"Fast Lane"?

[STA8541]

What is meant by the term "fast lane" w/regard to the dogs? You hear a guy talk about "fast lane dogs" & such. Is it a hard mouthed barnstormer, a "destroyer" or "alligator" type that ends matches in :30 or less? Is it a certain level of elite competition, top kennels, etc.? Is "fast lane dog" contrasted w/"game dog"? I'm just a little confused by the term & any help understanding would be appreciated.

[bulldoghistorian]

its a made up thing just like top comp and all those other things

[hogdog]

its a certain level of competition

[Macker]

A dog that can hang with the best of them, one of those ones that you'd open to the world.

[loot]

To me it's all nonsense. If you have a dog that you believe-you can win with ,you just call the weight. If someone except that's it.I don't think no one would bring a dog that they don't believe in. An if they do that's on them. Jm2c

[Macker]

Funny enough I see guys all the time that get a half decent dog and then go out of there way to get it killed. Sometimes I think you need to recognise your dogs true ability and to manage him/her accordingly.

[STA8541]

Funny enough I see guys all the time that get a half decent dog and then go out of there way to get it killed. Sometimes I think you need to recognise your dogs true ability and to manage him/her accordingly.

I've heard it said that "A match well-made is a match half won." Thanks for all the replies, fellas.

[EWO]

I am not sure of the true definition of the 'fast lane', or if there is actually a true definition. The guy that turned me on to the dogs use to say, "Now that is a dog you ride up and down the road with". Maybe he meant. merge left and get into the left hand (fast) lane. Not sure. EWO

[STA8541]

Thanks very much, EWO.

[bulldoghistorian]

To me it's all nonsense. If you have a dog that you believe can win with you just call the weight. If someone except that's it.I don't think no one would bring a dog that they don't believe in. An if they do that's on them. Jm2c

exactly , same as that thing that popped up a few years ago about travelling
now we have global champ european champ

People have shown dogs all over the world for many years
25 years ago people like BH ,PP ,STB traveled back and forth to show dogs
none of em claimed global winners of European winners

but than again I have come to realize I am a dinosaur , I am becoming those old people that grab a mouse to point it at the computer screen thinking its a remote control

[STA8541]

People have shown dogs all over the world for many years
25 years ago people like BH ,PP ,STB traveled back and forth to show dogs
none of em claimed global winners of European winners

but than again I have come to realize I am a dinosaur , I am becoming those old people that grab a mouse to point it at the computer screen thinking its a remote control

You're no dinosaur. History is important. Need to know where you came from to see where you're going or should be going. The game changes, but gameness endures. Good post.

[ragedog10]

I've heard it said that "A match well-made is a match half won." Thanks for all the replies, fellas.

Would this not be considered spot picking?
If i have a half ass dog im going to look for some a half ass comp?
I see it like this if hes half ass and could only when by going into lesser level bulldogs then why call him/her? We cull what we dont think could swim with sharks! Thats what keeps are gene pool filled with winners and game BULLDOGS that will compete any were on gods green earth! Our pups know the wood even tho they never been to them before,why because that what we're breeding for box lovers its inbedded into their DNA!
Left lane,right lane fast lane, Bred for preformance they will ride out no matter were we are!
Ch Panthro has won in many places plus two diffrent countries with one hanger! If you gotta spot pick for a win your breeding program will suffer because you end up with a line that can only win into lesser comp! If its open and you can make it put the peddle to floor and see how your driving skills are on the open freeway!

[STA8541]

Fair enough.

[Officially Retired]

Would this not be considered spot picking?
If i have a half ass dog im going to look for some a half ass comp?
I see it like this if hes half ass and could only when by going into lesser level bulldogs then why call him/her? We cull what we dont think could swim with sharks! Thats what keeps are gene pool filled with winners and game BULLDOGS that will compete any were on gods green earth! Are pups know the wood even tho they never been to them before,why because that what we're breeding for box lovers its inbedded into their DNA!
Left lane,right lane fast lane, Bred for preformance they will ride out no matter were we are!
Ch Panthro has won in many places plus two diffrent countries with one hanger! If you gotta spot pick for a win your breeding program will suffer because you end up with a line that can only win into lesser comp! If its open and you can make it put the peddle to floor and see how your driving skills are on the open freeway!


Not necessarily.

To go into a sure loss is foolish. To go into a lame dog is spot-picking.

However, to go into a highly-regarded dog, in whom you see a weakness, that you feel your own dog can exploit is "smart management" ...

Jack

[ragedog10]

Yes it quoted the wrong post! Big hands small phone!:)
Your right if i see a weakness then i say go all in. Now if so and so has a buzz and is open to the world to see and you have a classmate b.u.t you have never seen so and so then why not step up to plate! Know if its clear to see your classmate cant compete with so and so because you have seen so and so with YOUR OWN two eyes, and your better half says he doesnt stand a day in hell with him then no! At times that can be a double edge because thats were the gamble comes in, if i know were game and dont have a second thought about the heart of mines im going all in why because our heart is in the right place and we wanna move this mountain that they said could not be moved!
All to often you have lack of great comp all because somebody want more$, or they want a titled contender or they cant or wont agree to this! Then they turn right around and party with a lame who they know they would smash!
Some times its ok to try to beat the unbeatable or break the unbreakable!

[Officially Retired]

Well said. If you think you have enough dog to beat the unbeatable, by all means.

And the latter is how "super fights" happen ... aka Titere vs Homer Balboa :)

[ragedog10]

^^^ case and point!

[bulldoghistorian]

Not necessarily.

To go into a sure loss is foolish. To go into a lame dog is spot-picking.

However, to go into a highly-regarded dog, in whom you see a weakness, that you feel your own dog can exploit is "smart management" ...

Jack

if I had a dog at home and got challenge to compete with someone I go
if I think I will loose that dog got no place on my yard

I've lost some , lost into 4 champs and 2 grand champs , I never thought I couldnt take em

[CrazyRed]

Fast lane term has been around for years just as Bush Leagues or back yard. Most people not in the "fast lane" are typically people who are against it. It means nothing, just as riding on the highway the speed limit is the same in both lanes but the left lane is the fast lane lol. You ride with what you can ride with whether that means you can afford the ticket, or you can afford the travel or have the means to. Just because you don't travel to all edges of the earth to get a win don't mean you don't have the best 38 in the world. Just because you do travel all across the globe dont mean you have the best 38, folks are too worried to be caught up in Labels and titles. Fast lane is just a term folks who have the means to pay a little extra to play use to seperate themselves from guys who BS on forfeits or purposely come in off weight or just like to play at the high end table. Doesn't mean for one second they have better dogs or handlers but it also doesn't mean that they don't. You can bust ass in a 1/4 race with your Factory Honda Civic beating all the folks in station wagons but when that Caparo hits the track he might tell you to get to your lane.. Do the best you can by your dogs and all the others will give you the accolades & titles.

[STA8541]

Do the best you can by your dogs and all the others will give you the accolades & titles.

Love this. Great post, thank you.

[Officially Retired]

if I had a dog at home and got challenge to compete with someone I go
if I think I will loose that dog got no place on my yard

I've lost some , lost into 4 champs and 2 grand champs , I never thought I couldnt take em


I admire your competitive spirit, but from a breeding standpoint this could be a big mistake.

I guarantee that dogs like Werdo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2159), Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=348), Frosty Paws (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=238) (are you noticing a breeding pattern similarity ;)), etc., etc. ALL have produced awesome, competitive animals in "the fast lane" ... yet never could have won in the fast lane.

They were all GAME, INBRED BUMS ... who had no real ability ... but they were DESIGNED TO PRODUCE ... and that is what they did.

If I ever get back into dogs, my yard will ALWAYS have room for inbred, prepotent producers ... but to each his own,

Jack

[CrazyRed]

I admire your competitive spirit, but from a breeding standpoint this could be a big mistake.

I guarantee that dogs like Werdo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2159), Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=348), Frosty Paws (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=238) (are you noticing a breeding pattern similarity ;)), etc., etc. ALL have produced awesome, competitive animals in "the fast lane" ... yet never could have won in the fast lane.

They were all GAME, INBRED BUMS ... who had no real ability ... but they were DESIGNED TO PRODUCE ... and that is what they did.

If I ever get back into dogs, my yard will ALWAYS have room for inbred, prepotent producers ... but to each his own,

Jack

Preach Jack, that's when you seperate the Chess & Checker players.

[ragedog10]

I do think inbred low abilty dog have a place in a breeding program and thats for gameness! If they have proven to be that! Also to add more of the said blood!
Now hears the thing if im looking for more of a Head,chest,throat style then does these low abilty/no style dog still have a place in ones breeding program? Besides being game and having the same name in a ped 20x's were would they fit in abreeding program thats based on style/gameness?

[Officially Retired]

I do think inbred low abilty dog have a place in a breeding program and thats for gameness! If they have proven to be that! Also to add more of the said blood!

It's not "having" the gameness, per se, that makes inbred brood dogs valuable ... because many authentically-game dogs simply can't throw their own gameness into their pups ...

Rather, it is these dogs being inbred on great dogs, known to THROW--gameness (ability, etc.) that makes them valuable.

If a dog is inbred on a low-percentage producer, that can't throw anything, then his "being inbred" means nothing worthwhile.

However, if the dog is inbred on a HIGH percentage-producer, and himself is game dog and comes from a high-percentage litter, then that dog is actually worth MORE than 98% of most match dogs in the brood pen :idea:





Now hears the thing if im looking for more of a Head,chest,throat style then does these low abilty/no style dog still have a place in ones breeding program?

If that's what you're selecting for, yes.





Besides being game and having the same name in a ped 20x's were would they fit in abreeding program thats based on style/gameness?

My breeding program has always been based on gameness and a head style ... and that is pretty much what my line has come to be known for ...

Jack

EDIT: You can pretty much get anything you repeatedly and consistently select for :)

[bulldoghistorian]

Preach Jack, that's when you seperate the Chess & Checker players.

don't understand what your saying
I assumed the chess player does long time thinking , planning ahead ?

[bulldoghistorian]

I do think inbred low abilty dog have a place in a breeding program and thats for gameness! If they have proven to be that! Also to add more of the said blood!
Now hears the thing if im looking for more of a Head,chest,throat style then does these low abilty/no style dog still have a place in ones breeding program? Besides being game and having the same name in a ped 20x's were would they fit in abreeding program thats based on style/gameness?

from the years I have been in the dogs there is one thing that drives me in breedings I make and that is consistency
the only way to get consistency for high ability is to breed only to those animals
if you constantly weed out those that are not able to win shows , the percentages get higher

There will always be exceptions to the rules and people tend to look at those exceptions to justify their particular breeding
but every working breed as far as I know uses the same rule

[Officially Retired]

from the years I have been in the dogs there is one thing that drives me in breedings I make and that is consistency
the only way to get consistency for high ability is to breed only to those animals
if you constantly weed out those that are not able to win shows , the percentages get higher

There will always be exceptions to the rules and people tend to look at those exceptions to justify their particular breeding
but every working breed as far as I know uses the same rule


Exceptions to the rules? I would say THE RULE is that highly-linbred dogs are the true producers in the sport, not the opposite.

Just curious, if you only utilize world-beating match dogs, why wasn't Moya's father (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13468) matched?

How do you explain the success Floyd Boudreaux's HIGHLY INBRED foundation dog, Blind Billy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=165), not being a world beater?
Do you know more than Floyd? Can you think of a more successful line than his?

What about the highly-linebred Little Gator (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1306)?
Have you built up a bigger legacy of wins than the owner of this COLD DOG?

How would you explain the success of Stone City's COLD, INBRED Awesome Baby (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=361), as being behind SO MANY Champions, ROMs, etc.

Historian, if you're going to live up to your name, you need to recognize that "inbred bums producing" is NOT "the exception" :idea:

Jack

[bulldoghistorian]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13468 was matched in the early 90's

The reason why I bred to him was basically to double up on the Oscar/ Scallywag litter and because I already had several winners of Sumo for example Ch Keyser Soze
I have to admit tough Sumo was a bum and was used that day to replace a dog that got sick , he was put up for sale straight after the show and nobody wanted him , not even me
he was given to a guy called Nasty Boy after a year or so with the rule that if he took care of sumo he would be given a match dog

a daughter of awesome baby came this way , she was cold as well , think she died here without having a single pup

[Officially Retired]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=13468 was matched in the early 90's

The reason why I bred to him was basically to double up on the Oscar/ Scallywag litter and because I already had several winners of Sumo for example Ch Keyser Soze
I have to admit tough Sumo was a bum and was used that day to replace a dog that got sick , he was put up for sale straight after the show and nobody wanted him , not even me
he was given to a guy called Nasty Boy after a year or so with the rule that if he took care of sumo he would be given a match dog


There you go ... but "the bum" is the one who produced your Grand Champion / Dog of the Year ... which no "match dog" has done for you yet, right? :mrgreen:

That is pretty much what I said two posts ago :)

Jack

[bulldoghistorian]

There you go ... but "the bum" is the one who produced your Grand Champion / Dog of the Year ... which no "match dog" has done for you yet, right? :mrgreen:

That is pretty much what I said two posts ago :)

Jack

I have to admit those are the facts
By the way although chosen I have refused the DOY title in later years , brings to much attention
but the moya dog up till today is the only gr.ch I had LOL

[Officially Retired]

I have to admit those are the facts
By the way although chosen I have refused the DOY title in later years , brings to much attention
but the moya dog up till today is the only gr.ch I had LOL


Funny story coming ... stay tuned :)

[Officially Retired]

Okay, when I interviewed Hardcore Kennels back in 2000, we discussed a lot of subjects, including breeding of course.

Big Mike told me he did NOT like inbreeding either, just like you, and pointed out his many accomplishments (ROMs, Ch's, etc.) using his 3-ways crosses.

However, at the time, despite a fabulous career, Mike lamented that had never produced a single Grand Champion yet ... and how he had always come up short, even with great dogs.

Well, it also happened to be the time he was campaigning Ch Nine Milli ... who eventually became Gr Ch Nine Milli DOY (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7498) ... and I pointed out to Mike that (ahem) Nine Milli was an inbred aunt/nephew breeding (Redman and Felony were littermates) ;)

Just sayin' :mrgreen:

Jack

PS: You will almost invariably notice that the best dogs in the world are either inbred, or based off of inbred dogs. Almost without exception.

[bulldoghistorian]

Okay, when I interviewed Hardcore Kennels back in 2000, we discussed a lot of subjects, including breeding of course.

Big Mike told me he did NOT like inbreeding either, just like you, and pointed out his many accomplishments (ROMs, Ch's, etc.) using his 3-ways crosses.

However, at the time, despite a fabulous career, Mike lamented that had never produced a single Grand Champion yet ... and how he had always come up short, even with great dogs.

Well, it also happened to be the time he was campaigning Ch Nine Milli ... who eventually became Gr Ch Nine Milli DOY (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7498) ... and I pointed out to Mike that (ahem) Nine Milli was an inbred aunt/nephew breeding (Redman and Felony were littermates) ;)

Just sayin' :mrgreen:

Jack

PS: You will almost invariably notice that the best dogs in the world are either inbred, or based off of inbred dogs. Almost without exception.

spoke to him once , someone referred him to me on raw feeding during the keep
he sounded like a true competitor
send me a thank you note and a pic of the dog after he won , dog looked stunning

his record is amazing
PS I never had a rom dog either but came damn close once 2 failed reaching their championship , just needed one more point

who knows maybe one day

[ragedog10]

You have to agree with that, and great point on their first grch was with that auntie/nephew breeding! Time has shown us, the breeding of auntie/nephew and uncle/niece is when you really get to see a line root itself! Also that breeding way sometimes has a better out come then a father/daughter or mother/son breeding!
Bottom line is Hardcore started with a solid family of bulldogs! Maybe someone can tell us why it is that when you do that inbreeding there " if done with a solid family behind them" is when all the magic happens!
Now i pose the same question to all, Do you do a inbreeding on two very game bums who are outta a very solid family of chest dogs? Both bums are a all over dumb if you will game gotta snuff them out type. If i breed these two bums together will i get what the line is know for or will i have more crazy all over game bums?
Jack your line is know to be tuff head dogs, but now you have a very tuff fight your toe dog and have a niece to this male who is very tuff but all she wants is the left leg. Is it a gamble or based on their family backing you pretty much know that your going to get a Head hunter?

[ragedog10]

I have read your other post on the matter so i know what your answer will be,but for those that have not gotten around to reading some of the older post

[FrostyPaws]

Rage, that's way too many variables to answer. Frosty Paws was dumber than a box of hammers. I've had dogs off him just like that, but like him, they didn't reproduce that particular ignorance when bred. If I have 2 game bums off Frosty, will I breed them? Without a doubt. I've bred 2 quality dogs off Frosty and gotten bums like him, but that's the price of doing business at times. While, in the long run, breeding those types of dogs will give me more like that, it will also continue to nail down the type of gameness that I want my dogs to be based around. I don't make particular breedings for match dogs. If I get those, that's great. Even when I get match quality dogs, I don't always want, or need, to match them. They are dogs I throw back in my program to continue breeding. Not only do they have the gameness I want, but they also have the match qualities I want in a dog, so I'm effectively killing two birds with one stone.

What I hear, at times, is how do I know if they're match dogs? They may not win vs another man's dog. Once a person has been successful for a certain amount of years, they tend to know what quality dogs are for the most part. Those guys don't have to match every quality dog they have to know it's a quality dog. They've been around quality dogs long enough to know what that looks like when it pops up. The best dog I've ever owned, and one of the best I've ever SEEN, was never matched once. Now, probably given it all over to do again, maybe I would've matched her instead of trying to get pups from her. Doesn't really matter at this point, but I saw her do things in such a way that I'd never seen another dog do in all my years with dogs.

The point is that over time, the more you select for one type of animal, the more you'll get that type of animal. Always try to remember that and you'll be fine if you stick with it.

[30orless]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=42401 this is a fastlane dog he gets it done ,

[Pit Bull Committed]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=42401 this is a fastlane dog he gets it done ,
Thanks for sharing but I don't believe a pedigree can determine whether a dog is fast lane or not. Please do share details if you don't mind? :-)

[STA8541]

The point is that over time, the more you select for one type of animal, the more you'll get that type of animal. Always try to remember that and you'll be fine if you stick with it.

This is gold. Thank you for the post.

[Officially Retired]

Once a person has been successful for a certain amount of years, they tend to know what quality dogs are for the most part. Those guys don't have to match every quality dog they have to know it's a quality dog. They've been around quality dogs long enough to know what that looks like when it pops up. The best dog I've ever owned, and one of the best I've ever SEEN, was never matched once.

Yep.

For years (decades, now) I've heard nay-sayers say that because "I" don't match dogs that my dogs "can't be" fast lane ... and for every single one of those years, bar none, I have bred better dogs and produced dogs that BEAT "dog fighters' dogs" time and again, almost 9-1.

I simply know what winning traits are, how to maintain them in a family of dogs, and can see if they're there or not in practice with each individual in each successive generation.
By contrast, most people never stick with anything long enough to get to know it, master it, and so are forever playing "guessing games" with their random and pointless breeding decisions.





The point is that over time, the more you select for one type of animal, the more you'll get that type of animal. Always try to remember that and you'll be fine if you stick with it.

This is absolutely the truth.

And it is especially the truth if you stick with the same family (or winning combo), and select from individuals know to have (and produce) those traits.

Breeding to "a dog" with some traits you like (with a spotty background for them) is a rougher deal ... but breeding to yet another individual with these traits, full of similar dogs in his litter, and in his background, makes getting "the kind of dogs you want" a cinch.

I used to say, "I could produce better dogs from an accidental kennel breeding in my sleep than what MOST people produce traveling, paying stud fees, and mixing bloodlines," ... and, yeah, it was kinda funny to say ... but I wasn't joking.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

You have to agree with that, and great point on their first grch was with that auntie/nephew breeding!

Why thank you :hatsoff:




Time has shown us, the breeding of auntie/nephew and uncle/niece is when you really get to see a line root itself! Also that breeding way sometimes has a better out come then a father/daughter or mother/son breeding!

Yep. The Yellow/Breaker breeding produced Hardcore's best dog ever Ch Redman (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3003). (That is what he told me first hand: Redman was the finest fighting machine he ever had.). In breeding Ch Mystic (Redman/Snowball) back to Felony (Redman's sister), Mike essentially tightened up 3/4 on this best breeding combination ever (Yellow/Breaker) to create Nine Milli (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7498), his only Grand Champion.

Whether Aunt/Nephew or Uncle/Niece is "better" than either father/daughter or mother/son, I don't know about that.
It is similar, but I wouldn't say better, as there have been awesomely talented/prepotent father/daughter and mother/son dogs put out there ...





Bottom line is Hardcore started with a solid family of bulldogs! Maybe someone can tell us why it is that when you do that inbreeding there " if done with a solid family behind them" is when all the magic happens!

Exactly. There is no point on inbreeding on mediocrity :lol:





Now i pose the same question to all, Do you do a inbreeding on two very game bums who are outta a very solid family of chest dogs? Both bums are a all over dumb if you will game gotta snuff them out type. If i breed these two bums together will i get what the line is know for or will i have more crazy all over game bums?

I would never, ever, ever inbreed on bums.

You inbreed on GREAT dogs, PREPOTENT dogs, you never inbreed on bums.

You can "use" a bum that is inbred on great dogs ... and get greatness again in doing so ... but if you start inbreeding on "bumness" (lol) ... and you start solidifying those traits ... then pretty soon you will have a yardful of bums :lol:

People like Bulldog Historian correctly point out that you need to breed FOR match dogs.
But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to breed TO a match dog to GET a match dog.
A particular dog like Werdo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2159), who is a bum inbred on a GREAT dog, and a great breeding combination, can oftentimes produce great dogs ... as Werdo did.

However, that doesn't mean you start inbreeding on Werdo :lol:
You just use him as a tool, but you never want to get sidetracked and start breeding for bums.
The more you start breeding TO bums, the more you start breeding FOR bums.

It's a delicate situation ... and therein lies the paradox ... use the tool, but use it sparingly :idea:





Jack your line is know to be tuff head dogs, but now you have a very tuff fight your toe dog and have a niece to this male who is very tuff but all she wants is the left leg. Is it a gamble or based on their family backing you pretty much know that your going to get a Head hunter?

I eventually got to the point I would get rid of dogs for not immediately fighting the head.
They don't have to be aces, but I do not want a leg dog.
I would overlook the first few rolls, as they're just learning, but after they had their bearings, if I saw "a front leg shaker" I would sell it cheap as a "dud" from my program.
It simply was NOT what I wanted.

Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152) never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the ear, on the muzzle, or in the throat. Period.
Icon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3887) never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the ear, or in the throat. Period.
U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540), never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the face, in the mouth, on the ear, or in the throat. Period.

You get what you breed for :mrgreen:

Jack

[STA8541]

I eventually got to the point I would get rid of dogs for not immediately fighting the head.
They don't have to be aces, but I do not want a leg dog.
I would overlook the first few rolls, as they're just learning, but after they had their bearings, if I saw "a front leg shaker" I would sell it cheap as a "dud" from my program.
It simply was NOT what I wanted.

Silverback (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=152) never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the ear, on the muzzle, or in the throat. Period.
Icon (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3887) never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the ear, or in the throat. Period.
U-Nhan-Rha (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=540), never grabbed a front leg in his life. He was on the face, in the mouth, on the ear, or in the throat. Period.

You get what you breed for :mrgreen:

Jack

This was truly informative. I had no idea you could breed for style of battle. I have heard of breeding for mouth, so I guess breeding for a specific style makes sense. I always thought that if you chased teeth all the time, or stifles, or heads, or what have you, the gameness of your stock suffered. Maybe start w/really game dogs (of whatever style) & then "layer on" preferred style w/dogs that fight w/whatever style you're looking for as you go? I am obviously no breeder, lol.

U-Nhan-Rha is a good looking little dog.

[Officially Retired]

This was truly informative.

It was designed to be :)




I had no idea you could breed for style of battle.

Most people don't, which is why most people never get consistency: they don't breed for it.




I have heard of breeding for mouth, so I guess breeding for a specific style makes sense. I always thought that if you chased teeth all the time, or stifles, or heads, or what have you, the gameness of your stock suffered.

I don't chase anything; I started with an absolutely game, primo head dog ... from absolutely game stock ... that absolutely threw extreme percentages of gameness.

So I stuck with that :)

The gameness only "suffers" if (say) I have a head dog that isn't game ... and decide to keep using him. (Or a mouthy dog that isn't game, but keep using them.)

But I have always had an eye for extreme gameness, and I have always kept only those dogs that I felt in my bones were extremely game.

This doesn't mean I beat my dogs half to death by doing crazy horrible things to them; it means I gave them reasonable and controlled tests and never saw a bad move.

That, combined with the style I selected, has kept them in the winner's circle for 2+ decades straight.




Maybe start w/really game dogs (of whatever style) & then "layer on" preferred style w/dogs that fight w/whatever style you're looking for as you go? I am obviously no breeder, lol

That is exactly right: I started with extremely game stock (Ch Hammer x Hollingsworth's only true 3/4 Lady In Red bitch, Trinx) that exhibited the style I liked.
Poncho had an all-controlling ear style; his two sisters Missy and Ruby had devastating face styles.
I have always kept and bred for this ever since.

Only with The Gorilla did I start to breed for killer finish ... but I never spent the time refining it.

I am 100% positive I could have, had I kept a large yard, and kept selecting for it.





U-Nhan-Rha is a good looking little dog.

Thank you.

[STA8541]

I started with an absolutely game, primo head dog ... from absolutely game stock ... that absolutely threw extreme percentages of gameness.

So I stuck with that :)

Good job, lol. You're talking about Poncho, right?


I have always kept only those dogs that I felt in my bones were extremely game.

This doesn't mean I beat my dogs half to death by doing crazy horrible things to them; it means I gave them reasonable and controlled tests and never saw a bad move.

It has been said that a seasoned dogman who says he "never saw a bad move" speaks volumes w/the phrase. Far more so than some amateur who bought a dog b/c it was the color of his wife's hair! And so I shall take you at your word. Hard-nosed selectivity is key w/any breeding program.


That is exactly right: I started with extremely game stock (Ch Hammer x Hollingsworth's only true 3/4 Lady In Red bitch, Trinx) that exhibited the style I liked.
Poncho had an all-controlling ear style; his two sisters Missy and Ruby had devastating face styles.
I have always kept and bred for this ever since.

I got it right! :D And knowing what you wanted, & that you could breed for it, w/out losing gameness, is obviously why you've gotten long-term consistency: you bred for it. Question: if a fellow preferred a hard-driving chest or shoulder dog as his favored combatant, could that guy breed for it? Using the exact same formula of always starting w/good game stock w/that style, then selecting for it as you go (using only the game dogs that come down)? It stands to reason that you could, but I was wondering what your thoughts were on it.


Only with The Gorilla did I start to breed for killer finish ... but I never spent the time refining it.

I am 100% positive I could have, had I kept a large yard, and kept selecting for it.

You like a head dog to finish in the throat, correct? Given your track record, I'm sure you could have bred that finish into them too.


Thank you.

Anytime.

[Macker]

I've heared it said Norman Kemmer culled anything that didn't start up by 12 or 13 months and anything that fought the head, he wanted balls out chest dogs with loads of mouth and I think he achieved that. I believe he had a super record of 27 straight wins with 1 loss and then another 10 or 11 on the trot.

Just another example of knowing your line and what to look for.
We had/have some kemmer dogs and in there pure form they seriously lack durability, they were thick winded, they have paper skin and they're very hard to save after a show, nearly like they lack the will to keep going. I've heard stories of them dying from the cold in other countries.

When we crossed them back into our own stuff we started getting more durable types of dogs, we quickly learned how to tell as a young pup which ones would turn out like the kemmer type mainly by the fine skin. When you get to know your dogs and your line you get to know what to look out for in your pups.

My point being Mr Kemmer wanted a dog that got the job done fast but I think the line may have suffered in other areas, well the ones we had did anyway.

[Officially Retired]

Well said Macker.

I have heard of Kemmer culling for the things you mentioned, which always struck me as bizarre. (Especially if they lacked durability.)

To breed dogs that go balls-out with no durability would be like breeding boxers who "go apeshit" in there, with no chin.
Fun to watch, and I could see them winning in numbers like that in the bushleagues, but I don't see how they could ever win (or last) against the best.

My Coca Cola dogs were like that: they would decimate almost everything they went into.
Balls out, never took a backward step, always hunting for your guts or kidneys.
Other people would pick up in :05 to :10, with their garden-variety trash getting totally overwhelmed ...
However, Coca Cola dogs ALWAYS came up short against my top shelf Poncho dogs ... which were head specialists, with extreme air, smarts, and durability.
It would always be the same ... fun to watch for :15 - :20 ... and then a tired, helpess Coki dog being figured-out, rendered-ineffective, and starting to run out of gas and finding itself helpless ...

The very best dogs I had were a mix of Coki dogs and Poncho dogs: dogs with extreme body strength that "could" go for kill spots, but who would first grab the head, feel you out, and then go right for your weakness ... when you exposed it. They were awesome, all around animals.

IMO, those relentless, high-pressure dogs only look good at a certain level ... but they set themselves up to lose against top shelf dogs by wasting too much energy.

Jack

[evolutionkennels]

I've heared it said Norman Kemmer culled anything that didn't start up by 12 or 13 months and anything that fought the head, he wanted balls out chest dogs with loads of mouth and I think he achieved that. I believe he had a super record of 27 straight wins with 1 loss and then another 10 or 11 on the trot.

Just another example of knowing your line and what to look for.
We had/have some kemmer dogs and in there pure form they seriously lack durability, they were thick winded, they have paper skin and they're very hard to save after a show, nearly like they lack the will to keep going. I've heard stories of them dying from the cold in other countries.

When we crossed them back into our own stuff we started getting more durable types of dogs, we quickly learned how to tell as a young pup which ones would turn out like the kemmer type mainly by the fine skin. When you get to know your dogs and your line you get to know what to look out for in your pups.

My point being Mr Kemmer wanted a dog that got the job done fast but I think the line may have suffered in other areas, well the ones we had did anyway.



absolutely not. . You couldn't be farther from the truth. the Kemmer were much more stupid than that. Norman and later Mitch were complete sociopaths. they were the stupidest dogmen to grace our planet. They lied on pedigrees, they culled anything from 6 weeks and up that ram away from the pen when you approached it. From the first roll.. if it went ONE time to the ear or head or muzzle.. . They would cull it. if the dog was overpowered in the actual match, and went to the head to recover, and came back to win in the throat or backend.. They would cull it after the show for having gone to the head. they weren't dogmen, they were fucking idiots that read the confederate Bible every night before bed and hunted African Americans for sport. Mitch had a shirt that had a pictureoof MLK on the front that said.. He had a dream, the back had the same picture but with crosshairs.. Said.. ours came true. Anyhow.. even after years of culling anything that went to the head... They still got half head dogs.. at the end Mitch was disgusted and sold all to a guy in northern California who still has them today. And the record was complete bullshit.. They lost more than they won because of the quality of dogs and decision making of Mitch, they did bring them right, and they were prepared with a written plan for anythingtthat could happen, but the judgement on dogs and confederate madness mixed in with dog ideology was their undoing.

Macker... Send me a what's app message. I'll send you audio

[Macker]

Lol they sound like a couple of villains from a dukes of hazzord show hahaha, you have a way with words evolution.

[Macker]

It's hard to describe how these dogs would go in a show, they where one track mind, to stupid to take a head hold. But the worst part was that they wouldn't be bet for wind, they're body's would just give up on them. They where 20 minute dogs, we once had one go 40 and have it all his own way, and after the show we where lucky to save him, you'd swear he'd just had a 2 hour war.

[Officially Retired]

I never saw a Kemmer dog go, but heard about their philosophy.

I didn't understand how, conceptually, they could ever hope to succeed against a truly good dog with their game plan.

To cull any dog for wanting to control the head is retarded. Literally.
Any smart dog will do that if he's in there with a good dog that can hurt him back.

Best I can tell, the Cajun Rules is a NO TIME LIMIT contest.
Best I can tell, you have to keep going, and you have to keep scratching, if you're in there with an equal.

Sure, it's nice to have super-strong, powerful dogs... but other people have super-strong, powerful dogs too sometimes :shocked:

So you also have to have some tricks, some savvy, and some staying power to outlast an otherwise physical equal ... you can't just think you can mow everybody down.
And so to breed for a style (and lack of durability) that GUARANTEES you can't last is pretty stupid IMO ... for a no-time-limit contest.

Jack

(Didn't want to be so blunt, but since Evo went there, I figured why not? :lol:)

[EWO]

The guy that turned me onto the dogs dealt with Norman Kemmer back in the day. He beat him in like 40 minutes or so. When I saw the mention of his record I was not sure but did not know enough to say otherwise. He told me they were pretty much swinging for the fence and if they did not hit the homerun early they quit or were mauled. He did say you better have a hard biting head dog or they would bust you up quickly.

I had not heard the Kemmer name for a number of years but the jist of the Evolution post was told to me many years ago. Even down to the diatribes about the Confederacy and their views on 'culture'.

EWO

[EWO]

As far as their breeding methods they were just like some of the top breeders in the world. They picked a trait/traits and bred for them. In turn thy culled for what did not turn out that way. So when you breed for traits from within a family over time you will get those traits. If you choose to keep doing that and continue to pile up the losses. that part can get retarded.

thru selection you get what you want. Selection of the bad works the same as selection for the good. You pretty much get what you ask for. EWO

[evolutionkennels]

sorry.. But it is what it is.... beating the Kemmers. is no big deal, it's like bearing a special Olympian

[evolutionkennels]

Macker,

what did you think of the audio?

[Officially Retired]

I heard that Norman Kemmer was actually a gentleman at pit side, but that his son Mitch was the absolutely unbearable prick.

Not to sidetrack, but just sayin ...

[evolutionkennels]

Jack, download what's app on your phone and send me a message . . . I'll send you some audiotthat will make you fall out of your chair. it's worth it trust me.

[bulldoghistorian]

Friend of mine was in the states , visiting a show together with a well known dogman
son of Norman kemmer would come along jumped in the car with some racist t-shirt on

show was in Detroit area , well you can imagine the ruckus

[Macker]

The audio is priceless evo, the hills have eyes comes to mind hahaha