Fellas I need a little help?

[Thunder98]

I know its mainly 2 basic bred families but how crossed is it. Frisco has1/4 bolio in him. I also see some redboy top and bottom. Would this female have a good chance of producing if she make the draft and was bred to complement her top or bottom side. She seems to have taken the mothers side of pedigrees. Reading the dog should I go with the bottom side. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=49859. All commits will be valued...

[Officially Retired]

I know its mainly 2 basic bred families but how crossed is it. Frisco has1/4 bolio in him. I also see some redboy top and bottom. Would this female have a good chance of producing if she make the draft and was bred to complement her top or bottom side. She seems to have taken the mothers side of pedigrees. Reading the dog should I go with the bottom side. http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=49859. All commits will be valued...

There is no way for anyone but you to answer this question.

I say this not to be unwilling to help, but to show that you are the captain of your own breeding decisions.

I don't know what your bitch can do, what her daddy can do, or what her mother can do.

If she took after the bottom side, is this a good thing? A bad thing? I don't know.

The reason my most people never get off the ground as breeders is because THEY ARE AIMLESS in what they do (no goals, don't know what they're breeding for, etc.).

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH?

What style does the sire have? The dam?

Is the sire, and for that matter the bitch, good enough to do a father/daughter breeding?

If the dam is good, does she have a badass brother you can breed your bitch to?

Or are they all a bunch of mediocre nothings that couldn't win?

I am not the one to be able to provide these answers, you are :idea:

STATE YOUR GOALS ... and then answer your own questions as to which dogs (her, her parents, etc.) in her pedigree live up to your goals.

Best of luck getting there,

Jack

[Officially Retired]

PS: Your mind right now has you focused on "breeding paper" ... I am trying to shift your focus to breeding for traits :idea:

ONLY YOU know the traits of your own animals ... or at least you should :-?

[Thunder98]

Much valued Jack. These are all things I have thought about, guess I needed a refreshment. Much appreciated.

[Officially Retired]

Much valued Jack. These are all things I have thought about, guess I needed a refreshment. Much appreciated.

Believe it or not, sometimes I have to ask these same questions about my own dogs :)

For example, if I send a dog to someone, and they raise it, school it, etc. ... and the dog does well, and if I later trade/buy it back ... I either have to roll the dog for myself, and/or I have to ask the person who had the dog all kinds of questions (if I trust their judgement) before I know enough about its TRAITS to be able to decide which way to breed my own dog I got back :mrgreen:

Of course, I will know the background, and will have a better idea than most "what to expect," but I still have to GET the knowledge, somehow, as to THE TRAITS of that particular animal.

I do "breed for paper," in the sense I have my own bloodline preferences (just like anyone else) ... however, I only prefer certain bloodlines based on THE TRAITS that they can be depended on to throw ... and it is my job to make sure that the individuals I am using carry those traits themselves.

They don't all have to be aces, but they DO have to do "something" EXCELLENT (air, speed, brains, desire, durability, etc.)

Some dogs are average in many things, but truly superb at one thing, while other dogs really aren't superb at anything, but they are very good at everything.

If a dog doesn't do anything excellent (or EVERYTHING at a good level) ... then it really isn't going to do much for you to carry on with it.

Jack

[Thunder98]

Make sense Jack. I got the scoop on the sire(deep game) ), dam ( smart & game). The only trait I was concerned with my pup was gameness. I like the topside because of the particular family. I'm not in it for anything but performance out of the hounds. After her evaluation I will decide what side best compliments her. I would like to go with the sire or his brother or if I could find the right butkus bred male with the traits I desire and will compliment hers. These are only plans if she works out only time will tell. I'm going to do more research on the matter at hand. Thanks Jack man you got your shit together. ..

[Officially Retired]

Make sense Jack. I got the scoop on the sire(deep game) ), dam ( smart & game). The only trait I was concerned with my pup was gameness. I like the topside because of the particular family. I'm not in it for anything but performance out of the hounds. After her evaluation I will decide what side best compliments her. I would like to go with the sire or his brother or if I could find the right butkus bred male with the traits I desire and will compliment hers. These are only plans if she works out only time will tell. I'm going to do more research on the matter at hand. Thanks Jack man you got your shit together. ..

That sounds like a decent plan.

Again, the thing to keep in mind is TRAITS ... and they do NOT all have to be "all" excellent :idea:

Another thing to keep in mind is an OPEN mind and a KEEN eye, learning to break every trait down into components.

Let me give you an example:

I got my Coca Cola (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=182) bitch as a $600 cull, because she was deemed "not match worthy." That was one man's opinion.
This man rolled Coca Cola with a Champion bitch, who totally controlled Coca Cola, who got SUPER-tired, super-fast.
Coca Cola was deemed to have "no ability" and "no air" ... but seemed VERY game.
This man was only interested in "match dogs" and had no time for "mere game dogs."

So I paid $600 to get this cull bitch on my yard.
And here is where "opinions differ" :idea:

What this guy forgot to mention is that Coca Cola was a 26 lb bitch, and the Champion he put on her was a 31 :shocked:
That means the tiny Coca Cola was SPOTTING A CHAMPION 5-LB OF WEIGHT in her "evaluation" that he "forgot to factor-in" to this equation :rolleyes:
Another thing he failed to factor-in was the fact Coca Cola drove that big bitch all over the pit and never took a backward step :-O

All this dude could see was "Coca Cola got dominated" ... but he failed to factor-in the weight ... and he failed to appreciate the fact COCA COLA WAS STILL THE STRONGER BITCH :idea:

When I got this bitch, I fed her for a month or so, and got her used to me, and then rolled her with Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=3). Missy was a 29-30 to Coca Cola's 25-26. I rolled the 2 bitches together, and had to pick up Coca Cola in :06, because Missy had fractured Coca Cola's muzzle in two places, as well as her skull between the eyes.

Although it was a rout for Missy, two things remain true:

Missy had the hardest mouth of any bitch I have ever owned; and
Coca Cola, AGAIN, was driving Missy all over the pit, never took a backward step, and actually got into Missy's guts once, trying to kill her :shocked:
So while one man may say, "Damn, that little bitch had to be rescued in only 6 minutes," another man might say, "Damn, THAT LITTLE BITCH DROVE THAT FUCKING ACE FACE DOG ALL OVER THE PIT, SAT HER DOWN AND GOT IN HER GUTS ... AND NEVER MISSED A BEAT ... EVEN WITH HER FACE FRACTURED IN 3 PLACES ... WHILE SPOTTING 4 LB OF WEIGHT."

And the thing about it is: Both statements are true :idea:

So, remember this above all else: HOW you evaluate, and WHAT YOU SEE (or fail to see) will determine the success (or failure) of your selection and breeding decisions :idea:

One man made the decision to cull Coca Cola as "unworthy" ... because (IMO) he failed to calculate some serious "intangibles" into his decision making.
Another man (me) decided Coca Cola had A+++ BODY STRENGTH ... A+++ INTENSITY ... A+++ DESIRE TO WIN/FINISH ... but needed better air and not to be so one-dimensional.

So I bred Coca Cola to Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=181), to Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2), and to her half-brother Charlie Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=228) ... in order to 1) blend the staying power of Bull with the relentless drive of Coki; (2) do the same thing with Poncho and Coki, but add brains too; and 3) to double-up on the relentless intensity of BOTH Coca Cola and her 1/2-brother Charlie Boy ... all the while staying within the family :idea:

My results?


BULL
Vise-Grip's Red Sonja (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=180): Only 1 pup came from this breeding, Red Sonja, a clone of her mama (just lighter) who was a relentless powerhouse, game to the core, and is behind some of the very best dogs (and most consistent gameness) I have ever produced in 25 years (Thunder (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=179), Screamer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=221), Razor POR (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=7687), Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=348), Jezebel (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=219));
PONCHO
Vise-Grip's Ch Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=211): the baddest dog I have ever owned in 25 years breeding dogs.
Carl Crews' Warlock, POR, ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=1678): one of the top 2 producers I have ever bred in 25 years breeding dogs.
CHARLIE BOY

Vise-Grip's Bandana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=225): One of the most intense, ferocious bitches I have ever bred, dam to Ch Vengence (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=1126) (defeater of Champions / Scratchback Cover Dog), granddam to Ch Tulipa (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=7382) (4xW, 4x BIS), as well as dam to Bananarama POR (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=35779).

Remember, all of these great dogs came out of a $600 cull "that couldn't win a match." :lol:

The moral of this little story is 1) NEVER listen to "what other people say" ... MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS ... and 2) REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO EVERYTHING ... weight, "intangibles," EVERYTHING ... so you don't jump to "fast conclusions" and thereby fail to take EVERYTHING into account.

And 3) LOOK FOR **EXCELLENCE** AT SOMETHING :idea:

Coca Cola may have had "some faults": air, structure, some abnormalities in her teeth, didn't pace herself, etc.

But she had A BODY STRENGTH, INTENSITY, and DESIRE TO FINISH that was OUT OF THIS WORLD ... and I bred her 3x ... to supplement her weaknesses twice (to Bull and to Poncho) as well as to preserve and maximize her strengths once (to Charlie Boy).

And the results speak for themselves ... all from a "cull" that "someone else" didn't think was worth his time :lol:

I hope this longwinded tirade gets you TO THINK ...

Don't make excuses, true.
Don't over-exaggerate and "see things" that AREN'T there ...
But also, don't overlook truly great traits, that really are there, but are being hidden (either through weight disparity, other weaknesses, etc.).

Hope this all made sense :D

Jack

[Thunder98]

Very well spoken Jack. I appreciated the post. A very interesting read. Another mans junk is another mans treasure, in your case platinum. I've heard good thing about your dogs. There's a certain trait I hear they are known for that I must have. There's also another little dog I've heard of CSK's Lil Jake sire by Ice man. You ever heard of him. Man thanks for the time spent, a good schooling for me as well. Lol. On a serious note I will be honest with myself and dogs and take the good with the bad and consider all variables before moving forward. Thanks again

[Officially Retired]

I have heard of Lil Jake (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=22872), yes, as well as the fabulous Iceman (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=22661).

Glad you enjoyed the rant; hope some of it resonated with you ...

[Doc Ellis]

Cool read Jack!

[Officially Retired]

Cool read Jack!

:)

[Thunder98]

Most definitely a great read Jack. Gives a man plenty to think about. Glad I subscribed.

[Officially Retired]

:D

[ceasar]

That sounds like a decent plan.

Again, the thing to keep in mind is TRAITS ... and they do NOT all have to be "all" excellent :idea:

Another thing to keep in mind is an OPEN mind and a KEEN eye, learning to break every trait down into components.

Let me give you an example:

I got my Coca Cola (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=182) bitch as a $600 cull, because she was deemed "not match worthy." That was one man's opinion.
This man rolled Coca Cola with a Champion bitch, who totally controlled Coca Cola, who got SUPER-tired, super-fast.
Coca Cola was deemed to have "no ability" and "no air" ... but seemed VERY game.
This man was only interested in "match dogs" and had no time for "mere game dogs."

So I paid $600 to get this cull bitch on my yard.
And here is where "opinions differ" :idea:

What this guy forgot to mention is that Coca Cola was a 26 lb bitch, and the Champion he put on her was a 31 :shocked:
That means the tiny Coca Cola was SPOTTING A CHAMPION 5-LB OF WEIGHT in her "evaluation" that he "forgot to factor-in" to this equation :rolleyes:
Another thing he failed to factor-in was the fact Coca Cola drove that big bitch all over the pit and never took a backward step :-O

All this dude could see was "Coca Cola got dominated" ... but he failed to factor-in the weight ... and he failed to appreciate the fact COCA COLA WAS STILL THE STRONGER BITCH :idea:

When I got this bitch, I fed her for a month or so, and got her used to me, and then rolled her with Missy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=3). Missy was a 29-30 to Coca Cola's 25-26. I rolled the 2 bitches together, and had to pick up Coca Cola in :06, because Missy had fractured Coca Cola's muzzle in two places, as well as her skull between the eyes.

Although it was a rout for Missy, two things remain true:

Missy had the hardest mouth of any bitch I have ever owned; and
Coca Cola, AGAIN, was driving Missy all over the pit, never took a backward step, and actually got into Missy's guts once, trying to kill her :shocked:
So while one man may say, "Damn, that little bitch had to be rescued in only 6 minutes," another man might say, "Damn, THAT LITTLE BITCH DROVE THAT FUCKING ACE FACE DOG ALL OVER THE PIT, SAT HER DOWN AND GOT IN HER GUTS ... AND NEVER MISSED A BEAT ... EVEN WITH HER FACE FRACTURED IN 3 PLACES ... WHILE SPOTTING 4 LB OF WEIGHT."

And the thing about it is: Both statements are true :idea:

So, remember this above all else: HOW you evaluate, and WHAT YOU SEE (or fail to see) will determine the success (or failure) of your selection and breeding decisions :idea:

One man made the decision to cull Coca Cola as "unworthy" ... because (IMO) he failed to calculate some serious "intangibles" into his decision making.
Another man (me) decided Coca Cola had A+++ BODY STRENGTH ... A+++ INTENSITY ... A+++ DESIRE TO WIN/FINISH ... but needed better air and not to be so one-dimensional.

So I bred Coca Cola to Bull (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=181), to Poncho (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=2), and to her half-brother Charlie Boy (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=228) ... in order to 1) blend the staying power of Bull with the relentless drive of Coki; (2) do the same thing with Poncho and Coki, but add brains too; and 3) to double-up on the relentless intensity of BOTH Coca Cola and her 1/2-brother Charlie Boy ... all the while staying within the family :idea:

My results?


BULL
Vise-Grip's Red Sonja (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=180): Only 1 pup came from this breeding, Red Sonja, a clone of her mama (just lighter) who was a relentless powerhouse, game to the core, and is behind some of the very best dogs (and most consistent gameness) I have ever produced in 25 years (Thunder (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=179), Screamer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=221), Razor POR (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=7687), Duke Nukem (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=348), Jezebel (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=219));
PONCHO
Vise-Grip's Ch Stormbringer (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=211): the baddest dog I have ever owned in 25 years breeding dogs.
Carl Crews' Warlock, POR, ROM (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=1678): one of the top 2 producers I have ever bred in 25 years breeding dogs.
CHARLIE BOY

Vise-Grip's Bandana (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=225): One of the most intense, ferocious bitches I have ever bred, dam to Ch Vengence (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=1126) (defeater of Champions / Scratchback Cover Dog), granddam to Ch Tulipa (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=7382) (4xW, 4x BIS), as well as dam to Bananarama POR (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=35779).

Remember, all of these great dogs came out of a $600 cull "that couldn't win a match." :lol:

The moral of this little story is 1) NEVER listen to "what other people say" ... MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS ... and 2) REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO EVERYTHING ... weight, "intangibles," EVERYTHING ... so you don't jump to "fast conclusions" and thereby fail to take EVERYTHING into account.

And 3) LOOK FOR **EXCELLENCE** AT SOMETHING :idea:

Coca Cola may have had "some faults": air, structure, some abnormalities in her teeth, didn't pace herself, etc.

But she had A BODY STRENGTH, INTENSITY, and DESIRE TO FINISH that was OUT OF THIS WORLD ... and I bred her 3x ... to supplement her weaknesses twice (to Bull and to Poncho) as well as to preserve and maximize her strengths once (to Charlie Boy).

And the results speak for themselves ... all from a "cull" that "someone else" didn't think was worth his time :lol:

I hope this longwinded tirade gets you TO THINK ...

Don't make excuses, true.
Don't over-exaggerate and "see things" that AREN'T there ...
But also, don't overlook truly great traits, that really are there, but are being hidden (either through weight disparity, other weaknesses, etc.).

Hope this all made sense :D

Jack

This is one of the best post, I have seen on any forum in a very long time.
very insightful,well worth the $30 bucks to join.
should be common sense, but sometime you can get caught up in the action, and miss the little things.

[CYJ]

This is a old thread. Would like too IMHO give my thoughts. First I whole heartily agree with Ca. Jack. His insight is very to the point. What I wish to bring out is using the information put in the 14 generation search engine on your dog's pedigree. See what dog pops up predominate in the third generation. Look at the predominate over all dog with the highest numbers. That all these dogs were bred down from.

This female dog of yours shows a strong Bolio influence. Bolio comes up in the third generation listing at 25.5% influence. All of the main dogs in the overall pedigree were bred down from Tudor's Dibo 1026 times at 9.8%.

Now this added pedigree feature could be used to help breed dogs with more pretty pedigree papers. This is not what Ca Jack designed this search engine feature to be used for. Use CA Jack's wisdom of finding a deep game well built dog with a known strong Bolio influence. The stud dog you decide to bred to if your bitch checks out. Should have the traits you wish to have and hopefully same traits as your bitch dog.

Bolio was a famous and devastating head dog. I would only bred from Bolio dogs that have those same strong traits along with all the other traits mentioned by Jack.

With all that Ca Jack has said and my opinions. Keeping a family of game dogs intact. Is a long,lonely, drawn out road to walk down. The Factors that will always work against you is Father Time,enough money when needed, and Murphy's Law. Cheers

[Thunder98]

Thanks for the advice CYJ...