What do you think about my dogs pedigree?

[red504]

Hey all,
I am pretty green to the bulldog world. I got my dog through some family connections around 2008. From what I know there was some disagreement about the breeding and papers, so I got a free pick of the litter. As a pup Red was the more dominate in the litter, nobody eat before he did. Nowadays even though he lives a laid back life, Red is an athletic beast. I have babied Red throughout the years and for the most part he has been a house dog. Red is getting older in age. I have seen what he can do, and I know that he is what I want to base my future yard off of. I know he is getting older and I want pups off of him b4 its too late. My connection has a dog that they really want to breed to, but I want to make sure that I get a good dog, based on the fact I want Red to be the foundation of my yard and this is prob. the only breeding ill be able to do with him.

If I am going to put another bulldog on this earth, I want to do the gamedog breed justice and do it right. I am growing more and more passionate about these dogs and their history everyday. I just want to learn, so sorry if I'm asking stupid questions.

What can you guys tell me about my dogs based on his pedigree?
What can be said about the iron line dogs on his bottom side?
What bloodline would try to lean toward when breeding him?

Thanks for the help.

[gotap_d]

Only you know if your dog deserves to be bred or not but instead of trying to rush and breed him to something or maybe only getting one breeding off of him why dont you bank his semen? There wodnt be a rush on finding a female and you can possibly vet more than one breeding off of him. As for the ped i dont know much about the bottom other than some guys in fl i used to know swore by that Check blood.

[Officially Retired]

My thoughts are you should first have the sense to enter the pedigree of your dog here, and then post the link :idea:

Jack

[Macker]

My thoughts are you should first have the sense to enter the pedigree of your dog here, and then post the link :idea:

Jack

lol I was thinking something similar and waiting on that reply.

I'm just doing the maths here, did you get your dog as a pup in 2008? If so he's only 6, you have plenty of time left with him, our main stud is 11 in 2015 and we have 12 week old pups off him, there was 8 pups in that litter.

As for actually building your yard around this dog, only you can know the actual quality of this animal and weather or not he's worth building a yard around. Some pictures of the dog would be nice, for all we know he could have three eyes and two tails. It's hard to give an opinion on a dog just by looking at a pedigree, champions produce curs and curs produce champions.

Use your head and not your heart when deciding. Apart from being a great companion to you, what other traits does this dog posses to make him a worthy foundation dog for your yard and exactly what are you trying to achieve within your line of bulldogs.

[ragedog10]

Pedigree would of been nice. But to answer you honestly most new guys all believe their first bulldog is the best dog ever to grace the earth. Any dog regardless of blood line should only be bred based on their merits and when breeding you have to know about the dogs in the pedigree what were they known ect....I say this often if you or anyone has to ask strangers on the internet if you should breed your dog then the answer is no don't breed him, the pounds are full dogs who have come off breeding s like the one you might do. This is not a insult but rather a call for you to learn more about these dogs so you can make better more informed decisions.

[Officially Retired]

Hey all,
I am pretty green to the bulldog world. I got my dog through some family connections around 2008. From what I know there was some disagreement about the breeding and papers, so I got a free pick of the litter. As a pup Red was the more dominate in the litter, nobody eat before he did. Nowadays even though he lives a laid back life, Red is an athletic beast. I have babied Red throughout the years and for the most part he has been a house dog. Red is getting older in age. I have seen what he can do, and I know that he is what I want to base my future yard off of. I know he is getting older and I want pups off of him b4 its too late. My connection has a dog that they really want to breed to, but I want to make sure that I get a good dog, based on the fact I want Red to be the foundation of my yard and this is prob. the only breeding ill be able to do with him.

If I am going to put another bulldog on this earth, I want to do the gamedog breed justice and do it right. I am growing more and more passionate about these dogs and their history everyday. I just want to learn, so sorry if I'm asking stupid questions.

What can you guys tell me about my dogs based on his pedigree?
What can be said about the iron line dogs on his bottom side?
What bloodline would try to lean toward when breeding him?

Thanks for the help.

I agree with Macker and Ragedog here:


1) Only you can know the actual quality of your own dogs;
2) If you are asking, "Should I breed this dog?", questions, then you shouldn't be breeding dogs.

To these two basics I would also add, most pit bulls are athletic (compared to other breeds), so I am not convinced that this dog is athletic when compared to world class dogs within his own breed. I have never, at any time, asked other people how to breed my own dogs, even as a rank beginner. In fact, I pissed a lot of well-known breeders off precisely by ignoring their "advice" and making my own decisions, based upon my own assessments of my own dogs, and analyzing what I believed was the best way to go with them, genetically ... and (ultimately) I created a line of dogs that whipped what these venerated dogmen were putting out, more often than not.

So the best advice I could give would be 1) Read The 5 Keys to Success (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/content.php?243), 2) Make sure you truly do understand your dog's job, and 3) Make sure your dog truly is capable of performing "that job" at a competitive level with the best to be had in the sport ... if you're truly want "to do the gamedog breed justice and do it right."

Jack

[Officially Retired]

To this I would also add that, part of the satisfaction of being a breeder is when YOUR ideas prove worthy ...

Ultimately, no one here can predict how your dog will produce (even if he's a good dog). Therefore,


Ask yourself, honestly, if you really know what a good dog is;
Ask yourself, honestly, if you've really evaluated your dog's abilities;
Ask yourself, honestly, if your dog is way above average in at least 2 major categories (Gameness, Stamina, Durability, Athleticism, Intelligence, Mouth, Finish)

If the answer to all 3 of these questions is an HONEST "YES" ... then breed with confidence, make your own breeding decisions, and let the results prove your judgment, one way or another.

If the answer to any of these questions is, "I don't know," then get that/those question/s answered, and breed away if all answer/s come/s back YES.

If the answer to the last question ultimately becomes NO, and the dog proves unworthy, then keep enjoying him as a pet, but use another dog to breed to.

Jack

[Macker]

I totally agree with Jack's post but there's just one point I'd add to it, where Jack said "Ask yourself, honestly, if your dog is way above average in at least 2 major categories (Gameness, Stamina, Durability, Athleticism, Intelligence, Mouth, Finish)"
I would add this if a dog has is way above average in any two of these areas or even 4 or 5 of them but does not poses gameness then I wouldn't breed from the dog, I take gameness almost as the most important foundation in any line of bulldogs.

I'm not saying we can not breed from a dog that hasn't been checked and tested but I do believe that if a dog is proven to be not game then it should not be bred from it should be culled or if for some bizarre reason you love the dog and can't bring yourself to cull it then neuter it so it can never do harm to the breed by being bred from.

[Officially Retired]

That's a good addendum, Macker.

I did not mean to imply that people should breed to talented curs, I meant to say that a dog should be way above average in at least TWO of the above categories, and "acceptable" in all the others.

For example, I never checked Silverback's oil to the extent I could say he was "way above average" in his gameness.
There was simply nothing his size that could stay with him, that I saw anyway.

All I can say is, Silverback was absolutely intense, absolutely dangerous, and absolutely determined TO WIN :exclamation:
He never turned, and he never hesitated to make any scratch at any time ... to a pretty fair degree of exhaustion ...
And the only dogs he ever had to scratch into were 4-lb bigger than he was ... while everything else his size was picked up to save its life between :06 - :12.

Therefore, I would rate Silverback WAY, WAY above average in Athleticism, Intelligence, and Finish ... with the other marks either being at least average (or unknown).

As a producer, Silverback produced legitimately dead game dogs, winners that had to come from way behind to win, as well as dogs that absolutely decimated their opponents.
(In fact, no dog off Silverback, that's been matched, has ever lost.)

I think that any dog should be rated at least an "average/acceptable" level, across the board, with at least 2 traits being way, way above average, to make that dog stand a chance at producing something that can decisively beat something in open competition.

I would place intelligence, air, and athleticism at the head of those things that, beyond gameness, will ensure a victory.
With some dogs it's going to be mouth/finish, with others it'll be stamina/brains, with others durability/unbelievable gameness, etc.

In the early days, I always made extreme gameness the backbone of my line ...
But later on I made intelligence/air/athleticism/style the "extras," which (IMO) elevated my line from a 57% win record (in 1997) to an 87% win record (by 2001) ... to present.

Jack

[Macker]

I totally understand what your saying, when you truly get to know your line of dogs you know exactly what your looking for your looking for and what breeding choices to make.

[Officially Retired]

:D

[red504]

I know that I am talking to men who have dedicated their lives to learning and breeding gamedogs, and I am humbly doing so. Thank you.

I posted my original post about 1 hour after I bought my first subscription to this site. Thus didn't take the time to upload Red's ped. Sorry. I have since tried but ran into a problem with Reds dad being under two different names (or something), but I have reached out for some help...so as soon as I get that figured out ill upload his ped.

Jack I just read The 5 Keys to Success and it was truly an eye opening read. Thanks

I do love my dog. I have keep him away from the ppl who gave him to me who have begged me to let him hunt. I did not let them, due to me being afraid of him getting hurt. Recently he slipped his leash and ran into a neighbors pit/mix. He was happier than I ever seen him. I realized then that if I truly loved my dog, I need to let him hunt and show everybody how good of a hunting dog he is. That is when I started joining forums and trying to learn as much as I can.

I know that some ppl said "if ya have to ask strangers on the internet....." WELL not everybody is fortunate to have a true dogman at their side that they TRUST who has their best interest in mind.

By learning as much as I can, using the ONLY resources I have, I am doing the best I can to "manage the intangibles" by not letting someone let me put my dog to a hunt without his and my best interest at heart.

I now realize that time is not as crucial as I thought. Because dogs produce later in life than I thought. I have allot to learn and I will not breed him until I am ready.

Pics coming when I get home.

Thanks for all the help

Respectfully,
RED504

[Macker]

Looking forward to seeing the pics man.

[red504]

Here are some pics I took on a few days ago.

[red504]

a few more pics of my RED.

[red504]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=43701

I'm having trouble putting the photos that I just uploaded to this forum into his pedigree. It says that file is larger that 150. Can someone please help with that? Thanks.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for putting up the pedigree.

You can add 4 of his photos if you'd like.

I will provide further comment later on ...

Jack

[Nut]

I'm having trouble putting the photos that I just uploaded to this forum into his pedigree. It says that file is larger that 150. Can someone please help with that? Thanks.

open it in paint, and resize picture to smaller size.

[SGC]

Nice looking dog… and you have gotten some good responses here to consider.

I'll add a little too. If you are thinking of basing a "yard" on your male, do you have the space and time to devote to a yard of dogs? Having one dog as a pet is far different than having a yard of bulldogs. What if the bitch has 10 pups? What would you do with them all?

Giving them to friends and family is not always the best choice and often results in bulldogs running loose and getting in trouble. These dogs are not for everyone. It takes a lot of time and dedication to bred a line and keep a yard. Would you be able to cull (kill) the pups or dogs that did not work out?

It is all part of being a breeder… Plus it helps to study genetics and what the great breeders of the past have put together.

Looking quickly at the pedigree you posted, it looks a bit scatterbred to me. So how would you breed him? Back to his mother? To another unrelated bitch? Study how line breeding and family breeding works, and also inbreeding, which is an important tool to "set" a line.

This thread will help with some of that --

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107-gt-gt-gt-%29%29%29-Great-Articles-on-Breeding-Dogs-%28%28%28-lt-lt-lt

Another thought… does he really need to be bred? What make him worthy of breeding?

I've owned some well bred dogs in the past but never bred them. A couple were worth breeding but most were not, even though they were good dogs in their own right. I was also told by old timers back in the day that "you can buy a better dog than you can breed yourself". Meaning that serious breeders know what they are doing.

There is a huge amount of "pit bulls" out there. Go look in any shelter, the majority of dogs there are pit bulls and pit mixes… most of which end up being put down. And many of them came from well meaning people who bred 2 dogs for whatever reason.

With today's negative perception of pit bulls and what they are bred to do, one should consider if starting a yard of bulldogs is a good idea…

Not to trample your dreams but these are real life things to be considered.

And again, these dogs are not for everyone.

Is Red your first pit bull?

[red504]

You all are right. Im going to sit back and learn for a while. Im not interested in breeding RED at this time anymore. I am going to research line breeding and if i have any questions i will post them on a new forum. Thanks.

[red504]

Yes red is my first.

[Officially Retired]

He's actually a pretty good looking dog, and has a decent chance to be a good one.

I've certainly seen worse pedigrees.

Jack