View Full Version : The Lemm Keep
Who has used this keep specifically? Results? What winning dogs were kept this way?
Any knowledgeable or experienced posts are appreciated. I am neither for it or against it. It came up in a recent conversation. I use some of the principles but have never worked a dog solely based on the Lemm plan. EWO
Officially Retired
05-29-2014, 06:08 AM
IMO, the whole idea of "free conditioning" is counter-intuitive to what a dog actually does in a fight.
Resistance training, with periodic breaks, and periodic all-out efforts, is more in line with the reality of what dogs are actually doing in a match.
A fight is NOT just "pure cardio," with zero resistance; in fact a fight is quite the opposite.
There is another force of equal weight resisting your dog's efforts (and requiring your dog to put up a resistance to), for which muscular conditioning is absolutely needed.
Jack
Bolioman
05-29-2014, 07:02 AM
I knew some guys that used it in my area, some had success with it, others did'NT. I noticed that in some of the hog hunts compared to previous hunts with the same dog, they looked weaker in my opinion. I believe part of it was that at the time a lot of people bought into the free conditioning method and lost focus on strength training and actual endurance work, in previous hunts these guys used a lot of hand walking a little weight pulling and basically tossed a ball back in fourth allowing the dog to open up in sprints and at the same working those fast twitching muscles. I am in no way saying it wasn't a good keep just my observation.
Agreed. I saw one recently and with this free conditioning keep the dog looked weak. I can't say it was followed to the letter, or whether it was applied correctly, but the dog looked weak to me. I saw him in the first and he was a different dog. The first time he won and his keep helped him but the second I feel like he won in spite of the work put in.
I have never personally used it myself, nor have I ever known anyone that did. I watched a lot of the video and listened to the reasons but I just can't see coming in as a 'one trick pony'. I was wondering if anyone had ever used it with any success. EWO
IMO, the whole idea of "free conditioning" is counter-intuitive to what a dog actually does in a fight.
Resistance training, with periodic breaks, and periodic all-out efforts, is more in line with the reality of what dogs are actually doing in a match.
A fight is NOT just "pure cardio," with zero resistance; in fact a fight is quite the opposite.
There is another force of equal weight resisting your dog's efforts (and requiring your dog to put up a resistance to), for which muscular conditioning is absolutely needed.
Jack
CrazyRed
05-30-2014, 06:31 AM
A friend of mines used this keep for a while, he was down in the South part and thought it would be better Keep to use as opposed when he lived up north. He always had 3 parts of his yard, he ran Jeep/Sorrells and also ran heavy Eli dogs and last part of his yard he used some Snooty stuff that he tested and kept to breed into his other dogs. No lie we talked about this very keep about a month ago, he said the keep was great with his Jeep/Sorrells dogs but he lost all the time with his Eli dogs on this keep. Interesting his Jeep/Sorrells dogs were head dogs who just stayed out front riding the head with minimal contact and his Eli dogs were rough hard punching wrestlers. The keep was all cardio and took the strength from the dogs. I know they say every keep is different for every dog but this was experience of one man who used this keep as his primary for a few years.
evolutionkennels
05-30-2014, 09:57 AM
IMO, the whole idea of "free conditioning" is counter-intuitive to what a dog actually does in a fight.
Resistance training, with periodic breaks, and periodic all-out efforts, is more in line with the reality of what dogs are actually doing in a match.
A fight is NOT just "pure cardio," with zero resistance; in fact a fight is quite the opposite.
There is another force of equal weight resisting your dog's efforts (and requiring your dog to put up a resistance to), for which muscular conditioning is absolutely needed.
Jack
Hence, the jenny that let's the dog work on the Hyde as he runs or walks and shakes with a counterweight on the opposite side for resistance
The thing I saw in the Lemm keep from the video. Was if you had one of those wide open crazy to work type dogs. If you used tread mills this could give you a guide line of were the dog was going to break down and start trotting. In other words a way to determine when to stop and walk the dog with out letting the dog burn itself out early in the keep. Even if this method is used for a Cardio work out. One session only in one of the work days. Probably being the first work day in the work day grouping. The rest of the next work days the dog can do the Cat Mill, pulling weights, flirt pole etc. Variety is the spice of life and can keep some dogs from getting bored.
The way a pulling dog is worked is very similar to a Pro boxer. If Cardio is all the Boxer needed for wind, stamina, and endurance, the Boxer would do road work like a long distance runner. Run a lot of miles every day. Most Boxers only run one mile for every round to be fought. Then the rest of the various type work is in the gym. Which includes weight lifting, body bag, timing bag, rope jumping. Pushing and sparring with a sparring partner of a heavier weight. To help strengthen against the weight of the opponent.
There is no doubt, that the Swinging Jenny mentioned by Evolution is the Cat's Meow way to go. I believe it was Jack that mentioned about one hard to beat dog man, that put a certain amount of weight on his dogs or they pulled it (not sure which). Walked them into hard as steel shape.
I had a nice well made Treadmill,just did not like it nor a carpet mill. My extra large round table gave the dog a much better workout than the tread mill and was a close second to my Jenny. Preferred the Jenny/Round table and hand walking with a little weight pulling if needed. But not all this in one day. Cheers
Officially Retired
06-03-2014, 05:34 AM
A friend of mines used this keep for a while, he was down in the South part and thought it would be better Keep to use as opposed when he lived up north. He always had 3 parts of his yard, he ran Jeep/Sorrells and also ran heavy Eli dogs and last part of his yard he used some Snooty stuff that he tested and kept to breed into his other dogs. No lie we talked about this very keep about a month ago, he said the keep was great with his Jeep/Sorrells dogs but he lost all the time with his Eli dogs on this keep. Interesting his Jeep/Sorrells dogs were head dogs who just stayed out front riding the head with minimal contact and his Eli dogs were rough hard punching wrestlers. The keep was all cardio and took the strength from the dogs. I know they say every keep is different for every dog but this was experience of one man who used this keep as his primary for a few years.
I wouldn't even say the keep was "great" with the Jeep/Sorrells' dogs ... but rather that the Jeep/Sorrells dogs had a style that "wouldn't get ruined" by that keep.
Even head dogs do better when they have strength put into them: they can be rougher and more physical with their style too ... and control things more decisively and with greater authority.
A dog that relies totally on roughness, with those tools taken away. is just going to be "more obviously" malconditioned than a dog that has other tools to draw on ... but is still put in weaker shape than he could be.
Jack
Officially Retired
06-03-2014, 05:38 AM
Hence, the jenny that let's the dog work on the Hyde as he runs or walks and shakes with a counterweight on the opposite side for resistance
Allow me to quote:
"I have a perfect Robert Lemm treadmill, excellent. I haven't used it in 10 years. Nothing beats the jenny for conditioning. I used to do flirtpole and springpole work, but not so much anymore. I believe in strength-conditioning too. I'll hook a chain to a dog's harness on certain days when they're running the jenny so they can get some weight resistance training. Anyone who doesn't believe in strength training isn't winning consistently in top competition today."
~ Hardcore Mike
Jack
evolutionkennels
06-03-2014, 06:55 AM
Allow me to quote:
"I have a perfect Robert Lemm treadmill, excellent. I haven't used it in 10 years. Nothing beats the jenny for conditioning. I used to do flirtpole and springpole work, but not so much anymore. I believe in strength-conditioning too. I'll hook a chain to a dog's harness on certain days when they're running the jenny so they can get some weight resistance training. Anyone who doesn't believe in strength training isn't winning consistently in top competition today."
~ Hardcore Mike
Jack
http://youtu.be/FHcTwQd40qQ
If you note on the James Crenshaw interview. The type tread mill he used being one part of his dog keep. It was not just free wheeling, but had some inherit drag to it and was a larger wide type mill. He let the dog work at it's pace with some faster out put.
The type Round table I built was on a positive traction truck rear end. All the Hog head gears and shafts were left intact. The dog could not just free wheel this extra big table. You fellas that have a wide enough building or lean two. Go twenty foot across. No harder to build one sixteen foot across as twenty foot across. The dog had to use all his muscles to keep it going. If the dog speed up the table did to amount of effort applied. If dog slowed down the table slowed to the amount of effort applied. It never over run the dog but ran at a constant rate to effort.
This was from my experience, the Round Table being the second best type mill to use. When bad weather set in and the Swing Jenny being the best, could not be used. I had a nice built slat mill from a mill maker that used those Volkswagen front end hubs and real professional skate wheel bearings. Was never crazy about a slat mill. I felt it could put to much stress on the back end and kidneys.
I did like Maurice said. It only cost a little more to go first class. I bought the best materials and put in a lot of thought on my Swing Jenny and Round table. I had a Cat mill that was 40 foot on both sides with hook ups to run the dog in either direction. The extra opposing 40 foot length on my Cat mill added inherit drag to it. So it was to some degree not free wheeling either. Overtime though I realized if the Cat Mill and Round table are built long and wide enough. One side for running will do. JMHO. Cheers
Allow me to quote:
"I have a perfect Robert Lemm treadmill, excellent. I haven't used it in 10 years. Nothing beats the jenny for conditioning. I used to do flirtpole and springpole work, but not so much anymore. I believe in strength-conditioning too. I'll hook a chain to a dog's harness on certain days when they're running the jenny so they can get some weight resistance training. Anyone who doesn't believe in strength training isn't winning consistently in top competition today."
~ Hardcore Mike
Jack
What style dogs hardcore has? And would you apply resistance(strength) training on your own type of dogs. Since mike uses the word "anyone"
Edit: I didn't read what type of mill was being advised in your 60 mill keep(might have missed it). Other than that the idea comes pretty close to the lemm keep. Could you explain in which ways you think its better.
CrazyRed
06-05-2014, 07:13 AM
http://youtu.be/FHcTwQd40qQ
Evolution, I have a question on something i noticed in that video I'm going to send you a PM just incase it's a secret that you use and don't want let out
Officially Retired
06-05-2014, 09:26 AM
What style dogs hardcore has? And would you apply resistance(strength) training on your own type of dogs. Since mike uses the word "anyone"
Edit: I didn't read what type of mill was being advised in your 60 mill keep(might have missed it). Other than that the idea comes pretty close to the lemm keep. Could you explain in which ways you think its better.
You clearly didn't read the keep at all, because I advocate a Jenny, and answered all your other questions there as well.
evolutionkennels
06-05-2014, 09:33 AM
You clearly didn't read the keep at all, because I advocate a Jenny, and answered all your other questions there as well.
I wipe my ass with the Lemm Keep
You clearly didn't read the keep at all, because I advocate a Jenny, and answered all your other questions there as well.
Jack.The second part of the question is about you slatmill keep and in which ways you think its better than the lemm keep.
About the first question and the hardcore quote. If i take "anyone"(who doesnt believe in strength conditioning) literally its opposed to the believe that different type/style dogs require different type of condition.
Officially Retired
06-05-2014, 11:20 AM
Jack.The second part of the question is about you slatmill keep and in which ways you think its better than the lemm keep.
My slatmill keep is a "poor man's substitute" for the main keep in my book :idea:
The main keep in my book is a strength-conditioning keep, with the jenny being advocated as superior to any mill, precisely because it is an even mix of cardio plus muscular endurance (not just "pure cardio") :idea:
Only if people CAN'T use a jenny, and CAN'T follow my main keep, do I throw out a mill keep as a (distant) second-best option.
As for how my mill keep is "better" than the Lemm mill keep, I cannot say for sure, because I have never read the Lemm keep.
My main criticism of Lemm is for his mill, not his keep, as the entire idea of "free-spinning" is counter-productive to strength-building, thereby an inferior solution to conditioning for a fight.
The simple fact is fighters need to be STRONG and able to RESIST other fighters ... they don't just need to "breathe nicely" in a resistance-free environment :idea:
About the first question and the hardcore quote. If i take "anyone"(who doesnt believe in strength conditioning) literally its opposed to the believe that different type/style dogs require different type of condition.
Not so. That is your leap in logic, not anything Hard Core stated directly.
ALL dogs need strength conditioning, regardless of style. You might want to concentrate on weight-pull with certain style dogs, and concentrate more on the jenny with others, but ALL dogs need some kind of weight resistance training to be at their best. PERIOD.
For example, my dogs are typically head dogs, and typically win long-distance fights in "bulldog territory" (namely the 1:00-2:40 time range). My dogs repeatedly and consistently STOP so-called "killers" in their tracks, out-hustling, out-thinking, and out-scratching their asses DEEP in the trenches. Dogs that typically kill other dogs in :20-:30, find themselves unable to touch my dogs within that time ... or, if they do touch my dogs, they're still unable to put a dent in them ... and these so-called "killers" find themselves in there with A BULLDOG this time ... who will figure-out whatever they have to do, TO WIN ... as opposed to some "front-runner" who's going to fold right away and never figure out what he has to do.
That said, my dogs (like any dogs) DO BETTER when STRONG, than when weak. I found this out the hard way, when I was green, when I had my flagship dog Poncho wayyyy too light at 44 lb. At 48-lb Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2) was almost untouchable. Yet he was so light and weak at 44 that he couldn't overcome the 45-lb Ch Leonard. Poncho never got tired, he just had no strength left thanks to my (then-green) stupidity.
Yet, at 49 lb, Poncho stopped the even more devastating Dragoon in a mere :32. Dragoon only got his mouth on Poncho 2x in :32. Once at :12 and once at about :22, and Poncho got Dragoon out of these holds in seconds. Other than that, it was a 100% ROUT at the bigger weight into a devastating son of Ch Rattler. Poncho totally controlled, totally dominated, and was in fact trying to eat Dragoon by the :28 mark. The difference in Poncho's strength, and effectiveness, at the different weights was literally night-and-day. In fact, at the heavier weight of 51, Poncho was so strong and so good I rolled him with 58 lbers--and even they couldn't touch him. Yet, at 44, Poncho was a limp noodle and he couldn't do shit to keep Leonard out of his throat. Poncho's primary attribute as an ace head dog was NECK STRENGTH, which was gone at such a light weight, so you bet STRENGTH MATTERS, regardless of what your style is.
In fact, the same phenomenon happened to Poncho's triple-bred grandson, Ch Miagi (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7686). All of Ch Miagi's fights were in the 1:20-1:58 range, where he outlasted and outscratched so-called "killers" in the trenches, pounding their asses on the scratchline on his scratches, and basically beating them into submission with his gameness and pit smarts. Yet Miagi's shortest match was actually one where he came off the chain, 2-lb over his so-called "pit weight" of 44 lb. Rather than being spindly and weak from the usual treadmill keep of his owners, this time Miagi was basically only walked for 2-weeks (as he came in as a substitute for his father Hero (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=333), when something went wrong with his keep).
Miagi basically BENEFITTED by being 2-lb heavier, and NOT being put on the mill, as even though he was now fighting at 46 (rather than 44) he was MUCH stronger at the bigger weight, and didn't have all the strength taken out of him by some ridiculous mill keep this time. And, therefore, rather than fighting defensively as usual, Miagi took it to this dog, and went toe-to-toe with his bigger opponent, out-wrestled him and was much more aggressive than normal, and even knocked the bigger dog AND his owner OUT of the pit on his scratches.
So, yes, I firmly believe that all-out cardio work "only" ... and drawing dogs down too fine ... RUINS THEM ... regardless of what their preferred style may be :idea:
The dog "may win anyway" ... but NO DOG is helped at all by being either too light or "only cardio-trained."
Not one dog has ever been "helped" by being conditioned that way; it's just that some "win anyway," in spite of their stupid owner, while others lose because of their stupid owner (as Poncho only lost due to my own green stupidity).
EVERY dog is HELPED by some sort of strength conditioning ... and ALL dogs are better off coming in "a little heavy" than by coming in "a little light" :idea:
Dogs may "win anyway" with no strength training, but OPTIMAL condition = strength conditioned (as well as cardio-conditioned).
It's pretty much that simple. Word.
Jack
evolutionkennels
06-05-2014, 01:31 PM
My slatmill keep is a "poor man's substitute" for the main keep in my book :idea:
The main keep in my book is a strength-conditioning keep, with the jenny being advocated as superior to any mill, precisely because it is an even mix of cardio plus muscular endurance (not just "pure cardio") :idea:
Only if people CAN'T use a jenny, and CAN'T follow my main keep, do I throw out a mill keep as a (distant) second-best option.
As for how my mill keep is "better" than the Lemm mill keep, I cannot say for sure, because I have never read the Lemm keep.
My main criticism of Lemm is for his mill, not his keep, as the entire idea of "free-spinning" is counter-productive to strength-building, thereby an inferior solution to conditioning for a fight.
The simple fact is fighters need to be STRONG and able to RESIST other fighters ... they don't just need to "breathe nicely" in a resistance-free environment :idea:
Not so. That is your leap in logic, not anything Hard Core stated directly.
ALL dogs need strength conditioning, regardless of style. You might want to concentrate on weight-pull with certain style dogs, and concentrate more on the jenny with others, but ALL dogs need some kind of weight resistance training to be at their best. PERIOD.
For example, my dogs are typically head dogs, and typically win long-distance fights in "bulldog territory" (namely the 1:00-2:40 time range). My dogs repeatedly and consistently STOP so-called "killers" in their tracks, out-hustling, out-thinking, and out-scratching their asses DEEP in the trenches. Dogs that typically kill other dogs in :20-:30, find themselves unable to touch my dogs within that time ... or, if they do touch my dogs, they're still unable to put a dent in them ... and these so-called "killers" find themselves in there with A BULLDOG this time ... who will figure-out whatever they have to do, TO WIN ... as opposed to some "front-runner" who's going to fold right away and never figure out what he has to do.
That said, my dogs (like any dogs) DO BETTER when STRONG, than when weak. I found this out the hard way, when I was green, when I had my flagship dog Poncho wayyyy too light at 44 lb. At 48-lb Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2) was almost untouchable. Yet he was so light and weak at 44 that he couldn't overcome the 45-lb Ch Leonard. Poncho never got tired, he just had no strength left thanks to my (then-green) stupidity.
Yet, at 49 lb, Poncho stopped the even more devastating Dragoon in a mere :32. Dragoon only got his mouth on Poncho 2x in :32. Once at :12 and once at about :22, and Poncho got Dragoon out of these holds in seconds. Other than that, it was a 100% ROUT at the bigger weight into a devastating son of Ch Rattler. Poncho totally controlled, totally dominated, and was in fact trying to eat Dragoon by the :28 mark. The difference in Poncho's strength, and effectiveness, at the different weights was literally night-and-day. In fact, at the heavier weight of 51, Poncho was so strong and so good I rolled him with 58 lbers--and even they couldn't touch him. Yet, at 44, Poncho was a limp noodle and he couldn't do shit to keep Leonard out of his throat. Poncho's primary attribute as an ace head dog was NECK STRENGTH, which was gone at such a light weight, so you bet STRENGTH MATTERS, regardless of what your style is.
In fact, the same phenomenon happened to Poncho's triple-bred grandson, Ch Miagi (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7686). All of Ch Miagi's fights were in the 1:20-1:58 range, where he outlasted and outscratched so-called "killers" in the trenches, pounding their asses on the scratchline on his scratches, and basically beating them into submission with his gameness and pit smarts. Yet Miagi's shortest match was actually one where he came off the chain, 2-lb over his so-called "pit weight" of 44 lb. Rather than being spindly and weak from the usual treadmill keep of his owners, this time Miagi was basically only walked for 2-weeks (as he came in as a substitute for his father Hero (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=333), when something went wrong with his keep).
Miagi basically BENEFITTED by being 2-lb heavier, and NOT being put on the mill, as even though he was now fighting at 46 (rather than 44) he was MUCH stronger at the bigger weight, and didn't have all the strength taken out of him by some ridiculous mill keep this time. And, therefore, rather than fighting defensively as usual, Miagi took it to this dog, and went toe-to-toe with his bigger opponent, out-wrestled him and was much more aggressive than normal, and even knocked the bigger dog AND his owner OUT of the pit on his scratches.
So, yes, I firmly believe that all-out cardio work "only" ... and drawing dogs down too fine ... RUINS THEM ... regardless of what their preferred style may be :idea:
The dog "may win anyway" ... but NO DOG is helped at all by being either too light or "only cardio-trained."
Not one dog has ever been "helped" by being conditioned that way; it's just that some "win anyway," in spite of their stupid owner, while others lose because of their stupid owner (as Poncho only lost due to my own green stupidity).
EVERY dog is HELPED by some sort of strength conditioning ... and ALL dogs are better off coming in "a little heavy" than by coming in "a little light" :idea:
Dogs may "win anyway" with no strength training, but OPTIMAL condition = strength conditioned (as well as cardio-conditioned).
It's pretty much that simple. Word.
Jack
You guys keep dreaming, but nothing beats the Jenny on a sand track with a counterweight. LOOK AT THE VIDEO of Machobuck ...running, pushing forward, pulling backward, shaking the hyde, all while his mouth is closed .. THAT will beat any mill no matter what. The training that works the same muscles that mimic the actual show will always be the better training. Add to that a good dog with good ability that is NOT overworked.... you may make grandchampion or DOY. If you believe anything else... Youre DEAD WRONG
Officially Retired
06-05-2014, 02:38 PM
You guys keep dreaming, but nothing beats the Jenny on a sand track with a counterweight. LOOK AT THE VIDEO of Machobuck ...running, pushing forward, pulling backward, shaking the hyde, all while his mouth is closed .. THAT will beat any mill no matter what. The training that works the same muscles that mimic the actual show will always be the better training. Add to that a good dog with good ability that is NOT overworked.... you may make grandchampion or DOY. If you believe anything else... Youre DEAD WRONG
Agreed.
I also like windsprints with a dog in-harness, pulling moderate weights, with one man in control of the dog from behind on a leash ... with another out in front of the dog baiting him with a flirtpole ... with the dog chasing and driving after the hide for all he's worth. This is effective strength training for any dog, but especially should be given to a driving dog.
I like free-chasing flirtpoling too, for general speed/coordination work.
But the bulk of any top regimen revolves around the jenny, no doubt.
Jack
PS: I have said this many times before, but The Old Man I knew had a standing offer to BUY any of his opponents treadmills, if they wanted to use them. He felt that guaranteed any dog NOT to be in "the best shape possible."
Mr_VIP
06-05-2014, 04:07 PM
You guys keep dreaming, but nothing beats the Jenny on a sand track with a counterweight. LOOK AT THE VIDEO of Machobuck ...running, pushing forward, pulling backward, shaking the hyde, all while his mouth is closed .. THAT will beat any mill no matter what. The training that works the same muscles that mimic the actual show will always be the better training. Add to that a good dog with good ability that is NOT overworked.... you may make grandchampion or DOY. If you believe anything else... Youre DEAD WRONG
I agree with you. Been doing this with the jenny for years. I believe that it makes a big difference.
barber
06-08-2014, 09:26 AM
With respect to everyones methods, of conditioning, I have used many, but my fastest results came using modified techniques, similar to Lemms. Hence the term modified for i have never owned a Lemm mill. Lemm does talk about hand walking a hound that isn't able to complete a certain work sessions, therefore the session time is complimented by hand walking. Game, root word of gambling, comes with many variables, unfortunately nothing is absolute or guaranteed, selection and assessment of the hound or hounds to be used is of the most importance. Maximum stress, is simply that, resistance, cardio, or other wise , the Lemm keep is very simple; hand walking, treadmill, jenny(he did speak of a jenny), 10 speed; good nutrition and rest are the most important components. If the hound isn't naturally strong your not going to improve his strength that much, the muscles may develop and look better, but that does not mean that he is that much stronger. Over working is always a grave mistake. Barber
Mr_VIP
06-08-2014, 10:01 AM
With respect to everyones methods, of conditioning, I have used many, but my fastest results came using modified techniques, similar to Lemms. Hence the term modified for i have never owned a Lemm mill. Lemm does talk about hand walking a hound that isn't able to complete a certain work sessions, therefore the session time is complimented by hand walking. Game, root word of gambling, comes with many variables, unfortunately nothing is absolute or guaranteed, selection and assessment of the hound or hounds to be used is of the most importance. Maximum stress, is simply that, resistance, cardio, or other wise , the Lemm keep is very simple; hand walking, treadmill, jenny(he did speak of a jenny), 10 speed; good nutrition and rest are the most important components. If the hound isn't naturally strong your not going to improve his strength that much, the muscles may develop and look
better, but that does not mean that he is that much stronger. Over working is always a grave mistake. Barber
:appl: Knowing when and how to modify techniques is always very important.
widerange
06-08-2014, 03:03 PM
I have never felt that the free spinning keep was a good way to go. It just doesn't add up. I have a treadmill but have found that I only use it when working the dog at a slow pase( with the breaks applied) and have the dog hold a hide in mouth to help him breathe in hold. I also seen fat bill found away to work extra resistance training into spring pole work but using a core to hang a chain in a close by tree so that the dog working the spring pole has the resistance of the hanging chain work against. I started using this on my dogs while using a spring pole and have seen a huge improvement the outcome from the time spent spring poling.
FrostyPaws
06-08-2014, 05:35 PM
I believe if you're able to use one conditioning device, it would be a jenny over a mill. That being said, many keeps have the mill as the main part of their keep. So I don't necessarily agree that a jenny keep beats a mill one "no matter what". When I used the jenny, I never used a counterweight as the type of strength training I wanted to do was more intense than simply a counterweight.
While I agree with the jist of the posts, I'll only say there have been many Grand Champions and DOYs that were worked on mills. Could they have been in better shape? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I don't anyone can discount a keep done on a mill by an individual that knows specifically how to get the most from his dog using that particular keep.
Officially Retired
06-08-2014, 06:39 PM
I believe if you're able to use one conditioning device, it would be a jenny over a mill. That being said, many keeps have the mill as the main part of their keep.
Agreed. Twice.
So I don't necessarily agree that a jenny keep beats a mill one "no matter what".
Of course not.
The lamest jenny keep on the most haphazard jenny-contraption ... versus an optimal keep done on a truly good mill (like the Curios mill) ... is going to be much to the favor of the mill-trained dog.
However, best-to-best will always favor the jenny.
When I used the jenny, I never used a counterweight as the type of strength training I wanted to do was more intense than simply a counterweight.
I agree. The weightpull aspect of my keep is far more explosive, and exhausting, than a counter-weight on a jenny.
While I agree with the jist of the posts, I'll only say there have been many Grand Champions and DOYs that were worked on mills. Could they have been in better shape?
True.
But, their being Grand Champions had more to do with their talent than anything else ... not a mill.
And I would say that, if they weren't strength-trained to a degree, then yes, they could almost assuredly have come in better. Not to mention their competition was likely on a mill too.
Either way, I don't anyone can discount a keep done on a mill by an individual that knows specifically how to get the most from his dog using that particular keep.
Especially if he knows what a good dog is :lol:
That is why I have the mill keep; it can put a dog in really good shape; but not is its absolute best shape.
Jack
barber
06-08-2014, 08:28 PM
The term free spinning is often misunderstood, Lemm used the term easy turning and it was mistaken for free spinning, now the novice are in a tread mill spinning contest all around world. I have known gentlemen to use thrift store bought emills with great results, when i walk a dog and plant my heels in the ground thts all the resistance he needs if he's a pulling dog; it's great to have a hard working dog that is motivation for the conditioner. Counter balances were used to offset the weight of the hound not for resistance.
I will agree with the jenny being one of the superior tools to condition a dog. And I will add that most, if not all Jenny's will need a "counterweight" of sorts to make a smooth balanced rotation. BUT, using aweights to drag for resistance on a jenny is silly, unless it is only used for what I already described.
I know a certain individual of whom was at one time quite successful, then after some time away for foolish life decisions. This person trained with a jenny and up to 11 window weights being used as a so called counterweight, or resistance drag. The dog was the most overworked, pathetic looking shell of a dog I have ever seen, including ANY greenhorns dog I've seen.
Also, like mentioned in this thread, the track is probably the most important part of the jenny. It is easy to injure your dog even if the track is perfect. I personally would never use sand, or dirt. You need those shoulders, and they are easy to throw out!
And probably most important of all, over any tool one chooses, is not to overwork your animal.
S_B
As far as Lemm's keep goes, I have used bits and pieces of it in the past. I think Lemm knew quite a lot about conditioning an animal. I don't think his methods deserve being discredited, afterall he was successful using his own method, which included the flying jenny BTW.
He also conditioned horses for his daughter and was successful at that to.
There are many keeps that have been developed by dogmen who have already done the footwork. Don Mayfield, Crenshaw, Lemm, Fat Bill, Ken Allen, Barney Fife, Cali Jack, Jack Kelly and many others. Some of these folks believe in a Slatmill, some hand walking. I think if one takes all of these methods into consideration, and applies the tools and methods that best suite them, you will have success to. Provided you have the most important ingredient, a BULLDOG!
FrostyPaws
06-08-2014, 11:19 PM
Jack, I agree about the talent comment, and that goes for mill or jenny.
I personally don't think any person has ever put a dog in their absolute best shape. I think most of the conditioners are barely scratching the surface of what kind of shape a dog can really get into. I've had some dogs in better shape than others, but I don't think I've ever had a dog in it's absolute best shape.
Frosty, I agree with that statement.
First of all there is no way in the world any human or animal athlete is getting into its best physical shape in 8 weeks, that is ridiculous.
Trying to achieve "best physical shape" would have to be a process started from the beginning. Jack has stated before to feed optimaly, and even with that unless you are conditioning the animals body optimaly all of the time, you still would have a hard time finding that dogs "best physical shape".
There are just so many reasons one can not achieve this, one of the main obstacles other than time would be injury.
Ditto S_B. A good soft running track and at least a 40 foot running arm on a swinging jenny, is very important. I did as D. Mayfield suggested. I tilled in a lot of Bermuda hay and saw dust. This provided a soft running track that was easy on the dogs foot pads.
To keep a dog that liked to run too hard and hit those four corners of the curve. Which could maybe sling the dog and cause it to loose it's footing. I piled up some extra saw dust into those four corners. Before the running began. Kept extra saw dust in those four corners of the circle. Could rake it back in as needed.
If the dog started out to fast. It would hit those thicker four parts of the track and bog down a little. After several turns and hitting those thicker places of saw dust, in those four main corners. Dog would settle down and fast dog trot with intermediate spurts of loping.
I gave a smaller cat mill that had a 28 foot running arm to Mr. Truett. He set it up and Mr. Gainey tried one of his dogs on it. They did not till the ground and build a soft running track. With this smaller running radius, they did not build a running bank on the corners. Results was they ran the pads right off the dog's feet in short order. Mill had been set up in sand. Yikes !!!
I did tell and show Mr. Truett the correct running track I was using and correct dog collar hook up. They used a pulling harness. Cheers
Yes CYJ sir, you are very correct. You have just given very valuable information to anyone wanting to learn to optimize conditioning a bulldog on a jenny.
I'm not willing to share further knowledge I have learned concerning the "track", but if one wanted to do their own research, that knowledge could be gained. :)
I have often thought this as well. I have seen the same dog conditioned by two different groups and one be better than the other, but I always wondere dif the third group would have gotten even better. Hard to say.
I used the jenny once for awhile. On my 11 acres I have two relatively flat spots as it mostly descends down to a creek. I used the biggest flat spot to build my house. I used the second flat spot for the jenny. In time I used the spot to build my shop. I liked it a lot. I was still in the learning phase but I could see the difference in the dogs. I liked the fact the dogs feet were on the ground as much as a comparison between treadmills and catmills, if that makes sense.
Jack, funny you mentioned the Curios mills. He lived about a couple of miles from here. I pass where he lived near every day in my work commute. That was a strange dude. He loved his dogs. He built great mills. Like most, he would shoot you a dog man curve every now and again, but he was a solid dude. EWO
Jack, I agree about the talent comment, and that goes for mill or jenny.
I personally don't think any person has ever put a dog in their absolute best shape. I think most of the conditioners are barely scratching the surface of what kind of shape a dog can really get into. I've had some dogs in better shape than others, but I don't think I've ever had a dog in it's absolute best shape.
WHISPERS
06-13-2014, 02:28 PM
The Lemm keep is good for what its good for. Nobody does things exactly the way its told to them in these dogs. Its a good read to take from what you will and add to your own way of conditioning the same as the rest. I've used what I liked from it, tweaked it, added my strenghth to it and was successful. In saying that, I also must say that my mill is not free spinning, so in truth, I didnt actually go exactly by the keep in my cardio but used the same outline pretty much. I cant claim to b super knowledgeable in the dogs, but I AM eager to learn and do apply what I learn to the field in my trial n error approach, as it is just that for me. But in concern to the Lemm keep, its a good example of aerobic exorcise to aid in learning to shape ones hound. Me being from the city (or somethin like that) there's not many places you will find property large enough to put up a 40' jenny so the mill is what we have to work with. There IS an old dog man in township that has one for his horses tho. Id like to hear your thoughts on if I could use it, productively, on the dogs if allowed to use it, w/o doing more harm then good as I've never worked a jenny/catmill before.
Whispers
Whispers, what we sometimes call a Jenny is really the Cat mill. Believe it was Carver that hung the name swinging jenny on the cat mill. Regardless the cat mill or swinging jenny is powered by the dog running on the ground after a live bait in a cage or more preferably a animal hide etc.
The Horse Jenny that most Horse persons use have over head arms to attaché the horse leads to. Apparatus is powered by a electric motor. Usually designed to walk more than one horse at a steady horse walking pace.
Your friend may be a right on person. But would not expose my dogs to maybe his friends. Met very few horse lovers that liked dog men that owned any type of sporting dogs. The Humane Society and Peta are always just one phone call away.
You can do better with that type of mill work out with a electric tread mill inside of a building. Cheers
Oh man, I just wrote a in depth article on a cable set up that combines the workout of a weight pull, flirt pole and the spring pole with use of a weighted collar if one choses to. Lost my internet connection and lost the info.
So for those that have limited space, but have enough space to walk their dog. Here is the short version. Type materials etc. just ask or p.m. me. First put up a long cable run that is spread out into a long slack U shape. Have about four to five feet clearance overhead of the dog in the center of the cable length. For play action in the cable. If can be attached between two limber strong trees is a plus. Put rubber etc. guards around the cable ends to protect the Tree's from excessive rubbing.
The chain should have at least three swivels with the one near the dog, not so close it will be hitting the dog. The dog chain should go straight down to ground at center point of cable. Rest of chain length should be five to six more feet on the ground to allow the dog to pull away from the cable.
Get you a good deep sea fishing pole with butt harness to set the butt end in. Take several strong animal hides and sew them together and attaché fishing line to one end of the hide. You can even add some foam between the layers to give the hide a softer but firm grip for the dog.
Use a good quality pulling harness. Now you are ready to go dog fishing. LOL You can work the dog up and down the cable with dog also pulling out against the play in the overhead cable. Keep normal tension but do not snatch or pull very hard on the dog. You want it to keep it's teeth and head attached to it's body. LOL You can use a long dowel wood stick. That you can tap the dogs front legs and back legs and ribs. To learn the dog to move legs, hide the back end and twist from anything touching it there.
You can determine how much weight you want the chain to weigh depending on the size and over all strength of the dog. This adds the weight pulling to the exercise.
Work the dog up and down on the cable in intermediate work sessions and hand walking. Never to complete exhaustion and should be one part of the keep workout on just one day. This type workout will work the dog hard and probably should be done on it's last work day session.
If one has limited space, the first work days in that session can include a slat mill and round table. I would not combine mills, but use one day and the other the next day with the round table mill used second in the workout session. On these mills still work the dog in intermediate cycles and hand walking between. If you see that dog's tongue hanging all the way out of mouth, not recovering and back end legs dragging. You are doing to much to fast. Go slowly through a four week pre keep.
The round table can be run longer in intervals than the treadmill but best to stick with 30 minutes at a time, but not at the beginning. One hour on the round table for small dogs. hour and half for medium dogs. Up to two hours for big catch weight dogs. This is mostly steady dog trotting.
I liked a Monday through Wednesday with Thursday being a rest day. Friday-Saturday being work days and Sundays as a rest day. On rest days will not hurt to walk the dog and rub it down. Non of this is written in stone but just a guide line. Use common sense and go easy at the first and not rush things.
The best way to learn what works for you and how to slowly learn how to work a dog. The dog you are going to test pull for show dog gaminess. Put the said dog through a four week keep. Do enough of these, you will start getting the hang of it over time. Cheers
I would like to add that the ground or track the dog will be working back and forth on should be on the soft side. The dog's pads could be hurt if pulling against this cable set up in hard ground or sand. Can soften it up with tilled in straw and saw dust. With added saw dust to boot.
On the overhead cable you can use old rear end car or truck bearings to slide up and down the cable. Put extra ones on the cable to replace a worn one. A good trolley type roller is great if it will not come off and get stuck on the cable. Cheers
There is something else today's dog men should consider if at all possible. Particularly if it is a combined dog men group. The person that has the over all best knack for working a dog. Could have all the work equipment and hopefully enough land in the country to walk out a dog. That person should only have the show dog to be worked at that location period.
The future show dogs and younger dogs at one location. Brood dogs and Stud dogs and puppies some where else. All dog men should belong to a Sanctioned Dog show and weight pulling etc. events. Keep your ribbons and trophies near at hand. Will not hurt if one can have excess to some hog hunting. Get a valid hunting license and participate. Have your dog hog hunting vests on hand as well.
I know this is a lot of if ands and buts. But the way it is today, to have it all on one dog yard. To my way of thinking, you are setting a big bulls eye on your back. When some little thing goes wrong we all know who will be showing up. Cheers
Thanks S_B. Went back and added a little more. Very hard to explain all those things without seeing it done with your own eyes. Ca. Jacks guide line's, on the times on the mills, in his book are a good reference. For most of what many wish to or not to believe. There are many ways to work a dog and not many so called great secrets. Only what will work for you with a lot of time and hard work included.
You do need a proper amount of anaerobic work under controlled stress. Doing nothing but Aerobic work will leave your dog short when the pushing and shoving of body weight starts. Why long distant runners are always running somewhere. LOL When something bad catches up with them, might be trouble in paradise. LOL
Officially Retired
06-14-2014, 09:03 PM
Oh man, I just wrote a in depth article on a cable set up that combines the workout of a weight pull, flirt pole and the spring pole with use of a weighted collar if one choses to. Lost my internet connection and lost the info ...
Public Service Announcement
Heads up everyone:
CYJ, I am sorry you lost everything in your detailed post, but you did NOT have to start all over again.
Our ultra-cool forum here automatically saves what you do ... so that, if you do lose your connection (power failure, whatever), you can come back and finish what you started.
Check out this quick video I did to show you how:
http://youtu.be/OYrbt7rVW7Q
Take 2 minutes to watch this, as it will DEFINITELY help everyone here to know at some point ...
All right fellas, back to dogs :lol:
Jack
WHISPERS
06-15-2014, 01:23 PM
Whispers, what we sometimes call a Jenny is really the Cat mill. Believe it was Carver that hung the name swinging jenny on the cat mill. Regardless the cat mill or swinging jenny is powered by the dog running on the ground after a live bait in a cage or more preferably a animal hide etc.
The Horse Jenny that most Horse persons use have over head arms to attaché the horse leads to. Apparatus is powered by a electric motor. Usually designed to walk more than one horse at a steady horse walking pace.
Your friend may be a right on person. But would not expose my dogs to maybe his friends. Met very few horse lovers that liked dog men that owned any type of sporting dogs. The Humane Society and Peta are always just one phone call away.
You can do better with that type of mill work out with a electric tread mill inside of a building. Cheers
The old man still got dogs down from a dog I cant quite remember at the moment. He does some pretty decent ear cropping too. I doubt he'd be the one to make tht call based off the cropping methods he uses, tho. I just wondered uf tht jenny would b safe to use with the dogs as I'd like to gain some experience with as much as I can in conditioning dogs. I gotta try it at least one time or two to see how I feel about it for myself.
Back to the Lemm keep, tho. Does anyone else feel like the 15min sessions might be too light? My reasoning behind my feeling tht its too light is because I feel like im seeing the dogs starting to get hot and slowing down around 20min or so. The first time I tweaked it way up. The dog worked very hard and never caught a bad recovery till it hit 55min sessions. Also we stayed at 3 sets. She came out lookin great and performed just as good as she looked but we lost her in aftercare. Being that she dominated in the hunt, I figured she must have been over worked and could have had kidney failure so I tweaked it back down to twenty min sessions after that. Again.. I dont claim to b expert as I am still a student. Id like to know any opinions on tht part of her keep and the way it was tweaked still using the guidlines of the Lemm keep.
I am not sure of your particular dog or your particular case but I will venture to say 15 minutes could have been light. There is no written keep that out there that can accurately say what a dog will need two Thursdays from now on the 35th day of the keep. Simply can't be done. Every dog starts from a different level of readiness. Some dogs are more fit to start by nature or chain activity while the next dog may not be as 'ready' to start. Each dog will progress at a different rates and then there is always the chance of regress which tosses the minutes for that day of a written keep, as well as the next day, right out the window.
I used the principles of the Lemm keep of work, recovery and work on a carpet mill. I did not have a goal of working to a minute count, if that makes sense. I put the dog on the carpet mill and let him go all out til he broke, walked him out til he was ready and ran him again til he broke. This would be one set. I measured the initial run, the recovery time and the second run. In time the first run increased, the recovery time decreased and the last run increased. As the times increased on the carpet mill I would move to two sets and then to three in a session. Understanding the carpet mill is a tougher run the 2nd and 3rd runs were substantially lower than the first, especially when doing other work in between.
On the mill I did not work toward a total minute time as a goal. The dog truly dictated the times by what he could do on that particular day. If the times dropped off in the initial run or the dog did not recover from set to set as well as he did yesterday, then I more than likely over worked him the day before. Another adjustment has to be made. The principles are similar but I did not use heart rates as a factor. I basically let the dog stop the stopwatch not the stopwatch stop the dog. EWO
Thanks Jack for the answer.
EWO( and others), what i find difficult when doing hard work and checking the dog's recovery is; you can see the dog's breath recovers to normal, but how about muscle tiredness. Most dogs need something to go all out on the mill, especially on something with more resistance. That something can cause a dog to keep going all out and ignore weaknesses. Thats what bulldogs do. (I could place one on the mill with a broken ligament, show him a rabbit and he would sprint like a greyhound). I usually find out the next day, when its to late. How do you prevent/spot overworking the muscles, you got some tips on that?
About strength condition. I know allot of people believe in it. I also know having to much/big muscle is more likely to have a negative impact in show. How do u make sure/know the resistance training isnt causing that. Is it like u cant go wrong with light resistance training and how about dogs who are genetically heavily muscled?
Sorry for the language. Hope its understandable.
Thanks Jack for the info. Nut it is not a bad idea to do breaks off the various mills with hand walking. To watch how the dog recovers and note it's muscle strength. The first area of the body to weaken the fastest is the same as on a all types of full contact human fighting. It is the legs and on a dog it will be the back end. Dog is not moving naturally and starts dragging or not picking up the back legs normally. You are doing to much at the start or to much period.
For as baiting a dog if one has to. Best done early in the workout and minimally. When I used a rabbit in a cage set up in front of my Round table. Soon as the dog started running extra hard. I would cover the rabbit. Over time I seldom used the rabbit, as I wanted the dog to work at a normal steady pace on the Table are the Cat Mill. JMHO
It is best to learn how to pre keep dogs before jumping all the way into a full 60 day keep. If one is using a Carpet mill go by the Colby keep, if you are using a slat mill go by the Armitage method or Mr. Lemms. The Armitage slat mills or most mills of that day, may have had more drag. Study the keeps recommended in Ca. Jack's books.
I feel like the basic way to best feed a dog has pretty well been solved with good recommendations like in Ca. Jack's book that will take out a lot of extra work and headaches at feeding time.
To be on the safe side using any one's written keep. Do just half the times recommended as guide lines in a pre keep. A Cat Mill is another animal all to it's self and working one off a cable like I mentioned or just a flirt pole has a different approach.
Some of the best dog conditioners that had good natural talent got better by going and spending time with other known successful dog conditioners. Even J. Crenshaw has pictures of him self visiting with Don Mayfield and others. V. Jackson learned from D. Mayfield and the Florida combine dog men. Still he had to adjust all that he learned to his lifestyle, type of equipment he could use or not use. The time available to work a dog and even the basic type yearly weather we were living in.
Don Divine raised and raced thoroughbred Horses and competed in dog pulling events. Told a group of us one time. That it was easier getting a Horse ready for a Race than getting a dog ready for it's dog pulling event. Cheers
I agree dogs will hide injuries and soreness and most anything that could be perceived as a weakness. It is completely natural.
I like to know the dog long before the work begins. I like to see the strides and the gait when he is perfectly healthy and well rested. Once I get a feel for how that particular dog carries himself I know when something changes. Usually the gait is a give away to an injured leg, injured muscle or foot/paw. Anytime the dog favors a limb it is time to stop and figure out why. There is nothing good on the other end of working a hurt dog.
It is hard to stop the dog on that perfect point every day. It takes time and experience and doing lots of dogs. It is always best to err on the side of not enough than too much. Lots of people work the dogs like they are machines and do not realize the most important of work is rest. Without rest and recovery the work dwindles and the dog is a shell of himself in very little time.
In the beginning and after a few keeps the conditioner will learn to recognize signs. In time the dog will dictate the amounts and those amounts will be based on the dogs individual abilities on a given day. The keeps then become tailor made for the dog being worked. EWO
realitytv
02-07-2015, 12:10 AM
The best surface I've seen for the jenny track is rice hulls. Spray it down with water to keep it moist and rake before using.....great for the pads