sister vs. sister/brother vs.brother

[Johngilpat]

First post on here yall don't be to violent. But what's the history on this subject. Just curious!

[CYJ]

First, both male and female dogs should be excellent built specimens. No bad faults like under shot or over bite jaws/fiddle front end/cow hocked/ not having a good deep breathing chest capacity and so on. This should always be taken into consideration even when line breeding. Sadly as I tell you this, very few really know what a excellent looking functional pit dog looks like. One excellent built dog that comes to my mind would have been Weldon's Jimmy Boots.

Some of the dogs that California Jack bred up were nice looking dogs. When you got 32 to 35 pound dogs that look big as a 42 to 45 pound dog. You doing something right. One has to strive to breed big bone dogs to weight ratio, when brought down to show weight. All things equal the bigger boned/longer neck/ ranger dog will win every time. Especially in hot weather.

I had very little success with brother/sister breeding. Maurice Carver's thoughts on this subject was that; you double your goodness and triple your junk. He was 100% right on. Most of the brother/Sister breeding I made produced a bunch of nut cases. Dogs were well built, some showed to be very game and rough but all their teeth would be gone by the time the dogs were old enough to show.

My biggest mistake with my last breeding's was not using my Young's Winchester dog first over all my brood bitches. Instead I used my Young's Jake dog, the Zetterquest brother's Crazy Critter dog. Now this was not brother'sister breeding's, but was heavy on the Eli- Bully Son dog etc. Results huge dogs to big for my liking. Some of those last dogs weighed 65 to 85 pounds on the chain. Another stud dog that produced really big dogs was the Jim William's Paladin dog. The Hammond's line usually produced big catch weight dogs also.

Starting to get off subject. I feel IMHO that a Brother/Sister breeding is to be done when a great blood line is about gone or to be lost. Usually you have to weed out the triple junk and the next breeding add a good line bred dog back in to keep bad faults from cropping up and maintain hybrid vigor.

IMHO the best way to breed dogs is when you make that magical clink that produces an all litter of very good to great dogs. You keep that stud dog and bitch dog in tip top health. Breed them till the well runs dry. Why waste feeding and caring for dogs of probably less quality. If you are seeking very good to great show dogs. You have the right recipe staring you in the face. Why go breeding your bitch to this are that.

Talked to a few young dog men over the last few years that have lucked up and made some really good breeding's that gave them the dogs they were very happy with. I asked them how many breeding's off those dogs they got to make. Usually just that one breeding and that good bitch dog or stud lost from a kennel fight etc. Or they were off to the latest fad or latest Super dog on the market. I have done the same myself. LOL Unless one plans to peddle dogs keeping to many different bloodlines will overtime prove unfruitful and wear a one man dog operation out in mind/body/spirit and last much wasted money. IMHO Cheers

[BIGC]

Almost seems he might be talking show wise.

[Johngilpat]

Great read CYJ, thank you for the info.

[Nut]

Is this question about breeding or roling?

[Johngilpat]

The question was about showing.

[Nut]

Thats what I thought. CYJ didn't get the question right, great response though.

Would never match into a littermate. Don't know why anyone would want that. Rolling is a different matter.

[FrostyPaws]

I personally can't think of any history of that happening. I certainly can't say it hasn't, given the thousands of matches over 100+ years, but I've never heard of it or read of it either, for that matter.

[Buckgator]

CJY made a better point I think for CJY identified what characteristics made a good dog and what you didn't want in them. Maybe a new post coming up with a list of traits you want in a good bulldog and traits you would like to get ride of. I don't see much advice or info on what crops up and how one goes about breeding them out. I think whether show dog or not what works for the goose with all being equal works for the gander. Race horses look good and have what it takes to finish I don't think this is coincidence. I realize looking up how things are inherited can be tedious and confusing but don't we owe it to the breed/improve it?

[CYJ]

Ditto, I believe deep gameness is a first priority. Still you have to have a proper put together dog for it to be able to take a proper conditioning keep. To perform at it's best in a get down show and go event. Get my drift. LOL

One of the best books you will ever read on how to properly breed any certain type of dogs, If still in print. Was written by a well known German dog breeder.
This German dog man was one of the top of the line German Shepard's breeders bare none. I learned about this book from V. Jackson, who got his info from Mr. Lonzo Pratt. Mr. Pratt breed some excellent German Shepard's before he later started breeding his line of Pit Bull Terriers.

This German Dog breeder started out with the very best German Shepard stock available and with proper line breeding etc. The dogs generations down from the original stock looked like clone replica's of the original dogs he started out with. This man's dogs were not bred to just look at and win dog shows and ribbons. But performed very well in those dogs trials that the Germans do over there with the big German Shepard's/ Rottweilers and Dobermans.

IMHO, I still feel a brother/Sister breeding should only be done if say a good line of Carver/Colby/Tudor or any well know blood line today is soon to be lost forever. The dogs to be used should be proper built and healthy dogs. If either are high strung and not calm solid acting dogs. One will most likely get a bunch of root chewing/chain chewing/house chewing nut cases. Any freak built dogs back in the ancestry, will probably crop up. Now you can still get the same thing with line breeding etc. But you can probably count on that double your goodness and triple your junk factor that Maurice Carver spoke of.

One other thing to add. My Young's Chuck dog bred by Creel was a brother/sister breeding. Chuck was a very intelligent, calm, and solid/strong built pit dog. Scotty checked Chuck's oil in a get down and go dog show before being used as a stud dog. Chuck was around 5 years old at that time.This factor was helpful before using Chuck as a stud dog. Do not know how all chuck's siblings turned out. Over time heard good things about Mr. Creels dogs and did get to talk with him about my Chuck dog. Cheers

[Buckgator]

CYJ,

Could I ask you for the title of that book I really would like to read it.

[Johngilpat]

Thanks for all the input guys its very appreciated.

[BRICKFACE]

Wow very good reads CYJ!

[SGC]

One of the best books you will ever read on how to properly breed any certain type of dogs, If still in print. Was written by a well known German dog breeder.
This German dog man was one of the top of the line German Shepard's breeders bar none. I learned about this book from V. Jackson, who got his info from Mr. Lonzo Pratt. Mr. Pratt breed some excellent German Shepard's before he later started breeding his line of Pit Bull Terriers.


Great posts CYJ, thank you for sharing your knowledge again. I always enjoy your posts.

I would also be interested in the German Shepherd book if you remember the title.

Having had GSD years ago and also having collected old dog books for many years, I am thinking it might be this book?

"The German Shepherd in Word and Picture" by Max Von Stephanitz written in about 1925?

Amazon link to the 2009 reprint in English at about $43 --

http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Shepherd-Word-Picture/dp/144465554X/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41cbrHZYilL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR104%2C160_&refRID=0R4DVYYAJDBKJ1JFX5YG

The older 1994 reprint can sell for up to $500 (and you can buy an original 1925 edition for that...)

http://www.amazon.com/The-German-Shepherd-Word-Picture/dp/9993280054/ref=pd_sim_sbs_14_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=41vdSRdd0eL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR107%2C160_&refRID=1WSHV67AXCSF998CKHR8

It is a huge book, and it has been many years since I looked at my own copy.

But maybe you mean another book?

[gotap_d]

I dont see anything wrong with going into a dog and using its littermate. I cant think of any situations where it has happened but i'm sure it has. Bullyson went into his own son. Match weights not names... unless its a big time name. Just my 2 cents.

[Johngilpat]

The Bullyson match was my reasoning for this question. I was interested to learn if the same situation has happened with littermates.

[Buckgator]

Thanks SGC, will give it a looksie!

[CYJ]

Wow fellows my senior moments and bad eye sight, have caught up with me. Thought the subject was about breeding a brother/Sister breeding. Wish I could put that info. over in the breeding section.

IMHO,If a all great litter of dogs have been bred up and the dog men intentionally show them into one another. There is very little in the end to be gained. These type of dog shows result in the lose of two great dogs. One or both could have been better producers than the rest of the siblings. No way of really knowing. It is even a bad idea to school your own young dogs into each other on your own yard. Best to use a young dog from another dog yard.

I never saw any of this done in my day unless it was a grudge match. One of the dog man was jealous over the other dog man's sibling dog or bitch. Over all the event never went well,usually causing just more hard feelings.

Even though it was not a brother/sister into each other. When Mr. Chavis sent Boone a dog of his to purposefully beat Powell's Termite. Thought that was sort of tacky and trying to cut off one's nose to spite their own face. No one likes to stare across the show ring at a dog of the same family of dogs one has.

From the mid 70's to around the 80's-90's, the Maurice Carver line had gotten so popular. About all you saw was Carver dogs gong into Carver dogs. The Carver line had put a bad whooping on the Colby/Bullet/Old Family Red nose dogs in the Carolina's. Ole Loposay saw the writing on the wall and bought that Carver's (Shivar's/Loposay's) Buster dog to improve his dog yard. LOL

I too had been trying some various local Carolina dogs with little success. When We started using some of those Carver/Mayfield/Tudor/ Texas Tea blends. Things got much better. LOL Generally best to see different lines of popular show dogs perform against each other. Saves a lot of better breeding stock that way. Cheers

[Officially Retired]

I dont see anything wrong with going into a dog and using its littermate. I cant think of any situations where it has happened but i'm sure it has. Bullyson went into his own son. Match weights not names... unless its a big time name. Just my 2 cents.

I disagree with this.

To just "match weights" with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but "dog fighting" ...

If I have 2 super brothers, why would I devastate my gene pool by matching them into each other?

Even if 1 brother beats the other, it doesn't mean the other brother couldn't beat a dog that his better brother would lose to (A beats B ... B beats C ... C beats A ... happens all the time).

I would rather match both brothers into some other bloodline.

People who think like this are almost never breeders, just dog matchers (who have to buy their best dogs from breeders, precisely because they match and waste everything they have ...)

[BulldogConnection]

Half siblings but never have I known of littermates being hooked into each other.

[gotap_d]

I disagree with this.

To just "match weights" with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but "dog fighting" ...

If I have 2 super brothers, why would I devastate my gene pool by matching them into each other?

Even if 1 brother beats the other, it doesn't mean the other brother couldn't beat a dog that his better brother would lose to (A beats B ... B beats C ... C beats A ... happens all the time).

I would rather match both brothers into some other bloodline.

People who think like this are almost never breeders, just dog matchers (who have to buy their best dogs from breeders, precisely because they match and waste everything they have ...)

Very few people that are doing dogs care about the bloodlines they are going into in terms of trying to avoid a certain bloodline because of who bred what. You are clearly speaking from a breeders point of view and not a competitors pov. Those 2 perspevtives are different. If I made a breeding (just as a breeder) and 2 dogs from my breeding program were open at the same weight i would not want them to be matched into each other. On the other hand if I had a son off of mayday and someone who i didnt know or mind racing against had a littermate open at the same weight and everything lined up i wouldnt have the least bit of hesitation to hook into the littermate.

If you believe you have the best 40 and someone 2 states over believes his littermate bro is the best 40 in the world you are saying they should go into perhaps lesser dogs so they can avoid a loss?

[Officially Retired]

Very few people that are doing dogs care about the bloodlines they are going into in terms of trying to avoid a certain bloodline because of who bred what. You are clearly speaking from a breeders point of view and not a competitors pov. Those 2 perspevtives are different. If I made a breeding (just as a breeder) and 2 dogs from my breeding program were open at the same weight i would not want them to be matched into each other.

We agree.




On the other hand if I had a son off of mayday and someone who i didnt know or mind racing against had a littermate open at the same weight and everything lined up i wouldnt have the least bit of hesitation to hook into the littermate.

In this scenario, I also agree.




If you believe you have the best 40 and someone 2 states over believes his littermate bro is the best 40 in the world you are saying they should go into perhaps lesser dogs so they can avoid a loss?

Here is where you spiral down the drain.

There is no such thing as "the best 40-lb dog in the world."

There are too many 40-lb dogs on the planet to make that statement.

You can say you have the "winningest" 40-lb dog on the planet (if that's true), but winning 6 doesn't necessarily make the dog "the best" (just the winningest).

Therefore, if someone had the littermate brother to my badass dog, and he was a badass dog too, I would simply be rooting for that brother to win his matches, while I select other 40-lb dogs to beat with my dog.

As I said in paragraph 2 of my previous post, "To just 'match weights' with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but 'dog fighting' ..."

[gotap_d]

We agree.





In this scenario, I also agree.





Here is where you spiral down the drain.

There is no such thing as "the best 40-lb dog in the world."

There are too many 40-lb dogs on the planet to make that statement.

You can say you have the "winningest" 40-lb dog on the planet (if that's true), but winning 6 doesn't necessarily make the dog "the best" (just the winningest).

Therefore, if someone had the littermate brother to my badass dog, and he was a badass dog too, I would simply be rooting for that brother to win his matches, while I select other 40-lb dogs to beat with my dog.

As I said in paragraph 2 of my previous post, "To just 'match weights' with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but 'dog fighting' ..."

So while you are rooting for their littermate bro they decide to give you a call and say "hey jack i see your male is open, lets set the date and weight." Your response to them would be what?

[Johngilpat]

Honestly i really don't see a problem with matching the dogs together I was asking for a history lesson.To me there is really no difference in matching brother/brother or sister/sister than Bullyson to his son or when Aycart went against Tant, or any random Eli dog against another. I very well could be wrong just my opinion.

[Officially Retired]

So while you are rooting for their littermate bro they decide to give you a call and say "hey jack i see your male is open, lets set the date and weight." Your response to them would be what?

Simple: "WTF? I won't match into (my dog's) brother :-O

"There are hundreds of x-lb dogs out there, good luck with matching into them."

[EWO]

As I said in paragraph 2 of my previous post, "To just 'match weights' with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but 'dog fighting' ..."

To some it is all about weights. To some their loyalty lies in the desire to stand on top of the winning dog. To some standing on top of the winning dog is a better shake than preserving a family or perpetuating a bloodline. If that meant winning over the dog's brother or even the handler's brother, the loyalty is to winning, more so than dog fighting.

EWO

[Officially Retired]

To some it is all about weights. To some their loyalty lies in the desire to stand on top of the winning dog. To some standing on top of the winning dog is a better shake than preserving a family or perpetuating a bloodline. If that meant winning over the dog's brother or even the handler's brother, the loyalty is to winning, more so than dog fighting.
EWO

I understand that.

To some it's all about winning, to others it's all about having (and perpetuating) exceptional qualities in a group of dogs.

Ultimately, it is all about values.

IMO, those who hyper-focus on winning, placing this value above all else, are typically those with highly-suspect characters ... and are generally the most destructive individuals in the sport.

For example, such folks are prone rub the other dog (or sneak-in a foul in some other kind of way). "Winning is everything," is their justification.

Even the so-called "honest" competitors who place winning over all else seldom have any dogs live a long time on their yard (and they're seldom able to breed many good dogs of their own).

They waste more than they win.

It is inarguable that having 2 high-quality Champion brothers is better overall than having 1 Champion brother standing over his dead littermate.

The dead brother might have produced better; the live Champion might go sterile, or die in a yard accident, blah-blah.

Killing-off the competition is teamwork; killing off each other is stupidity. (Works that way in war, sports, etc.)

But there are people who will do that ... who are absolutely, totally into "themselves" and "winning ... to the exclusion of everything else ... and I don't trust such people as far as I could throw them.

Jack

[gotap_d]

As I said in paragraph 2 of my previous post, "To just 'match weights' with no regard for bloodline is to have zero loyalty to anything but 'dog fighting' ..."

To some it is all about weights. To some their loyalty lies in the desire to stand on top of the winning dog. To some standing on top of the winning dog is a better shake than preserving a family or perpetuating a bloodline. If that meant winning over the dog's brother or even the handler's brother, the loyalty is to winning, more so than dog fighting.

EWO

I'm with you on this post. Its just 2 different sides of the fence. All of those things scream competitor except preserving the family or perpetuating a bloodline part. We were using the great Ch vs great Ch littermate example. What if one of the dogs was a hard mouthed cur that ran through all of his schoolings. His littermate bro gets hooked into him and causes him to pack it in short order because he cant take qhat he dishes out. Thats preserving the bloodline. Keeping the inferior cur brother from ever being bred in the first place.

[FrostyPaws]

I'm not a "win at all costs" type competitor, nor am I a breeder of any particular line of dogs with my name on it. That being said, I wouldn't match a dog into his littermate. I've already seen both dogs, had my hands on both dogs, and I probably kept the dog I like best. If the brother can win against open competition, that's great, but don't expect me to hook into some dog I bred with his brother.

To Johngilpat, matching into the same bloodline isn't the same as matching into littermates. You can't really escape showing into dogs of similar lines, but you surely can escape showing into littermates.

[HAMMER49]

With people selling dogs from coast to coast it gets a little tough to know exactly what you're going into. Assume you set a date with a guy that is 3 or 4 states away. A mutual friend sets the stage, but a couple weeks in, you find out you are racing a half brother to what you're bringing. Both of you bought dogs from said breeder and like the results. Do you then pay the ff because of loyalties to the blood? Suppose its a litter mate. What then do you do?
Now as a breeder I would never do such a thing. I would also hope that no one whom has my animals would do so. That is the problem some run into when you make your animals commercial products. They go all over and they may or may not go into one another. Not everyone cares to perpetuate a bloodline, but you hope they do right by your blood.

[Officially Retired]

With people selling dogs from coast to coast it gets a little tough to know exactly what you're going into. Assume you set a date with a guy that is 3 or 4 states away. A mutual friend sets the stage, but a couple weeks in, you find out you are racing a half brother to what you're bringing. Both of you bought dogs from said breeder and like the results. Do you then pay the ff because of loyalties to the blood? Suppose its a litter mate. What then do you do?
Now as a breeder I would never do such a thing. I would also hope that no one whom has my animals would do so. That is the problem some run into when you make your animals commercial products. They go all over and they may or may not go into one another. Not everyone cares to perpetuate a bloodline, but you hope they do right by your blood.


The stage you set here is the classic example of what happens when people can't breed their own good dogs.

I would never "not know" what dog/line I was matching into :confused:

Although my matching experience was limited, there is no way I "didn't know" who/what I was matched into in the few matches I did have.

I spoke to all parties before the deal, I knew which dog (and what line) I was going into, etc.

IMO, anyone who has "someone else" hook a dog + weight for them is a moron ... with no control over anything.

I would NEVER (repeat, NEVER) match into an unknown person/dog ...

I would always talk to my opponents, and (just for conversation-sake) just talking dogs like dogmen, I would ask how my opponents' dogs were bred, what they'd done, etc. I always did this because I simply liked to talk dogs and was always interested to know what my opponents were bringing and why.

IMO, only someone who was brain-dead, and lacked basic human curiosity, would just "match weights" (like a robot), and would not care who/what they were going into ...
Not to mention the fact that anyone who doesn't first check who/what they were going into lacks basic self-preservation instincts (because not everyone who comes to dog deals is a dogman :shocked:)

In the few times I did match, I always tried to go into top-shelf people (known to be honest, good sports, and to bring top-shelf dogs).

I would never just let someone else randomly "blind-date" match me and my dog into "any idiot" with "any dog" my weight ...

Jack

[Officially Retired]

PS: The only way I would "blind date" match someone is if I was in a country like Japan, where the sport was legal, and where some kind of a ranking body existed, with the authority to mandate where/with whom my dog was to be matched.

But here, in the US, where the sport is ILlegal, with NO governing authority, no one on earth would be matching my dog except ME ... and I would be highly-selective as to who I went into.

Not to shot-pick, but to make sure I was going into a legit camp, that was known to match dogs fairly, with zero trouble/zero drugs, so it would simply be an honest, sporting match with as little risk and outside interference as possible. And I would not be matching into my own stuff. Ever.

[gotap_d]

The stage you set here is the classic example of what happens when people can't breed their own good dogs.

I would never "not know" what dog/line I was matching into :confused:

Although my matching experience was limited, there is no way I "didn't know" who/what I was matched into in the few matches I did have.

I spoke to all parties before the deal, I knew which dog (and what line) I was going into, etc.

IMO, anyone who has "someone else" hook a dog + weight for them is a moron ... with no control over anything.

I would NEVER (repeat, NEVER) match into an unknown person/dog ...

I would always talk to my opponents, and (just for conversation-sake) just talking dogs like dogmen, I would ask how my opponents' dogs were bred, what they'd done, etc. I always did this because I simply liked to talk dogs and was always interested to know what my opponents were bringing and why.

IMO, only someone who was brain-dead, and lacked basic human curiosity, would just "match weights" (like a robot), and would not care who/what they were going into ...
Not to mention the fact that anyone who doesn't first check who/what they were going into lacks basic self-preservation instincts (because not everyone who comes to dog deals is a dogman :shocked:)

In the few times I did match, I always tried to go into top-shelf people (known to be honest, good sports, and to bring top-shelf dogs).

I would never just let someone else randomly "blind-date" match me and my dog into "any idiot" with "any dog" my weight ...

Jack

It happenes all the time. People do get ducked and also have very good dogs that get ducked. A way around that is to not say the dogs name or way he's bred to the opponent. Hook a weight and set the ff high so you dont just back out on show night when great dog so and so is brought to the scales. Hooking names does 2 things. Sets the stage for someone to be ducked or sets the stage for what could be a great show ie sandman/buck or titere/balboa. Say you hooked into a well known and respected dogman and you did happen to know what dog he was going to use before you guys put up the ff and set a date. If his dog gets hurt midway through the keep is he not alowed to get a replacement without you knowing the exact breeding and name of the dog?

[EWO]

I have talked to the owner of 'most' every dog I ever did. Sometimes I knew the bloodline, sometimes I did not, but seldom did I care. I was preparing my squad to beat one dog on one night. My concerns were always his/her weight and the wash. The what and who never factored. Mostly because the entire get together is illegal so I never really looked for, or expected Ward Cleaver or Mr. Rogers when I got there. We made those preparations as well.

With that said, I have been places where I felt like I matched up, and a few times I felt like we matched down. I have been cheated by 'not knowing'. We have even been 'set up' by going blind as well. With good results at times.

It boils down to perspective. Maybe even personal preference. I don't think choosing to match brothers is wrong no more than choosing to not match brothers is right. If two people decide they have two dogs and they simply want to know, more power to them.

One of the truisms in these dogs is "You feed yours, I'll feed mine".

EWO

I can see the point of eliminating the gene pool and not ever knowing which brother would be the producer. And the competition and perpetuation of a family. But it falls under perspective. Odds are if it were to happen, then the other brother would be the competition. And if it factors into breeding the dogs, then maybe I beat you and your dog, and take one out of your breeding program. That is a serious competitive blow to a program.

[HAMMER49]

The stage you set here is the classic example of what happens when people can't breed their own good dogs.
Correct, but not all people like or enjoy raising pups. The breeding, whelping, and raising of pups just isn't for everyone. They would rather hear about the good one, take a look at him, purchase, and maximize his potential as a bulldog.

I would never "not know" what dog/line I was matching into :confused:
Here, I could care less. I wouldn't want to go into my own, but the only way to ensure you don't is to keep them to yourself. Unless specifically chasing one in particular, you aren't hooking into a bloodline, you are hooking into an individual.



IMO, anyone who has "someone else" hook a dog + weight for them is a moron ... with no control over anything.
Once again, that is your way. For instance, If I were to do that and my brother whom lives in another state sets the stage, I'm more than confident he wouldn't steer me wrong, and he'd have our best interest in mind. I may not know this person, but I would trust his judgement when orchestrating the deal. Not speaking of any Joe Blow, but someone I have full trust in.



In the few times I did match, I always tried to go into top-shelf people (known to be honest, good sports, and to bring top-shelf dogs).
I commend you for this, because that is the way it should be. Shoot for the best and don't pick on the locals you know are sub par competition. Sometimes, that requires a "semi blind date" or you may have crossed path before without a formal introduction.


Jack
Thanks