Great dog with no papers

[YigYang]

Just curious..... If you had a great dog that did great in competiton for you more than once, but had no papers... what would you do with the dog. :?: :?: ;)

"Please do not pass any negitive judgment on myself, i just wanted people honest opinion for a topic to just have " just a General Bulldog Chat

[evolutionkennels]

He earned his feed for the rest of his life

[YigYang]

He earned his feed for the rest of his life
No doubt he has earned a feed, but nt sure if u will use him in my program

[Hurstmob]

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[HOGBIZ]

Dogs are bred off another dog, there are Poncho dogs, Redboy dogs, Virgil dogs, Mayday dogs, etc. Most never look past the name, as you should not, they look at the performance.

Bottom line, who cares how the dog might have been bred, a performer is a performer and in 3 generations who will care how the main name was bred as long as it and it's offspring reproduce temselves.

[HOGBIZ]

I would breed the dog and see what it produces, but I have the time to do so and most want to chase paper.

Since you posed the question YinYang, and this may be a hypothetical dog, what would you do with it?

[FACE203]

Gr ch 35.... I do not believe he was bred.. For not having papers/unknown ped...
I wouldn't bred the dog, any dog with out knowing, its history/ped... Jmho

[Officially Retired]

Gr ch 35.... I do not believe he was bred.. For not having papers/unknown ped...
I wouldn't bred the dog, any dog with out knowing, its history/ped... Jmho


Gr Ch 35 was bred ... and he never produced anything worth a hoot ...

How a dog is bred matters ...

If I knew (and liked) how the dog was bred, but just didn't have papers, I would breed him no problem.

If I did not know how he was bred at all, I would treat the dog kindly and give him the comfortable retirement he deserves ... but I sure wouldn't breed him to my best bitches.

Jack


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[FACE203]

Thanks for clearing, that up...

[YigYang]

I would breed the dog and see what it produces, but I have the time to do so and most want to chase paper.

Since you posed the question YinYang, and this may be a hypothetical dog, what would you do with it?
If itjust didnt have papers but i know the sire and dam and there bloodline line i might consider breeding him but if know knowledge a all than no i will not breed the dog

[HOGBIZ]

Ahh, but who's to say how a dog is bred is actually how it is bred? To know for certian means you would have actuallty witnessed the breeding of said dog as well as the breeding of the parents, as well as the parents of those.

Poncho for one is said to be off Hammer, but as is told, there are 2 different breedings behind Hammer. Now, I don't run Poncho dogs, but with that said, you don't run Hammer dogs either Jack, you run your line, Poncho dogs.

In short, you built your line off what you saw in Poncho, not Hammer. Sure, you know how you were told Hammer and Trinx were bred, believed what you were told, but what if it was not so? Whould you have changed your breeding program, or do you think your program would have done what it did simply breeding off of Poncho?

Just picking brains.



Gr ch 35.... I do not believe he was bred.. For not having papers/unknown ped...
I wouldn't bred the dog, any dog with out knowing, its history/ped... Jmho


Gr Ch 35 was bred ... and he never produced anything worth a hoot ...

How a dog is bred matters ...

If I knew (and liked) how the dog was bred, but just didn't have papers, I would breed him no problem.

If I did not know how he was bred at all, I would treat the dog kindly and give him the comfortable retirement he deserves ... but I sure wouldn't breed him to my best bitches.

Jack


.

[FACE203]

I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

[HOGBIZ]

Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?


I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

[AL Clown]

I would have to side with HOGBIZ, as I have done this before although the dog produced crap I would still try again if said dog was of high caliber.

The dog I bred caught 4 hogs, and took a real game chin crawling beating from a much better hog.

[FACE203]

Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?


I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

I guess its all how you look at it...
You say try to always recreate the past... How can you if you don't know?

My first hound, was from an unkown background. Moms was a good house dog, the dad was said to be from dibo(don't laugh to hard lol) she was a good dog in the bush league and her brother. I bred her to a game dog, didn't get squat... lol so I too have been down that road and would not go that route again... That's just me... I don't have time or money to waste on, what may become of the unknown.. You fellas take it easy...

[Officially Retired]

Ahh, but who's to say how a dog is bred is actually how it is bred? To know for certian means you would have actuallty witnessed the breeding of said dog as well as the breeding of the parents, as well as the parents of those.
Poncho for one is said to be off Hammer, but as is told, there are 2 different breedings behind Hammer. Now, I don't run Poncho dogs, but with that said, you don't run Hammer dogs either Jack, you run your line, Poncho dogs.
In short, you built your line off what you saw in Poncho, not Hammer. Sure, you know how you were told Hammer and Trinx were bred, believed what you were told, but what if it was not so? Whould you have changed your breeding program, or do you think your program would have done what it did simply breeding off of Poncho?
Just picking brains.



You're right and you're wrong in your thinking.

1: You're right in your thinking that Hammer may not have been bred the way I thought he was when I bred to him, which (sometimes) goes to show it doesn't matter how a dog is bred;

2) You're wrong in your thinking, because I built what I have off of Poncho (not because of Hammer) ... and not even because Poncho was "good" ... I built my yard around Poncho because he proved to be an exceptionally-prepotent stud dog. At the time, most of my pups off of "heavy Bolio" breedings (and even off Truman) were quitting. But Poncho came out of an all-game litter ... and damned near every pup he threw was a badass (or very game dog), and this is the reason I "dropped anchor" with Poncho: his prepotency.

The truth is, very few dogs are actually PREPOTENT, meaning they have the ability to throw super dogs regardless of how you breed them ... and that includes "good dogs" ... because even most "good dogs" simply can't produce.

Furthermore, I also hadn't really set a family back then, I was in the process of finding out "what's what" with the dogs I had BOUGHT, or with my FIRST few breedings. It was only when I saw how game Poncho was when he lost, and then how consistently he was producing when I bred to him, that I started funneling everything I had through Poncho. Unfortunately, I was in the city back then, so I didn't have much room, and so hardly made any breedings with him ... compared to what I could have done with him, say 6 years ago, when I had 40+ bitches, not 3-4 bitches.




___________________
___________________





I would have to side with HOGBIZ, as I have done this before although the dog produced crap I would still try again if said dog was of high caliber.
The dog I bred caught 4 hogs, and took a real game chin crawling beating from a much better hog.

And that's exactly why I wouldn't bother breeding to some "good dog" with a totally-unknown pedigree is because most dogs are NOT prepotent, and can't produce worth a lick, even if they're good dogs themselves.

It is hard enough to get off the ground as a breeder, using good dogs that you know how they're bred (or at least some general idea), let alone if you have no idea how they're bred at all, nor what anything behind them is bred.

At least with Poncho, whether Hammer was really off of Ruben or BBB makes no difference, as BOTH were prepotent dogs that produced, and Ch Hammer wasn't just "a good dog," he was also out of an all-game litter ... otherwise I wouldn't have bred to him at all.

Jack


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HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????

[Officially Retired]

HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????


Interesting distinction.

I would be more willing to try a good, unknown female out over a male -- because it doesn't hurt if she can't produce.

In other words, in the original scenario, the question was should I waste one of my good female's heat cycles on an "unknown-bred male" (which I would NOT do) ... but tossing a load of semen from my excellent stud into an "unknown bitch" is altogether different, because I have not committed so much to the unknown dog. In other words, I can use my good dog's semen on one of my well-known bitches anytime ... the next day if I want ... whereas when I commit one of my bitch's heat cycles to an unknown male, I can't use her again for at least another 8 months (maybe a year or more).

This is why you could call up any dogman and breed your done-nothing bitch to his Grand Champion Stud: it's nothing to him to lose a little semen out of his stud; he can use him again tomorrow.

But if you called and asked to borrow his best brood bitch to breed to your done-nothing stud, he will say "NO!", because nobody is going to waste a heat cycle of their best bitch on anything they don't know and want real bad.

The level of commitment is simply too great, with using a key female on an unknown male, whereas there is zero commitment using a key male on an unknown female, because you can immediately use the key stud's semen again.

Jack

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[Dre21]

HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????


Interesting distinction.

I would be more willing to try a good, unknown female out over a male -- because it doesn't hurt if she can't produce.

In other words, in the original scenario, the question was should I waste one of my good female's heat cycles on an "unknown-bred male" (which I would NOT do) ... but tossing a load of semen from my excellent stud into an "unknown bitch" is altogether different, because I have not committed so much to the unknown dog. In other words, I can use my good dog's semen on one of my well-known bitches anytime ... the next day if I want ... whereas when I commit one of my bitch's heat cycles to an unknown male, I can't use her again for at least another 8 months (maybe a year or more).

This is why you could call up any dogman and breed your done-nothing bitch to his Grand Champion Stud: it's nothing to him to lose a little semen out of his stud; he can use him again tomorrow.

But if you called and asked to borrow his best brood bitch to breed to your done-nothing stud, he will say "NO!", because nobody is going to waste a heat cycle of their best bitch on anything they don't know and want real bad.

[The level of commitment is simply too great], with using a key female on an unknown male, [commitment using a key male on an unknown femalewhereas there is zero , because you can immediately use the key stud's semen again.]

Jack

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SUCH IS LIFE MY FRIEND, SUCH IS LIFE :D :D :D !!!!!

[HOGBIZ]

Now this is a good question with a well thought out answer from CJ.

The origional question, "Just curious..... If you had a great dog that did great in competiton for you more than once, but had no papers... what would you do with the dog. ".

Left it open ended and most who answered deffered to the "Great Dog" being a male.

Good stuff here.


HYPOTHETICALLY IMAGINE IF THE NO PAPERS, UNKNOWN DOG WAS A GREAT WINNING "FEMALE" ,WOULD YOU BREED HER AND TEST OFFSPRING THOROUGHLY OR TREAT HER LIKE A QUEEN UNTIL DEATH???????

[HOGBIZ]

I believe where we see eye to eye Al is we are breeding for ourselves, so if the litter did not work it would be a simple matter of culling and moving on. The losses on our end would simply be time, and the gain would be that of experimentation and knowledge aquired by the final outcome, whether it be keeper or plugs.


I would have to side with HOGBIZ, as I have done this before although the dog produced crap I would still try again if said dog was of high caliber.

The dog I bred caught 4 hogs, and took a real game chin crawling beating from a much better hog.

[FACE203]

Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?


I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

I don't sell dogs either... I well place a few when time comes...

You said you bred, what you use... So how would you not know, how the dog is bred?
You lost me on that...

[HOGBIZ]

This is not my post/thread FACE, I was simply replying to the origional question posed by YinYang;

"Just curious..... If you had a great dog that did great in competiton for you more than once, but had no papers... what would you do with the dog."

It was a hypothetical question, and to stay in the groove of the post, the dog is still hypothetical and not even the poster of the question knows how the dog's bred. Or maybe he does but just does not have papers on it?
:idea:

Either way, I have bred dogs that were free dogs out of a sign in the window of a local butcher and the pups off him have turned out to be workers and the pups off those now grown dogs have turned out to act like they would like to work as well. Anyone who has been in the woods with me and seen my dog Stan go knows he puts hogs in the freezer on a weekly basis, which made him worth breeding to me in the 1st place.



Here's my ultimate point, good dogs don't grow on trees and I don't breed for others, but myself.

So if I have a good dog who's done the dew for me on more thank one occasion and earned his feed, you better believe I'm going to breed him and see what comes out. Just because I don't know how he's bred doesn't mean he does not have a breeding future in my camp.

It doesn't matter if it's bulldogs, coondogs, rabbitdogs or hogdogs, most always try to re-create the past instead of simply looking forward.

This is also a very selective subject since all most of us need is $500 or a good friend to get a pup off a proven dog with a registered pedigree, but, without the internet and all the blood you could buy out there, take that all away and then tell me you still wouldn't breed to a proven dog that was "A" grade material, despite not knowing his blood background?


I know you asked jack, so in no way am I answering for him...
Imho, that was a long time ago, folks take pics of the breedings, now a days.. So it is harder, to get over on a seasoned(semi also) dogman...
Also if you don't trust the person, more than likely, no matter how good the dog is, u won't do busy with said person...

I don't sell dogs either... I well place a few when time comes...

You said you bred, what you use... So how would you not know, how the dog is bred?
You lost me on that...

[HOGBIZ]

I have bred Stan to bitches that the whole litter did not turn out though... these were to gyps that were slow starters themselves (3 to 4 years before working well), and I culled the entire litter. Had I waited past 2 years of age, the dogs may have turned on, but 2 years with an unknown background breeding is where I draw the line.

Had I bred the gyp to a proven dog that had a documented lineage, I may have waited past the 2 year marker.

[FACE203]

Okay, thx for helping me understand you...
Take it easy

[Hurstmob]

I understand what everyone is saying by not wanting to breed a dog with an unknown history, but this is why the game is at where its at now with all this paper breeding going on. People are focusing more on pedigrees as opposed to performance. Dog A could have the prettiest ped in the world, but not be worth the dog food he is eating. Meanwhile dog B has an unknown ped but is a great dog. You guys are saying that you wouldn't take a chance and breed thst bad ass dog with an unknowm ped? You would rather breed that pretty papered piece of crap based solely on his ped? Let me guess the pretty papered dog is bred to produce right. I will take performance over ped any day, because at the end of the day none of them may not produce anything but me personally my performer is gonna get more chances to prove his self as a producer as opposed to my pretty papered turd.

[FACE203]

I understand what everyone is saying by not wanting to breed a dog with an unknown history, but this is why the game is at where its at now with all this paper breeding going on. People are focusing more on pedigrees as opposed to performance. Dog A could have the prettiest ped in the world, but not be worth the dog food he is eating. Meanwhile dog B has an unknown ped but is a great dog. You guys are saying that you wouldn't take a chance and breed thst bad ass dog with an unknowm ped? You would rather breed that pretty papered piece of crap based solely on his ped? Let me guess the pretty papered dog is bred to produce right. I will take performance over ped any day, because at the end of the day none of them may not produce anything but me personally my performer is gonna get more chances to prove his self as a producer as opposed to my pretty papered turd.

I don't think that is true, the game is the way it is because of, some of the people that is in it.

It's like a catch 22, when breeding.... You have(imo) got to know what you are breeding and how its bred, to progress forward, with the animals.. So you have got to look at your dog, to know what it lacks.. You have got to know the history, so you know which way to go, to get what your dog lacks.

Unless you just breeding dogs, to say you got some. With no consistity(sp) likeness. Just a bunch if scatterbred dogs. Have fun with that..

I want my dogs to remind me of a dog in its history, in looks and style...

Who doesn't what a pretty ped. But what makes a pretty ped. I bunch of bums, cold dogs, man biters, late starters, dogs with defects..

The thing is you can't control what the next man does. You can encourage him/her. What you can control, is you and your yard.. So just make sure you doing the right thing. Not just talking about it, but being about...

I would hope nobody, is wanting, to bred to crappy dogs. Cause more than likey, you will get more crappy dogs... Pretty ped or no ped...

You have got to know the history, to predict the future...
You have got to bred game dogs, to get game dogs...

I may have left something out, but that's my take on it...

[Hurstmob]

I

[HOMEWORK215]

Just curious..... If you had a great dog that did great in competiton for you more than once, but had no papers... what would you do with the dog. :?: :?: ;)

"Please do not pass any negitive judgment on myself, i just wanted people honest opinion for a topic to just have " just a General Bulldog Chat yo BRO. READ ABOUT GR.C 35 and you have your answer

[HOGBIZ]

Exactly, you can read on other boards where people will by dogs from Garner based on the fact that your chances, so it's said, of getting a bulldog are better then average. They know every last one of his breeding are questionable regarding the paperwork, and the chances of getting a paperhung - scatter bred dog are high, but they'll still buy his dogs and breed to his stock knowing that the breeding may not be what it says.

The proof is in the "Putting" and not the "Pudding".


I agree with you but most people nowadays will breed a dog based on pedigree alone, which to me is crazy I have , culled and given away dogs which were bred impeccably, that most people would have breed based on the ped alone. I personally don't care what others do, but I do believe most people worry about peds too much. Where i am from there are not many big time breeders so to speak, we worry about the dog. If i have a dog triple bred off ch whatever and he is not up to my standards well guess what his future will be. Now if Joe blow brings me a dog and he is a bad ass and wins for me he is getting bred i dont give a damn. I chase dogs not paper. And if the dog produces then that is a plus, but i have seen a lot of well bred dogs produce crap. So me if the dog performs he gets bred regardless i dont register dogs im not trying to have the tightest bred this or that, i dont sell dogs nor am i trying to make a name as a breeder where im from we only care about [] dogs. I understand the fact that the percentages may not be there but hey. So if you guys didnt know how a bad ass dog like Vengeance was bred you guys wouldnt bred him because you didnt know his ped, thats absurd. Thats how you can tell who in the woods and who is not a bad ass dog is a bad ass period. FYI most these peds arent correct anyway.

[FACE203]

Nice chatting with you fellas... Maybe one day we will meet in the woods..
Take it easy

The Problem Solver

[Hurstmob]

I respect everyones opinion to each his own its just seems kind of absurd that a person would say thay they won't breed a bad ass dog that has won 5 for you because his ped is unknown unless you have a ystd full of Gr Ch and Ch whose pedigrees you know then I can see you walking past him to breed to your other Gr. Ch. Good discussion though.

[Officially Retired]

I respect everyones opinion to each his own its just seems kind of absurd that a person would say thay they won't breed a bad ass dog that has won 5 for you because his ped is unknown unless you have a ystd full of Gr Ch and Ch whose pedigrees you know then I can see you walking past him to breed to your other Gr. Ch. Good discussion though.

I don't see why it's absurd at all.

The fact is, most Grand Champions don't produce Grand Champions ... and another fact is most Grand Champions didn't come out of Grand Champions either. Therefore, "being a Grand Champion" is essentially a wildcard and is a predictor of nothing as far as production goes.

The truth is, Grand Champions produce mostly average dogs ... just like every other dog ... so there is no reason to get all excited about breeding to one ... unless you know what you're working with genetically, and have the insight to see there truly is a truly excellent "genetic wall" behind the dog.

When you breed, you get what the average of the line is on average, not what the best/worst, are, which is why having some idea of what's behind your dog "on average" (for better or worse) is so important to successful breeding.

Jack

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[snapbak]

I understand what everyone is saying by not wanting to breed a dog with an unknown history, but this is why the game is at where its at now with all this paper breeding going on. People are focusing more on pedigrees as opposed to performance. Dog A could have the prettiest ped in the world, but not be worth the dog food he is eating. Meanwhile dog B has an unknown ped but is a great dog. You guys are saying that you wouldn't take a chance and breed thst bad ass dog with an unknowm ped? You would rather breed that pretty papered piece of crap based solely on his ped? Let me guess the pretty papered dog is bred to produce right. I will take performance over ped any day, because at the end of the day none of them may not produce anything but me personally my performer is gonna get more chances to prove his self as a producer as opposed to my pretty papered turd.
;)

[Officially Retired]

I understand what everyone is saying by not wanting to breed a dog with an unknown history, but this is why the game is at where its at now with all this paper breeding going on. People are focusing more on pedigrees as opposed to performance. Dog A could have the prettiest ped in the world, but not be worth the dog food he is eating. Meanwhile dog B has an unknown ped but is a great dog. You guys are saying that you wouldn't take a chance and breed thst bad ass dog with an unknowm ped? You would rather breed that pretty papered piece of crap based solely on his ped? Let me guess the pretty papered dog is bred to produce right. I will take performance over ped any day, because at the end of the day none of them may not produce anything but me personally my performer is gonna get more chances to prove his self as a producer as opposed to my pretty papered turd.
;)


The fallacy to this thinking is you're comparing polar opposites: Dog A (with pretty papers, but not worth a damn) to Dog B (a badass dog, but with an unknown background).

You're forgetting the most important dog of all, which is Dog C 8-)

Some some of us don't have to make such a "poor man's" choice between the two evils of Dog A and Dog B ... some of us in fact have the luxury of not just "one" dog, but multiple dogs of a third kind you haven't mentioned ... again Dog C (fully-capable, badass dogs ... WITH pretty papers ... who have reliably and consistently produced Champion-caliber, Champion-defeating, BIS-winning dogs for years).

How's that for a wink? ;) ;)

Jack


.

[Hurstmob]

Yeah I forgot to mention dog C. I understand what you are saying and you are right about Gr Ch usually not producing that good, If I had other options as you stated then yes he would take the back burner to my other bad ass dog, but if I didnt and he was one of my best dogs I would have to take a shot and breed him, but I must reiterate that I am not a breeder and dont claim to know it all.

[HOGBIZ]

Dog C wasn't in the equation of the origional question. I don't think it's right to talk down and call this a "Poor Mans" choice. Some of us have had that Dog C, some have not, but the origional question was about Dog A.

Jack, I can tell you've had a few... it's 5 o'clock somewhere!

Cheers! Time to feed the dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Dog C wasn't in the equation of the origional question. I don't think it's right to talk down and call this a "Poor Mans" choice. Some of us have had that Dog C, some have not, but the origional question was about Dog A.


Dog C might not have been in your original equation, but in point of fact such dogs are the only dogs truly serious people worry about :idea:

I am sorry if you did not like my choice of words, it wasn't meant to be mean-spirited at all, it is only a phrase. But ultimately it is the truth: "dog poor" people are the only ones worrying about matters such as this; "dog rich" people do not.

You posted a general question for feedback, did you not? That is my honest feedback :mrgreen:

While the debate keeps bouncing back from one bad extreme to another, focus is being lost on what is the BEST choice, which is Dog C. So, ultimately, if you want the best results it is wise to stick with the best choices.

It might not have been the response you wanted to hear, but it might also be the response you should give serious consideration :idea:

Cheers,

Jack

PS: And, you're wrong, I haven't had a drop to drink :mrgreen:

PSS: Feel free to ignore my advice and breed his balls off. If you prove me wrong, and produce a bunch of great dogs, you can come back here and make fun of my answer :lol:

[HOGBIZ]

LOL, one of the finer points of on line chats, it’s hard to recognize tone for what it really is. I would have to agree to disagree on your point;
“But ultimately it is the truth: "dog poor" people are the only ones worrying about matters such as this; "dog rich" people do not.”

Some just like to experiment, and free dogs are worth my time, because one day I’m gonna quit sucking air and as long as I slide in with no regrets, I’m cool. On the other hand, I can follow the path you’ve chosen, to seek out the best, breed the best, and try to teach the best (That would be me, LOL). Just because I would choose to take an Ace with no papers does not make me dog poor, it just means I don’t care about the same things you do. Not to mention, I just like making wine out of vinegar, because that is my life’s story.

The other point must have been a guilty conscience on my part. All in all, I enjoy sensible debate, regardless of who it comes from.

Cheers!
:D



Dog C wasn't in the equation of the origional question. I don't think it's right to talk down and call this a "Poor Mans" choice. Some of us have had that Dog C, some have not, but the origional question was about Dog A.


Dog C might not have been in your original equation, but in point of fact such dogs are the only dogs truly serious people worry about :idea:

I am sorry if you did not like my choice of words, it wasn't meant to be mean-spirited at all, it is only a phrase. But ultimately it is the truth: "dog poor" people are the only ones worrying about matters such as this; "dog rich" people do not.

You posted a general question for feedback, did you not? That is my honest feedback :mrgreen:

While the debate keeps bouncing back from one bad extreme to another, focus is being lost on what is the BEST choice, which is Dog C. So, ultimately, if you want the best results it is wise to stick with the best choices.

It might not have been the response you wanted to hear, but it might also be the response you should give serious consideration :idea:

Cheers,

Jack

PS: And, you're wrong, I haven't had a drop to drink :mrgreen:

PSS: Feel free to ignore my advice and breed his balls off. If you prove me wrong, and produce a bunch of great dogs, you can come back here and make fun of my answer :lol:

[Choctaw]

I'd feed him, but I wouldn't breed him...............

[Realmobb]

People talk all That Stuff about NOt Breeding without Papers and a High Percentage of Gamedogs in Past and Present Historys papers aint right!! So with that bein said if you had a GREAT 1 You wouldnt Breed em ? i think you would!! JMO

[Plywood]

no papers mean just that, not registered thru a corporation "kennel Club" nothing else.

not neccessarily unknow linage.

little history lesson:

in the olden days only pit champions were able to get registered.


today having a piece of paper saying so and so is my mommy n daddy with a forged signature will suffice.

[STONEWALL]

I'd try to get a full sister or close relative if possible. If the full sister or close relative was a good dog also i'd breed them together and hope for good results. Other than that I'd let him live out his life. He earned it.

[HIEROGLYPH]

A friend of mine has a Gr Ch that no one is sure on how his mom is bred, he know how the dad is bred, the thing is though is he has been breedin him and got a 1xw and many prospects that are looking dam good in school off of this Gr Ch. He just making sure he is breedin him to well bred females.

[loot]

Some of my better dogs had no papers. If there good there good point blank.

[apeman]

Bump up for 2020...

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Interesting thread.

if I were to have a great one but had no idea how it was bred I would still take a top female to him, cull hard and if anything worked out take one of his offspring back to him and go from there...

If he didn't produce anything of note in said litter then I probably wouldn't breed him again but would make sure he had a comfortable home for the rest of his days.

[Thunder98]

If I had the extra land maybe with a female, to my best producing male.. get the best female that pulled from him, then go back into her.. hope for the best like with every litter..
Sometimes good dogs just come into your life..

[ceasar]

Are we talking unknown ped?
If I know how the dog is bred and what’s behind it is solid absolutely I would bred it.
No paperwork necessary.

Completely unknown, no I wouldn’t.
Be just my luck this great dog came from a litter of curs or substandard dogs and that’s what you’ll most likely get breeding it.

[CYJ]

Probably the most famous male dog of my time was Bass'(Wilbur Martin's Red Boy. Was not, that the dog did not have a set of papers. Just that the sire was incorrect. After EWO explained what Mr. Pulley and others of that time knew of the Stidham influence along with Lonzo Pratt's Andy-Dibo breeding. Not to mention that Chavis later reintroduced some more tight Lonzo Pratt's breeding with more Red Boy breeding into the Jocko line. The Rast's Queenie bitch was from Mr. Cable and had Stidham- Williams- Dibo descended dogs.

Once I did some test breeding on this site to some of those dogs and looked at the 14th generation. I saw why that this basically three way cross of Cable- Stidham, V.J.'s Hank- Jim Williams, Corvino-Dibo and Lonzo'-Dibo-Williams dogs made a great nick. IMHO, it was V.J.'s Hank dog that was the catalyst that brought it all together and gave those dogs that hybrid vigor and ruggedness.

Most of those dogs especially the last dogs Mr. Gainey had. Looked like the old Jim Williams dogs. Big boned rugged dogs, being bigger pound for pound than most of their opponents.

[CYJ]

Ditto Ceasar. Why today you see so many breeding's that are flopping. Then there is one that nicks and the whole litter are very good to great dogs. Then instead of that person making this breeding as much as possible. Start adding another super stud etc. into the successful breeding of the original sire and dam. Nine out of ten times nothing clicks.

There is a pedigree on here that I entered of a bitch dog's pedigree that was bred to one of the V.J.'s later bloodlines. Was one of those hot nicks that throwed some good dogs. Looking at the first five generations. This female appeared to be scattered bred. Went to the 14th generation showed this dog to be around three quarter's red/ red nose Hemphill- Corvino-Red Devil and a quarter Tudor's Dibo.

I asked this fellow how many times did they repeat the breeding. Answer was only that time. Guy got busted and this bitch dog died on the chain behind a hog pen from lack of water and feed.

So pedigrees are sometimes not every thing unless you and the breeder know the right breeding. Chose to keep it private. Those who have good dogs with a correct pedigree, at least up to the fourth generation. Have a better chance of keeping a good bloodline going. Cheers

[ceasar]

Agreed CYJ

Man I hate these stories of dogs dying on the chain due to lack of feed, water or shelter
Good dogs or not gives me a real bad case of the Red Ass.

[WASH123]

Good dog a good dog period what where they before the paperwork

[State Bull]

We had a few very good dogs that we kept in the 70's..We bred them to.dogs without papers, but never to our other dogs.

[Frank43]

Pass. Find something that works with what I'm doing. Scatterbred dogs waste of feed in the long run.

[State Bull]

Pass. Find something that works with what I'm doing. Scattered dogs waste of feed in the long run.

I agree. Scatter bred dogs do not produce a sustainable line! That's been proven time after time. You have to have uniformity in the gene pool.