((( BEST TO BEST OF THE CENTURY )))

[Officially Retired]

There was talk about the ability to "clone" or store semen earlier ... well, imagine if we could preserve eggs :exclamation:

Can you imagine the kind of a bloodline that could be developed, if several of Tornado's eggs could have been salvaged?


BREEDING OF THE CENTURY (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=11369&dam_id=9349)

IMO, these are the two greatest dogs of the century. They could kill you early or break you down over time. They had ZERO weaknesses.

Both are without peer, as far as historical accomplishments go.

Neither will likely have a successor in any of our lifetimes, and that is sad ... because it's ALL DOWNHILL from where they are :crying:

Well, can you imagine, if the technology were available, the kind of a linebreeding program that could be established from this outcross?

Maybe the litter would be phenomenal, maybe there would be mixed results, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER :idea:

The Point is, Titere can still produce, and IF we were able to harvest the eggs from a bitch like Tornado, we could breed THE BEST son of Titere back to her (and THE BEST daughter of the matings back to Titere), whenever we wanted.

With the appropriate selection, and the availability of more eggs, when science gets to this point, it will be a phenomenal leap for the modern dogman.

Just thinking out loud ...

Jack

[Bingo]

There was talk about the ability to "clone" or store semen earlier ... well, imagine if we could preserve eggs :exclamation:

Can you imagine the kind of a bloodline that could be developed, if several of Tornado's eggs could have been salvaged?
BREEDING OF THE CENTURY (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=11369&dam_id=9349)

IMO, these are the two greatest dogs of the century. They could kill you early or break you down over time. They had ZERO weaknesses.

Both are without peer, as far as historical accomplishments go.

Neither will likely have a successor in any of our lifetimes, and that is sad ... because it's ALL DOWNHILL from where they are :crying:

Well, can you imagine, if the technology were available, the kind of a linebreeding program that could be established from this outcross?

Maybe the litter would be phenomenal, maybe there would be mixed results, IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER :idea:

The Point is, Titere can still produce, and IF we were able to harvest the eggs from a bitch like Tornado, we could breed THE BEST son of Titere back to her (and THE BEST daughter of the matings back to Titere), whenever we wanted.

With the appropriate selection, and the availability of more eggs, when science gets to this point, it will be a phenomenal leap for the modern dogman.

Just thinking out loud ...

JackI dont think either is best of the century. Titere is phenomenal from every first hand account I have heard but not one person I have talked too says he is even the best they have ever seen much less the best of the century. I would also take Shady Lady, Molly bee, or Queen over Tornado but you are right that storing eggs would change the game.

[Officially Retired]

I dont think either is best of the century. Titere is phenomenal from every first hand account I have heard but not one person I have talked too says he is even the best they have ever seen much less the best of the century.

Sometimes the hardest dogs to beat are those that aren't "awesome" at anything, just VERY strong at everything.

DBL Gr Ch Melonhead was such a dog also ... I knew a guy who took Melonhead 2:40 ... said his 8xW dog fought a perfect fight, did NOTHING wrong, died DEAD game ... but Melonhead fought a beyond perfect fight.

Nothing "devastating" ... just freaking flawless, insanely tough/rugged, understood his job, beat you to the punch, and could go forever ...

Marvin Hagler was like that ... beat EVERY devastating puncher he faced (Hearns/Mugabi/etc.) ... he was too tough to lose.




I would also take Shady Lady, Molly bee, or Queen over Tornado but you are right that storing eggs would change the game.

When I lived in Nashville, TN, I knew several people who lived next door to both Shady Lady and Tornado, and saw most of their matches.
(Ran with Ken Allen / knew and matched into Ricky Jones, several times in fact.)

Shady is never mentioned in their "best" conversations ... but Tornado always is.

I can see an argument for The Queen and for Molly ... but I still don't think either of these great bitches will be anything other than footnotes *under* Tornado's position, at the top, historically.

Now, if I were going to make a fantasy breeding with Molly, it would be this (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=515&dam_id=6117).

And, if I were going to make a fantasy breeding with The Queen, it would be this (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=4&dam_id=1919).

Jack

PS: One of these days, the ability to harvest/save eggs will be perfected ...

[bolero]

so many people say queen over tornado, but the facts are tornado is more accomplished. this is a matter of historical record. she won ten againt the best dogmen of that time and queen only won eight

[arsuffi@att.net]

Jack that breeding you state MollyxZebo was done maybe? When I lost to Lonnie Woodberry when I was 19 or 20 first match I was in and first match I ever seen. I was the man or boy O. Stevens talks about in his interview on this site about somebody getting his dog killed in 30 mins. That dog showed so game dead game Mr. Woodberry seen how I responded in the [] took me aside and told me to come and visit him for some advice. During my many times going to his home he would always try to get me to buy some dogs from Mr. Edwards from the N.C. I would always laugh and say I like the dogs I have but one time he pulled out papers on GR.CH.Mickey's litter and said how do you think this litter is bred one was adba the other was hand written from Mr. Edwards it stated they were out of Zebo x Molly Bee so who knows if this is true I really have never talk about this a lot but I seen both sire and dam of that litter and personally never thought they were out of them. If anyone from this time and area has any input on this please add to this post. Yours in the game Johnny

[Chase1]

No disrespect to Tornado, but Lady Stone would have dethrowned Tornado.
Nice breeding though.

[Officially Retired]

No disrespect to Tornado, but Lady Stone would have dethrowned Tornado.
Nice breeding though.

You say this as if it is (pardon the pun) etched in stone ...

What makes you think Lady Stone had a snowball's chance against THE winningest bitch in bulldog history?

How many dogs did Lady Stone kill, (ahem) stone dead, without getting touched in return?

List her resume ...

Thanks,

Jack

[Nut]

Its dumb speculating which dog was better.

Yes it would be nice, as allot of IF's :mrgreen:

[Officially Retired]

Its dumb speculating which dog was better.

Yes it would be nice, as allot of IF's :mrgreen:

Ultimately, I agree, there's no way to win a debate on who would prevail if any two dogs met.

However, it generates interesting discussion/observation, if the people involved can cite tangible reasons to back up their beliefs.

My thoughts are simply this: Very, very few dogs make it passed 3 fights.

The jump between 3 and 4xW is huge ... and the chasm between 4xW and 5xW creates more fallout still.

Most people stop at 5xW, IF they get a dog that far, and hang it up.

Going from 5x to 6x, and 6x to 7x, is almost unheard of, with the % fallout being greater still.

Therefore, to compare "the quality" a bitch who only won 4 (which is a relatively easy thing to do) ... to a bitch who won 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 matches ... the only bitch in history ever to be able to do this ... is just preposterous to me.

Tornado was a BEAST ... she was smart, game, tough as nails, could kill you in :12 ... or out-scratch you at 2:40 ... she NEVER got bit down ... not even close ... despite facing world class competition 10x in a row.

Tornado is the one who BIT everything down, 10x in a row.

A mere 4xW is ridiculously unproven compared to Tornado.

IMO, if you took a PRIME Tornado, say after her 3rd fight, I would bet on her to defeat any bitch who ever fought her weight.

As would most of the people who lost to her ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

No disrespect to Tornado, but Lady Stone would have dethrowned Tornado.
Nice breeding though.


Curious if you were joking ... or if were you speaking of another Lady Stone?

Because, in checking out the records, Rastaman's Ch Lady Stone (4xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=51351) was one of the bitches Gr Ch Tornado killed ...

Interestingly, Ch Lady Stone, who was killed by Tornado, was a Loposay/Zebo cross like Molly Bee (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=6117) ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

http://youtu.be/uLP6iiVpdi0

[sinister]

Curious if you were joking ... or if were you speaking of another Lady Stone?

Because, in checking out the records, Rastaman's Ch Lady Stone (4xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=51351) was one of the bitches Gr Ch Tornado killed ...

Interestingly, Ch Lady Stone, who was killed by Tornado, was a Loposay/Zebo cross like Molly Bee (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=6117) ...

Jack

i don't think that's true. don't believe ladystone and tornado ever met.

[ragedog10]

They never met. Ladystone lost after beat Havana Boys Blondie. Tornado vs Ladystone didn't happen forget the reason.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for the correction.

Here are Tornado's opponents, based on Ken Allen's article in the AGDTimes:


1. STP's Piggy (?xW)
2. D. Farve & JJ Hayward's ? ?xW
3. Bobby Hall's Sunshine (2xW)
4. Tant & Co.'s Black Cat (?xW)
5. Chicago Combine's ? ?xW
6. Rebel Kennels' Emma (?xW)
7, Tito & The Local Boys' ? ?xW
8. T. Garner & Raheem's ? ?xW
9. Rastaman & Boone's Sadie (?xW)
10. Shobinoe's ? ?xW

Does anyone have more detailed knowledge to fill in the blanks?

Jack

[CrazyRed]

They never met. Ladystone lost after beat Havana Boys Blondie. Tornado vs Ladystone didn't happen forget the reason.

Ladystone never lost, she was suppose to go into Tornado but the show never took place. members of the gang is still around

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for the feedback.

This was posted on PedsOnline back in 2003: Ch Lady Stone (4xW, 1xL) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=39545)

Here is a rendition on her: http://www.sporting-dog-news.com/ch-rastamans-lady-stone (http://grandchamp.co.za/2014/12/rastamans-ch-lady-stone.html).

It shows the 1xL also, but gives no mention of loss.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

I have corrected my mistake in her pedigree, and added 2 photos: Rastaman's Ch Ladystone (4xW) (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_dogs_profile.php?dog_id=51351)

[CrazyRed]

This is what I gathered, I will check once I get home

1. STP's Piggy was a 2xw
3. Bobby Hall's Sunshine (2xW)
4. Tant & Co.'s Black Cat was 2xw
5. Chicago Combine's had a 1x from what I was just told
6. Rebel Kennels' Emma was 1x
7, Tito & The Local Boys' (1x from what I was just told by Danny)
8. T. Garner & Raheem's was a first time out, waiting on confirmation
9. Rastaman & Boone's Sadie was 2xw
10. Shobinoe's 0xw

[CrazyRed]

Thanks for the feedback.

This was posted on PedsOnline back in 2003: Ch Lady Stone (4xW, 1xL) (http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=39545)

Here is a rendition on her: http://www.sporting-dog-news.com/ch-rastamans-lady-stone (http://grandchamp.co.za/2014/12/rastamans-ch-lady-stone.html).

It shows the 1xL also, but gives no mention of loss.

Jack

Folks had confused LadyStone with Sadie because Boone was trying to get that setup but under belief that Ricky was part of A-team, he was told he had to beat Blondie first, who was also trying to dance with Tornado. Boone ended up doing so only to find out that Ricky was no partner of A-team. Boone & Rasta dog Sadie lost to Tornado on bet that Sadie wouldn't last 45mins, Sadie did make it 45 mins but lost the show as she was picked up after a game showing. She got sold to another dogman after losing to Tornado. Sadie was good dog but just not as strong and couldn't bite as hard as Tornado, she made best choice that day swapping it out instead of being slick.

[Chase1]

I have a question? If Tornado never beat a CH. How did she make GR CH? Just judging from the records you posted.

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for the info, CrazyRed.

Chase1, a dog does not have to beat a Champion to become a Grand Champion.

There used to be no standards in the Journal in the early 90s.

Then, it was said you only got credit for beating "recognized kennels."

You also had to beat "winning dogs" (not Champions, just proven winners) to become a Champion.

Tornado stopped three 2xWs from becoming Champion, to win her own Championship ... and she stopped four 2xWs total from becoming Champion ... and faced some of the most recognized dogmen in history.

However, she certainly didn't have as good a resume (dog-wise) as Robert T, Titere, The Queen, or other great multi-dog Grand Champions (dog-wise) ... but (people-wise) she faced as good as it gets.

Jack

[Chase1]

When i spoken to a few old timers. They had said that Ken Allen was scared that Rastaman's Lady Stone would have tarnished Tornados accomplishments. Thats why "they" (The Fraternity) told Boone that he had to go through Blondie to get to Tornado. Take in mind i think Tornado is a amazing bitch. Any bulldog that was conditioned and campained 10 times is a beast!

[Chase1]

Thanks for the info, CrazyRed.

Chase1, a dog does not have to beat a Champion to become a Grand Champion.

There used to be no standards in the Journal in the early 90s.

Then, it was said you only got credit for beating "recognized kennels."

You also had to beat "winning dogs" (not Champions, just proven winners) to become a Champion.

Tornado stopped three 2xWs from becoming Champion, to win her own Championship ... and she stopped four 2xWs total from becoming Champion ... and faced some of the most recognized dogmen in history.

However, she certainly didn't have as good a resume (dog-wise) as Robert T, Titere, The Queen, or other great multi-dog Grand Champions (dog-wise) ... but (people-wise) she faced as good as it gets.

Jack

Thanks for the info.

[Officially Retired]

When i spoken to a few old timers. They had said that Ken Allen was scared that Rastaman's Lady Stone would have tarnished Tornados accomplishments. Thats why "they" (The Fraternity) told Boone that he had to go through Blondie to get to Tornado. Take in mind i think Tornado is a amazing bitch. Any bulldog that was conditioned and campained 10 times is a beast!

There are always going to be "She couldda beat her," comparisons.

Ladystone sounds like a really good dog ... so thanks for making me do some research on her :)

Judging by Tornado's adversaries, (STP, Tant, Bobby Hall, Rebel, Rastaman/Boone, etc.), I don't buy the notion that Ken was "scared" of top competition ...

There are many reasons to make/not make a match, including weight, purse, etc.

A dog can only face so many other dogs, and Tornado faced more "other dogs" than any bitch in history, including Ladystone.

Ladystone may have had Tornado's number, but in reading her accounts it seems like she almost got bit down by Ch Blondie in the first :40. (Makes you wonder if she could have ever recovered, had that been Tornado on her :-?)

Sounds like Blondie was a serious, fast, smart, and game bitch ... which is my kinda dog, so it probably would have gone awhile, regardless of who won.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Thanks for the info.

Thanks for making me research a fine bitch I was not aware of ...

[ragedog10]

Ladystone did lose Rastaman gave a interview in the Sdj not long and talks about the loss. As for Tornado she won 10x's that is damn near impossible to do, I don't believe her owner was scared of any with her. I'll look a get the info on who Lady lost to.

[Officially Retired]

Ladystone did lose Rastaman gave a interview in the Sdj not long and talks about the loss. As for Tornado she won 10x's that is damn near impossible to do, I don't believe her owner was scared of any with her. I'll look a get the info on who Lady lost to.


7. Tito & the Local Boys' Blondie. She was either a 1xw or first time out. That deal was put together in order for the Local Boys to get either Robert T Sr or Sampson. I dont remember. Blondie was from Eli/Carver breeding.


Thanks to both of you.

[CrazyRed]

I have a question? If Tornado never beat a CH. How did she make GR CH? Just judging from the records you posted. No she never beat any CHs or GrChs but that was not the journal rules. It never became the rule, but it was AGDT that stated they would only give out the GrCh certificate if a dog had beat a SDJ or AGDT registered champion.

[CrazyRed]

Ladystone did lose Rastaman gave a interview in the Sdj not long and talks about the loss. As for Tornado she won 10x's that is damn near impossible to do, I don't believe her owner was scared of any with her. I'll look a get the info on who Lady lost to.

Not sure what interview it was but I spoke with Boone, Lady Stone never lost. She also was a 1xw when he got her, she was already matched by the guy he got her from, she won over another local dog when it was some neighborhood beef.. in total Lady was a 5x but if you know Lady owner he was a prideful man and didn't count it and went out to win 4 with her. She would of stayed a Ch but while he was breeding her, another champion started making a name and was gone be the one who got Tornado up next. Well they didn't take kindly to that because they couldn't set an agreement on Tornado v Ladystone show, so he denied Tornado her chance to whip on a champion as he took Lady Stone and she stopped that Ch in 1:44

[ragedog10]

It was in a recent Sdj earlier this year, I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure she did lose.

[Chase1]

Great post Crazy Red. CA Jack it's been a pleasure to enjoy a great conversation about these two old warriors.

[ragedog10]

Just re read the interview and there was no mention of Ladystone losing. Now I swear I saw she lost some damn where or maybe I'm wrong and thinking of another dog.

[Officially Retired]

Great post Crazy Red. CA Jack it's been a pleasure to enjoy a great conversation about these two old warriors.

I agree, thank you too. Also, back to the original topic, if I were going to buy a pup from any of the breedings mentions it would be from Ch Hammer x Queen of Hearts (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=4&dam_id=1919).

They are bred so much alike, it is not even funny. (Even more interestingly, if Hammer and Bobby Jr. were both really off of Reuben.)

The Queen is known for mouth and Ch Hammer is known for extreme gameness ... yet The Queen threw DG 2/3-hr dogs and Ch Hammer threw some devastating, muzzle-breaking face dogs (as well as very game dogs).

Zebo x Molly Bee (http://www.thepitbullbible.com/forum/bulldog_breedings_test.php?sire_id=515&dam_id=6117) would be a fun breeding to own, but I would bet on the percentages and longevity of the Hammer x Queen breeding myself.

Jack

[Officially Retired]

Now I swear I saw she lost some damn where or maybe I'm wrong and thinking of another dog.

This happens alot with age :lol:

[ragedog10]

Lol you got that right. I read and look at so many different things sometimes it turns into mush in my head.

[Easy]

I've always been curious as to why Ken Allen didn't accept the challenge from J.A with The Queen. Anybody?

[Officially Retired]

I've always been curious as to why Ken Allen didn't accept the challenge from J.A with The Queen. Anybody?

I never bought into the idea Ken "wouldn't fight" The Queen, or even that the fight was seriously considered.

At equal weight, Tornado vs. The Queen would have been the single, greatest female matchup in the history of the sport.

However, with The Queen being a 38, and Tornado being a 43, it would have been the single greatest slaughter in the history of the sport.

It is simply a joke to think that anyone seriously tried to spot the winningest bitch in history 5 lb of weight :rolleyes:

Jack

[Nut]

Ha when people have a good dog, they always challenging champions outside they're weight category. I come down 1 lbs you come one up. And even funnier, I come one up, you come one down.


Guess it another one of those story's.

[Officially Retired]

Ha when people have a good dog, they always challenging champions outside they're weight category. I come down 1 lbs you come one up. And even funnier, I come one up, you come one down.
Guess it another one of those story's.

That is exactly what I was thinking, Nut.

Except, in this case, it was probably, "I will come up from 38 to 40, if you come down from 43 to 40." :rolleyes:

And, when Ken said, "Kiss my ass," J.A. then tells everyone, "Ken refused to meet The Queen." :rolleyes:

:lol:

[CrazyRed]

The show was going to be at 42 or 43 and Queen wasn't going to spot Tornado no weight. She was naturally a much bigger dog than 38-39 that she was being shown at but through methods was able to get down to 39 which was a strain but she would of been going to Tornado.. Ed & KA were friends, so make no mistake about it, it wasn't about fear it was mutual respect between the two. Many thought Ch Lou was going to go up in weight after beating Queen because she was being hyped as the greatest dog around, but that didn't get to be. Not to mention a dog going from 40-42 with Queen ability, smarts, strength and punch wouldn't of been hard for her plus would of let her actually fill out more and be worked at a better weight. When he moved her up he said that she was a much better dog when he started working her and showing her at 42 then she was at 39 because he thought her making the weight was good but might of been handicapping her all that time. In fact Ed wanted to move her up before but all the willing CHs or dogs going for Ch or GrCh were down 39-40 weight class where she stayed to get wins.. Many look at her times and think she was just a barnstormer with punch but she was very strong, athletic dog in there and Ed said one of the smartest dogs he seen inside as she just fast but you could see her planning her moves.. Also her times are exaggerated a little bit, as time was added on, that CH Lou show was over in 9 mins. Also if you ever spoke with Ed he would tell you that he has nothing but respect and admiration for Tornado, the only reason he wanted her was to prove his bitch belonged amongst the elite because Tornado was the best. He said Tornado hands down the best ever because she got the most that count and she had camp behind her to support it. He just felt in a showdown, Queen had enough meat left on her tires and ability to get to Tornado and make it interesting but he never disrespected Tornado or said that Queen would just destroy Tornado. He said when him and KA talked about it, they agreed it would either be over quick or they would both be lost afterwards. So they never made it public or a big thing because 2 good friends with possibly 2 of the best females to ever win a show, why make it a war.

[Officially Retired]

The show was going to be at 42 or 43 and Queen wasn't going to spot Tornado no weight. She was naturally a much bigger dog than 38-39 that she was being shown at but through methods was able to get down to 39 which was a strain but she would of been going to Tornado.. Ed & KA were friends, so make no mistake about it, it wasn't about fear it was mutual respect between the two. Many thought Ch Lou was going to go up in weight after beating Queen because she was being hyped as the greatest dog around, but that didn't get to be. Not to mention a dog going from 40-42 with Queen ability, smarts, strength and punch wouldn't of been hard for her plus would of let her actually fill out more and be worked at a better weight. When he moved her up he said that she was a much better dog when he started working her and showing her at 42 then she was at 39 because he thought her making the weight was good but might of been handicapping her all that time. In fact Ed wanted to move her up before but all the willing CHs or dogs going for Ch or GrCh were down 39-40 weight class where she stayed to get wins.. Many look at her times and think she was just a barnstormer with punch but she was very strong, athletic dog in there and Ed said one of the smartest dogs he seen inside as she just fast but you could see her planning her moves.. Also her times are exaggerated a little bit, as time was added on, that CH Lou show was over in 9 mins. Also if you ever spoke with Ed he would tell you that he has nothing but respect and admiration for Tornado, the only reason he wanted her was to prove his bitch belonged amongst the elite because Tornado was the best. He said Tornado hands down the best ever because she got the most that count and she had camp behind her to support it. He just felt in a showdown, Queen had enough meat left on her tires and ability to get to Tornado and make it interesting but he never disrespected Tornado or said that Queen would just destroy Tornado. He said when him and KA talked about it, they agreed it would either be over quick or they would both be lost afterwards. So they never made it public or a big thing because 2 good friends with possibly 2 of the best females to ever win a show, why make it a war.

Fabulous write-up and clarification, thank you.