dogs. Fat Bill didn't use RBJ dogs.

The topic is centered around the best dogs being Redboy/Jocko or having that in them. And that is just complete nonsense. Some of the best dogs I've ever seen, or owned, had zero RBJ blood in it, and I'm a fan of those dogs.

Maybe your definition of major success and mine are different.

[Nextlevel]

Show me where Bellon Club had major success with RBJ dogs. I'm well aware of what I said, and I stand by what I said. Seeing as I knew part of the Bellon Club, and knowing what they used, you won't find them using RBJ dogs. Goofy was a dog they made a breeding with in their program. Once. No winners from the breeding. Go back and show me 5, hell 3, winning RBJ dogs that the Bellon Club used their ENTIRE time in dogs. Those are facts.

When people think of STP, the first thing they think of isn't RBJ dogs, though they did use them. That's because their greatest success, through their time, came with the Boyles type dogs.

Crenshaw didn't use RBJ dogs. Casino didn't use RBJ dogs. TVK didn't use RBJ dogs. BMW didn't use RBJ dogs. Fat Bill didn't use RBJ dogs.

The topic is centered around the best dogs being Redboy/Jocko or having that in them. And that is just complete nonsense. Some of the best dogs I've ever seen, or owned, had zero RBJ blood in it, and I'm a fan of those dogs.

Maybe your definition of major success and mine are different.

I guess Ch Sassy POR, CH Leonardo, CH Toro POR, CH TAG, Gr Ch lukane ROM, Bobby Lou POR, CH STP holly is not major success. My definition of major is having CHAMPIONS or GRCH ROM dogs if you have a different definition, then everyone on this site should be carrying your stock with me first in line..!!!!

But I will give you Bellon club..... But they still used it....you said none, nada, zilch, zero.....

[Nextlevel]

It was nice debating this topic gave a lot of members some down time by reading this subject... We all have our different flavor of hounds, picking one for the whole fraternity would be disrespectful and degrading.... Regardless of it's Bloodline of origin. Thank you Jack and Frosty Paws.... Wacc see you soon Big Unk....I'm not kennel blind I also run Toby, Booger dogs....

[Officially Retired]

I guess Ch Sassy POR, CH Leonardo, CH Toro POR, CH TAG, Gr Ch lukane ROM, Bobby Lou POR, CH STP holly is not major success. My definition of major is having CHAMPIONS or GRCH ROM dogs if you have a different definition, then everyone on this site should be carrying your stock with me first in line..!!!!

But I will give you Bellon club..... But they still used it....you said none, nada, zilch, zero....

You forgot the most important RBJ dog STP used ... Gr Ch John Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4842), lol

You got Frosty on STP, but yet he is RIGHT that STP concentrated on Buck and Boyles dogs in his breedings, which is where most of his produced wins come from. Also, his BEST male dog was Gr Ch Buck (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=346), a Bolio dog, and his BADDEST female was Ch Bad Rosemary (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10174), a Bolio/Eli/Hank bitch, and granddaughter to Buck, (not Yellow's sister Ch Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1671)).

Frosty also mentioned WCC and Bellon Club and I have to agree with him on that. You pointing out that the Bellon Club used "a" RBJ dog in their multi-decade career is a bit of a stretch on your part :rolleyes: Let's just face the fact that the Bellon Club did NOT use these dogs much at all, except an isolated instance or two. Frosty also said WCC, a hugely-successful kennel, didn't use this blood at all. Hell, for that matter, I have used RBJ dogs a tiny bit ... but to say that "my success" came from these dogs ... or that my BEST dogs had this blood ... would be a bit of a stretch too (although there have been some great dogs of this cross as well). But it sure isn't the direction I chose to breed mine ... I went the opposite direction, quite frankly.

Again, let me repeat THE POINT here until it sinks in: 1) NO ONE HAS SAID these dogs haven't been SUCCESSFUL! So you pointing out that these dogs "have succeeded" or "have been used" is a meaningless effort on your part. WE KNOW THAT!!! What we are arguing is the idea these dogs have DOMINATED AN ERA ... that they have produced THE KILLINGEST dogs EVER ... and the idea that ALL THE GOOD ONES are RBJ.

These RIDICULOUS ASSERTIONS are what is being argued here ... because they're FLAT OUT UNTRUE.



It was nice debating this topic gave a lot of members some down time by reading this subject... We all have our different flavor of hounds, picking one for the whole fraternity would be disrespectful and degrading.... Regardless of it's Bloodline of origin. Thank you Jack and Frosty Paws.... Wacc see you soon Big Unk....I'm not kennel blind I also run Toby, Booger dogs....

Right, exactly, and Waccamaw is the one who basically said everything "not RBJ" isn't good, and that RBJ dogs are the only dogs that are good, which is WHY this REALITY CHECK was necessary.

There are PLENTY of other lines that have snuffed RBJ dogs, that have produced as many OR MORE Champions, Grand Champions, ROMS, etc. as the RBJ line has. And there are PLENTY of HUGELY-SUCCESSFUL kennels who don't run the blood at all. Maybe not in SC where Wac is, but there are MANY kennels in Texas, the west coast, and basically everywhere but SC that have never fed A SINGLE RBJ dog ... and who have multiple winners, Champions, etc. to their credit.

That is the center of this debate ... NOT that RBJ dogs "aren't successful" ... because we all know that they ARE.

It's the idea that they're "the center of the universe" that is ridiculous. Because they get their asses handed to them too ... they get snuffed like anything else also ... they quit and jump as well ... and they are NO WHERE TO BE SEEN on any roster of "the winningest dogs of all time" :idea:

It IS an all-time great bloodline though, competitive with anything out there.

Jack

[waccamaw]

You forgot the most important RBJ dog STP used ... Gr Ch John Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4842), lol

You got Frosty on STP, but yet he is RIGHT that STP concentrated on Buck and Boyles dogs in his breedings, which is where most of his produced wins come from. Also, his BEST male dog was Gr Ch Buck (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=346), a Bolio dog, and his BADDEST female was Ch Bad Rosemary (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10174), a Bolio/Eli/Hank bitch, and granddaughter to Buck, (not Yellow's sister Ch Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1671)).

Frosty also mentioned WCC and Bellon Club and I have to agree with him on that. You pointing out that the Bellon Club used "a" RBJ dog in their multi-decade career is a bit of a stretch on your part :rolleyes: Let's just face the fact that the Bellon Club did NOT use these dogs much at all, except an isolated instance or two. Frosty also said WCC, a hugely-successful kennel, didn't use this blood at all. Hell, for that matter, I have used RBJ dogs a tiny bit ... but to say that "my success" came from these dogs ... or that my BEST dogs had this blood ... would be a bit of a stretch too (although there have been some great dogs of this cross as well). But it sure isn't the direction I chose to breed mine ... I went the opposite direction, quite frankly.

Again, let me repeat THE POINT here until it sinks in: 1) NO ONE HAS SAID these dogs haven't been SUCCESSFUL! So you pointing out that these dogs "have succeeded" or "have been used" is a meaningless effort on your part. WE KNOW THAT!!! What we are arguing is the idea these dogs have DOMINATED AN ERA ... that they have produced THE KILLINGEST dogs EVER ... and the idea that ALL THE GOOD ONES are RBJ.

These RIDICULOUS ASSERTIONS are what is being argued here ... because they're FLAT OUT UNTRUE.




Right, exactly, and Waccamaw is the one who basically said everything "not RBJ" isn't good, and that RBJ dogs are the only dogs that are good, which is WHY this REALITY CHECK was necessary.

There are PLENTY of other lines that have snuffed RBJ dogs, that have produced as many OR MORE Champions, Grand Champions, ROMS, etc. as the RBJ line has. And there are PLENTY of HUGELY-SUCCESSFUL kennels who don't run the blood at all. Maybe not in SC where Wac is, but there are MANY kennels in Texas, the west coast, and basically everywhere but SC that have never fed A SINGLE RBJ dog ... and who have multiple winners, Champions, etc. to their credit.

That is the center of this debate ... NOT that RBJ dogs "aren't successful" ... because we all know that they ARE.

It's the idea that they're "the center of the universe" that is ridiculous. Because they get their asses handed to them too ... they get snuffed like anything else also ... they quit and jump as well ... and they are NO WHERE TO BE SEEN on any roster of "the winningest dogs of all time" :idea:

It IS an all-time great bloodline though, competitive with anything out there.

Jack

I never said that. What I said RBJ made more dead game dogs !and that is a true statement.and you know it ,ha,ha.

[evolutionkennels]

I never said that. What I said RBJ made more dead game dogs !and that is a true statement.and you know it ,ha,ha.


I love both lines. What I don't like about the rbj dogs is their destructive nature. They get wound up and lose it .. fight the chain, the doghouse, RETARDS. flip side is they are too stupid to quit.. but hard keepers. As far as Bolio tombstone dogs.. detriment is finicky coat. Must eat grain free or raw.

[EWO]

I said dumb ol' Jocko Redboy dogs and another term was 'stupid game'. I hadn't heard that in a number of years. I can remember hearing those dogs are too stupid to quit.

With that said, Wacc, it was still a really cool statement. Accuracy or inaccuracy didn't matter much to me. EWO




I love both lines. What I don't like about the rbj dogs is their destructive nature. They get wound up and lose it .. fight the chain, the doghouse, RETARDS. flip side is they are too stupid to quit.. but hard keepers. As far as Bolio tombstone dogs.. detriment is finicky coat. Must eat grain free or raw.

[swampdawg]

Your all assuming every dog is bred the way his papers say,most bulldogs today come from some of the most dishonest dogmen in the game.Most dogmen of past days hung papers so in short we'll never know whats really behind our dogs today.

[waccamaw]

I would agree with that

[FrostyPaws]

I guess Ch Sassy POR, CH Leonardo, CH Toro POR, CH TAG, Gr Ch lukane ROM, Bobby Lou POR, CH STP holly is not major success. My definition of major is having CHAMPIONS or GRCH ROM dogs if you have a different definition, then everyone on this site should be carrying your stock with me first in line..!!!!

But I will give you Bellon club..... But they still used it....you said none, nada, zilch, zero.....

Bellon Club never matched a RBJ dog. Only bred to one that produced no winners. A few of the STP dogs you mentioned were mid 80s. Bobby Lou isn't a RBJ dog. Then you have dogs like Lukane and Leonardo they bought, used once, and sold.

[EWO]

This is a view I have had for a long time. When you breed two dogs from someone else that is all you really know. Then breeding from there gives you more. From there and so on. In time you will know what you have. Sell one puppy, farm one out, give one away and that 'not knowing' cycle starts all over again.

I know a few I trust completely. I know some I trust only as far as I could throw them. Some would get my wallet as I threw them. Like most endeavors it is a cross section of society. The dogs have a little bit of every one involved. It takes all kinds. EWO

[swampdawg]

Frosty paw how do u know Bellon club didnt have rbj in their bloodline.You cant make a statement based on reading peds of there dogs and I know you wasnt there for every breeding they made.This is a good example im trying to make.back in the 70s most people didnt reg.dogs at all,u bought a pup based on the performance of its parents.Dogmen bred good dog to good dog.There wasnt many dogmen that kept a family or line of dogs tight.

[evolutionkennels]

Bellon Club never matched a RBJ dog. Only bred to one that produced no winners. A few of the STP dogs you mentioned were mid 80s. Bobby Lou isn't a RBJ dog. Then you have dogs like Lukane and Leonardo they bought, used once, and sold.

Leonardo and lukane were in the new millenieum. And Stp used lukane in his breeding program but he couldn't turn down 20k. Stp loved Leonardo, but he died the day after he made champ. Twisted his guts

[Officially Retired]

Frosty paw how do u know Bellon club didnt have rbj in their bloodline.You cant make a statement based on reading peds of there dogs and I know you wasnt there for every breeding they made.This is a good example im trying to make.back in the 70s most people didnt reg.dogs at all,u bought a pup based on the performance of its parents.Dogmen bred good dog to good dog.There wasnt many dogmen that kept a family or line of dogs tight.

I believe he knew the members personally ... not to mention the fact that nearly all the dogs they matched (whose pedigrees were shown in the SDJ) were of the Eli/Crenshaw variety.

Again, people can't seem to differentiate between "used," "used once," and BEST.

Again, no one is saying these dogs haven't been good or "used" ... the dispute is that they've DOMINATED any era or killed THE MOST (produced the very baddest) dogs.

If we're just making jokes and playing games, to be "cool," that's one thing. But if we're actually making statements we belive in, then that's something else again.

In that case, it's always helpful to pay attention so you're not out in left field or in the strawman construction business.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I never said that. What I said RBJ made more dead game dogs !and that is a true statement.and you know it ,ha,ha.

Lmao, I directly quoted what you said :lol:

[swampdawg]

The reason I made the statement I did is because through the yrs I have had people breed to some of my rbj dogs yet never ask me to sign anything knowing these same people sale pups.Makes me wonder how many dogs peds.are wrong.I didnt mean any disrespect to frosty are anyone else,was just trying to make a point.

[waccamaw]

I believe he knew the members personally ... not to mention the fact that nearly all the dogs they matched (whose pedigrees were shown in the SDJ) were of the Eli/Crenshaw variety.

Again, people can't seem to differentiate between "used," "used once," and BEST.

Again, no one is saying these dogs haven't been good or "used" ... the dispute is that they've DOMINATED any era or killed THE MOST (produced the very baddest) dogs.

If we're just making jokes and playing games, to be "cool," that's one thing. But if we're actually making statements we belive in, then that's something else again.

In that case, it's always helpful to pay attention so you're not out in left field or in the strawman construction business.

Jack STP has always got dogs from different lines ,won a few with them then sold them,after a few wns .he has always done that.

[Officially Retired]

STP has always got dogs from different lines ,won a few with them then sold them,after a few wns .he has always done that.

Lmao, you just built a strawman to take focus off your original quote.

1) Re-read what I just wrote, that you just quoted. That STP "used" RBJ Has nothing to do with HIS BEST ... HIS KILLINGEST ... dogs were NOT RBJ (thereby negating your original claims).

2) STP's BEST dogs were Boyles and Bolio.

3) STP never sold his VERY BEST dog ... Buck ... who had no RBJ in him.

Again, re-read what I said above, that you quoted.
Re-Read your original quotes that I highlighted.

See if you can put it all together.

Jack

[waccamaw]

Lmao, you just built a strawman to take focus off your original quote.

1) Re-read what I just wrote, that you just quoted. That STP "used" RBJ Has nothing to do with HIS BEST ... HIS KILLINGEST ... dogs were NOT RBJ (thereby negating your original claims).

2) STP's BEST dogs were not RBJ ... they were Boyles and Bolio.

3) STP never sold his VERY BEST dog ... Buck ... who had no RBJ in him.

Again, re-read what I said above, that you quoted.
Re-Read your original quotes that I highlighted.

See if you can put it all together.

Jack

He might not have sold buck ,but he sold plenty more ,jack I know a lot more than you think I know about him ,remember. You knew buck beat jr ,when I said they never hunted .you said I was wrong ,then had to admit I was right ,I hate to tell you but I am right again .and it ain't no straw house (bubba )and jack I never said the buck dogs were trash just like any other line you got to get them from select breeders ,and there are more than one .but I even said I would have go with evolution or mr Bullard which no longer has them .now the reason I say those two is they both have redboy jocko in the mix but even better than hunt what they breed and to me that is a plus .not trying to hurt any feelings ,just my take on it .

[Officially Retired]

I admitted you were right when, in fact, you were right. But just because you were right "once" doesn't give you carte blanche on being right forever :lol:

In this case, you're wrong. You're also all over the place, trying to forget the two ridiculous statements you said that prompted all this.

So let us FORGET STP, to whom you're affixing yourself for some crazy reason, because he has nothing to do with THE POINT.

The point is this ... you made these two statements:




It is a known fact that the redboy / jocko dogs have made more dogs dead game !!


No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

These two statements are both WRONG ... and they can never be made "right" by changing the subject to STP or anything else.

The FACT is 1) RBJ dogs haven't won/killed or done anything "more than anyone else" ... and 2) all of the good ones are not RBJ.

I am not even going to get into #2 because it's so laughably ridiculous it doesn't deserve to be discussed, so let's stick to #1.

Please stick to the point. Not STP. Not Frosty. Not Buck. Not the fact STP "used" some RBJ dogs. None of that.

Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest bitches in the history of the game.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest males in the history of the game.

See how many are RBJ ... because, according to my understanding, MAYBE you could put Barracuda up there ... but he's a 55 lb slug really.
That is not a very competitive weight class. But let's give him his due because he won 9.

Other than at ONE dog, out of a total of 20 possible slots, tell me how many RBJ dogs are on your list? How many dogs killed 6, 7, 8, 9 dogs in a row?

Be real, be fair. Not 3, not 2, not a dog that killed one in a roll. I am talking about ALL TIME GREAT MULTI-KILLER / MULTI-WINNING DOGS.

Then compare that to the results of Eli/Carver(including Bolio), Jeep/Rascal, and other great crosses and tell me what you honestly come up with.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I admitted you were right when, in fact, you were right. But just because you were right "once" doesn't give you carte blanche on being right forever :lol:

In this case, you're wrong. You're also all over the place, trying to forget the two ridiculous statements you said that prompted all this.

So let us FORGET STP, to whom you're affixing yourself for some crazy reason, because he has nothing to do with THE POINT.

The point is this ... you made these two statements:




It is a known fact that the redboy / jocko dogs have made more dogs dead game !!


No, but these dogs on average have it all.smarts ,heart ,mouth ,and drive.ever noticed how all the good ones are redboy / jocko or have red boy / jocko in them.

These two statements are both WRONG ... and they can never be made "right" by changing the subject to STP or anything else.

The FACT is 1) RBJ dogs haven't won/killed or done anything "more than anyone else" ... and 2) all of the good ones are not RBJ.

I am not even going to get into #2 because it's so laughably ridiculous it doesn't deserve to be discussed, so let's stick to #1.

Please stick to the point. Not STP. Not Frosty. Not Buck. Not the fact STP "used" some RBJ dogs. None of that.

Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest bitches in the history of the game.
Make a list of the 10 winningest/killingest males in the history of the game.

See how many are RBJ ... because, according to my understanding, MAYBE you could put Barracuda up there ... but he's a 55 lb slug really.
That is not a very competitive weight class. But let's give him his due because he won 9.

Other than at ONE dog, out of a total of 20 possible slots, tell me how many RBJ dogs are on your list? How many dogs killed 6, 7, 8, 9 dogs in a row?

Be real, be fair. Not 3, not 2, not a dog that killed one in a roll. I am talking about ALL TIME GREAT MULTI-KILLER / MULTI-WINNING DOGS.

Then compare that to the results of Eli/Carver(including Bolio), Jeep/Rascal, and other great crosses and tell me what you honestly come up with.

Jack

I might be wrong ,but was I the one that brought stp in the post .?Jack I could name plenty of RBJ dogs .and for the legal record I am referring to hog hunting ( killings hogs ) and for the record how many of these so called historical matches have you witnessed with your own eyes ? Not through the grapevine..

[Officially Retired]

I might be wrong ,but was I the one that brought stp in the post .?

You "might be" wrong? That's a good start, Sonny :mrgreen:

No, you were the one who made the incorrect statements I have listed above.




Jack I could name plenty of RBJ dogs .and for the legal record I am referring to hog hunting ( killings hogs )

Again, I am not talking about "winners" of the RBJ line ... or even Grand Champions ... I am talking about the winningEST dogs IN HISTORY ... Grand Champion of Grand Champions ... and the only ONE I can think of is Barracuda. Other than that 1 dog ... I see mostly Eli/Carver dogs of some type.

Unless you can think of dogs other than Barracuda, where are they? Where are the RBJ dogs like Shady Lady (5x :37 total) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=616), Molly Bee (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117) (who killed Jocko's sister Ch Apple (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=424)), Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919), Tornado (10xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349), MelonHead (14xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27180), etc.

The only RBJ candidate I know of, who was a true killer that was in a real tough weight class, was Ken Allen's Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) ... but you know who he lost to? A Jeep/Rascal dog, Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990). Which goes back to Eli/Carver.

Again, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431) (3/4 RBJ) also lost to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952) ... and, again, just to drive home a point, so too did the RBJ dog Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) get beat by another Jeep/Rascal (Eli/Carver) dog in Gr Ch Da Beast (7xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065).

So I am not seeing the RBJ dogs on the very, very, tip-top of the "kill em all" heap ... I am seeing them GET KILLED more often than not in that elite setting ... and I am seeing some type of Eli/Carver cross doing the killing :idea:




and for the record how many of these so called historical matches have you witnessed with your own eyes ? Not through the grapevine..

Well, I haven't witnessed any of them, but neither have you, so that doesn't change THE FACTS of what I am saying.

What I have done is I have bred dogs that have won all over the world.
I have also bred TO various strains of dogs in experimental crosses, and rolled INTO various bloodlines, for over 20 years.
I have never seen one RBJ dog, or cross, that I thought was my absolute BEST dog ... nor seen any cross or pure dog of this line GET PASSED one of my best.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

Now I have seen some REALLY GOOD RBJ crosses, as I have said (and some really rank ones too). But, as with the historical record above, the absolute BEST crosses with my line (dogs that have killed 6-9 in a row, dogs that made the cover of magazines, dogs that have killed opponents with one bite behind the head on the brain stem, in less than :18, TWICE IN A ROW) have been some kind of ELI or CHINAMAN cross in there ... or been plain-old Poncho/Coca Cola dogs without any cross.

However, to be honest, I must concede a point and say that Carl Crews made a Poncho/Coca Cola/RBJ breeding (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_offspring.php?dog_id=1678&sex_id=2) that has more wins in it AS A LITTER (18 wins, 1 DG loss) than virtually any breeding I have ever heard of. And Angel Lajara (who conditioned Mayday's sister Ch Choice) says Gr Ch Dragon had everything ... but is he an "ALL TIME GREAT" dog? No.

But it *was* one helluva litter.

So let's just admit 3 things: 1) the winningest dogs in the history of the game are not RBJ ... 2) that RBJ dogs don't make up ANYWHERE NEAR "all the good dogs" out there ... but that 3) there have been some really good, some truly great, dogs of this bloodline ... and that it is certainly competitive with anything out there.

Jack

[waccamaw]

You "might be" wrong? That's a good start, Sonny :mrgreen:

No, you were the one who made the incorrect statements I have listed above.





Again, I am not talking about "winners" of the RBJ line ... or even Grand Champions ... I am talking about the winningEST dogs IN HISTORY ... Grand Champion of Grand Champions ... and the only ONE I can think of is Barracuda. Other than that 1 dog ... I see mostly Eli/Carver dogs of some type.

Unless you can think of dogs other than Barracuda, where are they? Where are the RBJ dogs like Shady Lady (5x :37 total) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=616), Molly Bee (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117) (who killed Jocko's sister Ch Apple (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=424)), Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919), Tornado (10xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349), MelonHead (14xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27180), etc.

The only RBJ candidate I know of, who was a true killer that was in a real tough weight class, was Ken Allen's Gr Ch Zinc (6xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21083) ... but you know who he lost to? A Jeep/Rascal dog, Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson (5x BIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990). Which goes back to Eli/Carver.

Again, Ch Nico (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=431) (3/4 RBJ) also lost to the Eli/Carver Gr Ch IBM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9952) ... and, again, just to drive home a point, so too did the RBJ dog Ch Glock (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=22890) get beat by another Jeep/Rascal (Eli/Carver) dog in Gr Ch Da Beast (7xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065).

So I am not seeing the RBJ dogs on the very, very, tip-top of the "kill em all" heap ... I am seeing them GET KILLED more often than not in that elite setting ... and I am seeing some type of Eli/Carver cross doing the killing :idea:





Well, I haven't witnessed any of them, but neither have you, so that doesn't change THE FACTS of what I am saying.

What I have done is I have bred dogs that have won all over the world.
I have also bred TO various strains of dogs in experimental crosses, and rolled INTO various bloodlines, for over 20 years.
I have never seen one RBJ dog, or cross, that I thought was my absolute BEST dog ... nor seen any cross or pure dog of this line GET PASSED one of my best.
Quite the opposite, in fact.

Now I have seen some REALLY GOOD RBJ crosses, as I have said (and some really rank ones too). But, as with the historical record above, the absolute BEST crosses with my line (dogs that have killed 6-9 in a row, dogs that made the cover of magazines, dogs that have killed opponents with one bite behind the head on the brain stem, in less than :18, TWICE IN A ROW) have been some kind of ELI or CHINAMAN cross in there ... or been plain-old Poncho/Coca Cola dogs without any cross.

However, to be honest, I must concede a point and say that Carl Crews made a Poncho/Coca Cola/RBJ breeding (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_offspring.php?dog_id=1678&sex_id=2) that has more wins in it AS A LITTER (18 wins, 1 DG loss) than virtually any breeding I have ever heard of. And Angel Lajara (who conditioned Mayday's sister Ch Choice) says Gr Ch Dragon had everything ... but is he an "ALL TIME GREAT" dog? No.

But it *was* one helluva litter.

So let's just admit 3 things: 1) the winningest dogs in the history of the game are not RBJ ... 2) that RBJ dogs don't make up ANYWHERE NEAR "all the good dogs" out there ... but that 3) there have been some really good, some truly great, dogs of this bloodline ... and that it is certainly competitive with anything out there.

Jack

First of all ,you just don't know what I have seen and I only say what I know for sure ! Second Carl crews never was a dog man just a crook peddler riding on tants shirt tail .and 3 rd I am not going to say I have seen a dog match in the past present or future ,only hog hunting for me guy.but I will say this only know what you see !

[waccamaw]

Jack ,did poncho win or lose ? Remeber the female David got from you ,what was her name ?pretty dog had a lot of white on her ,he gave her back to you .

[Officially Retired]

First of all ,you just don't know what I have seen and I only say what I know for sure ! Second Carl crews never was a dog man just a crook peddler riding on tants shirt tail .and 3 rd I am not going to say I have seen a dog match in the past present or future ,only hog hunting for me guy.but I will say this only know what you see !

That's true. I don't know what you've seen.

Second, you again fail to stay on point. Now you're having a fit over Carl Crews. I happen to like Carl Crews.

But what I DON'T see you doing is 1) showing me the winningest/baddest dogs in the world with RBJ in their pedigrees ... or 2) admit that you were WRONG ... and that MOST of the winningEST/baddEST dogs in the world do not have RBJ in their pedigrees.

Jack

PS: In addition to what I have listed above, here is another TOP RBJ dog that lost to another Eli/Carver dog ... when Ch Noriega (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38292) was defeated by Gr Ch Ajax (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38291). (I don't have Ajax' full ped, but I believe he was pretty much 100% Carver/Eli.)

[Officially Retired]

Jack ,did poncho win or lose ? Remeber the female David got from you ,what was her name ?pretty dog had a lot of white on her ,he gave her back to you .

I am not saying Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2) was one of the baddest dogs ever. He won and he lost. But the dog he lost to was another Eli/Carver dog in Ch Leonard (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7635) :lol:

Oh, and Poncho outproduced every dog you have ... as well as Ch Leonard ... 59-11 from 15 breedings. ;)

The dog David TRADED back to me, to get that son of Bud, was Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178). And I was very glad to get her back.

If you want to try to make this personal, I can go over a complete history of how my crosses with your stuff did ... and how other crosses and my pure stuff did by comparison.

Jack

[waccamaw]

I will give credit to the ones you had from big John the hog killer I never seen ,by the way was RBJ ,was that screamer and big John anyway that was a good litter .nice hog dogs .but anyway I am not kennel blind and do know there are other good dogs out there from all lines depends on the breeder.

[Officially Retired]

I will give credit to the ones you had from big John the hog killer I never seen ,by the way was RBJ ,was that screamer and big John anyway that was a good litter .nice hog dogs .but anyway I am not kennel blind and do know there are other good dogs out there from all lines depends on the breeder.

You seen one of the better ones ... Little Jack 2xW (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6228)

[waccamaw]

I am not saying Poncho was one of the baddest dogs ever. But the dog he lost to was another Eli/Carver dog :lol:

Oh, and Poncho outproduced every dog you have ;)

The dog David TRADED back to me, to get that son of Bud, was Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178). And I was very glad to get her back.

If you want to try to make this personal, I can go over a complete history of how my crosses with your stuff did ... and how other crosses and my pure stuff did by comparison.

Jack
You comparison is no good you are clearly kennel blind,and I seriously doubt yours and very few others have out produced ours ,and magazines don't mean anything .cover dogs don't mean anything .real production is what means something.it is like this you got let's say 5000 pups out and 1000 make ch the other man 100pups out there and 50 make ch so who is the better producer ,Ray Charles said he could see.
Jack I don't want you to think I am coming at you cause I am not ,sometimes you take things personel.

[waccamaw]

You seen one of the better ones ... Little Jack 2xW (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6228)
I seen a few females as well think they might have been off our yellow John. Or bud they ended up in nc.a lot to do with a pup turning into a good hunter is a good owner.

[Wsk]

The Top Producers of the Top Bloodlines
Reprinted by E.L. Mullins with permission from Carl Mims & Jack Kelly from the Origional Sporting Dog Journal November-December 1986 Slight editing & Photographs included by E.L. Mullins

I keep records of the top match dogs of today. I can tell you what lines are winning the most and which dogs are winning and producing the best dogs of that bloodline. My life is raising these dogs and trying to get the best yard in the world. Every time I get the Journal, I would get out my two big boxes of pedigrees and get to work. I go through the Show News and if they have the breeding of the dogs matched, I make a pedigree on that dog and put the account of the match on the back of the pedigree and put it in the file of his owner. Then I go to his Sires' pedigree and put the account of the match on the back of his pedigree and I do the same on the back of his Dams' pedigree. This way I know how many winners this dog has produced and how many loses. It really would help me when you all send in your matches that you tell their breeding. I have been doing this since 1977. When I see other dogmen, I ask them what Stud Dog would they breed to, if they could, and you won't believe the dogs they choose - great match dogs, but sorry producers, according to their records in the Journal. One man told me about a dog that has been advertised in every Journal and other magazines, for the last few years, and I ask him WHY? He said he was a great and very famous Stud Dog, according to what has been put in the ads in the magazines and what people have wrote about him. I said, "But, what has he produced?" According to the Journal, this dog that everyone says is such a great Stud Dog, has produced one (1) dog that won in 5 hours and 33 minutes and a dog that won one and quit his second time out in 40 minutes. These are the only ones that have been put in the Journal, unless I have overlooked some. If people are claiming that he is such a great producer, why don't they send in his matches? I know he is game and I like his bloodline, but I wouldn't spend my money to breed to him. You want a dog who has already produced a good percentage of match material, so when you decide to send a gyp to breed, to get the best of a certain bloodline, pick the top producer of that bloodline - It's your money and your time and work at stake. If you are going for the "Tater" - "Faith" line, which this dog is from, I would go for Patrick's "Bull Boy Bob". He will be 10 years old in December. He has sired 7 dogs that have been matched, in the Journal, and only one of them lost, picked up in 54 minutes. I know he has sired many more winners, they just haven't been reported. He has produced two Champions and two 2x winners. His dam,, "Tuffy", was directly off of "Tater" and "Faith". The top four winning lines today are based mainly on these great dogs: Wood's "Snooty" (ROM), Patrick's "Tombstone" (ROM),* "Indian Bolio" (ROM), Crenshaw's (Irish Jerry's) Champion "Honeybunch" (ROM), and Bass' "Tramp Red Boy", who could and should have been on the list of Register of Merit, but isn't A lot of the Stud Dogs or females are usually dead or not getting pups any more by the time their offspring start really winning. Here is a small list, I made up, of the top dogs from certain lines and the top producers from that line. Some of the dogs I suggest to breed to are ones from a line of winning dogs, but he or she hasn't been bred much, so couldn't have a list of winning offspring.

1.) "Tombstone" (ROM)/* "Indian Bolio" (ROM).(Sired 2 Champions), Patrick's "Boni Maroni", Patrick's "Blitz" (produced 2 Champions), Patrick's "Red Lady" (produced 2 Champions), Boyles' "Dirty Mary" (produced 9 dogs matched and in the Journal - 11 wins--3 loses & 1 draw), Ch. "Bobby Jr."(produced 7 dogs matched and in the Journal - 7 wins --4 loses & 1 draw. Two of these dogs that lost won Gamest in Show trophies.) Ch. "Tonka" (produced 5 Champions, only one in the Journal and many winners.) A good stud prospect is S.T.P.'s Grand Champion "Buck", a 6x winner, from a line of game dogs and dogs that have produced a lot of winners.

2.) Bass' "Red Boy" / Ch. "Yellow John" (ROM) * like: Ch. "Toro" (won 4 lost 1), S.T.P.'s GrCh. "John Boy" (won 5), Super Gnat's "Boots" (won over a Champion in 4 hours and 52 minutes.), Melvin G.'s "J.R." (won 5), S.T.P.'s "Sassy" (won 2), and GrCh. "Yellow John" (won 6). If everyone's matches were reported, Ch. "Yellow John" would be the top R.O.M. sire. "Yellow John" was sired by "Red Boy" bred back to his daughter, twice. GrCh. "Yellow" is the sire of S.T.P.'s Ch. "Rodney". If you could breed to "Yellow", he'd be a good prospect. If you can breed to a good, direct son of "Red Boy", do so.

3.) bred a lot, so there are a lot of Champions and winners. Some of the greats by her are: Ch. "Jeep" (ROM), GrCh. "Snake", Ch. "Holly", GrCh."Weehut" and Ch. "Charlie". "Jeep" has been bred a lot and has sired 5 Champions. Dog off of "Jeep" has this recorded in the Journal. 33 wins, 12 loses -- 7 quit and 1 draw. If anyone plans to get something directly off "Jeep", better hurry up, he's not getting any younger. Rebel Kennels' Ch. "Rebel" has produced pretty good, 11 wins and 2 loses. After "Jeep" is gone, "Turtle" would be the best prospect for a sire. GrCh. "Snake" has sired only one 4x winner and 2 dogs that quit. He has produced poorly.

4.) "Snooty" (ROM) *"Snooty"s record had been reported, in the Journal, he would have 8 R.O. M. points, tied with "Yellow John", if all his were reported. "Snooty" a 2x winner sired: Ch. "Thor" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Sugar" (won 4 - now in Holland), Ch. "Red Lady" (won 3, lost one-quit), "Spike" (won 5), "Red Danger" (won 4 lost 1), Ch. "Napoleon" (won 3), and "Snooty Son" (won 3 or 4, none of his were reported). There aren’t many direct sons or daughters off "Snooty" left to breed to. The dog registered as Hargrove's"Spanky" (ROM) produced 3 Champions, but he is now deceased. Some good prospects would be "Snooty Son" - owned by Mark Bristol. His dam is 1/2 Tudor. Mims' "Mose"- game tested, bred back to his daughter"Moxie" a 2x winner, dead game. "Mose" is the last of his litter and is now in California.* His brother sired 2 Champions before his death."Spike", a 5 time winner has only produced two 1x winners, in the These are the top producing lines of today. It's your choice. Most of the top sires are gone before you can see who are the top producers. You just have to bred to one who has a good percentage of game littermates and is a good one himself. Breed to a line with a good percentage of wins.

TIP!! GrCh. "Lucky Strike". This line use to be one of the tops years ago, but has gone down in their percentage of wins since the great breeder Bob Hemphill died.* GrCh. "Lucky Strike" is a great dog, but I know the win - loss record on his line today and they hardly ever win, in the Journal. You'll take a chance of getting any match material if you breed to him. If you have a good line of stock, but need an outcross, study the record of that dog you want to breed to, before you do it. Don't breed to him just because he's the greatest match dog in the country, but because he comes from a line of a good percentage of great dogs.

Here's an old article that in a way is fitting for this interesting thread.

[Officially Retired]

You comparison is no good you are clearly kennel blind,and I seriously doubt yours and very few others have out produced ours ,and magazines don't mean anything . real production is what means something.

I am not kennel blind.

I am not the one who said my general bloodline produces the baddest dogs, or kills the most dogs, that was you :)

Poncho produced 59 wins, 11 losses. That has nothing to do with magazines; many of them were just wins/losses out of 1 stud dog who was bred 15x.
That is real production

Very few dogs can match that as a producer, including 99% of my own.

Regarding the subject of "baddest dogs," I think Eli dogs (and Eli crosses) kill the most, quite frankly. And I don't particularly like them :lol:
The reason I don't like them is I don't think they have high % of gameness, but I do respect their accomplishments and give them the credit they deserve.

Quite frankly, I like RBJ dogs better, as a whole, because I think they're more dependable % wise ...




it is like this you got let's say 5000 pups out and 1000 make ch the other man 100pups out there and 50 make ch so who is the better producer ,Ray Charles said he could see.


I agree with you.




Jack I don't want you to think I am coming at you cause I am not ,sometimes you take things personel.

Okay, maybe I was.

But I have never said my dogs "kill the most" ... or produce "the baddest" dogs ... or that "all the good dogs" have my blood in it.

I just say my dogs win in as high (or higher) % as anything out there because, WHEN SHOWN, they win 8.7x out of 10 (87%), and they do. Don't think any other line can pass that.
Now, the wins may not be impressive ... my dogs may have to come off the bottom and out-scratch ... or maybe they're in control the whole time ... whatever they have to do ... they win more a lot than they lose.
But I certainly don't think they're "the baddest," "the winningest," or that I have a lock on winning.

But (as you mentioned above) I will compare MY PERCENTAGES with anyone who has ever bred dogs at any time.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I seen a few females as well think they might have been off our yellow John. Or bud they ended up in nc.a lot to do with a pup turning into a good hunter is a good owner.

I forgot about that breeding!

I remember one in particular would have been a Champion, but for a freak accident when he broke his jaw in the first :10.

Also wish we would have got pups out of Hitler and Missy. If I remember right, Hitler was DG.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Jasper (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38293) was his name :)

[waccamaw]

Jasper (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38293) was his name :)
There was another that would take out the hogs eyes .

[waccamaw]

For the record we only breed for hog hunting ,just in case anybody gets the wrong idea

[Black Hand]

Most of the redboy n rbj dogs I've had and seen just weren't very smart. That's my only knock on them though. Although there was a son of southern kennels bambam that had it all. But I believe there was some heavy bolio on the bottom side.

[waccamaw]

Most of the redboy n rbj dogs I've had and seen just weren't very smart. That's my only knock on them though. Although there was a son of southern kennels bambam that had it all. But I believe there was some heavy bolio on the bottom side.

That is the difference in the real old school red boy / jocko (waccamaw dogs)! And the watered down version. Others try to push .

[swampdawg]

I think u guys r comparing apples to oranges here.I think every line is an independant bloodline.I wouldnt compare a Burns bred rbj to a Wacc.bred rbj dog,both very differnt animals and I think I can say the same about bolio dogs,Jeep dogs,Eli dogs and the list can keep going on an on.Feed what makes you happy and youll enjoy life alot more.I saw a bumpet sticker a few wks back that said"Dogs make mankind".They sure keep me kind.

[Officially Retired]

There was another that would take out the hogs eyes .

That's nasty.

The face/muzzle is the only place Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178) wanted ... and her sister Razor (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7687) was the same way.

Razor produced Ch Pierce (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7688), who I know for sure was also a devastating face dog, and who I believe also took out the eyes ...

You should put up some photos of your dogs, as it would be nice to see Yellow John (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7913) and the rest of the gang up there.

I saw that someone put your foundation bitch, Saber (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2750), in the system ... but it would be cool if you would get up off yer @$$ and put more and other photos of your dogs up there :mrgreen:

Have a good weekend :-bd

Jack

[waccamaw]

That's nasty.

The face/muzzle is the only place Sassy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178) wanted ... and her sister Razor (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7687) was the same way.

Razor produced Ch Pierce (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7688), who I know for sure was also a devastating face dog, and who I believe also took out the eyes ...

You should put up some photos of your dogs, as it would be nice to see Yellow John (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7913) and the rest of the gang up there.

I saw that someone put your foundation bitch, Saber (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2750), in the system ... but it would be cool if you would get up off yer @$$ and put more and other photos of your dogs up there :mrgreen:

Have a good weekend :-bd

Jack

Very rarely did we take pic of a dog ,in fact you were the first to take one of big John.

[Officially Retired]

That is too bad. I thought you had some photos in storage. Would be nice to hang onto for posterity ...

Think I might have some more of Big John too than what's up there.

[EWO]

Agree with this. I think the dogs change when different people breed them. Same family, but it only takes one, maybe two breedings and the resulting dogs con be completely different. Any number of things can be factored in or left out to start the change. A guy could pass up the best performer and producer if the dog gets to 50lbs and he only likes smaller dogs. Silly. But that is all it takes to make changes. EWO




I think u guys r comparing apples to oranges here.I think every line is an independant bloodline.I wouldnt compare a Burns bred rbj to a Wacc.bred rbj dog,both very differnt animals and I think I can say the same about bolio dogs,Jeep dogs,Eli dogs and the list can keep going on an on.Feed what makes you happy and youll enjoy life alot more.I saw a bumpet sticker a few wks back that said"Dogs make mankind".They sure keep me kind.

[Officially Retired]

Agree with this. I think the dogs change when different people breed them. Same family, but it only takes one, maybe two breedings and the resulting dogs con be completely different. Any number of things can be factored in or left out to start the change. A guy could pass up the best performer and producer if the dog gets to 50lbs and he only likes smaller dogs. Silly. But that is all it takes to make changes. EWO

Yes and no.

Yes, things absolutely change when a new owner starts selecting for his own individual preferences (competent or incompetent) within a line ...

But no, if they still go back to RBJ (or Jeep, or whatever), they're still RBJ (Jeep, etc.) dogs.

Jack

PS: That is also the SIGN of competence is when a breeder is focusing on NEW DOGS within the line. For example, if I still am trying to sell my dogs as "Bolio dogs" then I am an imbecile who apparently hasn't been able to breed MY OWN good dogs within the strain ... I am still looking back over my shoulder 40 years ago for a dead dog in order to have something good to say about what I have now. By contrast, even if my dogs have Bolio "in them" ... I should be able to point to dogs NOW, on my yard TODAY, that are defining themselves and worth talking about (e.g., Silverback dogs or some live, or only recently-dead, dog that I am focusing on NOW). So to me, when someone can only say my dogs are "Jeep dog" (rather than, say, SlimShady dogs--dogs that are good now), I automatically know that I am looking at a guy who's not feeding/breeding anything worth talking about on his own yard.

[swampdawg]

Jack I have to disagree with u about rbj dogs being the same because they go back to the same dogs.Some r bred for show some are not.If there all the same then I can use the same remark that All bulldogs are the same because they all share the same ancestors from the first dogs brought to America.

[Officially Retired]

I actually already addressed what you said ... and agree

[waccamaw]

That is too bad. I thought you had some photos in storage. Would be nice to hang onto for posterity ...

Think I might have some more of Big John too than what's up there.
I do have a few

[FrostyPaws]

Frosty paw how do u know Bellon club didnt have rbj in their bloodline.You cant make a statement based on reading peds of there dogs and I know you wasnt there for every breeding they made.This is a good example im trying to make.back in the 70s most people didnt reg.dogs at all,u bought a pup based on the performance of its parents.Dogmen bred good dog to good dog.There wasnt many dogmen that kept a family or line of dogs tight.

As Jack said, I knew some of the members. My partner knew some of the members. They bred one of their champion bitches to one of our stud males years ago. I never bought a pup from them. I didn't make a statement based on reading any pedigrees, Swamp. I made it based on personal knowledge.

[EWO]

Agree with it going back to the actual blood upon the sale/changing of hands. But there are changes there as well, and although it is still Jeep or Red Boy or Poncho, the original breeder/creator/perpetrator of the line is not making the calls. Back to this topic, I doubt all the RBJ dogs made the most dead game dogs (although it is a way cool statement, would have been a great advertising line in the journal way back when....) but a certain group/strand made their share. When that certain group/strand/strain were sold they were still RBJ dogs just not the same RBJ dogs.

Just the other day there was a kid on here that was beaten up and had his lunch money taken because he posted a photograph of a dog that did not look the way that the creator/perpetrator/breeder intended. That dogs blood line did not change because she was fat. Still the same pedigree/same family/same strain. The only difference is two entirely different ideas of what a brood dog should look like. Lets say we were not breeding this particular dog and the new owner and previous owner had differing ideas on calling weights or means of conditioning that same dog is the same dog but not the same dog....if that makes sense.

Great series of posts. I did not have a proverbial 'dog in the fight' but it has been a good read. EWO





Yes and no.

Yes, things absolutely change when a new owner starts selecting for his own individual preferences (competent or incompetent) within a line ...

But no, if they still go back to RBJ (or Jeep, or whatever), they're still RBJ (Jeep, etc.) dogs.

Jack

PS: That is also the SIGN of competence is when a breeder is focusing on NEW DOGS within the line. For example, if I still am trying to sell my dogs as "Bolio dogs" then I am an imbecile who apparently hasn't been able to breed MY OWN good dogs within the strain ... I am still looking back over my shoulder 40 years ago for a dead dog in order to have something good to say about what I have now. By contrast, even if my dogs have Bolio "in them" ... I should be able to point to dogs NOW, on my yard TODAY, that are defining themselves and worth talking about (e.g., Silverback dogs or some live, or only recently-dead, dog that I am focusing on NOW). So to me, when someone can only say my dogs are "Jeep dog" (rather than, say, SlimShady dogs--dogs that are good now), I automatically know that I am looking at a guy who's not feeding/breeding anything worth talking about on his own yard.

[waccamaw]

Have you ever heard anybody say I need some bolio for gamnes ,? No ,people have always said I need some redboy for heart (gameness ) and jocko for the mouth.

[Officially Retired]

Have you ever heard anybody say I need some bolio for gamnes ,? No ,people have always said I need some redboy for heart (gameness ) and jocko for the mouth.

Yes, Tom Garner used to place on his ads directly, that he added Bolio because "they could dance all night."

Sonny, you're just in Redboy country, and all your neighbors have that stuff.

I have lived in California, Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida (that's coast-to-coast) ... and have "done dogs" with top dogmen from all these areas.
You might not believe this, but Redboy is not the only answer for gameness. It is not even the best answer. In fact, in some areas of N. Cali, no one even uses it.

I urge you to go back to the first comments I've made (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs/page3) about the Redboy stock, as to what Robinson said about the Hollingsworth dogs being gamer than his Redboy dogs, and how they've steadfastly quit to my dogs, 11 out of 12 times. And the two times the pure Hollingsworth dogs got matched into RBJ dogs, both matches went over 2 hrs, and in both cases the pure RBJ dogs quit to the pure Hollingsworth.

The truth is MORE people add Bolio dogs for gameness ... because Bolio dogs (the RIGHT Bolio dogs) add gameness AND speed AND brains to dogs ... not just "stupid gameness" ... which is why they've been added to Eli/Chinaman and many other dogs.

Again, you're just in Redboy country, Sonny. The world is A LOT bigger place than just South Carolina :lol:

All over the Wild West, Bolio dogs have been kicking ass and winning more matches than Red Boy dogs ... from California, to Oklahoma, to Texas, Louisianna, etc. ... there's a lot more Bolio crosses out there than Redboy ... not to mention most of the best Redboy crosses have Buck/Hollingsworth dogs in them ;)

Jack

[waccamaw]

Yes, Tom Garner used to place on his ads directly, that he added Bolio because "they could dance all night."

Sonny, you're just in Redboy country, and all your neighbors have that stuff.

I have lived in California, Tennessee, Georgia, and Florida (that's coast-to-coast) ... and have "done dogs" with top dogmen from all these areas.
You might not believe this, but Redboy is not the only answer for gameness. It is not even the best answer. In fact, in some areas of N. Cali, no one even uses it.

I urge you to go back to the first comments I've made (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?2756-redboy-dogs/page3) about the Redboy stock, as to what Robinson said about the Hollingsworth dogs being gamer than his Redboy dogs, and how they've steadfastly quit to my dogs, 11 out of 12 times. And the two times the pure Hollingsworth dogs got matched into RBJ dogs, both matches went over 2 hrs, and in both cases the pure RBJ dogs quit to the pure Hollingsworth.

The truth is MORE people add Bolio dogs for gameness ... because Bolio dogs (the RIGHT Bolio dogs) add gameness AND speed AND brains to dogs ... not just "stupid gameness" ... which is why they've been added to Eli/Chinaman and many other dogs.

Again, you're just in Redboy country, Sonny. The world is A LOT bigger place than just South Carolina :lol:

All over the Wild West, Bolio dogs have been kicking ass and winning more matches than Red Boy dogs ... from California, to Oklahoma, to Texas, Louisianna, etc. ... there's a lot more Bolio crosses out there than Redboy ... not to mention most of the best Redboy crosses have Buck/Hollingsworth dogs in them ;)

Jack

Dance all night is not the same as gameness .jack I have hunted in more states than sc ,nd hunted brother .and I can ride 30 min and be in (Buck) country .i have made many of them run out of the woods when on a big boar .even hunted with a lot of fella from the mountains of ga .that hunted with jeep ,jeep rascal .jrrbj,heck it made no diff.it all ended the same most of the time ,the only real diff I see is the men behind each group of hunters .by the way jack I have been on the west coast ,San Diego ,and Portland or.beaverton or ,and tiger or ..we even used to get fogs from nettleton miss.eli dogs at that .

[waccamaw]

Jack just because you say so doesn't mean it is so,I have had jeep dogs ,Eli dogs and just about everything else ,but none could hunt like a well bred RBJ dog.that is what works for me ,but everybody has their flavor of catch dogs .

[Officially Retired]

Dance all night is not the same as gameness .jack I have hunted in more states than sc ,nd hunted brother .and I can ride 30 min and be in (Buck) country .i have made many of them run out of the woods when on a big boar .even hunted with a lot of fella from the mountains of ga .that hunted with jeep ,jeep rascal .jrrbj,heck it made no diff.it all ended the same most of the time ,the only real diff I see is the men behind each group of hunters .by the way jack I have been on the west coast ,San Diego ,and Portland or.beaverton or ,and tiger or ..we even used to get fogs from nettleton miss.eli dogs at that .

Dance all night is better than stupid game :idea:

I know you've hunted in a few other states, but I've LIVED in CA for 35 years ... LIVED in TN for 7 years ... LIVED in FL for 7 years ... and seen "the flavors" of different states ... and they're not all Red Boy ... and not everyone looks to it for gameness.

Ability-wise, can you even name a single RBJ dog, that's won more than 6 fights, that doesn't have Buck or Hollingsworth blood in it?
I can name MULTIPLE 7, 8, and even three 9xWs with Bolio blood in there ... not to mention absolute truckloads of 5xWs and 6xWs.

As far as pure gameness goes, for quite a long time the longest bitch win in pit bull history was a pure Bolio bitch, Hobbs' Tuffy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1295). And even the current bitch from Big Apple has some in there.

Believe me, Bolio/Tombstone dogs are known for gameness (at least to anyone with any dog knowledge). And, like I said, not just stupid-gameness ... but gameness with brains ... and usually speed ... that keeps trying until they figure out a way to win, even if they're physically overmatched. That is FAR preferable to just a stupid dog that keeps trying to scratch.




Jack just because you say so doesn't mean it is so,I have had jeep dogs ,Eli dogs and just about everything else ,but none could hunt like a well bred RBJ dog.that is what works for me ,but everybody has their flavor of catch dogs .

Well, if you've had other dogs, great. Won't say otherwise.

As for all these other dogs you've beat, without names and pedigrees (like I put up there), it's hard to have a discussion.
But I am sure you're satisfied with what you have, as you've stayed with it for a long time, so credit to you for that. Very few people do that nowadays.

I have the same feeling. The truth is, both lines have been fabulous over the years.

Jack

[FrostyPaws]

I can't say I've ever heard anyone say they need Jocko for mouth personally. I've heard a ton of people say they need Redboy for gameness, but the dogs they breed to aren't noted for anything except seeing about 20 minutes and being Redboy bred. They've not been anywhere near Gameness Avenue. Whatever kind of gameness Redboy dogs were noted for originally has steadfastly declined due to the popularity of the line and indiscriminate breeding, but I've said that already.

I've seen pockets of game Eli dogs. It's like anything else. You can't simply breed to Redboy dogs and get game dogs anymore than you can breed to Bolio dogs and get world class athletes. If it were that easy, someone would breed Bolio/Redboy dogs and take over the world!

[waccamaw]

Well I don't know anything about matching dogs ,I only hog hunt with mine.

[Officially Retired]

I've seen pockets of game Eli dogs. It's like anything else. You can't simply breed to Redboy dogs and get game dogs anymore than you can breed to Bolio dogs and get world class athletes. If it were that easy, someone would breed Bolio/Redboy dogs and take over the world!

That's true.

I think most Bolio dogs are curs nowadays, that have lost the original talent the line was known for also.

I don't think Patrick had any "standards" for the last 25+ years, as dogs directly from Pat's yard into mine are 0-5 against Poncho dogs, with only 1 Patrick-type Bolio individual showing game.

That lone individual that showed game still couldn't make it to the hour mark with Tulipa (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7382) even though she was bigger.

I think THE RIGHT Bolio dogs are simply the best dogs in the world pound-for-pound ... but not too many people know what that means.

Jack

[swampdawg]

Frosty trust me when I say redboyjocko blood is still alive.You dont know the right people that still run the blood.They can compete at any level but most have gone underground because of the times we live in today.

[Macker]

This has been a great tread so far, some really interesting stuff here, fair play to everybody for there inputs.

[FrostyPaws]

Frosty trust me when I say redboyjocko blood is still alive.You dont know the right people that still run the blood.They can compete at any level but most have gone underground because of the times we live in today.

Swamp, I've been around RBJ dogs since '92. When it comes to those dogs, I've never seen any that I would feed over the Voyles' Little John dogs from then OR now. Those dogs are still competing at any level. I'm well aware of what QUALITY RBJ dogs can do as I'm well aware what QUALITY (insert line here) can do. If you've followed this thread through it's entirety, you would see what I've said at least once that I was a fan of RBJ dogs, but the original statement is silly. I still have dogs with RBJ blood coursing through their veins, and you certainly don't me well enough to know who I know or don't know when it comes to those dogs.

A top quality dog from any line can compete at any level.

[Thunder98]

They're both great and probably the reason they joined up to make history. In this day and age in this big World unofficial or official no one really knows.... both are great hog hunters nevertheless, and there always seems to be something better if you know how that goes. Jmo

[waccamaw]

Swamp, I've been around RBJ dogs since '92. When it comes to those dogs, I've never seen any that I would feed over the Voyles' Little John dogs from then OR now. Those dogs are still competing at any level. I'm well aware of what QUALITY RBJ dogs can do as I'm well aware what QUALITY (insert line here) can do. If you've followed this thread through it's entirety, you would see what I've said at least once that I was a fan of RBJ dogs, but the original statement is silly. I still have dogs with RBJ blood coursing through their veins, and you certainly don't me well enough to know who I know or don't know when it comes to those dogs.

A top quality dog from any line can compete at any level.

As you said voles got his dogs straight from fletcher Chavis ,so did we and only lived 2 hrs from him .and about what jack said out west dogs ,ever think where most of those dogs come from ,sc ,nc ,ga .now let's see what are from this area ,mt.man,mr burns ,Crenshaw,tant,FB,tom garner,Cham,untouchables,gaston,Hargrove ,fletcher Chavis ,pit bull Rick,Texas Ron ,Vernon Jackson before he left ,perry ,Powell,BM of hardcore,,Barney,Larry combs ,willy Nelson ,gainey.and a lot I will leave out .i don't know but I think a lot of those out west dogs came from some of these guys from the east .

[FrostyPaws]

Wacc, while I think where dogs come from initially may have some relevant meaning, how the end up years down the road (better or worse) is solely dependent on the people with those dogs and working them. I'm sure there are plenty of dogs all over the world that weren't up to ANYONE'S standards when sold, but later on through dedication and smart breeding, the new owners made those dogs better. If the dogs on the west coast are still successful from those men, it isn't because of those men. It is because of the owners NOW and their ability to continue to improve upon what they originally bought. Because Voyles got Double Trouble and Sexy from Fletcher in the 80s doesn't mean those dogs competed at the level they did, and do now, because they came from him. They did that due to what Voyles bred, schooled, and put out there over the decades since then. I can list names of men that have sent dogs all over the world, and while the initial success is due to them most of the time, the continuing success isn't.

[waccamaw]

The reason I oped that was you made it a point to say voles got his dogs straight from Chavis.and jack made the statement about out west in comparison to sc .what I was getting at most of the so called great dog men cane from the east coast .like you said voles got his great dogs from sc .

[FrostyPaws]

Yes, he got his dogs straight from Fletcher. That is true. But what he did afterwards was all his doing not Fletcher's doing. Double Trouble and Sexy weren't outstanding dogs. Little John himself wasn't an outstanding dog. I never said he got great dogs from Fletcher. What Voyles and Little John produced were some outstanding dogs, and that was due to the breeding decisions Voyles made himself. It had little to do with dogs coming from Fletcher.

Some of the best dogs I've ever had/seen were from a obscure breeder from Oklahoma. The ability to breed quality dogs, or quality dogs themselves, don't all originate on the East Coast. I'm in the South. I've lived all over this country and in Canada. None of the best dogs I've ever seen were bred by someone on the East Coast. As for your definition of great dogmen and mine, well, I'd say that while there are some common agreements, I wouldn't put every name you had in the "great" dogman category.

[waccamaw]

Well they are not great in my eyes either ,but a lot thought they were.what I was getting at a fella did not have to go across the country when a big share of them was already here .by the way where was ole man Hollingsworth from?

[waccamaw]

East coast ,west coast don't mean much to me ,all lines are spread all over the country and world now ,it actually comes to the smarts and common sense the man has .

[loot]

Frosty trust me when I say redboyjocko blood is still alive.You dont know the right people that still run the blood.They can compete at any level but most have gone underground because of the times we live in today.

I agree with that statement.

[Officially Retired]

Frosty trust me when I say redboyjocko blood is still alive.You dont know the right people that still run the blood.They can compete at any level but most have gone underground because of the times we live in today.

You have a comprehension disorder.

Frosty never said that RBJ isn't "still alive" ... he said the idea that these "pure Redboy dogs are all game" is a fallacy.
Same as he said thinking all Bolio dogs are "world class athletes" is a fallacy. And it is.

Frosty has been in the game longer than most on this thread and can probably make whatever "contacts" he needs to.

If you would learn to read better, Swamp, you wouldn't go off on tangents like this.

Waccamaw made the statement that people, "need some redboy for heart (gameness ) and jocko for the mouth."

Frosty said no one he has ever heard of goes to "Jocko for mouth" ... and he said most pure Redboy dogs aren't game anymore.
He believes that whatever gameness they used to be known for has been bred out of most individuals.

He never said anything about RBJ dogs being gone ... he picked apart that above statement Wac made.

Most people I know DON'T go to Redboy dogs for gameness ... only a select few in the south might ... but most people I know go for some kind of Carver/Bolio or Clouse-bred dog for gameness.
And most people I know go to some kind of Eli-bred dog for mouth.

And a lot of people (who actually live somewhere besides the Carolinas) do too.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

The reason I oped that was you made it a point to say voles got his dogs straight from Chavis.and jack made the statement about out west in comparison to sc .what I was getting at most of the so called great dog men cane from the east coast .like you said voles got his great dogs from sc .

Most of the great dogmen came from the east coast? Really?

What all-time great names are better than Tudor and Carver, who were western dogmen?

Seems to me, most eastern dogmen got their foundation dogs from western dogmen ;)

Jack

[Officially Retired]

You can add Patrick's name to that ... Hollingsworth, Boyles, and STP all got their very best dogs from that western breeder also ;)

[waccamaw]

You can add Patrick's name to that ... Hollingsworth, Boyles, and STP all got their very best dogs from that western breeder also ;)

There you go .so one would not have to go west being the west has made east .but where did the Patrick get his dogs .

[waccamaw]

Most of the great dogmen came from the east coast? Really?

What all-time great names are better than Tudor and Carver, who were western dogmen?

Seems to me, most eastern dogmen got their foundation dogs from western dogmen ;)

Jack

This can go on and on ,but you nc look back in their Peds and it goes back east .

[Officially Retired]

There you go .so one would not have to go west being the west has made east.

Right. Exactly. The west made the east.




but where did the Patrick get his dogs .

From the western dogmen Carver and Mayfield :)




This can go on and on ,but you nc look back in their Peds and it goes back east .

Yes it can, but the best, most historical, most influential dogmen are not from North Carolina ... they're western dogmen.

The great western dogmen are the ones who set the eastern dogmen up :)

In fact, Tom Garner got his two most influential dogs (Chinaman and Frisco) from the western dogman Vince Romero.
All his other dogs (even the ones with Crenshaw in them) came from the west, as Crenshaw likewise got his best dogs from the western dogman Maurice Carver also.

Jack

[BRICKFACE]

Howard Heinzl was a very influential Western dogman. Just sayin

[swampdawg]

Bass,Teal,Skinner,Hemphill,Oneal,Colby and the list goes on

[evolutionkennels]

:deadhorse::deadhorse::deadhorse:

[GO HARD]

i wish this was 25 years ago

[swampdawg]

Ive had alot of diff. bloodlines over 30 plus yrs and dont consider myself a breeder but can say ive tried most lines out there and have fewer pulling up on me than rbj dogs.They may not be the best line because everyone has there own opinion on what a good dogs is,but can tell u I'll feed these fool dogs as long as I can walk,then maybe I'll crawl out to them.Just my 2cents.

[waccamaw]

Right. Exactly. The west made the east.





From the western dogmen Carver and Mayfield :)





Yes it can, but the best, most historical, most influential dogmen are not from North Carolina ... they're western dogmen.

The great western dogmen are the ones who set the eastern dogmen up :)

In fact, Tom Garner got his two most influential dogs (Chinaman and Frisco) from the western dogman Vince Romero.
All his other dogs (even the ones with Crenshaw in them) came from the west, as Crenshaw likewise got his best dogs from the western dogman Maurice Carver also.

Jack

Jack you are so full of shit .i bet when the first dogs came over from Ireland they went straight to the west .

[waccamaw]

i wish this was 25 years ago

Me too!(lol) and I wish I knew jack when I was in San dog.

[CRISIS]

tom DID get chinaman from the west....... ;):-?:lol:

[waccamaw]

tom DID get chinaman from the west....... ;):-?:lol:

That is not why I said he is full of it ,lol.he just is !

[Officially Retired]

Jack you are so full of shit .i bet when the first dogs came over from Ireland they went straight to the west .

How am I full of shit?

LMAO, quite frankly, you're the one who's full of shit in every outlandish claim you've made. On down the line.

Essentially, you've been made a fool of on virtually every topic you've brought up ... and you have ZERO answers to anything I've said.

From RBJ dogs "killing the most."
To "all" the good ones being RBJ.
And, now, to your statement of "the best dogmen" being on the east coast.

I've asked you to name those "killingest" dogs compared to other bloodlines. (You can't.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have killed the best RBJ dogs on earth. (You have no answer.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have won more fights, and killed more dogs, than any RBJ dog on earth. (So you change the subject.)


And, now, you made the asinine statement that "the best dogmen" are on the east coast.
Well, buddy, I made a list of THE BEST breeders from the west ... who sold damned near every major east coast breeder their dogs ... and, once again, you can't come back with a rebuttal.

You have made an fool out of yourself, basically, on practically every level there is to be had, saying nothing but pure silliness.

And so now all you can say "I" am full of shit :lol:

The truth is, you should stop making baseless, ridiculous, unfounded claims ... and start making some rational, realistic ones :idea:

Jack


.

[BlackHeartWarrior]

#:-S Wow Guys. Sh!ts Heated in here. For the record ive been in the dogs around 7 years only and since day one i was RBJ Fan of Note. I beleived only in this line of dog for many years. I've owned very good dogs of this line never owned a Line bred RBJ dog but most of my stock was the closest to that in my country. Now i can tell you I am yet to come across a more Gamer line in my life. I had this little star Lady-Artemis x1GL who was 40% RBJ and old ozzie steavens blood/Eli outcross. This Dog was magic. From 2 months of age she would scream to get to any animal thinking she would end it even thou it was 10 times her size. She was stupid brave and had heart like no other. I thought the world of her and thought she could not be beaten. I challenged one of the best 19.5 females in the country @ the time. Hanna 2xw. She was a yellow/Bolio dog and was one of the most hunt smart animals i have seen. From the moment they where realeased it was a all out war. Barn storming lady into a pitsmart hanna. Both dogs where going toe to toe for 1:28 mins. Hanna eventually destroyed ladies front right leg and she lost all use of it and her left front leg was pretty damaged aswell. I thought it was over but little did i know that night i witnessed was gonna move my heart and shake the essence of my soul, Remind me why i got into these animals. Man she scratched like a beauty. rocketed out the corner and scratched on her face tail wagging in the air taking hold of hanna and colapsing to the ground but fighting her so fierlesly. 1 hour 41 i conceided due to the fact i knew both dogs had gone pass the point of no return and i was hoping to save them. Hanna became a champion that night and made her father a rom but both dogs lost there lives 3 days later. I will never forget when i conceided i asked them for her last scratch. ran out the corner and tumbled to her opponent making it to her on her face. taking hold. These RBJ Dogs will forever and always hold a dear place in my heart. GAME TO THE BONE!

[BlackHeartWarrior]

Now let me tell you the truth. RBJ Dogs game as can be. Truth be told Red boy dogs are as dumb as they come, Yellow Dogs as smart as they come but who really wants a ear sucker. Mayday dogs can bite and balanced out and are all round athletes. Redboy dogs by themselves are not such a good line. Yellow dogs and may dogs. Basically same shit. Ear suckers and fancy foot work. This is what Great matches are made of. Going 3-4 hours, spectacular and heart moving but truth be told this is not what wins shows. In my personal Opinion from what i have seen in my country. Nothing compares with The Eli Line. Even the frisco/Tudor/Chinaman Line what i dislike wins like you cant beleive. Eli/Bolio is a unstoppable combination what produce dogs of such caliber they will shock ur socks of. My prefrence of the eli strain comes from the The mexican strain of Enrico Morfine dogs. i find that works with bolio the best and produce dogs what RBJ just cant. Thats my own personal opinion and i still run RBJ dogs but the truth is RBJ are not best dogs in terms of campaigning today. They work as a nice out cross and add some key attributes i find if u keep there blood at 25% or less in a breeding u will be taking there best atributes while allowing for less negavtives.

[waccamaw]

How am I full of shit?

LMAO, quite frankly, you're the one who's full of shit in every outlandish claim you've made. On down the line.

Essentially, you've been made a fool of on virtually every topic you've brought up ... and you have ZERO answers to anything I've said.

From RBJ dogs "killing the most."
To "all" the good ones being RBJ.
And, now, to your statement of "the best dogmen" being on the east coast.

I've asked you to name those "killingest" dogs compared to other bloodlines. (You can't.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have killed the best RBJ dogs on earth. (You have no answer.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have won more fights, and killed more dogs, than any RBJ dog on earth. (So you change the subject.)


And, now, you made the asinine statement that "the best dogmen" are on the east coast.
Well, buddy, I made a list of THE BEST breeders from the west ... who sold damned near every major east coast breeder their dogs ... and, once again, you can't come back with a rebuttal.

You have made an fool out of yourself, basically, on practically every level there is to be had, saying nothing but pure silliness.

And so now all you can say "I" am full of shit :lol:

The truth is, you should stop making baseless, ridiculous, unfounded claims ... and start making some rational, realistic ones :idea:

Jack


.

Jack ,just because you say so does not mean is so,.yes a few breeders did come from the west but where did they get their start fool.keep on and I will tell you how and why you got sassy back!it ain't pretty .dont make me go on a seek and destroy mission to prove I am right .catch my drift!

[waccamaw]

How am I full of shit?

LMAO, quite frankly, you're the one who's full of shit in every outlandish claim you've made. On down the line.

Essentially, you've been made a fool of on virtually every topic you've brought up ... and you have ZERO answers to anything I've said.

From RBJ dogs "killing the most."
To "all" the good ones being RBJ.
And, now, to your statement of "the best dogmen" being on the east coast.

I've asked you to name those "killingest" dogs compared to other bloodlines. (You can't.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have killed the best RBJ dogs on earth. (You have no answer.)
I've listed a boatload of dogs that have won more fights, and killed more dogs, than any RBJ dog on earth. (So you change the subject.)


And, now, you made the asinine statement that "the best dogmen" are on the east coast.
Well, buddy, I made a list of THE BEST breeders from the west ... who sold damned near every major east coast breeder their dogs ... and, once again, you can't come back with a rebuttal.

You have made an fool out of yourself, basically, on practically every level there is to be had, saying nothing but pure silliness.

And so now all you can say "I" am full of shit :lol:

The truth is, you should stop making baseless, ridiculous, unfounded claims ... and start making some rational, realistic ones :idea:

Jack


.

Any poncho dogs in North Carolina !!!,,,

[waccamaw]

This is to Blue print ,

Blue print take note on this thread ,this is how to hard heade men debate ,neither one will back down or suck ups .ain't that right jack .lol

[Nextlevel]

This is to Blue print ,

Blue print take note on this thread ,this is how to hard heade men debate ,neither one will back down or suck ups .ain't that right jack .lol


Forget the heat we are in the kitchen... RBJ boys stand up..... Little Marvin Gaye in here (We 're all sensitive people with so much to give..... Let's get it on, Ah, baby let's get it on).....

[Officially Retired]

Jack ,just because you say so does not mean is so,.yes a few breeders did come from the west but where did they get their start fool.keep on and I will tell you how and why you got sassy back!it ain't pretty .dont make me go on a seek and destroy mission to prove I am right .catch my drift!

Sonny, why is it all you do is talk shit when you're destroyed intellectually and factually?

We've gone through this years ago, back when those half-breed dogs I mixed with yours quit on my yard, and you couldn't take the truth then either.

Do you remember that, Sonny?
I didn't do or say anything against you.
I just said how a Poncho/Mayday dog (Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168)) destroyed a Big John/Poncho dog (Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695)) and you lost it and thought I was attacking you.
Hell, they were both my dogs, and I was just being honest about who-was-what on my own yard.
But you couldn't take it, you flipped out, and you started attacking everything.
Do you remember when Victor Aycart actually came onto my board over it, and offered to fight Mayday against Big John, for $10G or a bottle of Coke, and you shit yourself?
You used Big John's "age" as an excuse ... but Mayday was just as old. Most of us were embarrassed for you.

You call me a fool here, Sonny, but YOU'RE the one who can't back up your statements.
I am still waiting for you to do a Pedigree Search and show me all those RBJ dogs that have won more than 6 fights.

You've made some incredibly-stupid statements, and I have just been wasting a bunch of my time correcting them. That's all.
Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

As far as breeders go. The early Americans importing bulldogs does NOT make them Maurice Carver.
You said BEST dogmen and, historically-speaking, most of THE most influential dogs of today's game came from the breeding programs of Carver, Tudor, and Patrick.
Nearly every so-called "great" eastcoast dogman today got his start from the great breeders of the west. That's a fact.
Now you're running your mouth, instead of retracting yet another dumb statement, and you're staring to piss me off.

Either name those BEST dogmen who are on the east coast, who trump Carver, Tudor, and Patrick as influences over today's dogs, or admit you made another stupid statement.
Right in line with the, "All the good ones are RBJ or have RBJ in them," stupid statement. Face it Sonny, they were both stupid statements.

So why start attacking my dogs? I didn't attack your dogs.
Why do you say "I" am full of shit, when ONLY "I" have actually taken the time to refute what you've said with actual dog names?
I didn't make this personal at first. Why do you turn into you such a little punk, rather than admit what you've said is ridiculous? Especially the statement about "all the good ones" being RBJ :lol:

But fine, let's go. I will crack my knuckles and make a fool out of you some more ...

As far as Sassy goes, you got her back because that son of Bud I had was a cold POS and I didn't want him.
I was very grateful to get Sassy back. And I will compare the production record of Sassy, and her littermates, to that of Bud and his littermates any day.

Oh, and if you want to go on any mission against my dogs, be my guest: you'll lose there too. You'll understand how I got my other handle "SmileWiper" ;)

Here's a reality check, Sonny: do you remember when your Ch Split Ear (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7920) dog got his ass handed to him by the 8 lb smaller Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) when you came to Andy's place to roll with Doc? We were going to roll into each other, and you had 75 dogs. I told you Doc was 49 lb, and instead of you selecting something his size, you brought the 57-lb Split Ear, an 8-POUND BIGGER DOG. Now that right there told me all I needed to know about how chickenshit you are :idea:

And yet Doc still kicked Split Ear's ass for 15 straight minutes ... until the weight became a factor. Yet that same Doc (who you said was "a future Champion") was later shipwrecked and quit in :12 to the 1-lb smaller Poncho/Kitana dog Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168), and Doc wasn't ahead of Junior for a split-second, let alone a split-ear :lol:
It was a decimation. Junior destroyed Doc, who couldn't physically get up under his own power after just :12 of Junior on him.

Split Ear couldn't whip one side of Poncho Jr., even with a weight advantage. How that dog of yours made Champion, when he was made a fool of by an 8-lb smaller dog (who himself got shipwrecked by a 1-lb smaller dog) only goes to show the low level of competition at the weight class you fight at. That is why I like smaller dogs is because they actually have TALENT. At the same weight, the shit you run couldn't whip one side of what I consider to be a roll dog, ability-wise, let alone my best.

But hey, you can be my guest and see for yourself. If you'd like, I can go over how every single dog I've had/seen from you (crosses and pure ones) has done against my stuff, including that piece of shit bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) you sold Andy, who was picked up in less than :05 to both Misty Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8457) and Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879), respectively. At least with Misty Red, that bitch of Andy's had an excuse for getting her ass handed to her: Misty Red was a very experienced a devastating face dog. But with Pantera, it was pretty embarrassing, seeing as Pantera was only 10 months old at the time, and your bitch was a pound bigger and fully-mature ... and yet your bitch needed help in about :4 min :lol: :embarrassed:

So please, sell that "badass, we-have-it-all" bullshit to someone who hasn't actually seen several of your dogs go :lol:
And who doesn't also have truly badass dogs of his own ;)

And we won't even talk about the cold Miss Sabre (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38097), because she wouldn't do shit, so there's nothing to talk about :lol:

Jack

[creek_bottom]

I've been reading this thread for a few days now and I know that Jack certainly does his homework and provides many interesting factual statements. I've only been in these dogs for 11 years and I am personally a big fan of RBJ and Jeep/Redboy dogs although I've tries several other bloodlines over the past 11 years. I actually have a dog now down off some of Waccamaws stuff crossed to some Tab stuff that is doing well for himself. I'm in Texas and I can honestly say I've never had the opportunity to see any vise grip dogs at all. No poncho dogs no coca cola dogs no silverback dogs nothing. This probably has a lot to do with the small circle I keep and my limited time in the dogs. My question to you Jack is if I was interested in giving your stock a try what would be my best bet to go with? I know you don't maintain a large yard anymore but do you still breed and have dogs available? If not who do you feel is doing the best work out there now with your line? I know you are very knowledgeable on breeding and genetics as well what crosses if any worked best for you off your Hollingsworth stuff or is keeping it pure the way to go. Thanks in advance for any insight you can send my way.
Creek Bottom

[Officially Retired]

I've been reading this thread for a few days now and I know that Jack certainly does his homework and provides many interesting factual statements. I've only been in these dogs for 11 years and I am personally a big fan of RBJ and Jeep/Redboy dogs although I've tries several other bloodlines over the past 11 years. I actually have a dog now down off some of Waccamaws stuff crossed to some Tab stuff that is doing well for himself.

Hi. Yes, I do try to do my homework, and either use facts to support what I say, or I don't say anything.

I am glad your dog is "doing well for himself," but what does that mean, exactly?

Won something? Looks good in his first roll? At what level has he done something well?




I'm in Texas and I can honestly say I've never had the opportunity to see any vise grip dogs at all. No poncho dogs no coca cola dogs no silverback dogs nothing. This probably has a lot to do with the small circle I keep and my limited time in the dogs. My question to you Jack is if I was interested in giving your stock a try what would be my best bet to go with? I know you don't maintain a large yard anymore but do you still breed and have dogs available? If not who do you feel is doing the best work out there now with your line? I know you are very knowledgeable on breeding and genetics as well what crosses if any worked best for you off your Hollingsworth stuff or is keeping it pure the way to go. Thanks in advance for any insight you can send my way.
Creek Bottom

There have been a few Poncho dogs in Texas. Get with Redrum on this forum if you're in Texas and want to see some. He has the Icestorm (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=472) dog from me, who's "done well for himself" as a producer also. What I mean by that phrase is the first of his offspring won BIS (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=827) in a huge Mexican convention not too long ago, and is getting bred to some of the best Champion and Grand Champion bitches in all of Mexico (Gr Ch Cheyenne (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=325957), Ch Enana (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Pedigrees&file=printPedigree&dog_id=316486), etc.), since dozens of people (not a "small circle") saw him literally get his muzzle eaten off his face (as in, literally, removed--he can't be photographed anymore) ... and he still never quit and won the fight in 2:10 ... and lived.

So he might have something for you.

Good luck,

Jack

[creek_bottom]

Thanks again for the info and I will try and contact redrum.
Creek Bottom

[Thunder98]

Jack I must say u know your shit.... very interesting thread. Still 2 great lines from the right sources.

[CrazyRed]

Any poncho dogs in North Carolina !!!,,,

There are quite a few down there or close to it. I know some are in SC but i dont think they are in your weight class, if they are please do know it aint taking candy from a baby.

[Blueprint]

This is to Blue print ,

Blue print take note on this thread ,this is how to hard heade men debate ,neither one will back down or suck ups .ain't that right jack .lol
I didn't back down or suck up. I'm a more in person hands on face to face type if you know what I mean. The Internet is the Internet so I just choose to keep it moving and leave it at that. One could go back and forth all day long but in the end what does it amount to ? Maybe being a keyboard jockey or Internet bad ass. I thought I was getting away from the bull that goes on Feds online by coming here but guess not its still the Internet.
.

[S_B]

:cheers:


I didn't back down or suck up. I'm a more in person hands on face to face type if you know what I mean. The Internet is the Internet so I just choose to keep it moving and leave it at that. One could go back and forth all day long but in the end what does it amount to ? Maybe being a keyboard jockey or Internet bad ass. I thought I was getting away from the bull that goes on Feds online by coming here but guess not its still the Internet.
.

[GO HARD]

My waccamaw hounds is getting the job done and i have no insecurities about taking them hog hunting (anywhere). I also have several hounds from Mr grinderman that get the job done in short order. One must remember that (anybody) can get that ass tore up. Imo it makes a big difference in who the hound is being brought in by to determine the hounds available output that day.

[waccamaw]

I didn't back down or suck up. I'm a more in person hands on face to face type if you know what I mean. The Internet is the Internet so I just choose to keep it moving and leave it at that. One could go back and forth all day long but in the end what does it amount to ? Maybe being a keyboard jockey or Internet bad ass. I thought I was getting away from the bull that goes on Feds online by coming here but guess not its still the Internet.
.

I know what you mean that is the way I am ,when jack was in Atlanta living with compound kennel he wrote me a $600 bad check .so come Sunday morning I pulled up at their house at 7 am a 6 hr ride for me .this can be verified by Andy Lewis compound kennel .and I came home with the $600 .i have kept this between jack and myself other than compound kennel all these years .he sure was surprised to see me .

[waccamaw]

Forget the heat we are in the kitchen... RBJ boys stand up..... Little Marvin Gaye in here (We 're all sensitive people with so much to give..... Let's get it on, Ah, baby let's get it on).....

Like I told way back then jack the breeding was like coffee and water ,my dogs being coffee and yours the water .mix the water with coffee the water gets stronger and the coffee gets weaker ,by the way sassy ran out the woods down here in 2 min

[waccamaw]

Sonny, why is it all you do is talk shit when you're destroyed intellectually and factually?

We've gone through this years ago, back when those half-breed dogs I mixed with yours quit on my yard, and you couldn't take the truth then either.

Do you remember that, Sonny?
I didn't do or say anything against you.
I just said how a Poncho/Mayday dog (Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168)) destroyed a Big John/Poncho dog (Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695)) and you lost it and thought I was attacking you.
Hell, they were both my dogs, and I was just being honest about who-was-what on my own yard.
But you couldn't take it, you flipped out, and you started attacking everything.
Do you remember when Victor Aycart actually came onto my board over it, and offered to fight Mayday against Big John, for $10G or a bottle of Coke, and you shit yourself?
You used Big John's "age" as an excuse ... but Mayday was just as old. Most of us were embarrassed for you.

You call me a fool here, Sonny, but YOU'RE the one who can't back up your statements.
I am still waiting for you to do a Pedigree Search and show me all those RBJ dogs that have won more than 6 fights.

You've made some incredibly-stupid statements, and I have just been wasting a bunch of my time correcting them. That's all.
Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

As far as breeders go. The early Americans importing bulldogs does NOT make them Maurice Carver.
You said BEST dogmen and, historically-speaking, most of THE most influential dogs of today's game came from the breeding programs of Carver, Tudor, and Patrick.
Nearly every so-called "great" eastcoast dogman today got his start from the great breeders of the west. That's a fact.
Now you're running your mouth, instead of retracting yet another dumb statement, and you're staring to piss me off.

Either name those BEST dogmen who are on the east coast, who trump Carver, Tudor, and Patrick as influences over today's dogs, or admit you made another stupid statement.
Right in line with the, "All the good ones are RBJ or have RBJ in them," stupid statement. Face it Sonny, they were both stupid statements.

So why start attacking my dogs? I didn't attack your dogs.
Why do you say "I" am full of shit, when ONLY "I" have actually taken the time to refute what you've said with actual dog names?
I didn't make this personal at first. Why do you turn into you such a little punk, rather than admit what you've said is ridiculous? Especially the statement about "all the good ones" being RBJ :lol:

But fine, let's go. I will crack my knuckles and make a fool out of you some more ...

As far as Sassy goes, you got her back because that son of Bud I had was a cold POS and I didn't want him.
I was very grateful to get Sassy back. And I will compare the production record of Sassy, and her littermates, to that of Bud and his littermates any day.

Oh, and if you want to go on any mission against my dogs, be my guest: you'll lose there too. You'll understand how I got my other handle "SmileWiper" ;)

Here's a reality check, Sonny: do you remember when your Ch Split Ear (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7920) dog got his ass handed to him by the 8 lb smaller Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) when you came to Andy's place to roll with Doc? We were going to roll into each other, and you had 75 dogs. I told you Doc was 49 lb, and instead of you selecting something his size, you brought the 57-lb Split Ear, an 8-POUND BIGGER DOG. Now that right there told me all I needed to know about how chickenshit you are :idea:

And yet Doc still kicked Split Ear's ass for 15 straight minutes ... until the weight became a factor. Yet that same Doc (who you said was "a future Champion") was later shipwrecked and quit in :12 to the 1-lb smaller Poncho/Kitana dog Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168), and Doc wasn't ahead of Junior for a split-second, let alone a split-ear :lol:
It was a decimation. Junior destroyed Doc, who couldn't physically get up under his own power after just :12 of Junior on him.

Split Ear couldn't whip one side of Poncho Jr., even with a weight advantage. How that dog of yours made Champion, when he was made a fool of by an 8-lb smaller dog (who himself got shipwrecked by a 1-lb smaller dog) only goes to show the low level of competition at the weight class you fight at. That is why I like smaller dogs is because they actually have TALENT. At the same weight, the shit you run couldn't whip one side of what I consider to be a roll dog, ability-wise, let alone my best.

But hey, you can be my guest and see for yourself. If you'd like, I can go over how every single dog I've had/seen from you (crosses and pure ones) has done against my stuff, including that piece of shit bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) you sold Andy, who was picked up in less than :05 to both Misty Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8457) and Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879), respectively. At least with Misty Red, that bitch of Andy's had an excuse for getting her ass handed to her: Misty Red was a very experienced a devastating face dog. But with Pantera, it was pretty embarrassing, seeing as Pantera was only 10 months old at the time, and your bitch was a pound bigger and fully-mature ... and yet your bitch needed help in about :4 min :lol: :embarrassed:

So please, sell that "badass, we-have-it-all" bullshit to someone who hasn't actually seen several of your dogs go :lol:
And who doesn't also have truly badass dogs of his own ;)

And we won't even talk about the cold Miss Sabre (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38097), because she wouldn't do shit, so there's nothing to talk about :lol:

Jack

Jack if them dogs got any bad traits it came from your stock after all you said you needed the outcrossing.do you remember a dog named pretty boy ,he came from you some fellas down this way had him lost to Vick .said he was the rankest of all curs .

[waccamaw]

Sonny, why is it all you do is talk shit when you're destroyed intellectually and factually?

We've gone through this years ago, back when those half-breed dogs I mixed with yours quit on my yard, and you couldn't take the truth then either.

Do you remember that, Sonny?
I didn't do or say anything against you.
I just said how a Poncho/Mayday dog (Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168)) destroyed a Big John/Poncho dog (Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695)) and you lost it and thought I was attacking you.
Hell, they were both my dogs, and I was just being honest about who-was-what on my own yard.
But you couldn't take it, you flipped out, and you started attacking everything.
Do you remember when Victor Aycart actually came onto my board over it, and offered to fight Mayday against Big John, for $10G or a bottle of Coke, and you shit yourself?
You used Big John's "age" as an excuse ... but Mayday was just as old. Most of us were embarrassed for you.

You call me a fool here, Sonny, but YOU'RE the one who can't back up your statements.
I am still waiting for you to do a Pedigree Search and show me all those RBJ dogs that have won more than 6 fights.

You've made some incredibly-stupid statements, and I have just been wasting a bunch of my time correcting them. That's all.
Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

As far as breeders go. The early Americans importing bulldogs does NOT make them Maurice Carver.
You said BEST dogmen and, historically-speaking, most of THE most influential dogs of today's game came from the breeding programs of Carver, Tudor, and Patrick.
Nearly every so-called "great" eastcoast dogman today got his start from the great breeders of the west. That's a fact.
Now you're running your mouth, instead of retracting yet another dumb statement, and you're staring to piss me off.

Either name those BEST dogmen who are on the east coast, who trump Carver, Tudor, and Patrick as influences over today's dogs, or admit you made another stupid statement.
Right in line with the, "All the good ones are RBJ or have RBJ in them," stupid statement. Face it Sonny, they were both stupid statements.

So why start attacking my dogs? I didn't attack your dogs.
Why do you say "I" am full of shit, when ONLY "I" have actually taken the time to refute what you've said with actual dog names?
I didn't make this personal at first. Why do you turn into you such a little punk, rather than admit what you've said is ridiculous? Especially the statement about "all the good ones" being RBJ :lol:

But fine, let's go. I will crack my knuckles and make a fool out of you some more ...

As far as Sassy goes, you got her back because that son of Bud I had was a cold POS and I didn't want him.
I was very grateful to get Sassy back. And I will compare the production record of Sassy, and her littermates, to that of Bud and his littermates any day.

Oh, and if you want to go on any mission against my dogs, be my guest: you'll lose there too. You'll understand how I got my other handle "SmileWiper" ;)

Here's a reality check, Sonny: do you remember when your Ch Split Ear (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7920) dog got his ass handed to him by the 8 lb smaller Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) when you came to Andy's place to roll with Doc? We were going to roll into each other, and you had 75 dogs. I told you Doc was 49 lb, and instead of you selecting something his size, you brought the 57-lb Split Ear, an 8-POUND BIGGER DOG. Now that right there told me all I needed to know about how chickenshit you are :idea:

And yet Doc still kicked Split Ear's ass for 15 straight minutes ... until the weight became a factor. Yet that same Doc (who you said was "a future Champion") was later shipwrecked and quit in :12 to the 1-lb smaller Poncho/Kitana dog Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168), and Doc wasn't ahead of Junior for a split-second, let alone a split-ear :lol:
It was a decimation. Junior destroyed Doc, who couldn't physically get up under his own power after just :12 of Junior on him.

Split Ear couldn't whip one side of Poncho Jr., even with a weight advantage. How that dog of yours made Champion, when he was made a fool of by an 8-lb smaller dog (who himself got shipwrecked by a 1-lb smaller dog) only goes to show the low level of competition at the weight class you fight at. That is why I like smaller dogs is because they actually have TALENT. At the same weight, the shit you run couldn't whip one side of what I consider to be a roll dog, ability-wise, let alone my best.

But hey, you can be my guest and see for yourself. If you'd like, I can go over how every single dog I've had/seen from you (crosses and pure ones) has done against my stuff, including that piece of shit bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) you sold Andy, who was picked up in less than :05 to both Misty Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8457) and Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879), respectively. At least with Misty Red, that bitch of Andy's had an excuse for getting her ass handed to her: Misty Red was a very experienced a devastating face dog. But with Pantera, it was pretty embarrassing, seeing as Pantera was only 10 months old at the time, and your bitch was a pound bigger and fully-mature ... and yet your bitch needed help in about :4 min :lol: :embarrassed:

So please, sell that "badass, we-have-it-all" bullshit to someone who hasn't actually seen several of your dogs go :lol:
And who doesn't also have truly badass dogs of his own ;)

And we won't even talk about the cold Miss Sabre (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38097), because she wouldn't do shit, so there's nothing to talk about :lol:

Jack

Jack you keep talking about dog fights ,first of all I hog hunt and sale dogs for hog hunting not dog fighting.now to set you straight on big John and mayday ,big John was like 9 or 10 years old and no teeth .and if you think that is the way to do a dog then you are no dog man either ,and the way you talked to blueprint with a fat dog and you think it is fine to put a 10 year old dog with no teeth up to that stress .you are a idiot .and if these clowns believe all that you say they are idiots to.a man can't believe half what he reads online ,just like you researched stps buck and gainey's jr to find out your research was wrong and. To think my not knowing dumbass had to correct you ha,ha ,and all you could do was blame it on Barney fife a dead man .you just can't stand to be wrong and you can't stand for nobody disagreeing with you either .

[waccamaw]

Sonny, why is it all you do is talk shit when you're destroyed intellectually and factually?

We've gone through this years ago, back when those half-breed dogs I mixed with yours quit on my yard, and you couldn't take the truth then either.

Do you remember that, Sonny?
I didn't do or say anything against you.
I just said how a Poncho/Mayday dog (Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168)) destroyed a Big John/Poncho dog (Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695)) and you lost it and thought I was attacking you.
Hell, they were both my dogs, and I was just being honest about who-was-what on my own yard.
But you couldn't take it, you flipped out, and you started attacking everything.
Do you remember when Victor Aycart actually came onto my board over it, and offered to fight Mayday against Big John, for $10G or a bottle of Coke, and you shit yourself?
You used Big John's "age" as an excuse ... but Mayday was just as old. Most of us were embarrassed for you.

You call me a fool here, Sonny, but YOU'RE the one who can't back up your statements.
I am still waiting for you to do a Pedigree Search and show me all those RBJ dogs that have won more than 6 fights.

You've made some incredibly-stupid statements, and I have just been wasting a bunch of my time correcting them. That's all.
Why can't you just admit you're wrong?

As far as breeders go. The early Americans importing bulldogs does NOT make them Maurice Carver.
You said BEST dogmen and, historically-speaking, most of THE most influential dogs of today's game came from the breeding programs of Carver, Tudor, and Patrick.
Nearly every so-called "great" eastcoast dogman today got his start from the great breeders of the west. That's a fact.
Now you're running your mouth, instead of retracting yet another dumb statement, and you're staring to piss me off.

Either name those BEST dogmen who are on the east coast, who trump Carver, Tudor, and Patrick as influences over today's dogs, or admit you made another stupid statement.
Right in line with the, "All the good ones are RBJ or have RBJ in them," stupid statement. Face it Sonny, they were both stupid statements.

So why start attacking my dogs? I didn't attack your dogs.
Why do you say "I" am full of shit, when ONLY "I" have actually taken the time to refute what you've said with actual dog names?
I didn't make this personal at first. Why do you turn into you such a little punk, rather than admit what you've said is ridiculous? Especially the statement about "all the good ones" being RBJ :lol:

But fine, let's go. I will crack my knuckles and make a fool out of you some more ...

As far as Sassy goes, you got her back because that son of Bud I had was a cold POS and I didn't want him.
I was very grateful to get Sassy back. And I will compare the production record of Sassy, and her littermates, to that of Bud and his littermates any day.

Oh, and if you want to go on any mission against my dogs, be my guest: you'll lose there too. You'll understand how I got my other handle "SmileWiper" ;)

Here's a reality check, Sonny: do you remember when your Ch Split Ear (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7920) dog got his ass handed to him by the 8 lb smaller Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) when you came to Andy's place to roll with Doc? We were going to roll into each other, and you had 75 dogs. I told you Doc was 49 lb, and instead of you selecting something his size, you brought the 57-lb Split Ear, an 8-POUND BIGGER DOG. Now that right there told me all I needed to know about how chickenshit you are :idea:

And yet Doc still kicked Split Ear's ass for 15 straight minutes ... until the weight became a factor. Yet that same Doc (who you said was "a future Champion") was later shipwrecked and quit in :12 to the 1-lb smaller Poncho/Kitana dog Junior (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=168), and Doc wasn't ahead of Junior for a split-second, let alone a split-ear :lol:
It was a decimation. Junior destroyed Doc, who couldn't physically get up under his own power after just :12 of Junior on him.

Split Ear couldn't whip one side of Poncho Jr., even with a weight advantage. How that dog of yours made Champion, when he was made a fool of by an 8-lb smaller dog (who himself got shipwrecked by a 1-lb smaller dog) only goes to show the low level of competition at the weight class you fight at. That is why I like smaller dogs is because they actually have TALENT. At the same weight, the shit you run couldn't whip one side of what I consider to be a roll dog, ability-wise, let alone my best.

But hey, you can be my guest and see for yourself. If you'd like, I can go over how every single dog I've had/seen from you (crosses and pure ones) has done against my stuff, including that piece of shit bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) you sold Andy, who was picked up in less than :05 to both Misty Red (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8457) and Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879), respectively. At least with Misty Red, that bitch of Andy's had an excuse for getting her ass handed to her: Misty Red was a very experienced a devastating face dog. But with Pantera, it was pretty embarrassing, seeing as Pantera was only 10 months old at the time, and your bitch was a pound bigger and fully-mature ... and yet your bitch needed help in about :4 min :lol: :embarrassed:

So please, sell that "badass, we-have-it-all" bullshit to someone who hasn't actually seen several of your dogs go :lol:
And who doesn't also have truly badass dogs of his own ;)

And we won't even talk about the cold Miss Sabre (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38097), because she wouldn't do shit, so there's nothing to talk about :lol:

Jack

Jack you must be drinking shroom tea ,cause hot a wild imagination,and you know you gave yourself that handle lol.and if you look back it was you that started with me !

[waccamaw]

I've been reading this thread for a few days now and I know that Jack certainly does his homework and provides many interesting factual statements. I've only been in these dogs for 11 years and I am personally a big fan of RBJ and Jeep/Redboy dogs although I've tries several other bloodlines over the past 11 years. I actually have a dog now down off some of Waccamaws stuff crossed to some Tab stuff that is doing well for himself. I'm in Texas and I can honestly say I've never had the opportunity to see any vise grip dogs at all. No poncho dogs no coca cola dogs no silverback dogs nothing. This probably has a lot to do with the small circle I keep and my limited time in the dogs. My question to you Jack is if I was interested in giving your stock a try what would be my best bet to go with? I know you don't maintain a large yard anymore but do you still breed and have dogs available? If not who do you feel is doing the best work out there now with your line? I know you are very knowledgeable on breeding and genetics as well what crosses if any worked best for you off your Hollingsworth stuff or is keeping it pure the way to go. Thanks in advance for any insight you can send my way.
Creek Bottom

You mean to tell me there is not a lot of vise grip dogs in Texas ,he'll that's out west .just a few poncho dogs in Texas .thats funny jack is a legend in his on mind .

[waccamaw]

Jack I must say u know your shit.... very interesting thread. Still 2 great lines from the right sources.

Jack is a good talker and writer,but no he doesn't know as much as he thinks .a good talker and a good writer can put up a good front .

[waccamaw]

There are quite a few down there or close to it. I know some are in SC but i dont think they are in your weight class, if they are please do know it aint taking candy from a baby.
Pretty boy was down here ,he was like a baby that got his candy taken away .

[waccamaw]

Jack you starting to act Peds online ! You starting to break your rules.
One last thing for me on this subject then I am done with it ,SAbre was not cold ,she was a nightmare to breed .

[evolutionkennels]

Jack you starting to act Peds online ! You starting to break your rules.
One last thing for me on this subject then I am done with it ,SAbre was not cold ,she was a nightmare to breed .

:deadhorse::deadhorse:

[Thunder98]

@Wacc some of my all time favorites had redboy jocko in them which were butkus dog that had bolio in them as well. My female now has Sabre and Big john in her line, so far she's a keeper. I think both of you guys have a great deal of knowledge about the breed being as successful as you 2 are. I hope to soon owe a pup or breed to(rattler) in the future. They'll always be differences that's why we have different bloodlines...jmo

[waccamaw]

@Wacc some of my all time favorites had redboy jocko in them which were butkus dog that had bolio in them as well. My female now has Sabre and Big john in her line, so far she's a keeper. I think both of you guys have a great deal of knowledge about the breed being as successful as you 2 are. I hope to soon owe a pup or breed to(rattler) in the future. They'll always be differences that's why we have different bloodlines...jmo

Take it slow ,that is a good cross .

[evolutionkennels]

Here is my input on this beat to death subject. BOTH lines are a great line of dogs. The Bolio-Tombstone blend of dogs crosses great with the Eli line for mouth establishhing a seperate line (Boyles) , and the Redboy-Jocko crossed excellent with Rascal and Honeybunch creating the HArdcore Kennels dogs. Here is my opinion, The best Hollingsworth dog ever as a performer was Gr.Ch.Mayday. he was simply a beast. traveled from Puerto Rico to New York City to South Carolina beating the likes of the Gator Boys, Tant, and Soulman. He was indeed a killing machine. With all respect to Waccamaw, If Big John was as good as Mayday, he certainly didn't travel and beat those big name kennels. That being said....Mayday was half Redboy-Jocko! Indeed he was a Hollingsworth dog, bred by Mr.Hollingsworth himself. That begs the question of ,"If the Hollingsworth line had all it needed, why did he breed to Yellow. In addition to that what other Hollingswoth bitch bred to any dog produced three champions in the same litter?" Its a good question. What I am getting at is that Yellow added value, and Mr.Hollingsworth knew it somehow, and the bulldog world is glad he did. As it pertains to Gameness, I've said before ..both dogs bring it, but I think it's a different kind of gameness. My opinion is that the Bolio-Tombstone dogs are deadgame because of thier stubborness in face of defeat, because of their will and mindset not to lose or be defeated. The Bolio-Tombstone dogs are stubborn sons of bitches. You're not going to make one do anything they dont want to. Their coats are finicky and they are LOUD! Lets just say that the neighbors won't appreciate Gr.Ch.Buck living next door.

The Redboy-Jocko dogs are equally as game, but in "my opinion" it's cause they are just to stupid to quit. It's like a switch flips and they will keep on coming no matter what. Like a chicken with it's head held to the ground. Add to that that my experience with Redboy-Jocko dogs is that they are destructive high strung dogs that will run the chain until they die, destroy their doghouses, uproot tree roots.

Frankly, because of that , If I had to pick one or the other it would be the Hollingsworth line. Smarts trumps Retards. Thank goodness.. I dont have to pick one. Almost all my dogs are half of both. That being said, I own two pure Bolio-Tombstone dogs off Ch.Red Pirate to Miss Blitz. I do not own a pure Redboy-Jocko dog. I got rid of the bitch after the breeding to Bull because she was just too destructive. Even managed to destroy and eat some of a stainless steel bowl. That was the straw that broke the camels back. You guys can choose to go at it repeatedly, but there will be no winners. Gr.Ch.Yellow, Gr.Ch.Rodney, Super Gnat's Boots (4:52) Gr.Ch.john Boy, Ch.Yellowjohn, Ch. Rocko, Ch.Deadlift, and many more cement this bloodlines legacy. Crossed into the jeep or Rascal made Ch.yellowolf, Ch. Redman, Ch.Mystic, Ch. Bozak, Ch.Doogie, Ch.judy, and many more.

The Bolio-Tombstone line has a thousand dogs on it's own including Gr.Ch.buck (ROM) and a thousand Boyles winners. The Boyleslineis Hank x Redbaby. Redbaby is a Bolio dog and they used Bobby Jr. heavily. I dont care about west coast or east coast. to me, that is silly. There are many dogmen on the East Coast like STP and Captain America , Southern Kennels, Havannah Boys, Strictly Business that have done the deed well for many years, but the West Coast has just as many if not more. I guess you can sum it up with "to each their own" It is my opinion that half redboy-jocko and half Bolio-Tombstone is better than either on their own. But thats just my opinion based on my experience. i LOVE the Hollingsworth dogs, but if given the choice to cross it with Eli or Redboy-Jocko, its not even a choice. I believe the Redboy-Jocko dogs are 10x gamer than the Eli dogs, and the Termite strain of Jocko do punch just as hard as an Eli dog.

I will say this, because when we did it, we traveled all over the country. YOU MAKE YOUR NAME TRAVELING AND SPANKING PEOPLE IN THIER BACKYARD. Thats how we did it. More credibility to those that do it like that hunting down the hard competition than those that stay locally. I applaud Mr.Hollingsworth's "idiot savant" decision to breed to Yellow. I love my dogs . I urge both parties of this argument to take the high road and show leadership given our audience.

[Nextlevel]

Best topic ever!!!!!

[Blueprint]

Here is my input on this beat to death subject. BOTH lines are a great line of dogs. The Bolio-Tombstone blend of dogs crosses great with the Eli line for mouth establishhing a seperate line (Boyles) , and the Redboy-Jocko crossed excellent with Rascal and Honeybunch creating the HArdcore Kennels dogs. Here is my opinion, The best Hollingsworth dog ever as a performer was Gr.Ch.Mayday. he was simply a beast. traveled from Puerto Rico to New York City to South Carolina beating the likes of the Gator Boys, Tant, and Soulman. He was indeed a killing machine. With all respect to Waccamaw, If Big John was as good as Mayday, he certainly didn't travel and beat those big name kennels. That being said....Mayday was half Redboy-Jocko! Indeed he was a Hollingsworth dog, bred by Mr.Hollingsworth himself. That begs the question of ,"If the Hollingsworth line had all it needed, why did he breed to Yellow. In addition to that what other Hollingswoth bitch bred to any dog produced three champions in the same litter?" Its a good question. What I am getting at is that Yellow added value, and Mr.Hollingsworth knew it somehow, and the bulldog world is glad he did. As it pertains to Gameness, I've said before ..both dogs bring it, but I think it's a different kind of gameness. My opinion is that the Bolio-Tombstone dogs are deadgame because of thier stubborness in face of defeat, because of their will and mindset not to lose or be defeated. The Bolio-Tombstone dogs are stubborn sons of bitches. You're not going to make one do anything they dont want to. Their coats are finicky and they are LOUD! Lets just say that the neighbors won't appreciate Gr.Ch.Buck living next door.

The Redboy-Jocko dogs are equally as game, but in "my opinion" it's cause they are just to stupid to quit. It's like a switch flips and they will keep on coming no matter what. Like a chicken with it's head held to the ground. Add to that that my experience with Redboy-Jocko dogs is that they are destructive high strung dogs that will run the chain until they die, destroy their doghouses, uproot tree roots.

Frankly, because of that , If I had to pick one or the other it would be the Hollingsworth line. Smarts trumps Retards. Thank goodness.. I dont have to pick one. Almost all my dogs are half of both. That being said, I own two pure Bolio-Tombstone dogs off Ch.Red Pirate to Miss Blitz. I do not own a pure Redboy-Jocko dog. I got rid of the bitch after the breeding to Bull because she was just too destructive. Even managed to destroy and eat some of a stainless steel bowl. That was the straw that broke the camels back. You guys can choose to go at it repeatedly, but there will be no winners. Gr.Ch.Yellow, Gr.Ch.Rodney, Super Gnat's Boots (4:52) Gr.Ch.john Boy, Ch.Yellowjohn, Ch. Rocko, Ch.Deadlift, and many more cement this bloodlines legacy. Crossed into the jeep or Rascal made Ch.yellowolf, Ch. Redman, Ch.Mystic, Ch. Bozak, Ch.Doogie, Ch.judy, and many more.

The Bolio-Tombstone line has a thousand dogs on it's own including Gr.Ch.buck (ROM) and a thousand Boyles winners. The Boyleslineis Hank x Redbaby. Redbaby is a Bolio dog and they used Bobby Jr. heavily. I dont care about west coast or east coast. to me, that is silly. There are many dogmen on the East Coast like STP and Captain America , Southern Kennels, Havannah Boys, Strictly Business that have done the deed well for many years, but the West Coast has just as many if not more. I guess you can sum it up with "to each their own" It is my opinion that half redboy-jocko and half Bolio-Tombstone is better than either on their own. But thats just my opinion based on my experience. i LOVE the Hollingsworth dogs, but if given the choice to cross it with Eli or Redboy-Jocko, its not even a choice. I believe the Redboy-Jocko dogs are 10x gamer than the Eli dogs, and the Termite strain of Jocko do punch just as hard as an Eli dog.

I will say this, because when we did it, we traveled all over the country. YOU MAKE YOUR NAME TRAVELING AND SPANKING PEOPLE IN THIER BACKYARD. Thats how we did it. More credibility to those that do it like that hunting down the hard competition than those that stay locally. I applaud Mr.Hollingsworth's "idiot savant" decision to breed to Yellow. I love my dogs . I urge both parties of this argument to take the high road and show leadership given our audience.
+1000 I agree and love both lines. I like the two blended together. That's what I decided to do was take the high road rather than hurl disrespect back and forth . Everybody has skeletons in their closet even people who think they don't.

[creek_bottom]

Here is my input on this beat to death subject. BOTH lines are a great line of dogs. The Bolio-Tombstone blend of dogs crosses great with the Eli line for mouth establishhing a seperate line (Boyles) , and the Redboy-Jocko crossed excellent with Rascal and Honeybunch creating the HArdcore Kennels dogs. Here is my opinion, The best Hollingsworth dog ever as a performer was Gr.Ch.Mayday. he was simply a beast. traveled from Puerto Rico to New York City to South Carolina beating the likes of the Gator Boys, Tant, and Soulman. He was indeed a killing machine. With all respect to Waccamaw, If Big John was as good as Mayday, he certainly didn't travel and beat those big name kennels. That being said....Mayday was half Redboy-Jocko! Indeed he was a Hollingsworth dog, bred by Mr.Hollingsworth himself. That begs the question of ,"If the Hollingsworth line had all it needed, why did he breed to Yellow. In addition to that what other Hollingswoth bitch bred to any dog produced three champions in the same litter?" Its a good question. What I am getting at is that Yellow added value, and Mr.Hollingsworth knew it somehow, and the bulldog world is glad he did. As it pertains to Gameness, I've said before ..both dogs bring it, but I think it's a different kind of gameness. My opinion is that the Bolio-Tombstone dogs are deadgame because of thier stubborness in face of defeat, because of their will and mindset not to lose or be defeated. The Bolio-Tombstone dogs are stubborn sons of bitches. You're not going to make one do anything they dont want to. Their coats are finicky and they are LOUD! Lets just say that the neighbors won't appreciate Gr.Ch.Buck living next door.

The Redboy-Jocko dogs are equally as game, but in "my opinion" it's cause they are just to stupid to quit. It's like a switch flips and they will keep on coming no matter what. Like a chicken with it's head held to the ground. Add to that that my experience with Redboy-Jocko dogs is that they are destructive high strung dogs that will run the chain until they die, destroy their doghouses, uproot tree roots.

Frankly, because of that , If I had to pick one or the other it would be the Hollingsworth line. Smarts trumps Retards. Thank goodness.. I dont have to pick one. Almost all my dogs are half of both. That being said, I own two pure Bolio-Tombstone dogs off Ch.Red Pirate to Miss Blitz. I do not own a pure Redboy-Jocko dog. I got rid of the bitch after the breeding to Bull because she was just too destructive. Even managed to destroy and eat some of a stainless steel bowl. That was the straw that broke the camels back. You guys can choose to go at it repeatedly, but there will be no winners. Gr.Ch.Yellow, Gr.Ch.Rodney, Super Gnat's Boots (4:52) Gr.Ch.john Boy, Ch.Yellowjohn, Ch. Rocko, Ch.Deadlift, and many more cement this bloodlines legacy. Crossed into the jeep or Rascal made Ch.yellowolf, Ch. Redman, Ch.Mystic, Ch. Bozak, Ch.Doogie, Ch.judy, and many more.

The Bolio-Tombstone line has a thousand dogs on it's own including Gr.Ch.buck (ROM) and a thousand Boyles winners. The Boyleslineis Hank x Redbaby. Redbaby is a Bolio dog and they used Bobby Jr. heavily. I dont care about west coast or east coast. to me, that is silly. There are many dogmen on the East Coast like STP and Captain America , Southern Kennels, Havannah Boys, Strictly Business that have done the deed well for many years, but the West Coast has just as many if not more. I guess you can sum it up with "to each their own" It is my opinion that half redboy-jocko and half Bolio-Tombstone is better than either on their own. But thats just my opinion based on my experience. i LOVE the Hollingsworth dogs, but if given the choice to cross it with Eli or Redboy-Jocko, its not even a choice. I believe the Redboy-Jocko dogs are 10x gamer than the Eli dogs, and the Termite strain of Jocko do punch just as hard as an Eli dog.

I will say this, because when we did it, we traveled all over the country. YOU MAKE YOUR NAME TRAVELING AND SPANKING PEOPLE IN THIER BACKYARD. Thats how we did it. More credibility to those that do it like that hunting down the hard competition than those that stay locally. I applaud Mr.Hollingsworth's "idiot savant" decision to breed to Yellow. I love my dogs . I urge both parties of this argument to take the high road and show leadership given our audience.

I agree 110% with what you said and I believe I'm now the one feeding that pure RBJ dog you were speaking of and she is deffinately a hard keeper lmao. I've also just started messing with the bolio stuff and that finicky skin is no joke. That pup off machobuck x blondy is starting to straighten out in the front end I think he's gonna be alright I'll keep you posted. Keep up the good work and hopefully we can get sassy back to you to do that breeding.
Creek Bottom

[Blueprint]

I use to own Sassy's mom Ginger. I sold her to the guy that bred Sassy. Ginger was an easy keeper not much trouble at all.

[Officially Retired]

I know what you mean that is the way I am ,when jack was in Atlanta living with compound kennel he wrote me a $600 bad check .so come Sunday morning I pulled up at their house at 7 am a 6 hr ride for me .this can be verified by Andy Lewis compound kennel .and I came home with the $600 .i have kept this between jack and myself other than compound kennel all these years .he sure was surprised to see me .

Huh? Wow, you make up pure BS.

Verified by Andy Lewis? Are you kidding me?
Andy was the one who told me that bitch he got from you (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) was "a straight killer" ... and it proved to be nothing but pure, made-up, childlike, wanna-be bullshit.
She's the bitch who couldn't see the better side of 5 minutes with two smaller bitches. It was clear she had never been rolled once and had ZERO pit savvy.
Andy actually flipped out and shit himself when my Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879) decimated his bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096). Andy actually asked for a handle ... against my puppy :lol: ... and I refused.
Then he started screaming, "I want a handle, Goddamnit!!" ... over what a 10 month old puppy was doing to his 1-lb bigger bitch :lol:
And you seek "verification" from a chump like that :rolleyes: :embarrassed:

I told Andy he could pick his POS up any time he wanted, but no way in hell was I going to give his bigger, older bitch "a break" from my puppy :lol:

Sonny, the only time you "showed up" was to roll your 8 lb bigger dog into my smaller one, so don't act like you came over as a collector or that I didn't know you'd be there.
Your skinny ass has never been anything but respectful when I have been right there in front of you, so don't act like you're a thug. Take a gander in the mirror :lol:
You know, I have had just about enough of your bullshit. You're a stupid man with some so-so dogs, and you're a GD liar. Everything you have said on here is pure BS.

You want to talk about bullshit, the fact is you stole Little Jack from Trad.
Little Jack won twice, beat a Champion the first time, then won in 1:58 over some Ch Paladin dog Jacobs has (I think).
Then Trad entrusted the dog to you to breed to (you're wanting more of my blood) ... and you claimed he "got stolen."
I mean, I could go on and on with all of the BS you're full of.
In fact, let's start with the quality of Ch Big John's "wins."
Why don't you explain to your lemmings that one of the "wins" was into your cousin (to whom you gave a discard dog)?
Tell everyone how you gave away a discard dog to a relative, and then you turned around and matched into it with Big John :lol:
What did it go, 5 minutes? And you call that a win? :rolleyes:
That's some quality of opposition, Sonny :embarrassed: :lol:

Hell, I could go on and on with your southern-bred bullshit, but that's enough for now.




Like I told way back then jack the breeding was like coffee and water ,my dogs being coffee and yours the water .mix the water with coffee the water gets stronger and the coffee gets weaker ,by the way sassy ran out the woods down here in 2 min

LOL, okay, whatever, Sassy quit in 2 minutes, whatever lie you want to tell.
I have seen fifty minutes out of a prime Sassy, and there is no way in hell any bitch on earth, her size, could put a dent in that powerhouse dog (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178) in an hour, let alone 2 minutes.
Now I can't say what Sassy did over there, but here are the 3 things I distinctly remember about Sassy and her being over there:


1) That she decimated 2 bitches of yours on the face, in fact so badly did she decimate your bitches, that you actually told Weapons of Mass Destruction (EverLast) that you were thinking of running Sassy on a mill, to get her tired enough first, so that she would be "reachable" by your slow, stupid bitches ... since your back-end dogs are tailor-made for my face dogs.

2) The other thing I remember about Sassy was that imbecile cousin of yours, Rivertown Dave, had Sassy and bred her to Yellow John. This idiot leaves Sassy on the chain until the day she's due. Then he comes home late at night and tosses Sassy in the brood pen the very night she's supposed to drop. After she gets tossed into the brood pen, Sassy starts barking and barking all night ... and Dave comes out there and beats the living shit out of her and goes back inside. Sassy starts barking incessantly ... again and again ... and this fucking idiot goes out there and beats the shit out of her again and again ... all night long until the morning time. Well, guess what? It turns out SASSY HAD 2 OF HER PUPS IN THE DIRT THAT NIGHT ... before your fucking idiot cousin came home ... and THAT is why she was barking and barking all night ... SHE WAS SEPARATED FROM HER BABIES AND WANTED TO BE WITH THEM ... and this fucking asshole beats her all night long, over her natural motherly instincts, because he's too stupid to consider this as a possiblity :embarrassed: :angry:

3) After I got Sassy back, she had no muscle tone, and had a chronic vaginal discharge, which required 3 weeks of Baytril to cure.

Now, as far as coffee and water goes, when I bred Screamer to Poncho, I got an all-game litter.
Not a single dog quit in the litter, not a single dog matched off their offspring ever quit.
That is a total of about 15 dogs, with at least 5 going over the 2-hour mark. That's coffee son.

By contrast, when I bred Screamer to Ch Big John, I got 4 curs (2 rank) and 3 game dogs.
Dr Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) quit in :12 to Poncho Jr. male (a 9-10 game litter).
Anthrax (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10136) quit to his half-brother Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=348) in :19
Little Big John quit in 1:30 ... which was at least respectable.
Siren Girl beat a 1xW and then a 4xW, and then quit in an hour, which again was respectable

But that's still 4 CURS sonny ... one of which quit to another Screamer dog, sired by Poncho.
There were ONLY 3 game dogs in that litter of 7 to Big John, Sonny (Kulu, Little Jack, and Wichita).
That's water, son.

Yet, when I bred those dogs BACK to Screamer dogs, I got absolute consistency, NO quits, and TWO DEADGAME wins.
So the "coffee" is coming from my dogs ... which is why your dogs are what I immediately got rid of and away from.
More of my blood = higher gameness/win percentage = more coffee.
These are facts.

And BTW, that Siren Girl (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38493) bitch (Big John x Screamer) was rolled into my Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879) bitch also (Gr Ch Sparky x Screamer), and it was a massacre.
Siren Girl didn't quit on that, and she was a pretty fast and good bitch, but Pantera was a fucken brute, and Siren Girl just did not have the power to deal with her and had to be picked up.




Jack if them dogs got any bad traits it came from your stock after all you said you needed the outcrossing.do you remember a dog named pretty boy ,he came from you some fellas down this way had him lost to Vick .said he was the rankest of all curs .

I never needed an outcross, what I needed was SIZE ...

And look man, Pretty Boy's (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10137) gameness was seen in front of TONS of good dogmen, so just shut up on that, okay?
I can put up with debates and arguments, but will NOT put up with straight lies.
The dog was a bum ... I have always said that ... but he damned sure was no cur.




Jack you keep talking about dog fights ,first of all I hog hunt and sale dogs for hog hunting not dog fighting.now to set you straight on big John and mayday ,big John was like 9 or 10 years old and no teeth .and if you think that is the way to do a dog then you are no dog man either ,and the way you talked to blueprint with a fat dog and you think it is fine to put a 10 year old dog with no teeth up to that stress .you are a idiot .and if these clowns believe all that you say they are idiots to.a man can't believe half what he reads online ,just like you researched stps buck and gainey's jr to find out your research was wrong and. To think my not knowing dumbass had to correct you ha,ha ,and all you could do was blame it on Barney fife a dead man .you just can't stand to be wrong and you can't stand for nobody disagreeing with you either .

Yeah, okay, you got me on ONE point on ONE discussion. LAST YEAR.
I can stand to be wrong, Sonny. I mean, if you recall, I admitted I was wrong there, I conceded JR didn't go into Buck, and I stopped debating.
I didn't call you names. I didn't change the subject. I didn't go on and on about other matters (like you here). When the facts came out, and JR didn't go into Buck, I just said I was wrong. Why don't you have that kind of class?
YOU'RE the imbecile who can't admit you're wrong here. Because you ARE just WRONG that RBJ dogs are "the baddest" ... or that they have "the most kills" ... THEY DON'T.

Yes, I am talking about dog fights as well as matters that happened over 12 years ago, when Victor came onto the board and ran you up a tree. So Big John was 9 or 10 and no teeth, well so was Mayday, retard! As with the 9 year old Haunch, Victor was ready to match his old Mayday dog into your old Big John dog, and you shit yourself and refused. Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526), a legitimately badass dog, killed 6 win a row with no teeth, why couldn't Big John, if he was as bad as you say he was? Were you afraid he didn't have the gameness of Mayday? Victor was confident in his dog, and said he could come to your back yard! You were running your mouth about Big John "killing" Mayday every day on my forum ... and then suddenly you got your chance ... IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD ... What went wrong, Sonny?




Jack is a good talker and writer,but no he doesn't know as much as he thinks .a good talker and a good writer can put up a good front .

I am a good talker, writer, breeder, and authority on dogs. You are an uneducated redneck, who's not good for much besides hunting in the woods and talking about RBJ dogs.
I know more about dogs than you will ever touch, so let's just leave it at that.




Pretty boy was down here ,he was like a baby that got his candy taken away .

He lost game in 1:10 to a Champion, that is not something to be embarrassed about.
He also got his ass kicked by EVERY dog on my yard (Icon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3887), U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540), etc.), but he never committed a turn in his life.



Jack you starting to act Peds online ! You starting to break your rules.
One last thing for me on this subject then I am done with it ,SAbre was not cold ,she was a nightmare to breed .

Actually, you're the one breaking the rules. The rules are to keep things civil and not directly insult others.

The subject was RBJ dogs, and you made the claim that they "killed the most" and "all the good ones" were RBJ dogs.

I tried to stay on topic and directly challenged these outrageous remarks with FACTS ... with DOG NAMES ... with ACTUAL MATCHES where the best RBJ dogs GOT WHIPPED by Hollingsworth dogs, Jeep dogs, Eli/Carver dogs, etc.

You are the one who came here and called me a "liar" and a "fool."

But you're right on one thing: this is turning into a PedOnline shit-fest, and it's probably better to STICK TO THE TOPIC ... so why don't you try doing that FOR A CHANGE Sonny?

I have asked you to name THE BADDEST, MULTI-KILLINGEST dogs in history ... and asked you to tell me how many of them were RBJ in nature.
Please don't tell me about anything other than ACTUAL DOGS.
Please don't have one of your icustomers come on here and tell me their dogs are "doing well for themselves," as if that has the first flippin' thing to do with ACTUAL MATCHES or THE BADDEST dogs ever.

This database has nearly 40,000 dogs in it now. Of all kinds of different bloodlines. So how to prove who-is-what is really rather simple :idea:
Simply go to the Search Engine (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_search.php) and plug-in 5xWs only. You'll see several RBJ dogs but DOZENS MORE ELI/CARVER DOGS.

But then raise the bar to 6xW ... then 7xW ... then 8xW ... and guess what? NOTHING.
With every "upgrade," the RBJ dogs disappear.
But you will still see a bunch of Eli, Eli/Carver, and Jeep/Rascal dogs ... so what do you think that means, Sonny?

It means that you don't know what you're talking about. It means your original claims are wrong.
(BTW: I also don't see any of yours past 3 wins ... but there are a boatload of mine ;) )

Speaking of coffee, why don't you wake up and smell some, Sonny?:
Eli/Carver crosses are the winningest, and the baddest dogs on earth. Not RBJ. :coffee:
This is a matter of FACT, not "opinion." I was just trying to correct you, not get into an insult-fest.

So unless you have FACTS to the contrary, admit YOU WERE WRONG ... and sit down and shut up.

There is nothing to debate; there is no reason to insult each other any further.

Jack

[BRICKFACE]

if I was a MOD I would have locked this thread b4 it turned this ugly...smh

[Officially Retired]

if I was a MOD I would have locked this thread b4 it turned this ugly...smh


Well, sometimes ugly is necessary.

Sorry about that, if it offends some people, but when a man stands up and screams something's "the best" he should at least have THE FACTS to back it up.

The whole point of this resource, Search Engine (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_search.php), and Statistics Page (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_statistics_dogs.php), is to separate FACTS from "claims" ...

Sonny couldn't stick to the facts.
Again, all you gotta do is plug-in 5xW on the search engine ... then raise the bar to 6xW ... then 7xW ... then 8xW ... and watch those RBJ dogs disappear off the map ... while the Eli, Eli/Carver and a few others remain on there. Again, this database has nearly 40,000 dogs in it now, and the facts are right there to be seen as to WHICH dogs are the baddest of the bad.

All Sonny had to do is 1) roll out that list I asked him for, or 2) admit such a list was puny compared to other crosses, retract his statements, and admit he was wrong.

Yeah, RBJ dogs are a good, solid line ... but they're NOT the killingest.

I was able to admit Sonny was right on another topic last year (which moment he always tries to re-live), but the FACTS are against him here.
Unfortunately, Sonny does not have the ability to a) admit he was wrong or b) shut up.
Instead, he wants to call me a "liar" (when I have listed actual facts and actual dogs), and a "fool" (even though the facts are against him, not me).

I agree, we should be able to have a civil dialogue about dog quality.
Normally, intelligent, honest people just roll-out the facts, compare them, and let the chips fall where they may.

I have been trying to do this all along, produce FACTS for an interesting debate, and Sonny keeps changing the subject to something else.
Until finally he just wants to "go there," call names, and dredge-up that past.
But I am down for that too, as (once again) the facts are with me, not him.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

It's actually still a debate. Nobody threatening lives or family.. it's two men who have a string opinion on the subject. I just remembered something Cuban missing link once told me. He said, " Those redboy jocko dogs are gaaaame. But just add a quarter Hollingsworth, and they are deadgame. " I think that sums it up.

[Officially Retired]

A succinct summation.

[waccamaw]

Huh? Wow, you make up pure BS.

Verified by Andy Lewis? Are you kidding me?
Andy was the one who told me that bitch he got from you (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096) was "a straight killer" ... and it proved to be nothing but pure, made-up, childlike, wanna-be bullshit.
She's the bitch who couldn't see the better side of 5 minutes with two smaller bitches. It was clear she had never been rolled once and had ZERO pit savvy.
Andy actually flipped out and shit himself when my Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879) decimated his bitch (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38096). Andy actually asked for a handle ... against my puppy :lol: ... and I refused.
Then he started screaming, "I want a handle, Goddamnit!!" ... over what a 10 month old puppy was doing to his 1-lb bigger bitch :lol:
And you seek "verification" from a chump like that :rolleyes: :embarrassed:

I told Andy he could pick his POS up any time he wanted, but no way in hell was I going to give his bigger, older bitch "a break" from my puppy :lol:

Sonny, the only time you "showed up" was to roll your 8 lb bigger dog into my smaller one, so don't act like you came over as a collector or that I didn't know you'd be there.
Your skinny ass has never been anything but respectful when I have been right there in front of you, so don't act like you're a thug. Take a gander in the mirror :lol:
You know, I have had just about enough of your bullshit. You're a stupid man with some so-so dogs, and you're a GD liar. Everything you have said on here is pure BS.

You want to talk about bullshit, the fact is you stole Little Jack from Trad.
Little Jack won twice, beat a Champion the first time, then won in 1:58 over some Ch Paladin dog Jacobs has (I think).
Then Trad entrusted the dog to you to breed to (you're wanting more of my blood) ... and you claimed he "got stolen."
I mean, I could go on and on with all of the BS you're full of.
In fact, let's start with the quality of Ch Big John's "wins."
Why don't you explain to your lemmings that one of the "wins" was into your cousin (to whom you gave a discard dog)?
Tell everyone how you gave away a discard dog to a relative, and then you turned around and matched into it with Big John :lol:
What did it go, 5 minutes? And you call that a win? :rolleyes:
That's some quality of opposition, Sonny :embarrassed: :lol:

Hell, I could go on and on with your southern-bred bullshit, but that's enough for now.





LOL, okay, whatever, Sassy quit in 2 minutes, whatever lie you want to tell.
I have seen fifty minutes out of a prime Sassy, and there is no way in hell any bitch on earth, her size, could put a dent in that powerhouse dog (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=178) in an hour, let alone 2 minutes.
Now I can't say what Sassy did over there, but here are the 3 things I distinctly remember about Sassy and her being over there:


1) That she decimated 2 bitches of yours on the face, in fact so badly did she decimate your bitches, that you actually told Weapons of Mass Destruction (EverLast) that you were thinking of running Sassy on a mill, to get her tired enough first, so that she would be "reachable" by your slow, stupid bitches ... since your back-end dogs are tailor-made for my face dogs.

2) The other thing I remember about Sassy was that imbecile cousin of yours, Rivertown Dave, had Sassy and bred her to Yellow John. This idiot leaves Sassy on the chain until the day she's due. Then he comes home late at night and tosses Sassy in the brood pen the very night she's supposed to drop. After she gets tossed into the brood pen, Sassy starts barking and barking all night ... and Dave comes out there and beats the living shit out of her and goes back inside. Sassy starts barking incessantly ... again and again ... and this fucking idiot goes out there and beats the shit out of her again and again ... all night long until the morning time. Well, guess what? It turns out SASSY HAD 2 OF HER PUPS IN THE DIRT THAT NIGHT ... before your fucking idiot cousin came home ... and THAT is why she was barking and barking all night ... SHE WAS SEPARATED FROM HER BABIES AND WANTED TO BE WITH THEM ... and this fucking asshole beats her all night long, over her natural motherly instincts, because he's too stupid to consider this as a possiblity :embarrassed: :angry:

3) After I got Sassy back, she had no muscle tone, and had a chronic vaginal discharge, which required 3 weeks of Baytril to cure.

Now, as far as coffee and water goes, when I bred Screamer to Poncho, I got an all-game litter.
Not a single dog quit in the litter, not a single dog matched off their offspring ever quit.
That is a total of about 15 dogs, with at least 5 going over the 2-hour mark. That's coffee son.

By contrast, when I bred Screamer to Ch Big John, I got 4 curs (2 rank) and 3 game dogs.
Dr Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) quit in :12 to Poncho Jr. male (a 9-10 game litter).
Anthrax (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10136) quit to his half-brother Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=348) in :19
Little Big John quit in 1:30 ... which was at least respectable.
Siren Girl beat a 1xW and then a 4xW, and then quit in an hour, which again was respectable

But that's still 4 CURS sonny ... one of which quit to another Screamer dog, sired by Poncho.
There were ONLY 3 game dogs in that litter of 7 to Big John, Sonny (Kulu, Little Jack, and Wichita).
That's water, son.

Yet, when I bred those dogs BACK to Screamer dogs, I got absolute consistency, NO quits, and TWO DEADGAME wins.
So the "coffee" is coming from my dogs ... which is why your dogs are what I immediately got rid of and away from.
More of my blood = higher gameness/win percentage = more coffee.
These are facts.

And BTW, that Siren Girl (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38493) bitch (Big John x Screamer) was rolled into my Pantera (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10879) bitch also (Gr Ch Sparky x Screamer), and it was a massacre.
Siren Girl didn't quit on that, and she was a pretty fast and good bitch, but Pantera was a fucken brute, and Siren Girl just did not have the power to deal with her and had to be picked up.





I never needed an outcross, what I needed was SIZE ...

And look man, Pretty Boy's (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10137) gameness was seen in front of TONS of good dogmen, so just shut up on that, okay?
I can put up with debates and arguments, but will NOT put up with straight lies.
The dog was a bum ... I have always said that ... but he damned sure was no cur.





Yeah, okay, you got me on ONE point on ONE discussion. LAST YEAR.
I can stand to be wrong, Sonny. I mean, if you recall, I admitted I was wrong on JR going into Buck and stopped debating.
I didn't call you names. I didn't change the subject. I didn't go on and on about other matters (like you here). When the facts came out, and JR didn't go into Buck, I just said I was wrong. Why don't you have that kind of class?
YOU'RE the imbecile who can't admit you're wrong here. Because you ARE just WRONG that RBJ dogs are "the baddest" ... or that they have "the most kills" ... THEY DON'T.

Yes, I am talking about dog fights as well as matters that happened over 12 years ago, when Victor came onto the board and ran you up a tree. So Big John was 9 or 10 and no teeth, well so was Mayday retard. Like the 9 year old Haunch, Victor was ready to match his old dog into your old dog, and you shit yourself and refused. Gr Ch Zukill (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7526), a legitimately badass dog, killed 6 win a row with no teeth, why couldn't Big John, if he was as bad as you say he was? Were you afraid he didn't have the gameness of Mayday? Victor was confident in his dog, and said he could come to your back yard! You were running your mouth about Big John "killing" Mayday ... and then you got your chance ... IN YOUR OWN BACK YARD ... What went wrong, Sonny?





I am a good talker, writer, breeder, and authority on dogs. You are an uneducated redneck, who's not good for much besides hunting in the woods and talking about RBJ dogs.
I know more about dogs than you will ever touch, so let's just leave it at that.





He lost game in 1:10 to a Champion, that is not something to be embarrassed about.
He also got his ass kicked by EVERY dog on my yard (Icon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3887), U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540), etc.), but he never committed a turn in his life.




Actually, you're the one breaking the rules. The subject was RBJ dogs, and you made the claim that they "killed the most" and "all the good ones" were RBJ dogs.

I tried to stay on topic and directly challenged these outrageous remarks with FACTS ... with DOG NAMES ... with ACTUAL MATCHES where the best RBJ dogs GOT WHIPPED by Hollingsworth dogs, Jeep dogs, Eli/Carver dogs, etc.

You are the one who came here and called me a liar and a fool. Sorry, Sonny, you're the liar and the fool.

But you're right on one thing: this is turning into a PedOnline shit-fest, and it's probably better to STICK TO THE TOPIC ... so why don't you try doing that FOR A CHANGE Sonny?

I have asked you to name THE BADDEST, MULTI-KILLINGEST dogs in history ... and asked you to tell me how many of them were RBJ in nature.
Please don't tell me about anything other than ACTUAL DOGS. Please don't have one of your idiot-customers come on here and tell me their dogs are "doing well for themselves," as if that has the first flippin' thing to do with ACTUAL MATCHES or THE BADDEST dogs ever.

This database has nearly 40,000 dogs in it now. Of all kinds of different bloodlines. Go to the Search Engine (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_search.php) and plug-in 5xWs only. You'll see several RBJ dogs but DOZENS MORE ELI/CARVER DOGS.

But then raise the bar to 6xW ... then 7xW ... then 8xW ... and guess what? NOTHING.
With every "upgrade," the RBJ dogs disappear.
But you will still see a bunch of Eli, Eli/Carver, and Jeep/Rascal dogs ... so what do you think that means, Sonny?

That you don't know what you're talking about.
(I also don't see any of yours past 3 wins ... but there are a boatload of mine ;) )

Speaking of coffee, why don't you wake up and smell some, Sonny?: Eli/Carver type dogs are the winningest, and the baddest dogs on earth. Not RBJ. :coffee:
This is a matter of FACT, not "opinion." I was just trying to correct you, not get into an insult-fest.

So unless you have FACTS to the contrary, admit YOU WERE WRONG ... and sit down and shut up.

There is nothing to debate; there is no reason to insult each other any further.

Jack

The truth hurts don't it jack ,you do know Edgar Allen Poe was a crazy writer jack kinda had hallucinations from all that dope ,that's when he did his writing ,(hint) jack .get off that shit !!!!!!!!!! You keep coming up with shit you don't know ,nothing you ever say is from what you have seen but what you have heard and that is the truth and you know it ,and you did write me a bad check and I did go get it !

[waccamaw]

The truth hurts don't it jack ,you do know Edgar Allen Poe was a crazy writer jack kinda had hallucinations from all that dope ,that's when he did his writing ,(hint) jack .get off that shit !!!!!!!!!! You keep coming up with shit you don't know ,nothing you ever say is from what you have seen but what you have heard and that is the truth and you know it ,and you did write me a bad check and I did go get it !

I am gonna tell you what you need to research ,and that is the bible ,the HOLY BIBLE,being you don't believe in god ,that is probably your problem !

[Officially Retired]

The truth hurts don't it jack ,you do know Edgar Allen Poe was a crazy writer jack kinda had hallucinations from all that dope ,that's when he did his writing ,(hint) jack .get off that shit !!!!!!!!!! You keep coming up with shit you don't know ,nothing you ever say is from what you have seen but what you have heard and that is the truth and you know it ,and you did write me a bad check and I did go get it !

I am not hurt; I don't do dope.

Is is possible for you to stick to the facts without losing it?

I write clearly and precisely, and the only truths that have been told have come from my keyboard.




I am gonna tell you what you need to research ,and that is the bible ,the HOLY BIBLE,being you don't believe in god ,that is probably your problem !

Sonny. Stick to the topic.

Please stop screaming about The Bible and hallucinations.

Go do a search on those multi-winning dogs and tell me what percentages of 7xW (and greater) are RBJ ... and what percentage are some kind of Eli- Eli/Carver cross?

Can you do that without losing it, Sonny?

Jack

[Officially Retired]

By the way, Sonny, how many of your dogs have won more than 3 "hog hunts" in 20 years of breeding dogs?

If yours are "the baddest," and have "everything," shouldn't they have mustered-up more than 3 wins by now after 2 decades?

Especially since most of these so-called shows are in your own backyard ...

Jack

[waccamaw]

Jack u know I sold little jack to trad.that is a flat out lie .

[Officially Retired]

And Trad told me he had him on your yard and you said the dog "got stolen" ...

Look, let's just drop the past BS and concentrate on the topic.

How many 4x, 5x, and 6x+ winners have come from ANY of your dogs (crosses, etc.) in 20 years of running "the killingest" bloodline on earth?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Jack

[waccamaw]

By the way, Sonny, how many of your dogs have won more than 3 fights in 20 years of breeding dogs?

If yours are "the baddest," and have "everything," shouldn't they have mustered-up more than 3 wins by now after 2 decades?

Especially since most of these so-called shows are in your own backyard ...

Jack

Jack I don't fight dogs ,but if I did I bet they could take yours!!!and your so called one match you had you lost .then you based your yard on a loser .jack you are still a legend in your on mind ,and I can all ways tell how green a man is when he says he has a poncho dog ,it's like they get blues first then poncho vise grip dogs then the real ones !

[waccamaw]

And Trad told me he had him on your yard and you said the dog "got stolen" ...

Look, let's just drop the past BS and concentrate on the topic.

How many 4x, 5x, and 6x+ winners have come from ANY of your dogs (crosses, etc.) in 20 years of running "the killingest" bloodline on earth?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Jack
Now why would I keep his dog on my yard when he has a nice place in fact he had two places .

[waccamaw]

I am not hurt; I don't do dope.

Is is possible for you to stick to the facts without losing it?

I write clearly and precisely, and the only truths that have been told have come from my keyboard.





Sonny. Stick to the topic.

Please stop screaming about The Bible and hallucinations.

Go do a search on those multi-winning dogs and tell me what percentages of 7xW (and greater) are RBJ ... and what percentage are some kind of Eli- Eli/Carver cross?

Can you do that without losing it, Sonny?



JackI have not lost it ,you put to much trust in your computer ,now I wonder who put all these winners in the computer .

[waccamaw]

Jack if you think I am going to put on the internet that I have fought my dogs and won ex amount of times you are crazy ! Like I said I don't fight dogs nor sale dogs to fight!!

[EWO]

I believe Evolution hit one out of the park. The subject is beat to death but a great topic and a great series of posts, and I doubt either group will waiver. One side is too stubborn to quit and the other is too dumb stop. Maybe I am talking about the dogs, maybe I am not. LOL.

Good topic. Great response Evolution. And since we are beating the proverbial dead horse, I still say it was a way cool statement, regardless of which mindset proves to be true. EWO

[Officially Retired]

Jack I don't fight dogs ,but if I did I bet they could take yours!!!and your so called one match you had you lost .then you based your yard on a loser .jack you are still a legend in your on mind ,and I can all ways tell how green a man is when he says he has a poncho dog ,it's like they get blues first then poncho vise grip dogs then the real ones !

Yeah, okay, blues then my dogs, whatever :rolleyes:
You're just getting childish and showing your true colors: lame.

Sonny, my dogs have won actual contests on international conventions, yours haven't.
I have never heard of a Waccamaw dog facing, or being used by, a top competitor in the dogs.
I have never seen a single Waccamaw Champion who actually had a bona-fide match into a bona-fide Champion. EVER.
The only place your "Champions" win is in your back yard. The highest actual rank I have seen from a customer of yours is a 2xW.

You say you "would never" put one of your Champions online, yet you've added several of them (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_statistics_userdogs.php?user_id=115).
What is glaringly missing is ANY serious multi-winning dogs, either from you directly, or from any cross ever being made with any dog from you :idea:
They are all Champions known only to you, and have never faced any known Champion "out there."
So why no SERIOUS multi-winners out of your yard then? In 20 years. I mean, if they're the "killingest."

Seriously, what legit, champion-versus-champion match has one of your dog EVER had? I mean, EVER?
I can name you MULTIPLE such contests involving mine, involving some of the best dogmen on the planet.

So, as far as I can tell, you're the one surrounded by green guys. I've got some pretty well-known folks who have used my dogs.
In fact, as far as green goes, you're here on my board, are you not? If I only have green people following me, how green are you then to be here?

Sonny, you may recall that I am the guy who put you on the map when I ran an article about you in my mag back in 1999. Before that, it was Wacca-who?
My dogs have won more titles, more matches, more trophies, in more states, in more countries, and they have beaten bigger names than yours ever have or ever will.

But this has nothing to do with the subject.

Look I am tired of insulting you, and being insulted by you, okay Sonny?

So let's see if we can drop the childish bullshit.
I have asked you multiple times to please stay on the topic, and this is the last time I am asking.
I am not going to respond to any more crap.

So STAY ON POINT. No personal insults. From me or from you.

Let's just stick to FACTS or give admission that the facts don't exist. Can we do that?

What dog from your program has ever beaten a legitimate, known Champion in over 20 years of breeding dogs?
What dog from your program, or from any cross of any bloodline into your program, has EVER won more than 3 hunts?
Run a Search on 7x winners, out of 40,000 dogs here, and tell me how many of them (and beyond) are RBJ ... and how many are some kind of Eli/Carver cross?

I will be happy to answer those questions myself.

Can you answer these questions happily as well?

Jack

[Pit Bull Committed]

Now let me tell you the truth. RBJ Dogs game as can be. Truth be told Red boy dogs are as dumb as they come, Yellow Dogs as smart as they come but who really wants a ear sucker. Mayday dogs can bite and balanced out and are all round athletes. Redboy dogs by themselves are not such a good line. Yellow dogs and may dogs. Basically same shit. Ear suckers and fancy foot work. This is what Great matches are made of. Going 3-4 hours, spectacular and heart moving but truth be told this is not what wins shows. In my personal Opinion from what i have seen in my country. Nothing compares with The Eli Line. Even the frisco/Tudor/Chinaman Line what i dislike wins like you cant beleive. Eli/Bolio is a unstoppable combination what produce dogs of such caliber they will shock ur socks of. My prefrence of the eli strain comes from the The mexican strain of Enrico Morfine dogs. i find that works with bolio the best and produce dogs what RBJ just cant. Thats my own personal opinion and i still run RBJ dogs but the truth is RBJ are not best dogs in terms of campaigning today. They work as a nice out cross and add some key attributes i find if u keep there blood at 25% or less in a breeding u will be taking there best atributes while allowing for less negavtives.
:appl:
Well said! I agree!!!

[evolutionkennels]

I believe Evolution hit one out of the park. The subject is beat to death but a great topic and a great series of posts, and I doubt either group will waiver. One side is too stubborn to quit and the other is too dumb stop. Maybe I am talking about the dogs, maybe I am not. LOL.

Good topic. Great response Evolution. And since we are beating the proverbial dead horse, I still say it was a way cool statement, regardless of which mindset proves to be true. EWO



What a pun on words.. can't believe I didn't think of it. I'm officially an ewo fan.

[Officially Retired]

I've always been an EWO fan :lol:

[CYJ]

I am a EWO fan also Ca. Jack, and all these other fellows that put up with me. EWO appears to be a dog man going places. Have enjoyed our personnel chats immensely.

[Officially Retired]

Now let me tell you the truth. RBJ Dogs game as can be. Truth be told Red boy dogs are as dumb as they come, Yellow Dogs as smart as they come but who really wants a ear sucker. Mayday dogs can bite and balanced out and are all round athletes. Redboy dogs by themselves are not such a good line. Yellow dogs and may dogs. Basically same shit. Ear suckers and fancy foot work. This is what Great matches are made of. Going 3-4 hours, spectacular and heart moving but truth be told this is not what wins shows. In my personal Opinion from what i have seen in my country. Nothing compares with The Eli Line. Even the frisco/Tudor/Chinaman Line what i dislike wins like you cant beleive. Eli/Bolio is a unstoppable combination what produce dogs of such caliber they will shock ur socks of. My prefrence of the eli strain comes from the The mexican strain of Enrico Morfine dogs. i find that works with bolio the best and produce dogs what RBJ just cant. Thats my own personal opinion and i still run RBJ dogs but the truth is RBJ are not best dogs in terms of campaigning today. They work as a nice out cross and add some key attributes i find if u keep there blood at 25% or less in a breeding u will be taking there best atributes while allowing for less negavtives.

:appl:
Well said! I agree!!!

I basically agree with your thinking.

As I mentioned, the winningest, baddest dogs from my line were mostly with Eli/Chinaman influence.

The Poncho/Mayday dogs I had were TANKS ... VERY solid dogs that BEAT two Grand Champions ... with at least 50 wins and 15 Champions produced ... and yet ONLY ONE made it to a 5xW.

That one dog that made it to a 5xW was a very badass, finishing bitch Nastyville's Gr Ch Ms. Serious (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10886) ... and she had a touch of Eli in her through Wynn's Lina (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10889).

By all accounts, Gr Ch Ms. Serious was a deadly animal. The longest she went was :40 and that was pushing 2 lb into a Champion. Every other fight was a rout. I don't know if it's true or not, but Nastyville told me he collected a $6K forfeit from Cane Valley Kennels on his Gr Ch Baby Gracie (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4175) bitch (this is said with respect to CVK, because I very much do respect him, but this is what I was told). I sure would have loved to have seen that one come off ...

But, at any rate, there have been 15 to 20 five-time winners + involving crosses with my blood ... and, I believe, Nastyville's Gr Ch Ms. Serious is one of only two that have anything to do with RBJ blood.
The other RBJ cross that produced a Grand Champion was Black Flag Kennels' Gr Ch Red, DOY (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33402), but this also had Eli/ and Boyles blood in it.

Every other dog of my line that became more than a 5xW I don't believe had a drop of the RBJ blood in it.
Again, in all of history, there are maybe 1 or 2 RBJ dogs that have gone beyond 6x winners ... but MULTIPLE Eli/Carver dogs have done so.

Jack

PS: This really could become an interesting topic for discussion, if everyone can just stick to facts and can 1) stop baseless cheerleading claims, and 2) stop the insults. We might start getting some productive ideas generated, actually.

[Officially Retired]

I am a EWO fan also Ca. Jack, and all these other fellows that put up with me. EWO appears to be a dog man going places. Have enjoyed our personnel chats immensely.

LOL, I am a fan of you both :hatsoff:

[Pit Bull Committed]

if I was a MOD I would have locked this thread b4 it turned this ugly...smh
I don't see the problem in this thread. Things just got more interesting. Keep it going Jack! & PLEASE do not delete any posts! These are great posts about the breed. :) Thanks guys!

[Blueprint]

We have stuff coming down from that blood and it's been super. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37962 Heavy heavy mouth. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37961 and this bitch we have also http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37960 They are 9yrs old.

[Officially Retired]

if I was a MOD I would have locked this thread b4 it turned this ugly...smh
I don't see the problem in this thread. Things just got more interesting. Keep it going Jack! & PLEASE do not delete any posts! These are great posts about the breed. :) Thanks guys!

Sometimes you have to shake the tree to get the apples :)

[Officially Retired]

We have stuff coming down from that blood and it's been super. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=37962

Very interesting ... and very similar indeed.

Would be an exciting candidate to cross with Coca-Rilla.

I was always too scared to lose my percentages with some of that stuff, but in retrospect (and with the aid of these research tools), you can start to see a pattern, and I wish I would have more.

Some of those 50% crosses were phenomenal ... some not so ... but a dab of it can really make all the difference in the world, so good luck.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Interesting ... searching the pedigrees ... the winningest Redboy cross ever had not a drop of Jocko:

Jacobs' Gr Ch Assassin II (10xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=12415)

[Officially Retired]

Here are some great, pure Bolio/Carver-type dogs ... Grand Champions of Grand Champions ... NO Eli ... NO RBJ ... no real cross needed.

Meaddor's Gr Ch MelonHead (14xW, 1xL) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=27180)
Ch Robert T (9xW, 1xL) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9965)
Color Bros' Gr Ch Chance (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38434)
Abraham's Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1919)
S.T.P.'s Gr Ch Buck (7xW, POR, ROM) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=346)

These are some of the great dogs I could find, with NO RBJ in there.

The list of Grand Champions over 7 wins with ELI blood in them is OFF THE CHARTS, mostly Eli/Carver, which of course includes Chinaman dogs and Boyles dogs.
There simply is no question that Eli dogs produce the winningest/baddest dogs out there. (Doesn't mean they're game, or in high-percentage, but they're BAD.)

The winningest RBJ dog, of course, was Gr Ch Barracuda (9xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=372), but again he needed 1/4 Bolio/Tombstone to get there.

There simply ARE NO pure RBJ Grand Champions with more than 6 wins :idea:
(If I am wrong, please show them to me.)

Yet there ARE Bolio/Carver dogs with this many wins ;)
This means pure Carver/Bolio dogs have managed to win 7, 8, 9, and 14 wins withOUT RBJ ... whereas RBJ dogs CAN'T win that many times without Bolio/Tombstone blood in there :idea:

Interestingly, the winningest Redboy dogs of all time (7x, 8x, 10x) actually have NO JOCKO ... they're Redboy/Carver, Redboy/Frisco, Redboy/Eli ... and Redboy/Loposay. (Only 4 dogs.)
So, AGAIN, the Eli/Carver has to be in there :idea:
This is especially interesting because RBJ gets BRED MORE than all the other RB combos, and yet can't produce THE baddest dogs.

The MAJORITY of the multi-winningest dogs are basically Eli/Carver or Eli/Bolio (including Boyles/Chinaman) ... or straight Eli.

Just some preliminary findings using the Search Feature (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_search.php) :-bd

Jack

PS: I ignore mentioning old, old-time dogs and speak only of more modern dogs.

[bamaman]

I believe Jocko was down from the Fitzwater Goldie ,Dibo cross...And we all know who Goldie was..Anyway jmo and some very nice reading here.

[Officially Retired]

There was definitely some Dibo in Ch Jocko (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=385), but there was less than 5% Goldie.

[Officially Retired]

A little more history ...

As for the claim of Jocko "adding mouth" ... here are some more facts:

Jocko's sister Ch Apples (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=424) was bit down by the Eli/Loposay-bred Gr Ch Molly Bee (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6117) ... while their brother Ch Argo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6464) was whipped by the Eli/Carver/Clouse-bred Ch Bumper (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3473).

So, hey, hats off to Ch Jocko and his littermates.
Three Champions in one litter is something we should all take our hats off to.

But, when push comes to shove, and when Champions-meet-Champions, they ALL got/get knocked off by the wayside by Eli and Eli/Carver dogs. Same with Nico, same with Zinc, etc.

The title of "Baddest" and "Best" is elusive ... and there is no shame in winning 1, 2, and 3 good solid shows.
That's all that can be asked of most dogs, and doing this is a fine accomplishment. Even losing game is an accomplishment.

Still, historically-speaking, and as a matter of ongoing strategy, the great thing about a resource like this, the input of old-timers, and the ability to crunch numbers and quantify statistics ... is we can start to see patterns forming folks ... and, as the elevation gets higher, we need to re-think some of the claims (as well as our own beliefs) as to which way we want to go in our breeding programs, if we truly want "the baddest" and "the best."

Wish I had this resource available 20 years ago :idea:

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Sandman won 11 and was hooked for 12 when he keeled over on the chain. Devastating animal touch of rbj ..through ch.poncho son of boots.

http://www.machobuck.com/Machobear%20II%20X%20Ch.LC.htm

Sandman was littermate to ch.lc.

Now... From that breeding to bear... There is 5 that will come out this fall. one named demon is the best they've seen in Arkansas and north texas.

[Officially Retired]

Touch would be a good word, as it's only 6%.

Here is the pedigree of Gr Ch Sandman, on this database, so we can all see/assess it properly:


Shane's Gr Ch Sandman (11xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38508)

Looks like there's at least 50% Bolio/Carver in there through Walker's TBoy/Gabe/BBRed.

Not to mention the 38% Virgil.

Carver and Bolio dogs have repeatedly produced 7-14x winners with NO RBJ in them.

The thing I am trying to stress is that RBJ dogs can't get there with no Eli/Carver in them.

The dog you posted, if he won 11x, is essentially just another multi-winning Carver cross (50%), with 38% Virgil, and with only a touch of RBJ (6%).

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

Touch would be a good word, as it's only 6%.

Looks like there's at least 50% Bolio/Carver in there through Walker's TBoy/Gabe/BBRed.

Not to mention the 38% Virgil.

Carver and Bolio dogs have repeatedly produced 7-14x winners with NO RBJ in them.

The thing I am trying to stress is that RBJ dogs can't get there with no Eli/Carver in them.

The dog you posted, if he won 11x, is just another multi-winning Carver cross (50%), with 38% Virgil, and with only a touch of RBJ (6%).

Jack

Preaching to the choir as all my stuff is half Bolio tombstone. That dog came to mind when you said that more than 5x have no rbj whatsoever.. given my propensity to debate .. I had to find an 11x with some in there, even if it was a touch. :). And he was the real deal. Downtown shaped him for his last one.

[Officially Retired]

LMAO, okay, gotcha :)

BTW, I just edited my post as added the Sandman dog to the database.

It will be interesting to see how this works for you!

[evolutionkennels]

LMAO, okay, gotcha :)

BTW, I just edited my post as added the Sandman dog to the database.

It will be interesting to see how this works for you!



They aren't mine, I wish they were

[Officially Retired]

Here is another interesting anecdote, regarding dog quality, and bloodline superiority:

Right now, I am going back-and-forth with Fat Bill on the subject of Holligsworth's Riot versus Ch Zabo.

This touches on the gameness of RBJ dogs versus Hollingsworth dogs ... as well as multi-winning capability.

Fat Bill matched directly into both Fletcher Chavis and into Hollingsworth/Butch Davis with his 4xW Ch Zabo.

Fletcher Chavis' pure RBJ dog, in his hands directly, was snuffed and quit in a mere :22. (I am trying to get the ped now.)
Meanwhile the 100% pure Hollingsworth's Riot (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=17156) went nearly 6x that long, finally losing in 2:02, but Riot killed Zabo too.

BUT, here again, ultimately the Eli/Carver dog Ch Zabo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38514) won and brought home the money ...

Some interesting patterns here, folks :idea:

Jack

[skipper]

This is another pretty legendary dog http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=922

[Officially Retired]

Agreed.

If I bothered to list all of the Eli/Carver-type dogs, that have won 7 (or more) fights, it would DWARF the stats of any other cross made.

And the legendary Art is just the tip of the Iceberg ... not to mention he's the sire of the dog who whipped Jocko's 4xW brother Ch Argo :)

[skipper]

Yard is full of eli carver dogs. :)

[evolutionkennels]

Next topic please.... Close this one down.