Starting a family off of a scatter bred or outcross dog

[ASAP]

How many have tried this with success?

[FrostyPaws]

All you have to do is look at the ROM list, or think of any number of producers, and see lines have been started on a lot of outcross dogs.

I can't think of any particular family that was started on a scatterbred type of dog though.

[Milehighmisfit]

How many have tried this with success?

No, I never have but was curious about a couple things. If you are doing this you must have a really special individual worth building off of. If so, do you have access to one of its liter mates that is also of very high quality to bred the dog to? Or do you have access to either the sire or dam of the dog you wish to build the line off of or a close relative. If its scatter bred or a cross, some inbreeding would probably be in order to solidify certain traits and tighten up the gene pool. Maybe based on the phenotype of the dog you can figure out what side of the pedigree he is pulling from and breed in that direction?

If the dog you are building on is a cross of 2 pure families then hybrid vigor comes into play possibly which means it will probably nor reproduce him/herself. Lines created by a cross of 2 pure lines like Redboy/Jocko or Redboy/Jocko/Jeep so to just keep the right blend going and it seems to work for future generations. lines created off a scatterbred dogs like the Alligator/Rufus (Hammonds line) were pretty heavily inbred initially either back to one side of the family or brother to sister to solidify the gene pool.

Is this hypothetical or are you trying to do it???? Very curious :)

[ASAP]

No, I never have but was curious about a couple things. If you are doing this you must have a really special individual worth building off of. If so, do you have access to one of its liter mates that is also of very high quality to bred the dog to? Or do you have access to either the sire or dam of the dog you wish to build the line off of or a close relative. If its scatter bred or a cross, some inbreeding would probably be in order to solidify certain traits and tighten up the gene pool. Maybe based on the phenotype of the dog you can figure out what side of the pedigree he is pulling from and breed in that direction?

If the dog you are building on is a cross of 2 pure families then hybrid vigor comes into play possibly which means it will probably nor reproduce him/herself. Lines created by a cross of 2 pure lines like Redboy/Jocko or Redboy/Jocko/Jeep so to just keep the right blend going and it seems to work for future generations. lines created off a scatterbred dogs like the Alligator/Rufus (Hammonds line) were pretty heavily inbred initially either back to one side of the family or brother to sister to solidify the gene pool.

Is this hypothetical or are you trying to do it???? Very curious :) Just a hypothetical question. Have a few pups being giving to me that are outcrossed. Tight linebred to a loosely linebred bitch.

[Black Hand]

You can create anything you want. Just depends how much time and effort you are willing to spend. It just helps when continuing someone else's work or picking up where someone left off if you shared some-what of a similar vision.

[loot]

I beleive it would take a long time to get what your looking for. Good luck

[ASAP]

This are the 2 dogs that have been bred http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=17928 http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=49208

[Officially Retired]

As with anything, your chance of success depends on percentages in the litter(s) and selection afterwards :idea:

There is no "one" answer; there is no "magic pill" :idea:

One person may succeed where you may fail ... or you may succeed where another one fails.

Those dogs are bred well enough to have a legit shot.

IFFFF the individuals you display are GOOD ENOUGH to warrant a line being bred off them, then give it a shot.

But if you're just trying to "build a line" off mediocre, nothing dogs, then why waste your time?

However, if the quality of the dogs is outstanding enough to warrant you devoting a lifetime of dedication to preserving it, then that alone demands you try to do so :idea:

Jack

[ASAP]

As with anything, your chance of success depends on percentages in the litter(s) and selection afterwards :idea:

There is no "one" answer; there is no "magic pill" :idea:

One person may succeed where you may fail ... or you may succeed where another one fails.

Those dogs are bred well enough to have a legit shot.

IFFFF the individuals you display are GOOD ENOUGH to warrant a line being bred off them, then give it a shot.

But if you're just trying to "build a line" off mediocre, nothing dogs, then why waste your time?

However, if the quality of the dogs is outstanding enough to warrant you devoting a lifetime of dedication to preserving it, then that alone demands you try to do so :idea:

Jack

This is something I pretty much knew but it just more reassuring coming from somebody with your experience! lol Thanks!!

[CrazyRed]

As with anything, your chance of success depends on percentages in the litter(s) and selection afterwards :idea:

There is no "one" answer; there is no "magic pill" :idea:

One person may succeed where you may fail ... or you may succeed where another one fails.

Those dogs are bred well enough to have a legit shot.

IFFFF the individuals you display are GOOD ENOUGH to warrant a line being bred off them, then give it a shot.

But if you're just trying to "build a line" off mediocre, nothing dogs, then why waste your time?

However, if the quality of the dogs is outstanding enough to warrant you devoting a lifetime of dedication to preserving it, then that alone demands you try to do so :idea:

Jack

Exactly and great post. I think more folks would do better once they start being more honest with themselves, every dog that does good in a roll or even wins a show don't mean he's worth building a line around. You have to know percentages, of his litter, if possible of other litters that sire & dam produced. Was this litter their best or does pop throw this every time or does dam throw this every time. The more information you can get to analyze the better, doesn't guarantee anything but #s might not tell the whole story but they don't lie either.

[Officially Retired]

Exactly and great post. I think more folks would do better once they start being more honest with themselves, every dog that does good in a roll or even wins a show don't mean he's worth building a line around. You have to know percentages, of his litter, if possible of other litters that sire & dam produced. Was this litter their best or does pop throw this every time or does dam throw this every time. The more information you can get to analyze the better, doesn't guarantee anything but #s might not tell the whole story but they don't lie either.


Good post.

Another thing to keep in mind, if the dogs are really good, is NOT to stop at the first generation ... because you may need "one more" breeding step to solidify the percentages :idea:

Some dogs aren't very good producers ... as sires ... but they are as grandsires/granddams :idea:

In other words, the first generation may not be the dogs you hope, but taking another breeding step (to isolate the genes) might be required.

For example, Ch Hammer was considered NOT to be a very good producer ... yet he was a living DG dog and was out of an all-game litter. Many people told me "not" to breed to Hammer, because he "couldn't produce," but I ignored their bad advise and bred to him with Miss Trinx, who was also out of an all-game litter. The result? I got an all-game litter of absolutely prepotent producers :D

Moreover, on my double-, triple-, and quadruple-bred Hammer dogs, I continuously enjoyed high-percentages ... even though Ch Hammer was not thought of as a "good producer."

The truth is, (2) Ch Hammer's real pedigree wasn't known, (2) most people did not breed Ch Hammer to the same-quality bitch as I did, and (3) most of the idiots who had Hammer pups were rolling the shit out of them at an early age.

By ignoring the "advice" of UNsuccessful idiots, and by realizing that Ch Hammer was as close to DG as a live dog could be, came from an all-game litter, and by breeding him TO a truly quality bitch, I was able to create the cornerstone of my own bloodline, using my own ideas, and I produced more winners and quality dogs than ANYone who poo-pooed the idea of my breeding to Hammer.

I was confident that Hammer could produce, if bred to the right bitch, and if the pups were done right.

So, again, let your own gut, knowledge, and beliefs be your guide ... never "anyone else's" ...

Jack

[dtakennels]

What about Jeep and Yellow...Those 2 did rather well.

[Officially Retired]

What about Jeep and Yellow...Those 2 did rather well.

LOL, true.

However, Yellow wasn't scatterbred, he was a straight cross out of 2 inbred animals.

But they both came from fabulous litters, so yeah, when dogs of that quality appear ... in those kinds of percentages in their litters ... it's time to drop anchor and build a bloodline.

[CrazyRed]

What about Jeep and Yellow...Those 2 did rather well.

I was about to say the same thing. You most certainly have to drop anchor there and see where that takes you. Yellow being a good 50/50 was worth because you had 2 familes to test breedings with.. Depending on how you view Jeep ped, it wasn't really scatter. Ped that shows, his top side is pretty much a colby dog.. Some believe Bo was actually inbred Cotton's Bullet.. But if you look at the bottom side it's not scatter either if you believe it. Bullyson inbred Blind Billy dog, Dibo.. bred to Amber Double grandaughter of Black Widow.. Some believe Amber to be a double bred daughter of Cracker or believe that Honeybunch is truly off Ch Cracker which would make sense.. But while Jeep isn't inbred based on the posted ped his parents are heavy linebred dogs.

[Officially Retired]

Some believe Amber to be a double bred daughter of Cracker or believe that Honeybunch is truly off Ch Cracker which would make sense..

I was going to say that as well ;)

Typically, for a dog to come from a high-percentage litter, and to be prepotent, at least 1 of the parents has to be an inbred/linebred animal.

Doesn't hurt if you keep breeding the offspring back to one side (or the other) of the pedigree either, as is what was perpetually done with both dogs.

Jack

[bossman311]

How many have tried this with success?

Yes Sir. Doesn't matter how you start but how you finish.
The best way to get working dogs is to work dogs,keep going to it's so consistent you can see it in your sleep.
I started with them so no one claim claim them.
Here's a recent breeding. few have dogs this tight & very few have this much hands on exp. per generation.
If you like the dogs & they work get it started & stick with it.
Don't worry about famous dogs, you make them famous if that's what you are into.
Scatter or not you can make them tight.

[bossman311]

Her's another one of mines bred from scratch on a based on a great dog Johnie Rockhead.