Crosses vs. Inbred/Linebred bulldogs

[S_B]

If you look at the statistics Jack posted on our very own DOY & runners up as well as GDOY & runners up. Something is apparent take a look...


Would like to point out that 2 of these dogs are completely scatter-bred, while 2 are somewhat linebred.

According to the Wright's Inbreeding Coefficient (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/wic.php), "A 10%-20% WIC is a somewhat linebred dog. Coefficients of 20%-35% are getting into some solid linebreeding in the genetic background, and anything with over a 35% WIC. is an intensely inbred/linebred animal."


Face2Face's Gr Ch Titere (7xW, 3x DOY) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11369&thumbnail=2) = 5.9% at 13 generations;

2The Neck's Ch April (3xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=41074) = 17.3% at 13 generations;

Triangle Gang's Gr Ch Grip (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=45654) = 1.1% at 13 generations;

Corner 2 Corner's Gr Ch Capoeira (5xW, 2x BIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=45766) = 16.1% at 13 generations.



Would like to point out that 3 out of 4 of these GIS winners are inbred, with the other one being linebred.


Wildlife's Ch Lotto (4xW, 1xL, GIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=45768) = 34.9% at 13 generations;

2The Neck's Ch April (3xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=41074) = 17.3% at 13 generations;

Work Kennels' Ch Texas (5xW, 1xL) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=45618) = 52.8% at 13 generations;

Tactician's Ch Homer Balboa (6xW, 1xL, DOY) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=32664) = 28.9% at 13 generations.



It has been told to me by the old fellas I've hung around the 4 way crosses are your match dogs, while your inbred or linebred dogs are your game dogs.

What are some of your thoughts?

S_B

[Officially Retired]

If you look at the statistics Jack posted on our very own DOY & runners up as well as GDOY & runners up. Something is apparent take a look...

It has been told to me by the old fellas I've hung around the 4 way crosses are your match dogs, while your inbred or linebred dogs are your game dogs.

What are some of your thoughts?

S_B


Well, as far as "match dogs" go ... they are ALL match dogs :idea:

And, before the losses, 2 of those Grand Champions (and one DOY) were both highly inbred dogs ...

And, of those 8 dogs, there are 7 distinct individuals (as April won twice) ... and of those 7 individuals only 2 are scatter-bred, 2 are linebred, and 3 are inbred.

So, as far as I can see, linebreeing and inbreeding produced 5 out of 7 of those top-top-notch animals ... and all 4 of the gamest entries.

Of course, Titere is the king of the hill ... but can you really depend on scatter-breeding ... or was Titere the proverbial "Hail Mary" result?

Interesting questions ...

Jack

[S_B]

Well, as far as "match dogs" go ... they are ALL match dogs :idea:

Jack

My thoughts are a dog with ability, smarts, durability and gameness makes for a good prospect. The breeding of the animal is used as a tool for breeding purposes. :D

[Officially Retired]

My thoughts are linebreeding and inbreeding bring you more consistent results ... and while random crosses can bring you some phenomenal dogs ... I wonder how many don't make it by comparison.

The other phenom bitch, Ch Nereyda (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=45747) is 36% inbred at 13 gen.

The other double-DOY Gr Ch Vengeance (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4189) was 39% inbred at 13 generations (while the Gr Ch who lost to him, Hobo (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=6853), was totally scatter-bred%).

Another Grand Champion/Grand Champion-defeating dog was Gr Ch Buck (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=346) who also was 39% inbred also at 13 generations (while the Gr Ch who lost to him, Sandman (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=4146), was only 14%).

Double Gr Ch Tornado (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9349) was 35% inbred at 13 generations, etc.

Tietere is Titere ... but I think this year's crop shows that only 2 out of 8 places came by way of scatterbreeding, 2 by linebreeding, and the rest by inbreeding ...

It is a great topic to be sure ...

Jack

[EGK]

What really gets me is that Titere is really 3/4 line bred Chinaman other than the touches of Hammond and Eli it's consistently brought back chinaman. Even Chinaman brother Boy to his mom is part it his ped. Looking at his I went and did a test breeding of a male back to his mom that was 44.3% coefficient and the same dog bred to his mom sister was only 19.8% coefficient. To me Titere is bred much tighter than the names and coefficiency system tells. Had this discussion with a buddy last night that saw Titere. He said he didnt think Titere would really produce. I really begged to differ. Had my shot I guess to breed to him when he was a 2xw. I just want to be on record as saying I believe Titere will produce. Just look at the 3/4 outside of the very top 1/4.

[ragedog10]

What really gets me is that Titere is really 3/4 line bred Chinaman other than the touches of Hammond and Eli it's consistently brought back chinaman. Even Chinaman brother Boy to his mom is part it his ped. Looking at his I went and did a test breeding of a male back to his mom that was 44.3% coefficient and the same dog bred to his mom sister was only 19.8% coefficient. To me Titere is bred much tighter than the names and coefficiency system tells. Had this discussion with a buddy last night that saw Titere. He said he didnt think Titere would really produce. I really begged to differ. Had my shot I guess to breed to him when he was a 2xw. I just want to be on record as saying I believe Titere will produce. Just look at the 3/4 outside of the very top 1/4.

Thats a good eye and if you look at the Hammond stuff you will see that its just a touch!
As for his production time will tell gotta keep in mind he was only bred twice on the hunt. The tricky thing with him is you can go three diffrent ways with him and still have a shot!
For us it wasnt so much as to lining up names in his ped to names in our bitches ped but more so breeding the BEST female we had at the time that also brought a hell of a lot to offer on her own!

[EWO]

I do not think there is an actual term for trait breeding outside the family of dogs being used. If one breeds within a family, be it inbreeding or line breeding, it is the traits that are the desired results. So a lot of scatter bred dogs are _________ (fill in the blank with the new word for 'trait bred' outside family lines). Scatter bred usually carries a negative connotation.

Lots of scatter bred dogs were bred in the 'best to best' mindset. If both of these 'best' dogs were game dogs, good head dogs, better than average mouth with a lot of ability lots of times these traits will pass if bred back to the same. The negative aspects of scatter breeding is when it is two individual dogs with no bloodline in common and no traits in common, but both were good dogs, and I think that is where the 'Hail Mary' comes in to play.

Lots of those monsters come along when the low percentage freak mouth dog is bred to the talented game dog in hopes of all those traits finding their way into that one puppy. And when it happens it is usually in that one puppy. And that one puppy is usually where it stops.

I doubt breeding unrelated dogs with the same traits will be the same percentages as line breeding or inbreeding but I do think breeding unrelated dogs with the same traits is a step up from scatter breeding. EWO

[EWO]

Posted about Ch. Angel some time ago. Her story is really similar to that of Rushin' Bills 35. She was free. She was bought out of the paper buy a knot head kid who pawned it off on his Mom and Grandmother. They had her in a 10X10. She climbed it every day and went to my buddy's house to 'play' with all those dogs he had tied out. He carried her home every day. Finally the lady asked him to take her. Here is a dog, a new 10X10, a new igloo house, a couple bags of food and an expensive bicycle attachment. Just take her no charge.

Ch. Angel left four or five RIP dogs in her wake. Two of her three wins were RIP in the box and one shortly thereafter. She won BIS once and GIS once. She was not a monster of any sorts but she worked and worked hard until she got where she wanted to be and when she got there it was pretty much over.

She had papers and we did not know any of the dogs. A person could not purposely scatter breed a dog any more. Odds are if you bred a bulldog in the late 90's you get some credit for creating this killer. Damn near every breeder and every bloodline was crammed into her six generation pedigree. She put the scatter in scatter bred.

She was bred to a tightly bred Bolio male that was consistently breeding winners and got like 1 good dog out of the four that were born. She was bred to a Redboy/Bolio dog who also had produced winners, crosses as well, and got nothing.

The scatter bred method worked in that instance. But after being skull drug and killing her way to the Ch. title, that was it. End of the line. She was the 'Hail Mary'. EWO

[Officially Retired]

What really gets me is that Titere is really 3/4 line bred Chinaman other than the touches of Hammond and Eli it's consistently brought back chinaman. Even Chinaman brother Boy to his mom is part it his ped. Looking at his I went and did a test breeding of a male back to his mom that was 44.3% coefficient and the same dog bred to his mom sister was only 19.8% coefficient. To me Titere is bred much tighter than the names and coefficiency system tells. Had this discussion with a buddy last night that saw Titere. He said he didnt think Titere would really produce. I really begged to differ. Had my shot I guess to breed to him when he was a 2xw. I just want to be on record as saying I believe Titere will produce. Just look at the 3/4 outside of the very top 1/4.


I agree with you.

I have posted elsewhere that I think the Redboy in Titere is more of a "fluke" than anything else, as there are many multi-winning, Champion-defeating, 5-7xW linebred Chinaman-type dogs, but it would be a long search to find such a multi-winning purebred Redboy dog :idea:

Rather than be heavily bred on a particular Chinaman dog, there are many different "Chinaman dogs in general" back behind Titere, with the Boomer out and the pinch of Hammonds, which is mostly Carver blood anyway. Titere is definitely the type of dog to "drop anchor" with. If it is possible to breed him back to his mother, or one of her sisters, I would do it in a heartbeat. Or a littermate sister to his father. Anything I could do to preserve/replicate that "genetic mix" is something I would most definitely be in the process of doing.

Whoever says that you "can't breed dogs too tight" and win at the top of the food chain needs to re-read my post 5 posts ago ... and then read the top post and study the fact that 5 out of 7 dogs which received our Highest Honors this year are line- to inbred animals. A man could literally spend the rest of his life line- and inbreeding on Titere and never go "too tight" with him ... but they could isolate and harness his genetic superiority with the right line/inbreeding decisions, and by keeping and going forward with the right individuals.

I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time trying "new crosses" with Titere, who is already an amalgamation of crosses himself. I would be trying to preserve and replicate him, by using his closest relatives, and making sure the most promising pups get into the most capable hands, who also know how to take care of pups.

Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for :idea:

That is a step most people can't accept or won't take ... the proverbial gold-digger who stops 3' from a vein of gold, and goes home (treasure undiscovered) because "it didn't pan out so far" ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Posted about Ch. Angel some time ago. Her story is really similar to that of Rushin' Bills 35. She was free. She was bought out of the paper buy a knot head kid who pawned it off on his Mom and Grandmother. They had her in a 10X10. She climbed it every day and went to my buddy's house to 'play' with all those dogs he had tied out. He carried her home every day. Finally the lady asked him to take her. Here is a dog, a new 10X10, a new igloo house, a couple bags of food and an expensive bicycle attachment. Just take her no charge.

Ch. Angel left four or five RIP dogs in her wake. Two of her three wins were RIP in the box and one shortly thereafter. She won BIS once and GIS once. She was not a monster of any sorts but she worked and worked hard until she got where she wanted to be and when she got there it was pretty much over.

She had papers and we did not know any of the dogs. A person could not purposely scatter breed a dog any more. Odds are if you bred a bulldog in the late 90's you get some credit for creating this killer. Damn near every breeder and every bloodline was crammed into her six generation pedigree. She put the scatter in scatter bred.

She was bred to a tightly bred Bolio male that was consistently breeding winners and got like 1 good dog out of the four that were born. She was bred to a Redboy/Bolio dog who also had produced winners, crosses as well, and got nothing.

The scatter bred method worked in that instance. But after being skull drug and killing her way to the Ch. title, that was it. End of the line. She was the 'Hail Mary'. EWO


In hindsight, knowing what I know about linebreeding and inbreeding for 25 years with the same dogs I started with, if you would have taken (say) that one good male off of her, and bred that male back to her, I would bet a million dollars to a penny you would have "upped" your percentages.

Had you bred the one good other dog back to her, you would have "upped" your percentages ...

And had you interbred those two mother/son groups of dogs together, you might have had the beginnings of a bloodline.

The thing about random-bred dogs is the randomness of what you can expect out of them ... however, if you get "that one" that comes out the way you'd hoped, you take that one right back to the great random-bred dog itself, to INbreed on that great dog, and you'll see your % go up considerably in the next output ...

Jack

[EWO]

True, well said. EWO

[BigEazy]

Great post Jack... S_B the ole timers I know always spoke of a 3 way cross... ie Jeep/Redboy/Rascal

[Officially Retired]

Great post Jack... S_B the ole timers I know always spoke of a 3 way cross... ie Jeep/Redboy/Rascal

Thanks.

Did you know there are more winning (and higher-level winning) straight Jeep/Rascal dogs without the Redboy ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

True, well said. EWO

It is like Zebo/Honeybunch. Both great dogs. Both ROM producers (Honeybunch at the top of the heap of all bitches).

Yet, bred together, they didn't get squat.

In hindsight, knowing what I know, had someone taken the best-built, nicest bitch back to Zebo ... and the best-built, nicest male back to Honeybunch, I would (again) bet a million dollars to a penny that then they would have gotten the "world beaters" they all dreamed about :idea:

Gr Ch Zebo (7xW, ROM) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=515) was himself yet another highly-inbred, Champion-destroying animal (58% at 13 generations), and going out to Honey, and then back into himself, would surely have produced some awesome, inbred Zebo stock ... that would have nicked better with the Jeep/Otis/Honeybunch stock than the first effort did.

Jack

[S_B]

Thanks.

Did you know there are more winning (and higher-level winning) straight Jeep/Rascal dogs without the Redboy ...

Jack

I beg to differ...Jeep/Redboy dogs far out number straight Jeep/Rascal crosses minus the Redboy.

They both were great crosses Redboy being bred from the Colby stuff just like Bo's side of Jeep. And Rascal playing toward Honeybunch's side of the pedigree. In fact Bo was inbred on Colby's Dime, Redboy's grandfather.

I'm no pedigree wizard but those three individuals (Jeep/Redboy/Rascal) being bred together was no mistake. The best to ever cross the scratch line imo.

S_B

P.S. A good number of the winningest dogs were in the hands of the most accomplished dogmen. That makes all the difference in the world.

[BigEazy]

Thanks.

Did you know there are more winning (and higher-level winning) straight Jeep/Rascal dogs without the Redboy ...

Jack

Do you also know that anyone can tell you how a dog is bred and not be true. Also in my part of the woods, it's hard to get anything without redboy. I have the old trim moody/wee hunt/honeybunch dogs from Irish Jerry and the supposedly jeep/rascal/no redboy dogs. They all have produced buckskin red nose dogs. Which is why I starting buying the tab/Amber stock which then led me to the paladin/Virgil stock. I can give you a black redboy dog and tell you it's Eli stock...

[EWO]

True. The Mountain Man once said the only way to tell how a dog is bred is to win three or four and someone will always come out of the woodwork and know how he is 'really' bred. EWO

[Officially Retired]

I beg to differ...Jeep/Redboy dogs far out number straight Jeep/Rascal crosses minus the Redboy.

They both were great crosses Redboy being bred from the Colby stuff just like Bo's side of Jeep. And Rascal playing toward Honeybunch's side of the pedigree. In fact Bo was inbred on Colby's Dime, Redboy's grandfather.

I'm no pedigree wizard but those three individuals (Jeep/Redboy/Rascal) being bred together was no mistake. The best to ever cross the scratch line imo.

S_B

P.S. A good number of the winningest dogs were in the hands of the most accomplished dogmen. That makes all the difference in the world.


You don't have to beg to differ, it's okay to just differ :)

I am not talking "volume" of breedings made I am talking altitude of achievements ...

[Officially Retired]

Do you also know that anyone can tell you how a dog is bred and not be true. Also in my part of the woods, it's hard to get anything without redboy. I have the old trim moody/wee hunt/honeybunch dogs from Irish Jerry and the supposedly jeep/rascal/no redboy dogs. They all have produced buckskin red nose dogs. Which is why I starting buying the tab/Amber stock which then led me to the paladin/Virgil stock. I can give you a black redboy dog and tell you it's Eli stock...

You're talking apples and oranges.

I am talking about the original Jeep/Rascal dogs and people who won with those dogs.

You're talking a later era, long after the Redboy crosses were made.

I realize some people claim dogs are bred differently, as long as you realize not everyone does.

Jack

[S_B]

You don't have to beg to differ, it's okay to just differ :)

I am not talking "volume" of breedings made I am talking altitude of achievements ...


:lol: Ok Jack!

Well I knew you weren't speaking volume, and after I re-read what I posted I realize it sounded as though that's what I was saying.

There are many highly accomplished Jeep/Redboy crosses I will post them as I get time. :D

[Officially Retired]

:lol: Ok Jack!

Well I knew you weren't speaking volume, and after I re-read what I posted I realize it sounded as though that's what I was saying.

There are many highly accomplished Jeep/Redboy crosses I will post them as I get time. :D

I won't deny there are many accomplished Jeep/Redboy crosses ... but I said winningEST (not just winning) ;)


Here are three of Jeep/Rascal (Rascal/Honeybunch) dogs (no Redboy) I don't think any Jeep/Redboy/Rascal dogs will equal:

Gr Ch DaBeast (7xW, DOY) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38065)
Gr Ch Sampson (5xW, 5x BIS) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=33990)
Mountain Man's Ch Homer (4xW)ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=2079)

Two of which beat 2 Champions and a Grand Champion ... the other is the baddest dog Lester Hughes ever owned, him and Zebo, and he's been in the middle of all the Jeep-type mixes ;)

Jack

[S_B]

Here are a few Jack, I think they compare pretty well with the addition of Redboy.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=21651 Smokin Joe 8xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=9811 Tank 5xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=28565 Rambo 5xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=3464 Tramp 4xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=11104 Clyde 4xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=20564 Ernie 4xw
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1360 Cobra 4xw



Jeep/Redboy/ and...

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=7498 Nine Mili 5xw DOY
http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=23661 Willie Jr 5xw

I'm sure I missed several....

Redboy has and continues to produce his ass off and deserves recognition. I'm not a Redboy fan per say, but I just don't think a dog like him can be down played.

S_B

[Officially Retired]

C'mon, The Bailey's Gr Ch Rambo is a joke.

If you're going to put The Bailey's GR CH Rambo, that's fishing :lol:

I don't know Smokin Joe 8xW ... who did he beat to be warrant him being compared with Gr Ch Da Beast and Gr Ch Sampson (both of whom faced the elite of the game)?

I don't think any of those dogs are at the level of the 3 dogs I put ... and there are more

Snakeman's Gr Ch Pedro (9xW, ROM) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1202)
Snakeman's Gr Ch Rush (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=8311)
Johnson's Gr Ch Macho (5xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=46199)

[S_B]

Smokin Joe is legit Jack. Rambo was found during my search hell take him out of the equation I'm ok with that.

And Pedro & Rush aren't "Jeep" bred nice try. :lol:

Just go ahead and add GR CH MACHO to my list, his momma is half REDBOY!! :D

[Officially Retired]

Smokin Joe is legit Jack. Rambo was found during my search hell take him out of the equation I'm ok with that.


Um, yes, he needs to come out.

I didn't say Smokin Joe wasn't legit ... I asked if he beat the level of dogs Da Beast and Sampson did (Champions/fellow Grand Champions)?

Just curious.




And Pedro & Rush aren't "Jeep" bred nice try. :lol:

Um, Honeybunch was bred to Rascal's brother Oso Negro to get Pedro's mama ... making her Jeep's half-sister.

And he was bred back to Rascal to get Pedro.

That is 3/4 Rascal/Oso, 1/4 Honeybunch ... no Redboy.




Just go ahead and add GR CH MACHO to my list, his momma is half REDBOY!! :D

LOL

[No Quarter Kennel]

Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for

Jack, can you expand on this please?

[Officially Retired]

Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for

Jack, can you expand on this please?

For example, I made the outcross to Ch Big John and 4 out of 7 pups wound up quitting.

Of those 4 quitters, 2 of them were still decent dogs, Little Big John (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=46218) (who stopped totally exhausted at 1:39) and Siren Girl (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=38493) (who beat a 1xW, then a 4xW, but who then quit in 1:00 on her Championship bid, her 3rd match in 1 year)]. Siren Girl also stopped every dog and bitch on the yard of her previous owner.

Then there were 2 rank curs, Dr. Death (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=1695) and Anthrax (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10136), who quit in :12 and :19 on my yard to Poncho Jr. and Duke Nukem, respectively. These two rank curs had looked great on other people's dogs on their first couple of rolls, so I bred Doc back to his mother Screamer, and I bred Anthrax to his half- (and Duke Nukem's full-) sister Athena Red ... a bit prematurely, before having put them with legitimately good dogs. We also bred Anthrax to Poncho Jr.'s sister Cindy.

Anyway, after these dogs quit, I got rid of them ... and sold all their pups cheap ... but, over time, nearly every single one of these pups either won matches or passed severe game tests, one becoming a Champion, another couple winning 100% dead game (literally dying minutes after they stayed with it long enough to win), one beating Stone City in 2:12, another being so devastating and talented it prompted Killer Bees to call me and say, "That is the best dog I have seen in 15 years." Not a single dog from any of these "second-step" breedings back to my core dogs quit (though a few I never heard about after I sold them).

So my point is even the RANKEST of my outcrosses, when bred back to my core game stock, threw Champions, winners, and DG dogs in very high percentages like I'm used to getting.

Therefore, when you make that "killer cross" ... which proves disappointing at the first step (like Zebo/Honeybunch) ... don't be afraid to breed one of those pups back to one side or the other of the pedigree, because there is where the greatness may well be found, in that next step (not the first one) :idea:

Jack

[No Quarter Kennel]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Would it be safe to assume, I'm asking you here, that if you make that "killer cross" and get some actual killers, look to take them back to the side of their gene pool they most resemble then?

I appreciate it and it explains some dogs I've seen. I've seen some great crosses on paper but didn't like one side of the breeding. The dogs would turn out like that BAD SIDE. However, I've seen those dogs taken back to the GOOD side to get 3/4 "X" and 1/4 "Y" and it pans out great.

Thanks Jack

[Officially Retired]

Thanks, I appreciate it.
Would it be safe to assume, I'm asking you here, that if you make that "killer cross" and get some actual killers, look to take them back to the side of their gene pool they most resemble then?


Of course, yes. That would go without saying: if you get fabulous results from the cross, inbreed back to each parent.

What I am actually saying, though, is EVEN if you're disappointed with the cross (since crossing is a gamble) inbreed the best-structured bitch back to the male, and the best-structured male back to the bitch, and *then* your cross may work all the more.

For example, when they bred Gr Ch Zebo ROM to Ch Honeybunch ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=515&dam_id=467), the results were mediocre nothings ... and they stopped, just dropped what they were doing and forgot about it. What I am saying is if they would have taken one of those DUD females back to Zebo ... and one of the dud males back to Honeybunch they may well have hit a gold mine either way.

I relayed my own real-world example, that worked 3-out-of-3 times. When I bred Doc back to Screamer, and Anthrax back to both Screamer's daughter as well as a Poncho/Mayday bitch, I got 100% successful competitive, winning litters ... no dog matched lost, no dog matched quit, 1 dog made Champion, 1 dog beat SCK in 2:12, 2 dogs proved dead game, all dogs produced winners ... and, again, that was breeding the *worst* pups in the litter ... let alone the best pups in the litter.

Most veteran breeders don't like to outcross much because it's a gamble. You create "more uncertainty" with crossing, whereas with line- and inbreeding (with a common style/goal) you create more certainty. The reason why taking even an average pup back to one of the great parents is because you're now creating an even greater likelihood that you'll get that "fabulous dog" again. Look at a lot of these "world beating" Grand Champions on the other page: Tornado, Titere, Vengeance all have "1/4 out" ... and even Buck is 1/8th Zebo.

So if the straight cross doesn't work, the 3/4, 1/4 cross may well be the recipe. I know it was in the Big John/Screamer breeding.




I appreciate it and it explains some dogs I've seen. I've seen some great crosses on paper but didn't like one side of the breeding. The dogs would turn out like that BAD SIDE. However, I've seen those dogs taken back to the GOOD side to get 3/4 "X" and 1/4 "Y" and it pans out great.
Thanks Jack

In the Zebo/Honeybunch breeding, there was no "bad side" :D

A person could have taken a male back to Honey, or a bitch back to Zebo, and either would have been a fabulous 3/4, 1/4 effort. I would have definitely fed one :D

So, I guess what I am trying to say is (for example) Bulldog Anonymous is talking about breeding Gr Ch Titere to Ch Boomslang (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=11369&dam_id=45199). It is the typical "breed a Champion to a Grand Champion breeding ... that gets everyone drooling ... but, in reality, breedings like this very rarely produce "more world beaters" but just average, good dogs. They should not let this stop them!

Instead, what I am saying is, they should breed the best bitch back to Titere, and the best male back to Boomslang, and then they may well get their world beater ;)

As another example, there was the "breeding of the decade," when they bred Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM) to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=346&dam_id=1919) ... and do you know what they got from these two aces? AVERAGE DOGS :crying:

And they stopped there. They just made random breedings with the game palooka, Abraham's Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10408). (Don't know what happened to the rest of the litter.) Again, my point is they should have bred Bull back to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts, and they should have bred his sister back to Gr Ch Buck, but they didn't. Being dog matchers, they didn't know how to breed, they shied away from inbreeding, so they "stopped" going forward with the effort to KEEP that badassness. (At least by going straight back to Buck or Queen.) However, when they made a breeding of Bull to Ch Sunshine (bred very much like The Queen) they got Ch Freak Nasty (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=28125).

The fact is truly badass dogs are very often HIGHLY inbred/linebred animals (Gr Ch Buck, Gr Ch Zebo, Gr Ch Tornado, Gr Ch Vengeance) ... and very often the first cross isn't the one that produces that great dog, it's the next step, the bringing it back to one key side of the pedigree again, that creates the world-beater.

Just giving something to think about to those looking to breed to "a world beater" ... don't forget to do it again :mrgreen:

Wouldn't you like to see 3/4 Buck, 1/4 Queen pups? Or 3/4 Queen, 1/4 Buck. (Or Zebo/Honeybunch?) I know I would.

Jack

[CrazyRed]

This is a great post and I’m mad I’m late to the party, but I did want to comment on a few things I was told about some of the gentlemen’s dogs listed in this post. I know the Zebo x Honeybunch breeding didn’t work like thought, but many of them were also utterly wasted in an accident. There was 1 or 2 I think that were kept and they were bred for a while and old rumors are the male was producing some really good dogs. I don’t think the folks who had them ever had a thought of giving them a shot to earn their keep simply because of the parents.

With Bull is a misunderstanding that he was just some average dog, he was everything besides average in what I was able to see. He was everything between his parents but didn’t carry the mouth that his mother did. He was an extreme finisher, and he was a very powerful dog. He had great style and was a good head dog and when he got you down he finished you. He had about a 7 mouth but was as strong as a dog you would ever touch and smart. He also turned out to be one heck of a producer, he had a few siblings who didn’t get a shot because soon as they hit the hands of others, they were retired before their puppy teeth fail out.

The breeding of Bull x Queen wasn’t done because, 1. time ran out and 2. they had bred Queen and her powerful barnstorming style to mostly Slick dogs who were all winners and had produced a few dogs. The belief was really that she was just a freak of nature and wouldn’t be able to produce. She shocked and did produce but nothing close to what she was which is to be expected. They didn’t want to inbreed on her because at the time, many Boyle’s bred dogs were showing to pull up. You had good % of dogs win but not to many showed to be game, so thought was if you inbreed you going to start getting more culls than dogs worth the feed. After a few offspring showed not to have her mouth but had her strength and some very good heart they started to concentrate more on her offspring. Then Bull beat a damn good bad ass 2x up this way, having an all-out war, then he was retired. He started to get bred and after the first few breeding’s he was showing to be a decent producer. Bull got bred to many of his half-sisters and produced many good dogs. He was a ROM producer and higher. Before I left the area to go East a little bit, I know of 2 yards who had offspring off Bull (full litters) but were registering them as something else because they “didn’t want people to know the recipe” and when Edward was arrested is when the melee really started. It was a young dog off Bull who was 12 months old won he won his first over a CH in the area, by some new jacks and it shocked everybody. Well the guys they beat who are pretty well known, bought the dog off these young guys and changed his ped and won his titles under a brand new pedigree and that was the story for several. Most said they changed it because they didn’t want to be associated with Edward after him being arrested.

The breeding of Bull back to his sisters were the best and when they took daughters off that blood and bred to Bull again were also real good breeding, and Edward also had other dogs off Buck that he bred to Bull and a son of Bucks who was a real good dog and he was bred to some of those daughters to Queen and they produced excellent as well. When they bred those back to Bull the results were unreal. It was Double Buck & Double Queen and the offspring were amazing. Bull really started to produce great when bred to Eli bitches and Boomerang bitches, that’s when they were getting the offspring that resembled and showed off like Buck & Queen. There were 2 famous sons of Bull in the area that were like reincarnations of Queen herself, one mad Ch. and the other only 1 or 2x before Ed was sent away. It’s still some of that blood around, but not like it used to be, some is on the West Coast with another friend and some still in the area but he did produce a lot more than folks would know and without proof of pics or the internet it’s hard to prove it. Those in the area know a lot about what went down, Bull and his offspring had a chance to really get on the map as the % were outstanding but as is life.

[Officially Retired]

Great post CrazyRed. Thanks for clarifying on Bull's ability, but essentially you confirmed my key points: The dogmen who owned the Queen never bred any sons back to her because "they assumed" that she couldn't produce herself.

I don't have too much time, but wanted to say I appreciate your post and thought I'd make just 2 comments:



2. they had bred Queen and her powerful barnstorming style to mostly Slick dogs who were all winners and had produced a few dogs. The belief was really that she was just a freak of nature and wouldn’t be able to produce. She shocked and did produce

Translation: They didn't give Queen a chance to produce herself, because they (like so many others) "assumed" The Queen couldn't reproduce herself, and so they didn't inbreed on The Queen and make the attempt to isolate those genes :idea:




The breeding of Bull back to his sisters were the best and when they took daughters off that blood and bred to Bull again were also real good breeding, and Edward also had other dogs off Buck that he bred to Bull and a son of Bucks who was a real good dog and he was bred to some of those daughters to Queen and they produced excellent as well. When they bred those back to Bull the results were unreal. It was Double Buck & Double Queen and the offspring were amazing.

Translation: When they made after-the-fact inbreedings on Bull (who was not the freak, or ace, but a very good dog off of them), some of the genes still inadvertently tightened anyway and demonstrated elevated performance in the pups.

So, like I said, as a breeder of the same line for 25 years, I can tell you that inbreedings WORK if you inbreed on the right dogs.

As good as Bull was, he was neither Buck nor The Queen :idea:

Had Bull been bred back to The Queen, I know at least a few of those pups would have been phenomenal.

Had his sister been bred back to Buck, ditto.

My message for the people who breed to Titere is DON'T MAKE THIS MISTAKE and "assume" that inbred Titere pups "won't be good" ... my message is this: if you breed the right daughters back to him, they will be HIS BEST :idea:

Jack

[CrazyRed]

Oh I'm with you I'm a complete fan of Inbred dogs. I prefer Linebred dogs and if there is a cross I like it to come from within the family. I agree I wish they would of bred Bull back to her as well just to preserve some. I think they gave her a chance, she had about 5 or 6 litters, and sadly almost 85% of the offspring off her never got a tooth because folks just wanted to say they owned one. I'm happy they did breed her offspring together and they showed it was strong and that's where those monsters came in. She had a few sons that were badass dogs like her but it was in her daughters and I think more dogmen in that time, focused less on showing the gals. I think it's still common today but back then it was like the male had to prove it where a female could get a pass. I think it was misjudged and they were looking for the badass freaks in the boys, but the badass was in the girls but the producing gene was showing in the boys.

I agree had that breeding took place, I'd bet my left nut, some would of been great and the ones who weren't probably would of been some of the best producers. If I'm not mistaken a daughter off Queen was taken to Buck, and I believe something off that was taken back to a son of Queen that turned out really well. Memory is fading but I recall it but I know even they regret not taking Bull back to Queen. They were trying to keep game, natural winded head dogs on top of her so that way if the pups got her power they also could keep some good air. It was more strategy than saying, F it, i got this freak of a dog here and I'm going to see if inbreeding on her would work. If only we could find that time-machine.

I know you're busy, glad to have seen this convo will check back later to see what else you guys add, this was another great post that I loved. Oh and yes, I would most certainly inbreed on Titere not just because he's a monster, but his ped is loose enough that inbreeding won't hurt you none and if i had a game daughter off him, even if she don't have mouth or whatever to be shown, I'd run her ass back to him so quick I'd slip over the breeding stand lol. That dog is certainly one you want to double up on and breed his half siblings back to and even a daughter back to.

[ragedog10]

Breeding around Titere is the plans here at D.M.D'K we are breeding his heavy redboy daughter back to his litter mate brother we are also breeding a game ass daughter to a bad ass son of his. Then the plans are to take some of the best 50% Titere grands back to him! Just a small inside of a crazy mind with these few key breedings we plan to cap on Titere and also the dogs that made him.
We were the only ones willing to breed to Titere when he was open for stud for all most two years with no takers!!! Go figure.
Noone understood his style and most are used to a barnstorming leg,chest,stifle or your head dog but with Titere showing he could think for himself figure most out in the first 15 and finish most could not understand how could a dog be this dam smart!
We bred him to another 50/50 bitch that is ruff smart as F@#k and game and out a all game litter whom we will breed half bro/sis off her and also a great son back into her this line ine showing wat it takes to put a stamp on history!

[No Quarter Kennel]

Of course, yes. That would go without saying: if you get fabulous results from the cross, inbreed back to each parent.

What I am actually saying, though, is EVEN if you're disappointed with the cross (since crossing is a gamble) inbreed the best-structured bitch back to the male, and the best-structured male back to the bitch, and *then* your cross may work all the more.

For example, when they bred Gr Ch Zebo ROM to Ch Honeybunch ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=515&dam_id=467), the results were mediocre nothings ... and they stopped, just dropped what they were doing and forgot about it. What I am saying is if they would have taken one of those DUD females back to Zebo ... and one of the dud males back to Honeybunch they may well have hit a gold mine either way.

I relayed my own real-world example, that worked 3-out-of-3 times. When I bred Doc back to Screamer, and Anthrax back to both Screamer's daughter as well as a Poncho/Mayday bitch, I got 100% successful competitive, winning litters ... no dog matched lost, no dog matched quit, 1 dog made Champion, 1 dog beat SCK in 2:12, 2 dogs proved dead game, all dogs produced winners ... and, again, that was breeding the *worst* pups in the litter ... let alone the best pups in the litter.

Most veteran breeders don't like to outcross much because it's a gamble. You create "more uncertainty" with crossing, whereas with line- and inbreeding (with a common style/goal) you create more certainty. The reason why taking even an average pup back to one of the great parents is because you're now creating an even greater likelihood that you'll get that "fabulous dog" again. Look at a lot of these "world beating" Grand Champions on the other page: Tornado, Titere, Vengeance all have "1/4 out" ... and even Buck is 1/8th Zebo.

So if the straight cross doesn't work, the 3/4, 1/4 cross may well be the recipe. I know it was in the Big John/Screamer breeding.





In the Zebo/Honeybunch breeding, there was no "bad side" :D

A person could have taken a male back to Honey, or a bitch back to Zebo, and either would have been a fabulous 3/4, 1/4 effort. I would have definitely fed one :D

So, I guess what I am trying to say is (for example) Bulldog Anonymous is talking about breeding Gr Ch Titere to Ch Boomslang (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=11369&dam_id=45199). It is the typical "breed a Champion to a Grand Champion breeding ... that gets everyone drooling ... but, in reality, breedings like this very rarely produce "more world beaters" but just average, good dogs. They should not let this stop them!

Instead, what I am saying is, they should breed the best bitch back to Titere, and the best male back to Boomslang, and then they may well get their world beater ;)

As another example, there was the "breeding of the decade," when they bred Gr Ch Buck (7xW, ROM) to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts (8xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_testbreeding.php?sire_id=346&dam_id=1919) ... and do you know what they got from these two aces? AVERAGE DOGS :crying:

And they stopped there. They just made random breedings with the game palooka, Abraham's Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=10408). (Don't know what happened to the rest of the litter.) Again, my point is they should have bred Bull back to Gr Ch Queen of Hearts, and they should have bred his sister back to Gr Ch Buck, but they didn't. Being dog matchers, they didn't know how to breed, they shied away from inbreeding, so they "stopped" going forward with the effort to KEEP that badassness. (At least by going straight back to Buck or Queen.) However, when they made a breeding of Bull to Ch Sunshine (bred very much like The Queen) they got Ch Freak Nasty (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_profile.php?dog_id=28125).

The fact is truly badass dogs are very often HIGHLY inbred/linebred animals (Gr Ch Buck, Gr Ch Zebo, Gr Ch Tornado, Gr Ch Vengeance) ... and very often the first cross isn't the one that produces that great dog, it's the next step, the bringing it back to one key side of the pedigree again, that creates the world-beater.

Just giving something to think about to those looking to breed to "a world beater" ... don't forget to do it again :mrgreen:

Wouldn't you like to see 3/4 Buck, 1/4 Queen pups? Or 3/4 Queen, 1/4 Buck. (Or Zebo/Honeybunch?) I know I would.

Jack

Thanks Jack
This totally disproves any theories by those "hard-core" dogmen who won't allow a bad dog/average/quitter in a pedigree aye?

[Officially Retired]

Thanks Jack
This totally disproves any theories by those "hard-core" dogmen who won't allow a bad dog/average/quitter in a pedigree aye?

Exactly.

Most people "repeat what they hear," like parrots, without any understanding whatsoever about what they're saying.

It's the same thing with inbreeding.

Most people "assume" inbred dogs can't fight ... yet, when put under the microscope, these people have no actual experience inbreeding over time (and no knowledge of how to read a pedigree, apparently) ... because the fact is, inbred dogs make up many (if not the majority) of the winningest, most devastating dogs in the history of the sport.

And certainly the lion's share of the gamest, most dependable dogs too.

Jack

[SHOWBOX]

I agree with you.

I have posted elsewhere that I think the Redboy in Titere is more of a "fluke" than anything else, as there are many multi-winning, Champion-defeating, 5-7xW linebred Chinaman-type dogs, but it would be a long search to find such a multi-winning purebred Redboy dog :idea:

Rather than be heavily bred on a particular Chinaman dog, there are many different "Chinaman dogs in general" back behind Titere, with the Boomer out and the pinch of Hammonds, which is mostly Carver blood anyway. Titere is definitely the type of dog to "drop anchor" with. If it is possible to breed him back to his mother, or one of her sisters, I would do it in a heartbeat. Or a littermate sister to his father. Anything I could do to preserve/replicate that "genetic mix" is something I would most definitely be in the process of doing.

Whoever says that you "can't breed dogs too tight" and win at the top of the food chain needs to re-read my post 5 posts ago ... and then read the top post and study the fact that 5 out of 7 dogs which received our Highest Honors this year are line- to inbred animals. A man could literally spend the rest of his life line- and inbreeding on Titere and never go "too tight" with him ... but they could isolate and harness his genetic superiority with the right line/inbreeding decisions, and by keeping and going forward with the right individuals.

I certainly wouldn't be wasting my time trying "new crosses" with Titere, who is already an amalgamation of crosses himself. I would be trying to preserve and replicate him, by using his closest relatives, and making sure the most promising pups get into the most capable hands, who also know how to take care of pups.

Another thing about breeding dogs to remember, when dealing with cross-type dogs, is your first effort to inbreed might be disappointing ... but if you linebreed it back again, you get what you're hoping for :idea:

That is a step most people can't accept or won't take ... the proverbial gold-digger who stops 3' from a vein of gold, and goes home (treasure undiscovered) because "it didn't pan out so far" ...

Jack


An absolutely OUTSTANDING post!!!!!

SHOWBOX

[Officially Retired]

An absolutely OUTSTANDING post!!!!!

SHOWBOX

Gratzi ... I hope someone listens with access to this dog listens :-?

[ROCK-MACHINE]

Some of the nicest breeding's to be made with El' Titere were when he was on SM's yard before he was sold to White Diamond Kennel in Central Europe, most are still young but some are just coming into their own and showing well. It would appear though that El' Titere is producing no matter how the bitch is bred.

https://i.imgur.com/MSfYbsL.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/rz4aIdL.jpg

http://www.strattonpitbull.com/grand-champion-el-titere-2/grand-champion-el-titere/

[bossman311]

I still believe in line breeding crossed dogs.

Use patterns to go out side and add new stuff & maintain hy-bred vigor.

Try different ways and not focus on a single way or strain.

Some get bred tighter than others and some are bred just to put a kick back into the family if bred to thin away from base.

from some like this one.


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=69538

to some like this one

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=76571&thumb_id=21283

[Frank43]

I still believe in line breeding crossed dogs.

Use patterns to go out side and add new stuff & maintain hy-bred vigor.

Try different ways and not focus on a single way or strain.


I’m new trying to piece a line together. My plan is to line breed crosses. Try to breed to the middle. Hopefully keep the same

Some get bred tighter than others and some are bred just to put a kick back into the family if bred to thin away from base.

from some like this one.


http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=69538

to some like this one

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=76571&thumb_id=21283


Thanks for resurrecting this. I’m trying to build a line breeding thing with a core of blood with similar traits. Use some half brother sisters to keep it fresh. I can post some peds on some potential directions

[bossman311]

Sounds like a plan Frank43.
Can't go wrong with the 1/2 brother x sister. breeding. I have more than 1 family but with some families I stick with that style of line breeding 1/2 bro/sis over & over. Cousins ( Belly mates outcrossed and put back together )also works the same way.
That style of breeding maintains hybred vigor a little more to me.

[EWO]

Agreed 1/2 brother 1/2 sister is the easiest way for a non-breeder like me to make breeder like decisions.

Some of the better heavier Red Boy dogs I have seen are the ones with multiple strains of Red Boy. 1/2 brother 1/2 sister can get three-four-five strains of Red Boy with out risking 'in bred Red Boy dogs'.

Good topic.

EWO

[Frank43]

I was thinking use gameness, durability in the breedings in the dogs that i think are responsible for it. Then breed to different studs. Add athleticism, style or finish with the different studs Hopefully keep the co efficient of inbreeding down and keep what traits that I want in it. Seems like ti would work in theory. Crews did it with his rocky III dog. Still like 50 percent rocky III as a grandfather. He bred it to different females. I think this is beautiful. Hopefully the real life matches the paper. I think if you can stick to the plan and be selective of what you were looking for when you made the breeding it should.

http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=46547

[ROCK-MACHINE]

What really gets me is that Titere is really 3/4 line bred Chinaman other than the touches of Hammond and Eli it's consistently brought back chinaman. Even Chinaman brother Boy to his mom is part it his ped. Looking at his I went and did a test breeding of a male back to his mom that was 44.3% coefficient and the same dog bred to his mom sister was only 19.8% coefficient. To me Titere is bred much tighter than the names and coefficiency system tells. Had this discussion with a buddy last night that saw Titere. He said he didnt think Titere would really produce. I really begged to differ. Had my shot I guess to breed to him when he was a 2xw. I just want to be on record as saying I believe Titere will produce. Just look at the 3/4 outside of the very top 1/4.

This post ^ was from 2015 and how right he was as El' Titere now has as of the time of my post produced 5 champions and has shown to produce regardless of the dams breeding.

I have read through this old thread a number of times now and have learned something each time.

I would love to read anyone with a pedigree analytical mind to post their thoughts on Gr Ch Croata's pedigree and why in their view he has proven to be such a prolific producer regardless of the dams breeding as it escapes me.

https://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=42662

[Frank43]

What was the dog like individually? Now I look at the dogs I have and how they are. I look at the pedigree and wonder who is responsible for what.