ECONO RAW FEED PROGRAM

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack - or anyone else who knows.

I have gone back to my RAW feed program. I feed the works basically.

If I wanted to opt for the Econo version (Chicken, Rice, Lard, Vitamin) would Bee Pollen be a good/better/best alternative for the Multi Vitamin? If not, would there be an alternative that would qualify as good or better?

I like the idea of sprinkling in the Bee Pollen over the rice or something to that affect as opposed to the vitamin. Believe it or not, I got a couple of dogs, no matter where you hide a capsule, pill, vit. ect., they will find a way to eat everything and spit that damn thing out.

Thanks and good day to all!

[Doc Ellis]

I like greens (kale,collard,etc) instead of the pills.
I used bok choy this spring and it seemed to work well; was easy and quick to grow and me and the dogs liked to eat it

[No Quarter Kennel]

That's cool and all and I use veggies on my full meal deal as well, however, I am looking specifically for an alternative, easier to add to their meal, than a multivitamin.

Sounds like Bee Pollen could be the alternative.

[Officially Retired]

Bee Pollen is kind of a complete food (mostly amino acids/proteins).

If you're going "econo" ... then I am wondering why bee pollen?

It certainly is more expensive than a vitamin pill.

PS: Full Veggie Mix is (blended in a VitaMix (https://www.vitamix.com/Shop/Professional-Series-500)) would be better than any pill.

[No Quarter Kennel]

Jack, didn't think the whole "economic" angle through. Really just looking for something easier to administer than a pill b/c I have a few finicky canines who pick pills out of whatever I put them in.

And, overall, it would be cheaper to feed bee pollen with the "econo raw" method than it would be to feed all the organs, eggs, oils, etc. that I feed now.

I can get over 40lbs of Chicken Thighs for $20 right now, so I'm under .50 cents a pound on that portion of my feed. I typically end up at 1.30 or somewhere in that range for my raw feed. If I can go more economical, for a maintenance base feed, it would benefit me overall.

Thanks for the input

[SGC]

That's a good deal on the chicken thighs. I like the meat to bone ratio on thighs and that is what I was feeding mostly. And canned mackerel when I got it cheap, deer meat when we had it, cooked eggs, etc.

A suggestion on the multi vitamin pill, some of those come as a gel cap and you could open it and put the powdered vitamins on their food. I have done this with other pills and I had some human prenatal vitamins in gel caps that I would open and use part of on my old dog's food. She was one to spit out any pill.

I would add coconut oil and salmon oil to any diet, both are excellent oils and do different things. And some soil based probiotics are good, I found these for a low price on Amazon --

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004E1W0DQ?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

Bee pollen is a helpful thing to add, start with a little and gradually increase it. Apple cider vinegar with the mother in it is also a good supplement. Also plain full fat yogurt or kefir are worth adding.

And I would add some cooked chopped veggies here and there, all my dogs liked kale, sweet potatoes, and butternut squash. Cooked carrots and cooked broccoli stalks are fed too on occasion.

I've fed raw, and raw with kibble before. Thinking about it, the econo version of raw uses cooked rice, would a high quality kibble be a better "filler" than the cooked rice?

Now the kibble would be more processed of course, but it would have more meat and vitamins in it, i.e. more nutrition than just cooked rice. Cooked rice as filler, would brown rice be a better choice than regular long grain white rice?

[apeman]

Jack, didn't think the whole "economic" angle through. Really just looking for something easier to administer than a pill b/c I have a few finicky canines who pick pills out of whatever I put them in.

And, overall, it would be cheaper to feed bee pollen with the "econo raw" method than it would be to feed all the organs, eggs, oils, etc. that I feed now.

I can get over 40lbs of Chicken Thighs for $20 right now, so I'm under .50 cents a pound on that portion of my feed. I typically end up at 1.30 or somewhere in that range for my raw feed. If I can go more economical, for a maintenance base feed, it would benefit me overall.

Thanks for the input

why not go to CVS and pick up a pill crusher to crush your vitamins and sprinkle/mix with your feed.

[heritage]

I start with a bowl of rice. I add sunflower oil , a little canine red cell, kelp granules, and finally a can of jack mackerel.

This is fed in addition to chicken backs for my econo raw.

[Officially Retired]

why not go to CVS and pick up a pill crusher to crush your vitamins and sprinkle/mix with your feed.

Good idea. There is also Dog Bloom (http://www.dogbloom.com/store/p10/Dog_Bloom_VM_Supreme.html) supplement, which is pretty good.

[BONEDADDY]

Good idea. There is also Dog Bloom (http://www.dogbloom.com/store/p10/Dog_Bloom_VM_Supreme.html) supplement, which is pretty good.

Jack, I used that back in the 80s. I didn't think that it was still around.

[scratchin dog]

I've been adding Nupro supplement to my dogs' raw diet for many years. http://www.nupro.com/

[CRISIS]

I use the "pro sense canine multivitamin" from wally world. $5 for a bottle of 80 & i believe theyre liver flavored. My dogs think theyre "treats"...

[No Quarter Kennel]

Thank you everyone. Lots of good ideas here. I appreciate the input.

[Kimo615]

if the object of feeding the dogs a raw diet is to give them a better and healthier diet, one which avoids them having to take in the many undesirable and sometimes harmfull products found in dry food, then why are we looking at feeding them cheap raw chicken for example that is only cheap because of the way it has been produced ,by feeding the chickens the cheapest food they can , then pumping those same chickens full of antibiotics and steroids , which guess what goes into your dogs system , so when people are talking about feeding raw because they got 40ilbs for $20, that's actually not a good deal at all ,if the health of your dog is actually what your trying to inhance , theirs always a reason why things are cheap , quality always costs more and for a reason, so why feed meat which has been raised on terrible food itself in squalid conditions and then pumped full of drugs, and think its going to be good for either you or your dog to eat ? it just doesn't make sense does it, and if you can spend money on bee pollen which is very expensive, then i would say spend the money on organic or at least good quality free range chicken or meat that you can verify has not been pumped full of drugs , otherwise why bother feeding a raw product that is just as bad as most kibbles , apart from the fact it makes us feel better psycholgically that were feeding raw .

[EWO]

Good point in theory.

But the cheaply fed and medicated chicken is still better. The biggest deal with the cheaper dry foods is that a lot of the things the dog needs is cooked out of the dry food.

I agree it would be better to upgrade to an organic and/or naturally fed free range chicken. But an econo-raw program is better that an econo-dry program. The econo-raw is still comparable to some of the high end dry foods.

I do the econo version myself and still feed dry food on occasion. Neither is perfect. One better than the other but one more convenient than the other.

When it is way cold outside like it is now I feed the econo raw version as a normal feeding. Then early evening I make a chicken broth/veggie mix with dry food. Basically it is cheap calories on the colder nights.

Good series of posts.

EWO

[Kimo615]

Good point in theory.

But the cheaply fed and medicated chicken is still better. The biggest deal with the cheaper dry foods is that a lot of the things the dog needs is cooked out of the dry food.

I agree it would be better to upgrade to an organic and/or naturally fed free range chicken. But an econo-raw program is better that an econo-dry program. The econo-raw is still comparable to some of the high end dry foods.

I do the econo version myself and still feed dry food on occasion. Neither is perfect. One better than the other but one more convenient than the other.

When it is way cold outside like it is now I feed the econo raw version as a normal feeding. Then early evening I make a chicken broth/veggie mix with dry food. Basically it is cheap calories on the colder nights.

Good series of posts.

EWO

Hi ewo, im not sure i agree that the econo is better than kibble , eventhough all kibble is heated , because there are some very good quality kibbles out there which don't have the drugs in them like the cheap chicken and other meats have in them, so if i could only afford cheap drug filled meat , i might still be looking at the better quality kibble and then add some other quality extras ,because we do have the info these days on why those chickens are so cheap , and im still not convinced that feeding my dogs meat that is basically poisend and not going to be good for my dogs long term health is a good idea , and if folks can afford to buy bee pollen which is not cheap to add to their dogs feed, then why are they not buying good quality meat rather than cheap discount meat full of drugs, that's completely defeating the purpose of adding other products like bee pollen when the main feed is drug filled chicken , its like a fat man going to the gym to shed some weight then when he gets home eats a tub of ice cream which he thinks is ok because hes been to the gym so psychologically he feels like he not doing anything wrong , which defeats the purpose of going to the gym in the first place .

[Tastyrib]

Econo raw diet is still vastly superior to dry dog food......which is essentially sawdust with a vitamin. Road kill would be a better option than dry kibble.

While cattle are given steroids/growth hormones, it's been illegal For decades in the poultry industry.

[Kimo615]

Econo raw diet is still vastly superior to dry dog food......which is essentially sawdust with a vitamin. Road kill would be a better option than dry kibble.

While cattle are given steroids/growth hormones, it's been illegal since the 50's in the poultry industry.

I agree that most kibbles are not ideal, but there are some good quality ones, but they cost a lot more , and I think your mistaken about what chickens are pumped full of these days , they are still being pumped full of anitbiotics and steroids to increase size and shorten the growth time, and the anitbiotics are to keep them alive as they die from disease and the squalid conditons and poor feed they get to eat they just use a different terminology to get around any laws , so If I could only afford cheap chicken or any meat produced by the meat industry under those conditions, then I would rather spend more on the best kibble and then add top quality extras like bee pollen and oils veggies etc , because lets face it there is a reason you can buy chicken so cheap and its not because its going to be good for you or your dogs long term health , infact its designed not to be good of our health , but that's another debate about human depopulation and the food industrys involvement in that.

[Tastyrib]

I agree that most kibbles are not ideal, but there are some good quality ones, but they cost a lot more , and I think your mistaken about what chickens are pumped full of these days , they are still being pumped full of anitbiotics and steroids to increase size and shorten the growth time, and the anitbiotics are to keep them alive as they die from disease and the squalid conditons and poor feed they get to eat they just use a different terminology to get around any laws , so If I could only afford cheap chicken or any meat produced by the meat industry under those conditions, then I would rather spend more on the best kibble and then add top quality extras like bee pollen and oils veggies etc , because lets face it there is a reason you can buy chicken so cheap and its not because its going to be good for you or your dogs long term health , infact its designed not to be good of our health , but that's another debate about human depopulation and the food industrys involvement in that.

I don't think I'm mistaken. Yes, they are given antibiotics, but not growth hormone or steroids. If they are they are doing so illegally. I imagine there are other ways to cut the price than pumping chicken full of drugs....which I'm not sure would decrease the price anyway......drugs cost money.

Sorry, but I don't get your logic regarding the less expensive chicken. You wouldn't feed it, but you would feed dog food that probably uses even less expensive chicken, then burns it into kibble.

imo, that human approved chicken is still 100x better than any bag of dog food.

[Kimo615]

I don't think I'm mistaken. Yes, they are given antibiotics, but not growth hormone or steroids. If they are they are doing so illegally. I imagine there are other ways to cut the price than pumping chicken full of drugs....which I'm not sure would decrease the price anyway......drugs cost money.

Sorry, but I don't get your logic regarding the less expensive chicken. You wouldn't feed it, but you would feed dog food that probably uses even less expensive chicken, then burns it into kibble.

imo, that human approved chicken is still 100x better than any bag of dog food.
im not saying that kibble is better than good quality chicken , what I am saying is that I would prefer to feed a top quality
kibble which is out there and add top quality supplements rather than feed chickens which are fed absolute crap as feed and also pumped full of antibiotics which then get into the dogs system and our own if we eat them , if the whole purpose of feeding raw is to not feed our dogs the crap contained in most kibbles , so why feed chicken that's is no better full of drugs,when there are some top quality kibbles out there which don't have all the crap the others do ,and use better protein sources than other kibbles do ,and at least we know that until we can afford the better chicken then at least is not going to kill our dogs any quicker feeding them top kibble rather than bad kibble or crap chicken .

[Nut]

Iv fed the most expensive raw feed and kibbles. Since 6 months or so I feed a cheap yet very decent kibble. The dogs love it just the same, their shit is good, they feel good, they look good. So really couldn't give a f what anyone thinks. It's not like we eat the most healthy food ourselves, you find added crap in every product.

[Tastyrib]

Iv fed the most expensive raw feed and kibbles. Since 6 months or so I feed a cheap yet very decent kibble. The dogs love it just the same, their shit is good, they feel good, they look good. So really couldn't give a f what anyone thinks. It's not like we eat the most healthy food ourselves, you find added crap in every product.

Who was saying they gave a shit what you feed? Not my dogs, feed what you want.

[Tastyrib]

im not saying that kibble is better than good quality chicken , what I am saying is that I would prefer to feed a top quality
kibble which is out there and add top quality supplements rather than feed chickens which are fed absolute crap as feed and also pumped full of antibiotics which then get into the dogs system and our own if we eat them , if the whole purpose of feeding raw is to not feed our dogs the crap contained in most kibbles , so why feed chicken that's is no better full of drugs,when there are some top quality kibbles out there which don't have all the crap the others do ,and use better protein sources than other kibbles do ,and at least we know that until we can afford the better chicken then at least is not going to kill our dogs any quicker feeding them top kibble rather than bad kibble or crap chicken .

I know that's not what you are saying. I just disagree. Even crap chicken is better than kibble IMO. Hell, the truth is most chickens are pumped full of antibiotics and housed in poor conditions....whether they cost .39 lb or 1.50 lb. If people want chicken free of drugs they will have to do what you do and feed free range from a a small farm.....which isn't viable for most.

But we can agree to disagree.

[Officially Retired]

Iv fed the most expensive raw feed and kibbles. Since 6 months or so I feed a cheap yet very decent kibble. The dogs love it just the same, their shit is good, they feel good, they look good. So really couldn't give a f what anyone thinks. It's not like we eat the most healthy food ourselves, you find added crap in every product.

Speak for yourself.

And the fact is, you haven't owned dogs long enough to have the first freaking clue about the LONG TERM affects of good nutrition vs. bad nutrition :idea:

Some people actually do eat healthy.

If you are a Dollar General buyer, and think Dollar General bologna is as good as choice meats, that is just your ignorance.

If you think that, because an 18 year old kid "looks the same" eating potato chips as a kid who eats healthy ... maybe you should revisit "how each looks" 30 years later, repeatedly-eating bad vs. good nutrition :shocked:

Lazy fucken people (as well as critically-stupid people) try to downplay the importance of nutrition ... while successful, accomplished people never do :idea:

It's not about "how your dog's shit looks" ... it's about how long you can maintain their impeccable health and reproductive function.

That is where the importance of long-term good nutrition comes into play :idea:

Jack

[EWO]

This is a perfect example of the warm fuzzies and "YOU feed your and I will feed mine".

I feed the dogs they way that works for me, and what I think is working for them. Is it the absolute best plan out there? I doubt it. But it works for me.

The 18 year old and potato chips is a pretty good analogy but people who eat healthy and exercise and best use the medical advice available to them kick off early too. It is an odds game. Put things is your favor the best you can and then after that, "It is what it is".

Anyone here who has had dogs for any length of time have seen the next guy put half the effort with half the knowledge and have dogs live much longer still producing.

EWO




Iv fed the most expensive raw feed and kibbles. Since 6 months or so I feed a cheap yet very decent kibble. The dogs love it just the same, their shit is good, they feel good, they look good. So really couldn't give a f what anyone thinks. It's not like we eat the most healthy food ourselves, you find added crap in every product.

[Officially Retired]

This is a perfect example of the warm fuzzies and "YOU feed your and I will feed mine".


No, actually, it is merely a perfect example of self-justification for laziness and minimalism.

The difference between one owner trying his best for his dogs (as he expects his dogs to try their best for him), and another owner being a half-ass and only feeding what is necessary "to keep his dogs alive," but no more than that.




I feed the dogs they way that works for me, and what I think is working for them.

This is nonsense. What do you define as "working for you?" How to spend as little money as possible, just to ensure your dogs are "still alive" when you wake up?

To bury one's head in the freaking sand as to the difference between optimal nutrition, and 'barely passable' nutrition, is simply negligence. Laziness.




Is it the absolute best plan out there? I doubt it. But it works for me.

I doubt it is the best plan out there as well ...

Don't know what "works for you" means; it's a nonsensical statement.




The 18 year old and potato chips is a pretty good analogy but people who eat healthy and exercise and best use the medical advice available to them kick off early too. It is an odds game.

You are confusing the FACT that optimal nutrition = optimal health with ANOTHER FACT that some people/dogs are born with genetic weaknesses to make them expire early. (But you, and people like you, argue this mixing of facts to justify feeding shit food.)

The FACT is, feeding one 18 year old nothing but potato chips will ALWAYS create a sad-looking, unhealthy, middle-aged adult.
The other FACT is, feeding another 18 years old optimal nutrition + exercise will make that person a healthy, vibrant middle-aged adult.
(Genetic predispositions for problems notwithstanding.)

In keeping with this, EVERY dogman I have ever known, who fed kibble to his dogs their whole lives, has fat/soft, fucked-up looking middle-aged/elderly dogs. EVERY one of them.

They ALL look the same "when they're young," no matter what you feed them ... just like an 18 year old eating potato chips looks the same as an 18 year old eating optimally ...

The difference is not in how they look young ... the difference becomes unmistakable as to how they age :idea:




Put things is your favor the best you can and then after that, "It is what it is".


That is EXACTLY the point: feeding an optimal raw diet *IS* putting things in your (dog's) favor ... not feeding shit-kibble.

Realize the difference.




Anyone here who has had dogs for any length of time have seen the next guy put half the effort with half the knowledge and have dogs live much longer still producing.
EWO

Again, you're confusing genetic predisposition with one group of dogs for THE FACT optimal nutrition = optimal results, in ANY group.

And, genius, I *AM* a guy who fed a group of dogs (that were genetically pre-disposed to cancer) kibble for the first 10 years of my dogmanship ... and watched dog-after-dog die of cancer at ages 3-6 ... and watched that same group of dogs live and produced 2-3 TIMES as long, fed a raw diet.

Ultimately, this is a waste of my time.

Lazy foggen people are lazy foggen people. They will "look for a way OUT" of doing their best, every time.

Conscientious people are contientious people, and they will look for a way TO DO their best, every time.

It is pretty much as simple as that.

And I know which ones deserve the good dogs they get, and which ones do not.

The desire to do one's best (willingness) is an admirable trait, while the desire to avoid doing so (unwillingness) is a character defect.

The great irony is the fact that, in the dogs, we breed for the former, and cull the latter ... so it is difficult to observe the latter trait in those "dog owners" who try to call themselves dogmen.

Jack

[EWO]

I would like to see the studies other than what you believe to be "OPTIMUM". Show me the studies you have created

I bet MARS and PROCTOR/GAMBLE and PURINA have some studies and facts to differ/to say otherwise.

I feed an econo version of raw since the late 90's/early 2000's. I use chicken and a scrap box from a local butcher. I feed deer meat in the winter. I add different kinds of oils through out the year. In the few days of the year the temps stay in the 30's here I do make a chicken/dry food soup for the cheap calories on their second feeding for that day. And like I said, it works for me.

I don't look for organic this or range fed that. If leg quarters are on sale I take advantage. If that makes me a half-ass then so be it. If I get free collards right before they are plowed under and that too makes me a cheap ass, well again, then so be it.

So if free collard greens and leg quarters on sale reveal a character flaw, again so be it.

EWO

[Officially Retired]

I thought you were agreeing with the "cheap kibble" post up top.

There is nothing wrong with the way you feed IMO ... it's the way dogs eat in nature: whatever they get (live food, dead food, etc.).

[EWO]

Nope. I was saying even the cheap raw chicken is better than dry food, comparable to high end dry food.

I read the first post as the dry food would be a better option than 'non organic/non-medicated/non-free range' chicken.

I think feeding raw chicken from a commercial chicken house is still a better option than the what is left from the kibbling process.

EWO

[Officially Retired]

Okay, my bad then, we agree.

I also believe cheap raw chicken actually far better for a dog than ANY dry, kibbled food.

Apologies for the assumption.

[CrazyRed]

I agree EWO, some cheap grocery store feed that Is regular grade is 100x better than some Kibble. The food is still edible enough for human consumption so I'll take that all day long over some heat dried food.

[EWO]

When I had the Fila Brasileiros a number of years ago I did this co-op thing where we bought in bulk and split the meats up. It worked for awhile til a few of the tree huggers found out my dogs did more than sleep on the couch all day.

Anyway, if a group can get together without a huge inconvenience feeding raw can be even cheaper. Two or three or four can buy damn near a whole cow and get it all butchered. They like it when you want everything, including the hide. Less clean up and disposal for them.

When feeding raw is sourced, and storage space is available, it can be cheaper, even way cheaper than even the bo-bo brands of dry food. We were given the stuff the butcher normally tosses, so add that to the per pound price for what we were paying for and it drops drastically. In the early 2000's the weighted average of the meats was like $0.25 per pound for red meats, and about the same for chicken. Most everything is eaten from a chicken. But cow bones are normally tossed. Take the trimmings in a box and the price per pound drastically falls.

It was cheaper for me than dry food. More of an inconvenience and more time consuming but those were outweighed by the benefits.

The biggest benefit is that there is no transitional issues from daily feed to keep feed when the work is ramped up. You don't have weight fluctuate a pound or two based on shitting thru screen wire on the drastic upswing from crappy food to good food.

EWO