Correct weight?

[BME]

How does anyone find their dogs correct weight? Ive heard you need to strip them. What do you all think?

[YigYang]

This is mr. crenshaw keep also showing hwo to find his correct weight






To begin with you must have a healthy dog. This is a 12 week keep. The first 4 weeks I
walk the dog 10 miles per day. I walk him everyday for these 4 weeks and feed one
hour after the walk. If the show is to begin at 8:00 p.m. then I walk my dog from 5
p.m. to 8 p.m. This 4 weeks is to pre condition the dog and get him close to weight. It is
very important to get all gut or internal fat out of him. If you can't get the fat out from
his intestines, heart, lungs, and liver, you can't put him in shape.
For the first 4 weeks I feed the following:

1. 1 cup pro plan (chicken and rice) adult formula
2. 1 cup Kellogg's All-Bran
3. 1 or 2 cloves chopped garlic
4. 1 tablespoon chopped spinach
5. 2 cups chicken broth
6. 1 cup cooked chicken

Place items1-2-3-4 in feed pan. Heat items 5-6 (pour over 1-2-3-4)
To make the chicken and broth I place 15 chicken thighs in a 3 gallon stock pot and fill
with water. Cook until tender and place in refrigerator when cool.

WEEK 5:

The walk is still 10 miles (5p.m. to 8p.m). Immediately after the walk, while he is still
warmed up, he gets 5 minutes on the treadmill. When he comes off mill, walk him 30
minutes to cool down. Then rub him down good and put him in his quarters. Prepare
his food an feed him one hour after he comes off the mill. (If your dog is losing
excessive weight, feed more dog food). If he is dehydrated, increase liquid. However, if
he is losing too much weight it is possible you are going at the wrong weight. He should
not have water between mill and feed time. But when you feed him, place at least 1/2
gallon clean water where he has access to it. The water should be changed and the
container cleaned daily. I read once where someone said the green stuff in water won't
hurt the dog.....But you give him one bucket of clean and one green with algae and see
which one he drinks from!!!!!!!!!

Continue each day of week 5 the same. With only 5 minutes mill work, it shouldn't be
necessary to rest him this week. But this keep is only a guide. You have to use common
sense. If the dog is tired or doesn't feel good,"Rest Him".

WEEK 6:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
10 minutes on mill
Rub down
Everything stays the same (If the dog loses weight, add additional dog food). Everything
else stays the same. Be sure to replace water.

WEEK 7:

Walk 10 miles (5pm-8pm)
20 minutes on mill
Rub Down
Everything else same except feed:
With 10 miles walk, 20 minutes on mill, and 30 minutes to cool down, the dog should
be drying out some. At this time I leave all ingredients the same except liquid and
chicken. I put 3 whole chicken thighs (including skin) with bone removed. Broth: add 1
ounce per pound body weight (40 pound dogs gets 40 ounces broth daily). Wait one
hour after mill and feed. Put water so he can drink.

WEEK 8:

Walk Same 10 miles (5pm-8pm)
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes to cool down, Rub down, feed on hour after mill, and replace water.

WEEK 9:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed on hour after mill
REPLACE WATER

WEEK 10:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed on hour after mill
WATER

WEEK 11:

SUNDAY
Begin 10 mile walk at 4 p.m. Finish walk at 7p.m
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed at 10:30. WATER!!!!!!!!!

MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY=SAME AS SUNDAY

FRIDAY
Walk 5 miles (ending at 8p.m)
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes

Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (10:10), WATER!!!!!!!!!!

SATURDAY:

Walk 5 miles
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 15 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (10:10p.m) WATER!!!!!!!

WEEK 12:

SUNDAY:
Walk 5 miles ending at 8p.m
Mill 10 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 10 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (9:50p.m) WATER!!!!!!!

MONDAY:

Walk one hour ending at 8p.m
Mill 10 minutes
Walk 30 minutes Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (9:10pm.) WATER!!!!!

TUESDAY:

Today I put the dog in a kennel in my bedroom, keep the room cool and quiet. I take
him out early in the morning for a good walk (about 30-45 minutes). Put him up until
noon and take him for another 30-45 minute walk.
4-pm--walk for one hour
5pm-- feed, put back in kennel
9pm-- walk just long enough for him to empty or urinate. Put in kennel until morning. I
offer him water after each walk before he goes back in the kennel.

WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY==SAME AS TUESDAY

FRIDAY:

I made sure to arrive at the area of the show at least 30 (THIRTY) hours before
showtime so I could feed the last meal there and to insure my dog got plenty of rest.
8pm. 2cc Dex 2mg-ml. Put under skin, NOT muscle.

SATURDAY:

6am. 5cc Dex under skin

ALL THIS IS A GUIDE IF THE SHOW IS AT 8PM SATURDAY

I never feed but once daily. This will keep your dog regular and insure he is empty at
show time. Next to getting the gut fat out of him, this is the most important: making
sure he is empty at show time. He will get hot an week if he has anything in his
stomach.

To make weight, I use broth without any solids. I strain chicken broth through cheese
cloth and save one pint. You can give this to him up to 3 hours before show time and it
will not do any harm.

And last, this is only a guide. You have to use common sense to apply with any success.
Example:

If the dog loses weight, feed more
If he gains weight, work more or feed less
if he is tired, rest him
if you are lazy and don't work your dog, he won't be in shape
if he is dry, add more broth
if his is too wet, decrease broth

Don't push him too fast. Work according to schedule in pre-keep to prepare him for
work.

Not many people have the ability to condition

I once read an article that Earl Tudor wrote which said he doubted it there was 5 men
in the world that knew how to find a dog's weight, get the gut fat out, and knew how to
condition him after he got the fat out.

I WILL GO ONE STEP FURTHER AND SAY:
If there are 3 today that know this and are not too LAZY to put him in shape, I do not
know them.

GOOD LUCK
IT'S HARD WORK AND TAKES A LOT OF TIME
ow to find his correct weight

[Officially Retired]

How does anyone find their dogs correct weight? Ive heard you need to strip them. What do you all think?


I can't believe I missed this question ... so my apologies for the delay in response!

First of all, every single match I lost was because I failed to get the weight right:

I matched Truman at 55, but he came in at 52;[/*:m:2manb3kw]
I hooked Mack at 42 but he really was a 40;[/*:m:2manb3kw]
I hooked Poncho at 45.5, but he really was a 47-48 (which I knew), but I thought I could get away with 45.5 ... but instead he came in at 44[/*:m:2manb3kw]
The last match I had was over 15 years ago, and I effed-up so bad when I was doing these dogs, this might have you wondering what in the hell qualifies "me" to speak with any kind of authority on the subject of getting the weight right. Fair question! :lol:

Well, let us just say that, though I haven't actually matched any dogs since then, I have not been living in a plastic bottle all through this time either. Back then, the only "top dogmen" I knew weren't in my corner, they were my competition. Since that time, I have made acquaintances with many top dogmen all over the world, the most important of whom was a man who has been doing dogs since the mid-60s and who has owned/co-owned (or gone into) more all-time great Champions and Grand Champions than virtually any other dogman alive. I am talking about Gr Ch Melonhead 17xW (lost to him in 2:40 with Gr Ch Dooley 8x) Gr Ch Tornado 10xW (part of the A-Team), Gr Ch Robert T 9x (part of the A Team), Gr Ch Sampson 5xW (lost to him with Gr Ch Zinc 9xW), Gr Ch Outlaw 7xW (lost to him in 2:00 with a Champion), Gr Ch Milo 5xW, Gr Ch Junior 6xW, Gr Ch Leroy (6xW), Ch Robert T Jr (stopped four 4xWs from making Gr Ch with him), etc., etc. So, let's just say the guy has been around some good dogs ;)

Well, I stayed on one of his properties for 4 years, and when I say this guy is "active" I mean active ... like he did dogs damned near every weekend, and like I said he has been doing dogs like that for over 40 years. And one thing this man has learned is how to pick a dog's weight, and he taught me pretty much the best way to do it ... and that is essentially handwalking them down to it.

However, with that said, I am going to throw a couple of flies in the ointment: 1) you MUST have experience seeing dogs "at their best weight" in order to develop an eye for it, and 2) different dogs have different levels of tolerance to losing weight; in other words some dogs can be pulled rail-thin and still be strong, while others need to keep a little weight on them. You simply need the experience actually seeing dogs get pulled down to their best weight, and you have to actually know the dog in question (his style, strengths/weaknesses) in order to perform that judgment call.

In the same way that no "book" can teach you how to surf (you simply have to get on the board and try it--and you WILL fall), no book or "post" can give you the eye of experience in calling a dog's weight. Even if I exactly state the procedure, you still need to do it in order to develop your own bearings, in exactly the same was as a surfer (even if he reads all about the best techniques) still has to actually go out there and do it in order to become a good surfer.

So, with that preamble, I can tell you that as you draw your dog down in weight, the main thing to make sure you NEVER do is to let him lose any mass in either his neck or his back end. As the old man told me, "Jack, if you lose your neck you lose your dog ... if you lose your ass end, you lose your dog." In other words, dogs do all of their fighting and biting with their necks and head muscles, and so if you draw a dog down so fine you lose his neck/head mass/strength, you've blown it. Even hold-out artists use their neck strength to hold-out a dog, so if you take that from them, you ruin them. (In fact, that is exactly what I did with Poncho, took away both his neck and his ass-end strength, and he couldn't hold-out Leonard at 44 lb like he could hold-out a dog at 48 lb. At 48 lb you could never get your mouth on Poncho; at 44 lb, he was already losing his ass-end and falling "sitting" because his backend was so weakened at that low weight.)

Anyway, what I learned from the old man was that the dogs "ribs" don't matter, his "spine" doesn't matter ... the only thing that you should be watching for are his NECK (head) and his ASS-END ... and, while all other aspects of the dog can shrink, you never want the neck or ass-end to lose any muscle mass at all ... for, as he said in his thick southern accent, "If you do, you lose your dog."

One final thing to mention is TRAVELING. What I learned the hard way with Poncho is, never "leave your home" with your dog at his best weight ... because, by the time you get to your destination (especially if it's a 6 hour trip), your dog will lose weight! All of these things take professionalism and experience to learn, which is why it really is a good idea to get with a really good, successful dogman for mentorship.

Books (or reading) can't teach you everything. My book is the best APBT book on the planet. It has stuff in there that even these old timers don't know. The old man I told you about has absolutely no knowledge of nutrition, nor even what most of these new drugs can do. But what he DOES have is a helluvan eye for a bulldog ... and the ability to judge its best weight ... and these things canNOT be taught in a book; they must be gained by experience.

Hope this helps,

Jack


.

[YigYang]

CH MELONHEAD (17XW)(1XL)

WTF, is this real, where they contracted??????????

[Officially Retired]

Are you kidding me?

Meaddor's Gr Ch Melonhead is a legend and arguably the winningest pit dog in the history of the sport. Gr Ch Tornado was the winningest bitch in the history of the sport. Rebel Kennels' Gr Ch Sampson was a 5xW, 5xBIS while Zinc 9xW was considered an unbeatable finisher in the guts. Robert T and T Junior were two of the best head dogs of all time.

The dogs I mentioned are nothing but the "realest" dogs that have ever lived, making most so-called Champions and Grand Champions today look like bushleague chumps by comparison, and the old man I am referring to either owned these great dogs, co-owned them, or he went into them with equal-caliber dogs.

Jack

.

[Crofab]

Walking your dog down to his proper weight is one way to do it. You can use an electric treadmill or a slatmill to do the same thing if you have the time and willingness to do what it takes to get those dogs there.

Another thing a person should keep in mind is the physical strength of their dog while they're going down in weight. It's not as easy to determine as one might think if they're not accustomed to noticing such tiny degrees of difference. The actions of the dog are another indicator if you've pulled a dog below his best possible weight.

Without a doubt, choosing the correct weight for a dog is, by far, the hardest thing you will have to learn to do. Working a dog requires dedication and knowledge. Calling the correct weight requires knowledge, but it also calls for a skilled feeling and intuitiveness that a lot of people simply never develop irregardless of their time with dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Walking your dog down to his proper weight is one way to do it. You can use an electric treadmill or a slatmill to do the same thing if you have the time and willingness to do what it takes to get those dogs there.
Another thing a person should keep in mind is the physical strength of their dog while they're going down in weight. It's not as easy to determine as one might think if they're not accustomed to noticing such tiny degrees of difference. The actions of the dog are another indicator if you've pulled a dog below his best possible weight.

The old man didn't like mills as well, for several reasons, one of which was (as you mention in your second paragraph) feeling the dog's strength is impossible on a mill. How a dog walks, how hard it pulls, its alertness (or staleness) all these things not only can be seen better walking the dog, but felt better via the connection between him and you through a leash on a walk.




Without a doubt, choosing the correct weight for a dog is, by far, the hardest thing you will have to learn to do. Working a dog requires dedication and knowledge. Calling the correct weight requires knowledge, but it also calls for a skilled feeling and intuitiveness that a lot of people simply never develop irregardless of their time with dogs.

Agreed.

Jack

.

[Blackfoot]

Below is just something I had on my PC...


DETERMINING THE PIT WEIGHT OF YOUR DOG


You’ ve waited all these years. Your puppy has grown into adulthood and he’s been tried and you think he’s a good prospect. Or maybe you ‘ ve purchased a schooled dog and you’ re trying to hook him up. What next?
Stop! Before you go any further, it’s time to evaluate the pit weight of your dog. For some people this part of the game is a breeze. For others it’s pure drudgery. I ‘ve talked to many a good dog man about their way of doing it and nobody seems to explain their answer the same. Some judge by putting their dog through a two week keep and finding out that way. Still others will just guess and hope and they do it right. Then there are those “smart allecks” wh o just seem to know.
So what is the best way? I’m not so pompous as to tell you that my way is the best. What I am goint to do is offer you some guidelines that may help you. It really doesn’t take a superman, a rocket scientist, or a witch doctor to put a dog in tip top shape. With some hard work you can be as good as conditioner as anyone.
Now that you have taken Fido to your vet to make sure he has a clean bill of health, your’e ready to begin his work program. You’ re going top do 5 basic things:

1. Build strength for your dog.
2. Build wind for your dog.
3. Build endurance for your dog.
4. Know the pit weight of your dog.
5. Learn how to put one in tip top shape.

If this is your first time to attempt at guessing the pit weight of your dog, you may want to ask for some help. It’s best to keep accurate records of your dogs which includes bi- weekly or monthly weighing. Chart t he weight and you will see what the actual chain weight of your dog is.
I consider a good chain weight as one where your dog is neither slim (ribs and bones showing) nor too fat. I call it “slick”. If you are aware of the chain weight of your dog, then the guidelines below will offer you some help. I WANT TO SAY HERE AND NOW THAT THE BELOW WEIGHTS ARE NOT CHISELED IN STONE. They are guidelines only. So read on and hopefully you’ll get some valuable information.

CHAIN WT. 30 PIT WT. 26-38 CHAIN WT. 42 PIT WT. 36-39
CHAIN WT. 31 PIT WT. 27-29 CHAIN WT. 43 PIT WT. 37-40
CHAIN WT. 32 PIT WT. 28-30 CHAIN WT. 44 PIT WT. 38-41
CHAIN WT. 33 PIT WT. 29-31 CHAIN WT. 45 PIT WT. 39-41
CHAIN WT. 34 PIT WT. 30-32 CHAIN WT. 46 PIT WT. 40-42
CHAIN WT. 35 PIT WT. 31-33 CHAIN WT. 47 PIT WT. 41-43
CHAIN WT. 36 PIT WT. 32-34 CHAIN WT. 48 PIT WT. 42-44
CHAIN WT. 37 PIT WT. 33-35 CHAIN WT. 49 PIT WT. 43-45
CHAIN WT. 38 PIT WT. 34-36 CHAIN WT. 50 PIT WT. 44-46
CHAIN WT. 39 PIT WT. 35-37 CHAIN WT. 51 PIT WT. 45-47
CHAIN WT. 40 PIT WT. 36-38 CHAIN WT. 52 PIT WT. 45-48
CHAIN WT. 41 PIT WT. 36-39 CHAIN WT. 53 PIT WT. 46-49

CHAIN WT. 54 PIT WT. 47-50 CHAIN WT. 58 PIT WT. 51-54
CHAIN WT. 55 PIT WT. 48-51 CHAIN WT. 59 PIT WT. 52-54
CHAIN WT. 56 PIT WT. 49-52 CHAIN WT. 60 PIT WT. 53-55
CHAIN WT. 57 PIT WT. 50-53

I realize that is not set in stone and there are varying factors which will help you determine pit weight. Lots depend on the build of your dog, his height, and bone structure.
Notice if you have a chain weight dog of 50 pounds, his pit weight should be somewhere between 44-46 pounds. If it’s your first time out, I would opt for the higher weight. If it’s extremely hot, you may opt for the lower weight. I always fought my dogs a little heavy so they’d have something left over after the fight. And remember, as your dog grows older, most likely his weight will increase. I’ve seen dogs that fought at 36 pounds at two years old, fight at 38-441 pounds when 6. If you fight your dog at 46 pounds and he’s most likely a natural 45 pounder , you may be at a slight disadvantage early in the match. But after the fight has gone on anywhere from 30 minutes to 1 hour, your dog will be at his NATURAL weight. Then you’ll be right on the money.
There are other factors which include humidity, altitude, sunlight or shade, that determine the best weight of your dog. If guessing, I have always said that it’s best to guess on the upper end than the lower end. My mentor Don Divine always put his down a little heavy and his percentage of wins is remarkable. Consider the fact that he trained race horses and ran them a little heavy, too. How many times have you heard a man say, “he bit so much harder in his rolls?” Sure he did! He was hydrated and strong. So please look at the above chart and hopefully you’ll get some idea as to what weight your dog will go.


Don Carter . .. ...

[Crofab]

The old man didn't like mills as well, for several reasons, one of which was (as you mention in your second paragraph) feeling the dog's strength is impossible on a mill. How a dog walks, how hard it pulls, its alertness (or staleness) all these things not only can be seen better walking the dog, but felt better via the connection between him and you through a leash on a walk.

He is correct in that you can't feel that on the mill. When I'm using either mill for that process, I always make sure I walk the dog before he is to use the mill. That way I'm able to gauge his strength (along with the other things mentioned), or possible lack thereof, to make a determination on whether I've hit that particular spot or not. The mill is only a way to speed up the process of determining the weight.

[H.B.K.]

This is mr. crenshaw keep also showing hwo to find his correct weight






To begin with you must have a healthy dog. This is a 12 week keep. The first 4 weeks I
walk the dog 10 miles per day. I walk him everyday for these 4 weeks and feed one
hour after the walk. If the show is to begin at 8:00 p.m. then I walk my dog from 5
p.m. to 8 p.m. This 4 weeks is to pre condition the dog and get him close to weight. It is
very important to get all gut or internal fat out of him. If you can't get the fat out from
his intestines, heart, lungs, and liver, you can't put him in shape.
For the first 4 weeks I feed the following:


Not trying to show Mr. C any disrespect but that is a horrible keep and lacks so much that whoever uses that keep is behind be4 they get to the square

1. 1 cup pro plan (chicken and rice) adult formula
2. 1 cup Kellogg's All-Bran
3. 1 or 2 cloves chopped garlic
4. 1 tablespoon chopped spinach
5. 2 cups chicken broth
6. 1 cup cooked chicken

Place items1-2-3-4 in feed pan. Heat items 5-6 (pour over 1-2-3-4)
To make the chicken and broth I place 15 chicken thighs in a 3 gallon stock pot and fill
with water. Cook until tender and place in refrigerator when cool.

WEEK 5:

The walk is still 10 miles (5p.m. to 8p.m). Immediately after the walk, while he is still
warmed up, he gets 5 minutes on the treadmill. When he comes off mill, walk him 30
minutes to cool down. Then rub him down good and put him in his quarters. Prepare
his food an feed him one hour after he comes off the mill. (If your dog is losing
excessive weight, feed more dog food). If he is dehydrated, increase liquid. However, if
he is losing too much weight it is possible you are going at the wrong weight. He should
not have water between mill and feed time. But when you feed him, place at least 1/2
gallon clean water where he has access to it. The water should be changed and the
container cleaned daily. I read once where someone said the green stuff in water won't
hurt the dog.....But you give him one bucket of clean and one green with algae and see
which one he drinks from!!!!!!!!!

Continue each day of week 5 the same. With only 5 minutes mill work, it shouldn't be
necessary to rest him this week. But this keep is only a guide. You have to use common
sense. If the dog is tired or doesn't feel good,"Rest Him".

WEEK 6:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
10 minutes on mill
Rub down
Everything stays the same (If the dog loses weight, add additional dog food). Everything
else stays the same. Be sure to replace water.

WEEK 7:

Walk 10 miles (5pm-8pm)
20 minutes on mill
Rub Down
Everything else same except feed:
With 10 miles walk, 20 minutes on mill, and 30 minutes to cool down, the dog should
be drying out some. At this time I leave all ingredients the same except liquid and
chicken. I put 3 whole chicken thighs (including skin) with bone removed. Broth: add 1
ounce per pound body weight (40 pound dogs gets 40 ounces broth daily). Wait one
hour after mill and feed. Put water so he can drink.

WEEK 8:

Walk Same 10 miles (5pm-8pm)
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes to cool down, Rub down, feed on hour after mill, and replace water.

WEEK 9:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed on hour after mill
REPLACE WATER

WEEK 10:

Walk 10 miles (5p.m-8p.m)
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed on hour after mill
WATER

WEEK 11:

SUNDAY
Begin 10 mile walk at 4 p.m. Finish walk at 7p.m
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 30 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed at 10:30. WATER!!!!!!!!!

MONDAY, TUESDAY, WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY=SAME AS SUNDAY

FRIDAY
Walk 5 miles (ending at 8p.m)
Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes

Mill 20 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (10:10), WATER!!!!!!!!!!

SATURDAY:

Walk 5 miles
Mill 15 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 15 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (10:10p.m) WATER!!!!!!!

WEEK 12:

SUNDAY:
Walk 5 miles ending at 8p.m
Mill 10 minutes
Walk 30 minutes
Mill 10 minutes
Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (9:50p.m) WATER!!!!!!!

MONDAY:

Walk one hour ending at 8p.m
Mill 10 minutes
Walk 30 minutes Rub down
Feed one hour after mill (9:10pm.) WATER!!!!!

TUESDAY:

Today I put the dog in a kennel in my bedroom, keep the room cool and quiet. I take
him out early in the morning for a good walk (about 30-45 minutes). Put him up until
noon and take him for another 30-45 minute walk.
4-pm--walk for one hour
5pm-- feed, put back in kennel
9pm-- walk just long enough for him to empty or urinate. Put in kennel until morning. I
offer him water after each walk before he goes back in the kennel.

WEDNESDAY, THURSDAY, FRIDAY==SAME AS TUESDAY

FRIDAY:

I made sure to arrive at the area of the show at least 30 (THIRTY) hours before
showtime so I could feed the last meal there and to insure my dog got plenty of rest.
8pm. 2cc Dex 2mg-ml. Put under skin, NOT muscle.

SATURDAY:

6am. 5cc Dex under skin

ALL THIS IS A GUIDE IF THE SHOW IS AT 8PM SATURDAY

I never feed but once daily. This will keep your dog regular and insure he is empty at
show time. Next to getting the gut fat out of him, this is the most important: making
sure he is empty at show time. He will get hot an week if he has anything in his
stomach.

To make weight, I use broth without any solids. I strain chicken broth through cheese
cloth and save one pint. You can give this to him up to 3 hours before show time and it
will not do any harm.

And last, this is only a guide. You have to use common sense to apply with any success.
Example:

If the dog loses weight, feed more
If he gains weight, work more or feed less
if he is tired, rest him
if you are lazy and don't work your dog, he won't be in shape
if he is dry, add more broth
if his is too wet, decrease broth

Don't push him too fast. Work according to schedule in pre-keep to prepare him for
work.

Not many people have the ability to condition

I once read an article that Earl Tudor wrote which said he doubted it there was 5 men
in the world that knew how to find a dog's weight, get the gut fat out, and knew how to
condition him after he got the fat out.

I WILL GO ONE STEP FURTHER AND SAY:
If there are 3 today that know this and are not too LAZY to put him in shape, I do not
know them.

GOOD LUCK
IT'S HARD WORK AND TAKES A LOT OF TIME
ow to find his correct weight

[Billy_Sastard]

CH MELONHEAD (17XW)(1XL)

http://i41.tinypic.com/f0xogx.jpg

[Officially Retired]

The old man I knew lost to Gr Ch Melonhead with an 8xW named Doolie in about 2:40.

He said Doolie did never made one mistake, never did anything but the best he could do, the same things that won for him 8x previous, but Melonhead was just too good, on all levels. To this day, the old man believes that whoever beat Melonhead had to have cheated. He didn't think the dog could be beaten by a dog alone.

[R2L]

nice, anyone who still runs melonhead blood?? sounds interesting!

[Coronas]

The old man I knew lost to Gr Ch Melonhead with an 8xW named Doolie in about 2:40.

He said Doolie did never made one mistake, never did anything but the best he could do, the same things that won for him 8x previous, but Melonhead was just too good, on all levels. To this day, the old man believes that whoever beat Melonhead had to have cheated. He didn't think the dog could be beaten by a dog alone.


GRCH Melonhead is my alltime favorite... He is a dog that somehow got a little to the background in pitbull history, I don't know why. Maybe he was not hyped like so many dogs these days.
Anyway... he was reported to have lost one, when he was an older dog (8+). This fight was against Comeaux T-bone.
T-bone was later sold to Europe... where I saw him loose against BB's Tabbs in a long winding match of over 2 hours...

[Officially Retired]

The reason why you never read about Melonhead much, or The Old Man and his dogs, is because they don't want to be known or read about.

As I mentioned, The Old Man has been doing dogs since the 1960s, yet he has never reported ONE match ever. I stayed on one of his properties for 4 years, and I promised him I would never mention his name online, and I have kept my word on that.

For those of you who have read Crenshaw's book, Crenshaw mentions "The Man from Alabama" alot in his book, but never by name. This man likewise is a hugely-influential dogman in the sport, in fact he is the one who schooled Crenshaw, but he told Crenshaw that he did not want to be named in Crenshaw's book at all either, and likewise "The Man from Alabama" never reports any of his deals for a reason either.

Well, "The Old Man" I am referring to happens to do dogs with Crenshaw's mentor "The Man from Alabama" all the time. These lifetime dogmen basically have better match records, and have been associated with more Champions and winning dogs, than the general public will ever realize ... and they want to keep it that way.

The only shame is, by doing so, some truly great dogs (like Melonhead, Robert T Jr, etc.) will never get the credit they deserve in the "regular APBT community" ...

Jack

[PurePit19]

I can definitely respect the way those Old Timers handled business. I believe that a dog should make his own name by the work they put in. There is no hype needed to discribe any of the dogs you previously mentioned. Those fanciers that are true to the dogs and the sport know exactly who those dogs are and what respect they earned. I feel that a major part in the down fall of this sport, is not enough people like your Old Friend. JMO

[R2L]

i think its no crime for these dogman to be proud on the dogs they bred, raised, conditioned and brought to the box. i can respect those who stay in the background but besides that it's just smart or even normal.. to stay out of to picture if you're into illegal stuff.

[R2L]

does the old man happen to have the initials of an A-team member? :mrgreen:

[No Quarter Kennel]

CH MELONHEAD (17XW)(1XL)

WTF, is this real, where they contracted??????????

Alligator blood - Son of Hammonds' Snort.
Dam - debated but thought to be Lilly Langtree type stuff by those closest. But no one knows for sure. Not any more anyways.

His only loss - he was 9 or 10 years old. Can't remember for sure.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Don't remember all the details, but I'm pretty sure Snort was on a yard to be conditioned and compete. While there, they stuck him to a bitch believed to be from the Langtree stuff. Snort, is of course, a son of Rufus ROM.

The lineage is pretty consistent and strong. In order, you have
Rufus ROM (Never bred until 9)
Snort ROM
Park Son ROM
Hailstone ROM

All Hammonds owned dogs, all consistent in producing ability, genentic structure and just a good solid family of dogs.

[bolero]

you want to find weigh work the dog like you would for a match and peak him out thge same way you would for a match and run his last workout as if it were the match and see how he does. this is how one of the greates conditioners of the eighties and nineties dis it

[skipper]

The only way to truly find the right weight is to do a keep!

[EWO]

I have always liked hand walking and dragging some weight on lead to get to the correct weight. I like to feel his strength rather than look at him or checking times. It takes time and when one develops that eye it may be the most important factor in the dogs, as missing the weight can counteract all the hard work, intelligence and experience one might personally possess. Just for numbers sake Let's say a dog is 50 on the chain and "looks" good and "looks" close. At 50 pounds he can drag me and some weight for 5 miles and he is spent (just a number). I feel like 5 is as much as he needs to do to make it in the show. I drop to 49 pounds and he can do everything at 49 he did at 50. I drop to 48 and he does the exact same amount of 'work'. I drop to 47 and at 4 miles he is weak and tired and can't get the work done. 47 is too light for him he needs the other pound. I do not want him competing or performing at the 47 mark so I go up a pound back to 48. He gets the five miles done and is just about spent at that five mile mark because he has worked off another pound and he is down close to that 47 mark where he weakened. So I go up to 49. This is his weight. He can complete his five miles, drop a pound or so due to hard work and not get down to that 47 mark where he was too weak to perform at his peak level of performance. I would call this dog at 49 although he 'looked' good at fifty and performed well at 48, he does not need to carry anymore weight nor does he need to be down on lower threshold.
A dog only has one ideal weight but can win in a 2 to 3 pound window. That depends on the dog. The dog that does not pack lunch because we are not going to be staying very long can carry the weight and then some, yet still come off that weight because he won't be there long enough to lose a pound or more. If the dog needs a marathon effort he will have to be dialed in perfectly so he will still be around after the initial sprint, weather that middle distance race and still have gas in the tank to race to the finish, even at the 26 mile marker. This part of the dogs is far more "art" than "science". And when one gets lucky, the dog is special enough one could miss the weight call and he makes the handler/conditioner look like a genius. And if this special dog could drive and count money, he would not need us at all. EWO

[inkdogg]

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee333/jimbojones_08/melonhead.jpg

[inkdogg]

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee333/jimbojones_08/melonhead001.jpg

[inkdogg]

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee333/jimbojones_08/melonhead002.jpg

[inkdogg]

http://i533.photobucket.com/albums/ee333/jimbojones_08/melonhead005.jpg

[pig mad]

So what if you keep your dog fit and on weight all year round is that a good or a bad thing?

[Limey Kennels]

Actualy it was 18w/1l , and G hammonds told me how his dam was bred about 4 months ago.but i alredy forgot how shes bred.. The dog that beat Melonhead , was called T bone. who was sold to Germany . And he lost from a dog i knew very wel owend bij Mario from Bad Boy kennels germany.. bred bij my frind BVH. STB kennels . Tubbs was out of Stb Dylan x Baby o, Baby o was a direct bitch from Bouls Bobby x Dirty mary. T bone lost in 2,47!!.
Tubbs was 18 months old at the time... a exstra footnote. Baby o had a siter called Black gold who was also bought bij BVH Stb kennels holland. but when mike Harrison died(breeder of these dogs NOT ronald Bouls) his wife send / sold dogs including both bitches to pat patrick . Afther BVH started to press Pat patrick he send one to BVH. but refused to send Black gold . who was alredy bought and also the property of BVH . so he stole that bitch from BVH Stb kennels..
Did not whant to faul up this tread but tought this added to the Melonhead story..

Now for getting a dog on his weight . one way of doing it is to take 1/3 ore 1/4 of his food away. and let the dog SLOWLY lose his fat reserves. while doing nothing at al (when you start working a dog to loose weight , you take the outside fat away first, but lots of the internal fat stays where its at!! giving you a fals view of a dog close to its weight). having a dogh slowly consume his natural fat resourses wil drawn both gut and outside fat away.. This way you wil slowly see a mental change coming in the dog . as hunger trigger his senses, just like a wild animal . he wakes up eurlyer is more actif!!. now if you DO it to QUIKLY the dog will do the oposit he wil get slower and stop being actif!! he would ""just like in winter time"" try to presearf energy!!!!.... when you see the hip bones coming tru( not a lot) the skin and halve the rib cage is viseble. you can slowly pick up working him. as he is both mental and fisical reddy to get of that chain ore out that kennel to seek prey!!... at this time you slowly level his food out. hel stay hungry , but is not loosing anymore weight . every dog is diferend but bij walking him and playing with his food intake a bit you can ""gestimate"" his weight prety wel. now many dogs can been shown at diferend weights , and getting it right the first time is not ez ..

as breeding purety and hybrid viger and yes stile wil detirmen the right weight as wel. as heavy ore deep bred lijnbred inbred individuals lose more weight when shown!!.. and go tru there energy levels mutch quicker, due to lesser hybrid viger presend in these dogs.
These dogs should be shown at 1 to somtimes 1 1/2 lbs over there natural weight. Hens the Battle crosses are known as Battle crosses for a resen . as they have more change to come tru a show and can be drawn mutch finner/thiner and are ezer to work with and they are more forgiven for your screw up,s.... and should have lots of Hybrid Viger in them .
last but not least a dog MIGHT show very wel and spot on at 42 at the start of the keep...BUT can look and behave like s.ht at that same weight at the end of the keep. Not nesersary due to over working them . but ofthen a dog that has been put OUT on a sirtin weight might need ore build up more muscle bulk during te keep then his owner had intisipated...

[Jon P. Lebron]

How long was Melonhead's match when he lost? And was it his last match?

[EWO]

I let the weather and the tasks at hand be the driver for what the dog weighs on the chain. Summer time with nothing on the schedule a couple pounds over where I fee he should be. Winter time with nothing on the schedule 3-4-5 pounds over just for the colder temperatures at night. Summer time with work to be done on weight or maybe a pound over. The winter time with a scheduled appointment down to weight as he will be inside and the temperatures won't be a s big a factor. EWO




So what if you keep your dog fit and on weight all year round is that a good or a bad thing?

[FrostyPaws]

Lebron, I don't remember how long it was, but I believe Melon was 8-9, and it wasn't his last show. He went on to win more afterwards.

[CYJ]

Hello Limey Kennels. Did you mean Barney Fife died or M. Harris? Unless another Harris, I talked with M. Harris about 3 months ago. Barney Fife and Tar Heel were partners many years back and had a very good dog pulling win- lose record. There are many gold nuggets on conditioning in the Crenshaw keep/Barney Fife keep and sure Ca. Jack has some great stuff. Faron's books should as well.

Keeping prospects lean and wormed out before slowly working to weight is important. Walking with a long knotted rope leash and pulling harness. Some type of easy intermit dog trotting road work is still the best way to help reduce the dog slowly and tone up the body. The Old Man was 100% right about that wasting of neck & back end. To properly condition a pulling dog takes time. Can be a total time of 4 to six hours in total a day. The easy AM part usually starts around 5:00 AM to 06:AM. Yahoo

IMHO one piece of equipment that is over looked. Is a extra large proper built running low to the ground round table. Even when one is real dedicated to put the time into exercising the dog. Foul weather can set in and dog can not be worked. You can still get the easy type jogging exercise with the round table while the rain pours and the cold wind is blowing.

Breeding and picking good dogs with a strong prey type drive helps a lot as well. A dog that stays at your feet while walking is pretty much a waste of time. Unless you have a fuzzy cur dog male or female yard dog to help keep one going. LOL

Another mistake is when dog nears the end of the keep. Those last three rest days that are counted backwards from the weigh in time. The dog is not eating on a 24 hour cycle, but is eating on a 28 to 30 hour cycle counting the hour of cool down before dog is allowed water and main feeding.

Many because the dog is just resting go back to a one time 24 hour feeding cycle. That can create trying to make weight, dog to dry or wet nightmare. One reason a dog can run hot is due to not being properly clean out. Seen them pass stool during the dog pull and unable to get a second wind. Note Crenshaw talks about arriving at the Dog Show/weight pull event 30 hours prior.

Is always best to do just one dog pulling show at a time with a forfeit lost if not on time for the weigh in. Multi dog pulling shows will work for some of the dogs and against the others.

V.J. liked to use the last hardest work day and feed amount on that day adjusted out to coincide with the three rest days. Counting backwards from weigh in time. First 30 hour rest day 1/3 amount of feed of last hard work day amount. Second 30 hour rest day feed amount was 1/2 of amount of feed given on that last hard workout day feed amount. Last third and final 30 hour feed is the real kicker. The dog was feed twice the amount of that last hard work out day feed amount. Dog will look like it is pregnant with pups. But you have a full 30 hours for the dog to clean out completely. Most of his dogs were dead on weight or just slightly under. I never remember V.J. having to pay a forfeit for being over weight when I was with him.

Counting time backwards from weigh in. Water left till 24 hour mark. Reintroduced and allowed to drink till lifted head 12 hours before weigh in and 6 hours before weigh in. Dog was rubbed down real good and walked to clean out/weighed and then allowed the water. Real cold weather was allowed some some strong beef broth at the 12 and 6 hour mark.

At each 12 and 6 hour interval the skin was pulled up as well to see if dog was not getting dry. If so was allowed to drink longer as needed. The 3cc of pref Dex 2 was given under skin at 12 hour mark before being put back up. The 1 to 3cc of Azium was given 6 hours under skin before being put back up. Everybody did this different. Barney Fife did his Dex at 6 hours and Azium at 3 or one hour before weigh in.

With this extra time you could walk dog to clean out more often and weigh in right up to 30 minutes or so. This was many years ago and today may be considered obsolete. Sure a lot of better info. is out there. Did have a fellow try this dog pulling feed method a month back. Sent me a nice e-mail and said his dog was on weight and pulled extra strong to win.

If I was active today. Would buy all the latest books/DVD's etc. on working/feeding a dog. Where you live/time you have/equipment you can afford/land mass or area of land to exercise a dog/ and the basic type weather you live in will determine what you can use or do or how to feed. D. Divine was a top Horse conditioner along with the pulling dogs. He told a small group of us one time that properly working a dog was harder than a horse. It's those little foxes that can spoil the grape vine. Before V.J. sat me down and gave me sound advice on keeping it simple. I was the poster child of what not to do to a dog during a keep. When I even got the time to do it. LOL

[Eliman]

.......

[Chase1]

GREAT READ

[MWA]

Actualy it was 18w/1l , and G hammonds told me how his dam was bred about 4 months ago.but i alredy forgot how shes bred.. The dog that beat Melonhead , was called T bone. who was sold to Germany . And he lost from a dog i knew very wel owend bij Mario from Bad Boy kennels germany.. bred bij my frind BVH. STB kennels . Tubbs was out of Stb Dylan x Baby o, Baby o was a direct bitch from Bouls Bobby x Dirty mary. T bone lost in 2,47!!.
Tubbs was 18 months old at the time... a exstra footnote. Baby o had a siter called Black gold who was also bought bij BVH Stb kennels holland. but when mike Harrison died(breeder of these dogs NOT ronald Bouls) his wife send / sold dogs including both bitches to pat patrick . Afther BVH started to press Pat patrick he send one to BVH. but refused to send Black gold . who was alredy bought and also the property of BVH . so he stole that bitch from BVH Stb kennels..
Did not whant to faul up this tread but tought this added to the Melonhead story..

Now for getting a dog on his weight . one way of doing it is to take 1/3 ore 1/4 of his food away. and let the dog SLOWLY lose his fat reserves. while doing nothing at al (when you start working a dog to loose weight , you take the outside fat away first, but lots of the internal fat stays where its at!! giving you a fals view of a dog close to its weight). having a dogh slowly consume his natural fat resourses wil drawn both gut and outside fat away.. This way you wil slowly see a mental change coming in the dog . as hunger trigger his senses, just like a wild animal . he wakes up eurlyer is more actif!!. now if you DO it to QUIKLY the dog will do the oposit he wil get slower and stop being actif!! he would ""just like in winter time"" try to presearf energy!!!!.... when you see the hip bones coming tru( not a lot) the skin and halve the rib cage is viseble. you can slowly pick up working him. as he is both mental and fisical reddy to get of that chain ore out that kennel to seek prey!!... at this time you slowly level his food out. hel stay hungry , but is not loosing anymore weight . every dog is diferend but bij walking him and playing with his food intake a bit you can ""gestimate"" his weight prety wel. now many dogs can been shown at diferend weights , and getting it right the first time is not ez ..

as breeding purety and hybrid viger and yes stile wil detirmen the right weight as wel. as heavy ore deep bred lijnbred inbred individuals lose more weight when shown!!.. and go tru there energy levels mutch quicker, due to lesser hybrid viger presend in these dogs.
These dogs should be shown at 1 to somtimes 1 1/2 lbs over there natural weight. Hens the Battle crosses are known as Battle crosses for a resen . as they have more change to come tru a show and can be drawn mutch finner/thiner and are ezer to work with and they are more forgiven for your screw up,s.... and should have lots of Hybrid Viger in them .
last but not least a dog MIGHT show very wel and spot on at 42 at the start of the keep...BUT can look and behave like s.ht at that same weight at the end of the keep. Not nesersary due to over working them . but ofthen a dog that has been put OUT on a sirtin weight might need ore build up more muscle bulk during te keep then his owner had intisipated...

Great post.

GLOBAL