Breeding young dogs

[MISTER]

I decided to start this thread as this convo was taking over another member's thread. I for one don't condone this practice however I know it's been done with success. If someone gonna breed a young gyp to an old male to preserve the blood, ok I understand but when it's made a common practice that's where it becomes a problem. These dogs aren't for just anyone who has the coin to purchase their next fad. It pains me to see this great breed sold for monetary gain. Each breeding we make should be to improve the breed so how do a person know what they're improving on if the individuals aren't even fully developed yet?

PS. Please be respectful, I know this is a highly debatable topic and folks aren't gonna see eye to eye

[brokeback]

I'm with you, MISTER, maybe if a certain situation called for it but I surely wouldn't make a habit of it. And every single dog would stay with me. None leaving the yard.

[ragedog10]

Great job for starting this over here.

There was a thread that was shut down about what makes a stud dog a stud. Got pretty heated, I thought it made for good convo!

I dont like breeding two puppies (anything under a year) For the simple fact that we have a very well bred male that could fetch top $ if we open him up for stud! Now this well bred male is the work of a great kennel who used the practice of breeding two young dogs because they wanted to a female to bred back to the great,great grandsire. Now the problem is these pups off the two young dogs are freaking four years old and act like freaking puppies still! Is this do to the fact that they were off two puppies? I dont know cant say for sure! Wat i do know is he was a gift,hes well bred and acts like a pup at four going on five!

This i will say I see no problem was a young gyp taking to a older PROVEN STUD! And by proven stud i mean a stud that have thrown wat he himself and his line are know to be!
How can a 11month old pup be at stud when he himself is not fully filled out! Most pups at that age has that funny look to them! Lol
Now i would like to see some dogs that came off young dogs and worked and not just one in the breeding but were the breed produced muti winners that they themself ptoduced also!
Thanks,

[MISTER]

Great job for starting this over here.

There was a thread that was shut down about what makes a stud dog a stud. Got pretty heated, I thought it made for good convo!

I dont like breeding two puppies (anything under a year) For the simple fact that we have a very well bred male that could fetch top $ if we open him up for stud! Now this well bred male is the work of a great kennel who used the practice of breeding two young dogs because they wanted to a female to bred back to the great,great grandsire. Now the problem is these pups off the two young dogs are freaking four years old and act like freaking puppies still! Is this do to the fact that they were off two puppies? I dont know cant say for sure! Wat i do know is he was a gift,hes well bred and acts like a pup at four going on five!

This i will say I see no problem was a young gyp taking to a older PROVEN STUD! And by proven stud i mean a stud that have thrown wat he himself and his line are know to be!
How can a 11month old pup be at stud when he himself is not fully filled out! Most pups at that age has that funny look to them! Lol
Now i would like to see some dogs that came off young dogs and worked and not just one in the breeding but were the breed produced muti winners that they themself ptoduced also!
Thanks,

Breeding young dogs has nothing to do with them acting like puppies at 4yrs of age lol. I can't breed 2 young dogs together bc I wanna know what the individuals will bring to the table, folks can get away with that for only so long no matter how much they know the line they're breeding. Also how can a person tell what an animal gonna be at a year old? I have a couple youngsters now that I think a lot of especially the female who will be 2yrs old in May, she's had a couple heat cycles and the thought hasn't crossed my mind to breed her(yes I know her ped from top top to bottom especially the bottom) bc there's a few more things I wish to see

[ragedog10]

Breeding young dogs has nothing to do with them acting like puppies at 4yrs of age lol. I can't breed 2 young dogs together bc I wanna know what the individuals will bring to the table, folks can get away with that for only so long no matter how much they know the line they're breeding. Also how can a person tell what an animal gonna be at a year old? I have a couple youngsters now that I think a lot of especially the female who will be 2yrs old in May, she's had a couple heat cycles and the thought hasn't crossed my mind to breed her(yes I know her ped from top top to bottom especially the bottom) bc there's a few more things I wish to see


I would agree with you that sticking to young dogs has nothing to do with a dog still acting like a pup(N.O) b,u,t when the whole litter is "cold" then all things must be considered no?

[Pit Bull Committed]

I'm also not a fan of breeding young dogs. This is just me. I don't care what other ppl do with their dogs. I bought some dogs from some highly reputable breeders/kennels whatever you want to call it... and none met my expectations. I realized if I want the dogs I like I got to breed my own dogs or put my bitch under a stud I like. Nuff said!

[ragedog10]

And that was a great point made on the other thread!

[EGK]

I dont agree with it and can touch on what a few have said. When folks don't know the sacrifices of being a dog man and not in it for the hustle they don't understand the cause and effect of certain decisions. They say it's not your business yet when the news breaks everybody gets shook in an area no matter if they do are don't. Why over populate and hustle our dogs when we see the trouble the breed is in. Folks say low life this and that yet they take the money from anybody. Breeding young dogs with intent to sell is a hustle. Keeping them is taking a chance. Making that choice is one thing. I know a man who has a ROM bitch untouched. He sales dogs time to time but all her ROM pts came from his hard work and foresight. I don't knock selling dogs. Just put in the work and understand the sacrifice. Value what it means to be a dogman with some standard and integrity. Too many dogmen are half ass gamblers, peddlers, and in it for a buck. Jmo

[EGK]

I'm also not a fan of breeding young dogs. This is just me. I don't care what other ppl do with their dogs. I bought some dogs from some highly reputable breeders/kennels whatever you want to call it... and none met my expectations. I realized if I want the dogs I like I got to breed my own dogs or put my bitch under a stud I like. Nuff said!

Truth!!!!

[Black Hand]

I'd breed to that son of red pirate before I would breed to half the other stuff that is up for stud.

[MISTER]

Here's my take on it, a young female ok I can understand that but in no way would I breed to a male that hasn't been checked for this simple reason, there's always a viable stud I can choose to breed to so I don't need to settle for a youngster. In no way would I breed 2 young dogs together I just can't do it.

[EGK]

Salute...

[ragedog10]

I dont agree with it and can touch on what a few have said. When folks don't know the sacrifices of being a dog man and not in it for the hustle they don't understand the cause and effect of certain decisions. They say it's not your business yet when the news breaks everybody gets shook in an area no matter if they do are don't. Why over populate and hustle our dogs when we see the trouble the breed is in. Folks say low life this and that yet they take the money from anybody. Breeding young dogs with intent to sell is a hustle. Keeping them is taking a chance. Making that choice is one thing. I know a man who has a ROM bitch untouched. He sales dogs time to time but all her ROM pts came from his hard work and foresight. I don't knock selling dogs. Just put in the work and understand the sacrifice. Value what it means to be a dogman with some standard and integrity. Too many dogmen are half ass gamblers, peddlers, and in it for a buck. Jmo


And that is what i want young and old people to understand! Our breed is being pimp out by ASAPC,PETA and worst PEDDLERS who only see $$$. Truth is folks can breed young dogs if they please to they feed them b,u,t i do belive as members have said its going to catch up if that practice is kept up!
Old proven stud x young gyp I see no harm in that.Now young male x young female emmm im hard press to expect big things and would always look at these with a crooked eye.

[Macker]

Ginetics are Ginetics, surely the age of the sire and dam should not affect how the dogs behave or mature into grown dogs?
Out of curiosity how are the pups bred? Are they tightly bred dogs?

I wouldn't be a fan of breeding young unproven dogs but if it needed to be done I also wouldn't hesitate. We imported a young bitch from garner a few years ago and just before she was to be shipped she broke so we had garner mate her to the bobby Peru dog and got some of the best dogs we've ever had.

[Nut]

I agree with the post Jack is going to make.

Either that, or keep the pups to yourself.

[Macker]

I agree with the post Jack is going to make.

Either that, or keep the pups to yourself.

I agree, I think the main problem with breeding young bitches is when someone does it to peddle all the pups. If you get yourself a bitch with the intentions of keeping her as a brood bitch to get good dogs from and keep then why not breed from her straight away and get the ball rolling.

[ragedog10]

Ginetics are Ginetics, surely the age of the sire and dam should not affect how the dogs behave or mature into grown dogs?
Out of curiosity how are the pups bred? Are they tightly bred dogs?

I wouldn't be a fan of breeding young unproven dogs but if it needed to be done I also wouldn't hesitate. We imported a young bitch from garner a few years ago and just before she was to be shipped she broke so we had garner mate her to the bobby Peru dog and got some of the best dogs we've ever had.

This would be very understandable that killing two birds with one stone! B,u,t she was bred to a proven STUD!

[ragedog10]

I agree with the post Jack is going to make.

Either that, or keep the pups to yourself.

Dont think he will be dropping in as he aready spoke his part on an other thread! This thread was made out of respect to the other members thread!

But how do you agree with someone that has not voice his opinion on this thread or are you in concur with wat he posted on the other thread?
Dont think Jack will mind if we as members voice our matter of opinions!

[EGK]

Genetics are genetics but the objective view of breeding proven parents is pairing the right genetic. Individuals from the same gene pool pull different traits many times. I have an old buddy with 40yrs in dogs. He is kicking himself right now trying to find the right specimens from his line to get back what made him love it. The blood is there but you can see a significant change in the dogs. He gambled a few times and regrets it. I continued in the way he taught me and he says he still sees what used to be on his yard. The thing is more about selective breeding to me and being able to cultivate and build consistency. This paired with overpopulation move my view. It's all opinions though so it's just a discussion not a debate. Still in stating my view. I recognize I can't control what anyone does. These discussions help moving forward with the breed though. So this topic is healthy. We can all weigh pros and cons.

[Officially Retired]

My opinion is this: at the end of the day, people's "personal standards" mean nothing.

The only thing that truly matters is how their dogs do in open competition :idea:

Quibbling over "what someone else does" on their own yard, with their own dogs, shows a serious mental imbalance IMO.
I can't change what you're going to do, and you can't change what I am going to do.

If a man's dogs are winning, then shut up.
If your dogs aren't winning, then shut up.

If a man's dogs are repeatedly and consistently winning in open competition, then that is all that needs to be said.
If your dogs are repeatedly and consistently winning in open competition, then that is all that needs to be said.

Worry about your own standards, and if you're able to meet and beat (or lose deeply game in a long haul with) the best in the sport, then you're on the right track :mrgreen:
However, if your dogs are only heroes in your own backyard (or imagination), against nobodies, but you have never actually produced dogs that have faced/beaten (or lost DG to) truly great dogs, then maybe your "opinion" isn't all that it's cracked up to be, when put under the microscope of factual reality.

Now, if someone else's dogs are getting out there and winning consistently, AND yours are too, then maybe BOTH ways are effective ... and there might be "more than one way" to do things right :idea:

Producing dogs that can win consistently is NOT just about "testing individuals" in the box ... it's also about effectively managing key genetic traits in the brood pen ;) :-?

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Ginetics are Ginetics, surely the age of the sire and dam should not affect how the dogs behave or mature into grown dogs?
Out of curiosity how are the pups bred? Are they tightly bred dogs?

Exactly right. A dog can either produce, or it can't, regardless of its talent.




I wouldn't be a fan of breeding young unproven dogs but if it needed to be done I also wouldn't hesitate. We imported a young bitch from garner a few years ago and just before she was to be shipped she broke so we had garner mate her to the bobby Peru dog and got some of the best dogs we've ever had.

Exactly right again. If you have a knowledge of what good dogs are (in deed, in a pedigree, how an animal should move, etc.), and if you have a gem of a young dog, then breed her and get the ball rolling.

Of course, at some point, all dogs need to be evaluated over several REASONABLE rolls.
NO DOG needs to be rolled within an inch of its life, ever.

On the flipside, NO ONE can keep breeding untested dogs, and keep themselves in the winner's circle over time.
You have to SEE what you're breeding at some point. (This should be obvious to anyone.)
Tested does NOT mean "beat all to hell," mutilated, or permanently-damaged.
Tested means rolled with a few dogs, after it's mature, with each successive roll being against progressively more-and-more talented individuals, until both are fairly tired, to see how the prospect does and behaves against a variety of styles.

Again, any fool should be able to distinguish between a breeder of dogs, and determine right away if this guy is a green bozo breeding puppies to sell (with no actual breeding record to stand on), or if he's a long-term breeder of excellence (meaning DOGS THAT WIN) who happens to be breeding a young, superbly-bred animal of his own time-proven bloodline.

Anyone with a pedigree full of untested dogs isn't winning consistently.

Anyone with a pedigree FULL of game/talented dogs, from generations of high-percentage litters top-and-bottom ... can happily breed his young dogs ... and not have to worry about what "The Peanut Gallery" has to say :mrgreen:

Jack

One more thing: Just because "you" don't know what a dog did/didn't do in a pedigree doesn't mean "nothing's been done" with that dog ;)

[EGK]

All truth, just something else piling up the breeding on the way out to recoup a bit. Most definitely what you said was all truth though Jack. No dispute here. Salute

[Officially Retired]

Let me also add that I understand the concern for adding too many bulldogs on this earth, bred by every Tom, Dick, and Harry breeding their first puppies together.

I have done my part by no longer breeding dogs PERIOD.
IF I get back in, I will only do so IF I have enough "other" income so that I don't ever have to sell any dog for any reason.

So here is another truth:
If you don't want to "support" green bozos breeding dogs, then don't buy from them EVER :idea:

Because, ya see, here's what happens: the green bozo buys from the time-proven breeder (who charges $$, as he should, for his years of trial/error and success).
The green bozo spends $$$ to get his pups ... and then breeds them together, first heat, no real rolls. and then turns around and sells his well-bred/untested pups for $300-$500.
And guess what happens then?
That's right, YOU bozos then bypass the time-proven breeder, and buy the cheap pups being advertised by the green bozo, KNOWING that the pups will prolly still be good, but undercutting the proven breeder in the process. So YOU GUYS made this happen :-O

Therefore ... put your money where your mouth is and either 1) BREED YOUR OWN or 2) SUPPORT LEGIT BREEDERS ... by ponying-up the $$$ to the good breeders ... and leave low-$ pups from two well bred dogs alone, no matter how well bred ... to discourage the practice of green retards breeding their first dogs and selling pups. And anyone who buys scatter-bred shit deserves to stay at the bottom.

You can also wait till the green guy gets out there and WINS with his dogs (after he realizes no one will buy), and then even he might hike-up those prices to where they belong ... and, in so doing, have "proven" his stock in some way. He'll find they're worth more that way too.

The best criticism is NOT BUYING the pups you're complaining about ... because the "complaints" mean nothing if someone's getting his $$.

Jack

[S_B]

Let me also add that I understand the concern for adding too many bulldogs on this earth, bred by every Tom, Dick, and Harry breeding their first puppies together.

I have done my part by no longer breeding dogs PERIOD.
IF I get back in, I will only do so IF I have enough "other" income so that I don't ever have to sell any dog for any reason.

So here is another truth:
If you don't want to "support" green bozos breeding dogs, then don't buy from them EVER :idea:

Because, ya see, here's what happens: the green bozo buys from the time-proven breeder (who charges $$, as he should, for his years of trial/error and success).
The green bozo spends $$$ to get his pups ... and then breeds them together, first heat, no real rolls. and then turns around and sells his well-bred/untested pups for $300-$500.
And guess what happens then?
That's right, YOU bozos then bypass the time-proven breeder, and buy the cheap pups being advertised by the green bozo, KNOWING that the pups will prolly still be good, but undercutting the proven breeder in the process. So YOU GUYS made this happen :-O

Therefore ... put your money where your mouth is and either 1) BREED YOUR OWN or 2) SUPPORT LEGIT BREEDERS ... by ponying-up the $$$ to the good breeders ... and leave low-$ pups from two well bred dogs alone, no matter how well bred ... to discourage the practice of green retards breeding their first dogs and selling pups. And anyone who buys scatter-bred shit deserves to stay at the bottom.

You can also wait till the green guy gets out there and WINS with his dogs (after he realizes no one will buy), and then even he might hike-up those prices to where they belong ... and, in so doing, have "proven" his stock in some way. He'll find they're worth more that way too.

The best criticism is NOT BUYING the pups you're complaining about ... because the "complaints" mean nothing if someone's getting his $$.

Jack

I respect this answer, and agree 100%! Very well said Jack!

I've said b4 I'm not into buying dogs, but that doesn't mean I'm a fool and can't recognize when quality dogmen offer quality bulldogs for sale at a price that reflects their worth. And if I was looking to buy, I know where I'd spend my money.

As far as breeding young dogs for profit, like Jack says it's all about the quality of dogs being pumped out by the breeder.

Guys all the pissing, bitching and moaning isn't going to change things one iota. But if you practice what Jack just said above, you will be ok.

[EGK]

What Jack said for the most part is what this thread was about. Because it was a topic it may help someone when they read it. I believe the majority of us breed our own anyway. I know everything on my yard I bred for 3 generations and had to learn some years ago just what was said on here. Haven't bought a dog in 5yrs for myself. Salute to all and respect for a good discussion.

[MISTER]

I mainly started this post bc another member's post was sorta hi-jacked with this particular topic. I respect all opinions and methods, also I'm glad this thread didn't go ”left”.

[S_B]

Great topic Mister...

[MISTER]

Great topic Mister...

Thanks buddy, as we all know what works for me may not work for you. This seems to be one of those sensitve topics that people cant discuss without bashing one another. I just like to see other peoples methods, I know of quite a few winners,chs, and DG dogs that came off of young, untested bitches. Great responses gentlemen.

[No Quarter Kennel]

I dont agree with it and can touch on what a few have said. When folks don't know the sacrifices of being a dog man and not in it for the hustle they don't understand the cause and effect of certain decisions. They say it's not your business yet when the news breaks everybody gets shook in an area no matter if they do are don't. Why over populate and hustle our dogs when we see the trouble the breed is in. Folks say low life this and that yet they take the money from anybody. Breeding young dogs with intent to sell is a hustle. Keeping them is taking a chance. Making that choice is one thing. I know a man who has a ROM bitch untouched. He sales dogs time to time but all her ROM pts came from his hard work and foresight. I don't knock selling dogs. Just put in the work and understand the sacrifice. Value what it means to be a dogman with some standard and integrity. Too many dogmen are half ass gamblers, peddlers, and in it for a buck. Jmo

I'm on board with the majority of what you say here.
Only one sentence I get tired of hearing from a ton of people on subjects like this about money.

Outside of TG or maybe one or two others making some money, there isn't anyone MAKING money breeding and selling these dogs. Yes, some are, but personally, I don't know anyone who is making money. So to say "they in it for the money" is a bit asinine.

Anyone here know someone personally who makes significant money breeding and selling bulldogs?

[Macker]

There's no money in dogs, And not just breeding them, even people working them. my honest opinion is the odd time somebody might get a decent bet on one of there dogs and win but anything people get they either put back into them or barely cover what they have put in. Maybe in America it's different but I believe these big stake shows are few and very far between, well anything you could consider earning a living from anyway. The media go on as if guys have millions on these shows but the truth is a purse of a thousand bucks is a pretty big purse these days. You guys would know better what goes on over there but over this side of the pond percentage wise, big purse shows are in the minority.

[EGK]

Right, No money really in them at all but many come in with that ambition as we all know. That's all I meant by that part. Also many that sale just to make a bit of rent, a bill, anniversary gift, holidays, etc. Those dogs they think worth a $1000 to just get them off the yard are given to neighborhood kids and sold from $75-$500. It was for the money but no real money and those dogs multiply with the same thinking or in the wrong hands. Hell no one will ever touch the level of selling dogs TG has been at. If anything though this is a costly lifestyle all the way around.

[Officially Retired]

There are definitely better income strategies than breeding dogs, especially bulldogs :lol:

I made enough money so that I was able to support my dogs, myself, buy 3 different cars/vans, and handle all of my bills/expenses for quite awhile.
(All on 100% dog-related income; never sold a drug, etc.)

Lost my shirt once, when I bred Stormbringer to 14 bitches ... and none took ... and that was a rough one to come back from ... but I did.

Would NOT have been able to survive that financial blow (an estimated $65K loss) had I not written California Jack's Indispensable Tips, which earned me $75,000 the following year, and which eventually grew into The Pit Bull Bible.

If you're smart, and have good dogs (meaning you produce LOTS of winners), you can "support yourself" on breeding dogs ... but don't expect to be rich, without having some OTHER income source(s), that's for sure.

If I would have been willing to hang papers on local-bred pups, and lie about them "really being off Stormbringer," I could have made a lot of money ... rather than spiraling into the shithole when he stopped producing, as he was a HUGELY popular dog that people were willing to pay $$ for his pups, but unfortunately went sterile at 5 years of age :crying:

I didn't lie though, and never hung a paper; I was honest and told people Stormy went sterile, and that hurt me quite a bit.

Did not have a super-popular stud again until Silverback.
U-Nhan-Rha, Rocko, and Icon were terrific studs, each throwing a lot of game/talented dogs, but the public didn't clamor for them (even though their pups kicked ass).

Silverback was my last "Hollywood" stud dog. He was a 1-in-10,000 dog, and I could ask what I wanted for his pups and get the $$ for them.
He was just a unique-looking, stunning, well-bred, and supremely-talented dog (and I had bred enough winners, for enough years, to have people be confident in my opinion of an animal).

In order to succeed as a breeder, you MUST have **your own** Flagship Animal :idea: :idea:

Don't think you can make it with "a son of X" ... or "good X blood" ... YOU have to be a leader and you have THE DOG people want (not "his son," etc.) in order to make it as a 100% breeder.

You also can't be a guy who still "asks questions" about technical matters as they pertain to dogs; you have to be the kind of guy people (customers) come to for answers to their questions.

Take it from someone who's been there, done that.

Jack

[ragedog10]

I think everyone should read,
"Improving the bloodhound (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107-gt-gt-gt-%29%29%29-Great-Articles-on-Breeding-Dogs-%28%28%28-lt-lt-lt&p=742&viewfull=1#post742)" by TFX
Great read.

[Macker]

Is that a book or an article ragedog?

[scratchin dog]

Is that a book or an article ragedog?


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107-gt-gt-gt-%29%29%29-Great-Articles-on-Breeding-Dogs-%28%28%28-lt-lt-lt&p=742&viewfull=1#post742

[ragedog10]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107-gt-gt-gt-%29%29%29-Great-Articles-on-Breeding-Dogs-%28%28%28-lt-lt-lt&p=742&viewfull=1#post742
Thanks for that buddy!

[ragedog10]

Is that a book or an article ragedog?

Have you gotten the chance to read it yet?

[Macker]

Yes, I agree with a lot of the things he's saying, it goes back to exactly what I've been thought when it comes to breeding dogs.

[Officially Retired]

I think everyone should read,
"Improving the bloodhound (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107-gt-gt-gt-%29%29%29-Great-Articles-on-Breeding-Dogs-%28%28%28-lt-lt-lt&p=742&viewfull=1#post742)" by TFX
Great read.

It is a great read, which is why I included it on the thread, Great Articles on Breeding Dogs (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/showthread.php?107) :mrgreen:

[BSK]

Jack,even though u're not Breeding any more u're still a valuable asset to the game. U're still very actively involved By making your knowledge available. U have had many critics through out the years(believe me I know cause I've had a few arguments defending u),but truth always prevails. When it comes to knowledge of the game I look toward you & T.G above a few of my older relatives that's mean involved for many years. I commend u for all u have added to the game through ur dogs & ur knowledge. My grandma said give people their roses while they're hear kause they can't smell them when they're gone. So here's Ur's Elder!

[Officially Retired]

Jack,even though u're not Breeding any more u're still a valuable asset to the game. U're still very actively involved By making your knowledge available. U have had many critics through out the years(believe me I know cause I've had a few arguments defending u),but truth always prevails. When it comes to knowledge of the game I look toward you & T.G above a few of my older relatives that's mean involved for many years. I commend u for all u have added to the game through ur dogs & ur knowledge. My grandma said give people their roses while they're hear kause they can't smell them when they're gone. So here's Ur's Elder!

Thank you.

I prefer it this way.

I can discuss my favorite topic, without having to constantly worry about them anymore.

Trouble is, I miss looking out and seeing a yard of my own creation, but maybe some day I will get some again.

Jack

[SZ82]

What about young stud/ old bitch? Say son back to the mother.

[bossman311]

I decided to start this thread as this convo was taking over another member's thread. I for one don't condone this practice however I know it's been done with success. If someone gonna breed a young gyp to an old male to preserve the blood, ok I understand but when it's made a common practice that's where it becomes a problem. These dogs aren't for just anyone who has the coin to purchase their next fad. It pains me to see this great breed sold for monetary gain. Each breeding we make should be to improve the breed so how do a person know what they're improving on if the individuals aren't even fully developed yet?

PS. Please be respectful, I know this is a highly debatable topic and folks aren't gonna see eye to eye

Weather you are 1 yrs old or 100 you still have the same DNA. It never changes.
If You have an already existing family it doesn't matter if you going back to say a Father or Grandfather.
If you are starting off then you need to see it fully mature & learn about it . Both Strengths & weaknesses before you breed because it might not be worth breeding.

[brokeback]

Weather you are 1 yrs old or 100 you still have the same DNA. It never changes.
If You have an already existing family it doesn't matter if you going back to say a Father or Grandfather.
If you are starting off then you need to see it fully mature & learn about it . Both Strengths & weaknesses before you breed because it might not be worth breeding.
Just because you breed them so young doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I know you get a kick out of seeing your name '15/17' gens but that doesn't mean you have good dogs. Just young dogs being bred.

[bossman311]

Just because you breed them so young doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I know you get a kick out of seeing your name '15/17' gens but that doesn't mean you have good dogs. Just young dogs being bred.

Generations & age have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
In fact if you actually new me then you you would no that my program is hard & starts younger for a dog to meet my standard.
Dogs folks bragged on couldn't make the cut or keep the chain spot.
You can find 9 different families blended in some or 13 different families that I have all blended together in others.
I'm sure you are one of those who feed some of the same ones I add but not as pure & you think they are all of that.
I get a kick out of folks that's been around this long or longer who don't have 1/2 to show. That's what I really get a kick out of.
When it's all said & done the only thing that matters in bulldogs is sex & weight.
The difference in Bulldogs between talk & walk is a pedigree.
If you done it show if not keep it to yourself.

[Frank43]

This is true to a point the genes are the genes. Problem is you haven't seen enough to know what the expression of those genes looks like. I'm in this position a little now. I bought two pups. Both are rbjbt crosses, but looking further at it they aren't really that related. Now i see them as two different entities. One is a young male the other a female. My gut is pulling me towards the male more. He impresses me more every day. I would rather get his littermate sister. Do a father/daughter breeding with her and sit on the male. I think the males have a harder road in dogs and in life. Girls may get a pass to a point. Most likely when you are getting a start. My male may suck. Turn to be a rank cur then I have a yard full of his kids. The female may be the same. If she can pass on the genes in her past and successfully raise a littler of pups I'm happier.

[sam i am]

This is true to a point the genes are the genes. Problem is you haven't seen enough to know what the expression of those genes looks like. I'm in this position a little now. I bought two pups. Both are rbjbt crosses, but looking further at it they aren't really that related. Now i see them as two different entities. One is a young male the other a female. My gut is pulling me towards the male more. He impresses me more every day. I would rather get his littermate sister. Do a father/daughter breeding with her and sit on the male. I think the males have a harder road in dogs and in life. Girls may get a pass to a point. Most likely when you are getting a start. My male may suck. Turn to be a rank cur then I have a yard full of his kids. The female may be the same. If she can pass on the genes in her past and successfully raise a littler of pups I'm happier.

Time & money can besaved buying the brood bitch. Puppies are the biggest gamble feeding, housing, care of those pups until maturity. Is a waste if the desired results are not achieved, definitely if purchased from less than savvy individuals. Don’t gamble on what could be my friend go with what’s been proven.

Good luck 👍🏿

[Frank43]

how do you do that and not go broke a proven producer costs more than a used truck

[sam i am]

how do you do that and not go broke a proven producer costs more than a used truck

Depends on who you know and honest evaluation of the bitch in question. One mans trash is another mans treasure 💡when you really calculate what it cost to raise those hyped up pups into adulthood and end up dissatisfied.Time, feed, meds,for a few more dollars one could have purchased a gyp with grown dogs on the ground . that will give you a peek into the future. Hard times hit everybody. Cash is king. buying puppies always is a crap shoot buy the bitch breed a litter. Odds are simply better.


Or not everyone sees things differently

[Frank43]

true thanks

[Black Hand]

First step is knowing gold when you see it... that makes panning for it a hell of a lot easier. Once you know exactly what you are looking for, you will notice that others you associate with aren't looking for the same thing. The ones you like, maybe they don't! The traits you would love to replicate, maybe they are too subtle or it just isn't these fella's fancy. Trust and believe that we are not all looking for the same thing and when you narrow down what you are looking for it will make your search a lot easier and with a lot more meaning to it. People let go of good dogs all the time as good is only relative to your own standards n like I said... our standards vary between one another.

[evolutionkennels]

First step is knowing gold when you see it... that makes panning for it a hell of a lot easier. Once you know exactly what you are looking for, you will notice that others you associate with aren't looking for the same thing. The ones you like, maybe they don't! The traits you would love to replicate, maybe they are too subtle or it just isn't these fella's fancy. Trust and believe that we are not all looking for the same thing and when you narrow down what you are looking for it will make your search a lot easier and with a lot more meaning to it. People let go of good dogs all the time as good is only relative to your own standards n like I said... our standards vary between one another.

Absolutely

[S_B]

The first 3-4 pages of this thread were gold. I miss Jack's contributions like those here, when he wasn't belittling. This was/is and will always be a good topic especially for those newer to the breed.

S_B

[Frank43]

I like reading his stuff. I really want a Hollingsworth book. Did I mention I have terminal cancer and my last wish is to have a Hollingsworth book before I die?

[champj20]

I'm with you, MISTER, maybe if a certain situation called for it but I surely wouldn't make a habit of it. And every single dog would stay with me. None leaving the yard.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=46354&dam_id=66592

[champj20]

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=46354&dam_id=66592

Any opinions on this

[BRICKFACE]

Any opinions on this

i like it. You don't see many line bred family's like this anymore. I have one bred very similar.

[champj20]

Oh okay

[bossman311]

i like it. You don't see many line bred family's like this anymore. I have one bred very similar.

You are correct BRICKFACE ! You don't see many line bred families like that anymore. I salute the breeder.

I still strive & work to make my family of dogs better . One generation at a time.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=71124

[Frank43]

You are correct BRICKFACE ! You don't see many line bred families like that anymore. I salute the breeder.

I still strive & work to make my family of dogs better . One generation at a time.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=71124



Nice

[bossman311]

Nice

Thanks

[Palooka]

ive no problem with breeding a young bitch from my own stock, particularly if my choice of stud is still active, always best to do matings, while both are still alive